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Author Topic: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !  (Read 193034 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2008, 06:41:31 AM »
A thought that may be getting overlooked:

Seems all are looking only at static conditions. Butch's device works well as a form of field direction converter, from horizontal to vertical force.

But replace the PM's with a coil (as Dave has alluded to) and try pulsing them to move the washers up and down rapidly, and it becomes a whole different ball game. Hello Mr. Lenz. Those washers are like a shorted turn so if eddy currents flow in them, they're going to produce their own opposing field, and the movement is no longer "free".

Maybe one of Dave's "optimizations" was to change the washer into a broken ring, similar to a "C" clip. This will minimize flux and eddy currents and the resulting Lenz effects.

So before a "dynamic" application can be successful, more research and a proof of concept may be required. If someone has already done this, then great... Speak up please.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline infringer

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2008, 06:59:42 AM »
Speak up indeed I second that opinon design phase needs some good mesure ...

I dunno I have only tested the washers with magnets on a dowel so far and it works perfectly...

Beyond that the guess work moves on down the line anyone care to share...

PESE seemed to show an interesting motor expiriment on youtube... I would also like to know how this here links with the rest of this thread but might wanna take this into consideration...

-infringer-

Offline broli

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2008, 09:48:01 AM »
You could use this same idea to to make a gravity wheel.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2008, 09:48:01 AM »
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Offline newton2

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2008, 11:15:54 AM »
Hello Honoured OVERUNITY-FORUM-Profiles !

Thanks about Your various interesting contributions for to
woulddiscuss about the proposed Methods-Idea(the Topic)....
and aligned and modified similar Methods-Ideas  !!

This modest Reply is worded for to intend to be
meant especially for some Other OU-Researchers also
having performed with the further-in-my-text
brierfly explained "OU-functions-Pointes"....
such Other OU-Researchers will quickly "identify" my
Wordings compared to such Other OU-researchers´s
Own Respective  Researchings in similat OU-Methods....!!


Might I kindly briefly comment by these few Aspects-points :


*****
The Honoured Forum-Administrator DOES mention about a
functional circumstance :
namely Electrical-Currents-Coil interacting per H-fluxes/E-H-Electrodynamics
with some permeabilities-objects-materials........
SUCH DOES FUNCTION ,
IF/WHEN THERE IS PROPER CARE FOR
BOTH THEORIES & INTENDED AIM OF OVERUNITY
IN DESIGNING FOR AN OU-ACTING.....!!

THOUGH IN CARE FOR EVALUATING PER THEORIES:
The H-magnetical-Field/Flux from the permeabilities-
Objects interacting "back"-on/interacting on
the Electrical-Coil per "Inducing" EMF in the
Coil´s Turns, when the TOTAL H-Flux in the
Coil is ALTERED.....!!
(Thus then are NOT usable any every arbitrary Objects-Forms/
Sizes/Locations related to the Electrical Coil..
though rather some selected-for Situations of
Objects-sizes and the Way of moving such Objects
of permeabilities-properties)
YES....THe SELF-OSCILLATING PENDULUM of
such an Arrangement of H-magnetical-Fields-interactings
between Objects and Coil.....
WHAT of  FORCES ......WHAT of VELOCITY-VECTORS.....
WHAT of induced EMF back/into Coil´s Turns are involved.....

Though there are "only" some "few" critically optimized Design-Layouts
of such Methods........
really delicate to get the few procents of OU per "Proces-running-through"
to "feed" into the System for to either make more "swinging" or
to "extract" to surroundings some "Energy" for quite other Purposes !!

At least to briefly summarize to :
to realize about the 3-DIM-appearing H-Fields in the all of
Situation.........
Classical Electro-Magnetics and Magneto-Statics might suffice for
good realizations of optimized Layouts........
and the Common Classical ElectroDynamics about
Inducing EMF in Coil´s Turns per Altered H-flux in
the Effective Coil´s "Inner-Areas" can fairly easy be
realized about....yes,even one of the most easily
calculated Situations alæso appears to be one of
the most "OU-giving" Layouts to "should" use.......
(The LayOut appears by a calculative Maths-Method
somehow like "supposing for nill H-flux-altering in the
Coil´s Turns-Inner-Areas"-and-then-evaluate-about-
the-Objects-Paths-for-to-have-nill-alterings-of-H-flux....etc,etc !!)

Might I kindly briefly add ,
that once-upon some 26 Years back in Time I demonstrated
both in Theories and practical Layouts BOTH to the Honoured ADMINISTRATOR´s
REPLY´s-technical-Idea....AND to the "delicate" nearby-to.-EAchOthers
Permeabilities-Materials as being H-influenced from an Exterior Distant
other H-magnetical-Fierld !

And when Discussing about such Methods-Ideas as mentioned in The Topic
and in the associated continued-going-on-Replies,
THEN perhaps rather much of explanative Wordings have to be involved...
OF COURSE "BETTER" TO CLEARLY SKETCH.....
WELL-THEN,THOUGH THEN ALSO TO "GIVE-AWAY" ALL OF
THE RESEARCHINGS !!

------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Autumn !

And Thanks about Yourimportant idealistical Contributions to the Course of OU
per Your various many interesting important suggested Ideas & Methods &
Links & Articles,etc !

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2008, 03:02:01 PM »
I am kind of lost but ...

Here is my idea using yucca's design...

Imagine if you will a clock

Now think of the operation of this desgin.

Now imagine if you will the wheels of this design are simply driven by 1 load of current say a rechargeable battery running a floppy drive motor so the wheels are gears and the shaft of the motor is modified to turn these gears (The two wheels)

Instead of having say 1 magnet on each wheel let us have 12 magnets on each wheel.

Instead of the magnets influencing 1 piston have them influence 12 pistons at each position on the clock we will have a seperate piston.

These pistons each drive there own wheel and if we wished to delve further these wheels could turn yet more pistons the vastness of this is only limited to your imagination. We could expand wheels to the heavens and create a network of power generation all off of this single fanner magnet load in my mind this principal would work.

http://www.energyinfringer.com/fanner-magnetic-engine-free-at-last-free-at-last-t182.html

Nice idea for maximum power out for a certain sized mechanical device. Maybe If you had different number of pistons to mags then the cogging would be more evened out, so say 12 mag pairs on wheels (30deg spacing) and 11 pistons around (32.7 deg spacing), then they would all be firing at slightly different times, this would mean you could get away with a smaller flywheel weight. Then all 11 pistons could be geared back to the central mag wheel using nice free nylon gears, that design would give good torque.

Errr I dont get the design that stephan talks of using a cap and a coil hrmmm... I'm curious though...

Sounds interesting cap discharges to create electromagnet in coil? Then Coil fires piston for one cycle. The mechanical load then recharges the cap then the cap discharges again? Is this the deal?

Anyone care to eleaborate further on this idea... With the coils and the cap I know a picture may be a lot to ask but helpful.

Stephans idea uses electronic timing to make the flux change in the steel plates, when the coil is energised the plates will seperate, when the coil is turned off the plates will relax and not exert seperation force anymore. So by timing the coils correctly you could have the plates drive a crank and flywheel.

The good thing about using moving permanent magnets as opposed to an electronic setup is that the wheel itself could be surrounded by coils to extract the free energy, the wheel is then a generator in its own right.

The good thing about electronic setup would be the ability to have a microcontroller to give dynamic tuning so that as more load was applied then the timing could be altered to optimise power output.

Using pulsed coils would still require permanent mag in a seperate generator unit to extract the free energy so in my mind it seems a slightly more complex build. But of course if the effect is real then both methods should work fine. :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2008, 03:02:01 PM »
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Offline What_The_Flux

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Re: You should really take a look at this
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2008, 06:37:40 PM »
who cares who did what first? If the rings push out more energy than it takes to lower and raise the magnet then fun times for all. Everything else is just bullSh*t. To be honest this doesn't look any different than any other magnet jigga any of us have seen. Yes magnets store energy but really the only way to release that energy is by heat. Everything else is just transferring kinetic into whatever. Make love, not PMM's.

I guess I wouldn't have said it quite as coarsely as scraven, but I need help with the fundamentals of this concept. I have looked through this site and through the JLN site trying to find test data on the most basic experiments and underlying assumptions of this technique.

My initial bench tests using PMs and washers, as in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, leave me questioning why we should expect more work out than in.

When put between a strong magnetic field, the washers clearly separate, but I find the force keeping them apart to be relatively small, compared to the overall magnetic field in the center, and the force required to push the washers well into the flux field.

While it may feel like the same force to remove the magnets regardless of whether the washers are together or apart, it stands to reason that there will be some incremental difference because of the rearrangement of the flux field when the washers separate. My hypothesis is that this difference is equal to the force keeping the washers apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually tested the forces involved, and has shown that work out > work in at the most fundamental level of this experiment.

Offline Yucca

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Re: You should really take a look at this
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2008, 07:21:04 PM »
I guess I wouldn't have said it quite as coarsely as scraven, but I need help with the fundamentals of this concept. I have looked through this site and through the JLN site trying to find test data on the most basic experiments and underlying assumptions of this technique.

My initial bench tests using PMs and washers, as in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, leave me questioning why we should expect more work out than in.

When put between a strong magnetic field, the washers clearly separate, but I find the force keeping them apart to be relatively small, compared to the overall magnetic field in the center, and the force required to push the washers well into the flux field.

While it may feel like the same force to remove the magnets regardless of whether the washers are together or apart, it stands to reason that there will be some incremental difference because of the rearrangement of the flux field when the washers separate. My hypothesis is that this difference is equal to the force keeping the washers apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually tested the forces involved, and has shown that work out > work in at the most fundamental level of this experiment.

Dave Squires did note he witnessed and measured damn near symetrical in and out forces. My only fear at the moment is that the out force will be exerted over a greater distance as the steel is seperated and so it's attractiveness as a body as a whole may be greater and thus the work symmetry may not be quite as Dave is presuming.

I guess the simplest way to test for COP>1 is to try and build a bare bones self runner. Everything else we all hypothesise about (myself included) is just hot air.

I have some good magnets, I just need to find the time and materials and I will try and build.

NOTE:
You mentioned "the force required to push the washers well into the flux field" From my experiments I find that the mild steel washers are pulled into the flux field and the system will gain energy from that. You need to force them out, that's what costs you energy.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: You should really take a look at this
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2008, 07:21:04 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2008, 07:26:45 PM »
Yeah what the flux is going on here muah...

I have tried the basic design and to me it seems as if it may work if careful desgin is put into play...

Think of it this way I suppose if the plates were heavy we could use a hydrolic piston to turn a turbine...

But it appears as if the more heave the plates the more magnetic interaction needed weather electromagnetic or not...

I'm interested in seeing how yucca's idea would work with my twist 1 load 12 pistons that means if the unit spins only at 5 rpms the pistons would spin at 60rpms? Is this not more output then input? IDK it sounds possible or at at the least worth looking at!

While I wish harti would share a nice photo with us where you at stephan are you working on another undisclosed project or busy with home life?
We all love it when you jump in and share your ideas and give us some words of wisdom with all your expiramental expirences.
This is open source aint it so lets party like an open source community!

I dont think it is coincidence that optimistic begins with the same letter as overunity.
This is the state of mind one must keep lose or win!

Failure to do so will result in missing a small key point in achiving our common goal. It is a lot more thought and work but no one said it was easy.

Take nothing for granted test and test again.

-infringer-


Offline What_The_Flux

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Re: You should really take a look at this
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2008, 09:06:54 PM »
I guess the simplest way to test for COP>1 is to try and build a bare bones self runner. Everything else we all hypothesise about (myself included) is just hot air.

NOTE:
You mentioned "the force required to push the washers well into the flux field" From my experiments I find that the mild steel washers are pulled into the flux field and the system will gain energy from that. You need to force them out, that's what costs you energy.

Good comments, all.

As Yucca said, I also do find an attractive force as the washers enter the field, but then I feel a repulsive force as they go further towards the center, where the spreading effect is maximized.

I think before spending much time and dollars on a complete 'self-runner' prototype, I will try to obtain some force data using my dynamometer. Unfortunately my equipment and tool building is limited. I was really hoping someone with a real lab had already taken some measurements. It was stated earlier in this thread that the separating force was 'much greater' than the insertion force. This is what I think we need to verify. So far I don't see that degree of force. Anyone who can point me to such experiments, please post it here. Thanks.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: You should really take a look at this
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2008, 09:06:54 PM »
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Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2008, 02:22:18 PM »
OK...After dreaming a little more about I've come up with a better idea, it's MUCH simpler to build.

You will notice in the diagram that the long arced stator steels are all sloping outward slightly, so the seperation force will cause the rotor steels to constantly move anticlockwise as they try and seperate from the stator steels.

I will try and build an initial prototype with one rotor set and one stator steel, I have gutted a ballraced computer fan and it has yielded a VERY free running rotating platform.

The diagram shows 5 rotor sets and 4 stator steels, this will greatly reduce cogging. Also the motor in the diagram would run anticlockwise (provided the effect yields cop>1).

(http://69.10.148.115/yucca/yucca_steel_fanner_motor_2.jpg)

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2008, 03:11:02 PM »
Hi Yucca !

last drawing might work but it is somewhat beyond or bellow original idea so there is big question mark.

First drawing you made has much chance to work.

but you need TWO "Lafonte HARMONICS" ( IIIII ), constructed on this principal:

while one magnet pair ENTERS first IIIII , the other magnet pair LEAVES other IIIII (at a same angle and distance)

that way net IN energy is only friction. OUTPUT is pure strenght of magnets. ;)

Wiz

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2008, 03:11:02 PM »
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Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2008, 03:43:24 PM »
Hi Yucca !

last drawing might work but it is somewhat beyond or bellow original idea so there is big question mark.

First drawing you made has much chance to work.

but you need TWO "Lafonte HARMONICS" ( IIIII ), constructed on this principal:

while one magnet pair ENTERS first IIIII , the other magnet pair LEAVES other IIIII (at a same angle and distance)

that way net IN energy is only friction. OUTPUT is pure strenght of magnets. ;)

Wiz

Hi Wiz,

Thanks for perusing my design.

So are you saying that it would be better to have two stator steels and two rotor sets staggered so that when one set comes together the other set are going apart?

I think that the 5:4 ratio would work well because every interacting set will be slightly out of phase, so when you integrate the forces through one revolution you will get a smoother torque distribution. Also you would get less radial bearing loading and thus longer device lifetime.

You also state that this second design is not as optimal as the first, could you please tell me why you think that?

All the best, Yucca.

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2008, 04:06:54 PM »

- It's different in a way that here I can see possible "stuck points" unless very briliantly balanced (like in any only magnet setup)
(come to think of it looks like few series SMOTS rotating...but with difference, ORTHOGONAL plates - three flux paths !?!)...
now i stand corrected You Should definitely try this last design - this is something new.

- whit pure LaFonte "stretching" stators (I call it HARMONICS). I don't see stuck points

simple as that...no need to go further

Wiz

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2008, 04:31:38 PM »
and Yucca !

5:4 = (magnet pairs):(Lafonte "stertching" stators)...should definitely work - if properly designed

I made simmilar setup trying to replicate Francouver Interference disk Generator. this was wonderfull project but I stoped at version 1
which proved that cogging can be completely avoided although High flux from magnets was applied. as soon
as I removed only one magnet cogging was tremendous and rotor couldn't be moved by hand.
Talking about very strong forces balanced. Generation of el current was weak cause non overlaping area was to narrow so magnets
fluxes bended and closed on two near perm conductive areas....this thing allso should be implemented here and use wider area between
two magnetic pairs. flux doesn't go straight line it changes vektor if allowed.


easier to say than construct it...but can be done

wiz




Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2008, 06:04:19 PM »
OK Wiz, I think I see what you are saying, thankyou.

We now only need to verify that using the steel fanner effect the seperation force of the steel plates exhibits a lenz violation due to its perpendicular nature. If it does then some of the seperation force of the steel is for free and system COP>1.

The easiest way to verify is to build a motor, I will now try and build and I hope for the magic to happen. :)

All the best, Yucca


 

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