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Author Topic: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !  (Read 192982 times)

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2008, 06:14:14 PM »
Sorry, I missed this message from you, simply because of your odd expressions. Not being rude, I'm just telling you.

But I can tell you that your saying is not true for a fast moving motor.
The discs will not have the time to shift position simply due to sheer inhertia.
And if you make the discs to thin they not have the power to perform any useful work.
Least but not last, the mechanical solution to extract power from repelled fanners will consume any excess energy.

In my book there's still no free lunch here. But feel free to build it and surprise me. Hopefully I'm wrong in this matter.
You see, I want overunity as well. Just like anybody here. I'm not against it you know, but I have to question solutions that doesn't seem to add up.

sorry... Now I didn't see your post

who said it has to be fast it has to do complete MECH work on given load(weight),and then move on
Only with two fanners and one magnet pair there is allmost 1input:10output for OU
so lot's of free lunch allredy with linear setup.

I agree we need something efficient to concentrate multiphased fanners...

Wiz

So You Saw but can not see it through yet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Ergo

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2008, 06:42:35 PM »
Why don't you build a straight track of washers on a stick.
Along these washers you can easily move two magnets being firmly mounted to keep them from getting stuck to the washers.
It would be enough with twenty piles of washers.

Then test how easily you can move the magnets along the track. Try at different speeds.
Then place some heavy lead or perhaps a non metalic compound on top of each pile to simulate work being extracted. It must be really heavy.
Move the magnets along the track again at variuos speeds and feel the difference.
If there is no force difference I find it very interesting. Then you might have something here.
Until then I rest my case.


drsquires

  • Guest
Orthogonal magnetic force
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2008, 09:29:26 PM »
This is in reply to the suggestion that this effect "gets around Lenz".  It doesn't really "get around it".
Lenz's law applies to changing magnetic fields.  If the field in an EM coil is unchanged by the motion
of the steel elements there can be no Lenz back reaction.  The Lenz reaction is an inertial reaction
or resistance to a changing field.  If there is no change, there is no Lenz back reaction.  The evidence for this
will be found in the fact that the coil inductance is unchanged over the full range of allowable motion
for the orthogonal solenoid structure.

FEMM simulation shows no change in inductance out to the 4th significant digit.
All other systems of solenoids or motors exhibit a change in inductance due to the changing
reluctance of the magnetic circuit for a given excitation level of current.

If the current is held constant and the moving parts of the system are moved the inductance changes.
This changes the magnetic field causing a Lenz inertial back reaction resistance to the change.

So the more accurate description is that there is no Lenz reaction because there is no change in
inductance.  There is nothing to cause a Lenz reaction.  It isn't "gotten around".  It just isn't there
because the magnetic circuit sees no change in reluctance or inductance.

Regards,
Dave Squires

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Orthogonal magnetic force
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2008, 09:29:26 PM »
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drsquires

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50:1 OU claim
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2008, 09:42:30 PM »
"You ramble, wizkycho.
Cogging has nothing to do wether a device is overunity or not. Can anyone please explain precisely how this device is supposed to be 50:1 overunity.
In my opinion there is nothing remarkable going on. The discs are naturally repelled from each other when a field is applied.
The magnetic field source can come from moving permanent magnets or static electromagnets but there is always a cost involved.
And there is nothing speaking for the cost being less when using discs compared to a ordinary solenoid with a center hole that is pushing/pulling a rod magnet when energized.
It is exactly the same principle. As long as no one can justify the 50:1 claim I will reject this as another wishful thinking."

Well, it's not wishful thinking.  It's just a bit on the high side. 
The range would be in the 20:1 to 50:1 range for an EM version using coil excitation. 

Here is how you get there...

1. The inductance is unchanged in the coil regardless of what the expansion elements do.
2. This allows reactive power excitation at some resonant frequency.
3. Losses will be copper resistive losses, iron hysteresis losses, friction, and windage.
4. IF those losses are managed well and kept in the 2% to 5% range then you get the case where the
    resonant drive circuit only need make up for those losses.  So you have a case where the OUT/IN
    ratio can be between 50:1 and 20:1. 

So one could conceivably have an efficiency or COP in that range.  This means converting reactive power
to real power with very little loss.  Do it badly and you could easily be under 10:1 COP or less.

Dave Squires

Butch

  • Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, simple demostration
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2008, 09:48:21 PM »
This concept is simply amazing. Its so logical that I am amazed that no one has thought of this before. I wish you luck with all your work Butch :)

Raui,
Working with fanner magnets in moving sheet steel as a teenager was my inspiration. We are putting together a super simple test device to make overunity obvious to everyone. Anyone can put it together from radio shack parts for a few dollars. We are holding release of full scale devices for a short period.
Will post super simple proof of overunity device.
Thanks,
Butch

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, simple demostration
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2008, 09:48:21 PM »
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drsquires

  • Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2008, 09:52:53 PM »
For those who didn't "get it" in my last post...you get the COP=50  and 20 values this way
50=1/0.02 
and
20 = 1/0.05

I didn't show these simple calculations and should have...sorry.
This is because it's assumed that 95% to 98% of the energy is returned to the resonant drive circuit.

I hope this clears things up on how you get these high COP numbers. 
These numbers are perfectly realistic for a well designed resonant drive circuit.

Cheers,
Dave Squires

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2008, 10:00:24 PM »
Why don't you build a straight track of washers on a stick.
Along these washers you can easily move two magnets being firmly mounted to keep them from getting stuck to the washers.
It would be enough with twenty piles of washers.

Then test how easily you can move the magnets along the track. Try at different speeds.
Then place some heavy lead or perhaps a non metalic compound on top of each pile to simulate work being extracted. It must be really heavy.
Move the magnets along the track again at variuos speeds and feel the difference.
If there is no force difference I find it very interesting. Then you might have something here.
Until then I rest my case.

Hi Ergo,

Good idea to test for free work in the moving permanent mag version.

I´ve thought about just how to do it so that you can measure work out of the seperation and also check for work taken from the system overall, here´s my idea based on your initial concept:

Build a one degree of freedom swinging pendulum:
A rigid stick with a bearing at the top and an upside down U of steel attached to the swinging end. On each inside face of the U place a magnet so the 2 magnets are in attraction.

On the table directly beneath the pivot point secure a smooth dowel with a mild steel washer array on it. Place a liftable weight on the top washer. The weight should be configured with a ratchet so that once lifted it stays up and the washers are allowed to fall back. This enables you to extract energy (potential energy of lifted weight) from the  system.

Now swing the pendulum by lifting to an exact height and letting go. 2 types of swings should be conducted:

Swing type 1:
The washers should all be taped together to stop them seperating.

Swing type 2:
The tape should be removed and the washers allowed to raise the ratcheted weight.

If after each swing type the the pendulum swung out the other side just as far then the perpendicular work done by the seperating washers would appear to be for free.

Note that if it doesn´t swing out as far then COP could still be over unity but one would need to calculate work in and work out by taking height and weight measurements of pendulum and lifted weight and calculating the input and output potential energies involved.

Yucca.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2008, 10:00:24 PM »
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Offline AbbaRue

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #112 on: October 10, 2008, 10:35:04 PM »
When I place metal washers between 2 very strong neo. magnets I get the washers separating,
but it takes a lot less energy to compress the washers then it would take to pull the two neo's apart.
I don't understand were this extra energy is supposed to reside?
Unless two of these setups can be created so a resonance effect takes place and the
demagnetization of one coil helps magnetize the other. (Using back emf)

I was looking at a 2 cylinder electromagnetic motor concept.
Energize one horseshoe magnet while de-energizing the other.
Like a teeter toter. While you raise one side it helps lower the other quicker then gravity.
Now if something like this can work so very little energy is lost between the 2 units then OU may be possible.
Just input an initial charge to get the system running and then resonance keeps it going with little loss.
The small amount of loss can be restored from the engine running some type of generator. 

But the energy of separation between the metal plates is much less then the magnetic pull of the electromagnets.
The magnets I used could easily lift a kitchen chair off the floor but compressing the washers
takes a lot less weight then that of a kitchen chair. 
A good experiment would be to build an electromagnetic version of this
and place weights on it to see how much it takes to compress the metal plates to say half there distance apart.
Then record how much wattage it takes to support that amount of weight.
Should be an easy setup for most following this forum.
Then try building 2 of these units and see if you can harness the back emf of one to energize the other while the magnetic field collapses. 
Keep the same weight on each unit as proof of output.
If this works we have a possible new energy source.


Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2008, 11:21:14 PM »
When I place metal washers between 2 very strong neo. magnets I get the washers separating,
but it takes a lot less energy to compress the washers then it would take to pull the two neo's apart.
I don't understand were this extra energy is supposed to reside?

Hi AbbaRue,

If you pull the magnets apart then the energy taken to do the pulling can be got back because the magnets can then be allowed to go back together and that could be fed back into the system.

Imagine two springy plastic rulers stood on end and fixed to the tabletop using brackets. At the top of each ruler is a flat magnet, each magnet in attraction. Now imagine that you pull the mags apart and let go, the whole system will oscillate like a tuning fork. Only damped by air friction and eddy currents in the mags, the system will oscillate and come to rest following a normal decay curve.

Now if the effect is real then the rulers will decay at the same rate even if you load the washers as they seperate and fall back together (i.e. the magnets do not see the loading of the seperating steel) . In theory the energy obtained from the seperating steel could be fed back to mantain the rulers oscillations and it would self run.

edit:
Obviously rulers would not be ideal, too much air resistance, better to use 2 piano wire pairs instead.

Best, Yucca.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2008, 11:21:14 PM »
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Offline AbbaRue

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #114 on: October 11, 2008, 06:24:45 AM »
Are you using permanent magnets or electromagnets? 

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #115 on: October 11, 2008, 09:43:43 AM »
Hi Yucca and all !

...My simple animation revealed following

In a beggining of this topic I gave an advice that is not neccessery to follow in this setup (mentioning Francouer Interference Disk Gen).
It is not neccessery to have large space from first magnet pair to next but just a width of one fanner stack (means every other stack is overlapped with magnet pair). cause complete flux of one magnet pair will go directly through closest fanner stack closing on magnet. Two fanner stacks should be separated by an air gap 1mm wide and that is sufficient (and not causing sticky spots), to be sure flux wan't "touch" neighbour stacks - it will rather go through currently overlaping stuck cause it is never over saturation knee. Balancing is now automatic no need to pay additional attention on angles entering - exiting (1mm air gap will not cause drag back or cogg cause magnet flux can bend that much).
Fanner stacks must be quadratic but with slightly rounded corners. Otherwise, tricky balancing should be done.

Wiz


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #115 on: October 11, 2008, 09:43:43 AM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #116 on: October 11, 2008, 09:58:38 AM »
Hi AbbaRue,

If you pull the magnets apart then the energy taken to do the pulling can be got back because the magnets can then be allowed to go back together and that could be fed back into the system.

Imagine two springy plastic rulers stood on end and fixed to the tabletop using brackets. At the top of each ruler is a flat magnet, each magnet in attraction. Now imagine that you pull the mags apart and let go, the whole system will oscillate like a tuning fork. Only damped by air friction and eddy currents in the mags, the system will oscillate and come to rest following a normal decay curve.

Now if the effect is real then the rulers will decay at the same rate even if you load the washers as they seperate and fall back together (i.e. the magnets do not see the loading of the seperating steel) . In theory the energy obtained from the seperating steel could be fed back to mantain the rulers oscillations and it would self run.

edit:
Obviously rulers would not be ideal, too much air resistance, better to use 2 piano wire pairs instead.

Best, Yucca.

Although I can allmost see what you propose, and its briliant - that way We would be able to mount linear generator (magnet in a coil) and have supersimple infinite Energy source...but should keep up the oscilations.
Can You make some picture...

Wiz

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2008, 10:36:42 AM »
Are you using permanent magnets or electromagnets? 


I'm only using permanent mags at the moment and all my ideas on this thread are for permanent mags.

I do want to start doing this stuff with electromags and signal generator. I am waiting for some P-Channel FETs in the mail to start with that.

Yucca.

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2008, 10:40:40 AM »
Although I can allmost see what you propose, and its briliant - that way We would be able to mount linear generator (magnet in a coil) and have supersimple infinite Energy source...but should keep up the oscilations.
Can You make some picture...

Wiz

I will try and make an animated GIF tonight Wiz.

I think I have also now worked out the simple lever arrangement to feedback the seperation force and to keep the mags in oscillation.

Yucca.

Offline 4Tesla

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2008, 09:28:36 PM »
Cool Yucca.. can't wait to see your animation!  I believe that it has to use permanent magnets as an electromagnet takes too much energy.

Jason

 

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