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Hydrogen energy => Water arc energy systems => Topic started by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 12:01:38 AM

Title: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 12:01:38 AM
Hi :D everyone,

I believe I have found an efficient way to change water to a fuel.

See Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE

                                                 This page has been updated October 8th 2008 and is titled:

                                                                   "Ganga Shakti - Water Power"

If this is the first time you are viewing this page I ask you to share this link immediately to everyone you have in your email address list and ask them to do the same no matter what you or they may think. We need to give this back to the World a.s.a.p.

Next I ask everyone to stop experimenting if you can and help with this, since I believe it is the one of the most promising real effect at this time (that I know of) that is fully shared on the Internet. Nothing will be hidden here. You can view the development of everything that is going on.

Now let me give you some background on this. For a couple of years now I was a member of a Yahoo Group called: WaterFuel1978.
At this group user name: s1r9a9m9 claims to have one of his cars working on water and says that one of the parts he uses to do this is an inverter and also some relays. However, no one to date have been able to replicate it and the site dates back since, Jul 30, 2005. On or around June 25th, 2008 s1r9a9m9 posted 2 videos on youtube to show a 18HP one cylinder engine running on water. The video is quite convincing, however he is hiding the important parts to make this work.

After seeing the videos I posted this message to s1r9a9m9 at the WaterFuel1978 Group:

Dear S1R, thank you for the 2 videos which now would make it very hard to say it does not work.

However it is a sad day to think of the years that passed by and our World is getting wasted by these greedy fossil fuel controllers and
to think that all this time you have been a chosen one to put the pieces together that could change all that... and what do you do with it, hide it, just as they do.

All gift of knowledge comes from one place and it is testing man to see what he does with it. All that is good to help keep balance is
meant to be shared with all...just as the structure of the Universe keeps balance and is giving. When one stops the flow that would be
good for Billions of others I would think of that as a great sin and your life could be in much greater danger than you think. All who have tried to control their inventions that could of made our World a better place have lost their life over it or have been bought out just to hide the information. I'm sure Stanley Meyer would do it differently if he had a second chance but it's too late when your dead and the knowledge is lost.

Hiding things will not protect you, sharing will...since you will be welcomed in all the homes of America and the World as a Hero. Now
that is protection if you think you need it. By hiding things you are doing exactly as they want and that makes a small target for them since it is not spread out and can be easily extinguished, 99.99% of the World won't even know it has happen.

You chose your destiny. But I am here to help you in every way I humanly can and I think many others who are here are ready to do the
same. I hope this time we can do it all together, united we stand, divided we

I have hope.

Luc

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I have believed for many years that water could be used as a fuel.

The next day I posted the message to s1r9a9m9 I started a replication attempts of his system and while working on it I accidentally shorted the DC side of the bridge rectifier and saw a flame spark which made me think of plasma. So I tried many different circuit possibilities to try and incorporate this short circuit effect when the high voltage spark jumped the gap. After 2 days of work I came up with a very simple circuit which is posted at the bottom of this page. I had to work hard to make the circuit so simple since our minds think something like this should be complicated, so don't come to the conclusion that something so simple will not work until you try it. At the botton is my original circuit but I updated the diode part number and the quantity thanks to user name: callanan's added his improvement ideas. His circuit is more complex than mine and could work for you if you are advanced enough in electronics but one way or the other I would recommend (if you want to replicate) that you start with the simple circuit first and after seeing the effect you can add the extra components if you wish. Please note that I believe both circuits give the same effect.

Also, please note that most Spark plug have a resistance in them which needs to be removed. In many models of Spark Plugs you can remove the resistor by heating up the ceramic around the top electrode to unlock the seal and then unscrew it and remove the resistor and spring and replace it with a piece of 10 gauge copper wire or 3 pieces of 14 gauge regular home copper wiring to complete the contact. Make sure the wire you added touches the top electrode just before it sets when you are screwing it back in. Here is a Video Demo of a resistor being removed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0  The gap of the plug can be standard but you could play with it after a successful replication and see what it does. We will be testing all these things and updating this page with the most current information, so keep checking this page for updates.

A note about the video above. I realized only after seeing the video that you cannot see the complete flame that I was seeing when doing the demonstration video. There is an orange red glow around the spark when the water explodes which the video does not pick-up. Also take note that not much water is needed to see the glow and you can kill the effect if you add too much water mist.

Thank you for looking and please remember to Share.

Luc

New, added July 26th

Thanks to the great work of Ashtweth of http://www.panaceauniversity.org/ we now have a compilation of all the shared finding in one .pdf file
Click this link to download: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf

New, added August 22nd
Below is the circuit description that I am testing at this time and the Schematic is (in black) at the bottom of the page. It was drawn for me by user name: Aka from a hand drawn circuit I posted. Thanks Aka for your help ;)

The differences from the original circuit is this one has a Charge Inductor, a smaller uf value Non Polarized Capacitor and 1N5408 1000 volt rated diodes.

It is more advanced and if you are a beginner, I would recommend the original circuit and don't bother using an inverter. Just use your home power from the outlets.

Description:

The Full Wave Bridge Rectifier is a standard off the self item 400v  5 amps or more if you wish.

The Air Core Charge Inductor I made is from a primary of a MOT that I cut out and recoiled it. The Inductor center opening is 38mm. The O.D. is 60mm and the width is 40mm. From what I can tell the Mag Wire is about 14 Gauge. The coils DC resistance is 0.4 Ohms and measures 2.23mH on my inductance meter.

The Relay is an Automotive 12vdc relay rated 40A/30A which is SPDT . I did not show the relay coil in the diagram since the black marker I was using is too large to show details. The relays rest position is on the bridge to cap. I use a 12vdc battery to activate the relay coil to discharge the cap to the coil and diode string.

The Capacitor is 6.8uf 250 AC (non polarized). I go this this cap out an old heavy wood 30" color TV unit. I don't know why but this cap takes the best peak charges and gives an amazing bang for its uF size ???  My capacitance meter says it is 6.9uf but gives the same kind of bang as my 22uf 350v polarized, which I also check on meter and it is actually 26uf. I don't understand that.

The Coil is an Automotive Coil made by Accel part on. 8140C. The Primary DC resistance is 1.3 Ohms and measures 6.46mH on inductance meter. Secondary DC resistance is 9.10 K Ohms and I cannot measure H on my meter.

The Diodes are a string of 6 of 1N5408 in series and are rated at 1000 volts at 3A each.

The Spark Plug used for spark gap is from a 3HP gas lawn mower engine that will be used for testing the circuit. Modifications to the plug are: I cut off the J electrode and also filed down the center electrode so both are at same level. With this mod. the Plug now has a 3mm gap. The plugs internal resistor has been removed and replaced with 3 pcs. of correct length 14 gauge solid copper wire to complete the contact.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is calanan's more advanced circuit to use with a signal generator:

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5024.0;attach=24456)

This is my circuit which is updated and very simple to build and can be operated with a switch or a relay:
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 27, 2008, 12:10:28 AM
GREAT JOB LuC!!!! ;D

Whats the part number or value for the bridge? I wanna try too  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 12:33:04 AM
GREAT JOB LuC!!!! ;D

Whats the part number or value for the bridge? I wanna try too  ;D

Hi xbox hacker, It does not matter as long as it can take about 10 amps.

I got to go for some hours, so I won't be available till late tonight E.S.T.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: futuristic on June 27, 2008, 12:51:19 AM
Great work!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 27, 2008, 01:09:10 AM
Great  job Luc

 :)

I am  not sure that I  agree  with you that  radiant  energy is involved .
I do  think   that   your  system is  VERY efficient and  may  be the way to go .

can you  post a  drawing  of  your circuit ?   


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 27, 2008, 01:27:26 AM
OK...back to the topic![/i]
Luc: have you abandoned the in-circuit coil idea?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on June 27, 2008, 01:55:17 AM
Hey mate, very good work- like i said in your video.  great camera work and excelent explanations for such a simple circuit.  In my tests i found that the HVR-1x microwave diode didnt completely block the HV from the coil (being run by a jacobs ladder kit) and because of this i was weary of connecting it to my AC generator.

Once again- good work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Bob Smith on June 27, 2008, 04:48:46 AM
Nice work, Luc. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the simplicity of this kind of circuit.  Bedini and Bearden talk about the downword side of a short, sharp voltage spike as being capable of drawing radiant energy into a circuit. You seem to have achieved this phenomenon.

B
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on June 27, 2008, 07:06:46 AM
GREAT WORK Luc!

I can hardly wait to see the schematic diagrams of this circuit and parts list.  I am also on the Yahoo group as I am sure many others here are also.  I have 2 donor cars now.  The first is a '74 Chevy Blazer with virtually the same engine that S1R's El Camino has (350 with standard 4 banger and interchangeable jets).  My 2nd donor car is a '98 Ford Windstar with all the pollution and computer crap on it.

The team I have assembled will post every success, failure, trial and tribulation to this forum as well as on the Yahoo group forum.  Making all this as PUBLIC DOMAIN as possible is what will keep everyone safe and secure without any threats from the "MIB" as they are called on the Yahoo forum.

Our goal is to get the Blazer working first, gather all the necessary data that the newer car's computer systems receive from their various sensors, and then either design circuits to fool the computer or hopefully find someone skilled in the art to be able to reprogram the computer altogether.

I will keep everyone posted!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on June 27, 2008, 07:10:34 AM
Luc,  try running more than 1 hvr-1x diode in parallel to allow more dc current flow to the plug, those diodes are 12kv 0.5a.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Haliburton on June 27, 2008, 07:21:30 AM
WOW look great!!!!!!! 8)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 27, 2008, 08:05:45 AM
Good job Luc.  8)

 As far as it being the same as mdbreedi's Cold Fusion Plasma 9 video, I have to disagree. Yours is more controllable as well as the heat is not as hot and therefore makes for a better design.

 We have to keep the heat down when burning HHO due to the intensity of the heat that HHO can produce. The heat will melt the pistons but your setup doesn?t seam to be that hot and therefore may just be what we need.

 I would like to see the results while under compression. A good test motor maybe something like a weed eater or lawn mower engine.

 All in all, congratulations and thank you for sharing your experiment and details of your experiment with us.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 08:56:45 AM
Luc.

Have you checked out the effect of putting the small coil you were using previously, (Saw all videos)
between the HV diode and the Plug.  I think you will be VERY happy and surprised with the result.

Just a thought.

As a little "Correction", what you are using IS a capacitive discharge ignition. 

Art.
Hi Loner, thanks for looking. I will try your suggestion above and introduce the coil at that location, however I would be surprised if it makes a better reaction but one never knows. I will post if it give better results.
 I also realize that I am using a capacitor discharge to get the coil to fire but that is not what is making this spark so strong but if you can get an automobile coil to fire like I am showing with a 150uf cap charged to 105vdc I would like to see that. Mainly why I was saying this is not a cap discharge making the spark so strong is that there is a topic going on this forum that is using a 330uf 175vdc cap discharge in addition to the HV coil discharge to make this kind of spark.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 09:11:53 AM
Nice work, Luc. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the simplicity of this kind of circuit.  Bedini and Bearden talk about the downword side of a short, sharp voltage spike as being capable of drawing radiant energy into a circuit. You seem to have achieved this phenomenon.

B
Hi Bob Smith, thanks for looking and your positive comment, you know it ;)

Luc

GREAT WORK Luc!

I can hardly wait to see the schematic diagrams of this circuit and parts list. I have 2 donor cars now. My 2nd donor car is a '98 Ford Windstar with all the pollution and computer crap on it.

I will keep everyone posted!

Regards,
Geo
Hi Geo, thanks for looking also. A schematic will come but I am asking for help to do a good looking one, so if anyone can help please do it as best you can from looking at the video and I will correct it if needed. I need to see support from everyone here, the schematic is not complicated.

Hey I also have a 98 Ford Windstar.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 09:27:50 AM
Luc,  try running more than 1 hvr-1x diode in parallel to allow more dc current flow to the plug, those diodes are 12kv 0.5a.
Hi ninjadaniel, thanks for looking and the suggestion, I will try it.

Luc

WOW look great!!!!!!! 8)
Hi Haliburton, thank you also for looking.

Luc

Good job Luc.  8)

 As far as it being the same as mdbreedi's Cold Fusion Plasma 9 video, I have to disagree. Yours is more controllable as well as the heat is not as hot and therefore makes for a better design.

 We have to keep the heat down when burning HHO due to the intensity of the heat that HHO can produce. The heat will melt the pistons but your setup doesn?t seam to be that hot and therefore may just be what we need.

 I would like to see the results while under compression. A good test motor maybe something like a weed eater or lawn mower engine.

 All in all, congratulations and thank you for sharing your experiment and details of your experiment with us.
Hi nightlife, glad to see you here  ;D. You are so very correct  ;) this is not like anything out there. I just go a 4 stroke lawn mower motor from a friend. I will be testing it this weekend.

Stay tuned :D

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on June 27, 2008, 10:24:27 AM
Here is what s1r says about the gotoluc video:
Quote
I watched it and he almost has the right
design. the only part is the second out put. it needs to go through a
coil with two windings through a main winding, this will boost the
voltage to the plug by about 80 percent more. The 110 volts needs to
boost the HV discharge more than what he has it doing. I am going to
post the parts but I want to find the comon parts that are used on
all the engines that are being tested before I do. The relay I first
used has two coils in it, we looked for them for a long time even as
we designed our own to test. NO you wont find F.A.S.T. Rescearch &
Development listed as a company name or any where other than on the
front of this group page. It is just a bumch of people got together
and do stuff that betters the way we live.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:03:00 AM
Here is what s1r says about the gotoluc video:
Hi vlindos, thanks for looking :) and posting the coment s1r wrote. Here it is again and below are two other messages he has sent me.

Luc

I watched it and he almost has the right
design. the only part is the second out put. it needs to go through a
coil with two windings through a main winding, this will boost the
voltage to the plug by about 80 percent more. The 110 volts needs to
boost the HV discharge more than what he has it doing. I am going to
post the parts but I want to find the comon parts that are used on
all the engines that are being tested before I do. The relay I first
used has two coils in it, we looked for them for a long time even as
we designed our own to test.

Nice set up. If you use a coil with two windings going through a main coil to boost the out put spark up about 10 times what you have now you will have a system almost like mine. You can test your set up on a weed eater motor and know for sure that you have it. I like people like you who dont wait on slow folks like me. Thanks for the video and keep on sparking.

S1r9a9m9
OH yes ware some dark glasses before watching the sparks, dont hurt you eyes.

S1r9a9m9
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:28:41 AM
Dear nightlife, thanks for your participation and enthusiasm. I would like to keep the posts at this time to the point we are at so not to confuse newcomers with too many things so I deleted your post. I think we are not ready for an injector system yet, unless you have it working?

What I think we should focus on at this time is replication, then everyones input for improvements and then testing it on a simple engine.

I have received an email from someone who wants to do the Schematic, so that will be posted soon.

Stay tuned

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: librame on June 27, 2008, 02:59:52 PM
Hi Bob Smith, thanks for looking and your positive comment, you know it ;)

Luc
Hi Geo, thanks for looking also. A schematic will come but I am asking for help to do a good looking one, so if anyone can help please do it as best you can from looking at the video and I will correct it if needed. I need to see support from everyone here, the schematic is not complicated.

Hey I also have a 98 Ford Windstar.

Luc


Looks like you got one outta the park, Luc. nice!

Here is a rough schematic from what I could gather out of the vid. Its a bit cartoonish, but its a start. I don't know if I got all the diode sizes right, but it was all done in paint so it will be easy to fix.

Cheers!


Added by gotoluc: Circuit is now added to first page. Thank you and great job.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on June 27, 2008, 03:59:24 PM
@gotoluc: Great stuff Luc! :D
Once again I am impressed. ;D
Keep up the good work, I'll drop in every now and then ;)
:)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 27, 2008, 04:32:37 PM
Quote
Once  the  high  voltage  jumps the   gap in the spark plug  it   creates  a  plasma " channel " that is  relativly  low resistance .........  the much  lower voltage  can   follow this   path as long as the high  voltage maintains  the  channel
The high  voltage is in effect the switch  for  the lower  voltage .
From Cap70 i think..

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2008, 05:07:39 PM
l8r bro 8)

ist

luc 1 more thing wile im on this topic    lets add a tranny to the system  so we can increase the current  of the bemf  and a really kool thing would be if the battery was recharged as well as the fuel being burnt ...

how can we do this  ??   just add another coil and a plug to a return path to the battery.... 8)

so now you pay for the plug to be fired but it returns and burns the fuel for free  :) ;) 8)

enjoy!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 05:16:41 PM
Looks like you got one outta the park, Luc. nice!

Here is a rough schematic from what I could gather out of the vid. Its a bit cartoonish, but its a start. I don't know if I got all the diode sizes right, but it was all done in paint so it will be easy to fix.

Cheers!
Excellent work librame ;) , It looks very good.

Thanks for your great work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 05:40:44 PM
 The setup of the video was done in a garage and I had the garage door was open and outside was just starting to rain which became a major rain storm just after the video was done, there was a lightning hit less than a 100 feet away  :o, the timing of it all felt so perfect, like a confirmation from Mother Nature. So this is to let you all know that at the time I was doing the video I did not realize that the moisture in the air was also helping the spark since you can see I did not need to add water at every spark to make it work.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 06:12:13 PM
@gotoluc: Great stuff Luc! :D Once again I am impressed. ;D Keep up the good work, I'll drop in every now and then ;)

 Please let's stick to Lucs experiment?
Hi Koen1, thanks for coming by to add your comment to stick with a replication first before moving to other directions.

Replicate first, observe the effect then add one change at a time and if you find an improvement please post your finding. Other than that we will loose focus.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 06:28:05 PM
l8r bro 8)

ist

luc 1 more thing wile im on this topic    lets add a tranny to the system  so we can increase the current  of the bemf  and a really kool thing would be if the battery was recharged as well as the fuel being burnt ...

how can we do this  ??   just add another coil and a plug to a return path to the battery.... 8)

so now you pay for the plug to be fired but it returns and burns the fuel for free  :) ;) 8)

enjoy!!
Hi IS, thanks for coming to have a look. Excellent suggestions and everyones input has value here and is important but lets not go to much ahead at this time. Lets bring all these great suggestion when we need them. So IS please keep an eye on this topic and give your great ideas when others can start testing them. Thanks IS

At everyone, as you can see there are many good ideas an room for improvement. So build it fist and then try some of these out.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2008, 06:30:51 PM
i dont see how focous can be lost lol....

all leads back to the same  ;D

ist

lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 06:39:42 PM
Hi Luc, in the video, are you first charging the cap with one lead and then removing it and firing it with the other lead or are you charging the cap and leaving the lead on while you fire with the other lead?

Hi nightlife, I am charging the cap at the bridge then disconnecting it then connecting it to the coil lead to fire the high voltage. Use a SPDT switch to do this first for replication. We will have a much better way to do this, so don't go too much ahead, unless you have replicated and you are ready to improve.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: powercat on June 27, 2008, 08:34:43 PM
Quote
Everyone, please... we want to keep this topic clean. DO NOT POST OTHER SUBJECTS.

Luc

Hi luc good idea

Here's the great video again for page 2  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs)

Great work :)
pc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 27, 2008, 09:01:54 PM
Luc, can you please try to remove the
diodes and just use the cap charge
and no connection from the inverter to the
sparkplug ?
Will this be the same discharge spark or
does the rectified AC also flow via
the spark discharge and make the spark bigger ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on June 27, 2008, 10:35:31 PM
Congrats, Luc , this is a wonderful project and a great example of the Open Source Energy movement!!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: 22vision on June 27, 2008, 11:06:43 PM
wow! I think I just some ious BOOM here I have a 555timer driving the coil with an MOSFET
I was getting the standard little spark from the plug. I just hooked up 2 3KV DC caps from an
old monitor across the plug and I am getting some very nice plasma sparks and what I consider
loud from previous tests. if I dribble some warer on it id gets much louder and there are flashes
of red all around the plug!  I think I am on to somthing here with this. the 555timer is just to pulse
the coil it is around 60hz and I can adjust it. I am going to experiment a bit more then try and get
somthing out to you all.

I will be on this weekend so feel free to ask questions.

22vision

maybe I will get a pic and so you can see  :  )
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:14:39 PM
Luc, can you please try to remove the big diode and just use the cap charge and no connection from the inverter to the
sparkplug ?
Will this be the same discharge spark or does the rectified AC also flow via the spark discharge and make the spark bigger ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
before starting this topic I did do many tests to find what works and what does not. It took about 30 hours to get it down to just this simple circuit. You should of seen the box of all the crap of stuff I took away before doing the video. One thing I can tell you is forget about what conventional electronics says should be.

To answer your questions above, no discharging the 150uf cap charged at 108vdc through the coil only with the rest of the circuit removed will only do a standard spark.

Also if I remove only the diodes and discharge the cap nothing happens.

Thanks  ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:34:14 PM
wow! I think I just some ious BOOM here I have a 555timer driving the coil with an MOSFET
I was getting the standard little spark from the plug. I just hooked up 2 3KV DC caps from an
old monitor across the plug and I am getting some very nice plasma sparks and what I consider
loud from previous tests. if I dribble some warer on it id gets much louder and there are flashes
of red all around the plug!  I think I am on to somthing here with this. the 555timer is just to pulse
the coil it is around 60hz and I can adjust it. I am going to experiment a bit more then try and get
somthing out to you all.

I will be on this weekend so feel free to ask questions.

22vision

maybe I will get a pic and so you can see  :  )
Wow :D , that's great news, mostly if you are seeing the red glow around the plug ;).

Keep us up to date.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kremlin01 on June 28, 2008, 12:50:57 AM
Luc, great topic look forward to further developments.
Going to sleep on it now, if I can sleep!

Regards Bren.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 28, 2008, 01:46:48 AM
Hi Luc,

Thank you for your very interesting experiment.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 28, 2008, 02:09:13 AM
OK...my setup, per Luc's plans.... I get a great spark... red-ish/white (it varies) nice little snap....BUT, i think it could be better!  I dont really have a "mister/sprayer" to fully test with also. I got a el-cheapo 400w inverter from harbor fright tools, does not seem to bog down at any times. I thought i would try a "normal" spark with the coil ... not that impressive!!! LOL  ;D

Also..how many Ohms (or less) should the plug be?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 28, 2008, 03:51:37 AM
UPDATE: I GOT A MUCH BETTER SPARK!!!!!...its almost as good as yours luc... ;D

my trick was to use a "spark gap arc checker" (i think its called) you can get them at any auto parts store, so the resistance is ultra LOW (until i can find the right plug).... i will post a image as soon as i get the pic off my phone. And have some MORE beer!

One interesting thing i did notice is: The checker has a screw that you adjust to make the gap from 0 to 1" .... the farther i make the gap the more DC volts i get from the tip to the ground... ??? normal?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:45:47 AM
Hi Luc,
can you try to put your electrodes directly under water in a water bath and
see what happens then, when you make the discharge ?

Could you this way also make a boat propell due to water shockwaves ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:55:36 AM


To answer your questions above, no discharging the 150uf cap charged to 108vdc through the coil only with the rest of the circuit removed will only do a standard spark.



I see, many thanks for this answer.

Do you have a scope and can then show on a shuntresistor the
current through the brigde rectifier, when the spark gap has fired ?
Is is a 120 Hz pulse current train flowing from the inverter through the
spark gap then when the high voltage from the ignition coil has made
the sparkgap conductive ?

How many amps flow for how long during the spark ?

P.S: Luc, I will set you on elitemember status, so you can
open up a new thread and post there alone and lock the thread up,
so you can document it all in a row.
For historical reasons, I would like to keep
this thread as it is, so everybody can later see, when something
was invented by which person.

Many thanks for understanding.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: poynt99 on June 28, 2008, 04:59:46 AM
a very interesting circuit Luc :)

i think someone already mentioned that the coil spark is acting as a switch to gate-in the rectified inverter output. i would agree with this analysis. quite a neat action.

may the force be with you ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:46:38 AM
Hi Luc,

Thank you for your very interesting experiment.
Regards,

Ossie
Hi Ossie, thanks for looking.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:51:12 AM
Check Ed Gray's work.........

Regards
Hi Erfinder, thanks for looking at this topic. I am happy ;D to see you here. I hope we have the real thing here ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:07:51 AM
OK...my setup, per Luc's plans.... I get a great spark... red-ish/white (it varies) nice little snap....BUT, i think it could be better! All i could get my hands on is a 220uf/250v cap. So how important is the uF of the cap and what value should it be? I dont really have a "mister/sprayer" to fully test with also. I got a el-cheapo 400w inverter from harbor fright tools, does not seem to bog down at any times. I thought i would try a "normal" spark with the coil ... not that impressive!!! LOL  ;D

Also..how many Ohms (or less) should the plug be?
Great work xbox hacker ;D. The uf of the cap is not so important!.. I tested with different values and I could not see the difference and I don't know why that is yet, so experiment as you wish with that and post your findings.

You must use a spark plug with NO resistance in it. Look at my earlier post for the instructions on how to modify your plug. So the plug should be 0 ohms

UPDATE: I GOT A MUCH BETTER SPARK!!!!!...its almost as good as yours luc... ;D

my trick was to use a "spark gap arc checker" (i think its called) you can get them at any auto parts store, so the resistance is ultra LOW (until i can find the right plug).... i will post a image as soon as i get the pic off my phone. And have some MORE beer!

One interesting thing i did notice is: The checker has a screw that you adjust to make the gap from 0 to 1" .... the farther i make the gap the more DC volts i get from the tip to the ground... ??? normal?
That is a good tool to find ideal gap. Keep up the research and post your findings. If anyone here can help start collecting all the details and prepair a pdf of a parts list, how to modify the spark plug and all the new findings, that would be a great help.

Thanks to everyone here for the participation.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on June 28, 2008, 06:09:37 AM
A possible experiment if you have two inverters is to bridge rectify the output on each inverter then add the outputs together in series to a large voltage capacitor get a higher output voltage.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:12:23 AM
Hi Luc,
can you try to put your electrodes directly under water in a water bath and
see what happens then, when you make the discharge ?

Could you this way also make a boat propell due to water shockwaves ?
Hi Stefan, okay I'll try that for you :D but I have to let you know that I love boating and if it works you just might loose me ;D

Ah...the risks of research ;)

Do you have a scope and can then show on a shuntresistor the current through the brigde rectifier, when the spark gap has fired ?
Is is a 120 Hz pulse current train flowing from the inverter through the spark gap then when the high voltage from the ignition coil has made the sparkgap conductive ?

How many amps flow for how long during the spark ?
Regards, Stefan.
Yes I do have a new USB 40Mhz 100MS/s scope which also has a spectrum analyzer. But please know that electronics is not my thing so I may need a step by step (not to operate the scope) but on how and where to hook up the probes, also the max voltage input of the scope is 35 volts, the model of the scope is DSO-2090. I also have a shunt. So guide me through it.

As for pulse current train flowing from the inverter through the spark gap. I did as much as I know how to get this to happen when the high voltage from the ignition coil is triggered to make a conductive path for the RE Plasma from the inverter on the dc side of the bridge when shorted to go through the plug by means of the HV bridge.  I think a triple pulse circuit at every pulse would work much better but I need help on how to build that. I do have some 555 and many other parts but I need help with this.

I will try to measure the current draw and also report back.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:45:07 AM
one thing i'm curious about: would the spark be better if you swapped the microwave diode with the 1N4007?

may the force be with you ;)
I'm not sure if I did that test? but that is a good idea. I'll try it now and let you know.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
A possible experiment if you have two inverters is to bridge rectify the output on each inverter then add the outputs together in series to a large voltage capacitor get a higher output voltage.
Hi hydrocontrol, thanks for looking :D.  Interesting idea you have there. I though about something like that but what I was thinking is inverters in Europe, would they not be already 220v or so?  Hope we can get someone from Europe, India or Astrailia to replicate this. We shall see.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on June 28, 2008, 07:10:36 AM
Hi Luc,

thanks for sharing your discovery. The european inverters have an output of 230V AC.



cheers

atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 07:28:40 AM
Hi Luc,

thanks for sharing your discovery. The european inverters have an output of 230V AC.

cheers

atlantex
Hi atlantex, thanks for your reply and looking at this topic. I hope we can get a replication with one of these and see the difference in the results.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on June 28, 2008, 07:50:42 AM
hopefully the capacitor or something else doesn't blow up  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: yaz on June 28, 2008, 09:22:23 AM
Video of a sparkplug plasma ball using only 9 volt batteries! Pure DC!
Wonder if hooking up a capacitor and/or inverter would increase the intensity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iNCzhP7754&NR=1

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on June 28, 2008, 09:38:03 AM
Hi Luc,

thanks for sharing your discovery. The european inverters have an output of 230V AC.



cheers

atlantex

Great.. The only problem being that this would be harder for people in the US to get one of these 230VAC inverters so I was thinking getting two 110VAC from WallyWorld and a couple of bridge rectifiers from RadioShaft would be easier. I think getting high voltage caps might be easy as a lot of computer power supplies have high voltage caps in them so a couple of scavanged dead computer power supplies could be the ticket for cheaper replication.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pomodoro on June 28, 2008, 09:57:03 AM
I enjoyed the video but I have a feeling that you have found a novel way to explode water, using an unlimited supply of energy (the inverter). The way I see it, the coil ionizes some water molecules and the inverter is happy to provide the current through the nearly short circuit provided by the ionized water. And BANG! Not much energy would be required to blow up a few million molecules of water. So in a real scenario, you would need to provide more energy than that received by the expansion of the exploding water.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: willitwork on June 28, 2008, 10:45:44 AM
If the diagram is correct I presume the 1n4007 would be damaged by now. Can you please confirm if the 4007 is used between the coil and the plug and the microwave between the full wave and the plug. Could they be the other way around?

If the diagram is correct please confirm if the 4007 is still intact.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on June 28, 2008, 01:14:35 PM
i've been looking at the circuit diagram thinking about your q as to where to put the negative lead on the scope probe, and it is a good one... It's very easy to smoke a scope this way (and if it's attached to a PC, possibly smoke that too).

It is safest to leave the scope in AC mode and not use the ground at all (you will still get readings). This caution is because the whole circuit is floating off-ground; and most scopes powered by AC are "single-ended to ground" (non-isolated); unless advertised as "isolated" (rare and more expensive). Battery-powered 'scopes are easier and safer to use in this respect (...act like a DVM), but if interfaced via USB remember that it gets a ground via the PC so this is still very important to remember or damage to the PC could occur.

If you absolutely had to have DC measurement with an AC-powered or PC-interfaced scope, you would first need to earth-ground the negative of the battery and inverter (run a wire to the third hole in a wall socket).. This is assuming the plug ground actually was wired-up correctly in the wall, the scope itself is grounded via the third lug of the power cord, and that it plugs into the same AC circuit (..these things are not always true, lol), and then leave the neg. scope lead attached at that point (no other spot in that circuit will be "safe" for the ground lead, unless the scope is battery powered and not interfaced to a PC).

Some people try "cheating" by cutting off the third lug on the scope's power cord to "float" it: Bad idea; you can get badly shocked this way if you touch the chassis (unless you wired that house/garage yourself and are positively sure about the wiring).

Assuming that scope probe is a "X 1" with the usual 1 M Ohm input impedance; a 9 or 10 Meg. Ohm resister in series with the positive lead tip will raise the total input impedance and the max. allowed voltage 10 or 11 times (this is what a "X10" scope probe does, many have little slide switches for this right on the probe). You would just have to remember your measurements would be correspondingly ten or 11 times higher that what you read on the screen; and accuracy would now correspond to the quality of the resistor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 28, 2008, 01:19:44 PM
Hi All,

I have fully replicated the effect that Luc describes and shows. It is truly astounding! With no water and a dry spark plug you get normal cap discharges and nothing special. Spray a bit of water and it is like fire crackers going off! The water will continue to explode when fired repetitively until it has all gone from within the spark plug. This can take a minute or two at a 1 second repitition rate. The more fine the water and spray, the more powerfull an explosion and it is undoubtedly an extreme fuel based explosion which in this case, the fuel is water. Please see my video where I have tried to capture the explosions with angle shots but my digital camera does not do justice in representing the true power of the explosive ignitions of the water. This is very real stuff indeed folks!

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I am attaching a circuit diagram of my test setup and some pictures to this post. Regarding the circuit, the most important part of the discharge side is the need for a high current high voltage diode. I have simply used 16 x 1N5404 in series. They are 4 amp diodes. My oscillator is a basic radiant oscillator that I released years ago and is a very good and simple radiant energy oscillator. As far as RE being at work here, we all need to do much more experimentation to prove it is required as opposed to convention energy. I do know that my simple circuit uses 1-1.5 amps input at 12 volts and this energy input can be brought down significantly with more efficient circuit design.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 28, 2008, 01:35:30 PM
Hi All,

I have fully replicated the effect that Luc describes and shows. It is truly astounding! With no water and a dry spark plug you get normal cap discharges and nothing special. Spray a bit of water and it is like fire crackers going off! The water will continue to explode when fired repetitively until it has all gone from within the spark plug. This can take a minute or two at a 1 second repitition rate. The more fine the water and spray, the more powerfull an explosion and it is undoubtedly an extreme fuel based explosion which in this case, the fuel is water. Please see my video where I have tried to capture the explosions with angle shots but my digital camera does not do justice in representing the true power of the explosive ignitions of the water. This is very real stuff indeed folks!

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9


I am attaching a circuit diagram of my test setup and some pictures to this post. Regarding the circuit, the most important part of the discharge side is the need for a high current high voltage diode. I have simply used 16 x 1N5404 in series. They are 4 amp diodes. My oscillator is a basic radiant oscillator that I released years ago and is a very good and simple radiant energy oscillator. As far as RE being at work here, we all need to do much more experimentation to prove it is required as opposed to convention energy. I do know that my simple circuit uses 1-1.5 amps input at 12 volts and this energy input can be brought down significantly with more efficient circuit design.

Regards,

Ossie



If avaiable use Faster Diodes than 1N5400 series.
Use AVALANCHE diode to protect against hi voltages peak.
so i tpmt need 16 diodes.
with faster diodes (switching time) you have also more efficientce in output voltages -

Gustav Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on June 28, 2008, 02:14:54 PM
Gotoluc & Callanan,

You might want to think about replacing the water sprayer with steam from an electric kettle, this would simulate heated vapour in ICE (pre-ignition) also, if you could run the steam through a strong EM field prior to igniting it, the effects might be worth the effort.
BTW. I believe S1R's surge issues are nothing more than inconsistent water metering.

Rgds. to all.   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on June 28, 2008, 02:37:16 PM
I think you mean through an E only field, like Meyer said?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: epwpixieq-1 on June 28, 2008, 03:09:41 PM
Hi Luc,

thanks for the wonderful research !!!!

@ALL who are able to replicate

I have what appears to be a stupid  idea, that may show something ( or may not ).
What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer, instead of watter. Hopefully it will not explode in the same way as watter. But with the same initial conditions, at least, it may show what is the energy content of watter compared with gasoline.

Please ignore this posting if you find that it diverges the topic.

Keep the wonderful research guys !!!

sas
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wattsup on June 28, 2008, 04:00:49 PM
@gotoluc

Good one.

You might like this post.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg81291.html#msg81291

General Ignition coil info;
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html

I'm wondering if a spark plug ignition coil like you are doing produces flyback. Maybe try sending a wire from the ignition coil positive to the battery positive but through a diode. See if the battery power goes up while producing the sparks or if the sparks are no longer produced. lol

On the other hand, is this not possible with just straight wall socket AC power rectified then pulsed as you are doing. Meaning, do you really need the battery and the inverter to make the spark system work.

The other question would be what is the point of this. Do you think an engine will be able to use such high sparking. Will the engine timing limitations be in conflict with the timing limitations of such a spark system. Can this possibly produce hydrogen?

Last question. What are you going to call it. lol

I will have to try this when time permits from so many other projects.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:36:06 PM
He is using steam with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bMZ_pD-Jug

Looks great !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 28, 2008, 04:42:04 PM
hartiberlin: Nice work!!  ;D


Has anyone tried luc's system on a plug in a chamber under pressure?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 28, 2008, 04:50:41 PM
<snip>

I'm wondering if a spark plug ignition coil like you are doing produces flyback. Maybe try sending a wire from the ignition coil positive to the battery positive but through a diode. See if the battery power goes up while producing the sparks or if the sparks are no longer produced. lol

<snip>
The other question would be what is the point of this. Do you think an engine will be able to use such high sparking. Will the engine timing limitations be in conflict with the timing limitations of such a spark system. Can this possibly produce hydrogen?

<snip>

I was wondering about this too (engine timing/HHO sparkplug fire), but then realized that the timing for HHO spark could be a completely separate unit with solid state timer.

_IF_ that would work, the weak link in automotive electrical system will be the threat of burning up the alternator from too much current draw, rather than engine timing.

Hopefully engine timing will need to be adjusted for the quicker burn of hydrogen vs. petroleum gasoline only, and not running dual spark off the ignition (could fry points/ignition computer).

If you're interested in the HHO output of the spark, look up YouTube channel "crob227" as he's been researching this type of production for a while, but using wire/screw spark gap.

I've wanted to add a coil for HV output for HHO production to see how it would effect output.

Thanks for beating me to it! ;)

Now I'm just wondering how much bigger the alternator would have to be to handle the dual load of engine spark, and HHO spark...........
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:54:13 PM
Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Great replication Ossi !

Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

Also, why is the spark blown out ?

As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?
In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: provelless on June 28, 2008, 04:57:52 PM
Quote
I have what appears to be a stupid  idea, that may show something ( or may not ).
What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer, instead of watter

 I had wondered this also. I think we've all have  had a spark plug out of a small engine at some time or another that has had gas on it while we were checking for spark. With a standard ignition system the spark isn't much dry or wet with gas. That said the spark/plasma their getting with water is much more intense than what is currently running in our small engines now using gas. The only question in my mind is will the explosion/expansion of water be the same as gas in a compressed chamber. If it's less I would think firing it closer to TDC would solve this.
                     I have several small engines, 400watt inverter and a microwave on its way, will the microwave have all the electronic parts I need or do I need to go the a parts store? I hope to get something fired up by Sunday!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 05:04:14 PM
How to get the resistor out of the sparkplug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Can somebody please measure what the Ohm value of this resistor is ?
Is it in the 1 to 10  Ohm range or KOhms ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:06:26 PM
Video of a sparkplug plasma ball using only 9 volt batteries! Pure DC!
Wonder if hooking up a capacitor and/or inverter would increase the intensity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iNCzhP7754&NR=1
Hi yaz, thanks for looking and bringing us this excellent video demo. Our circuit can do the same thing ;) all you do is short the plug tip like he does in the video (for a microsecond) and watch the flame go and also watch your plug get ruined ;D.  One might want to increase the gap to as large as you can. Once the RE Plasma Flame is started, I was able to have as much as a 1/2 inch gap. See the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhXPEHM7Cv4

Great.. The only problem being that this would be harder for people in the US to get one of these 230VAC inverters so I was thinking getting two 110VAC from WallyWorld and a couple of bridge rectifiers from RadioShaft would be easier. I think getting high voltage caps might be easy as a lot of computer power supplies have high voltage caps in them so a couple of scavanged dead computer power supplies could be the ticket for cheaper replication.
Hi hydrocontrol, we can look on ebay of India or other contries and get them there ;) Yes, Everyone reuse parts, we are throwing out so many good components every day I find computer monitors, power supplies, microwave ovens and the list goes on.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:15:28 PM
If the diagram is correct I presume the 1n4007 would be damaged by now. Can you please confirm if the 4007 is used between the coil and the plug and the microwave between the full wave and the plug. Could they be the other way around?

If the diagram is correct please confirm if the 4007 is still intact.
Hi willitwork, thanks for looking. I have already confirmed that it is still intact, some posts up. Please read this post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108536.html#msg108536

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 05:19:53 PM
Hi Luc and Ossi,
maybe you can try if the sparkplug electrode materials really have much
influence of the reaction and also the used area of it.

Maybe you can just try to use a bigger metal area, so
just use 2 iron or copper plates or graphite plates and
see, if you bring them close enough and have them wet,
if the whole area will explode or only there, where the spark jumps ?

So maybe if you have at least 1 x 1 inch area of 2 wet plates,
will the whole water on all the area explode or
only the water being directly inside the sparking area ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:32:37 PM
Hi All,

I have fully replicated the effect that Luc describes and shows. It is truly astounding! With no water and a dry spark plug you get normal cap discharges and nothing special. Spray a bit of water and it is like fire crackers going off! The water will continue to explode when fired repetitively until it has all gone from within the spark plug. This can take a minute or two at a 1 second repitition rate. The more fine the water and spray, the more powerfull an explosion and it is undoubtedly an extreme fuel based explosion which in this case, the fuel is water. Please see my video where I have tried to capture the explosions with angle shots but my digital camera does not do justice in representing the true power of the explosive ignitions of the water. This is very real stuff indeed folks!

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I am attaching a circuit diagram of my test setup and some pictures to this post. Regarding the circuit, the most important part of the discharge side is the need for a high current high voltage diode. I have simply used 16 x 1N5404 in series. They are 4 amp diodes. My oscillator is a basic radiant oscillator that I released years ago and is a very good and simple radiant energy oscillator. As far as RE being at work here, we all need to do much more experimentation to prove it is required as opposed to convention energy. I do know that my simple circuit uses 1-1.5 amps input at 12 volts and this energy input can be brought down significantly with more efficient circuit design.

Regards,

Ossie
Hi Ossie,  ;D ;D ;D Excellent work ;) I am very happy.
I don't know if anyone here would have ideas how to capture a photo of the orange red glow that is going on when the water spray is applied to the plug when it fires?

It would be nice to post a picture of that since the video camera does not pick it up.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 05:57:07 PM
Hi Ossie,  ;D ;D ;D Excellent work ;) I am very happy.
I don't know if anyone here would have ideas how to capture a photo of the orange red glow that is going on when the water spray is applied to the plug when it fires?

It would be nice to post a picture of that since the video camera does not pick it up.

Luc



Hi Luc,
put a bit of Strontium Nitrate into the water,
then it surely will glow red ! ;)

I used this when I still designed my own fireworks... ;)

By the way,  one could also try to use this water explosion for a MHD
generator.
see:
(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/36/336-004-08BF8623.gif)

and

http://elgersmad.homestead.com/files/mhd/mhd.html

So try to put near the spark gap a magnet and capture electrodes 90 degrees
to your sparkplug electrodes and you will capture some negative electrons and
positive ions, which will charge up your capture electrodes.

Would be interesting to see the captured electric pulse on these electrodes.
Maybe this way we could reconvert the exploding water into electricity
and the efficiency might be higher than in a fuel cell ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:00:17 PM
If avaiable use Faster Diodes than 1N5400 series.
Use AVALANCHE diode to protect against hi voltages peak.
so i tpmt need 16 diodes.
with faster diodes (switching time) you have also more efficientce in output voltages -

Gustav Pese
Hi pese, thanks for looking at this topic and offering your advice to help ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:05:06 PM
Gotoluc & Callanan,

You might want to think about replacing the water sprayer with steam from an electric kettle, this would simulate heated vapour in ICE (pre-ignition) also, if you could run the steam through a strong EM field prior to igniting it, the effects might be worth the effort.
BTW. I believe S1R's surge issues are nothing more than inconsistent water metering.

Rgds. to all.   
Hi Dread, thanks for coming to this topic, a good suggestion also to see if steam has the same effect or does it get better or worse. A definite simple test to do today.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 06:36:57 PM
Hi Luc,
I attached the drawing from user librame to your
first posting, so new readers will come faster to the clues.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 07:00:24 PM
I'm wondering if a spark plug ignition coil like you are doing produces flyback. Maybe try sending a wire from the ignition coil positive to the battery positive but through a diode. See if the battery power goes up while producing the sparks or if the sparks are no longer produced. lol

On the other hand, is this not possible with just straight wall socket AC power rectified then pulsed as you are doing. Meaning, do you really need the battery and the inverter to make the spark system work.

The other question would be what is the point of this. Do you think an engine will be able to use such high sparking. Will the engine timing limitations be in conflict with the timing limitations of such a spark system. Can this possibly produce hydrogen?
Hi wattsup, I'm happy to see you dropped in ;D  flyback is definitely something that I will be testing if you know my style. Did you read my posts from the beginning? did you see the RE Plasma Flame video I am getting from the inverter with a FWBR? I think that may have to do with the effect, so I think it may have to do with the non sine wave output of the inverter. The idea is to have a ICE running on water. Replicators and myself are already seeing an orange red flame (which cannot be captured on video) around the plug when it fires when sprayed with water, I think that would be Hydrogen.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on June 28, 2008, 07:11:14 PM
I'm a little bit confused about the picture in post 1.

How is the neodyn magnet exactly connected?



atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Golden Mean on June 28, 2008, 07:13:38 PM
I feel like a bit of a dolt for asking this, but electronics is not a strong area of knowledge for me.

Could one of you Brilliant, Generous people please post a write-up of what is going on here and why this is so exciting in layman's terms? 
How is this different from a normal spark plug and why?  What advantages does this offer? Could this be easily adapted to current auto-tech?, Etc...

Additionally, since I am not an electronics person and don't have the time to learn all this to contribute to the testing of various configs, I am more than willing to offer my skills in animation, video production, web design and database development to contribute to bringing this to the masses.

Much love & peace to all.
Thanks.
Will
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on June 28, 2008, 07:38:45 PM
Another experimenter, with test results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUBDX0-_ZZQ
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 07:40:31 PM
Hi Luc and Ossi, did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first before doing your experiments ?

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

Also, why is the spark blown out ?

Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running on this water explosion ?

Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan, yes internal resistor is removed, this is mentioned that it is and how to do it at the beginning of topic. That is a good video on how to do it.

I do believe some collection of the back EMF could be collected. I will be testing this later.

I do not believe that hi volts cap discharge will do this, since it would of been found by now.

It blows out yes. I think it would be the energy release.

The video I posted at my first post shows an even more impressive spark burn at 1/2" inch gap :o. I stopped it because the metal was starting to melt. The difference is with this circuit is the RE Plasma Flame will last only the time the HV spark is on to make the bridge for it, that is why I say if we want more power all we need to do is have the HV last longer. Are you all not getting it???

Once we do that I am sure it will make an ICE work on water.

He is also getting a nice flame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I

Regards, Stefan.
This was posted here before and I think it is off topic since he is using electrolyte in his water. It is just a show.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: The Observer on June 28, 2008, 07:45:45 PM
Hello Luc and the Rest,

Thankyou Luc for your post, video, enthusiasm and willingness to share with others.

I will admit, I am not sure what is meant by radiant energy, perhaps a short explanation of it here would be appropriate.

However, when I look at the diagram created by Libra, I can't help but see an IRON CORE.
  This 'Iron Core' and what it does is the Topic of a thread I started about MAGNETIC PERMEABILITY.
     In fact, it's fair to say I am obsessed with this subject.

     http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4831.0.html

However, here is short explanation of what I am so concerned about when it comes to Magnetic Permeability.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Coil
         with a current
                             produces a magnetic field.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same Coil with a Core (Ferromagnetic, Low Coercivity)
                                                                               with the SAME Current
                                                                                                                 produces a magnetic field

                                      1000's if not 1,000,000 times greater !!
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------         

Where does this energy come from? has definitely been a question on my mind.
Here are some answers and important points pertaining to the characteristics of Ferromagnetic Matierials.

      1. Magnetic Energy comes from the limitless energy of unpaired electrons spinning in the atoms of Ferromagnetic Materials.

      2. Without the presence of an external field, domains form that are a balance between what compasses would do when too close (on a the macro scale)
          And, ANISOTROPIC ENERGY, the Quantum Energy that makes dipoles align when they 'shouldn't'  (on the micro scale)   

          These balance out to get the maze like domains of ferromagnetic materials NOT in the presence of a Magnetic Field.
     
          Because the maze points 'any which way but loose', the external Magnetic NET TOTAL of the Domains/Atom Dipoles ADDS up to ZERO.
                                         
                                                                                                                       If you can't understand this, you won't be able to comprehend the rest.
                                     
                                                                                                              That is, a bunch of energy ADDS up to ZERO when observed from the outside.

      3. When an external magnetic field is applied, the aligned domains get bigger as a result of neighboring dipoles joining the 'happening' alignment.
          This takes little or no 'extra' energy as the ANISOTROPIC energy is very willing to help out in this matter.
 
          Then, the Sum of the domains gets to be Something
 
                                                                                          that can be observed on the outside.

This is where
   
                       an amplification of 5,000 or more

                                                                            is added to the coil's minuscule magnetic field.


So, I hope you can see why I think it is important to understand what is going on when introducing a core to coil in a setup.

In other words, I would bet dollars to donuts that this works because of the core.
                                                                                                                    No core, no 'radiant' energy.

Please, keep up the good work.
  Perhaps this info helps your understanding of the device you have created.

May Sun Shine on your Backdoor Someday,

                                                                 The Observer




                                                                                   


                                     

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 08:00:31 PM
I feel like a bit of a dolt for asking this, but electronics is not a strong area of knowledge for me.

Could one of you Brilliant, Generous people please post a write-up of what is going on here and why this is so exciting in layman's terms? 
How is this different from a normal spark plug and why?  What advantages does this offer? Could this be easily adapted to current auto-tech?, Etc...

Additionally, since I am not an electronics person and don't have the time to learn all this to contribute to the testing of various configs, I am more than willing to offer my skills in animation, video production, web design and database development to contribute to bringing this to the masses.

Much love & peace to all.
Thanks.
Will
Hi Will, thanks for looking at this topic and speaking your truth. You have an excellent point and I do also see it the way you do. I am asking for help to do up a single page document that could be easier to understand but that can take some time. This topic is only 2 days old so it will get there with the Grace of God's will.

The idea here is to use water as a fuel for an automobile engine and limitless applications.

I do appreciate your offer in your skilled area and my hopes are up that we can get to that point. Please keep an eye on this topics first post since we will be posting the most up to date schematic and hopefully a simple documentation there.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wattsup on June 28, 2008, 08:05:38 PM
Spark plug model number should also play into this. The higher the number, the higher the spark/heat ratio. A J19 will spark hotter then a J7.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 08:11:23 PM
Hi there The Observer,

Thanks for looking at this topic. The word RE think is just someting we have made up. We are all talking about the same thing just in different words or ways.
Thanks for posting the information. Hopefully one day soon we will have a common language so that we can have a conversation about this. However we are just starting to learn it over again and it will take some time

Thanks for posting.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 09:36:07 PM
Hi Luc,
I removed the magnet in the picture from librame at the cap to your
directions at the first post of this thread.

So no magnet at the switch.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bigblue on June 28, 2008, 10:08:22 PM
Hey guys,

                 Just new to the site and it seems very exciting. It seems that you are wanting to (by viewing the video of the 18 hp lawn mower engine on the cinderblock running on water) run an engine on water internally and not externally with a Hydrogen Gen. , feeding water directly into the combustion chamber and changing it there, by utilizing a plasma spark? I believe that is a brilliant idea, I even printed off the electrical diagram with the inverter and 12volt coil, you all posted in the last few days. I came across the FIRESTORM spark plug invention on the web and it sure looks like what we need for this application, it is a plasma emitting spark plug.....................God Bless ................J
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 28, 2008, 10:44:06 PM
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mark69 on June 28, 2008, 10:56:48 PM
Hello all,  just trying to follow what is happening...  Has anyone tried injecting steam into an ICE with this type of spark plug in the motor?  I was thinking injecting the steam in the air stream, not the sparkplug, or perhaps with this sparkplug.  I dont think you will have a problem with compressing the steam???

Mark
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on June 28, 2008, 10:58:34 PM
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,





@nightlife
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 28, 2008, 11:07:13 PM
DrStiffler,
Quote
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.


 That may be true but the pre-energized water may be pre-conditioned for the effect to take place. Based on what Luc's experiment has proven, it must be energized before it can be ignited.

 Maybe energizing the water gets the molecules moving and that maybe why it can then and only then be ignited.

 This is the only thing I can think of as far as why it has to have a initially power introduced first.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: eastcoastwilly on June 28, 2008, 11:38:58 PM
Hi Luc,

Great work from you and great input from others. Further to nightlife's suggestion of energizing water I wonder what effect using freshly Ozonated water would have on the effect. Many people are mis-informed about ozone, it is VERY, reactive to most inorganic materials, however Ozone is one of natures wonders for purging the planet from toxins. I don't know if a cheap (O3) water ozonator would saturate enough O3 into the water to make a difference but It might be interesting :)

Good luck and keep up the great work folks

Will
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on June 28, 2008, 11:48:45 PM
Hi Luc and OTHERS,

I guess no forum is immune to off topic posts.  I was truly hoping things would be different here with better moderating of the posts.  Bottom line:  Although HHO and electrolysis is a great concept, and just one workable solution to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, this thread was supposed to ONLY be for determining/developing/replicating and maybe enhancing the circuit used in S1R's project.

TO EVERYONE:
The action between water vapor and a plasma arc IS NOT instantaneous disassociation of water into its components, hydrolysis of any kind and really NOT the topic of this thread!

It is very similar to Flash Steam, if not flash steam itself!  It is very similar to Lightening and Thunder.  Lightening and Thunder is the discharge of high energy which pushes the air molecules between the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds.  Thunder is essentially a sonic boom which we not only hear, but also FEEL its concussion.

This is not a chemical - combustion reaction... it is a physical - concussion reaction with enough concussive force to push a piston down.

Now, can we please get back to developing the best circuit which Luc started, and work together to focus on this ALONE.  There are a million other forums out there for awesome alternative energy systems, but extraneous to this particular thread.

As S1R's videos already showed, he IS running the Briggs & Straton engine on water ALONE.  We just don't know what components are in the silver painted "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container, which is what Luc felt he had a handle on, and started this thread.

PLEASE!  Let's work together and help each other moving forward with what Luc started and not deviate from the task at hand... to recreate the circuit in the "mystery container."  The rest of the project is already known.

Respectfully,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 29, 2008, 12:13:17 AM

Hi witty Guys,

Sounds like this bl' oil barrel price is getting to high. This have a gift for
increasing the creativity and the motivations of some free and sharp minds over here. ;D

Thanks a lot for all your informations and sharing...

@Harti_Berlin:
Thanks for the vid.

How to get the resistor out of the sparkplug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Can somebody please measure what the Ohm value of this resistor is ?
Is it in the 1 to 10  Ohm range or KOhms ?

In France the internal resistance of the Spark-Plug is 5000 ohms (5K).
I have some old car sparks plugs and also a old small motor SP that shows zero resistance!
According to the fact that the spark plug 'leads' have also some resistance, (officially for avoiding
RF interferences, I guess) .
This should be done to increase the mileage.  Unless it were the contrary. :'(

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on June 29, 2008, 01:29:10 AM
... I have what appears to be a stupid  idea ...What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer ...?

This is indeed a stupid idea.

NEVER DO THIS!!!  You can blow up the room and kill yourself very quickly.  Hopefully nobody has tried this - otherwise their silence on the results would be due to their instant demise, or hospitalisation with 3rd degree burns ...

I undestand what you are trying to prove - but be safe, whatever you do.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: yaz on June 29, 2008, 01:41:21 AM
Stumbled upon a file on a few secrets on S1R's plasma setup. The original document has diagrams but here's a little snip of the document.

The SECRET OF Joe Cells and S1r?s Watercar

Note that Tesla?s BALL LIGHTNING was created by TWO POSITIVE ANODE DISCHARGES FROM TWO COILS IN HARMONIC RESONENCE WITH ONE COIL HAVING A HIGHER VOLTAGE THAN THE OTHER.

That is fundamentally what EV Gray did, what Papp did and what S1r did.  Simply, you create a high voltage and a low voltage spark gap (plug/positive anodes) and the discharge will form a type of plasma ball in air.  Do this intentionally in a cylinder that is grounded and you get a BIG BANG that is contained in a small area that is sufficient to drive a piston down.   

Graneau exploded water just using a single HV capacitance discharge, but this approach is not practical in an engine as it created a concentrated unidirectional explosion but was difficult to recharge and reload.  Tesla?s dual coil simplicity, however, is easily replicated and can be fired at whatever frequency (RPM) required.

S1r?s circuit is very similar to Tesla?s in that he used his car?s normal HV ignition coil and a low voltage (LV) 110v inverter rectified (with high amps) and fired these together through a single wire to the spark plugs.  Many people were confused by S1r?s relays, but these are just additional coils and a way to merge the POSITIVE HV and LV sources together AT A SINGLE ANODE.  The same thing could be accomplished using a 2 ANODE PLUG in each cylinder (but nobody makes those YET.)

Has anyone tried to adjust the high voltage frequency to resonate with the inverter?


The actual document is here.
http://www.thejoecell.com/files/The_Tesla_Plasma_Engine.doc

If you can't see the document due to a graphics filter problem (like I had) here's a link to a viewer.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=95E24C87-8732-48D5-8689-AB826E7B8FDF&displaylang=en

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on June 29, 2008, 01:55:58 AM
If i'm understanding this correctly -  it's the sharp square wave of a cheap inverter that is creating the anomolous radiant energy spark.  So so don't buy a sine or modified sine inverter - get the cheap square wave ones.  If speed of diodes is important, then the speed of the diodes in the bridge rectifier will be important.  And don't try to parallel them together, as the pulses from both inverters may not be in phase, so there are complications.  You could just end up with non-pulsed DC most of the time.

Watch out for disinformation from MIB in this thread.  (for all you know, I could be a MIB - there is little point me trying to reassure you that i'm just a geniune free energy tinkerer - so use your brains to see what is going on here).

I like the steam kettle idea for initial proof of concept testing.

I like the multiple spark approach.  How about two seperate sparks - one high voltage low current to ionise the spark gap, and then hit it with lower voltage but higher current immediately afterwards.

How about connecting 12V directly from the battery to the spark plugs all the time with high current leads.  They would normally never conduct anything - until the spark happened ... would that provide more grunt to the detonation?  I understand hho cells only require 2V, and anything more is wasteful - perhaps (once the plasma spark has been formed) low voltage is better?

The catch to this idea is that we don't want to create a path so that multiple cylinders fire at once.  Should work with a single cylinder engine - might require diodes or switching for multi cylinders?

I like the idea of using the existing ignition circuit to provide the timed 12V.  How about a 555 running at 200hz (whatever is optimal - is Bedini Tesla switch data trustworthy?) gating a MOSFET to charge the capacitor.  Maybe a single-shot 555 to operate some MOSFETs configured as the SPDT gate to send the capicitor charge to the distributor.  (The time delay required for charging the capicitor would need to be deducted from the ignition timing - ie. we would need to advance the timing.  I expect the timing will have to be manually adjusted for the new fuel anyway).

I hope these thoughts help.  Ignore them otherwise - I really want to see this thing suceed.

EDIT Perhaps a single cylinder engine that can be manually set to TDC by hand would be a good start.  If we could get a single power stoke from a single spark, we would be onto something.  The trick would be to get the compressed air to hold enough water - maybe steam kettle into the inlet manifold, and prime it with a single turn by hand before ignition. 

I think it's important to get some quick proof of concept results to encourage a breakthrough that can't be suppressed.







Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 29, 2008, 02:11:05 AM
Hi Stephan,

>Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

- My spark plug does not have any resistor. It measures 0 ohms.

> Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

- Most definately. But I would have never believed I could get water to explode on demand even with the 1-1.5 amp at 12 volts I am using. Seeing and hearing is believing guys. This is very real indeed and practically very simple to replicate once you understand the key requirements.

> It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

- The goal must be to come up with the best circuit for the least energy input. At this stage I don't know if this will mean it will be a capacitive discharge or power on demand circuit. I think that maybe a power on demand circuit with DC pulses at the correct frequency, pulse width and voltage may result in the least energy input. Plenty of lab work to do for all of us but because this is the first alternative energy system that I now believe is truly practical for the home experimenter to build and use, we need to stop all the speculation and guessing and theory and simply analyse technically what has been achieved practically as the overall system and process is very simple. So simple that if you are from a technical or scientific background, you would never beilieve it...

> Also, why is the spark blown out ?

- Simply because it is a very violent explosiong of the water. It is a true and real explosion indeed!!! What you are seeing that is poorly captured by the video is the extremly fast expanding gases of a violent explosion that also creates a loud bang like a fire cracker! It does have a red colour to the gas that does not get captured by the camera as well. I used my digital still camera which does video but no sound. If I get time I will try and capture it on my digital handy cam with the sound and better quality. Just a pain to capture it to PC and convert then upload to youtube but it is important to show.

> As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

- No. Why? The process is simply this and why it can easily be adapted to any combustion engine with a standard ignition system. All you need is a DC voltage supply of a few hundred volts, even just 100 volts, sitting across the spark plug in parallel with the car's normal and standard ignition system. Put water through the fuel system instead of petrol. When the normal HV spark from the standard ignition system occurs, it will ionise the air-water mixture between the spark plug gap and provide a conductive path for the DC voltage supply to flow. When the DC supply flows through the ionised air-water mixture, it instantaneously dissassociates the H2O and ignites the dissassociated hydrogen and oxygen gases. This explosion causes a violent expansion of the gases which pushes the engines cylinders down and drives the motor action of the engine in sequence.

- So the water does NOT burn. It explodes instantaneously and will continue to explode for every ignition pulse as long as there is moisture in the gap. When the moisture is gone there is no explosion. But it does not take much moisture and it seems that even a very humid rainy day may have enough moisture in the air for some small but limited ignitions. I am sure the current air humidity percentage will effect the efficiency of the overall process. Heat and steam work very well but is not needed as an external input as the spark plug gets so hot it starts to heat the moisture in the gap on it's own in a very short time. Please understand that I agree that this is unbelievable but now I am doing this on the lab bench and it is very real and very simple.

> Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

- Yes, exactly! The water itself explodes and is blowing out very voilently!

> In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

I don't know what is going on in that video but I don't think it really fit's in this very valuable thread. Luc well and truly needs a pat on the back.

> Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

- I have no doubt about it now. If you have read the pdf based on S1R9A9M9 work, I believe this can be done. He did it with little electronics knowledge and standard components and equipment. With just a little engineering, the whole process can be made so much more efficient and simple and applied to any combustion engine. The pdf can be found here.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/watercar.pdf

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:19:44 AM
Hey guys,

Just new to the site and it seems very exciting. It seems that you are wanting to (by viewing the video of the 18 hp lawn mower engine on the cinderblock running on water) run an engine on water internally and not externally with a Hydrogen Gen. , feeding water directly into the combustion chamber and changing it there, by utilizing a plasma spark? I believe that is a brilliant idea, I even printed off the electrical diagram with the inverter and 12volt coil, you all posted in the last few days. I came across the FIRESTORM spark plug invention on the web and it sure looks like what we need for this application, it is a plasma emitting spark plug.....................God Bless ................J
Hi bigblue, welcome to this topic. Your understanding of what we would like to do is correct. However we are not the one who did the 18 hp engine video, the person who did the video is not sharing his circuit as you can see in his video the parts are in a metal tin. Here we share what we have and ideas of ways we can do this. We have a circuit that is giving positive results but as far as I know none of us have tried it in an engine yet. This circuit was just discovered about 3 days ago, so we are asking anyone who is interested to build it,  test it and share your findings and ideas to improve the circuit if at all possible.
Unfortunately for us the FIRESTORM spark plug was never manufactured. It seems to be a trend in our world :-[ we never get the good stuff. We all need to work together for things to change. This is what we are trying to do here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:27:46 AM
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,
Hi nightlife, that is very interesting...can you find out the process involve in charging the water?

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:36:16 AM
@nightlife
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.

Hi DrStiffler, thanks for dropping in. That is a good point also.

I would be interested in your opinion of this circuit and what has been shared to date.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:39:23 AM
I'm a little bit confused about the picture in post 1.

How is the neodyn magnet exactly connected?
atlantex
Hi atlantex, thanks for posting your concern. The Neo magnet is not needed and has now been removed.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:45:49 AM
Hi Luc,

Great work from you and great input from others. Further to nightlife's suggestion of energizing water I wonder what effect using freshly Ozonated water would have on the effect. Many people are mis-informed about ozone, it is VERY, reactive to most inorganic materials, however Ozone is one of natures wonders for purging the planet from toxins. I don't know if a cheap (O3) water ozonator would saturate enough O3 into the water to make a difference but It might be interesting :)

Good luck and keep up the great work folks

Will
Hi eastcoastwilly, thanks for looking at this topic and sharing your thought. I would think your idea deserve to be tested, why not :D
I'll write it on my things to test list. Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 03:10:53 AM
Hi Luc and OTHERS,

I guess no forum is immune to off topic posts.  I was truly hoping things would be different here with better moderating of the posts.  Bottom line:  Although HHO and electrolysis is a great concept, and just one workable solution to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, this thread was supposed to ONLY be for determining/developing/replicating and maybe enhancing the circuit used in S1R's project.

TO EVERYONE:
The action between water vapor and a plasma arc IS NOT instantaneous disassociation of water into its components, hydrolysis of any kind and really NOT the topic of this thread!

It is very similar to Flash Steam, if not flash steam itself!  It is very similar to Lightening and Thunder.  Lightening and Thunder is the discharge of high energy which pushes the air molecules between the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds.  Thunder is essentially a sonic boom which we not only hear, but also FEEL its concussion.

This is not a chemical - combustion reaction... it is a physical - concussion reaction with enough concussive force to push a piston down.

Now, can we please get back to developing the best circuit which Luc started, and work together to focus on this ALONE.  There are a million other forums out there for awesome alternative energy systems, but extraneous to this particular thread.

As S1R's videos already showed, he IS running the Briggs & Straton engine on water ALONE.  We just don't know what components are in the silver painted "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container, which is what Luc felt he had a handle on, and started this thread.

PLEASE!  Let's work together and help each other moving forward with what Luc started and not deviate from the task at hand... to recreate the circuit in the "mystery container."  The rest of the project is already known.

Respectfully,
Geo
Hi Geo, you have a good understanding and many good points, is that really a "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container ;D

Let us not loose focused here ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 03:24:25 AM
Hi Stephan,

>Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

- My spark plug does not have any resistor. It measures 0 ohms.

> Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

- Most definately. But I would have never believed I could get water to explode on demand even with the 1-1.5 amp at 12 volts I am using. Seeing and hearing is believing guys. This is very real indeed and practically very simple to replicate once you understand the key requirements.

> It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

- The goal must be to come up with the best circuit for the least energy input. At this stage I don't know if this will mean it will be a capacitive discharge or power on demand circuit. I think that maybe a power on demand circuit with DC pulses at the correct frequency, pulse width and voltage may result in the least energy input. Plenty of lab work to do for all of us but because this is the first alternative energy system that I now believe is truly practical for the home experimenter to build and use, we need to stop all the speculation and guessing and theory and simply analyse technically what has been achieved practically as the overall system and process is very simple. So simple that if you are from a technical or scientific background, you would never beilieve it...

> Also, why is the spark blown out ?

- Simply because it is a very violent explosiong of the water. It is a true and real explosion indeed!!! What you are seeing that is poorly captured by the video is the extremly fast expanding gases of a violent explosion that also creates a loud bang like a fire cracker! It does have a red colour to the gas that does not get captured by the camera as well. I used my digital still camera which does video but no sound. If I get time I will try and capture it on my digital handy cam with the sound and better quality. Just a pain to capture it to PC and convert then upload to youtube but it is important to show.

> As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

- No. Why? The process is simply this and why it can easily be adapted to any combustion engine with a standard ignition system. All you need is a DC voltage supply of a few hundred volts, even just 100 volts, sitting across the spark plug in parallel with the car's normal and standard ignition system. Put water through the fuel system instead of petrol. When the normal HV spark from the standard ignition system occurs, it will ionise the air-water mixture between the spark plug gap and provide a conductive path for the DC voltage supply to flow. When the DC supply flows through the ionised air-water mixture, it instantaneously dissassociates the H2O and ignites the dissassociated hydrogen and oxygen gases. This explosion causes a violent expansion of the gases which pushes the engines cylinders down and drives the motor action of the engine in sequence.

- So the water does NOT burn. It explodes instantaneously and will continue to explode for every ignition pulse as long as there is moisture in the gap. When the moisture is gone there is no explosion. But it does not take much moisture and it seems that even a very humid rainy day may have enough moisture in the air for some small but limited ignitions. I am sure the current air humidity percentage will effect the efficiency of the overall process. Heat and steam work very well but is not needed as an external input as the spark plug gets so hot it starts to heat the moisture in the gap on it's own in a very short time. Please understand that I agree that this is unbelievable but now I am doing this on the lab bench and it is very real and very simple.

> Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

- Yes, exactly! The water itself explodes and is blowing out very voilently!

> In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

I don't know what is going on in that video but I don't think it really fit's in this very valuable thread. Luc well and truly needs a pat on the back.

> Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

- I have no doubt about it now. If you have read the pdf based on S1R9A9M9 work, I believe this can be done. He did it with little electronics knowledge and standard components and equipment. With just a little engineering, the whole process can be made so much more efficient and simple and applied to any combustion engine. The pdf can be found here.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/watercar.pdf

Regards,

Ossie
WOW :D Ossie, you are my hero. Thanks for the excellent written report and support. I knew it wasn't going to be an easy task to do but you are a God send to help this way.

Thank you thank you thank you, Amen

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Super God on June 29, 2008, 03:32:34 AM
I think we are very very close to getting to an all water ICE.  An idea I am tossing around right now I got from the waterfuel1978 group, use a transformer to combine signals and boost voltages.  Think about it, this could fit in that little tuna can and work very well!!!  Could it be this easy?  Why hasn't anyone found this out yet besides s1r and us?  Are we on the verge of a truly remarkable technology?  I THINK SO!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 03:36:56 AM
I think we are very very close to getting to an all water ICE.  An idea I am tossing around right now I got from the waterfuel1978 group, use a transformer to combine signals and boost voltages.  Think about it, this could fit in that little tuna can and work very well!!!  Could it be this easy?  Why hasn't anyone found this out yet besides s1r and us?  Are we on the verge of a truly remarkable technology?  I THINK SO!!
Hi Super God, glad you came by ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 29, 2008, 04:05:11 AM
Hi,
here are the 2 videos from the Youtube user s1r9a9m9,
who got his motor
already to run on water and this special spark plug system:

http://www.youtube.com/user/s1r9a9m9


The question is,
how much power he needs to run it.
As Ossi can run his system on 12 to around 20 Watts
of electrical input power, I wonder how big the mechanical output power is.

Looks good so far ! ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 04:21:31 AM
I have been studying s1r's video's which are provided as followed.

 Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb3d_hf7R10

 Video 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCl3OdM9Y4

 In the first video it shows his setup to be quite simple. It shows the coil wire going in to the container and then another lead going to the container coming from the inverter. I am assuming the wire coming from the inverter is a positive. There is only one wire coming out and it goes to the spark plug.

 The spark plug is shown having the one wire, coming from the container, attached to the spark plugs positive nipple and it has one wire attached to the negative base of the spark plug that is coming from the other wire of the inverter. I am assuming the wire attached to the spark plugs base is a negative from the inverter.
 
 It does show a third wire and it is coming from the positive nipple of the spark plug but after many replays, I find it to be short with the end bared but not attached to anything.

 After reviewing these videos many times, I believe there is only one component in the container and I believe it is some sort of a capacitor. I am not seeing anyway his setup can energize the water so that leads me to believe he has energized the water first. If you watch the beginning of the 2nd video closely, you will see him acting as if he is opening a "new" bottle of drinking water but if you look closely enough you will see that there is no way that bottle was new. It had been opened before and you can tell by the way he opens it. New bottles have a seal that has to be broke. Then if you notice, he is a little shy about taking the first drink. I believe that is because of the atheric affect that water gives off after being highly charged and it comes in to contact with other charges such as the ones our body's put off as seen in the next video.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

 After seeing s1r's videos, there is a more simple way then what has been provided thus far. The component s1r has in the container is the key to being able to simply Luc?s circuitry but even that may not be necessary when using a high voltage coil like most all the new vehicles use.

 Charging water can be done by running a positive and negative lead from a battery into a body of water. I am not sure if that charges water enough but I will experiment with it Monday when I get to the shop.

I maybe wrong but I have yet to come up with a better theory to support what has been discovered.

 All in all, we must figure this out and keep it open source so that all can benefit from it.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: carbully on June 29, 2008, 05:25:22 AM
According to s1r's comment on the yahoogroup the third wire coming from the top of the spark plug is to kill the engine, shorting out the spark when grounded.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 05:52:31 AM
Luc, please don't get upset if we discuss s1r's setup here because I feel it has a lot to do with this topic as well as what can be figured out about his setup can contribute to yours and this topic. The way yours setup is designed, it will take a extra timing sequence to energize the cap and I don?t see s1r?s set up having a second timing setup. This tells me that there must be a easier way and we should all study s1r?s setup to find out what it is.
 If you prefer, we can start a new thread and discuss his setup there. I just feel it would best to discuss them both here so that we can all stay on the same level.
 

carbully,
Quote
According to s1r's comment on the yahoogroup the third wire coming from the spark plug boot is to kill the engine, shorting out the spark.

 Do you have a link to the comment you speak of?  As for a third wire coming from the boot, I have yet to see a "boot" and there are only two wires attached to the nipple of the spark plug. The wire that comes from the nipple that is bared, may just be used to kill the motor. The only three wire configuration seen, are those attached to what ever is in the container.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: capacitor70 on June 29, 2008, 05:57:20 AM
What's the differance between http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html#new , two differant subjects .  ::) ???

Why new subject ?

See This It is same, but more powerful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBkqNc0GrQ
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on June 29, 2008, 06:20:20 AM
gotoluc,
  Thank You for being so generous in sharing all of the information to make this new source of energy available to everyone.
s1's post on waterfuel1978 recently spoke of 3 coils.  One primary and 2 secondaries.  Let' examine what he said.  Here is the post:


There are three windings on the coil, one main winding, one on each
side with deferent number of windings in each, the two windings on
each side are wound through the main winding , as 1 being a winding
and 2 being a winding and 0 being the main winding, it will look
like this 1-0-1_2-0-2. the windings are not touching each other but
they are wound through the main (0) winding, this replaces the double
coil set in the relay system. I will post the number of turns on each
winding as soon as I have all the info put together. None of the
windings have the same number of turns so the harmonics deffer when
current passes through them. This also is helping to block the 110v
from the 12v. This coil does not replace the HV coil on the vehicle.

S1R.


Maybe seeing this here will help some of you with sharp electronic skills to decipher what s1 is describing.

It shall not be long before many, many people will be converting their cars over to run on WATER! ;D

Is there a complete circuit diagram and a component list for all of us to view?

HATS OFF TO YOU GOTOLUC!!!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 06:22:03 AM
capacitor70, the two threads may be alike but I think more is being accomplished here. Neither of the two are replica's of s1r's and both are only attempts to duplicate what he has done. Lets all work together seeing that we all have the same goal.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: carbully on June 29, 2008, 06:37:45 AM
Nightlife,
 
Quote
Do you have a link to the comment you speak of?  As for a third wire coming from the boot, I have yet to see a "boot" and there are only two wires attached to the nipple of the spark plug. The wire that comes from the nipple that is bared, may just be used to kill the motor. The only three wire configuration seen, are those attached to what ever is in the container.

You are right there is no boot. I have edited my last post to delete the boot comment. Here is the link you asked for: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/message/5547

The black wire was for a cut off, if you look it dont go no where it
just hangs there, just touch this wire to the block and it kills the
spark to the plug. The hose was in the bottle about 2 inches.


This is post #5547 in the waterfuel1978 Yahoo group.

-carbully
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 29, 2008, 09:35:42 AM
Hey guys

I've been a silent reader of this site on and off for a while now. This one really has got my attention. When I first saw the vid, I thought 'so what? it's just a spark. Electricity does that with any spark gap' but then seeing how different it behaves without water did make me wonder.

I've got a couple of questions.

1) Is energy 'released' with the explosion? If so, is the amount of energy released greater than that fed into it by the battery?

2) How do petrol engines get the power for their spark? I'm guessing it's not the battery, since you can have two-stroke lawnmower engines that you start by hand and obviously have no battery. In these examples, it appears that current has to be constantly fed into them. That makes me wonder whether we're not just converting electricity into kinetic energy. I'm willing to be proven wrong on this.

3) (and this is the big one). If this is so simple, why has it not been done in the history of the ICE? I know it's a pretty naive way to be, but I've always found it impossible to create cool inventions since there's always someone who has beaten you to it. I can't believe that nobody else has discovered this before now. I know there are always stories about guys who built water-powered engines then died mysteriously, but surely at an industry level there must be companies who can figure this out.  We can put increasingly powerful computers on decreasingly small chips; we can design robots; build bridges bigger than people ever imagined, and yet we can't discover how to do this until now?

I'm not a skeptic at all. These are just questions I have come up with after following this thread lately. I really like how this is becoming an open source project.

Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 09:46:11 AM
Luc, please don't get upset if we discuss s1r's setup here because I feel it has a lot to do with this topic as well as what can be figured out about his setup can contribute to yours and this topic. The way yours setup is designed, it will take a extra timing sequence to energize the cap and I don?t see s1r?s set up having a second timing setup. This tells me that there must be a easier way and we should all study s1r?s setup to find out what it is.
 If you prefer, we can start a new thread and discuss his setup there. I just feel it would best to discuss them both here so that we can all stay on the same level.
 
Hi nightlife and everyone, please do fell free to discus the s1r's system since the circuit I posted is a replication attempt of his. The circuit I suggested is not like his but it does show a good effect.

I have noticed in s1r's (video 1) that one lead of the inverter output is going directly to the ground base of the plug and the other to the container, which would mean he is only rectifying one side of the inverter output. I have been testing a setup like this and was able to get it to work for a while with no capacitor, just a coil, also the spark light was very bright. I'll play around with it tomorrow since it is past 3am now, so that is it for me.

I'll post if I find anything new.

At everyone, please keep this topics only on s1r style replication, which would mean no capacitive bank discharge system since we know this is not in his system.

Thank you all for your input.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 29, 2008, 10:29:38 AM
gotoluc and all,

First time,Don't know what to say.
Accept check this ruff drawing and see if it lines up.
didn't take time to draw properly, I will if y'all want.
Also s1r original drawing attached maybe the poles
of the coils are touching the contacts when energized and giving
your pulsesing magnetic effect. that's how he drew it.
that makes it special. easy to duplicate.
Really neat stuff !

thanks,
mrock
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 29, 2008, 10:35:13 AM
Forgot this also.

thanks again,
mrock
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: capacitor70 on June 29, 2008, 10:47:32 AM
mrock 
   Diode ratings are correct 600V 60Amps ? Diodes are too big could not fit into can. ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 29, 2008, 10:58:33 AM
Thats s1r Diagram, mines in between.
he using newer of the shelf ones now,
im not sugesting that is what he use on
the video.

thanks,
mrock
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on June 29, 2008, 01:00:13 PM
@gotoluc and All

This is very exciting.  Many, many thanks to S1r and Luc picking up on it.  This is power for the little guy.  Even an old mechanic like me could give this a try.  Unfortunately, I am a long ways from home.  I will have to sit on the sidelines and be a cheerleader for you all.

In regards to engines to modify:
There are many 2-stroke weed eaters laying around.  But I recommend a 4-stroke engine.  Two cycle engines get their lube from oil being mixed with gas.  On only water, it will quickly burn up!  You could try and mix some soluble oil in with the water to lube the bearings.  It will be better than nothing if you go the two cycle way. 

Good luck to all

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 29, 2008, 03:57:01 PM
Have any try this ?

its work?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=hMEFPgaNj9U&NR=1  100% Hyfrogen car

Gustav Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 04:41:54 PM
Have any try this ?

its work?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=hMEFPgaNj9U&NR=1  100% Hyfrogen car

Gustav Pese
Hi Pese,

4 posts above your post I asked everyone, please keep this topics only on s1r style replication.

Your idea could be good but is off topic. I am surprised you would of posted this here. Can you please delete your post and start a new topic on this since we are looking at a ways to change water to a fuel in the combustion chamber here and your idea is very different.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2008, 04:55:30 PM
too much bs ....

u need my cap charger  ;D  or a neo relay vibarting spark gap   to make things much simpler....


ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 29, 2008, 05:34:02 PM
Hi All,

Please see my two new videos here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I believe I have replicated a setup that does the same thing as s1r9a9m9 shows in his videos. I believe the setup configuration can allow a combustion engine to be run on water only instead of petrol/gas through the same fuel system on the engine.

In my videos, you will see I am now replicating an engine's ignition system using a signal generator switching a transistor driver that pulses an ignition coil at 20 Hz. This is powered seperately by a small 12V battery although the sig gen is powered from mains power.

I am now using a 300W 12-240V DC to AC inverter to charge up a small capacitor that is effectively in parallel with the spark plug via some diodes. The system works very well, as you can see in the video and only uses 2-2.5 amps on the inverter's input.

With this new setup I was again surprised to find that even after running it continuously for 15 minutes, the spark plug is stone cold to the touch. The water explosions are cold and there is no heat that I can feel. I cannot explain this and my assumption that it was hot and warmed up the water was incorrect. It is a cold explosion or the explosion itself cools the plug tremendously through very fast evaporation of the water. So it would seem that because the explosions may actually cool the cylinder, external heating to assist the humidity and moisture content of the air may be required after all for cooler climates. Also, there is no smell whatsoever and only cold moisture around the spark plug.

Please see following a circuit diagram of my latest setup and some pictures.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 29, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
mrock: great diagram! I think you might have nailed S1r setup. Now we just need the right turns for for the coils and such  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mark69 on June 29, 2008, 05:44:00 PM
@ Luc and all,

When u guys get this figured out pretty well, can you make a diagram that is easily understood for those of us that do not have any electrical background?  I mean you will need to spell everything out specifically, for me, at least.  I dont know what the different symbols mean and such.  Keep up the great work!!!

MArk
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 06:24:31 PM
Hi everyone, this circuit idea came to me :).  I did not test it wet but what do you all think ::)

I have to go out for a few hours but I'll check when I come back.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on June 29, 2008, 06:31:48 PM
Hi All,
....
In my videos, you will see I am now replicating an engine's ignition system using a signal generator switching a transistor driver that pulses an ignition coil at 20 Hz. This is powered seperately by a small 12V battery although the sig gen is powered from mains power.

I am now using a 300W 12-240V DC to AC inverter to charge up a small capacitor that is effectively in parallel with the spark plug via some diodes. The system works very well, as you can see in the video and only uses 2-2.5 amps on the inverter's input.

Please see following a circuit diagram of my latest setup and some pictures.

Regards,

Ossie


On your circuit there is "90V Neon" what is that neon lamp?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 29, 2008, 06:43:04 PM
@ Luc and all,

When u guys get this figured out pretty well, can you make a diagram that is easily understood for those of us that do not have any electrical background?  I mean you will need to spell everything out specifically, for me, at least.  I dont know what the different symbols mean and such.  Keep up the great work!!!

MArk


Mark 

At this  site 

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/

Chapter  12   is basic  electronics  from  the  viewpoint of   a free energy  expermenter
Once  you  study that chapter you  should  be able to  follow MOST of the  stuff on  this  site .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 07:37:18 PM
Is it possible that s1r could be using a pump start relay and that is what is in the container?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 29, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
@ Luc

I apologize for my previous post as I did not read enough and it was not relevant to your experiment.

I would like to propose that the next step (after successful replication) be to replicate the effect in a closed atmosphere (with some sort of pressure gauge) to measure the energy produced by the radical disassociation of the water by plasma.

I thinking of a cheap clear plastic soda bottle with the label peeled off, a modified spark plug "screwed" into the side, a pressure gauge in the lid/cap, and a way to introduce water mist into the air tight atmosphere of the bottle.

I will try to replicate your schematic and do this (I will need the help of a ham radio friend to realize the electronics).

A very exciting effect, and I hope to contribute good factual data to your discovery.

:D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 29, 2008, 08:10:08 PM
EXX  A chamber to compare fuel [gasoline]Versus the effect would probably be more productive attaching a plenum to plug base should be relatively easy with a pop cork and air dial [presure]gauge   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sigmaX on June 29, 2008, 08:28:29 PM
Hi Everyone!

Congratulations to everybody that is actively suggesting ideas and replicating! I am reading in awe, how, very probably, history might be changed by all you people!! Please don?t forget to sleep a bit ! Ideas will be clearer!

How about water quality ? What kind of watter supply are you using to spray over the spark ?

Maybe someone can use different types of water and see if any difference in explosion is perceived ?

Like: Distilled water, mineral water, tap water, ocean water (salt), etc.

If I am correct, the best water would probably be the one used for HHO (with some electrolytes) or even distilled water ? (I am thinking long term, motor abuse, in here).

Regards,

SigmaX

p.d. On monday, I will try to replicate this for myself. Everything is closed down here, and I am missing the whole setup (got to buy everything!!)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xee on June 29, 2008, 08:31:49 PM
@ callanan,
Did you remove the resistor from the spark plug? It is hard to believe that the resistor would not get hot and heat up the plug. Great documentation. Thanks.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 08:57:48 PM
sigmaX, page 42 of the following link gives us results from testing done. It shows ocean water having the highest BTU rating and lake/reservoir having the second highest.

 It also shows the break down % of oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen of each of the different waters tested.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bigblue on June 29, 2008, 10:28:06 PM
Luc,

        I was still searching on the firestorm plasma sparkplugs and come up with this link, at sounds like Robert Krupa has tried the plasma spark in the chamber with water. Here is his email----interesting choice in words   flamefromwater@yahoo.com  and here is a link from a gentleman that was working with Robert last fall,   http://www.worldwidescam.info/rattewater.htm        May the  GOD of Abraham bless this project........jeff
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 29, 2008, 10:43:47 PM
Luc: i saw you new diagram. That is much more like S1r's. But i saw something that didnt look right to me, i made a change on your image, let me know if i am right  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on June 29, 2008, 11:02:02 PM
@Callanan

You are really on top of this.  I commend you on your work. 
From my point of view, there are two possibilities for the plug to be cold:

It is an implosion, not an explosion.
It is negative (cold) electricity.

It may be both.  The implosion leads to the negative electricity being generated. 

In reading the PDF file you posted on the s1r, no one seems to have caught on that there is a power amplification here.  The "Effective Circuit" diagram shows the high voltage coil with 34,000 volts @ .38 amps = 12,920 VA.  But, going to the plug we have 24,000 volts @ 6.3 amps = 151,200 VA.  This gives us a gain factor of 11.7 times.  The magic of the spark gap has allowed the high voltage source to piggyback the amps of the low voltage source.  Is this the secret of the Gray engine?  His spark gap with clever circuits is allowing the same thing to happen?  Is the secret of cold electricity the combining of High voltage low amps with low voltage high amps by use of a spark gap?

After we get our cars running on water, we should be thinking of making pulse motors to drive the car like Gray did and do away with the ICE forever?
As long as I am dreaming, dream big!

To see if there really is a power factor gain, you could run some wires from your plug to a large neon sign transformer in reverse.  In other words, the high voltage will be the input and it will drop the voltage down to a usable level.  If you could run it at 50 or 60 cycles per second, we can test with motors or light bulbs and see what we get.  If you could put a capacitor inline as a series resonant circuit, it will help generate a good sine wave from the pulses.  A large cap at these voltages would be really dangerous and I don't know if you want to do this?   Maybe this will lead to a home power plant?

I Hope I am not grasping at straws and there is something here.

Good luck to all
Chris


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 11:07:12 PM
Luc: i saw you new diagram. That is much more like S1r's. But i saw something that didnt look right to me, i made a change on your image, let me know if i am right  ;)
Hi xbox hacker and everyone, I'm back home now but I think I posted the circuit in too much of a hurry before going out. Let me think about this again. I had a clear idea but my EE skills are not as good as my thoughts.

I'll get back to you on this.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 11:28:44 PM
Hi All,

Please see my two new videos here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I believe I have replicated a setup that does the same thing as s1r9a9m9 shows in his videos. I believe the setup configuration can allow a combustion engine to be run on water only instead of petrol/gas through the same fuel system on the engine.

In my videos, you will see I am now replicating an engine's ignition system using a signal generator switching a transistor driver that pulses an ignition coil at 20 Hz. This is powered seperately by a small 12V battery although the sig gen is powered from mains power.

I am now using a 300W 12-240V DC to AC inverter to charge up a small capacitor that is effectively in parallel with the spark plug via some diodes. The system works very well, as you can see in the video and only uses 2-2.5 amps on the inverter's input.

With this new setup I was again surprised to find that even after running it continuously for 15 minutes, the spark plug is stone cold to the touch. The water explosions are cold and there is no heat that I can feel. I cannot explain this and my assumption that it was hot and warmed up the water was incorrect. It is a cold explosion or the explosion itself cools the plug tremendously through very fast evaporation of the water. So it would seem that because the explosions may actually cool the cylinder, external heating to assist the humidity and moisture content of the air may be required after all for cooler climates. Also, there is no smell whatsoever and only cold moisture around the spark plug.

Please see following a circuit diagram of my latest setup and some pictures.

Regards,

Ossie
WOW Ossie, I did not have enough time to check your post before going out but just now I looked at your video and it looks great ;)

Thank you for making this better once again ;D as I said before, you are my hero.

It's very cool 8) that it stays COOL.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 11:34:41 PM
@ Luc

I apologize for my previous post as I did not read enough and it was not relevant to your experiment.

I would like to propose that the next step (after successful replication) be to replicate the effect in a closed atmosphere (with some sort of pressure gauge) to measure the energy produced by the radical disassociation of the water by plasma.

I thinking of a cheap clear plastic soda bottle with the label peeled off, a modified spark plug "screwed" into the side, a pressure gauge in the lid/cap, and a way to introduce water mist into the air tight atmosphere of the bottle.

I will try to replicate your schematic and do this (I will need the help of a ham radio friend to realize the electronics).

A very exciting effect, and I hope to contribute good factual data to your discovery.

:D
Hi exxcomm0n, at the speed Ossie is going he may just install it strait to the cumbustion engine.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on June 29, 2008, 11:36:57 PM
Hi Ossie,

Great circuit design!  We here in the US do not have 220-240 50 Hz mains nor use 220-240 VAC 50 Hz inverters.  Not being an electrical circuit design person, can you draw the same circuit you graciously gave us only using 12 VDC to 110-120 VAC 60 Hz inverter.  Also, is the signal generator powered by 220-240 VAC mains required for this to work?  Please post to the forum or email me.

Thank you in advance,
Geo
geovel56@yahoo.com
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lefferdink on June 30, 2008, 12:03:03 AM
Will there be any newer diagrams & or parts where you can go to the candy store and purchase them; like the inverter?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 12:03:31 AM
Hi everyone, if you want a 220v inverter they are available on eBay ;D

Here is one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Car-500W-DC-12V-to-AC-220V-One-USB2-0-Power-Inverter_W0QQitemZ270250238287QQihZ017QQcategoryZ31510QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one in the USA: http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-DC-TO-AC-POWER-INVERTER-ADAPTOR-CONVERTER-300W-220V_W0QQitemZ140244494981QQihZ004QQcategoryZ79816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and here is a list them: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=220v+inverter&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&fgtp=

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 12:06:56 AM
Great circuit design!  We here in the US do not have 220-240 50 Hz mains nor use 220-240 VAC 50 Hz inverters.  Not being an electrical circuit design person, can you draw the same circuit you graciously gave us only using 12 VDC to 110-120 VAC 60 Hz inverter.  Also, is the signal generator powered by 220-240 VAC mains required for this to work?  Please post to the forum or email me.


The drawing shows a voltage doubling circuit.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 12:12:38 AM
The drawing shows a voltage doubling circuit.

Regards, Larry
Hi Larry, glad ;D to  see you here. Thanks for the circuit.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kremlin01 on June 30, 2008, 12:20:43 AM
Hi Luc, great stuff, looks like another sleepless night for me.
Question, do you folks ever sleep?

Regards, Bren.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 12:36:49 AM
Hi Larry, glad ;D to  see you here. Thanks for the circuit.


Thanks, you're doing a great job of administrating this thread. Getting my act together, that's why I had the circuit. I have a big killer cap that's been gathering dust for years, 690MFD at 450 VDC. It's bigger than the ignition coil! Thanks for giving me an excuse to use it.

I plan on using the variac with a 12 to 120 transformer, so I should be able to set it at 400 with no problem. I'll be careful, but if you don't here from me again you'll know why.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 12:43:10 AM
UPDATE!!!!!!!! ;D

Drop the bridges you dont need them!! here is a diagram of my working circuit!!!!!
IT WORKS!!!!!
Keep you spark gap @ .050 - .060... too small and the inverter bogs down @ .050 and up it runs normal!

It has a nice BRIGHT flash and a big SNAP! I do have a video camera, but no way to get too to the computer (i am working on that now)  ;)

ALSO... dont try to gap the plug with a metal gap-er while the inverter is on....LOL....OUCH!!  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 30, 2008, 12:52:25 AM
Hi Ossi,
great new tests and circuit.

Did you already take any scope shots of your 10 uF cap voltage ?

How does the voltage on the cap fall during the sparking ?

Maybe if you have a high voltage scope head can you also
show the voltage at the spark plug directly ?

Be carefull not to kill your scope with the high voltage
spikes...



@Luc,
your new circuit makes not much sense to me.

The effect is, that a high voltage spike from the ignition coil
creates a ionized conductive channel for the low voltage cap charge
to be discharged and instantly creating steam and electrolysed HHO,
which burns off in a Bang...

So Ossi?s circuit is exactly right,
just charge up a capacitor and trigger the sparkgap with
high voltage to make the sparkgap conductive, so the cap can
discharge in an instant and can evapourate and electrolyse the water droplets.

Because of the evapouration and the heat it consumes the sparkplug probably stays pretty cold
as Ossi has found out.

Now the question is,
if we can make this also on a bigger area, not just on the tiny small
contact point of the sparkplug...

If we could explode and evapourate the water droplets on maybe 2 x 2 inches
altogether, that would really give a nice explosion cell !

The question is, if the best application for it is
really inside a cylinder to propell a piston or
if it could also be used in other way, e.g. via the idea
of a MHD generator to produce electricity...


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 12:57:47 AM
xbox hacker, good job. That set up I could see being in s1r's container.



 Luc, can you confirm it for us as to working as desired?

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vince on June 30, 2008, 01:05:49 AM
Hi Gotoluc

Great work!

I tried a simple test to see if I could get the water to "burn" and it wasn't that hard to do. I used a small TV chassis to feed High voltage to a pair of microwave capacitors wired in parallel and then to a spark plug with the resistor removed. It would charge the capacitors and discharge at it's own frequency with a very strong white spark.  When I sprayed water on it (FINE MIST) it would flash a bright orange flame much larger than the original spark.  The effect lasts for several other sparks until the water burns off.
I am truly amazed that a simple high voltage setup can actually flash water.

Here is my setup.

http://picasaweb.google.com/vincemormile/WaterTest/photo?authkey=gITG9gFcghI#5217442680332392498

Vince
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 01:25:40 AM
UPDATE!!!!!!!! ;D

Drop the bridges you dont need them!! here is a diagram of my working circuit!!!!!
IT WORKS!!!!!
Keep you spark gap @ .050 - .060... too small and the inverter bogs down @ .050 and up it runs normal!

It has a nice BRIGHT flash and a big SNAP! I do have a video camera, but no way to get too to the computer (i am working on that now)  ;)

ALSO... dont try to gap the plug with a metal gap-er while the inverter is on....LOL....OUCH!!  ::)

That is very good if you're getting results with this even more simple circuit. Can you measure the DC resistance and henries (if you have a meter) of the primary of the coil and post it please. I think that will also play a part here.

Great job there xbox hacker

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 01:33:31 AM
Hi Gotoluc

Great work!

I tried a simple test to see if I could get the water to "burn" and it wasn't that hard to do. I used a small TV chassis to feed High voltage to a pair of microwave capacitors wired in parallel and then to a spark plug with the resistor removed. It would charge the capacitors and discharge at it's own frequency with a very strong white spark.  When I sprayed water on it (FINE MIST) it would flash a bright orange flame much larger than the original spark.  The effect lasts for several other sparks until the water burns off.
I am truly amazed that a simple high voltage setup can actually flash water.

Here is my setup.

http://picasaweb.google.com/vincemormile/WaterTest/photo?authkey=gITG9gFcghI#5217442680332392498

Vince

Hi Vince, good for you :D I think we will find many possible variations on this basic circuit idea.

Keep up the good work ;D and find what you can do with this circuit, like can you light fluorecent bulbs with it and how many.

Have fun and play safe and thank for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 01:39:55 AM
@Luc,
your new circuit makes not much sense to me.

The effect is, that a high voltage spike from the ignition coil
creates a ionized conductive channel for the low voltage cap charge
to be discharged and instantly creating steam and electrolysed HHO,
which burns off in a Bang...

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan, yes I know my circuit is flawed. I had a quick vision and tried to transfer it in electronics in a hurry just before going out for some hours. As I said before my electronic skills are not strong. What I will do is write my thoughts and someone else can create the circuit.


At anyone and everyone, please share this topic with everyone you have in your email address book and ask them to do the same regardless of what you think. We need this out to the World.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on June 30, 2008, 01:46:07 AM
I realise that the ultimate goal is to replace petrol/gas entirely, but seeing as 99% of cars will need their timing retarded, (non-trivial, especially as 99% of cars on the road are of the newer variety) wouldn't this idea on its own result in a significant increase in mpg?  It would be much easier to test on a real car engine as well...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 01:49:37 AM
VIDEO UPDATE!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuK80kL6O64

I am so soorrry about the quality, its from a phone....LOL  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 02:00:59 AM
xbox hacker,
Quote
VIDEO UPDATE!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuK80kL6O64


 What is the excessive clicking noise in the back ground? It doesn't match the time of the spark and I hear more clicks then I see sparks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Super God on June 30, 2008, 02:01:39 AM
I'm glad to see that we are finally onto something awesome, the s1r9a9m9 system and not boosters which has been done to death.  Not that boosters are bad by any means.  We may very well need some boosters to smooth out engine performance down the line.  By the way, did you hear that jcbx of waterfuel1978 got his volvo running on water?  There's two.  Who's next?  RACE I SAY!  Haha.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 02:03:59 AM
I realise that the ultimate goal is to replace petrol/gas entirely, but seeing as 99% of cars will need their timing retarded, (non-trivial, especially as 99% of cars on the road are of the newer variety) wouldn't this idea on its own result in a significant increase in mpg?  It would be much easier to test on a real car engine as well...

Hi Sprocket, thanks for looking at this topic. That is true what you are saying but it would be vary easy to make a circuit all in one box that all you do is unplug your spark plug wires and plug them in this box which will have the new wires that you will plug back in your spark plugs and turn the knob to the timing that works best and you are ready to go. If you want to burn gas that would be your choice.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 02:07:40 AM
By the way, did you hear that jcbx of waterfuel1978 got his volvo running on water?  There's two.  Who's next?  RACE I SAY!  Haha.

Hi SG, is he sharing his circuit? and if not then why?

Please invite him here to share.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 02:21:06 AM
xbox hacker,

 What is the excessive clicking noise in the back ground? It doesn't match the time of the spark and I hear more clicks then I see sparks.

that sound is me slapping the jumper cable on the positive terminal of the coil...i dont have a momentary switch to put in line. I had put the ever most smallest amount of water on the plug. I am in south Florida, its high humidity on film day and just started to rain. I was still trying to get a arc sfter the water was gone.... Luc had the same results in his video ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 02:23:42 AM
Super God: i dont think he is running the car on the system, but just useing the cars ignition to make the spark... here is his video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYGgMuFZUs
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 02:31:50 AM
that sound is me slapping the jumper cable on the positive terminal of the coil...i dont have a momentary switch to put in line. I had put the ever most smallest amount of water on the plug. I am in south Florida, its high humidity on film day and just started to rain. I was still trying to get a arc sfter the water was gone.... Luc had the same results in his video ;)

xbox hacker, I know you're happy about the results and I am also happy of your findings but I think we are seeing here that we can have many variations of this circuit. So before we decide which one is a S1R replication we will need to do more tests. So lets take the time needed to better understand what we have here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 03:02:05 AM
Schematic update!!

extra diode for inverter protection. I dont have any, so results will have to wait till tomorrow.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 30, 2008, 03:03:51 AM
The drawing shows a voltage doubling circuit.

Regards, Larry

ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 30, 2008, 03:07:31 AM
Schematic update!!

extra diode for inverter protection. I dont have any, so results will have to wait till tomorrow.

CAN NOT WORK.

ONE of the 2 Diodes tat was wired to the invert , from them
is minimum ONE in wrong direction (polarity)

Also 2 Diodes not becessara- oneis enough
Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 03:15:06 AM
xbox hacker,  I don?t recall a diode in between the inverter and the spark plug on the one lead. Why do you feel one placed in between is necessary?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 30, 2008, 03:26:51 AM
xbox hacker,  I don?t recall a diode in between the inverter and the spark plug on the one lead. Why do you feel one placed in between is necessary?
Both diode will give only positive DC to both end of spark.
Will not work, because current corcle is not closed. (open)
if upper diode  is used as shon.
the lower one  in reverse   or onmitted  (only wired without diode) than this part of circuit is OK
Gustav Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: amigo on June 30, 2008, 03:31:31 AM
ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx

Perhaps he meant this one... ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 03:31:38 AM
got water ??   lol

great work guys!!!

i just cant stop with the suggestions   sorry guys....

but here is 1 more

so this is cold electricty we play with here

the way i see it is this ...  we need to use a tiny bit of HOT ELECTRICTY ...  to create a LOT OF COLD ELECTRICTY and use the cold electricty  to burn the water...

pluse a tranny collect the bemf send it to the input of the ignition coil amp it with the coil burn the water

no ??

add 1 more unit with out the spark plugg  discharge ign coil to pos of deep cycle batt no??

this set up should use only 1 diode  on the out put of the tranny a microwave diode ....

ist

so we need to make a magnetic feild...   and we collect the  colapse of the feild and it powers the ign coil  ;) depending on how this is configured  it can recharge the source battery or cap and it can send the hot and cold  power out as 1 or bounce the hot back to its source and only use the cold  and if you could collect the hot that was sent back in a cap you could reuse the first charge.......

 ;D   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 03:34:33 AM
ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx

Sorry pese, found the circuit in an old electronics book while looking for a 120 to 240 method to use for this project. It is usually correct, you did have a 25% increase so it must be partially working.  Are your caps rated to handle 240V, if so try 120V in? I'll try some testing tomorrow to check it out. If it doesn't work, there is other designs that I can check out.

@amigo,

Thanks, that is one of the other designs, but the one I showed was supposed to be the most efficient.

@pese

Would you try amigo's design as a reference? Thanks.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 03:37:00 AM
xbox hacker,  I don?t recall a diode in between the inverter and the spark plug on the one lead. Why do you feel one placed in between is necessary?
Your right, but...

With the battery powering the inverter and the inverter hooked up as shown in the first schematic, it works on the bench. But i thought... the negative terminal on the coil and the negative side of the battery (in a car) should be connected at all times. So i clamped the neg jumper cable to the neg side of the coil, hooked up the system as shown in my first schematic, turned on the inverter....nothing so far .... then took the positive jumper cable to tap it on the positive side of the coil to make the arc at the plug...and BLAM...invert took a dump! LOL I replaced the fuse, and applied power to the inverter and it started to smoke! So its dun! I will get a new one tomorrow. No big deal. it was $25 new...lol

So i hope it will not fry a new one with the added diode...MORE TESTING TO COME!!

Quote
CAN NOT WORK.

ONE of the 2 Diodes tat was wired to the invert , from them
is minimum ONE in wrong direction (polarity)

Also 2 Diodes not becessara- oneis enough
Pese
Thats what you would think...but it did work as shown in rev2... i still got a good plasma arc, if i flip the diode on the very bottom of the schematic the other way, then it does not work at all!! i only have a 1n4002...i need to full test with a 1n4007 (to feel safe ;) )
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: caz on June 30, 2008, 03:37:47 AM
Luc, Outstanding sharing, Thank you!!! I'm working on replicating your example and watching all this come together with great interest. Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 03:47:26 AM
xbox hacker,
Quote
then took the positive jumper cable to tap it on the positive side of the coil to make the arc at the plug...and BLAM...invert took a dump! LOL I replaced the fuse, and applied power to the inverter and it started to smoke! So its dun!

 Well that?s a lesson for us all to learn from. LOL

 Now I see why you are thinking of using the other diode.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 04:02:48 AM
Luc, Outstanding sharing, Thank you!!! I'm working on replicating your example and watching all this come together with great interest. Chris

Welcome Chris, please keep us up to date with your findings and remember for you to share this with everyone you know :)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 04:17:19 AM
WELL i feel it is very important to try and establish just how much power is produced by a normal combustion    I have done this many times over the years for the 4th of july in an open chamber     will enclose bang in a large plenum to start [with psi gauge] and standard fuel injector [set for idle] I will try to use readily available components for easy replication     unless we have a target[an idea of how much power [psi in this case] a normal ICE spark makes} we will just be chasing our tails   hopefully i can get this done tomorrow and post results and Pix  Chet  PS  IF anybody knows this info already please tell me
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 30, 2008, 04:27:14 AM
xbox hacker,

You need a 6 amp 6A10 diode.

thanks,
mrock

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 04:33:02 AM
All,

People are overcomplicating the circuit and process for nothing. It is VERY SIMPLE to get water to explode with little energy input in the spark plug discharge of an ignition system. All that is needed is a small cap of a few hundred volts and a few uf and a high CURRENT high voltage diode, placed in series across the spark plug. You can use WHATEVER to charge the cap to a few hundred volts DC. An inverter, oscillator, anything.

All you need to do is make sure that the series loop of the capacitor, diode and spark plug is very very low resistance. In fact as low as you can get it for your components. The lower the resistance of this loop, the lower the energy input requirement is to make the water explode. It is possible to do this with even a few hundred milliamps.

The key component here is the diode. It MUST be a HV diode to protect the capacitor and power supply from shunting the ignition pulse but it also MUST be a HIGH CURRENT diode to reduce the series loop resistance as much as possible. A microwave diode is a good HV diode but it is NOT a good high current diode. The diode must be able to handle very short surges in the hundreds of amps! This is why I use many 1N5404 diodes in series. These are 400V 4 amp diodes they can handle surges in the hundreds of amps. Putting them in series turns them into a single HV diode capable of handling thousands of volts. If you have many microwave oven diodes then put as many as you got in parallel. But they are expensive so it is much more cost effective to simply use many 1N5404 diodes in series or series parallel combinations.

As I have explained the circuit requirement and operation to explode water in an ignition is very simple. So simply that no one will believe it but it just is. S1r9a9m9's circuit uses heavy 60 amp diodes but is too complicated and not necessary. His use of coils is simply to get the same effect as a capacitor, just in an inverse reactive way.

There is no energy gain in this circuit! The in his circuit the measured difference between 36K 0.8 amp input and 24K 6amp output is just what his meters are showing when the ignition pulse and the inverter pulse is mixed. It is NOT real power. The real power and energy and magic is the the water explosion itself. This is the only place in this circuit where something unconventional is occurring.

The energy appears the be negative in this explosion.

Ossie




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 04:33:45 AM
ONCE a PSI value for normal combustion is established   replacing the plug with one of these circuits[and water instead of gas] will tell us how much power we have compared to normal ICE spark  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on June 30, 2008, 04:37:55 AM
Been following the S1R water car for awhile now. Glad I came across this site and this particular post. I have very little understanding of electronics but I have great mechanical/fabrication skills. I tried replicating callanan's first diagram he posted and cannot get it to work for me. I get no high voltage spark unless I unhook either side of the bridge rectifier. I don't have enough electrical knowledge to know what's going on with it but if somebody will post up a simple design that actually works then I can have this on a small engine in a flash and see what happens.

Gimme the electrical and I'll do the mechanical basically is what I'm saying then I'll post a video if it's successful.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on June 30, 2008, 04:52:47 AM
UPDATE!!!!!!!! ;D

Drop the bridges you dont need them!! here is a diagram of my working circuit!!!!!
IT WORKS!!!!!
Keep you spark gap @ .050 - .060... too small and the inverter bogs down @ .050 and up it runs normal!

It has a nice BRIGHT flash and a big SNAP! I do have a video camera, but no way to get too to the computer (i am working on that now)  ;)

ALSO... dont try to gap the plug with a metal gap-er while the inverter is on....LOL....OUCH!!  ::)

Hi Xbox,

Your circuit will work for a while, then the inverter will blow.  When the air/water ionizes, there is a dead short across the inverter output.  The only thing saving your inverter right now is the considerable voltage drop, 1/2 wave rectification across the Microwave diode and that is what is keeping your inverter alive. 

The beauty of your circuit is its simplicity and it is technically correct but it is just a pure brute force inductive supply with no limiting of current.  Design wise, will give you trouble down the road.  As pulse rate increases to coil, it will become a hit and miss mess as no syncronization with pulses from inverter.......For a basic demonstration unit, a good idea, as a motor driver, no banana.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:01:58 AM
OSSIE seeing first hand the effect   what do you think is going on here combustion? like the MEYER spark plug ?  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 05:05:09 AM
k4zep, reading your last comment, I am assuming you are very familiar with circuitry and I for one would like you to study this next video and tell us what you think is in the container. It would be most appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb3d_hf7R10


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 05:21:51 AM
Hi ramset,

I have no idea what Meyer did with his spark plug. I know he wound up being able to pump water straight into it. But if Meyer unltimately wound up doing what we are doing, then it makes sense that he kept it so secret and may have even been killed for it because it really is pretty simple and when people catch on, everyone will be doing it.

I have other people reporting to me now their successfull replications of how I am doing it. They are all confirming the explosion of the water and how there is no heat! We are all bewildered abut this. But I have done pressure tests with tubes and pipes around the spark plug that fire out a projectile and it is definately an explosion and not an implosion as gases are expanding out from the ignition point, very, very fast.

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:30:06 AM
Ossie that is very good news  that makes the effect much more useful [perhaps home heating] tomorrow I will build a test chamber  for the normal ICE   then  Compare data  thankyou for the reply will share all Chet 
well just reread your post no heat ? queer  I saw a vid from a fellow Chris had flame 10 inches in the air   this is going to be wild
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 05:41:10 AM
Hi ramset,

I said it is an explosion and the result is expanding gases very fast but I said nothing about heat! The explosion is cold! No heat! Forget about your heating plans with this. This is cold kinetic energy. I don't know about water plasma flames but I do remember that you can run your hand through a pure HHO flame without getting burnt. Those were the days of Brown's gas...

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 06:01:30 AM
Ossie yes I reread your post and saw this   did an edit   However you know browns gas then you know about burning titanium still hope for the house  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on June 30, 2008, 06:37:04 AM
Hi ramset,

I said it is an explosion and the result is expanding gases very fast but I said nothing about heat! The explosion is cold! No heat! Forget about your heating plans with this. This is cold kinetic energy. I don't know about water plasma flames but I do remember that you can run your hand through a pure HHO flame without getting burnt. Those were the days of Brown's gas...

Ossie


Hi Ossie, I came across this postulation from SirHoax: SHOCKWAVE, i.e. Kinetic energy not Heat energy
Quote
Currently I came across some designs for making water explode but without a hydrogen electrolysis process. By generating a plasma electrical wave you can ignite water at rates of 4500 Meters a Second. It creates an extremely strong shock wave through the air.

Another aspect of this theory is that you can mist water into your cylinders, or a cold water vapor. Then generate a plasma spark ignition with a standard spark plug or a firestorm plug of some sort. This video is evidence that a plasma ignition in water will make a shock wave and in turn the ability to explode water inside your cylinder.
from his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9NvboKL43Q
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 06:56:46 AM
@ ossie

it is real power  just cold....  to make it use able as we currently use power just convert it to hot

how is this done?? 

i would think in reverse to how we make it  ;)

ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on June 30, 2008, 07:18:40 AM
How would you folks like to rock the world,

Lawn mower motors and old Camaro's are wonderful but if you want to change the world think ''Transportation''

I am talking about the big trucks that move our food and just about everything else we use on a daily basis at four dollars a gallon plus here in the states this has shot the price of food to record levels,

Based on what I have been seeing here the concept and electronics are well on the way to being sorted out.

Rudolf had it right, he created an engine that would run on any thing that contained calories, but he missed H20.

Anyone here willing or able to to take on the conversion of a diesel motor.

I would start with a modified glo plug as a ignitior. The only other issue I see is the injector pump timeing.

But that's what I think.

Be Well
Tinker

 

 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 30, 2008, 07:47:15 AM
moved to diesel  thread
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 07:54:48 AM
Tinker and other HHO for diesel design seekers, I have started a new thread to focus on HHO set up's for diesel engines to help keep this thread focused on the topic that it was started for. The new thread link is as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5045.msg108993/topicseen.html#msg108993
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: carbully on June 30, 2008, 07:58:07 AM
Hey, Xbox hacker:

I am not an EE, but I am an ASE certified auto technician. I notice that in your most recent schematics you are "triggering" the HV ignition coil on the positive feed to the ignition coil's primary winding. This may work on a bench setup, but in a car you will find that the positive feed to the HV ignition coil's primary winding is not triggered, only switched on/off by the ignition switch. The HV ignition coil is triggered by making/breaking the negative side of the coil's primary winding to ground in an automotive application. Older cars used a set of "points" to do this, and newer cars use solid-state electronics to control a heavy transistor to make/break the primary winding's ground.

The only exception to this that I am aware of is some old British cars and a few older tractors.

So, where your schematics show that you are grounding the primary winding at the spark plug, in a car you will be grounding it either througn a set of points or through an ignition module.

-carbully
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 30, 2008, 07:58:35 AM
moved to the  diesel thread
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on June 30, 2008, 09:18:09 AM
Hi Ossie, I came across this postulation from SirHoax: SHOCKWAVE, i.e. Kinetic energy not Heat energyfrom his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9NvboKL43Q
Great Video.

The first thing that came to my mind with this process, is pulsed jets, as in pulsed jet engines. What a hoot, pulsed plasma / water powered jet engines.  :D

KneeDeep
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 10:22:42 AM
Has anyone thought of using a modern automotive coil. New coils pack a punch that can kill a person. The one Luc and others are shown using only produce about 40,000 volts and there are some new ones that produce 60,000 + volts. I also think the newer ones provide more amperage as well.

 I will test a few tomorrow to see if there is any difference in the spark with having the resistor removed from the plug.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on June 30, 2008, 10:34:09 AM
Hoptoad. Me too, even drew one on Friday, adapting a big turbo with a coil system mounted to the shaft between the turbines. Lol.

Anyway. Here is a couple of things to consider on the big day.
Is the explosion softer (slower acceleration front than petroleum / air) or harder (faster than petroleum air)? I guess we will find out when ignition timing is optimised. 
Also (and this might be very important) Static CR. I don't think we have to worry about pre-ignition. So, assuming the power output is < equal to a petroleum air explosion event. We could increase the CR to compensate. This might mean that we should already be focussing on increasing the spark yield to work in a Higher compression environment.   
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 30, 2008, 10:54:33 AM
Do we know how much power we can get out of an engine using this method? Is it going to be enough to power a magneto? Clearly, some form of circuitry would be needed to feed the right kind of power into the spark plug, but imagine this engine running itself after a simple pull-start procedure.

It all depends on 1) How much power we could extract from a magneto and 2) whether the engine itself could produce enough power from the magneto.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on June 30, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
Do we know how much power we can get out of an engine using this method? Is it going to be enough to power a magneto? Clearly, some form of circuitry would be needed to feed the right kind of power into the spark plug, but imagine this engine running itself after a simple pull-start procedure.

It all depends on 1) How much power we could extract from a magneto and 2) whether the engine itself could produce enough power from the magneto.

In theory, the engine does not run itself, it consumes fuel, just like any other combustion engine. The cool thing is that it uses water and air and electricity.

Air is a complex gas mixture and water is a profoundly complex substance, far more than is commonly realized. It has the widest range of properties than any other known molecule. Plasma (very, very hot ions) and water and air. Hhmmmmmm.  There's room for a lot of complex chemical/electrical activity to occur. The answers to your questions may easily be provided by empirical data from real experiments, but if left only to the theorists, there's enough fodder for debate over what is happening to keep the mind boggling for quite a long time ! LOL

Including me !  :D :D  KneeDeep
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 11:59:04 AM
In theory, the engine does not run itself, it consumes fuel, just like any other combustion engine. The cool thing is that it uses water and air and electricity.

Air is a complex gas mixture and water is a profoundly complex substance, far more than is commonly realized. It has the widest range of properties than any other known molecule. Plasma (very, very hot ions) and water and air. Hhmmmmmm.  There's room for a lot of complex chemical/electrical activity to occur. The answers to your questions may easily be provided by empirical data from real experiments, but if left only to the theorists, there's enough fodder for debate over what is happening to keep the mind boggling for quite a long time ! LOL

Including me !  :D :D  KneeDeep

It's always fancy to keep stuff complex and hard to grasp so you can brag but this effect isn't. Sure the phenomenon is unknown so far but doesn't mean it's hard to get going. I believe he was asking whether you could hook a generator to the water engine and then provide the electricity from that. Using water is the last concern since this is after all the water planet.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 30, 2008, 12:21:33 PM
I believe he was asking whether you could hook a generator to the water engine and then provide the electricity from that.
That's my question exactly. If we think of water as how it is generally viewed at the moment, there is no 'energy' in it. However, we are feeding electrical energy to the process in order to trigger a (hopefully) much more powerful reaction. So we need a constant supply of energy in order to get energy out. I am just wondering if this powerful reaction can produce enough energy to power a generator that can produce the electricity necessary to keep the engine powered.

The peak oil doomers will look for any excuse they can to bag something that debunks their 'dieback theorem' and I think in this case it will be the batteries. They're currently having a go at hybrids for this reason - they say that if you add up the energy resources they consume to manufacture and dispose of, they are actually less fuel efficient than a petrol engine. A water engine that only needs a battery to start gives them very little ammunition.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 12:28:28 PM
@send_to_nice: I don't know much about cars but I believe that's the alternators job.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on June 30, 2008, 01:03:28 PM
carbully you hit the nail on the head! exactly what i was gonna say.

The simplicity of this experiment is the funniest thing, as there are heaps of people on this forum, all talking about it, and so far only 3 people have replicated it (not including s1r due to the fact he hasnt shown us his circuit).  Either its harder than it looks or there are lots of  "keyboard scientists" amongst us.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 30, 2008, 01:10:09 PM
@send_to_nice: I don't know much about cars but I believe that's the alternators job.
You may be right. However, I always thought the alternator was what charged the battery and powered the car's electrics (eg lights, radio, fans etc) while the engine is running. A magneto, however,  powers the ignition system in simple engines such as those used in lawnmowers and chainsaws. Both these items share the characteristic of (generally speaking) being pull-start engines that require no battery. I have no idea what powers the spark on more modern engines.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on June 30, 2008, 01:48:32 PM
The energy appears the be negative in this explosion.

Are you saying it is an implosion ??

In that case, I'm starting to smell "Joe Cell"... ;)

Just assuming for a second that there is implosion going on,
or even that there is somehow a larger explosion than should be
the case given the input energy,
would the total energy gain (at the explosion side of the equation)
plus the input energy perhaps account for the apparent energy gain
in Lucs readings? In other words, could it be that the OU readings
Luc gets are indeed not "real power" in the circuit, but when the
explosion (implosion?) is taken into account the OU readings
do accord with the total energy output? Even if the OU does not
occur as "real power" in the circuit, it does occur as "real power"
in the explosion (implosion?)...?
If so, then the apparent OU circuit readings might be a good indicator
for the final output COP...?
I'm just speculating here. ;)

And on another note, if there is implosion going on, then we might
see similar effects as are claimed to occur with the Joe Cell,
in particular the claimed cooling effect... (It is said the exhaust of
a Joe Cell modified car becomes freezing cold during operation,
because it absorbs energy from the environment as the implosion occurs.)
And that might not only be used for energy efficient air cooling,
but it may even be possible to use it as a heat sink for other
devices, thereby increasing effective energy production... :)

That said, I can't help but notice how most people working on hydrogen
and/or "water fuel" experiments seem to be focused on producing hydrogen,
but I hardly evr see anyne actually run an engine on the produced hydrogen
and then see how much electrical energy they can get from the engine
(if connected to a dynamo or even if the engine itself is part of a generator).
I do regularly see people cite the volume of gas produced by a certain amount of power,
and I see many people getting excited when they think their electrolysis circuit
is producing OU readings, quite a number getting excited when the volume of gas
they manage to produce is larger than that of others, but I hardly ever see anyone
actually talking about how their hydrogen-fueled generator produces more electrical
output than was needed to produce the hydrogen.
I have heard quite a few claims in the past of people who say they've been driving
a water-fueled car for a while already, but when push came to shove they either
disappeared from view or they had to admit they did have to hook their battery up
to a grid-powered charger every night, and were thus actually running their car on
grid power.
And if we're going to be using grid power to produce hydrogen to run our combustion
engines on, then it's still more efficient to switch over to electrical cars.
After all, unless we have some funky over unity electrolysis, the process of producing
hydrogen, then burning it to produce motive force, is quite a bit less efficient than
producing motive force directly from electricity.

So i guess the question remains: what exactly are we looking at here?
Are we looking at over-efficient electrolysis? If so, where is the proof of this,
who has compared the volumes of gas produced by this circuit to the volumes
produced by other means? Who has burnt the volumes of gas to see how much
actual power can be derived from it? Who has compared that power output to the
input to the circuit?

Or are we looking at a funky way to get what appear to be much larger spark effects?

I understand that larger air arcs by simply adding a B-field while not increasing the
voltage seems to suggest that there is somehow either an effective voltage amplification
in the B-field zone, or there is a lowering of the dielectric 'constant' of the air inside the B-field.
If it were the former, it might be possible to get actual additional power from this if we
use it in an electrolysis setup, as it would seem logical that the water also "sees" a higher
voltage and thus electrolyses faster than it should. It is of course equally possible that there
is somethign else going on that just has the effect of enlarging the spark but there is no
actual (or even "virtual") voltage increase at all, and in that case there is no additional electrolysis.
If it were the latter (dielectric constant lowered), then it seems to me we still have a similar
situation where it may be possible that the dielectric constant is lowered because the water
molecules already 'split' a little bit, increasing free charge particles, increasing conductivity,
and of course then it should take less energy to split more of them into H2 and O2. But same
thing goes here, it seem equally possible that there is a different effect at work and the electrical
conductivity increases (resistance decreases) not because of partial dissociation of the water,
but rather because of some other B-fied effect... (I'm hesitant to suggest spin-coupling ;))

So what exactly are have we got? ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 02:32:47 PM
I am not an EE, but I am an ASE certified auto technician. I notice that in your most recent schematics you are "triggering" the HV ignition coil on the positive feed to the ignition coil's primary winding. This may work on a bench setup, but in a car you will find that the positive feed to the HV ignition coil's primary winding is not triggered, only switched on/off by the ignition switch. The HV ignition coil is triggered by making/breaking the negative side of the coil's primary winding to ground in an automotive application. Older cars used a set of "points" to do this, and newer cars use solid-state electronics to control a heavy transistor to make/break the primary winding's ground.

The only exception to this that I am aware of is some old British cars and a few older tractors.

So, where your schematics show that you are grounding the primary winding at the spark plug, in a car you will be grounding it either througn a set of points or through an ignition module.

-carbully
DOH!... your right, its been years since i have worked on a car with a coil like this. I started buying newer cars so i didnt have to work on them at all....LOL. I will make changes and re-post! Thank You!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on June 30, 2008, 03:35:41 PM
Has anyone thought of using a modern automotive coil. New coils pack a punch that can kill a person. The one Luc and others are shown using only produce about 40,000 volts and there are some new ones that produce 60,000 + volts. I also think the newer ones provide more amperage as well.

 I will test a few tomorrow to see if there is any difference in the spark with having the resistor removed from the plug.

Also try it with the http://www.pulstarplug.com/

The Pulstar? Pulse Plug is not just another spark plug!
The Pulstar? pulse plug represents the first technological advancement in spark plug design in the past 100 years!

This new technology is a drop-in replacement for all spark plugs, including those iridium, high performance spark plugs. Pulstar is designed to more efficiently ignite the fuel in an engine's cylinders increasing fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Pulstar? pulse plugs look and fit like spark plugs, but incorporate an internal capacitor to deliver a spark 10 times more powerful than a spark plug with less cycle-to-cycle variation.

Pulse plugs are safe for use in all vehicles and improve combustion efficiency in all spark-ignited internal combustion engines, yielding better overall engine performance, with fuel consumption and associated green house gases reduced by as much as 10%.


IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 03:48:55 PM
Also try it with the http://www.pulstarplug.com/

The Pulstar? Pulse Plug is not just another spark plug!
The Pulstar? pulse plug represents the first technological advancement in spark plug design in the past 100 years!

This new technology is a drop-in replacement for all spark plugs, including those iridium, high performance spark plugs. Pulstar is designed to more efficiently ignite the fuel in an engine's cylinders increasing fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Pulstar? pulse plugs look and fit like spark plugs, but incorporate an internal capacitor to deliver a spark 10 times more powerful than a spark plug with less cycle-to-cycle variation.

Pulse plugs are safe for use in all vehicles and improve combustion efficiency in all spark-ignited internal combustion engines, yielding better overall engine performance, with fuel consumption and associated green house gases reduced by as much as 10%.


IndianaBoys

Aren't they just using a capacitor and a switching diode in parallel. Something like this.

(http://broli.dommel.be/sparkcircuit.JPG)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 04:37:46 PM
hey guys

how about a magnetic wheel  with reeds and trannys  then the system you guys are working on  out put of that to the ign system

i will do a dwg


ist ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 04:52:13 PM
Ossie has uploaded a new video using a 9v battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOPUfRRdnW8
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 04:57:51 PM
@ossie

have you tried to take power from the plug     try to recharge a battery or a cap from the plug  ;)


might blow you away....

ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 05:02:28 PM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AtomicOrbitals on June 30, 2008, 05:10:46 PM
I replicated the original experiment in the video, with what parts I had on hand (luckily I had recently scrapped a microwave oven for parts & had a home-made ignition coil setup to test things with).

First and foremost, I agree with the comment that the correct ratio of water mist-to-air is critical. This ought to be the focus of everyone at this time.

Atmospheric pressure, humidity, and temperature (P-H-T) are the three key variables. I played with several different voltage and waveform inputs to the coil and didn't see a lot of variation, so the electrical parts are not as critical as they first appear. If you get a strong spark, it works.

Three plant misters from around the house were used to supply water, and I discovered that the one with the finest mist seems to work best. This leads me to believe that the LARGER SURFACE AREA of the water (in mist form) is what makes this experiment different.

Will report numbers for PHT to this group as they are discovered.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:19:46 PM
OSSIE many thanks  1000 times holy crap  have you ever pointed a laser thermometer at the plasma?  Chet  PS ask Ben Pretty please to stop by
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:29:42 PM
OSSIE  THIS IS WHY I THINK THERE IS MORE POTENTIAL HERE   MUST SEE    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeW4XXowc  CHRISP CRUNHY 1 1/2  yrs ago   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on June 30, 2008, 05:50:43 PM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie



Hi Ossie,

Once again you have outdone yourself.  Do you realize that this could be used AS IS on a old "Hit and Miss" engine from way back......Points would simply turn on the 9V circuit and it would fire as needed!

As we have discussed via Email, the theory of how all this works is pretty well documented and the disassociative water process is possibly how the high energy output is generated.  There is a very good file on the Yahoo Groups that discusses this in a very scholarly manner.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 05:58:18 PM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie

Once again Ossie, thank you for this amazing demonstration ;D


At everyone, you need to follow Ossie's lead, you will not understand using your conventional thinking as I can see since some of you are starting to confuse this topic.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 06:09:34 PM
Disassociated water ? Ill take 2 please http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeW4XXowc  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 06:23:18 PM
For people with little EE background (like me). Here's what the ignition coil is supposed to do..

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/ignitioncoil/index.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 06:24:41 PM
Quote from: pese
ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx


Checked out the doubling circuit at 13V ac in, got 34V dc out, almost triple!
Used 2 -120uf 200V caps

You may have a cap problem.

Good Luck, Larry

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on June 30, 2008, 07:07:12 PM
Disassociated water ? Ill take 2 please http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeW4XXowc  Chet

Hi All,


For those who like to know what is really going on and like to read technical papers,  go to the files section in the below group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

and read:

Graneau experiments.pdf   (You might have to join the group which I recommend)

If you slog through it, it is an eye opening experience as to what is going on here!!  It pretty well tells it like it is and it is AMAZING where the power comes from!  It is too large to attach.

Now read it darn it! 

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 07:37:53 PM
k4zep, here is the link to the Graneau experiments.pdf

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EBFpSJS-sMYpa8Cek1PzGHH5WYgLGp5EbYiB0zypKT-db8__30ijrUD_Ai48FWCEJ0HNPnXiasFyEo1ipRExiqkMdXwFzKRoHls/Graneau%20experiments.pdf
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 07:39:52 PM
Hi All,


For those who like to know what is really going on and like to read technical papers,  go to the files section in the below group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

and read:

Graneau experiments.pdf   (You might have to join the group which I recommend)

If you slog through it, it is an eye opening experience as to what is going on here!!  It pretty well tells it like it is and it is AMAZING where the power comes from!  It is too large to attach.

k4zep, here is the link to the Graneau experiments.pdf

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EBFpSJS-sMYpa8Cek1PzGHH5WYgLGp5EbYiB0zypKT-db8__30ijrUD_Ai48FWCEJ0HNPnXiasFyEo1ipRExiqkMdXwFzKRoHls/Graneau%20experiments.pdf

Ah, thanks very much!

Now read it darn it! 

Ben

Jesus please grab it out of there and put it on the millions free file hosting websites. I have wasted half and hour running in loops trying to register to that group.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 30, 2008, 08:02:32 PM
Ah, thanks very much!

Now read it darn it! 

Ben


Jesus please grab it out of there and put it on the millions free file hosting websites. I have wasted half and hour running in loops trying to register to that group.

The Graneau experiments.pdf  is here now:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 08:08:02 PM
The following catched my eye.

Quote
It was then shown that the discharge of 3.6 kJ of stored capacitor
energy would create pressures in excess of 20.000 atm, in 7 ml of saltwater :
3.6 gm of water was ejected from the accelerator barrel with a velocity of the
order of 1000 m/s?, and then punched a 1/2 inch diameter hole through a 1/4 inch
thick aluminium plate (Graneau and Graneau 1996).

Holy shit... 20.000 atm = 293.918,976 psi
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 11:08:20 PM
I'm having trouble getting to the spark plug resistor. The original video now just shows a broken spark plug  ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Can any body give me a brief explanation or a new video?

Thanks, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: JuanDelaTorre on June 30, 2008, 11:23:38 PM
I'm having trouble getting to the spark plug resistor. The original video now just shows a broken spark plug  ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Can any body give me a brief explanation or a new video?

Thanks, Larry

@LarryC

Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

User mdbreedi show an excellent method to remove the resistor from a sparkplug.  Hope this helps.

Juan
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 11:29:43 PM
I'm having trouble getting to the spark plug resistor. The original video now just shows a broken spark plug  ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Can any body give me a brief explanation or a new video?

Thanks, Larry

from youtube.."This is how to remove the top on a Champion 8339 plug and remove the resistor inside and replace with a piece of wire to use in plasma/water experiments. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Just buy a Champion 8339 plug
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 11:38:57 PM
Thanks, Juan and xbox hacker,

I'm using a lawn tractor plug and must not come off the same way. I'll have to pick up the 8339 or small lawn mower plug.

What's really weird it that the video you guys posted is the same one that I viewed when Stefan originally posted. Now it just shows a broken plug ???

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 01, 2008, 12:01:53 AM
Larry All did you see his other vid  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I&amp;feature=related O M G    Chet PS he's not even misting
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 12:49:30 AM
The true test will be the challenge of preventing grounding of the inverter, or whatever device we are using to introduce the square wave.  The problem of the ignition systems negative ground will have to be overcome.   Or Has It?

I can't wait to see this actually applied to a running automobile. 

Thanks All of You for this Vital Research!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on July 01, 2008, 01:51:21 AM
@LarryC

Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

User mdbreedi show an excellent method to remove the resistor from a sparkplug.  Hope this helps.

Juan


All of the sparkplugs I have come across have the resistor part imbedded in the ceramic, so it is impossible to remove it - so I expect that video will be of limited use...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 01:57:25 AM
Can't non resistor plugs still be purchased?  Or are these only available on the antique dinosaurs (that I love) ::)  ??

Livingwaters08

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 02:02:17 AM
Can somebody PLEASE help me with Ossie's circuit. I realized I was using very low voltage diodes yesterday so today I got some 5408, they didn't have 5404. These are 1000V 3A diodes. I started out with 8 and kept adding one at a time til I now have 20 of them and I still cannot get my high voltage arc. If I unhook the cap on either side I get the HV arc but as long as the cap is hooked up I can not get an arc. I turned the diodes around and get my HV arc but then I get no low voltage with it, which I expected not to anyway.

Also, what is the strobe light for? I'm assuming this is just acting as the points in an ignition system.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: boke on July 01, 2008, 02:05:10 AM
There are still a lot of non-resistor plugs around. Especially for off road applications.

Champion N2C is non-resistor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 02:11:31 AM
Here's a list of some non resistor plugs.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ns=P_SRE_DisplayPrice%7C0&N=700+4294842813+4294891681+4294842811+115&Ntt=spark+plug&Ntk=KeywordSearch&rsview=sku&RC=10
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 02:13:42 AM
Boke,
Are these available for most automobile applications? Do you know?  This would simplify things now wouldn't it.  No tunes though.   :(  : (

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 02:22:29 AM
Ossie,

Have you posted a circuit layout?  I'm trying to  find it.  I'm ready to try this on an engine. 

So, will the cap in the circuit prevent the grounding problem of the inverter?

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 01, 2008, 03:15:28 AM
Hi All,

Following are the links to all my important posts so far that contain the circuit diagrams, pictures, construction details and information on the process and what I observe. Please read them all carefully. To do this practically is pretty simple. I am very busy and can't spend much time helping others with building info. So please help each other and I will help when I where I get time to. If you show this information to someone with an electronics background and experience, they will have no problem building and replicating this. So please seek help from whoever if you are having difficulty, even if they don't believe it because once it is working, they will believe indeed.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108731.html#msg108731

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108956.html#msg108956

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072

Also, please save any gratitude for Luc who stepped out and first showed how he produced the effect in a simple circuit setup and encouraged others to replicate it with this thread.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 03:16:15 AM
I reversed polarity on the ignition coil and now it works. Somebody explain that to me.

Also I blew up the diodes, could be because I have the bridge rectifier hooked up to a 110 plug instead of an inverter. I blew up my inverter the other day so I'll wait til tomorrow and get a new one and see what happens.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 03:31:42 AM
Bumfuzzled, Put a fuse to protect your inverter.  Fuse or circuit breaker= cheap.  Inverter= expensive.   ;)

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 03:45:33 AM
I blew it up before "I knew what I was doing". That's a joke of course, I still have no clue what I'm doing. lol It has 2 fuses inside of it and neither were blown. Where do I need to put the fuses??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 01, 2008, 03:48:59 AM
Hi Bumfuzzled,

Because an ignition coil is basically inductor, it will have back emf. So this means the output essentially will be AC. Whether the main HV pulse is on the positive or negative side of the AC wave output will be determined by the circuit driving the primary of the ignition coil. If you look at the circuits I have posted, you will see that this is not consistent and wholey reliant on the overall circuit. So this can be a source of confusion and problem in terms of polarity for those who are trying to come up with their own circuits. I can only suggest that a reverse diode across the primary of the ignition coil will keep the output polarity consistent if that is what you are after.

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 01, 2008, 04:17:44 AM
Someone will start testing it with injector, some test done with water and injector

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BeojLzAlDc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 04:35:31 AM
I am not an electronics wiz by any means.   I will try to help though.  Anyone out there wanting to assist, please do.

You would want a 20 amp automotive fuse in line on the 12 volt side of the inverter..  IFYOU ARE HOOKING THIS UP ON A CAR.  ARE YOU?    I'm pretty sure this is where the fuse must be placed.

Good Luck.

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 04:46:40 AM
Hi Ossie,

I have a question.  Do you have a suggestion for keeping the voltage from running back to the inverter when hooking all of this up on a car??   Other than the diodes which seem not to be doing the trick.  Also, s1r9a9m9 mentioned that the plasma reaction needed to be picked up by around 90%... That is, to drive an engine.  Any ideas?

Thanks for helping!
Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 01, 2008, 04:55:14 AM
Hi All,

I thought it important to point something out regarding previous work related to this topic. There are many videos and demonstrations and documention of water being burnt and exploded using very high power and powerfull arc discharges. These are brute force devices and setups where in most cases more electrical energy is being put into the device than is being generated by the water combustion.

This is NOT what we are doing and have demonstrated in this thread. The devices and setups we are showing in this thread are using small amounts of electrical energy to cause the combustion of water which releases more energy than what was put in electrically. What is unique in our circuits here, when compared to previous examples on the internet, is that we are utilising the HV spark from an ignition coil as the precursor that allows enough ionisation of the air in the spark gap to conduct the minimum required energy pulse of 100-300 volts through the spark gap and the surrounding moisture near it. This results in the moisture/water exploding and thus releasing the energy contained in it. This process only requires minimal energy pulses in addition to the ignition spark and is very efficient.

We have developed these devices in an attempt to duplicate the work of s1r9a9m9 who has been able to demonstrate that he can run an engine solely on water instead of petrol by using a similar setup which uses the same process here as described. He infact claims to have run his adapted V8 automobile for 30,000 miles at a fuel efficiency rate of 300 miles per gallon of water. Most of us could not believe such claims but now after being able to reproduce the effect of being able to explode water with minimal energy input, it appears that what s1r9a9m9 claims is indeed possible.

So please do not find videos and demonstrations of people burning and exploding water with powerfull arc discharges and assume it is the same thing we are doing here because it is not. The process we are demonstrating here is very efficient to the point that it CAN be adapted to exisiting combustion engines to allow the engine to be run solely on water fed directly through the engine's exisiting fuel system. The adaption would be applied only to the engines existing ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2008, 05:01:57 AM
I reversed polarity on the ignition coil and now it works. Somebody explain that to me.

Also I blew up the diodes, could be because I have the bridge rectifier hooked up to a 110 plug instead of an inverter. I blew up my inverter the other day so I'll wait til tomorrow and get a new one and see what happens.

why did it blow up on you???

i know why 

becuse it the RE is returing to a place to where it can not escape to do use full work... and it blows shit up  ;D

put a lead out diode to where it is returning put a cap after it to convert it to hot electricty or leave the cap out and use it the way it is ...

ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 05:03:32 AM
Thanks Ossie, I'll try that tomorrow. Gotta pick up more diodes and inverter, gotta get away from the 110 wall outlet, too many amps for the diodes I guess, I blew up every one of them I had. lol

That's what I was trying to do last week, get the HV to lead the low voltage but had no clue I need that many diodes in series. Glad you came along!! Are those diodes protecting the inverter or do I need to fuse it somewhere like livingwaters said?

I know that plasma arc is very bright, just like looking at an arc weld. I'll have to wear dark glasses when I do that from now on.  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: chrisC on July 01, 2008, 05:04:45 AM


Hi All,

I thought it important to point something out regarding previous work related to this topic. There are many videos and demonstrations and documention of water being burnt and exploded using very high power and powerfull arc discharges. These are brute force devices and setups where in most cases more electrical energy is being put into the device than is being generated by the water combustion.

This is NOT what we are doing and have demonstrated in this thread. The devices and setups we are showing in this thread are using small amounts of electrical energy to cause the combustion of water which releases more energy than what was put in electrically. What is unique in our circuits here, when compared to previous examples on the internet, is that we are utilising the HV spark from an ignition coil as the precursor that allows enough ionisation of the air in the spark gap to conduct the minimum required energy pulse of 100-300 volts through the spark gap and the surrounding moisture near it. This results in the moisture/water exploding and thus releasing the energy contained in it. This process only requires minimal energy pulses in addition to the ignition spark and is very efficient.

We have developed these devices in an attempt to duplicate the work of s1r9a9m9 who has been able to demonstrate that he can run an engine solely on water instead of petrol by using a similar setup which uses the same process here as described. He infact claims to have run his adapted V8 automobile for 30,000 miles at a fuel efficiency rate of 300 miles per gallon of water. Most of us could not believe such claims but now after being able to reproduce the effect of being able to explode water with minimal energy input, it appears that what s1r9a9m9 claims is indeed possible.

So please do not find videos and demonstrations of people burning and exploding water with powerfull arc discharges and assume it is the same thing we are doing here because it is not. The process we are demonstrating here is very efficient to the point that it CAN be adapted to exisiting combustion engines to allow the engine to be run solely on water fed directly through the engine's exisiting fuel system. The adaption would be applied only to the engines existing ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie



Well said Ossie! I read with great interest what Luc had stumbled upon and good people like yourself has been able to replicate and hopefully get us all to the point where the principles are well understood and easy to adapt to any existing gasoline engine. That would be a holy grail for ridding ourselves of the Opec oil greed!

Keep it up.

cheers
chrisC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 05:07:20 AM
why did it blow up on you???

i know why 

becuse it the RE is returing to a place to where it can not escape to do use full work... and it blows shit up  ;D

put a lead out diode to where it is returning put a cap after it to convert it to hot electricty or leave the cap out and use it the way it is ...

ist



I figured it was because the wall outlet can put out 15 amps or so before the breaker trips and those diodes cant handle that much so it blew them up. They were pretty hot to the touch right after the blew. I dunno, I don't know electricity that well.  ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2008, 05:14:58 AM
im gonna throw togather some kind of unit like what u all are working on here maybe we can come up with a good design as a group

should be real easy with a small engine to get it to work

has any one tryed to burn hho with this style unit??

ist

btw   to be safe do all testing off grid!!!!   espically if you are gonna play with cold electricty b4 the ign coil...  we dont want to back feed to the grid  :o

for those that have not seen my simple vid i did a wile ago...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3852.0.html  12dv 1 amp  8)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 01, 2008, 06:05:06 AM

Well said Ossie! I read with great interest what Luc had stumbled upon and good people like yourself has been able to replicate and hopefully get us all to the point where the principles are well understood and easy to adapt to any existing gasoline engine. That would be a holy grail for ridding ourselves of the Opec oil greed!

Keep it up.

cheers
chrisC
Hi chrisC, thanks for reading the topic and posting your positive comment.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 01, 2008, 10:13:23 AM
Bumfuzzled and the rest of the group,

I really don't think an in-line fuse or circuit breaker will protect the inverter because they do not blow fast enough before the damage is done.  Ossie, input on this???

Aside from rectifying the AC from the inverter to DC, Ossie has 16 - 1N5404 diodes in series.  They are 400V 3 Amp diodes and in series in addition to the 10 (shown in the schematic), not 8 as the schematic says of 1N4007 diodes rated at 1000 volts 1 amp.   There is your protection if the circuit is wired properly.

Is this overkill on the diodes?  Maybe, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.  It also seems to me that 2 to 2.5 amps and 12 V, as shown on Ossie's meters, this system is only drawing 24 to 30 watts to create the plasma arc.  30 watts is nothing, so this circuit is extremely efficient and incredibly simple.  The 300 Watt inverter is actually 10 times the required demand of this simple circuit. 

One thing I did notice was the capacitor is 250 volts which is cutting it a bit close to the 240 volts output of the inverter, but I am by no means an electrical circuit designer... actually far from it... Just an observation though.  In the US, our mains and off the shelf inverters are 120 VAC, so I am still using the 250V capacitor and all seems great!

Also, we don't know what the circuit will draw once it is introduced to a cylinder with compressed water vapor.  Right now, the circuit is only firing in an open air environment.  Will the circuit draw more than it is currently (pardon the pun)?  Maybe, maybe not, but I commend Ossie for taking that into consideration and perhaps the number of diodes isn't overkill.  Either way, better safe than sorry!

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 01, 2008, 10:20:10 AM
Hi Luc,

How is it going? Any new results from the suggested experiments? I am approaching an investor with this ignition principle to develop a small turbine pulse generator. 

Rgds.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 10:51:42 AM
Hi robbie47, thanks for looking and adding your input. You are very correct about the humidity level. The setup of the video was done in a garage and I had the garage door was open, outside was just starting to rain which became a major rain storm just after the video was done, there was a lightning hit less than a 100 feet away  :o, the timing of it all felt so perfect, like a confirmation from Mother Nature. So at the time I was doing the video I did not realize that all that moisture in the air was also helping the spark since you can see I did not need to add water at every spark to make it work.

Luc



Hmmm, I just noticed this thread, it has grown fast.
First point would be that it is very plausible you attracted the lightening strike.

Maybe these questions have been answered in one of the subsequent pages and if so sorry but...
Can you just use 240v mains rather than a 240v inverter?
If so then I can easily replicate this, if not then I probably won't as getting the inverter is sure to be a headache and I know you found in a similar experiment that even the brand/model of inverter mattered!

Also what is with the first image in the thread with the inverter and mains power?  I can't find any text/video to tell me what that one does. (the image below it though seems neatly covered in the video)

If the effect is tied to a given model of inverter then it seems that this is all kinda pointless, you need to be buying a bunch of them and seeing what makes them tick, and make a simplified inverter or circuit that creates the aetheric (or whatever you want to call it) electrical current.

BTW aren't you 110-120v system in Canada? How are you getting 240v inverters?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 11:29:12 AM
I have pretty much only read the 1st and last page still.

This thread seems a tad unfocused, there are 2 (or maybe 3) important discoveries Luc seems to have made here.

The most obvious is that he has managed to explode water (at least in part due to burning it seemingly after splitting it) with a pulse from a rather modest capacitor that would contain very limited energy.

However possibly the most important is that he has shown that charging a cap with full wave rectified 240v from a specific transformer is different to 240v full wave rectified from a different inverter (I believe) or from mains.

That is the most solid proof I have seen to date that a aetherized/cold current (or whatever names you want to give it) can charge a capacitor and keep it's aetheric quality.

This discovery could just as well be attacked not from the 'burning hydrogen/exploding water' point of view but from an electroaetheric point of view where we see how to create the kind of current that works works in this device and what other differing properties it may have, chances are this is only one of it's special talents.

One test I would very much like to see Luc do is to check the voltage of his charged cap is to verify that the difference isn't that this specific inverter is charging the cap a little higher than the other things he has tried.

Maybe I would look into getting this model of inverter if he can satisfy that curiosity, so how much does one of these cost then???   Any recommended sources? (I'm in NZ btw)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 01, 2008, 11:57:57 AM
I have pretty much only read the 1st and last page still.

This thread seems a tad unfocused, there are 2 (or maybe 3) important discoveries Luc seems to have made here.
This is something I've been thinking, but being very much a new kid on the block here I haven't said much about it. Something I've been wondering is, at what point does an idea raised through a thread on here need to become a 'project'? As I said, I'm a newcomer to this site so am not sure whether threads ike this come and go all the time. Certainly to me it feels as though there is a huge amount of anticipation around this idea and how feasible it is. Regulars here are pretty clued up and I've certainly noticed a lot of threads where people pick up on fake ideas or inefficient ones very soon. This thread doesn't seem to have aroused such suspicion, so from that can we assume that this is the real deal? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm hoping some of the regulars do.

If it is, I'd suggest we seriously think about putting some more structure into this to make sure we are aiming at a goal and not just playing around with a whole lot of ideas and frying electronics in the process. Luc has shown what can be achieved with a simple circuit and low power, the next step (I believe) is showing that there is a pressure wave generated that could be used to displace a piston. If we can show that, then the next step is probably to try it on a real engine.

What do people think?

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 01:02:21 PM
send2, I agree.

While I am personally interested in how this circuit may be generating the kind of conditions for a 'radiant effect', and that is a very important direction, the other question is if he has anything other that a fun pop.

You need quite a bit of power to push down a piston, hundreds of pounds of pressure is developed to push down a piston.
In fact if anyone tells you that implosion can power an engine you know they are either wrong or are not meaning the creation of a partial vacuum as atmospheric pressure is only 16PSI and that's no where near enough to run an engine. (which is not to say that a non-atmospheric implosive force may not be possible)

So anyone who has the effect needs to see if it can create some real pressure, and compare it to gas explosion.

And if expensive inverters are not needed then can Luc please put a cheaper plan in the first post of the thread, I have lots of gear but no inverters.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 01, 2008, 01:20:41 PM
It shouldn't be hard to prove/disprove the viability of this. All that is needed is some vessel we can attach over the spark plug that will allow us to add the necessary moisture. Then, we make it spark and watch the pressure destroy the vessel. I was initially thinking of a balloon, but this won't allow the water mist to be sprayed. Assuming it did, we shouldn't have any trouble bursting a balloon if the pressure is as high as some are suggesting it is. How about it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 01, 2008, 02:17:52 PM
Youtube User crob227
has simular effect now.
Have alook at this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKpEXXvIZZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWglLC_UEwc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRX89SDHEiM

By the way, great accent and many real good bangs !  ;D

Well at 900 Volts DC be very cautious, as, when you touch
this cap with wet fingers you surely will be dead...!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 01, 2008, 02:44:26 PM
Probably.
But if you touch the cap with wet fingers,
isn't that sort of natural selection at work? ;) ;D
jk

Anyway:
Go Luc! Go Ossie! W00T! :D ;D

but seriously, this is starting to get really exciting.
I'm actually considering putting my cell experiments on hold for this...
... and digging up that old hydrogen kit motor I had so I can try
it with a running motor... now where did I put that thing?

May I suggest compiling a sort of documentation file or folder in which
Luc and Ossie gather the most usefull and clear posts, explanations,
and circuit drawings, in order to facilitate bringing people up to speed?
The thread is growing so fast that peope only jumping in now first have to
spend 2 days reading the earlier posts before they get to this point.

I posted some stuff myself that turned out to be complete crap just ten
minutes later because I had missed a piece of the developments in the thread.
Apologies for polluting your nice thread Luc. ;)

Oh, and if s1r9a9m9 has his V8 conversion plans online somewhere
that might be interesting :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: renaud67 on July 01, 2008, 03:02:04 PM
Probably.
But if you touch the cap with wet fingers,
isn't that sort of natural selection at work? ;) ;D
jk

Anyway:
Go Luc! Go Ossie! W00T! :D ;D

but seriously, this is starting to get really exciting.
I'm actually considering putting my cell experiments on hold for this...
... and digging up that old hydrogen kit motor I had so I can try
it with a running motor... now where did I put that thing?

May I suggest compiling a sort of documentation file or folder in which
Luc and Ossie gather the most usefull and clear posts, explanations,
and circuit drawings, in order to facilitate bringing people up to speed?
The thread is growing so fast that peope only jumping in now first have to
spend 2 days reading the earlier posts before they get to this point.

I posted some stuff myself that turned out to be complete crap just ten
minutes later because I had missed a piece of the developments in the thread.
Apologies for polluting your nice thread Luc. ;)

Oh, and if s1r9a9m9 has his V8 conversion plans online somewhere
that might be interesting :)
Great idae,
i've just ordered some parts of the Ossie "simple" experiment (coil, diode ... xeon ...)
a pdf file would be very useful for newbee like me ! ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 01, 2008, 03:28:32 PM
send2, I agree.

While I am personally interested in how this circuit may be generating the kind of conditions for a 'radiant effect', and that is a very important direction, the other question is if he has anything other that a fun pop.

You need quite a bit of power to push down a piston, hundreds of pounds of pressure is developed to push down a piston.
In fact if anyone tells you that implosion can power an engine you know they are either wrong or are not meaning the creation of a partial vacuum as atmospheric pressure is only 16PSI and that's no where near enough to run an engine. (which is not to say that a non-atmospheric implosive force may not be possible)

So anyone who has the effect needs to see if it can create some real pressure, and compare it to gas explosion.

And if expensive inverters are not needed then can Luc please put a cheaper plan in the first post of the thread, I have lots of gear but no inverters.


@aether22, @gotoluc

I think the question of is this energy an incursion of a different form can be put to bed fairly fast. From what I have seen in the circuits they are all floating, no physical connection to ground?

If this is in some way pulling a form of energy from the lattice, it can be stopped by the addition of an earth ground on the spark side at some point. Just connect your assumed common on the spark side or one side of the cap to ground. This will not affect the working of the circuit but will remove the possibility of unknown energy (my opinion only) from taking part. You should see a decrease in the result if you are indeed absorbing anomalous energy.

Measuring the cap voltage if this is indeed anomalous will not show anything unexpected. The external energy will not show up on current day instrumentation.

Here is what I did. I connected a SEC15-3 to charge a 100uf 330V cap and discharged the cap via 135V SIDAC into the primary of a 12KV neon sign transformer and the transformer secondary connected to a spark plug. All was driven by 12LA battery. I did observe a similar reaction, yet my first feeling is that it is a localized reaction to a few water molecules. This would say to me that in order to get much energy from the reaction one would need to excite and split large numbers of molecules. I am not certain at this time if the approach wll do that in a useful way.

I do have the answer to my question above, but it is necessary that those that have test circuits try this for themselves, the information could prove valuable.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 01, 2008, 04:42:50 PM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2008, 06:08:57 PM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

DrStiffler

Just  trying to ake sure that I understand  what you are saying



Your previous  post   about connecting a  ground to me seemed to be  about  another  form of energy  being  created in another  part of the circuit  .

Now it looks like    you are saying that it there is OU here it is  in the spark .
 Is it possible that the  guys that  wrote the  law of  thermodynamics  forgot  to  measure  the  energy created  by a spark in water ? 
Or did  they just assume that   the spark  would follow their  law ?

What is  your opinion on this ......Is the spark following  the law ?

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 01, 2008, 06:46:35 PM
All have collected all the parts to determine just how much power the standard ICE puts out in one combustion  building this now using all parts from a 350 fuel injected motor installing into high pressure tank with pop off valve [at first] first tests with gas   next with LUC /OSSIE/s19  circuit[ haven't built that yet will once the test tank is working   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 01, 2008, 07:14:53 PM
DrStiffler

Just  trying to ake sure that I understand  what you are saying



Your previous  post   about connecting a  ground to me seemed to be  about  another  form of energy  being  created in another  part of the circuit  .

Now it looks like    you are saying that it there is OU here it is  in the spark .
 Is it possible that the  guys that  wrote the  law of  thermodynamics  forgot  to  measure  the  energy created  by a spark in water ? 
Or did  they just assume that   the spark  would follow their  law ?

What is  your opinion on this ......Is the spark following  the law ?

gary
@resonanceman
I think you need to read what I said and not what you think could be between the lines. I never mentioned OU or any violation of LoT, even though LoT is a set of misunderstandings.

Now I have adequate supporting experiments to show that circuits (at least the ones I work with) will cease to cohere energy if any part of the circuit is connected to ground.

If you feel Luc's circuit is doing an intake of some ethereal energy them do indeed try my suggestion. If you end up with apparent additional energy with the ground, then I am wrong, yet I would highly question ground as a source of energy in this context.

Again when I say secondary, additional or in addition to, that in no way can be construed as saying OU or LoT violation.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 09:14:53 PM
Really it is a philosophical issue as to if energy in such experiments is created in violation of the first law or merely released from some unmonitored (and vast) form of energy present everywhere.

Either way they can work and the question in this case is only if there is more energy we are getting out than we are intentionally putting in.

No one can prove that energy can't be created or destroyed under any circumstance, to do so would require absolute knowledge of everything there is and know that there is nothing outside your knowledge, that may even be a big ask for a God.

At the same time it is impossible to prove that energy can be created, it could always be that energy is disappearing from some vast unseen storehouse at the same rate it is appearing in a device.

Neither side can ever possibly prove it either way to an absolute certainty.

What is not up for debate even by the most skeptical is that it is possible for a device to output energy while putting either no or less energy into it in any deliberate form.

So is this more energy out that in? Based on 9991mars (s1r9a9m9) and the good Doctors test it would seem so.
Now the question becomes if there is anything beyond normal amps and volts required to generate the effect, Luc believes/believed so but seemingly there are a wide range of possible circuits that can create the effect.
That is an important question to answer.

Clearly there needs to be a simple circuit that anyone cab build without need for an inverter, and a circuit fit for putting into an auto.
One thought I have is that it is a good idea to try this first in an engine with gas and then slowly add water to the mix increasing the mix until it is all or mostly all water. (whatever works)
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on July 01, 2008, 09:28:13 PM
Quote
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.

Heat should due to the friction of the cylinder absolutely no problem, there will be still enough heat generated to warm up the whole car, also in the winter.

The fact of a cold reaction is phenomenal because so we don't have to fear to damage the engine, since a wrong spark plug can act like a burner to the cylinder...


atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 01, 2008, 11:06:18 PM
The posted results have shown a great effect with liquid water and the idea that the finer the mist, the better the reaction.

I was trying to envision the pump/injector combination that would allow the finest of mists (like the gasoline used today should be perhaps?)

Then I started thinking physical state rather than mechanical means.

Anyone thought of trying steam?

Just a musing.

:D

@ Stephan

Thanks for seconding the crob227 study I mentioned earlier. I find his experimentation very exciting and think he might like to be invited to OU.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2008, 11:20:43 PM


Either way they can work and the question in this case is only if there is more energy we are getting out than we are intentionally putting in.


Aether

It seems to me that   our opinions of  if there is more energy coming  in or going out  depends more of our  definition of energy anything else .

I have been told that   if a magnet   holds  a weight   for an extended time no  work is done .   because  there is  no movement and no  energy input .        If  an electro magnet is used to hold the same weight work IS done . 
This  seems really  foolish to me .



This  thread  is about  attempting to replicate  circuit  of S1r9 
If  it has  any  " extra " energy  doesn't really matter  at this point .

I think  the only  questions  we need to think about are does it work ?
And can it be improved .



Quote
Clearly there needs to be a simple circuit that anyone cab build without need for an inverter, and a circuit fit for putting into an auto.

I have been thinking of a 12 V system  today .
I  still have some work to do on it .
The problem is  how  to  protect the  low  volt side  with out  using  REALLY expensive diodes .


Quote
One thought I have is that it is a good idea to try this first in an engine with gas and then slowly add water to the mix increasing the mix until it is all or mostly all water. (whatever works)
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.


The whole  system  is  different .      I don't think  you can mix apples  and oranges in the same engine .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 02, 2008, 12:32:19 AM
...Sure you can. It's called an App-Or-ittion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 02, 2008, 04:21:58 AM
@All

According to Dr. Stiffler, water is a good lube.  So, maybe we don't have to mix in oil in a two-stroke engine?
I have an old 50cc 2-cycle Honda motor scooter.  The engine is electric start with auto injected oil system.  If I try to run it on water, should I leave the oil reservoir dry or add soluble oil?  Regular oil won't mix with water.  Soluble oil may change the reaction?  Any suggestions?

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 04:39:25 AM
DrStiffler,

It would be wonderful if a person such as yourself could assist and be involved with the practical developments of the process and effects as described in this thread. For anyone who, understandably, has concerns as to the validity of the premise that the energy output exceeds the electrical energy input in this process, then I must strongly urge them to read and study a paper that was previously mentioned a few posts ago and was found and shown to me by my good friend Ben, who has now done some good research on this topic.

The paper was published by Cambridge University Press and was written by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK. The title of the paper is, "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy". It is an excellent paper that fully supports and describes what we have seen in the basic and simple experiments described in this thread. Ben found the paper here as follows:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

Stephan has also uploaded the paper here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

The paper clearly explains that the output energy is NOT from any H2O dissassociation and ignition process but simply an electrochemical process where the hydrogen bonds of the H2O molecule, that causes water to remain in a liquid state, are broken by an electric plasma pulse which converts the water into a dense fog state. A fog state is where the H2O molecules are not bonded with each other to form a liquid state but are unbonded and densely dispersed with air to form a fog.

Quotes: "Experimental observations leave little doubt that internal water energy is being liberated by the sudden electrodynamic conversion of about one-third of the water into dense fog", "The loss of intermolecular bond energy in the conversion from liquid to fog must be the source of the explosion energy", "This bond energy is said to be equal to the latent heat of evaporation, and therefore could contribute up to 2200 J g^-1."

So there is already some good academic science behind what we are seeing in this process. I have no doubt that the effects we have seen, as well as other effects yet to be discovered which you yourself have found, can be used and utilised to build a working engine or motor that is powered solely by pure water. Regardless if the result turns out to be a completely new design and form of engine or a simple retofit to existing engines, the goal in the end is the same although the later would have a more rapid impact in terms of the application of the technology.

So I am very encouraged and pleased by your interest in this thread and some of the basic tests you have already done to see for yourself if there is anything real in the claims made. I hope that more important and serious researchers, like yourself, can come together to openly assist and work on what has been described in this thread for the benefit of all.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 02, 2008, 04:50:41 AM
Blew up a brand spankin' new inverter tonight!! Don't know why but I hooked it up to the battery and to the rectifier, turned it on and all was fine. I didn't have the neg side of the HV hooked up but as soon as I hooked the pos side up to the battery the inverter blew. Could it be because I have to switch polarity on the IC?? Anyway, hooked back up to the wall outlet and used 2 old heater elements I had laying around as resistors in the low voltage side and it worked without blowing the diodes this time, I'm using 8 5408 diodes. I can definitely tell the arc gets bigger when water is introduced. I'm gonna try some steam tomorrow afternoon and see what happens. If I get good results I might post a vid. This is cool! lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 05:03:44 AM
Bumfuzzled and All,

If you are going to use inverters as your power supply please avoid using new and modern inverters that are all HF semiconductor based and are effectively the reverse of a switch mode power supply and does not have a large standard transformer in it. These modern inverters, because they are all semconductor based, will be very sensitive to any reverse HV spikes and you will blow the semiconductors in them quite easily. The best inverters to use are the older type that are very heavy because they have a large transformer in them. They work in reverse to a normal step down mains transformer and use transistors to oscillate at 50-60Hz the 12V side of the trnasformer. The 110-240V side is just the transformer's output winding. So these inverters are much more tolerent to HV spikes as the transistor's are protected by the transformers internal winding insulation, although even this does have a limit.

I do NOT recomend people use inverters unless they are either qualified or experienced in working with mains power voltages as the output of the inverter is lethal and the same as your house mains power point.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 02, 2008, 05:35:40 AM
Group,
I don't want to muddy the waters here, but this may help when connecting all of this to an engine.  Years ago automobiles were positive ground.  My late grandfather's 1932 Ford is an example of this.

Could this arrangement help the grounding problem of the inverter in the circuit ?  I just felt compelled  to mention this.  I don't know how complicated it would be to convert a modern automobile over to positive ground, or even if this would be feasible.

Hope this information helps in some small way. ;)

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 02, 2008, 07:09:32 AM
...
What is not up for debate even by the most skeptical is that it is possible for a device to output energy while putting either no or less energy into it in any deliberate form.

So is this more energy out that in?
...

Well, I strongly challenge that!
(Nothing personal here; the issue is for group ? it just happened I found your post)

Shortly: much excitement on the paper already published (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93) at a first reading. Many thanks to Ben and Stefan for pointing to it and for making it available. I said WOW and put it away for careful study. Several ours later, a big BUT appeared: on page 125, in Table 1, E12 is grossly miscomputed, by a factor of 100. A mass Mg of about 60g which is propelled at a height of 0.5m needs only 0.3J and NOT 30J. All E12 are miscomputed as so are Eout/Ein ratios. E12 is the heart of the whole paper (as well as of other papers published earlier); it makes me wonder what happens here, as such a mistake is not to be made by a scientist?

In conclusion: Graneau and Graneau clearly prove that about 1% or less of initial energy (that is 0.3J out of 30J or so) goes into studied phenomena and produces a loud bang. If they are correct, there is no useful energy in that bang and no motor is possible, no matter how spectacular the effect is. Not to mention that overunity and extra-energy would be out of question and the whole paper goes down the drain and a large part of the reputation of the parties involved?

Regardless of the above, I was about to raise the issue of real power out. But as an ?armchair scientist? that never seen an electron nor had changed its filters and quarks in a while now, I better refrain myself?

Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 07:24:04 AM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

Hi Dr. Stiffler, that sounds amazing. Looking forward to a video ;D

At everyone, today is Canada day and I worked all day on the circuit and found something new. The flash of the spark is so bright that I cannot look at it anymore. You cannot see this too much in the video but look at the wood board the spark plug is on, it turns blue. Also look at the last frames and you will see the flame come out of the plug over one inch.

Please look at the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVs_UJ-XRU

S1R has told me that when I have the kind of spark he has I would need sun glasses to look at it. I need to do more tests before I can say if this is the real thing.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 07:30:04 AM
There are so many well documented stories of invertors running cars on water alone.  Who cares why it works - let's stick to experimental findings, instead of armchair bollocks.

The established sciences are bought and paid for with big oil money.  The facts are changed to suit the higher agenda - and no "scientist" really has any say in the matter.

Thought for your consideration: To protect yourself & your inverter - why not use an isolation transformer.  You can buy transformers that convert 110 to 220 or vice versa.  These could provide a nice boost as well as isolation. 

I have a big question mark at this time: is square wave really necessary?  Ignore my ignorant rantings earlier - i've read too much Beardon and not done enought experimenting.  If what Ossie is saying is correct - it should not matter 1% how we charge the capicitor ... DC is DC - is that correct?  Or does it have to be pulsed?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 02, 2008, 07:33:26 AM
Well, I strongly challenge that!


You strongly challenge what? My question?

BTW as to there being more out than in I challenge your argument, first s1r9a9m9 showed it can power a car and so if as it seems this is successful creation of the effect then it seemingly should be assuming the origonal claim or myers claim are genuine.
But also please note the hole made in the half inch thick Aluminium, that shows there is tremendous power.

It is also worth noting that an experimenter reported to Keelynet that he had a transducer putting sound into water and at somewhere in range of the frequency several water OU inventors have used the water shot up leaving a hole in the ceiling.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 07:58:17 AM
Idea:  why not use the explosion to create compressed air, and then run engines on compressed air?  This might be easier to get off the ground and running.  If we build a pressure vessel with a spark plug, pressure sensor and pressure relief valve - we could fire the spark as often as need to maintain pressure. 

Danger! Only qualified people should try to build a pressure vessel - it could be a lethal bomb. 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 08:13:20 AM
Hi Dr. Stiffler, that sounds amazing. Looking forward to a video ;D

At everyone, today is Canada day and I worked all day on the circuit and found something new. The flash of the spark is so bright that I cannot look at it anymore. You cannot see this too much in the video but look at the wood board the spark plug is on, it turns blue. Also look at the last frames and you will see the flame come out of the plug over one inch.

Please look at the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thV6QgXHz7A

S1R has told me that when I have the kind of spark he has I would need sun glasses to look at it. I need to do more tests before I can say if this is the real thing.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Yes, SR1 said the same thing to me too. I can tell you that on the device I showed using a 20Hz sig gen with, if I used a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf capacitor, the discharges on the spark plug were so large, bright and continuous that they effectively blew the water spray away from the plasma before it could make contact and no explosions were observed. This makes sense. This is why such higher power tests are no good out in the open. But in the confines of a pressurised cylinder, by forcing a larger amount of water and moisture into the plasma with pressure, I expect we should get a much larger explosive result. And if there is any chain reactive effect in the explosion when pressurised, this should cause a great deal, if not all of the moisture in the cylinder to explode and we should see an exponential increase in output power. A number of us are now working on this....

Regards,

Ossie




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 08:25:46 AM
It would seem the energy available is basically the Latent Heat of Evaporation as liquid water converts to vapour.  The latent heat of water is known to be 2260 Joules per gram.  1 Joule is 1 Watt per second.  Therefore exploding 1 litre (1 kg) of water into vapour has the maximum potential to supply 2,260,000 Watts for 1 second =   627 Watts for 1 hour. 

1 horsepower = 746 Watts. 

Hopefully we could get an efficiency in the range of 33%.  So it would appear that we could get some useful power out of this - but it would probably chew through the water.  Although that disagrees with the anecdotal evidence that water requirement is much less.

Or maybe i'm completely wrong.  Just trying to get a conservative guess for the sceptics.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 08:54:55 AM
Hi Luc,

Yes, SR1 said the same thing to me too. I can tell you that on the device I showed using a 20Hz sig gen with, if I used a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf capacitor, the discharges on the spark plug were so large, bright and continuous that they effectively blew the water spray away from the plasma before it could make contact and no explosions were observed. This makes sense. This is why such higher power tests are no good out in the open. But in the confines of a pressurised cylinder, by forcing a larger amount of water and moisture into the plasma with pressure, I expect we should get a much larger explosive result. And if there is any chain reactive effect in the explosion when pressurised, this should cause a great deal, if not all of the moisture in the cylinder to explode and we should see an exponential increase in output power. A number of us are now working on this....

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, thanks for your reply. I must tell you that I have a very different circuit to do this now.  I am using only one 1uf capacitor to do this at around 110 volts input and no inverter. I have a variac going though a 1 to 1 Toroid which I use as an isolation transformer which goes to the FWBR to feed the new circuit.

So now I know for sure that it is not something special in the inverter that will give the effect.

Can you test your setup with only 1uf at 110 volts and see if you get flashes that are too bright to look at and you can spray as much water as you want and it keeps working?

Let me know please.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can measure the current draw.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 09:22:11 AM
Hi Ossie, thanks for your reply. I must tell you that I have a very different circuit to do this now.  I am using only one 1uf capacitor to do this at around 110 volts input and no inverter. I have a variac going though a 1 to 1 Toroid which I use as an isolation transformer which goes to the FWBR to feed the new circuit.

So now I know for sure that it is not something special in the inverter that will give the effect.

Can you test your setup with only 1uf at 110 volts and see if you get flashes that are too bright to look at and you can spray as much water as you want and it keeps working?

Let me know please.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can measure the current draw.

Luc


Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 02, 2008, 09:31:08 AM
Excellent, so now we have simply an isolation transformer and and a tiny tiny cap.

Since spark plugs are also not needed it really is a very easy experiment to perform.

And even an autoignition coil is not needed because seemingly whatever is the most expedient HV generator, a MOT (treated carefully for the dangerous piece is equipment is clearly is) will seemingly do fine.

And we see that it can be done in anything from humid air to drenched or even under water.

Seems to me it is now only an issue of how much mechanical power can be gained from the explosion and since that already seems decently established it is figuring out how best to apply it to an engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rednael on July 02, 2008, 09:42:57 AM
Hi callanan and Luc,
First of all congratulation and thank you for your so much important discovery.
Can you please callanan give us a description of how the cricuit operates (the one with the sin generator).. why is the use of the xenon light. Is it acting like a switch ? I am having trouble imagining how is works.

Thank you
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 09:54:34 AM
Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie

Thanks Ossie, those are all very good points :D I'll look into all this tomorrow :'( .. well tommorow is now LOL ;D...it's 3:50 am here now.

Later, got to catch some sleep.

Luc

Added: I'll take the video down for now until I get to the bottom of this.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 10:36:24 AM
The Graneau report indicates that it's the "Ampere force or Ampere Tension" that causes the explosion.  Is that just a way of saying that it's Current/Amps that does it?  If so - is a high voltage brute force counterproductive? 

A 12V lead acid battery can deliver massive amps with a dead short - way more than an inverter. 

Has anybody tried connecting the battery directly to the spark plug via diodes?  Nothing could possibly flow until there was a plasma spark bridging the gap? 

If the higher volts aren't actually required, it would simply be wasting Watts - if Amps are all that matter (once the plasma bridge is formed). 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 10:59:03 AM
Sorry if this is too far OT ... seems to me the main requirement is high volts (>20KV) to establish the spark, and then high amps to bust the water into vapor.  The goal is to keep the power consumption down.

I'm wondering if the high voltage generators used for air ionisers could be used?  From memory these are a diode voltage multiplier system.  Don't old TV's use some high voltage system? 

If the capacitor was switch (charged, then discharged) then should it matter how it was charged?  And won't the total power consumption of the discharge be limited by the size of th capacitor?  Just trying to rule out the objection that using AC mains power is somehow flawed.  I don't see why it can't be used - just as long as the power consumption was limited.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 11:33:32 AM
The Graneau report indicates that it's the "Ampere force or Ampere Tension" that causes the explosion.  Is that just a way of saying that it's Current/Amps that does it?  If so - is a high voltage brute force counterproductive? 

A 12V lead acid battery can deliver massive amps with a dead short - way more than an inverter. 

Has anybody tried connecting the battery directly to the spark plug via diodes?  Nothing could possibly flow until there was a plasma spark bridging the gap? 

If the higher volts aren't actually required, it would simply be wasting Watts - if Amps are all that matter (once the plasma bridge is formed). 

Hi greendoor,

It is quite correct that you only need amps. But then the question of at what voltage the amps needs to be applied is purely determined by the voltage across the spark plug gap when hit by the ionising HV pulse of the ignition coil. The voltage from your battery or inverter or other power supply that is to provide the amps needs to be higher than the voltage across the ionised spark plug gap for the energy to flow into the ionised gap and produce the plasma.

The voltage of the ionised spark gap is determined by a number of factors. In particular is the spark gap distance, as well as the conductivity of the air in which moisture plays a role and finally there is the voltage and current coming from the ignition coil/pulse.

In practice I have found that by reducing the spark gap to as small as about .3 mm I can get the plasma to occur with applied voltages as low as 24 volts. But a gap so small is not too functional and is prone to clogging and shorting. A good size gap needs at least 90-100 volts applied to the spark gap to produce the plasma.

In regard to the power required. A continuous DC source will only waste input energy if one is to take advantage and increase the overall efficiency of the process. Increasing the efficiency must be done by altering the time that the minimum required energy to produce the plasma and explode the required amount of water is applied. This must be done with a DC pulse discharge for the minimum time period required. Typically a capacitor discharge performs this purpose well.

In regard to the output energy from the exploding water, if we were to make a comparative analysis, with the assumption that the exploding water process yields more output energy than the electrical energy put into the process, with a petrol explosion that is also ignited by the same spark we would find that the total output energy is not caused by the localised process of the ignition spark igniting the petrol, but we would find that it is the chain reaction in the petrol gas where each igniting gas molecule releases more energy that ignites the next molecule, and so on until all or most of the petrol gas has been ignited. If we apply this same analysis to water we would also find that if the exploding water indeed produced more energy than what was required to ignite it, then we may also assume that a chain reaction will take place where the water molecules will continue to ignite themselves until most or all have been ignited. But the water needs to be under the right pressurised conditions in the ignition cavity, just like the petrol gas is under the right conditions in the cylinder of a combustion engine.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 02, 2008, 12:07:19 PM
There is an advantage to discharging a coil as opposed to straight inverter output or energy from a cap, the coil as used by s1r will have a high or low a voltage as required, if the resistance is low it will put more amps over a longer period of time, if it is high it will generate a higher voltage.

Of course using a collapsing field from a coil is also somewhat tricky to get just right.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 12:13:36 PM
Hi callanan and Luc,
First of all congratulation and thank you for your so much important discovery.
Can you please callanan give us a description of how the cricuit operates (the one with the sin generator).. why is the use of the xenon light. Is it acting like a switch ? I am having trouble imagining how is works.

Thank you

Hi rednael,

You are correct. The xenon tube is only acting as a switch to discharge the 14uf, 350V capacitor inside the strobe light circuit. In regard to the operation of the circuits I have posted, please read through this thread from the beginning as I have describe most things about them in my previous posts. Here is a summary of some of my posts in chronological order.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108731.html#msg108731
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108956.html#msg108956
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109229.html#msg109229
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109475.html#msg109475

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 12:54:36 PM
I think there are some big questions and big assumptions here.  Have we have ruled out the dissassociation of water into H & O?  Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

We are assuming this behaves remotely like conventional petrol or gas combusion engines.  Will a higher compression ratio help or hinder? 

I'm guessing this effect is the working principle of lightening & thunder.  Lightening is known to be plasma discharge.  AFAIK, lightening doesn't need compressed air to work.  In weather terms, aren't storms the result of a low pressure region?  Maybe very low compression engines will be better than high compression? Less wasted power?  Storm clouds tend to be very tall, dense clouds.  I've tended to assume that lightening happens when there is sufficient water "shorting out" the potential difference in the atmosphere. 

Is liquid water better than a mist?

A small percentage of soluble oil might be beneficial mainly to stop rusting being a show stopper.  In time, I expect new engine designs will optimise this process.  Maybe if this is fairly low temp, we could use nylon piston rings or other plastic parts.

Maybe a steam engine type design is the way forward ...

Only experiments will find this out.   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 02, 2008, 01:58:53 PM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.
Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

Good Morning Dr. Stiffler,

Your discovery of using  a suspended gas in the water and then a plasma pulse setting off the whole mess is a whole new take on this process.  Also, if the piston/cylinder was full at the start of the power pulse, essentially a zero displacement engine due to the incompressibility of the water and then "POW"...as you say all "hell would break loose" as that water/mixture has to go somewhere!

Most excellent
Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Carbide_Tipped on July 02, 2008, 03:16:18 PM
Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

Yep, Instant change of state with HV and capitalizing on the latent heat.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 02, 2008, 03:41:51 PM
@all, I found this link to a patent for a "Plasma Arc Ignition System" designed in 1993. It describes the concept of a combined high voltage, high current system. Although this was designed for gasoline there are some parallels to the work being done here. The diagrams even suggest some spark plug designs that may work best with a plasma arc. I wonder if it's inventor ever thought to try the system with water?

Click on 'Documents' to view the 45 page pdf

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=CA1992000510&DISPLAY=DOCS

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 02, 2008, 04:02:19 PM
If millions of Joules of energy were expended by water evaporating on the surface of the ocean or a lake on a hot sunny day; wouldn't the surface be turned into a raging firestorm.. Or at least boiling? Some things about that theory are sounding odd.

Nor am i convinced that the effect the Dr.'s Graneau describe isn't disassociation anyway: How can they be sure that the energy doesn't come from the cracking of the molecule and subsequent implosion or explosion... With the result being near-instantaneous reformation back into water vapor? The observed effects might be exactly the same as what they report.

And "spectacular effects" do translate to significant energy being expended.... You cannot have them "for free". Something moves the air violently to make the noise, something causes the elongated flames to occur.

Not saying that the theory is "wrong", but it doesn't seem to be convincing for this instance, imo.

One thing is for sure: Mainstream science has yet a lot to learn about the real properties of water.

Maybe they will be shown something from all this  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: starcruiser on July 02, 2008, 04:04:39 PM
From the paper from Graneau, he mentions that a fog of water vapor can become explosive, I am thinking that this is the key in combination with the plasma arc. Thus we would need to create a mist of water then hit it with a discharge to really get the full effect. a closed chamber will be required to contain the mist and use an injector or other similar device to spray the water into the combustion chamber wouldn't you think?

The other method that comes to mind is to hit the water two or more times in quick succession, one to create the fog and the other to ignite it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 02, 2008, 04:16:57 PM
@gotoluc

You MUST get Moderator authority so you can delete the 'crapsters' else this will just be another multi-page joke that goes no-where.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 04:38:36 PM
@gotoluc

You MUST get Moderator authority so you can delete the 'crapsters' else this will just be another multi-page joke that goes no-where.

Yes Dr. Stiffler, you are correct!... I did ask Stefan but he has not done that wet. I also need to make changes to the first page and I cannot do anything here. We may need to move to another site to make this work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 02, 2008, 04:52:13 PM
The DR. is right Luc you can /should get that here  there is another thread here to comment freely This should stay here   others are watching that could also give Huge contributions Chet PS changing design of test tank for preload of 100 PSI[before combustion] chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 05:00:21 PM
Hi Luc,
I have moved the thread to a new board and put you as the moderator.

Now you can remove the non-fitting posting, if you want.

Look beneath the thread for the additional options as a moderator.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 05:00:31 PM
Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, I did some tests with the new circuit and here is what I found. Fist of all, I had forgot that I changed the capacitor to 3.3uf from the 1uf once I found this effect, so it is a 3.3uf cap used. Also I just got this variac and it looks like it can put out up to 160 volts and I was using around 150 volts. Next I tried to measure the current but I think none of my meters are giving reliable readings. The meter that worked best was my new analogue - digital and on the 10 amp scale it was only showing an average of about 200ma.

At everyone, my eyes have somewhat been affected by this but it's not so bad. But please all be more cautious than me and get some heavy sun glasses if you get to this point.

I will be out today all day. Got to go make some money :P. I hate this part of the World we have created.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 02, 2008, 05:55:46 PM
starcruiser,
Quote
The other method that comes to mind is to hit the water two or more times in quick succession, one to create the fog and the other to ignite it.

 That?s just what Myers had done. His injectors created a fog "energized steam" and then was ignited. This process has to be done instantaneously so that the hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen don?t cool and become one again.

 What is being done now, with the plasma, is just energizing the water and exploding the hydrogen at the same time. When water is energized, the water splits in to hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen, but the hydrogen and nitrogen clings to the oxygen. If they are allowed to cool, they become one again. The plasma can energize more water then the common spark can, the more voltage applied, the more water can be energized and therefore ignited.
 This is why week plasma can not explode very much water. Myers energized the water in the injector before the injector created the plasma spark. I believe he used the HV energizing process as a capacitor to create the plasma spark.

 Using just the plasma to explode water may just work in two stroke motors but I don?t believe it will work in 4 stroke motors. The amount of plasma it would take would blow a whole in the pistons of a 4 stroke motor. I believe this why Myers designed and used the energizing injector/sparkplug.
 I believe that the spark from the distributor cap would fire the injector which would spray energized water into the energizer and then create the spark. This would have to done within milliseconds of each other. Spray, energize, spark.

  Myers has done all the work for us, all we need to do is replicate what he has done and simplify it in a form that anyone can build. We all know that big money would never allow these injectors to be mass produced. Therefore, we must design and build them ourselves.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 06:27:51 PM
Hi all, I'm now having problems with my internet connection to this site only at this time, so I'm posting this from a remote location. I might need to keep changing IP but what ever it takes it will get done.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 06:35:34 PM
This water arc technology could probably also be good very well
for boat and ship?s propulsion systems.

Have a look at this:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/7/29/0355/45526

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 07:00:09 PM
Here are some basic illustrations and math about MHD generators and
MHD trusters:

http://www.plasma.inpe.br/LAP_Portal/LAP_Site/Text/Classical_Applications.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: starcruiser on July 02, 2008, 07:33:40 PM
@nightlife,

I think you may be correct, and appreciate the logical extension of the concept however I was simply providing the next possible testing idea, to take the enhanced discharge of the spark plug and use a pressurized water source thru a nozzle or injector and create a fine mist to test the ignition out come. I believe one step at a time is required to understand the principle and then further the design to make a usable device.

I have all components available to me and will engage in testing over the next week when I am on vacation, work just does not allow me the time to do these projects any longer it seems.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 07:46:45 PM
Have a look at this:

(http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/discharge.jpg)

At:

http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/mpdthruster.html

http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/ignition/ignition.html

Many thanks to user:
xilusma
for this info.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 02, 2008, 08:55:31 PM
@ hartiberlin
Impressive picture....but he's using a "propellent" gas.... and not water.
see what you think: http://www.myelectricengine.com/
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 02, 2008, 11:48:28 PM
........................
I have been told that if a magnet  holds  a weight  for an extended time no  work is done. Because  there is  no movement and no  energy input . 
If  an electro magnet is used to hold the same weight work IS done.
.........................

LOL!
This statement deserves a Poster. ;D

Best


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 03, 2008, 12:06:08 AM
@ hartiberlin
Impressive picture....but he's using a "propellent" gas.... and not water.
see what you think: http://www.myelectricengine.com/


Simular rocket propulsion can be achieved by using water
mist at very high pressure levels.

I once saw a webpage about using
water as rocket fuel from a guy,
who really had a very big rocket test stand
and lived in the desert or had his test stand there...


He tested all sorts of water combustions
and only when he used high pressurized water mist
he could fire this up and burn it in his
rocket motor.
It depended on the water pressure he told in his webpage..

When he finally found it out, how to use water in his rocket
engine, he did try to get a patent on it and pulled his webpage
off the Internet, so now this information is unfortunately gone.

He wanted to sell it to the military, so they could design
cheaper rockets.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 03, 2008, 12:09:48 AM
Stephan   maybe having seen his folly   he might show up here  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 12:30:46 AM
@ hartiberlin
Impressive picture....but he's using a "propellent" gas.... and not water.
see what you think: http://www.myelectricengine.com/


Also worth noting that it is Argon and not a combustible propellant.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on July 03, 2008, 12:44:44 AM
@all, I found this link to a patent for a "Plasma Arc Ignition System" designed in 1993. It describes the concept of a combined high voltage, high current system. Although this was designed for gasoline there are some parallels to the work being done here. The diagrams even suggest some spark plug designs that may work best with a plasma arc. I wonder if it's inventor ever thought to try the system with water?

Click on 'Documents' to view the 45 page pdf

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=CA1992000510&DISPLAY=DOCS

RD

Here dozend patents more ...
http://www.google.de/patents?q=PLASMA-ARC+IGNITION+SYSTEM&btnG=Search+Patents

Gustav Pese




















Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 12:50:39 AM
Quote
From: "fredrikh99" <fredrikhansson@telia.com>Add sender to Contacts To: WaterFuel1978@yahoogroups.comAlright, I just made a short video showing my latest installement. I
ran it on 200 Volt and it takes 7 amps on idle. When run it goes down
to 5-6 amps.

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=j0jXxPTvuGE

/Fredrik


I just recieved this quoted email. Here is the link to that video again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jXxPTvuGE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Haliburton on July 03, 2008, 12:58:15 AM
Hi guys, I started a new Energy Forum which is featuring gotoluc's findings that are here also. gotoluc has agreed to post his information here also. Please have a look here:  http://energyupdater.com/  and tell me what you think

Please keep it clean and pro.

 thanx guys

There still is room for a few more projects in the public library.

if you find any bugs let me know
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:03:11 AM
I think there are some big questions and big assumptions here.  Have we have ruled out the dissassociation of water into H & O?  Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

We are assuming this behaves remotely like conventional petrol or gas combusion engines.  Will a higher compression ratio help or hinder? 

I'm guessing this effect is the working principle of lightening & thunder.  Lightening is known to be plasma discharge.  AFAIK, lightening doesn't need compressed air to work.  In weather terms, aren't storms the result of a low pressure region?  Maybe very low compression engines will be better than high compression?


greendoor,  this may be the case here.  If ,and only if, s1r9a9m9 is telling  us the truth about his 1978 El-Camino running on just water(he did say that the engine was stock issue, unchanged)  then we can deduce that this could be  true since in 1978 GM had low compression engines in their vehicles as a result of EPA mandates dating to 1971 when the compression ratios were lowered significantly to comply with stricter emission controls.  Compressiom ratios in a typical V/8  before 1971 were around 10 to 1.  In 1971 onward to 1978, compression ratios went down to 8.2 to 1.  These were considered low compression engines.  My parents owned a 1975 Oldsmobile Toronado and I remember distinctly my father complaining of less power....you see the previous car was a 1970 Olds 98 with 10 to 1 compression ratio and 365 horse power 500 + pounds of torque!  Just some facts to put this in perspective.

Livingwaters08

 Less wasted power?  Storm clouds tend to be very tall, dense clouds.  I've tended to assume that lightening happens when there is sufficient water "shorting out" the potential difference in the atmosphere. 

Is liquid water better than a mist?

A small percentage of soluble oil might be beneficial mainly to stop rusting being a show stopper.  In time, I expect new engine designs will optimise this process.  Maybe if this is fairly low temp, we could use nylon piston rings or other plastic parts.

Maybe a steam engine type design is the way forward ...

Only experiments will find this out.   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 01:06:51 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 03, 2008, 01:10:47 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:16:52 AM
@gotoluc

You MUST get Moderator authority so you can delete the 'crapsters' else this will just be another multi-page joke that goes no-where.

Dr Stiffler,
JUST WHO ARE THE CRAPSTERS??   I take offense at this comment since we are attempting to get this out to the common people, all people of the world.  Please do not be so insulting as to refer to some who may not know as much as others, but willing, and trying to learn,as "CRAPSTERS". 

Very Incorrect of you Dr Stiffler!  Very Inappropriate!

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:25:29 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 03, 2008, 01:26:34 AM
Dr Stiffler,
JUST WHO ARE THE CRAPSTERS??   I take offense at this comment since we are attempting to get this out to the common people, all people of the world.  Please do not be so insulting as to refer to some who may not know as much as others, but willing, and trying to learn,as "CRAPSTERS". 

Very Incorrect of you Dr Stiffler!  Very Inappropriate!

Livingwaters08
@livingwaters08
If the shoe fits wear it. Gee wonder why you are so taken back.

You answered what a 'crapster' post is and my answer to you waste of bandwidth also meets the definition.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 03, 2008, 01:29:24 AM

I just recieved this quoted email. Here is the link to that video again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jXxPTvuGE

Nice video, on one of his video he tell how he do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYD9ESMF1sM
Quote
I just mix high voltage AC from a car ignition coil with a lower pulsed DC voltage at 220 volt. I have not tried with any water or steam yet but I'm planning to.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on July 03, 2008, 01:41:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMFvzohuVew&amp;feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFl-YN26kw8
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:47:02 AM
@livingwaters08
If the shoe fits wear it. Gee wonder why you are so taken back.

You answered what a 'crapster' post is and my answer to you waste of bandwidth also meets the definition.

Dr. Stiffler,

YOU ARE INCORRIGIBLE, AND VERY INCORRECT!! 
Are you for this water as fuel discovery to be shared by everyone? Just curious.

I was taken aback by your blatant lack of respect for a lot of us here....Clear enough?

Livingwaters08

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: clearchrome on July 03, 2008, 01:52:24 AM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie



Wow

I believe this callanan has a very interesting point here ..... we tend to always put more and more = more energy input ... KISS (Keep It Simple Please)


Based on his strobe design I found a strobe light tube (from RedLine co.) that I had bough 2 years ago at wallmart for 40$ CAD.

This strobe tube has 5 strobe lights with are fired at a user frequency (variator included in the unit that can be adjusted for your needs). 

The strobe has also 2 modes , linear sequential firing or randomized. I was wondering to myself that If you put a coil to each strobe and adjust the frequency triggering correctly, this unit might be quite usefull for testing multiple coil setup... you may test up to 5 cylinders on your car (Sorry for V6 cars loll )

I was also thinking that you can buy a Stun Gun, rated at 350,000v would that be a workable design?
They sell them for 20$ on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/350-000-volt-RECHARGEABLE-Stun-Gun-Flashlight-STUNGUNS_W0QQitemZ180259879830QQihZ008QQcategoryZ79850QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 03, 2008, 03:33:04 AM
@all, I was able to put together an Ossie C replication tonight using a strobe light. I recorded it with my Sony DSC-717. The circuit works great however the video turned out strange in that half or more of the very bright discharges are missing from the video, like they never happened  ???. The audio track is fine. Take a look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktbaJpCdNx0

Props to Ossie for a very effective & simple demo circuit. BTW the plug was cool to the touch after all that sparking and noise  :)  Also noted that if the center wire was pulled from the coil an arc will come right out of the center of the coil and discharge to the coil side terminal, that's a lot of energy!

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 03, 2008, 03:42:06 AM
KISS (Keep It Simple Please)
That spells "KISP" ...

LOL!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 03, 2008, 04:01:57 AM
@all, I was able to put together an Ossie C replication tonight using a strobe light. I recorded it with my Sony DSC-717. The circuit works great however the video turned out strange in that half or more of the very bright discharges are missing from the video, like they never happened  ???. The audio track is fine. Take a look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktbaJpCdNx0

Props to Ossie for a very effective & simple demo circuit. BTW the plug was cool to the touch after all that sparking and noise  :)  Also noted that if the center wire was pulled from the coil an arc will come right out of the center of the coil and discharge to the coil side terminal, that's a lot of energy!

RD

Hi retrod,

Thanks for replicating the circuit and confirming the result. But most of all, thanks for also letting us know how a video does not do justice in conveying just how much of an explosion it is when compared to the dry spark discharge when no water is present. It seems that the explosion is so fast that most digital video cameras do not capture much of it. So I just want people to know that so far, what they see in the videos provided is only a small extent of the real explosiveness that you will see on the bench in front of you, if you build it yourself.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: buzneg on July 03, 2008, 04:09:30 AM
Add KOH of NaOH to the water
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 03, 2008, 04:31:59 AM
deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 03, 2008, 04:58:54 AM
Tried steam tonight, it doesn't seem to do as good as just spraying water. I should have tried some electrolyte in it, didn't think about it til just now. Might try that tomorrow. I'll be hooking this up to a small engine over the weekend just to see what happens. I'm with the others on this, I don't see the point in taking this to a private thread.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Haliburton on July 03, 2008, 05:03:24 AM
Post deleted by gotoluc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 05:09:50 AM
Post deleted
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 05:55:22 AM
Hi everyone,

first of all I am here and not abandoning this topic at Overunity. Second thing is Stefan has now given me moderator privileges and it will help very much to keep the first page (where the updated schematic will be posted) up to date. I have just spent over 5 hours updating the first page and also gone through all the 1st page post to clean out what is not needed or off topic to help new comers get to the correct information without spending too much time. So after spending all this time and 9 more pages to clean I'm not giving up here.

As for the other site mentioned by user: Haliburton which at first I also was thinking he was Stefan, he contacted me to ask if I would be interested to post my finding on his new site to which I agreed since I want this information to go out to the World asap. So it is nothing more than that for now. Having moderator previlages here is going to help!.... Thanks Stefan.

@Haliburton I think your last post was not the appropriate way to promote your new site, so I have deleted it and also have made some changes in your previous post on a better way to introduce your new site here. We need to all work together or this will fail. I will be in touch with you since I have made some new updates.

At everyone please continue this topic as usual and please have a look at the first page since I have updated my schematic and the text content . My circuit is very efficient now thanks to the diodes that user calanan has recommended. Before with the microwave oven diode much of the high voltage was bleeding through it and that is the reason I needed a 150uf capacitor to make the circuit work. With the new diodes I now use a 2uf capacitor and the circuit works great in fact better. So thanks to calanan for his suggestion to use these diodes in the circuit. With just this change I do believe now that both our circuits are giving the same results. I have also noticed with this change that if the input voltage is around 140 volts or more you don't want to look at the spark without UV protection glasses ;)

Play safe and please do not take it personal if I deleted or change some of the content of your post because it is not a personal thing here is is about helping newcomers getting to the information they need to quickly replicate.

Luc


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 03, 2008, 06:42:23 AM
Hi Luc,

Thanks for the additional info, went to the new site and a little confusing!

Anyway, wanted to report on my results using a variac to a FWB thru a lawn tractor spark plug.

I did have a problem with getting the spark plug resistor out of a tractor lawn mower plug, but after more heat and more pressure the spark plug cap did open. The only problem was that the spring and the resistor must have shot out so fast that I didn't find it. Added copper wire to the empty space and got no resistance.

Then ran a spark without water spray, good spark and no problem. Then ran with mister and what a orange firecracker! But it blew my 10 A fuse on the variac. Will use isolation transformer as you posted next time. Only had 4-1N5404 in series, will get more.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 07:07:58 AM


http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/ignition/ignition.html



I am   having  some problems  understanding   figure 5 in the link above

I think it  would be perfect for a using  DC for the plasma  ......IF it works


As I understand it  .....if  our DC source was a  battery   the   entire   ignition pulse  would   go through   our battery

Even  if the  battery voltage floated on the   HV   ............the  HV would  still  be  affected by the  resistance of the battery

 

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 07:17:26 AM
Hi Luc,

Thanks for the additional info, went to the new site and a little confusing!

Anyway, wanted to report on my results using a variac to a FWB thru a lawn tractor spark plug.

I did have a problem with getting the spark plug resistor out of a tractor lawn mower plug, but after more heat and more pressure the spark plug cap did open. The only problem was that the spring and the resistor must have shot out so fast that I didn't find it. Added copper wire to the empty space and got no resistance.

Then ran a spark without water spray, good spark and no problem. Then ran with mister and what a orange firecracker! But it blew my 10 A fuse on the variac. Will use isolation transformer as you posted next time. Only had 4-1N5404 in series, will get more.

Regards, Larry

Hi Larry, great work ;D I'm happy for you to have a quick replication with results. You do need to have a minimum of 10 x 1N5404 diodes. That could of been the reason of a fuse blow on your variac. Also notice that the capacitor is now a 2uf at 150v to 200v.

Give us an update once you get all your diodes. Also, you may have damage to your 4-1N5404 in series you tested it with. So if I were you I would start will all new ones. Unless you have a diode tester or know of a reliable way to test them.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xilusma on July 03, 2008, 08:30:27 AM
@Gary and all,

The DC and HV-AC are not directly connected. He just used the HV for the bridge (arcing) before pulsing the DC. Just like Luc circuit (if I may say so) or any other arc welding circuit.

Regards,

p/s: I think there are similarity if not direct understanding of how the TPU's work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 08:49:15 AM
@Gary and all,

The DC and HV-AC are not directly connected. He just used the HV for the bridge (arcing) before pulsing the DC. Just like Luc circuit (if I may say so) or any other arc welding circuit.

Regards,

p/s: I think there are similarity if not direct understanding of how the TPU's work.

xilusma

Yes        I understand that the  point of the  whole  curciuit  is to isolate  the  2  sources of power
I understand   how the  coil  isolated the HV .........  I don't  see  how  the  low  voltage is protected


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
I am not good with circuits but I find that s1r has used the coils coil wire for the ground to charge what ever he has in the container. When the coil fires, it breaks the grounds connection.

 What can be charged by connecting a negative and positive and then discharged to the closest ground just by breaking the connection?

 What ever can do that, must be what he is using.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 09:32:01 AM
I am not good with circuits but I find that s1r has used the coils coil wire for the ground to charge what ever he has in the container. When the coil fires, it breaks the grounds connection.

 What can be charged by connecting a negative and positive and then discharged to the closest ground just by breaking the connection?

 What ever can do that, must be what he is using.

 

Nightlife

That sounds like the " normal " way to trigger  an  ignition coil


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 09:44:24 AM
But it blew my 10 A fuse on the variac. Will use isolation transformer as you posted next time. Only had 4-1N5404 in series, will get more.

Regards, Larry

Blowing a 10A fuse sounds relatively brute force, or in other words possibly underunity.

If we assume that what S1r did is real then it should be more energy out than we put in electrically.

So the question is, are there 2 ways to do this or only 1?  Is there a way that takes over 10A and another that pulls far less (such as Luc's first version) for the same result?

Is the isolation that S1r went to efforts to get required to get the effect OU, or can the circuit be grounded?

Very rude of me to ask questions without answering any of 'em I know....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 09:48:06 AM
Quote
Nightlife

That sounds like the " normal " way to trigger  an  ignition coil


gary

 

 Gary, you are exactly right. Now what kind of ignition coil operates off 110?

 The best thing I can think of is a oil furnace igniter coil. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 10:53:50 AM


 Gary, you are exactly right. Now what kind of ignition coil operates off 110?

 The best thing I can think of is a oil furnace igniter coil. 


Nightlife

Are you sure it is 110 V  ?

As far as I know an oil  furnice  coil is  just a transformer .......it is very similar to  a neon  sign  transformer . 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I  just went back and watched the  videos  again
I didn't   try to  trace the wires

I did notice  something I missed before
The  first time I watched video1   I noticed  that the first thing you see   is a close up  of the  place to connect  the  place to connect the  fuel line  ......... I had thought  that  he  was connecting  the  hose  there .

In  the  2nd  video he removes the   float bowl .......and  holds it in  front of the camera for a second . 

I didn't  realise before that he was just   running water  into the intake .
He  is clearly  " flooding " the engine
I am pretty  sure that you  won't  get ANY  gas engine  to run that  steady by  doing that  that  .      IF you can get it to run that way at all .

The gas air  mixture has to be  fairly close  .......... with this process I think   all you really need  enough  water .
I  am thinking   that the times   in  video 1 where he  rotated  the  engine  by had was  to clear partial hydro lock

Now I am  thinking that the way  to  control  the  engine power is to vary   the  low voltage .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 03, 2008, 11:03:13 AM
Makes fascinating reading guys, using the strobe light makes for an easy way to replicate.

I was thinking what would be the simplest engine to try this in?, could a model steam engine be used or adapted?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: powercat on July 03, 2008, 11:16:29 AM
Hi Luc & @

so if we run the exhaust into the intake as a closed loop on an engine.Then water could ignite at spark plug ,will it reform to water ready to burn again?
Hope so ;)

pc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 12:02:00 PM
resonanceman,
Quote
Are you sure it is 110 V  ?

As far as I know an oil  furnace  coil is  just a transformer .......it is very similar to  a neon  sign  transformer .

 I didn't say 110 v, I said 110 referring to the outlet. We cant really tell what volts or amps are actually being used but we can probably assume it is putting out 120V at about 30amps. Not that the wires are consuming that much. We would need to see a volt meter and a amp meter attached to know for sure.

 As for the oil furnace coil just being a transformer, that maybe true but it is pulsed and it does put out a lot hotter spark, especially in a salamander heater.
 Actually, I am thinking of the salamander more so then the furnace. I use salamanders in the winter and I have had to take them apart and change the plug. I just happen to have one I can take apart and see what it uses to create the spark. I assumed a coil due to the coil wire. Then again, my assumptions have been way off before and they may be once again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 03, 2008, 12:03:54 PM
I was thinking what would be the simplest engine to try this in?, could a model steam engine be used or adapted?

Personally I'd be thinking along the lines of either lawnmower/chainsaw engines or even model aircraft engines. The problem with using a steam engine is that although they are powered by pressure, they don't work with a spark plug so you'd have to mod it to fit one.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 03, 2008, 12:09:01 PM
@Nightlife and Starcruiser and All

There is an engine that seems most suited for experimental purposes.  It is the 4 banger in the mid 80's Nissan Hardbody line of pickups.  It has a carb and dual ignition like an aircraft engine with two spark plugs per cylinder.  One plug fires and soon after the other plug fires. "energize and then fire".  It has two ignition coils to do the task.  It has a distributor with two coil inputs and 8 out.  Does not have the complicated computer controls that fuel injection engines have.

All kinds of flexibility are possible with this engine:
Easy to advance or retard timing, mess with the carb, mess with the two spark plugs, or make a special water injector and use one on the spark plug holes.

I think the Nissan Maxima around this time had a passenger car version.  It had a timing belt, the pickup used a chain.  Get the truck, more room around the engine.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 03, 2008, 01:09:53 PM
Personally I'd be thinking along the lines of either lawnmower/chainsaw engines or even model aircraft engines. The problem with using a steam engine is that although they are powered by pressure, they don't work with a spark plug so you'd have to mod it to fit one.
Model Aircraft engines use a glowplug, http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/model-airplane-engines.html so not sure how suitable they would be, maybe something like a small weedwacker/strimmer engine would do.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 03, 2008, 01:13:41 PM
Luc.

Referring to Page 1 and your circuit diagram. (thanks) and S1R's comments. Where should the 2nd booster coil be placed and have you tried it?

Rgds.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 01:19:08 PM
Personally I'd be thinking along the lines of either lawnmower/chainsaw engines or even model aircraft engines. The problem with using a steam engine is that although they are powered by pressure, they don't work with a spark plug so you'd have to mod it to fit one.

Forget the model aircraft engine, they are not suited at all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 03, 2008, 01:19:27 PM
@Luc: All hail the Moderator! ;) ;D

but seriously, what is the direction you'd like this to go, Luc?
Do you want to move toward using this very cool effect in an actual engine,
like s1r9a9m9 (claims he) has done?
Or are you more interested in studying the effect itself?

I myself would like to see if s1r9a9m9's V8 running on water without need
for battery recharging setup really works, and if so, convert a car
to run on it... And a generator as well, to produce real free energy to
power the household.
After all, if it is indeed possible to run a V8 on it, then it must be possible
to run a generator on it... And if the V8 car never needs battery recharge
because it is truly OU, then obviously so would the generator.
Perhaps it would even be better to focus on getting a generator to run
on this, and just use an electric car. Lotus has a nice one coming out
soon, and with all the $$ I'd be saving on electrical and gas bills
it shouldn't take very long to be able to get one of those...

Luc, I ask because well it was your thread to begin with, although
I think we're all very happy that Ossie jumped in too :), and because
I see people trying to (and sometimes succeeding) replicate the effect,
but no clear goal or direction we're working towards...

Who of us here is anxious to try it in an engine setup?
I myself would love to get started right away, but unfortunately I am a terrible
mechanic and just fixing something on a normal car engine already takes
ages, so I don't think I am the one to head this off. ;)
I am definately willing to waste my time trying to replicate someones example
though, so if someone has or can give a clear step-by-step overview of how
to alter the engine and probably most importantly the circuitry involved and
how to hook that to conventional controls, that would certainly help a lot.

Sort of like that great description Ossie gave of the test circuit.

So, what does everyone think? :D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 03, 2008, 01:31:24 PM
Hi retrod,

Thanks for replicating the circuit and confirming the result. But most of all, thanks for also letting us know how a video does not do justice in conveying just how much of an explosion it is when compared to the dry spark discharge when no water is present. It seems that the explosion is so fast that most digital video cameras do not capture much of it. So I just want people to know that so far, what they see in the videos provided is only a small extent of the real explosiveness that you will see on the bench in front of you, if you build it yourself.

Regards,

Ossie



 Thanks again Ossie. I checked out my camera this morning. It was designed as mainly a photo camera so the video recording rate is fixed at only 16 frames per second. This would explain the strange drop outs on the video. I noticed the camera also tries to level out the audio, so you really can't appreciate how much louder the arc becomes with the water spray. Like you said, folks need to build this themselves and see and hear for yourself.
 Too all, be sure to protect your eyes, a 'welders burn' is very easy with this system due to the intense spark flash and maybe uv being emitted.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 01:54:09 PM
I don't think Luc could answer that, obviously he would like 1,000 replications of S1R's effect in cars before the end of the week, but it is each experimenter that is going to have to do the work, take the risks and pay the bills (and learn the skills).

That said this is going to be useless if no one trys it in an ICE, so any experimenters who have the right skills and gear should definitely try that, but let's face it not everyone here has the skills or an ICE to try this on.

However to get as many decent tests on ICE's then a list of suitable cheap motor types would be a good idea. (assuming there is no way to 'fix' that issue?)
Apparently most/all 2 stroke engines are a poor choice because the fuel is the lube, so then what small engines are suited and what are the prices and practicality?

It strikes me that engines that have a starter motor should be favored strongly, I am sure everyone has had a pain of a time trying to start a lawn mower or maybe outboard engine and that is with petrol.

Not sure but what about scooters or motorbikes?
Generators also sounds very practical (if the motor suits?) since all the energy can if need be in a marginal system go into recharging the battery. (even if it just powers it's self with just water input most would consider that good enough to prove the principle)

The other thought would be to befriend someone who is into messing around with cars, let's face it most people here have experience with electrical stuff and maybe other things but probably not too many working on cars much, since fuel prices are up if you can think of someone you know there is a decent chance that you could get them interested in donating their time/tools/knowledge/parts. (if you do the electrical they may be happy to do the rest)

There are enough stories of water being added to gas creating greater mpg's (with no other modifications) that it makes sense that at first you could just add a small percentage of water, see how that goes and then add the HC to explode the water, increase the % as you go.

While I think a car running on water would be the best way to get attention in the world at large I think a self powering 'just add water' engine would be best to get replications happening on here ;)

So before too long we need to get decent ICE info on here but first we need a circuit diagram that does not use an inverter, Luc has done it but has not yet made a diagram of this. (not that it sound too hard)
I must say, if anyone on here can get an ICE running on this and be open and not all mysterious this issue will get very big very fast, no kidding.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 03, 2008, 02:17:34 PM
Forget the model aircraft engine, they are not suited at all.

I hav been flying R/C aircraft 52 years and I beg ta differ............In fact I am modifying an old FOX 78 to run using this process................Will take time, I'm a slow builder/modifier.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 03, 2008, 02:31:13 PM
However to get as many decent tests on ICE's then a list of suitable cheap motor types would be a good idea. (assuming there is no way to 'fix' that issue?)
Apparently most/all 2 stroke engines are a poor choice because the fuel is the lube, so then what small engines are suited and what are the prices and practicality?
Yes, good point on the lube. That, plus the fact that second hand engines are not at all that expensive, plus the fact that "normal" car engines are more
practical to use for the next step of driving your car or using them as a generator, leads me to think it may be just as usefull or even more so to just
skip the phase of everyone buying small motors to test this setup with, and just going for larger second hand car engines.
But it may not be. ;)
The small engines I have looked at so far were generally two stroke engines or ethanol run model car engines, the first seems like a bad idea due to the
lube, the second may be usefull but I'd have to buy a new one plus control circuit and that is not very cheap... I could almost get a second (probably
third or fourth but who's counting) hand old car engine for the same money... And a couple of years ago, before the financial shite and the oil prices
skyrocketing, I could have bought a fairly new 100% working modern electrical generator for that same price (in the region I lived at the time). :)

Quote
It strikes me that engines that have a starter motor should be favored strongly, I am sure everyone has had a pain of a time trying to start a lawn mower or maybe outboard engine and that is with petrol.
Yeah, seems like a good idea, unless of course you need the arm exercise. ;)

Quote
Not sure but what about scooters or motorbikes?
Well I'm sure. I wouldn't go for those.
Quote
Generators also sounds very practical (if the motor suits?) since all the energy can if need be in a marginal system go into recharging the battery. (even if it just powers it's self with just water input most would consider that good enough to prove the principle)
Exactly. :)
and many generators have engines very similar if not identical to car engines.
I guess the engines may need to be waterproofed though, as there will be water vapour contacting much of the internal surfaces
and we don't want the stuff to rust now do we?


Quote
So before too long we need to get decent ICE info on here but first we need a circuit diagram that does not use an inverter, Luc has done it but has not yet made a diagram of this. (not that it sound too hard)
I must say, if anyone on here can get an ICE running on this and be open and not all mysterious this issue will get very big very fast, no kidding.
Yeah, I think you're right there. But we should watch out we don't get a Steorn-effect as in that the whole world suddenly jumps to this thread and
forum, swamping the FE community with overexcited statements, hindering the actual development process, and then having to perform public
demonstrations before actually being ready for it. (I'm not even going to mention that this works and the Steorn thing didn't)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 03:24:33 PM
Hi Luc & @

so if we run the exhaust into the intake as a closed loop on an engine.Then water could ignite at spark plug ,will it reform to water ready to burn again?
Hope so ;)

pc

Powercat


Yup

Sr19  siad   he  ran the exhaust  into  the  fuel tank   to  recondense  it  ....... rather than  a tail pile  coming out of the  fuel tank  he vented   the   filler cap . 

If   your  cooling loop  was big enough  pretty much all  the  exhaust  should condense .



I would  love to try   to power  a sterling engine  with   water arcing .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:25:58 PM
@Gary and all,

The DC and HV-AC are not directly connected. He just used the HV for the bridge (arcing) before pulsing the DC. Just like Luc circuit (if I may say so) or any other arc welding circuit.

Regards,

p/s: I think there are similarity if not direct understanding of how the TPU's work.
Hi xilusma, very good observations. I is interesting you are talking of an arc welder because yesterday I was working on some renovation work at my uncles new home and was explaining to him this circuit since he is a real EE and how it is really only a short circuit and that is the first thing he said (this is the principal of a ark welder)

Thanks for posting

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:33:03 PM
Hi Luc & @

so if we run the exhaust into the intake as a closed loop on an engine.Then water could ignite at spark plug ,will it reform to water ready to burn again?
Hope so ;)

pc
Hi powercat, yes it should reform to water. If I remember correctly S1R exhaust was going to a stainless Steel tank where the water would condensate and start the loop again.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 03:36:00 PM



 Actually, I am thinking of the salamander more so then the furnace. I use salamanders in the winter and I have had to take them apart and change the plug. I just happen to have one I can take apart and see what it uses to create the spark. I assumed a coil due to the coil wire. Then again, my assumptions have been way off before and they may be once again.

Nightlife

WHhat   is the sparkplug like om a salamamder ?

a  sparkplug  with a bigger gap might be handy .................longer  spark more plasma ............more plasma more power .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:38:54 PM
Luc.

Referring to Page 1 and your circuit diagram. (thanks) and S1R's comments. Where should the 2nd booster coil be placed and have you tried it?

Rgds.
 

Hi Dread, at this time we don't wet see a need for it. It seems the small 1uf or 2uf could be doing the same thing. Just replicate my simple circuit and get familiar with the effect and then try making changes one at a time.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:44:28 PM
@Luc: All hail the Moderator! ;) ;D

but seriously, what is the direction you'd like this to go, Luc?
Do you want to move toward using this very cool effect in an actual engine,
like s1r9a9m9 (claims he) has done?
Or are you more interested in studying the effect itself?

Sort of like that great description Ossie gave of the test circuit.

So, what does everyone think? :D

Hi Koen1, The direction I would like this to go is to use this effect to make a combustion engine work.

I'm off to work for the day.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 03:46:32 PM
@Nightlife and Starcruiser and All

There is an engine that seems most suited for experimental purposes.  It is the 4 banger in the mid 80's Nissan Hardbody line of pickups.  It has a carb and dual ignition like an aircraft engine with two spark plugs per cylinder.  One plug fires and soon after the other plug fires. "energize and then fire".  It has two ignition coils to do the task.  It has a distributor with two coil inputs and 8 out.  Does not have the complicated computer controls that fuel injection engines have.

All kinds of flexibility are possible with this engine:
Easy to advance or retard timing, mess with the carb, mess with the two spark plugs, or make a special water injector and use one on the spark plug holes.

I think the Nissan Maxima around this time had a passenger car version.  It had a timing belt, the pickup used a chain.  Get the truck, more room around the engine.

Tishatang

Thanks  Tishatang

2 sets of plugs ?

It  does sound  almost ideal ........only way  it could be better is  if it had  dual  carbs .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 03, 2008, 03:49:25 PM
Some points to consider before jumping on a car conversion.
1. If you convert a car how will you be able to run the car in the winter when the outside temperature freezes ? Auxiliary heater perhaps but that starts adding more elements to conversion.
2. What will water combustion do to a car exhaust system or to the engine over a period of time ?
3. If the conversion fails you have a large object to get rid or to explain to the wife why you have a new lawn decoration.  ::)
4. Cars can range from simple to complex so having a base car engine for everyone to use would be harder to achieve.  :-\
5. EPA regulations and red tape in US states that have emissions checks for cars. 

Some points on a small electric start engine.
1. If it does not work out you are only out a couple of hundred bucks instead of a couple of thousand.
2. No real EPA regulations to deal with.
3. More easy to dispose of engine if fails.
4. Exhaust systems are cheap to replace.
5. You may even be able to run indoors so water freezing is not as much a concern or at least it would be more easy to vent the exhaust.

I agree that ultimately a form of transportation would be the most desirable to get running on water but it maybe the most complex for the first attempt. A generator to run your house or recharge a electrically converted car maybe easier and just as useful for the first go around.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 04:00:51 PM

 so if someone has or can give a clear step-by-step overview of how
to alter the engine and probably most importantly the circuitry involved and
how to hook that to conventional controls, that would certainly help a lot.


Koen

That is  exactly what  we are working on here .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 04:20:16 PM
I hav been flying R/C aircraft 52 years and I beg ta differ............In fact I am modifying an old FOX 78 to run using this process................Will take time, I'm a slow builder/modifier.

Ben


Ben

I like  your  spirit   

 :)

 It has been  many years  sense  I have   looked  at a model engine .   
Can you  pull  the  heating  element

  part of the  glow plug out and  replace it with a  copper wire  ?

Other than  the lube  issue  my  big concern  is the  compression  ratio .
unless  you   add an ignition  system  .you  will have to rely on   the  compression  ratio to  fire  it off .

I have no idea what   that compression ratio would be .   

Is it  possible to   change  the   piston  rod or  something to get  different  compression ratios ?

 


I have no idea  what would  be the  best thing to use for  creating your arc .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 03, 2008, 04:37:52 PM
Hi All,

Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

Whilst further endevouring to increase the efficiency of the capacitor discharge circuit, tests revealed that a great deal of energy is wasted whilst the plasma is on because the power supply is still connected and as such is also powering the plasma even after the capacitor discharge is complete. This causes a great deal of wasted energy in heat and the requirement for a loading resistor in series with the power supply which also wastes energy in the form of heat.

Further analysis revealed that there was a requirement to disconnect the power supply whilst the capacitor discharged into the plasma so as not to waste energy. Forgoing a complex HV switching circuit, I found that an inductor could assist in holding the wasted energy from the power supply whilst the capacitor is discharging into the plasma and then when the plasma switches off, the back emf of the inductor will dump it's stored energy into the capacitor ready for the next discharge and so the power supply energy is not wasted but used. Please see the circuit diagram below.

As you can see in the video, this circuit is not only very simple but it is very efficient in getting most of the input energy to the plasma discharge. The plasma is so bright that it is like a welding arc but WITHOUT the heat when water is used, or else the spark plug does get warm but not hot if left dry. I have used this circuit continuously at pulse rates from 20 to 100 Hz with no problems and very little heat in any components.

At higher pulse rates it is difficult getting enough water into the plasma but if you manage to, it will shoot out like a jet engine flame with an equivalently loud noise as well. The light is so bright that I recomend dark glasses whilst testing this circuit and the noise is so loud, whilst pumping water into it continuously from high pulse rate explosions, that I also recommend ear plugs as my ears are still ringing...

At pulse rates from 20-70 Hz the input current at 12 volts to the inverter was between 2.5 and 5 amps. For the inductor I simply used a 12V standard car relay coil.

In my opinion I believe that this circuit so far will perform the best on a real engine. So I think I am ready for this step next.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 04:39:59 PM
I just thought I would make one more comment   before I  leave for a while .


I  saw someone  commented about  wearing   sunglasses or something  when looking at the arc .

I would say that  most sunglasses  don't  have enough   UV protection to do alot of good .
Weldinng goggles  or something  similar  should be used  if you  spend any amount of  time looking at the arc .

The  pain   you feel in your eyes  after  looking at  ANY arc  for a  little while is     from something  like   sunburn on  your retina  .   And yes the damage can be permenent .                 Dark  sunglasses  may or may not  have UV protection .
If they don't have UV protection    they will cause your pupels to dilate more ........causing   your retina to  burn even faster .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 03, 2008, 04:51:48 PM
Koen

That is  exactly what  we are working on here .

gary
Oh? Well I understand that is the goal, but most of what I've seen
posted here recently has zero to do with an engine and everything
to do with a circuit that produces a plasma which can ignite water aerosol...
And so I got the impression that what was happening here did not
really include the engine conversion part of the plan yet...
... but perhaps I overlooked something... ;)

Oh, and on a sidenote I don't think anyone nowadays has sunglasses
without UV filter of some sort... But you welding goggles suggestion
may be a good one. :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 03, 2008, 04:55:18 PM
ALL dont look into the light #11 shield at least or turn and watch the shadow  you are welding here  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 03, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
ALL dont look into the light #11 shield at least or turn and watch the shadow  you are welding here  Chet

Hi ramset,

Good advise. We certainly have a continuous arc that is very bright like an arc welder. But instead of producing such a bright arc with 1000-2000 watts input as in an arc welder. I am now doing it with just 60 watts input... Such is the difference when there no or very little heat output, unlike an arc welder...

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 05:18:55 PM

Nightlife

Are you sure it is 110 V  ?

As far as I know an oil  furnice  coil is  just a transformer .......it is very similar to  a neon  sign  transformer . 

Nightlife, resonanceman, and group,

Let's remember s1's description of the 3 coil setup in his recent post on Waterfuel1978.  He describes the coil in great detail.
Here's his post:

Re: New video 2


There are three windings on the coil, one main winding, one on each
side with deferent number of windings in each, the two windings on
each side are wound through the main winding , as 1 being a winding
and 2 being a winding and 0 being the main winding, it will look
like this 1-0-1_2-0-2. the windings are not touching each other but
they are wound through the main (0) winding, this replaces the double
coil set in the relay system. I will post the number of turns on each
winding as soon as I have all the info put together. None of the
windings have the same number of turns so the harmonics deffer when
current passes through them. This also is helping to block the 110v
from the 12v. This coil does not replace the HV coil on the vehicle.

S1R.

From this description....Is this a Tesla Coil?    Hope this helps to perfect the circuit.

Livigwaters08


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I  just went back and watched the  videos  again
I didn't   try to  trace the wires

I did notice  something I missed before
The  first time I watched video1   I noticed  that the first thing you see   is a close up  of the  place to connect  the  place to connect the  fuel line  ......... I had thought  that  he  was connecting  the  hose  there .

In  the  2nd  video he removes the   float bowl .......and  holds it in  front of the camera for a second . 

I didn't  realise before that he was just   running water  into the intake .
He  is clearly  " flooding " the engine
I am pretty  sure that you  won't  get ANY  gas engine  to run that  steady by  doing that  that  .      IF you can get it to run that way at all .

The gas air  mixture has to be  fairly close  .......... with this process I think   all you really need  enough  water .
I  am thinking   that the times   in  video 1 where he  rotated  the  engine  by had was  to clear partial hydro lock

Now I am  thinking that the way  to  control  the  engine power is to vary   the  low voltage .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: stu on July 03, 2008, 06:09:24 PM
Hi Ossie,

I'm a non electronics person who has been keeping an eye on the watercar1978 forum for 2 years now, and of late this forum,and I am gathering parts to build the 9v batt circuit supplied earlier - once this is done and the circuit understood (by myself!) then the next stage would be to convert that circuit to this latest one that you have just posted.

As the Siggen is just being used to replicate the high speed firing of the ICE, is it a simple matter to replace that whole aspect of the circuitry with the pos & neg from the strobe being wired directly to the pos & neg of the coil and then the inverter circuit tied in to the neg of the coil and the coil output just as it is in the latest diagram?

I just want to try and prove my replication in stages and attempt to understand some electronic basics while I go.

Many thanks - Stu (from Northern Ireland)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 03, 2008, 06:10:10 PM
Hi ramset,

Good advise. We certainly have a continuous arc that is very bright like an arc welder. But instead of producing such a bright arc with 1000-2000 watts input as in an arc welder. I am now doing it with just 60 watts input... Such is the difference when there no or very little heat output, unlike an arc welder...

Regards,

Ossie
Ossie, I was looking over your latest schematic, the one with the inverter. The top half looks to be the same in function to a standard ignition, let's say for a single cylinder engine with a battery ignition system (like an old garden tractor). The bottom half has the inverter and the few diodes, caps and a coil that might be what's inside s1's 'can' we saw in the video's. What do you think?

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sigmaX on July 03, 2008, 07:32:31 PM
My Two cents:

If you video record your testings and the resulting sparks with a camera and notice that although you can personally see the plug to spark continuously, the video  afterwards shows that sometimes there is no spark, it is just that the video cameras are not "continuous recording capable": They take 25 or 30 "pictures" per second. It just happens that in the moment of SOME of those pictures, there is no "spark" going on. Which shows also that the spark life is very little (definitely less than 1/25 or 1/30th of second).

You might use slow motion cameras (or some of the new digital cameras) that shoot 60 or more frames per second, if you want to register it correctly, or synchronize the sparking to the camera shutter (this last paragraph is theoretical, as I am sure it is not necessary, we believe anyway, if you say, that the spark is there ;) )

Regards,

Enrique (sigmaX)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 07:57:10 PM
Oh? Well I understand that is the goal, but most of what I've seen
posted here recently has zero to do with an engine and everything
to do with a circuit that produces a plasma which can ignite water aerosol...
And so I got the impression that what was happening here did not
really include the engine conversion part of the plan yet...
... but perhaps I overlooked something... ;)

Oh, and on a sidenote I don't think anyone nowadays has sunglasses
without UV filter of some sort... But you welding goggles suggestion
may be a good one. :)

Koen

You  didn't miss anything .

It  would be nice to jump to the end of the game and have   finished  water powered engines  running  our cars and  powering our  homes ......   We ain't there yet .  ........  We are  still working on   understanding   the   arc and how  best to make it  .
It  just doesn't make sense to   try  step  3 and 4 when  you   still have a bunch to learn about step 1

gary
Title: ??
Post by: vlpe on July 03, 2008, 09:11:51 PM
HI all

why use inverter if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 03, 2008, 09:15:02 PM
@ everyone
I did in fact burn my retina from welding arc (still remember the pain!).... If you should happen to get careless and experience some piercing pain in the eyeballs, this works to ease the pain (fairly quickly)... take a raw potato and shred it as a poultice ... lay back in a darkened room close your eyes and put a handful over both eyes.  (Like putting raw hash browns over your eyes).  It works.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: billd on July 04, 2008, 01:16:12 AM
Hello everyone,

   I have been reading your posts and I think you are going in the right direction.  I spent too much time building HHO generators and now believe plasma initiated water has the only hope of really working.
   More to the point of this thread,  the two sources of voltage need to function and be protected form each other since they sum at the spark plug.  The high voltage spike from the spark coil (SC) or magneto could damage the inverter and rectifier (IR) and unwanted current flow from the IR through the SC secondary or magneto could damage the SC or magneto and or burnout the IR itself.
    To protect the SC secondary & IR from over current without using diodes,  I propose a second spark gap between the SC top and the spark plug, a function supplied by the distributer, rotor and cap of older ICEs.  The IR current should not flow through the SC secondary ever but should only flow through the spark plug gap and for a few milliseconds after the SC initiating spark (controlling duration is a future issue) .   
   To protect the IR without high PIV diodes I propose a 3 element low pass filter (LPF).  A  isolation transformer is a form of LPF and would help protect an inverter but won't protect the bridge rectifier.  A single capacitor (one element LPF)  may protect the IR but could shunt the HV pulse.  But a series  inductor, shunt capacitor, series inductor (properly done) LPF would protect the IR without shunting the HV pulse.  A  LPF will also smooth the output of the IR.   . 
    Diodes can be used but I think you will find that commercial solid state is no match for the harsh ?under the hood? environment of a automobile.
   I have also been reading several S1r replicator posts and and for the what its worth file, some folks believe a hot engine is a necessity before fueling with water.
If I'm completly wrong about these proposals just disregard.
Billd
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 02:02:18 AM
Hi Ossie,

I'm a non electronics person who has been keeping an eye on the watercar1978 forum for 2 years now, and of late this forum,and I am gathering parts to build the 9v batt circuit supplied earlier - once this is done and the circuit understood (by myself!) then the next stage would be to convert that circuit to this latest one that you have just posted.

As the Siggen is just being used to replicate the high speed firing of the ICE, is it a simple matter to replace that whole aspect of the circuitry with the pos & neg from the strobe being wired directly to the pos & neg of the coil and then the inverter circuit tied in to the neg of the coil and the coil output just as it is in the latest diagram?

I just want to try and prove my replication in stages and attempt to understand some electronic basics while I go.

Many thanks - Stu (from Northern Ireland)

Hi stu,

It is a good idea to build the simple strobe device and see and understand how it work. With the other circuit, the sig gen is simply to replicate an ICE firing the ignition coil. But if you are considering trying the strobe circuit on an ICE, it will not serve your purpose as it is only capable of charging it's capacitor up about once every second. It is only being powered by a 9V battery after all. The strobe device is simply a demonstration device to shown how easy it is to explode water with little input power.

Regards,

Ossie


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 02:03:31 AM
UPDATE:

So, i got bored with bench tests, i have tried many design and they all worked great! Bright plasma flame and a loud snap.  ;D ;D

I wanted to move on to the next logical step. So i got out the BS 13 hp mower. I took the plug wire on the engine and used it in place of my bench test automotive coil (same theory) NOTHING WORKED!!!! As it seems, every time the DC is hooked up to the top of the plug, i get NO arc of any kind!! Without the DC hooked up i get a normal ignition arc. I have even went as far as to make a voltage doubler to go from 110VDC to almost 290vdc. STILL NOTHING!! Every design gave the same results...NADA!

I also installed a ammeter between the inverter and the battery. When i try the setups on the mower the meter does not even move at all when the motor is turning over.

 :-\ I am so lost now...  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 02:17:03 AM
Ossie, I was looking over your latest schematic, the one with the inverter. The top half looks to be the same in function to a standard ignition, let's say for a single cylinder engine with a battery ignition system (like an old garden tractor). The bottom half has the inverter and the few diodes, caps and a coil that might be what's inside s1's 'can' we saw in the video's. What do you think?

RD

Hi retrod,

Correct. The top half of the circuit is simply simulating the ignition system of an ICE including the ignition coil. The bottom half is all that needs to be applied to an ICE if this circuit is to work on an ICE. But please note that I am note claiming that it will. I believe the next step for some of us is to prove IF it will work on and ICE. We have just been engineering the plasma discharge first.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 03:08:12 AM
UPDATE 2:

OK...i got it to work!!   ;D ;D ;D

In my effort to make it as if the plug was in the block, i put a a wire from the block to the the body of the plug (just as if it was in the block), that was sitting on the table. With the wire connected it does nothing....but with out it...STAND BACK!!!! lol GREAT plasma flame and sounds. But that does not help the problem that the plug still needs to be in the block.

I used the voltage doubler with a 330uf 400v cap through diodes to the top of the plug. I still had the ammeter hooked up, the plasma hit every time the engine revolved and the meter NEVER MOVED!!!!! It would seem to be VERY little or no draw!!

I feel much better now...BUT my 73" Mitsu TV died today  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 04, 2008, 03:24:12 AM
Hi Group,

Got my parts today.  I am GLAD Luc got moderator privileges to delete 90% of the garbage on this thread, as most threads tend to accumulate.

Koen and others... the purpose of this thread was to establish, develop and improve on A CIRCUIT to create a plasma arc.  All too often (as is the case here, and in most threads) people come in, read the first page and the last page without reading anything else in between, and then take up huge amounts of time (from others) to answer the very questions you are asking, but HAD YOU READ THE THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE, the answers were already there.

As far as applying it to an ICE... we ALL already KNOW the plasma arc is the critical step and the rest has already been done by two people now (S1R and JCBX)!  Luc, myself, Ossie and a few others have been here from the start of this thread and working toward the goal established by this thread... AGAIN, to come up with a circuit that draws as little energy as possible, and still generate a powerful plasma arc.  Ossie, you have been a huge contributor, and I'd like to personally thank you for all your input.  Luc, you started this thread, and your vision must be commended as well, especially by taking the ORIGINAL position of FOCUSING ON THE CIRCUIT.

Dr. "S" took the words from my mouth with his EXACT comment about "crapsters" posting in here 100% off topic, introducing extraneous topics, and breaking the focus of this thread!  If anyone wants to contribute, please do so, ONLY ON TOPIC, but PLEASE stop posting things that are not DIRECTLY RELATED to our focus!  Personally, I'd rather see this thread have zero postings for days on end (which hopefully means people are actually experimenting) than to have to weed through post after post of Off Topic DRIVEL!   If you want to talk to someone, send them a personal message and keep it off the forum.  THIS IS NOT A CHATROOM!

If someone wishes to be part of the team effort here, then at least do some minimal research (even if its only to ACTUALLY read this ENTIRE thread) where much of the questions many are asking has already been answered.  DO A LITTLE WORK YOURSELF, EVEN IF ITS ONLY TO READ!  I am trying to avoid using this term, but I can't find one that doesn't sum it up completely... STOP BEING SO  LAZY!

If you don't have anything to add to the thread and the focus of this thread, kindly monitor it and read along, and learn, but PLEASE STOP POSTING OFF TOPIC. 

Nuff said! 

BACK ON TOPIC - My group is using the circuit posted by Ossie with the 10 - 1N4007 diodes and the 16 - 1N5404's, but with a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter.  We will then use the latest Ossie circuit with the car relay in it.  From there, my team will apply it to an ICE (1974 Chevy Blazer with 350 engine and 4 barrel carb, just like S1R's El Camino). 

WHEN all this works, hopefully we can devise a simple circuit to eliminate the inverter, as it seems to be too bulky (but a great tool for initial experimentation).  With improved circuit designs to reduce energy input, a big inverter is probably overkill, since right now, Ossie's last circuit is only drawing 60 watts. 

Our thought is to use a toroidal coil to supply the main power, and use a coil (plus other components)for each cylinder's plasma arc.  This should eliminate the need for an inverter, reduce overall size of the circuitry to make it easier to fit under the hood, and attempt to make it a "plug and play" module that can be used on ANY engine.

I will keep everyone informed of my group's progress, video record things as we go along and post them!  FOCUS is the key here to reduce input energy and have a high energy plasma output!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2008, 03:30:06 AM
UPDATE 2:

OK...i got it to work!!   ;D ;D ;D

In my effort to make it as if the plug was in the block, i put a a wire from the block to the the body of the plug (just as if it was in the block), that was sitting on the table. With the wire connected it does nothing....but with out it...STAND BACK!!!! lol GREAT plasma flame and sounds. But that does not help the problem that the plug still needs to be in the block.

I used the voltage doubler with a 330uf 400v cap through diodes to the top of the plug. I still had the ammeter hooked up, the plasma hit every time the engine revolved and the meter NEVER MOVED!!!!! It would seem to be VERY little or no draw!!

I feel much better now...BUT my 73" Mitsu TV died today  :'( :'( :'(

Congradulations  on  getting    your engine  turning over

It sounds  very promising

It is  one thing to  get it  done ........  But  it is  even better  if it is   efficient  too .



gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: buzneg on July 04, 2008, 03:48:36 AM
I got info from a big company who does this for Plus Detonation to make oxy-hydrogen. he said they use plused plasma, and that I won't find out what they use to catalyse it. I don't know if they made to gas to send it to the jet engine, or inside the engine. I said KOH, he didn't confirm or deny it. But KOH would probably also split up in the plasma, and be used as a fuel too. I was wondering if charging the water in a Hydrogen generator would help, it would add energy to it. H2 and O2 mixed in the water..
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 05:37:30 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 06:01:47 AM
Hi gang,

Simple Glow R/C model engine modified with small shop tools to make a possible working engine of the type discussed on this list.  Here is the progress (just disassembly for now with a lot of thought) and a short discussion on what you must do to make a "simple" plasma/spark engine work using an engine of this type. 

I am simply trying to make a proof of concept engine from what I have available.  I don't have a car I can modify, I don't have a lawnmower I can modify, I do have a small 25 cc weed whacker engine I could modify but don't really have the room.  I live in a condo, my workshop is a 2 X 4 closet (worlds smallest lab) so I do with what I have.

I won't go into the electronics portion of what we need as that has been beaten to death and being a retired R&D and industrial electronic tec. the electronics is a non issue to me.....There are so many ways to make it work, that it basically boils down to how you want to do it. 

Mechanically you have to understand what is required and go from there.  You also have to understand what you are working with when you use a 2 cycle model motor.  Read up at any number of places on the net how one of these motors work and then stop and think what you will have to do to use it in this application.

To make a operating engine of this size, you must have a low friction embodiment of a IC engine.  When you have less than 1 cubic inch displacement, things have to be free AND lubricated. 

You have to have a reliable way to deliver an atomized mist to a spark plug.

You have to have an accurate exaust valve system to adjust the timing on the engine.

So what it all boils down to is you need a well lubricated pump, with water injection a spark plug and a timing valve!.

This is what I am doing.  Engine used is a FOX 78 R/C engine, to be modified this way.

1.  Carburetor which is a very nice close tolerance rotary valve throttle body injection device is removed from the intake at the front of the engine and will be used as an misting injector/rotary valve timing device.

2.  Intake will be blocked.

3.  Crankcase will be ventilated with discrete porting to remove positive/negative pressure as piston goes up and down.  The bottom of the crankcase becomes a zero pressure device and is filled partially with a light oil to keep the main bearings and connecting rod bearings lubricated.  Essentially a splash lubrication engine like a multitude of small lawn mower engines.

3a.  A moderate 6" flywheel will be mounted on the crankshaft where a propeller would normally be.

4.  Piston rings are removed to remove friction and piston is used and stands on its own close tolerance.

5.  Glow plug removed from and hole filled in with JB weld slow dry.

6. Carb unit is drilled and tapped to receive a 1/4 X 32 model spark plug UNDER the atomizing main jet.

7.  Head is machined on top to receive the throttle unit and it essentially becomes a throttle body/injector/valve unit.

8. Operation of the top end of the engine is as follows:   The throttle body will be open about 300 degrees of time during 1 rotation so as the piston comes up, there is very little pressure in the top end of the engine at this point.  After TDC, the piston will suck air in the venturi, over the needle valve assembly, drawing a mist into the engine and on the spark plug immediately under the needle valve.  @ about 35 degrees, give or take after TDC on the down stroke, the throttle body rotary valve will be snapped closed via a cam or a solenoid.  (remember this is just a proof of concept) the plug will fire, piston will continue downward and bottom porting as built into the engine will open and pressure be vented.  Throttle body will open, and remain open until the next downward movement of piston. Ruff guess, rotary valve will be closed ONLY during power pulse, probably about 40-60 degrees.   I don't know yet if I will operate it as a two cycle with power pulse every stoke or 4 cycle, every other downward stroke, time will tell on that.  Top lube will be by intermittent light oiling of throttle body assembly, there will also be blow by of mist out of the throttle body during the up stroke but as it is only water!!!! who cares and it will also provide lubrication to the rotary valve......

This engine is not designed to run for hundreds of hours or at high RPM. 60 to 100 rpm will be just fine! I just want it to run.  Thats all for now.  Tomorrow, the 4th here in the USA, we have a big party and celebrate our "Independence" so will get serious over the weekend, still waiting for spark plugs to come in the mail.

Pictures here as to what I am working with.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 04, 2008, 06:30:24 AM
Hey xbox,condolences on your tv.I was looking at your circuit diagram,what would happen if your coil wasnt grounded at the base of the plug?Could that possibly make any difference at all?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 06:37:51 AM
I just remembered, S1R said something in a post a long time ago about using a seperate battery for the inverter. Maybe this is my problem, I need to isolate it. When I blew both of those inverters it was like it was feeding the 110 back into the inverter on the 12volt side. I have no trouble at all with using mains power and a rectifier, well not until today. I hooked up the primary side of the IC to a distributor I had laying around and was gonna use that to pulse it but when I hooked up the 110 to the circuit all hell broke loose. It blew up my rectifier and kicked the breaker. The distributor was laying on a metal table but the rest of the circuit was insulated. I guess it fed back thru the drill press that was on the same table somehow. This is why I'd like to know exactly how this circuit works, I mean the flow path of the electricity.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 04, 2008, 06:42:26 AM
K4zep

Thanks for heading into the ''NEXT STEP''.

The RC engine is a great candidate as it is as simple as an ICE can get.

THANK YOU and good luck.

Many here have focused on the circut but few if any have addressed the application based on what I see here, you would be the first. 

Be Well
Tinker   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 04, 2008, 06:43:01 AM
I could be wrong,but i thought he said he only used to batteries because when cranking starter it tended to kick out inverter due to starter drawing amps.
Title: Water Sparkplug Concept Duplicated Again
Post by: qiman on July 04, 2008, 06:44:10 AM
Great job Gotoluc and Ossie,

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Not sure if you agree with the explanation, but the electroradiant event you have is fragmenting the heaviside flow away from the conductive wire.

Take care,
Aaron
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2008, 06:47:25 AM
I just remembered, S1R said something in a post a long time ago about using a seperate battery for the inverter. Maybe this is my problem, I need to isolate it. When I blew both of those inverters it was like it was feeding the 110 back into the inverter on the 12volt side. I have no trouble at all with using mains power and a rectifier, well not until today. I hooked up the primary side of the IC to a distributor I had laying around and was gonna use that to pulse it but when I hooked up the 110 to the circuit all hell broke loose. It blew up my rectifier and kicked the breaker. The distributor was laying on a metal table but the rest of the circuit was insulated. I guess it fed back thru the drill press that was on the same table somehow. This is why I'd like to know exactly how this circuit works, I mean the flow path of the electricity.


It  could be that    your   inverter  was  grounded somehow

If you  remember   S1r    made a point  of  explaining that the   inverter and I believe the  relay box had  to be insulated .... the only  point that the  inverter circuit  connect with  any other  circuit is  at the spark plug .

gary 
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 07:03:06 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

Hi bumfuzzled, which circuit are you using?

At everyone, I have posted this before but I will say it again since some don't read all my posts. Look at the first page of this topic again. I have updated it and my circuit. You need to re-read page one since there are many text changes which can help you.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 07:03:07 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I understand that many may be eager to attempt to start building these circuits to test them but I must stress that unless you understand how they operate, as well as have some experience in building and testing electronic circuits, it is likely to be an expensive and possibly also dangerous excercise for you. So please understand what you are building and how it works before you proceed as there are many traps for the inexperienced.

One these traps that is most likely the cause of people blowing up their all solid state inverters is that the HV pulse from an ignition coil can be either positive or negative. In all of my circuits, the ignition coil pulse is always positive. But in practise, it can be either.

To accommodate this you will need to make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections. You must then test the polarity of you ignition coil's output pulse by using a long string of LV diodes or some HV microwave oven diodes, preferable 3 or four in series, to prove if the HV pulse coming out of your ignition coil is negative or positive. Once you have proved this, then when you connect the output of the diode string from you inverter circuit, you will connect it to the spark plug positive if your ignition coil pulse is positive or to the spark plug ground, if your ignition coil pulse is negative.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 07:32:02 AM
Hey xbox,condolences on your tv.I was looking at your circuit diagram,what would happen if your coil wasnt grounded at the base of the plug?Could that possibly make any difference at all?
Thanx wopper for your kind thoughts....LOL Just one more thin i have to fix

ANYWAY..If it was not grounded...it would not arc at all. It seems to be a catch 22 i need ground for the HV and ground for the DC...but not both at the same time.  :-\
Title: Re: Water Sparkplug Concept Duplicated Again
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 07:34:32 AM
Great job Gotoluc and Ossie,

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Not sure if you agree with the explanation, but the electroradiant event you have is fragmenting the heaviside flow away from the conductive wire.

Take care,
Aaron

Hi Aaron, thanks for doing this great video and posting it here for us to see. Your explanation sounds good ;) we will hopefully all be looking at this.

Keep us updated and please feel free to copy my first page of this topic which I just updated the text and my simple schematic and please also include calanan's great posts to help spread this information at the Energetic Forum also.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 04, 2008, 07:57:10 AM
Powering a car is going to be fraught with difficulty.  The water freezing issue could be a show stopper for many.  Then there is the rusting, and the bent con-rods when the cylinders hydraulic ...

Vehicle emmissions shouldn't be a big problem - but I expect a nasty backlash from government authorities, on whatever trumped up charges they can think of.

There might be easier solutions for putting this effect to use.  What about a water pump arrangement?  This could prove overunity, and be used to power conventional electric generators or heatpumps or compressors. 

I'm thinking a small pressure vessel with a couple of non-return valves as inlet and outlets.  An open-to-atmosphere gravity tank would maintain a head of pressure on this tank, to maintain a constant supply of water to this pressure vessel.  The spark plug would fire at timed intervals, and the blast would force water up a pipe to the gravity tank - perhaps through a turbine load. 

Although very simple, this could be very dangerous.  I would recommend building in a failsafe rupture disk - or a vent with some rubber hose that could blow in the event of an excessive pressure build up.  The device could be buried or housed in a concrete sheild or whatever.  I'm thinking generous pipe sizes - the idea to minimize the pressure and maximise the flow rate.  Very small sparks @ very low power, creating a big flow is going to impress people that overunity has ARRIVED!

A simple device like this could be replicated widely and put into agricultural use - the economic advantages would not be lost on most people who have to pay for the priviledge to pump water.  Maybe this could purify the water at the same time ...


EDIT Do we know if a completely submerged plug will fire?  If the theory is correct, the energy is from converting liquid water to vapour state.  That suggests that starting with vapour is wrong - can we start with liquid water?

If an air gap is actually required, a couple of probes in the pressure vessel could sense when water had refilled to a set level and trigger the spark ...

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 04, 2008, 08:08:15 AM
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 04, 2008, 08:18:22 AM
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

Nothing that some electronics couldn't fix.  The pulse from the magneto could be used to just as a timing pulse.  I believe this system will require more Retarded timing, which can be achieved with a small time delay.  If Advance is required, an even longer time delay would give a phase shift of slightly less than 360 degrees which achieves the same thing.  The trick is to make the time delay track the RPM - but nothing that some electronics couldn't solve.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 04, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
Interesting thought from  http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4139758.html

Quote
With the growth of the offshore industry it has become essential to be able to make welds under water to a standard that satisfies certain nationally and internationally recognised welding codes. Attempts have been made to weld underwater without taking any steps to protect the welding arc from water. These have been unsuccessful, partly because water entering the arc becomes dissociated and the hydrogen thus formed is dissolved in the weld pool. The rapid quenching effect of the water on the weldments creates hard martensitic structures in the heat affected zone (HAZ) which are susceptible to hydrogen induced cracking, owing to hydrogen diffusion into the heat affected zone, particularly in joints subject to restraint.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 04, 2008, 08:55:27 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

I actually checked to make sure I wasn't somehow accidentally on the wrong page, you seriously need to stop buying inverters!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: capacitor70 on July 04, 2008, 09:40:33 AM
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 10:15:57 AM
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html

Hi capacitor70 and all,

One thing I'd like to point out here in regard to the credibility of video claims of water only powered engines. Ben and I have recently discussed how they have a distinct and peculiar noise they make when they fire. It is almost like what an engine sounds like when the spark plug is out and it is turned over. They sound also does not have the same bang to it as with a normal petrol engine.

So I hope this video is the real thing here as it fits these characteristics just as s1r9a9m9's videos do but hell, I would just like to shake this guys hand for doing this on a motorcyle engine with just a kick start! The guys got a whole lot of optimism and it is people like this who can make the difference for all of us here.

Soon he will get his air-waterfuel mixture right and have that engine running continuously and when this happens, I am sure we will be seeing many more videos of more people doing this same. So let's all cross our fingers here...

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 04, 2008, 11:06:26 AM
There have been some really good posts here in the last 24 hours that echo my current sentiments - that we really need to establish what we are working towards here. I gather from some of the later posts that this thread is all about the spark itself and the circuitry needed to produce it efficiently and reliably. I must admit, I am a little more comfortable with this knowledge as I did sometimes wonder if this thread wasn't just a whole lot of misdirected enthusiasm that was ultimately going to lead us nowhere.

I'm glad we seem to have established the purpose of this thread. I do think that there are a lot of highly talented people here and, just like any open source project, much talent is wasted if it's not channelled effectively towards a bigger plan and common purpose. I also think that we should acknowledge and use the talents of those who are skilled at things other than electronics in order to make this project a reality.

So, what I personally think we need to do is come up with a plan of where we ultimately want to go then divide and conquer. Some say this could pose challenges for auto engines, others say stick to generators, others want to replace diesel with water. What if we made this a 'project'? Start our own forum, move this thread there, and create other threads for discussing aspects beyond circuitry. I have limited knowledge of electronics, a heavily limited budget, and not much spare time. So does this mean I have nothing useful to offer this project? Of course not! There are all sorts of factors to consider before we come up with a plan for what we are aiming for, but I think we need a roadmap so people can see progress, and perhaps a table that shows who has done what and when. It seems there's a lot of people here who say "I just bought a such and such but i'm tired so i'll try it tomorrow" but how many of us go back to read their post explaining how it went? If we do read it, do we realise it's the same person? Do they actually post their findings at all? I don't know - I find it hard to keep track of who has done what.

I'm just terrified of losing our key talents and a record of their progress when people just disappear. Speaking of which, everyone always quotes s1r... Where is he? Bring him on I say! Someone must know him, so why is he not here??

I hope this topic stays here because it being deleted would be a classic case in point of what I want to avoid - one track mindedness. This project needs a soul. Let's give it one.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: stu on July 04, 2008, 12:24:30 PM
Hi stu,

It is a good idea to build the simple strobe device and see and understand how it work. With the other circuit, the sig gen is simply to replicate an ICE firing the ignition coil. But if you are considering trying the strobe circuit on an ICE, it will not serve your purpose as it is only capable of charging it's capacitor up about once every second. It is only being powered by a 9V battery after all. The strobe device is simply a demonstration device to shown how easy it is to explode water with little input power.

Regards,

Ossie




Thanks Ossie, but what I was thinking of was purely about proving the new circuit on the bench (my build quality) - with this in mind is it okay to drive it with the srobe, in the way I had mentioned, before considering attaching it to an ICE?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 01:07:06 PM
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html

Hi Cap70,

Wow, I feel I'm running at the back of the pack here.  You obviously have your electronics down pat for your engine but you have a real water/fuel delivery problem.  A carburetor is designed to atomize gas into a vapor, mix the correct amount of air and then the engine runs on it.  The plasma process doesn't use a vapor from a carb but I think needs a wetting of the plug with water, injection/mist, etc.  But my hat is off to you!!!! 

The strange thunka thunkkkkkkk sound of all the water engines I have heard run so far,  I suspect are caused by the timing firing position and the air intake noise we are not used to hearing as it sucks in air ....

The funny thing is it might be possible that this engine doesn't need intake air to run, only displacement for the generated hydrogen/oxygen gas to burn plus the pressure wave from the break down process to expand on the down stroke of the engine!  If this theory is correct as to what I hear when an engine is running, it has very little to do with compression as compression is going away when the plug fires somewhere after TDC (35 degrees?). 

Anyway, all keep at it..............I am encouraged!!!!!  Now I have to go peel potatoes for tater salad for this afternoon, Honey doooosss,
motor can wait. Family and boat trip for 8 this afternoon can't.


Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 04, 2008, 01:07:27 PM
make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections.

Hi Callanan,

I enjoyed your vids and posts.

My inverter had built in protection so it simply trips itself to prevent overload. Then I simply turn it off then back on and it is fine.

There are some very specific ways to design the circuit so that worrying about the isolation is not even an issue. There is extra benefits to this that I will discuss later.

Anyway, if someone wants most of the circuit you're showing for free...go to any grocery store that processes photos and tell them you're doing a science project and ask for some disposable cameras. You will get free strobes, batts and photoflash caps. You won't drive around the planet with that :), but it is free usually and is enough for anyone to demo the effect to themselves. Other than the disposable camera that was tossed, battery, plug, wire and ignition coil.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 02:20:29 PM
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

All you have to do is remove the key from the flywheel then you can set the timing wherever you want. Just be sure to tighten the flywheel back down real good. Yes there's some guess work but you can get it close enough. This is what the go kart racers do to them.

I have an old Honda 550 4 cylinder sitting in the shed that would be easy as far as getting the timing right but 4 cylinders would be much harder to get running than one cylinder so I'll stick with the little B&S for now.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 04, 2008, 02:48:34 PM
Alright, alright, perhaps I'm just a bit overanxious to get to the engine part. :)
I'll turn it down a bit. ;)

I just got the impression we were already doing very well with the plasma ignition
and the circuit that I thought we might be ready to move to the engine part of
the story already.
And since s1r9a9m9 has been posting about his working V8, I thought "here we go". :)

But if you guys want to work out the circuit some more and come up with a
"standardised" circuit for this before we start trying things in engines,
that's fine with me.
Don't let my enthousiasm complicate your circuit tests. :)

@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 02:48:48 PM
Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I understand that many may be eager to attempt to start building these circuits to test them but I must stress that unless you understand how they operate, as well as have some experience in building and testing electronic circuits, it is likely to be an expensive and possibly also dangerous excercise for you. So please understand what you are building and how it works before you proceed as there are many traps for the inexperienced.

One these traps that is most likely the cause of people blowing up their all solid state inverters is that the HV pulse from an ignition coil can be either positive or negative. In all of my circuits, the ignition coil pulse is always positive. But in practise, it can be either.

To accommodate this you will need to make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections. You must then test the polarity of you ignition coil's output pulse by using a long string of LV diodes or some HV microwave oven diodes, preferable 3 or four in series, to prove if the HV pulse coming out of your ignition coil is negative or positive. Once you have proved this, then when you connect the output of the diode string from you inverter circuit, you will connect it to the spark plug positive if your ignition coil pulse is positive or to the spark plug ground, if your ignition coil pulse is negative.

Regards,

Ossie



Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

Quote
Hi bumfuzzled, which circuit are you using?

At everyone, I have posted this before but I will say it again since some don't read all my posts. Look at the first page of this topic again. I have updated it and my circuit. You need to re-read page one since there are many text changes which can help you.

Luc

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 02:52:23 PM
All you have to do is remove the key from the flywheel then you can set the timing wherever you want. Just be sure to tighten the flywheel back down real good. Yes there's some guess work but you can get it close enough. This is what the go kart racers do to them.

I have an old Honda 550 4 cylinder sitting in the shed that would be easy as far as getting the timing right but 4 cylinders would be much harder to get running than one cylinder so I'll stick with the little B&S for now.


Right on.

Please realize this is NOT an Carb. vaporizer ignition device.  What a difference an on demand direct distilled water mist injection system on the plug, to the head would make!!!!!  A idealized injector system would be slightly different than a normal fuel oriented injected mist to vapor system in that it would be oriented towards the plug and not as direct into the combustion chamber only.   My kingdom for a workspace and a machine shop!  If folks on this list are not excited now, just roll over and watch the Simpson's and forget about it! 

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 02:55:18 PM
Thanks Ossie, but what I was thinking of was purely about proving the new circuit on the bench (my build quality) - with this in mind is it okay to drive it with the srobe, in the way I had mentioned, before considering attaching it to an ICE?

Hi stu,

Only if you intend your ICE to run at 60 rpm at most for a single cylinder 2 stroke or 120 rpm for a single cylinder 4 stroke. Just put your points in series with the output of the xenon tube to fire at the right time.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 02:59:18 PM
Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

Try a 110VAC light bulb in series with the high side of the inverter/diode chain. Put it between the INVERTER output and the DIODE. This will protect the inverter and fix the big spike on it during pulses! It will light up when motor is running and limit current. Ossie is dead on about polarities!  In that video on YouTube of the kick start motorcycle motor that almost runs, notice the bulb.


Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:25:08 PM
Alright, alright, perhaps I'm just a bit overanxious to get to the engine part. :)
I'll turn it down a bit. ;)

I just got the impression we were already doing very well with the plasma ignition
and the circuit that I thought we might be ready to move to the engine part of
the story already.
And since s1r9a9m9 has been posting about his working V8, I thought "here we go". :)

But if you guys want to work out the circuit some more and come up with a
"standardised" circuit for this before we start trying things in engines,
that's fine with me.
Don't let my enthousiasm complicate your circuit tests. :)

@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...

Hi Koen,

I really only can answer your sentiments here by stressing how important it is for people to get the electronics and the discharge plasma right before trying to apply it to an engine. Even though we can present it as simple, for many lesser experienced, in practice I am sure it is not simple for them. But we must endevour to assist people to understand and get the electronics and discharge right. This is because if people were to jump straight in and try and get a motor running, without the correct plasma discharge, they will fail and if many people fail they will report it as so and then sooner than later everyone will be saying it does not work, cannot work and never had worked. So where as I applaud people for going ahead and trying to get an engine to run I am hesitant to encourage them to do so before they are able to understand and get the electronics and the correct plasma discharge occuring in their spark plugs, because if they don't they are doomed to failure.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 03:29:01 PM
I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:37:58 PM
Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

Hi bumfuzzled,

You need to prove the polarity first so that you know and understand why you are connecting the output of the diode string to either the high pin or the base of the spark plug. To prove the polarity coming out of your ignition coil you must simply test which direction the spark travels through a string if diodes. If you get a spark with the test string of diodes pointing to the engine ground then the ignition coils output is positive and you need to connect the power supply output diode string to the high pin of the spark plug. If you get a spark with the test string of diodes pointing to the ignition coil then you need to connect the power supply output diode string to the ground of the spark plug. This polarity test using a test string of diodes is done between the ignition coil output and the engine ground only.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlpe on July 04, 2008, 03:42:53 PM
anybody can answer: why use inverter, if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??  Thanks a lot
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:47:10 PM
I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.

Hi bumfuzzled,

I beg to differ about the cause of the sound. I have ran many a petrol engine without a muffler in my time and I am sure most will agree with me that it is not something you put up with for long. A petrol engine without a muffler is a terribly loud sort of cracking sound.

But I do want to point out another thing we have noticed on these supposed water engines and that is that there does appear to be something like water vapour coming out of the exhaust and not smoke as that you would expect from a petrol enine. This exhausted water vapour soon just dissapears and pretty quickly becomes invisible or falls downwards.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: petersone on July 04, 2008, 03:48:17 PM
Hi vlpe
I think it's to get a higher voltage,suppose you could use mains or a bunch of 12v batteries.
Someone will tell us if I'm wrong.
happy hunting
peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 03:48:37 PM
Another thing to think about is these motors with a magneto and points have a waste spark at the top of the exhaust stroke. Is the inverter able to charge the cap up quick enough everytime for both sparks?? You electronics gurus will have to figure that one out. A motor running at 3000 rpm with a waste spark will pulse the HV 3000 times a minute so that's 50 times a second, can the inverter keep up??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:52:45 PM
anybody can answer: why use inverter, if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??  Thanks a lot

Hi vlpe,

My tests have shown that you need at least 90-100 volts minimum to cause a plasma discharge across the ignition spark in a spark plug set for a standard gap. An inverter raises 12 volts to 110 or 240 volts for this purpose. Many other methods and DC power supplies can be used for this purpose. But considering the relatively cheap price of inverters these days, it is quite convienient to use one. As long as you know what your doing and don't blow it up...

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 03:55:14 PM
Hi bumfuzzled,

I beg to differ about the cause of the sound. I have ran many a petrol engine without a muffler in my time and I am sure most will agree with me that it is not something you put up with for long. A petrol engine without a muffler is a terribly loud sort of cracking sound.

But I do want to point out another thing we have noticed on these supposed water engines and that is that there does appear to be something like water vapour coming out of the exhaust and not smoke as that you would expect from a petrol enine. This exhausted water vapour soon just dissapears and pretty quickly becomes invisible or falls downwards.

Regards,

Ossie



Yes they are etremely loud without a muffler but yer listening to a video so yer not getting the full dynamics of the sound. My neighbor was mowing his yard the other day without a muffler on it and it sounded just like these motors, he was a good 100 yards away so the loudness of the motor was not there for me to hear. I could hear that distinctive pop. I've ran mowers, motorcycles and other small engines without muflers and yes they are extremely loud but they all also have that same distinct pop. With water it may not have the loudness with it but there is only one way to find out so off I go to experiment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 04:03:07 PM
Another thing to think about is these motors with a magneto and points have a waste spark at the top of the exhaust stroke. Is the inverter able to charge the cap up quick enough everytime for both sparks?? You electronics gurus will have to figure that one out. A motor running at 3000 rpm with a waste spark will pulse the HV 3000 times a minute so that's 50 times a second, can the inverter keep up??

Hi bumfuzzled,

Please see the last circuit and results I posted as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109796.html#msg109796

I have run this circuit up to 100Hz with no problems. At 70Hz it only uses 5 amps at 12V on the inverter's input. The inverter was delivering only 60 watts where it is designed to deliver up to 300 watts continuously. I know you have been blowing up inverters and are trying to do this but please try and read and understand all of the previous posts regarding the circuits. Get someone to help you if you need to. This may help you to have more success.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 04:20:27 PM
@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...
Yes, that is correct, but obviously it wouldnt work if the plug was in the motor...LOL

I think the best part was the ammeter did move when fireing. But now i killed the starting gear, so i got to try to find a new one.  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 04:33:20 PM
Hi bumfuzzled,

Please see the last circuit and results I posted as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109796.html#msg109796

I have run this circuit up to 100Hz with no problems. At 70Hz it only uses 5 amps at 12V on the inverter's input. The inverter was delivering only 60 watts where it is designed to deliver up to 300 watts continuously. I know you have been blowing up inverters and are trying to do this but please try and read and understand all of the previous posts regarding the circuits. Get someone to help you if you need to. This may help you to have more success.

Regards,

Ossie



I remember you posting that now that you mention it but my point is (and I guess I should have stated it) that on a V8 motor you've got 8 times the pulsing going on of that of a single cylinder motor. So at 3000 rpm on a V8 motor you've got it pulsing at 200 times a second. I recall S1R saying his car would only idle, someting to think about. I'm not trying to cause problems so don't think I am, I'm just bringing up legit questions. I'm with the other guy that said if people try this circuit and it don't work because, like me, they don't know electronics or because it will only let the motor hit a few times or only idle then you'll have people out there saying that it doesn't work. I want this to work just as much as anybody out there.


EDIT: I edited this post because I forgot that a V8 does not have a waste spark. The distributor is turned by the cam and it turns half the speed the crankshaft does so there is no waste spark.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 04, 2008, 04:34:05 PM
@bumfuzzled

Thanks for the tip to change the timing.  I am not a small engine mechanic.  It seems to me, I remember years ago reading using offset keys to change timing.  Of course those guys had a machine shop to get the timing exactly where they wanted it.

It all seems moot because Cap70 answered me on another thread that his motor had no altered timing.  This seems contradictory to what I recall the original guy said with the running V-8, that the timing was retarded 25 degrees.  It is also moot for me because he also said two-cycle engines will not work because the water sits on the piston.  He said to use 4-cycle with high compression.  So that leaves out my electric start two-cycle engine.  Unless maybe the water was pre misted instead of liquid?

I just had a thought for the day someone is ready for a big engine.
In my old hot-rodding days they had belt driven Paxton centrifugal superchargers.  If you installed one after the carb, the high speed fan would help mix the water droplets before the engine.   

tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 04:40:17 PM
@bumfuzzled

Thanks for the tip to change the timing.  I am not a small engine mechanic.  It seems to me, I remember years ago reading using offset keys to change timing.  Of course those guys had a machine shop to get the timing exactly where they wanted it.

It all seems moot because Cap70 answered me on another thread that his motor had no altered timing.  This seems contradictory to what I recall the original guy said with the running V-8, that the timing was retarded 25 degrees.  It is also moot for me because he also said two-cycle engines will not work because the water sits on the piston.  He said to use 4-cycle with high compression.  So that leaves out my electric start two-cycle engine.  Unless maybe the water was pre misted instead of liquid?

I just had a thought for the day someone is ready for a big engine.
In my old hot-rodding days they had belt driven Paxton centrifugal superchargers.  If you installed one after the carb, the high speed fan would help mix the water droplets before the engine.   

tishatang


I'm not sure what he means by it sits on the piston but a 2 stroke is not a good idea because the fuel/air mixture goes thru the crankcase first, that's why you mix the oil with it, to lube the bearings on the crank and rod. If you run just water thru it it will seize up pretty quickly.

I have a Trans Am sitting in the garage with a roots supercharger on it and yes the thought has crossed my mind of one day runing it on water. That would have many benefits that I won't go into at the moment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 04, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
I think EV Gray used a circuit almost identical to the one posted, my understanding was that a HV source was used to produce a plasma arc across two conductors, this plasma would then conduct a large 12v current source(batteries) across the conductors. Plasma is a perfect conductor thus the HV arc was used as a means to switch a large current source on and off much like ionization does in radio tubes. Because the HV arc controls the duration time of the large current source the discharge time can be made extremely small. As well there must be two currents flowing in the conducting space, one high voltage/low amps the other low voltage/high amps which is interesting in itself. This small duration high energy impulse between the conductors was said to produce "radiant" effects that EV Gray used to power an electric motor and recharge his batteries. There is the possibility this is a very "natural" process, when we consider lightning we have always thought that the discharge is a high voltage/high current discharge. But maybe the high voltage discharge in lightning is nothing more than a conducting path for the naturally occurring potential gradient (100v/m)found in earths atmosphere--the current source. Nicola Tesla in his "colorado notes" also mentions the fact that lightning appears to be "thicker" at its root nearest the earth and that he had measured standing waves in earths atmosphere produced by lightning strikes.
Very interesting stuff  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 05:09:29 PM
Hi everyone, just to let you all know I posted this reply to Super God's post at the other topic.

Luc

I don't know why luc created the other thread.  We have gotten excellent results with capacitor70's circuit.  User jcbx6 over in the waterfuel1978 group has gotten his volvo to run on water with the same circuit capcitor70 is using.  So over here we are making progress rapidly.  The postal service is slower than molasses so I still have to wait before I can get mine working too.

By the way, I don't think this system uses THAT much electricity that it would drain a battery.  You would need two, however, because the starter motor drags down the voltage so much it would put the inverter in self protect mode.

Looking good so far, full steam ahead.

Hi Sg, I created the other thread because I found that water explosion could be achieved without a large capacitive discharge and that seems to be very interesting and worth looking at just that. Also please note that S1R has said his system does not use capacitors.  So, in order to not create confusion in this thread since you are using a different approach I started a new topic. At this time my updated circuit (on page one) of the topic I started uses only 1uf or 2uf depending on the inverter output.

Are you sure user jcbx6 at the waterfuel1978 group is saying his Volvo is working on water at this time?

@capacitor70 my congratulations :D to you in demonstrating that it is truly possible to get a ICE to run on water ;)

Keep up this important research :) we will find the way to get this done one way or another.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 05:30:25 PM
Hi everyone, just to let you all know I posted this reply to Super God's post at the other topic.

Luc

Hi Sg, I created the other thread because I found that water explosion could be achieved without a large capacitive discharge and that seems to be very interesting and worth looking at just that. Also please note that S1R has said his system does not use capacitors.  So, in order to not create confusion in this thread since you are using a different approach I started a new topic. At this time my updated circuit (on page one) of the topic I started uses only 1uf or 2uf depending on the inverter output.

Are you sure user jcbx6 at the waterfuel1978 group is saying his Volvo is working on water at this time?

@capacitor70 my congratulations :D to you in demonstrating that it is truly possible to get a ICE to run on water ;)

Keep up this important research :) we will find the way to get this done one way or another.

Luc


Hi Gang,

Remember, a  inverter rectified via a 1/2 wave 110/220 V Peak output pulse has several amps of capacity @ the inverters output per cycle of output.  I'm sure it would work without the cap.......apples and oranges here.  Cap just averages/stores energy and provides more power to the spark during the burst of plasma.  Again, a lamp in series sure would help prevent overcurrent in the inverter from the plasma flow, a medieval current limiter!  A spark coil with a second winding to provide a high current AC 130 V pulse in phase with the HV output would be sort of neat!  But that's another story.

I thought the kick start motorcycle engine in that video was a 2 cycle?????

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 05:30:31 PM
I think EV Gray used a circuit almost identical to the one posted, my understanding was that a HV source was used to produce a plasma arc across two conductors, this plasma would then conduct a large 12v current source(batteries) across the conductors. Plasma is a perfect conductor thus the HV arc was used as a means to switch a large current source on and off much like ionization does in radio tubes. Because the HV arc controls the duration time of the large current source the discharge time can be made extremely small. As well there must be two currents flowing in the conducting space, one high voltage/low amps the other low voltage/high amps which is interesting in itself. This small duration high energy impulse between the conductors was said to produce "radiant" effects that EV Gray used to power an electric motor and recharge his batteries. There is the possibility this is a very "natural" process, when we consider lightning we have always thought that the discharge is a high voltage/high current discharge. But maybe the high voltage discharge in lightning is nothing more than a conducting path for the naturally occurring potential gradient (100v/m)found in earths atmosphere--the current source.
Very interesting stuff  ;D

Hi allcanadian, thanks for looking at this topic. I do believe there maybe more that just water explosions done with this circuit and your knowledge and experience would be an asset to the development of this.

At everyone:
I am re-posting the video's that I deleted on youtube 5 days ago since many have asked to see them. The interesting thing is you would think that the spark plug would be hot after this test but it is only about body temperature. The light looks very much like the Sun and is full of UV, just look at the flashes on the wood table the spark plug is on.

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVs_UJ-XRU

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 06:23:56 PM
Here is the 2nd video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba_pwxh-czc  Sorry about the quality! I'm working on trying to fix that

To achieve this kind of spark the capacitor is 3.3uf and the voltage to the circuit is about 150 volts. I tried to measure the current but I think none of my meters are giving reliable readings. The meter that worked best was my new analogue - digital and on the 10 amp scale it was showing an average of about 200ma or less.

I used my circuit below and one side of a DPDT relay trigered by a transistor which is switched  by my signal generator.

At everyone, my eyes have somewhat been affected by this but it's not so bad. But please be more cautious than me and get some heavy UV protected Sun glasses if you get to this point.

Added: I'm out for the day to make some money :P so I won't be available till late tonight

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 04, 2008, 06:35:14 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 06:50:32 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated and still produce plasma.

This needs to be thought through..... I agree with Ossie.... there remains much thinking and circuit experimentation to be done.
You never know...... until you find out!

Hi goldenequity, thanks for pointing this out. I'm in a hurry to go to work and will take more time to look at this later. I would like everyone's input of this video demonstration.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 04, 2008, 08:13:02 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?


His circuit diagram shows that it is using the HV spark from the coil and the capacitors LV at the same time. It does work, did it several times before I finished off my few diodes.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 04, 2008, 08:40:00 PM
So.... is that spark on spark?
or spark on field?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 04, 2008, 09:13:15 PM
Hi vlpe,

My tests have shown that you need at least 90-100 volts minimum to cause a plasma discharge across the ignition spark in a spark plug set for a standard gap. An inverter raises 12 volts to 110 or 240 volts for this purpose. Many other methods and DC power supplies can be used for this purpose. But considering the relatively cheap price of inverters these days, it is quite convienient to use one. As long as you know what your doing and don't blow it up...

Regards,

Ossie


@Ossie & all. I'm still waiting for my inverter but decided to experiement with my spare Toro lawnmower today. I used the Ossie circuit with 16 diodes in series. In place of the inverter I used my trusty EICO lab bench hv power supply. My cap was rated at 350 volts so I set the supply to about 275. I found out the hard way that the magneto on the Toro puts out negative pulses, not positive like I expected. This was confusing until I verified it with a Simpson 260 meter. 
 The motor running on gasoline acts a bit different with the plasma turned on. I sprayed water into the intake and clamped the fuel hose, the motor did finally come to a stop. I then noticed the power supply was not keeping up with the discharges (in current limit). I posted this so you are all aware that the pulse polarity from an ignition system is not always positive. When my inverter arrives I will at least be aware of how the connections must be made for the negative magneto.
 If you are having any trouble understanding basic ignition/electrical sytems here is a primer written by Toro that is very good and worth a look. www.age.psu.edu/tae/902/Electrical/Electrical%20Systems%20Toro.pdf

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gettinwet on July 04, 2008, 09:22:39 PM
I figure I have lurked long enough. I can not add much at this point since I know nothing of electronics. But when focus is moved to the engines I will be much more suited to participate in discussions. I have a 1967 Pontiac 400 rebuilt sitting on an engine stand awaiting. 


I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.

I remember reading in a PDF that S1r used 2 sizes larger carb jets.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 04, 2008, 09:38:21 PM
So.... is that spark on spark?
or spark on field?

I don't know what is happing, right now I'm leaning towards the video explanation. I got a big white/blue flash and bang with no water! About the same as I was getting before on the old circuit with water, except it had some orange. Didn't get to try with water before the diodes failed.

Can anyone else try with water?

I was using a 120uf 200V cap.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 04, 2008, 10:26:13 PM
Hi everyone,

Just a comment on my video.

First, look at Luc's diagram. The relay connects the bridge to charge the cap, then it disconnects the relay and connects cap to coil.

In my diagram, I show the cap/bridge constantly connected but only a switch to discharge the cap coil, while it is connected to the bridge (not shown)...just showing a cap, but implied that obviously it is charged from somewhere.

Here is the difference between both our diagrams at least when it comes to WHAT IS HAPPENING? The answer is NOTHING.

Here is why: The HV output leaving the ignition coil is moving towards ground through a lower voltage positive potential. It can be the cap directly, it can be a bridge...doesn't matter. The HV output of the coil moves towards ground and the easiest path is towards that low voltage potential that is connected back to ground.

Have to forget about positive voltage moves to negative. Positive voltage will move to positive voltage if it is less voltage and there is a common ground. A POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE is all that is needed and polarity is irrelevant...again...as long as there is a common ground. Go search Bedini's splitting the positive diagrams.

Anyway, the voltage potential is a GAS...that is NOT an analogy...these circuits are GAS VALVES...the Heaviside flow over the wire IS an "electric" aetheric gas that flows over the wire.

This is what happens, you dump a cap impulse into the coil, windings multiply the voltage obviously but there is also time compression there. The high gas pressure leaving HV output moves to the diode seaking ground through low voltage potential. The diodes block this off and all that gas pressure slams hard against a wall...VERY HARD! You are getting a WATER HAMMER effect literally with the gas...where can that go? Only path to ground then is towards the plug.

Please understand that the gas analogies are really not analogies and are literally what you are doing with the gas pressure.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 04, 2008, 10:38:46 PM
Can someone make some sort of slideshoweque explanation. Showing the cricuit part by part, each time adding a part and explaining what the purpose of it is and how it affects it (for example choosing a bigger or smaller cap). I have a bit of hard time understanding this since I have basic electricity knowledge. Please explain it as if you're trying to explain it to a 12 year old  :P.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: VenomTT on July 04, 2008, 10:54:32 PM
HI:

I need some advice. I know some of you don't recommend to try it on an engine at first. I know nothing about electronics but I know a little about mechanics. So if You could help me to avoid a blowing inverter. I'll buy a 400Watts inverter tomorrow.

Do you think Gotoluc diagram with some modification like this could work on a one cylinder 4 stroke aluminum head?
If I need to isolate the engine I think I can do it. But, if You Who Do Know about electronics could give me and advice, it would be great.

VenomTT

Regards,
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?



goldenequity

As I see it  Aaron was not talking about  separating  the  voltages .
He talked about it  creating a radiant  event  .........The  high and low voltages  are accepted as " normal "  electronic  effects  .......... Aaron    is saying that in  addition to this   it creates a radiant  event .     This is NOT  accepted by  " normal " electron theory     ............. Tesla did alot with radiant  energy ....  quite a few others  made some progress too .
NONE of them  have   had  much PUBLIC sucess because    they are outside of   accepted  theory




In the  video  he said  Luc  has made a  mini Grey tube .........not  quite  true ....... he may have made the heart  of the tube .............the hard part ......he didn't  add the collector plates   . 

The  real Grey tube  was  the power source  for a 80 HP  electric  motor .........  judging  from  pictures it was less than a foot long  and  less than 5 in  high .

gary

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 11:36:01 PM
Useing my setup ..  ;D

Its super bright!!! And shoots out about a little over 1/2"!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 05, 2008, 01:14:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

Also, I have this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ADb91lJvI
I'm not showing the electroradiant event in this vid...just high frequency impules.

Point is, I do understand the collector plates as I have actually built it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 05, 2008, 01:21:55 AM
@qiman/Aaron
Quote
qiman quote:"There are some very specific ways to design the circuit so that worrying about the isolation is not even an issue. There are extra benefits to this that I will discuss later."

Just the concept of arcing Hi positive to Lo positive (and not to ground) to achieve plasma should have all circuit designers attention.
Is this why you are saying "isolation" is not even an issue?
Can we chat about the "extra benefits"? It's time..... the world hangs by a thread.... we need to work together.
Thanks ahead for sharing Aaron.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 05, 2008, 01:44:13 AM
Gary,

"In the  video  he said  Luc  has made a  mini Grey tube .........not  quite  true  "

I talked about the electroradiant event that happens in the tube. Please watch your
analysis of what I do and please don't change what I say or take what I say out
of context as you have done. What I have said IS quite true.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 01:50:43 AM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?


Hi goldenequity,

The circuit presented in the video is simply a basic embodiment of what the strobe only drive circuit does. You can view S1 in the video circuit as the xenon tube. But regardless, the beauty of such a circuit is that it allows the same and single low voltage source to created both the HV pulse as well as the LV current to create the powerfull plasma discharge. Although I think this will have great application for other forms of devices as well as in other areas of research, the reasons I am focussing on a LV current driver circuit is because I feel that this is what will be the best way to be able to adapt existing engines to run on water only as existing engines already have the HV part of the circuit working in their ignition systems.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 02:04:17 AM
I don't know what is happing, right now I'm leaning towards the video explanation. I got a big white/blue flash and bang with no water! About the same as I was getting before on the old circuit with water, except it had some orange. Didn't get to try with water before the diodes failed.

Can anyone else try with water?

I was using a 120uf 200V cap.

Regards, Larry

Hi LarryC,

One thing I would like to point out with the discharge and the reaction with water present is that, as Luc has told us of previously, even moisture in the air can increase the explosiveness of the discharge. Spraying water on your spark gap certainly increases the explosiveness a great deal but if you don't, humidity of the air and any natural condensate of moisture on your electrodes or spark plug will increase the power of the discharge. To alter this, simply use a hair dryer or heat gun and completely dry your electrodes and/or spark plug. Then you will find that the exlosiveness of the discharge will be greatly reduced to the point of being non existent and it will appear as a normal high energy spark discharge, relative to the value of your capacitor of course. This is also a good way to look at both extremes of having water present in the discharge and no water, or very little water present and noting the difference in the discharge. I think you will find it quite significant and unexpected.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 05, 2008, 02:13:20 AM
@Group
Please pardon my intrusion, but I have missed a valuable bit of information and hope someone will point me in the right direction (without sarcasm).

Where is the information on why one needs atm*x versus atm=1 to observe the effect of the plasma on vapor? Has no one tried something as simple as I have?

I may be all wrong, but is the basis of the research on a few people that have stated they have engines running or is it based on the ability of blowing up a simple plastic bottle containing some vapor and a plug?

Please, I do want to explore this, but as so many say about my work, they want supporting information.

Thanks Much....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 05, 2008, 02:27:48 AM
I put the inverter on a seperate battery and it DIDN'T blow up!!   ;D But now when I arc the plug a few times pretty fast the display on the inverter reads SC for short circuit. Maybe I just need to get a different brand of inverter.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 05, 2008, 02:42:48 AM
Bumfuzzled - open up the gap on your plug.  And check that your capactor isn't short circuited.  You are drawing far too much current.  The object of this exercise is to use the minimum voltage to create the spark, and the minimum current to explode the water.  Power = Volts x Amps - and if you are using too much power, you will never achieve overunity. 

Inserting a light bulb, or a high wattage low ohms resistor (around 2 ohms) might also give you some current limiting - but it's also a waste of energy.  See if you can charge your capacitor to 110V without blowing up your inverter.  Then, use the capacitor energy to fire your plug. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 02:52:30 AM
Gary,

"In the  video  he said  Luc  has made a  mini Grey tube .........not  quite  true  "

I talked about the electroradiant event that happens in the tube. Please watch your
analysis of what I do and please don't change what I say or take what I say out
of context as you have done. What I have said IS quite true.



I  don't think   I  took  anything out of  context ..........   I  believe that what I said  is true and  accurate .

Perhaps   if you  want to  say someone  made  an  electroradiant  event  you  might  make some attempt  to   explain that to all the people that   have not  spent  half their  lives studying these kinds of things . 

I  do  agree that it is very  likely a radiant  event ........ but it is not   a Gray  tube ........at least not yet .


gary


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 05, 2008, 02:56:18 AM
@Group
Please pardon my intrusion, but I have missed a valuable bit of information and hope someone will point me in the right direction (without sarcasm).

Where is the information on why one needs atm*x versus atm=1 to observe the effect of the plasma on vapor? Has no one tried something as simple as I have?

I may be all wrong, but is the basis of the research on a few people that have stated they have engines running or is it based on the ability of blowing up a simple plastic bottle containing some vapor and a plug?

Please, I do want to explore this, but as so many say about my work, they want supporting information.

Thanks Much....

No sarcasm, but ... WTF is "atm*x versus atm=1"?  Atmospheric Pressure? Please don't assume that everyone here has followed all your posts and knows what you are talking about ....

I'm seeking answers too - and my big unanswered questions are:

Why vapour?  If the energy comes from the latent heat of liquid water, then why not use water - and get the spark to turn the water into vapour, liberating the most energy?

Why compression?  That's applying existing ICE ideas to something that may not behave anything like an ICE.  AFAIK, lightening bolts in a storm cloud are in localised low pressure zones ... a depression weather event.

Why air?  Hydrocarbon fuels require oxygen, but water already contains oxygen.  And maybe the effect we want isn't the high temp disassociation of hydrogen & oxygen anyway (that would appear to require too much power input)? 

So is the ideal process Anaerobic?

I'm not wanting to muddy the waters - I really want to clarify the very essence of the overunity principle that is being tested here.  There will be many versions of working designs - but we need to understand the heart of the working principle ... there have been many false leads so far.

For example - can we safely consider that "special inverters" was a mistake/red-herring/mis-direction?

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 03:04:18 AM
I put the inverter on a seperate battery and it DIDN'T blow up!!   ;D But now when I arc the plug a few times pretty fast the display on the inverter reads SC for short circuit. Maybe I just need to get a different brand of inverter.



Hi bumfuzzled,

As Ben suggested, connect a 110/240V household light globe directly in series with the output of your inverter which is also what appears to be shown in the capacitor70 video. I would use about a 100W light globe which should work as a simple resistive current regulator for your discharge circuit.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 05, 2008, 03:18:20 AM
No sarcasm, but ... WTF is "atm*x versus atm=1"?  Atmospheric Pressure? Please don't assume that everyone here has followed all your posts and knows what you are talking about ....

I'm seeking answers too - and my big unanswered questions are:

Why vapour?  If the energy comes from the latent heat of liquid water, then why not use water - and get the spark to turn the water into vapour, liberating the most energy?

Why compression?  That's applying existing ICE ideas to something that may not behave anything like an ICE.  AFAIK, lightening bolts in a storm cloud are in localised low pressure zones ... a depression weather event.

Why air?  Hydrocarbon fuels require oxygen, but water already contains oxygen.  And maybe the effect we want isn't the high temp disassociation of hydrogen & oxygen anyway (that would appear to require too much power input)? 

So is the ideal process Anaerobic?

I'm not wanting to muddy the waters - I really want to clarify the very essence of the overunity principle that is being tested here.  There will be many versions of working designs - but we need to understand the heart of the working principle ... there have been many false leads so far.

For example - can we safely consider that "special inverters" was a mistake/red-herring/mis-direction?


Thanks for the succinct response. I am now  assured its all under control and I will be of no help.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 03:30:48 AM


Why vapour?  If the energy comes from the latent heat of liquid water, then why not use water - and get the spark to turn the water into vapour, liberating the most energy?


Quote

In my opinion   vapor is the easy road .
If a motor  can be shown to run a little by dripping  water into the  intake  .......then    uncontroled  water into the intake  is  the right way to go .      .....................................

Personally  I don't think  there is  much  way to  control  the  process using  mist  .
Unless   control  can be found by manipulaing the  LV  current .
A motor  in a car  needs a high  degree of  control .


I think   that  injecting water  at the plug .........or in the plug    is the way  to  go.............
Making  the  first injector  plugs   will not  be   quick or easy .
I don't have the money to even start  the  process  right now



Quote


Why compression?  That's applying existing ICE ideas to something that may not behave anything like an ICE.  AFAIK, lightening bolts in a storm cloud are in localised low pressure zones ... a depression weather event.


I think that  compression   should work the same   with  a water motor .........   A  spark  in  a vacume  makes no   noise ...and can do no work .    It  only radiates  heat and light .
The  more  pressure   in the  cylinder  the more  work can  be done .


Quote


Why air?  Hydrocarbon fuels require oxygen, but water already contains oxygen.  And maybe the effect we want isn't the high temp disassociation of hydrogen & oxygen anyway (that would appear to require too much power input)? 

So is the ideal process Anaerobic?


I don't think that this process really needs  air ...........but it is kind of hard to get rid of .
and  I don't think it  is  hurting anything .






gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 05, 2008, 03:56:08 AM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.

That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 04:08:33 AM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.

That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.

Hi send_to_nice,

I have read your posts. But I don't know if you have read all of my posts on here though from the beginning.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 04:20:48 AM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.


Does a spark imply ......... 
Are you  trying to figure  out  what laws of physics  this falls under ?
This  thread is an  offshoot  of  a thread  for  attempting  a replication  the  S1r9  car

We  started  with the information we had .......and have been  trying  to move on from there .

Quote
That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.

If you  have  some  ideas that may  help with this  project  please  state them .........  If  your ideas end up  evolving into a different  project ...........they  you should probably start a new thread for  your project .

I  am  lookiing for  energy freedom ......  if your  ideas  lead  in the direction  of  practical energy in an ariea  that i can understand ..........then I am with you . 


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 04:25:15 AM
Hi all,

capacitor70 has an earlier video on youtube of his demonstration of the difference when water is sprayed onto a park plug connected to an approprate LV current discharge circuit. It is very well edited and clear as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBkqNc0GrQ

I commend him on his efforts. He is the same person with the working motorcylce engine video that appears to to run for short periods on this principle with only water being fed into the carburator. Again, the video is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 05, 2008, 07:06:42 AM
Just a quick question,
What happened to all of the posts by capacitor70 and his attempt to get the water delivery to his scooter engine solved??   Deleted??
 ???
HHONOW
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 05, 2008, 07:22:33 AM
@Group
Please pardon my intrusion, but I have missed a valuable bit of information and hope someone will point me in the right direction (without sarcasm).

Where is the information on why one needs atm*x versus atm=1 to observe the effect of the plasma on vapor? Has no one tried something as simple as I have?

I may be all wrong, but is the basis of the research on a few people that have stated they have engines running or is it based on the ability of blowing up a simple plastic bottle containing some vapor and a plug?

Please, I do want to explore this, but as so many say about my work, they want supporting information.

Thanks Much....

Dr Stiffler,
Perhaps if you could elborate a bit on your equation, maybe a few of us here may be able to help out.....in some small way.
HHONOW ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2008, 07:38:13 AM
Just a quick question,
What happened to all of the posts by capacitor70 and his attempt to get the water delivery to his scooter engine solved??   Deleted??
 ???
HHONOW

Hi livingwaters08, can you tell us which posts by capacitor70 got deleted in this topic ?...If you are talking about another topic then why are you asking about that here?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 05, 2008, 07:44:41 AM
I just came across this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYGgMuFZUs&NR=1

 It does not show the coil but it shows a wire attached the spark plug base and one to a ground of the engine.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 05, 2008, 08:04:11 AM
Hi livingwaters08, can you tell us which posts by capacitor70 got deleted in this topic ?...If you are talking about another topic then why are you asking about that here?

Luc

Luc, The posts were here this afternoon, on this thread.  Now they are gone.  I was just asking if they have been moved or deleted??
The discussion involved important information regarding fuel delivery to his recent achievement of running a scooter engine on water.
He also posted his circuit diagram, which I know is not the focus here.  I just would like to know where the posts ended up??
Thanks for your reply.


HHONOW
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2008, 12:22:17 PM
Luc, The posts were here this afternoon, on this thread.  Now they are gone.  I was just asking if they have been moved or deleted??
The discussion involved important information regarding fuel delivery to his recent achievement of running a scooter engine on water.
He also posted his circuit diagram, which I know is not the focus here.  I just would like to know where the posts ended up??
Thanks for your reply.


HHONOW

Hi,
I did not delete anything.

Luc did you delete it, as you are the moderator of this thread ?
What was it about ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 05, 2008, 01:38:36 PM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.

That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.
I read and agree.

Without putting this into en engine or possibly some other test (though really only an engine of some description will cause the energy revolution we are seeking) this is all just a waste of time.

How do you know that the best looking or least energy using sparks will be the best for an engine?

The subject of this thread is "URGENT!  WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE"

Not 'Noisey water arcs circuit refinement for experimenters'

It should be about using water as fuel, read Luc's first post if you are at all unclear on this issue.
And as such it must be put to the application of generating power, more than is being put in.

I couldn't help but think the other night how this could be used to create rocket engines that would be easy to make as they would not get hot and only require water.
You could even look at a patent by T.T Brown on how to turns kintetic energy in a gas into electricity, or use it to compress air.
But wait, there is a far far more straightforward way to use this and it is the perfect time since everyone is grumbling about fuel prices, it is to use an ICE as S1r did requiring only relatively minor modification in many cases it seems.

It is clearly the aim of Luc (unless he states otherwise but from his first post I can't believe he would) and this thread (and most people reading) to make ICE's that run on water.
And as such a strong focused effort should be made to do this and document it right.

So for that first we need info to find out what type of engines might be best suited.
And any modification that must be made to get an engine running.

And then once there is at least one (but preferably several simultaneously) fully documented conversions then if WWIII doesn't start or aliens don't invade oil is dead.
It seems we are a heart beat away (providing S1r9a9m9 and Meyer are right) and all that is needed is a focused effort.

So how about it?  Let's organize some conversions.
We need technical skills, engines, money and people to do the work.  Most everyone reading this could help in some way.
So if you want to change the world then please reply with what you are willing to put in either to the list or to me and I will post them all replies on one post.
Can you donate an engine?  Technical skills (especially car related, in person or over the internet)? Money? Can you supply the electronics? (state where you are too, hopefully we can assemble teams)

I figure there are far more people here who can do half the job, and so on or off list it is an issue of recruiting more people.
So far there seems to be only Capacitor70 and I guess Supergod who have got all the parts together to do a motor test, if everyone reading this decided to make a stand and put in what they can we could probably deliver a fatal blow to big oil before the middle of the month, think about that!

Do you know the number one reason Free Energy if not out there yet? It is because it is not supported by a large group working together as one, but by a random collection of lone experimenters who are unlikely to get anywhere without the ability to pull together. (admittedly the enigmatic nature of the aether is also a barrier)

So anyone who can't fund a company size effort will fail, we must become a company, a team, we must use our skill and resources as one.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 05, 2008, 01:55:25 PM
I will be testing on an 11 HP Briggs motor in th next few hours. I've got the carb soaking in cleaner, it was pretty gunked up. Soon as I get it cleaned out I'll run it on gas to make sure the carb is good to go then I'll be switching over to water to see what happens. I'll adjust the timing to see if it makes a difference. I wish I had a jet kit for the carb to see if bigger or smaller jets make a difference.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 05, 2008, 02:02:12 PM
I will be testing on an 11 HP Briggs motor in th next few hours. I've got the carb soaking in cleaner, it was pretty gunked up. Soon as I get it cleaned out I'll run it on gas to make sure the carb is good to go then I'll be switching over to water to see what happens. I'll adjust the timing to see if it makes a difference. I wish I had a jet kit for the carb to see if bigger or smaller jets make a difference.

You mean you have the effect working after all those dead inverters?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 05, 2008, 02:15:26 PM
You mean you have the effect working after all those dead inverters?

I've only blown up 2 and Kmart is pretty good about exchanging them for another one.  ;D I've had it working for several days now with mains power. I isolated the inverter with it's own battery yesterday and it works fine now. I'll have to put a light bulb in series to keep from short circuiting the inverter.

The only way to keep from blowing up stuff is either to be an electronics expert (which I'm definitely not) or sit on yer hind end and do nothing. And I'll bet these guys on here that know electronics still blow up stuff from time to time.  ;) 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Magnethos on July 05, 2008, 02:15:56 PM
I haven?t seen the entire experiment and I have only a few idea about what are you trying to do. I?m spanish, but I will try to understand all that you say in your video (spoken english is a little difficult to me). But I must to say you that you have tried another method and that is fabulous. I?m very bored seeing every day the same experiments with classical electrolysis systems (using the electrodes). You have tried another method and that is very good. I will see what you are trying to do and I will write my opinion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 05, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
@ xbox hacker
You say the tests work for you without the body of the plug connected to anything? Will it work if the body is connected to the negative on the bridge rectifier like in the diagrams?

My hope is that the system will work on your ICE if the negative of your bridge is connected to your engine block.


@ everyone
Haven't done any tests yet, but hope to have something to report soon.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: springfield on July 05, 2008, 02:51:36 PM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 05, 2008, 03:10:40 PM
I have uploaded a diagram to show what I have in mind for my test setup. I know it's not very detailed. Please tell me if this looks like a safe and plausible configuration to start with.
(http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/thumbs/small/1539116_ysw7l/plasma-plug-setup1.jpg) (http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/view/full/1539116_ysw7l)

I would prefer to do my initial testing using house current connected to the switch instead of from an inverter from a battery. I figure, no sense in using a battery when I have an outlet and my device isn't mobile enough to warrant using a battery, and no sense in taking the risk of breaking my inverter.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 05, 2008, 03:21:29 PM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

As best as I understand it:

The spark plug is ionizing the space in it's gap which creates an electric connection. It's the same process that spark plugs already use, and is the same process that happens before lightning strikes. Once the connection is made though, we are doing what lighting does, which is allow high current to flow through that connection.

The idea seems to be that we can turn water into plasma with less energy than we get out of igniting it. Plasma being the state where each atom is separate (so water plasma is monatomic H and monatomic O), and so we say that we have a field of charged particles.

[edit]
on this page http://www.geocities.com/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html (http://www.geocities.com/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html), the author states that investigators in the area water arc explosions for rock fragmentation in mining, have noticed the process seems to be 156% efficient.
[/edit]
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2008, 03:49:50 PM
Luc, The posts were here this afternoon, on this thread.  Now they are gone.  I was just asking if they have been moved or deleted??
The discussion involved important information regarding fuel delivery to his recent achievement of running a scooter engine on water.
He also posted his circuit diagram, which I know is not the focus here.  I just would like to know where the posts ended up??
Thanks for your reply.
HHONOW

Hi livingwaters08, I did not delete any posts by capacitor70 in this topic. If I did I would of mention that in the reply to you. Also please not that if I delete a post I can only delete the content! so the post would still be there just empty. Can you show me an empty post by capacitor70?

Luc

Hi,
I did not delete anything.

Luc did you delete it, as you are the moderator of this thread ?
What was it about ?

No deleting of any posts by capacitor70 have been done by me. I have no idea what it was about since I was out most of yesterday afternoon and evening and did not have access. Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 05, 2008, 04:00:46 PM
LUC somebody is confused chris crossing threads [and its not you]
DR STIFFLER I know LUC would love your input please dont be put off by a few that don't understand Chet PS most of us will be trying to grasp this effect and all its potential for quite some time
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 05, 2008, 04:49:45 PM
My set up rev 3.....  ;D

It works as a bench test! draw on inverter is very low!

+ve on the HV fro m the motor is VERY important!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 05:04:22 PM


So how about it?  Let's organize some conversions.
We need technical skills, engines, money and people to do the work.  Most everyone reading this could help in some way.
So if you want to change the world then please reply with what you are willing to put in either to the list or to me and I will post them all replies on one post.
Can you donate an engine?  Technical skills (especially car related, in person or over the internet)? Money? Can you supply the electronics? (state where you are too, hopefully we can assemble teams)
Quote

I don't have money for  this  kind of stuff  at the moment .......but I  did  do my part for today at least   
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html

Quote
So far there seems to be only Capacitor70 and I guess Supergod who have got all the parts together to do a motor test, if everyone reading this decided to make a stand and put in what they can we could probably deliver a fatal blow to big oil before the middle of the month, think about that!


I think   the middle of the  month is   quicker than is practical ............However ........from what I understand    it is  mostly  speculators  driving up fuel  prices at the moment .   
If   we make  alot of progress quickly   and word gets out ......  the  speculation  market  will  dry up in minutes  ......... Then  the  market  will  return to supply and demand 

gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2008, 05:12:40 PM
My set up rev 3.....  ;D

It works! draw on inverter is very low!

+ve on the HV fro m the motor is VERY important!

Great to hear this.
Could you please try to show a youtube video of your running motor ?

How fast does it run ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2008, 05:18:05 PM
I have uploaded a diagram to show what I have in mind for my test setup. I know it's not very detailed. Please tell me if this looks like a safe and plausible configuration to start with.
(http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/thumbs/small/1539116_ysw7l/plasma-plug-setup1.jpg) (http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/view/full/1539116_ysw7l)

I would prefer to do my initial testing using house current connected to the switch instead of from an inverter from a battery. I figure, no sense in using a battery when I have an outlet and my device isn't mobile enough to warrant using a battery, and no sense in taking the risk of breaking my inverter.

Please put a 40 Watts incandescent bulb before the greatz bridge into the
circuit to reduce the load current, otherwise it could easily
your components.

Be cautious, as when you touch just ONE wire
only, you will get an electric shock, cause you have no isolation-transfomer between your house outlet and
your circuit...!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 05:23:52 PM
I have uploaded a diagram to show what I have in mind for my test setup. I know it's not very detailed. Please tell me if this looks like a safe and plausible configuration to start with.
(http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/thumbs/small/1539116_ysw7l/plasma-plug-setup1.jpg) (http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/view/full/1539116_ysw7l)

I would prefer to do my initial testing using house current connected to the switch instead of from an inverter from a battery. I figure, no sense in using a battery when I have an outlet and my device isn't mobile enough to warrant using a battery, and no sense in taking the risk of breaking my inverter.

Wavez

I think you  are missing a few things

there is a  diagram  by Luc a  little  ways back

I don't  see  a switch  or anything on your diagram

I also don't  see  any  diodes protecting  your   diode  bridge from the HV

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 05, 2008, 05:34:40 PM
Stefan:
I am so sorry, i didnt explain my self better...it works on the bench with a plug in open air, not a running motor...lol

I still have a big problem , when i hook a wire to the body of the plug and the motor, i get NO spark at all!!!!! The only thing that i can think of is that my HV is a negitave ve. And i need positive ve......
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: BEP on July 05, 2008, 06:10:45 PM
@Xbox

Just an FYI:

When hitting a conductive mass with an HV charge consider that mass(the engine) a very large tank circuit. There will be inductive and capacitive reactance to charge. It is very likely the engine is simply absorbing the charge - especially if it is a stream of pulses.
If you get to the point where you are testing with an engine it should probably be a very small one and well insulated from everything including the Earth.

Just a thought. I haven't applied this type of work to and ICE but I do know my sparks  ;)

I find the work here very interesting. If and when I jump in it'll be with a model airplane engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: winner on July 05, 2008, 06:19:56 PM
Hi LarryC,

One thing I would like to point out with the discharge and the reaction with water present is that, as Luc has told us of previously, even moisture in the air can increase the explosiveness of the discharge. Spraying water on your spark gap certainly increases the explosiveness a great deal but if you don't, humidity of the air and any natural condensate of moisture on your electrodes or spark plug will increase the power of the discharge. To alter this, simply use a hair dryer or heat gun and completely dry your electrodes and/or spark plug... Regards, Ossie

@ Ossie or anyone:

In an existing ICE, do you see that adding a humidifier and air warmer (for winter operation) to the air intake would be a natural part of a conversion kit for existing engines? I know very little about automobile engines, but it seems to me this is a much simpler way to go than delivering water injection to each spark plug. I remember reading that already a certain amount of water exists in ICE piston chambers; is rust really all that much of a new concern?

Another idea to consider (or throw out if it adds unnecessary complicaton!): If we have another AC signal at the spark plug contacts, of appropriate level and frequency (14-20 kHz?), which is known to contribute toward water dissociation, would this bolster the effect?

I resonate with the various pleas here to focus on Gotoluc's aim of converting existing auto engines to water fuel. Toward this goal, I do also see the need for an organized "divide and conquer" plan where all interested participants can contribute their talents, whatever they may be, toward a universal solution.

Eventually, I see that we will devise something of a conversion kit concept, and then go about constructing specific kits for various cars as necessary.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 05, 2008, 06:38:48 PM
@springfield
Quote
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?
1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.
So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike
Now there is a good question ;)  A very wise person I know once said " you cannot build what you do not understand" and I believe this to be true --- so maybe we should explore the mechanism involved in-depth.
Here is what we know-----
- a high tension arc across a gap has little or no effect on water vapor
- a high current flow cannot jump the gap on it's own
- a high tension arc can act as a "conductor" and conduct large current flows across a spark gap
- an electric current can disassociate water into H2 and O2, if the gasses should recombine the same energy required to seperate them will be released.

Here is what has not been mentioned-----
-Water is a condition applied within the confines of a given space, water vapor is water that has it's surface tension released thus energy has been added to it.
-Water vapor is a condition applied within the confines of a given space, water vapor is not liquid water any more than an apple chopped up into a fine powder could be considered an apple. The qualities and properties change drastically, we enter the realm of nano-technology where many small things seperated act very differently than if they were joined together.
-Matter and space are "conditions" dictated by pressure and potential difference, conditions can be changed.

In this device the conditions have changed  ;) A large current flow is forced to jump into an spark gap and apply it's energy to a water vapor already in a high energy state. What you have not considered is the one thing that makes this process work ----- Duration of the applied energy(Time). Matter will absorb energy until it exceeds its boundaries at which point it must "radiate" the energy to maintain its condition or change its condition. The capacitive discharge in the spark gap because it has a very short duration could amount to thousands of KW but only for a small period of time. As Nicola Tesla once said ---" I can charge a capacitor at 200Hp and discharge it at 10,000Hp or 1,000,000Hp"--- only the duration of energy flow has changed. I do not believe there is any "electrolysis" in the reaction in the spark gap,maybe this is an electrostatic event.
I had decided not to mention this but I think it will help you in more ways than you can imagine ;)
Consider a single rock dropped in a pond of water, the rock entering the water is a singular event yet it produces waves in the water. We could say the properties of the waves are determined by the conditions present, that is the velocity of the rock and the density of the water.The water does not radiate outward from the disturbance, energy radiates outward using the water as the means for propogation. Following this line of though we could also say a singular impulsive discharge could produce waves in the "media" of any wavelength but in this case the duration(rate of change) and magnitude of the energy input can determine the properties of the energy and its effects in matter. Your plasma arc discharge produces UV radiation ie... energy radiating outward from a single point--radiant energy, but this is not the only thing it can do.
Best of luck
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: masta on July 05, 2008, 06:42:57 PM
Heloes everyone,

and thank you all for taking apart of this very important project.
Wanted to say that i do not want to see anyone using word "waste" while contributing or buying stuff to make this thing work, i think some still dont get how big it is, when you all get it going :)

was suprised also that capacitor had removed his posts with success on the scooter engine, here's his video tho, is still up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4 - capacitor70 scooter engine video

As myself, i think im good enough tinkerer when stuff needs building, but my knowledge in electornics and ICE is far too low to be any big use, still your carborator talk etc reminded me a video i was looking the other day about hydrogen fed ICE, and removed carborator.

Did a search on youtube and found it, stuff i wanted to show starts at about 4:00 into the video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RMj14tPiIww - hydrogen fed 5hp motor.

He's using stainless steel tube feeding hydrogen on top of the intake valve, i dont know how carborator works and spreads water, but i was thinking maybe some good "sprinkler" that makes fine mist under some pressure in front of the intake.. also under an angle for excess water to flow away.. hope you get what im thinking.
Anyway, the hydrogen solution uses plain vacuum generated by the piston to suck in enough gas for next ignition, would misty water be gaseous enough and would this provide enough amount for it for next explosion, i dont know, just throwing in an idea for you guys, ignore it if its unusable.

made the "Ossielator" too, as its easy to make :P tho i cant see it react to water, too weak mby, dont know.
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/8251/ossielatorwg7.jpg)

good luck guys, moar results less sleeps  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: McGiver30 on July 05, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
XBOX Hacker, I Believe your missing a rectifier right after your inverter in your diagram. can't see how else it would actually be a true dc circuit as you discribe. I am not an expert though.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 05, 2008, 07:19:13 PM
Maybe as a suggestion, but could this work inside a chainsaw?. Since they're not that big and easy to fiddle with it might be a good experiment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2008, 07:45:18 PM
Hi everyone,

Aaron has started a topic at the Energetic Forum of what we are doing here and he is doing a great job sharing our findings.

Here is the link to the topic: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

I encourage this to be shared to as many forums as possible, so if you know of other forums please share it there.

Sharing is the key to change.

I'm off to the garage to start building an engine test setup.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 05, 2008, 09:14:57 PM
A very good product for atomizing the water for test purposes would be a healthcare "nebulizer" which is used by people with asthma and COPD (emphysema). They use AC wall power, compress air and run it through flexible tubing to a small container that holds a water or a liquid medicine; atomizing it into a "fog" and shooting it out in a stream (that can go pretty far, maybe 1 meter or a little more, if you don't use the usual breathing mouthpiece that comes with it). It creates a very fine mist. The water in the container will usually last about 7 to 10 minutes between refills.

They start at about $40 and can be gotten from many drug stores /apothecaries or online. The disposable tubing and small container (consumable items) that actually do the atomizing may be all that is really needed; for only about $6.00 US... If you supply the compressed air yourself.

...But don't steal Grandpa's if he needs it, lol ;)
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 05, 2008, 09:22:14 PM
Hi,
I sent an request for this to capacitor 70, but in case I don't get a reply, can anyone confirm the circuit he is using or even better, the schematic?
Re. 2 stroke ICE's (Chainsaws) etc.
Should be OK if you Direct inject above the piston during compression stroke not easy to do. However, I am starting to think that Injection is the way forward for 4 stroke, but I appreciate the usual mechanical complexity of modification.

Here is a theoretical Fuel injection idea to help carb. users meter and vaporize water very easily. Remove the float from the float chamber, replace the cover. Run a pipe from the exhaust to a sealed vessel containing water then another pipe from that vessel to the float chamber's fuel inlet . the exhaust pressure pulse should force the water through the main jet to a vapor, into the venturi.
What is nice about this is. The water pressure increases /decreases relative to the exhaust pressure pulse on demand. a starter motor turning the crank could start the process.

Thanks for listening.

D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 05, 2008, 10:15:43 PM
Hello all!
Really impressed with your ideas and progress, and looking to replicate soon and perform as many test as possible.

In the meanwhile I have just an idea to test as soon as I can build the circuit:
As the HV is used to give the bridge to the low current from the inverter... maybe could it be possible to run it direct from the battery??
If you connect the positive battery through a direct wire to the plug with a strong diode pack to avoid reverse from HV the battery will find the road open as soon as the HV sparks and a 12 volt battery can deliver enough power to melt the plug.

It's just an idea that fly over my neck as I was reading, I'm not an expert, but it could help to avoid buying inverters every now and then...

A last question, I believe to have read somewhere that s1r car need to heat to run smootly, on the other hand I noticed some of you told the spark remained cold over long tests, do you know if engines really warm up to normal gas temp?

Excuse if any unconvenience, as you have already discovered my English is far from being perfect (as everything about me ;))
Ri
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 05, 2008, 10:16:15 PM
First time I have posted here.
I have been following since this thread since it first started on this forum.
I have built a circuit based off of the picture diagram at the beginning. I'm currently not using my 400w Black and Decker inverter because I can't get more than about 2 or 3 sparks and something trips internally and it shuts itself off. This happens with everything from a 1 microfarad to 150 microfarad capacitor. I gave up on the inverter for now and went to something I know is sure to work. I'm using 110v AC from a wall socket going through 4 60w and 2 75w light bulbs in parallel to give me 390w AC. Wish I could attach a picture but my wife has the digital camera right now. I run this into an 8 amp full wave bridge rectifier. The negative from the bridge goes to ground on the MSD coil, spark plug(motor) ground, and one side of a 135 microfarad capacitor. The positive side of the bridge connects to the spark plug via 16 1N5407 diodes. The output of the coil is connected to the spark plug also. It looks very much like the picture diagram at the front of this post except  where the SPDT switch is I have fabricated a set of points that are operated by a cam lobe collar locked down by a set screw on the output shaft of a Briggs & Stratton 5HP Horizontal shaft engine. So far I've tried timing settings from 40 degrees before top dead center to 60 degrees after top dead center. I haven't been able to get it to run with only water. I can tell you this though- there is no way a normal ignition system would take the amount of water I've run through this engine. It seems to want to try to run on water at low rpm with the throttle valve completely closed.

I have run out of time for now and will be gone for 4 days. Will try again when I get back.

I'd like to mention that there is a big difference I think between the picture diagram and the circuit diagram at the beginning of this post from my point of view. The picture diagram is firing a capacitor THROUGH the coil and the circuit diagram is firing a capacitor ON TOP OF a coil discharge. I think this leaves more to be investigated.

I'd also like to mention that while using this setup the spark plug will fire without being grounded to the circuit. The engine is mounted to wood boards for insulation purposes. I accidentally forget to connect the ground from the circuit to the engine block and the plug still fired. As soon as I touched the motor I got shocked and then figured out I forgot the ground wire. Any explanations on this?

If someone is going to try this be very careful. I don't touch the engine while starting or running it. I turn it over with a 1/3 HP electric motor via a drive belt pulley from a water pump off an old chevy. If you take off the recoil starter and remove the ratchet clutch a water pump pulley will bolt right on with a  fine thread nut. Water pump pulleys are about 6" in diameter. I put a 2" pulley on the electric motor. It turns over great! When the engine starts firing, unplug the electric motor or it pulls down the engine. This way I can turn it over while watching the resistor light bulbs and get an indication of when the plug has cleared itself and starts firing again after being drowned out.

I originally tried turning it over with a 3/4" electric drill but for some reason it caused a full draw on the resistor light bulbs. I guess it was searching for a ground through the drill.

Happy testing everyone!!!!!
God loves you
MIke
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: maxvicd on July 05, 2008, 10:57:58 PM
As the HV is used to give the bridge to the low current from the inverter... maybe could it be possible to run it direct from the battery??
If you connect the positive battery through a direct wire to the plug with a strong diode pack to avoid reverse from HV the battery will find the road open as soon as the HV sparks and a 12 volt battery can deliver enough power to melt the plug.

I thought the same thing a time ago and  first limiting current with one 12V lamp or more in parallel for more current, and if it works replace the lamps with a current limiting transistor.

Max ;).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 01:19:06 AM
I cannot get it to work on the lawnmower. I have the same problem with the test circuit. If I open the LV circuit anywhere then I can get my HV arc. If I don't open the LV circuit I cannot get a HV spark. With the test circuit I had to reverse polarity on the ignition coil to get this to work. I'm sure that's what my problem is on the lawnmower but there is no way to reverse the polarity with a magneto that I know of.

Another thing Ossie told me to check was the polarity of the coil. I did this test with ONLY the HV circuit hooked up. When the diodes are blocking flow from the coil to ground I get no fire, when they are blocking from ground to the coil I get fire. It is this way with the car coil and the lawnmower. Can somebody explain this to me because I thought electricty always flowed from neg to pos but according to that test it is flowing from the coil to ground which would be backwards.

Only thing I know to do is get a lawnmower with points ignition and bypass the magneto and use the points to trigger my car ignition coil so that way I can reverse the polarity on it so it will work. I've yet to have anybody really explain the flow of this circuit so until I understand it then I'm at the mercy of you people that know electricity.

I've tried the string of diodes in every place in the circuit I can think of backwards and forwards and nothing helps.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 06, 2008, 02:27:07 AM
I cannot get it to work on the lawnmower. I have the same problem with the test circuit. If I open the LV circuit anywhere then I can get my HV arc. If I don't open the LV circuit I cannot get a HV spark. With the test circuit I had to reverse polarity on the ignition coil to get this to work. I'm sure that's what my problem is on the lawnmower but there is no way to reverse the polarity with a magneto that I know of.

Another thing Ossie told me to check was the polarity of the coil. I did this test with ONLY the HV circuit hooked up. When the diodes are blocking flow from the coil to ground I get no fire, when they are blocking from ground to the coil I get fire. It is this way with the car coil and the lawnmower. Can somebody explain this to me because I thought electricty always flowed from neg to pos but according to that test it is flowing from the coil to ground which would be backwards.

Only thing I know to do is get a lawnmower with points ignition and bypass the magneto and use the points to trigger my car ignition coil so that way I can reverse the polarity on it so it will work. I've yet to have anybody really explain the flow of this circuit so until I understand it then I'm at the mercy of you people that know electricity.

I've tried the string of diodes in every place in the circuit I can think of backwards and forwards and nothing helps.

Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I did some bench tests with a new line trimmer motor yesterday using only water. The motor is a two stroke motor and has a fully enclosed electronic magneto coil. I also found that the pulse coming out of the magneto output was negative. So accordingly I connected the positive of my discharge circuit to the ground of the spark plug, but still I could not get the whole circuit to fire in the open as the ignition spark would not work. I found that I had to put a 12kV microwave oven diode in series with the ignition coil/magneto's output such that it was connected to and pointing to the magneto's output lead. This fixed the problem and now the circuit fires just fine in the open.

Because the HV pulse is essentialy the back emf from the ignition coil/magneto, there is a smaller pulse of the opposite polarity just preceding it which is the power pulse the coil needs to have to create a back emf, by not having the 12kV diode, it seems that the discharge circuit shorts out this preceding power pulse and that is why it needs a diode in series with the output of the ignition coil/magneto and still be able to create the required ignition spark.

The first thing I found was that the discharge circuit would not fire inside the cylinder. I could tell this by looking at my ammeter connected to the input of the inverter. capacitor70 used a household light bulb connected in series with the 240V section of his discharge circuit which also provides a very good indication if the discharge is occurring in the cylinder or not as there is no other way to know this, unless the motor runs. After a considerable amount of test and diagnostics, I found that for some reason, perhaps even because of the water vapour, that the ignition spark was too week to occur and allow the discharge circuit to fire inside the cylinder for the spark gap size I was using. Reducing the spark gap did resolve this problem to a point, as I found that it needed to be reduced so much as that now it is prone to getting clogged with water very easily. But also, a reduced gap does not appear to be benificial to the plasma water explosion as indicated by outside tests. Larger spark gaps appear to cause larger explosions.

All up after numerous trials I found that I was only able to get the motor to fire with water only once. By fire I mean one explosion pushing the piston down once in the correct direction and not running. I also found that a number of times I could feel the motor fire as a pressure in the reverse direction on the pull cord. This is indicative that the timing appears to be advanced from TDC so if this is the case, then there is no way for me to adjust the timing on this motor as it has a fixed magneto, without modification to the design and ignition system of the motor. To get the motor to fire just once on this motor it required me to use 310uf of capacitance in the discharge circuit. Firing this amount of charge out in the open with water sprayed on the spark plug sounds like a gunshot, I can tell you!

There is also quite alot of work to be done in regard to the air/waterfuel mixture required. But this can only be explored once the motor can be setup to fire regularly. So from my initial tests, I see more advantages in doing this on a larger 4 stroke motor with a stronger ignition system and variable control of the timing and air/waterfuel mixture.

Please see the following pictures of my setup.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 03:27:54 AM
Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I did some bench tests with a new line trimmer motor yesterday using only water. The motor is a two stroke motor and has a fully enclosed electronic magneto coil. I also found that the pulse coming out of the magneto output was negative. So accordingly I connected the positive of my discharge circuit to the ground of the spark plug, but still I could not get the whole circuit to fire in the open as the ignition spark would not work. I found that I had to put a 12kV microwave oven diode in series with the ignition coil/magneto's output such that it was connected to and pointing to the magneto's output lead. This fixed the problem and now the circuit fires just fine in the open.

Because the HV pulse is essentialy the back emf from the ignition coil/magneto, there is a smaller pulse of the opposite polarity just preceding it which is the power pulse the coil needs to have to create a back emf, by not having the 12kV diode, it seems that the discharge circuit shorts out this preceding power pulse and that is why it needs a diode in series with the output of the ignition coil/magneto and still be able to create the required ignition spark.

The first thing I found was that the discharge circuit would not fire inside the cylinder. I could tell this by looking at my ammeter connected to the input of the inverter. capacitor70 used a household light bulb connected in series with the 240V section of his discharge circuit which also provides a very good indication if the discharge is occurring in the cylinder or not as there is no other way to know this, unless the motor runs. After a considerable amount of test and diagnostics, I found that for some reason, perhaps even because of the water vapour, that the ignition spark was too week to occur and allow the discharge circuit to fire inside the cylinder for the spark gap size I was using. Reducing the spark gap did resolve this problem to a point, as I found that it needed to be reduced so much as that now it is prone to getting clogged with water very easily. But also, a reduced gap does not appear to be benificial to the plasma water explosion as indicated by outside tests. Larger spark gaps appear to cause larger explosions.

All up after numerous trials I found that I was only able to get the motor to fire with water only once. By fire I mean one explosion pushing the piston down once in the correct direction and not running. I also found that a number of times I could feel the motor fire as a pressure in the reverse direction on the pull cord. This is indicative that the timing appears to be advanced from TDC so if this is the case, then there is no way for me to adjust the timing on this motor as it has a fixed magneto, without modification to the design and ignition system of the motor. To get the motor to fire just once on this motor it required me to use 310uf of capacitance in the discharge circuit. Firing this amount of charge out in the open with water sprayed on the spark plug sounds like a gunshot, I can tell you!

There is also quite alot of work to be done in regard to the air/waterfuel mixture required. But this can only be explored once the motor can be setup to fire regularly. So from my initial tests, I see more advantages in doing this on a larger 4 stroke motor with a stronger ignition system and variable control of the timing and air/waterfuel mixture.

Please see the following pictures of my setup.

Regards,

Ossie



That motor setup was NOT a failure, look what you learned!!!!!  Most impressive........I bet your next one WILL work....That 35 degrees AFTER TDC looks more and more like a viable setting.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 06, 2008, 04:23:17 AM
That motor setup was NOT a failure, look what you learned!!!!!  Most impressive........I bet your next one WILL work....That 35 degrees AFTER TDC looks more and more like a viable setting.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Thanks. Yes there is much more to learn about applying this process to get a real combustion engine working. One thing I just remembered regarding why the initial normal ignition spark can be dampened to the point of not being able to be strong enough to discharge the capacitors in the discharge circuit. Years ago I did a great deal of high voltage discharge testing in a vacuum chamber. A HV low current spark such as that from an ignition coil is incredibly strong and can travel far greater distances in a vacuum. This is because there is no air and air can be insulative to the high voltage. So from this understanding it does make sense that we have quite the opposite effect going on in the cylinder of a cumbustion engine. It seems the pressure of compressed air will dampen the ignition spark and this can create problems for the discharge circuit being able to discharge. So once again, this analysis does back up the idea that a stronger ignition pulse will be required for this process to work in a combustion engine. This may mean that most people may have difficulties if trying to apply this process to an unmodified magneto type of ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 06, 2008, 04:37:25 AM
Maybe it's best that experimenters get their electric circuit refined to the point where they can blow up plastic bottles first - that would be easier, and more encouraging than trying and failing to get a motor going.  Proof of a powerful expanding pressure would mean that the engine designs are just a design issue. 

Bumfuzzled - your ignorance on things electrical is likely to be a self-fullfilling prophesy.  You can chose to "ignore" the wealth of knowledge all around you, or you can chose to start learning.  At the very bottom if you must - but don't blame your ignorance an anything other than your own choice.

Ignition timing is going to be a big issue for most experimenters.  It might be an idea to forget the conventional ignition circuit and build a new one.  Perhaps an optical sensor that can detect a 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 04:39:05 AM
Went to my dad's and found a very old Kohler 8 HP lawnmower that is battery ignition with points and a regular canister style coil. So this will be my new test mule if I can get it to run on gasoline first, it's really old. At least I can reverse the polarity on the coil on this one and see what happens.

Ossie, when you say point the diodes toward the magneto does that mean the flow of electricity should go to the magneto or be blocked from going to the magneto?? Seems like I tried that with a string of diodes but I can't remember at the moment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 04:52:52 AM


Bumfuzzled - your ignorance on things electrical is likely to be a self-fullfilling prophesy.  You can chose to "ignore" the wealth of knowledge all around you, or you can chose to start learning.  At the very bottom if you must - but don't blame your ignorance an anything other than your own choice.

 

Hey at least I'm out there trying to figure this out instead of sitting behind a keyboard criticizing people who are actually trying to get things going. If you'll read up a couple posts you'll see the man that came up with the circuit that I'm using had trouble getting it to work on an engine too at first. Are you an electronics wizard? If so did you learn it overnight? You know how long I've been learning about electronics? About a week now so unless you have something useful to say to me then please leave me out of yer posts.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 05:08:27 AM
Some thoughts on the 4 stroke single cylinder engine:

The ignition pulse comes from the magneto.
This creates a voltage pulse with EVERY single revolution of the output shaft.
Every 2 strokes of the piston completes 1 revolution of the engine.
There are therefore 2 ignition pulses to every 4 strokes of the engine.
This creates what is called a "waste" spark. This is not a problem for a gasoline powered engine.
That is because of the "burn rate" of gasoline..... which is SLOW compared to hydrogen (10X faster!)

This slow burn rate is the REASON that the spark is set to occur before TDC.
It actually ignites the fuel/air mixture before the top of the compression stroke so it can complete the (slow) burn within the power stroke.
(It is, by the way, why gas engines are so inefficient... the premature combustion pushing against a piston that's trying to come up!)
It does this to create more TIME for the gasoline to completely combust.

Engines with points essentially run off the cam shaft which is turning at HALF the speed of the crank/output shaft.
The points are then set to spark only ONCE for every 2 revolutions of the output shaft (and 4 strokes) of the engine.

I think ultimately, we are going to want to take advantage of the extremely FAST burn rate of the hydrogen/plasma/water explosion.
We are going to want to time the spark to occur PAST TDC to get the most power and efficiency out of the engine...... when the piston is on its way DOWN on the power stroke.

Therefore, if we move our timing past TDC (by adjusting the magneto), we will find ourselves setting a 2nd spark to the INTAKE stroke.... very bad for valves.
The waste spark must be dealt with (imo).
@bumfuzzled
That old Kohler is a real find because of the points ignition setup, I don't believe you will have to deal with the waste spark and you should be able to play with the timing and set it past TDC..... nice score!




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 06, 2008, 05:08:28 AM
i am pretty much just starting to learn electronics too,but i do have some decent mechanical skills......but anyway,if you havent seen it,this might help......      http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/         .......chapter 12....i need to study it alot more myself....btw congrats on keepin on keepin on...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 06, 2008, 05:10:15 AM
Hi livingwaters08, I did not delete any posts by capacitor70 in this topic. If I did I would of mention that in the reply to you. Also please not that if I delete a post I can only delete the content! so the post would still be there just empty. Can you show me an empty post by capacitor70?

Luc

No deleting of any posts by capacitor70 have been done by me. I have no idea what it was about since I was out most of yesterday afternoon and evening and did not have access. Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

Luc

Hi Luc,
I want to apologize profusely for my error.  The posts by capacitor70, and his circuit are on the other thread: mys1r9a9m9 replication.

In my quest to gather information I criss crossed threads.  ::)

Again, My Apologies to You, Hartiberlin, and the Group.

Found a 1 cylinder B & S engine to test some circuit layouts on.  I will post pictures and results.  Hopeully Soon.

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 06, 2008, 05:54:43 AM
I am not ready yet for the complete setup but I was playing with different mod on some spark plug.

I removed on one the resistance and just fire up the spark plug (just from a small 12v 7a battery) and was getting very little spark.

I used another plug, I was not able to remove the resistance but with the new configuration I was getting a very good spark!! even with the resistance.
Its easy to try, I removed the neg electrode and put glued a 1/4-20 hex nuts on the top here the picture. I image with the inverter circuit you should get
a very BIG spark, better then a normal plug configuration!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: springfield on July 06, 2008, 06:34:35 AM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 06:48:01 AM
I reversed polarity on the coil on the old kohler motor and put a 100 watt bulb in series with the LV and I now have a working plasma ignition system!! I'm not getting a huge spark but it's decent. Do I need to go with a lower or higher wattage bulb to get more current flow??

As soon as the carb is done soaking I'll clean it up and see if I can't get it to run on gasoline. That will probably be monday, I rest on sunday.  ;D

Ossie, I just realized I don't have enough diodes to put in series between the magneto and plug on the other motor. That's probably why it didn't work for me earlier. I'll get some more diodes and try it on the first motor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: stanis on July 06, 2008, 06:53:19 AM
Another useful doc

http://www.untoldmysteries.com/extraordinary/HARD-Evidence-CAR-ENGINE-on-Tap-WATER-PlasmaSpark-Hydrogen-Fuel-Free%20Energy-(539Kb)-untoldmysteries-com.pdf
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 06, 2008, 06:54:25 AM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Hi Mike,

Please see this post:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 06, 2008, 07:28:00 AM
[edit] deleted [/edit]
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kiwijs on July 06, 2008, 07:59:17 AM
Gidday All,

Fantastic stuff happening here, Confads to Luc and Ossie and among others for getting this thing moving.

I have just attached an image of a generic ignition system with a simple mod, please take a look and tell me
is it this simple to feed the LV to the top of the Dizzy with appropriate diodes and diodes on HV from coil.
The rotor is isolated which would cause a first stage spark at rotor and dizzy cap contact hopefully creating
a great spark at the plug.
Am I missing something? Could it be that easy to create plasma spark with standard igniton system?

any feedback is good feedback

Keep up the great work

Regards  Kiwi
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 06, 2008, 08:40:48 AM
Hi All,

First post, but have read the whole thread with interest.  My plan when I get around to building this was not ICE initially, as like previous posters have pointed out, I think it's more important to establish what kind of energy is liberated here, and would like to see an exploding plastic bottle.  I had always thought of vapourised/vaporized water was what I wanted to do, but it's looking more like normal atmosphere and regular water, which makes me wonder has anybody tried cold water or an ice cube?  Would warm air, being more expanded provide less insulation and allow a better spark? Or would that compete with the expansion potential of the water?

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 06, 2008, 08:57:07 AM
@Callanan
I would really like to see you get your two-stroke motor to run.  The fact that you got one pop out of it is very encouraging.  I have three of these laying around my yard.  I have some suggestions.

You can retard the spark, but you will have to pull the flywheel and remove the key in the keyway   This is what locks the timing.  Now you can rotate the flywheel in the direction it wants to run to reduce the spark.  Rotate about 25 to 35 degrees and tighten back down securely.  Once you have found where you want it, maybe it is possible to drill a hole between the flywheel and the crankshaft and drive a pin (nail) in to secure it from slipping?

Don't forget to mix some soluble  oil with the water to oil the bearing and prevent rust.  Use distilled or deionized water to prevent mineral deposits from forming in the carb and crankcase.

It might be an interesting experiment to install an anti-foul spark plug adapter in the engine.  This is a small chamber that screws into the spark plug hole.  The spark plug then screws into it.  In a small engine like this, it will reduce the compression ratio making it easier to fire.  It might also reduce the explosion time between the plug and the top of the piston because the force has to travel further?  This would have the effect of retarding the timing slightly.  There is also the possibility of using this adapter to tap into it and feed the water directly below the plug?  The carb would then only have to supply air and you would not have to worry so much about water in the crankcase.  Just squirt a little regular oil in it occasionly like an airtool.  These adapters have a small orifice to reduce oil getting to the plug.  You will have to enlarge it for our use.  These are available for auto engines, I don't know if they make them for small engines like this?

Hope this helps,  Good luck
Tishatang
Chris




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 06, 2008, 09:23:04 AM
@gotoluc

I found this PDF on the other thread.  I was thinking this modified CDI system with multiple firings combined with your HV design may help the odds of us achieving our goad of running on water?

http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/SC-DIY-CDI-article-hires.pdf

Tishatang
Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: perma on July 06, 2008, 10:40:20 AM
Has anyone taken a look at these Firestorm plugs to see if they might make sense to use with this application? I noticed that they have no internal resistor, and seem to generate a beefy 'plasma ball' @ 12V DC. I can only imagine what they would do with the inverter in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abwXApkLhbc
Title: It isn't back emf
Post by: qiman on July 06, 2008, 11:58:06 AM
Just a small note to see things clearly.

This has nothing to with back emf and this is not what you're using.

BACK EMF is ONLY happening when the loop is closed...Back emf is is Lenz's law...the opposing current to oppose your forward current when charging the coil with 12v or your cap.

AFTER, the input is disconnected, the field collapses and you get that "inductive spike"...that comes AFTER your forward current that has back emf opposing it.

Chronologically in sequence:

1. Charge coil and the forward charge has back emf opposing it...that IS why the forward current applied field charges so slowly.

2. Disconnect and field collapses...why does it collapse fast? There is no back emf to oppose it.

Your HV spike is a time compressed potential...you put in work and you get back potential...potential over time is watts or work and work compressed back into time is high voltage potential.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 01:45:13 PM
Hey at least I'm out there trying to figure this out instead of sitting behind a keyboard criticizing people who are actually trying to get things going. If you'll read up a couple posts you'll see the man that came up with the circuit that I'm using had trouble getting it to work on an engine too at first. Are you an electronics wizard? If so did you learn it overnight? You know how long I've been learning about electronics? About a week now so unless you have something useful to say to me then please leave me out of yer posts.

Right on Bumfuzzled,

The post right below your last post is a VERY good one!!!!!  His recognition of the fast burn time of Hydrogen and timing requirements is MOST important!  That engine you have sounds great, if you can reset the points and the magneto coil to match, you should have it made at least from the firing end of it......the water delivery system via "carburetor".....I"m not so sure of as water doesn't vaporize like gasoline!!!!!

If too much, just reset the points to 25-35 degrees AFTER TDC and use an external coil/power supply as others are trying and use the points as a trigger.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 01:51:01 PM
I am not ready yet for the complete setup but I was playing with different mod on some spark plug.

I removed on one the resistance and just fire up the spark plug (just from a small 12v 7a battery) and was getting very little spark.

I used another plug, I was not able to remove the resistance but with the new configuration I was getting a very good spark!! even with the resistance.
Its easy to try, I removed the neg electrode and put glued a 1/4-20 hex nuts on the top here the picture. I image with the inverter circuit you should get
a very BIG spark, better then a normal plug configuration!



Hi One,

Very good work.  You need to remove the resistor or NOT use a resistor plug so the current from the LV supply can flow quickly in the plasma/spark.  The resistor in plug will limit the current!

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 01:59:38 PM
Has anyone taken a look at these Firestorm plugs to see if they might make sense to use with this application? I noticed that they have no internal resistor, and seem to generate a beefy 'plasma ball' @ 12V DC. I can only imagine what they would do with the inverter in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abwXApkLhbc


Where can you buy them????? 

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on July 06, 2008, 02:56:57 PM
nowhere   :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 04:14:40 PM
More thoughts on the "waste spark" as described previously.
If we're going to continue to work on the 4 stroke single cylinder engine, we are going to have to deal with it.

The magneto driven ignition system (as set up for gasoline) creates 2 sparks for every 4 strokes. (see previous post).

Normally, because the timing is set to occur BEFORE TDC,
the waste spark is then "buried" into the exhaust stroke..... and creates NOTHING in the inert gas environment.
and so it creates no problems.

Should we decide to change the timing and move that spark to occur PAST TDC,
we are pushing that 2nd "waste" spark to occur into the INTAKE stroke ( with valve "open" ).
The vapor being introduced into the cylinder at that point would then explode with an open valve..... and that is a problem.

Thinking further about timing normally set to occur BEFORE TDC,
It could very well be, that with hydrogen/plasma/water, and its incredibly FAST burn rate and Explosive Power....
it would be working AGAINST us.
Here's how:
As I said before, the inefficiency of the gas engine is due to exploding the fuel/air during the last part of the compression stroke, i.e BEFORE TDC.
The momentum of the engine overcomes this ill timed event though, and all is well (except for the energy LOST).
But what if the engine is now "fighting" to overcome a much greater force... i.e. a hydrogen/plasma/water explosion during compression?
The answer of course would be to simply move the spark forward into the power stroke and enjoy the fast burn rate and power of our new fuel.
Which brings us back to the "waste spark".
It's gotta go.  :)


The "waste" spark must be eliminated.  Any ideas out there?
Title: Re: It isn't back emf
Post by: poynt99 on July 06, 2008, 04:20:49 PM
Just a small note to see things clearly.

This has nothing to with back emf and this is not what you're using.

BACK EMF is ONLY happening when the loop is closed...Back emf is is Lenz's law...the opposing current to oppose your forward current when charging the coil with 12v or your cap.

AFTER, the input is disconnected, the field collapses and you get that "inductive spike"...that comes AFTER your forward current that has back emf opposing it.

Chronologically in sequence:

1. Charge coil and the forward charge has back emf opposing it...that IS why the forward current applied field charges so slowly.

2. Disconnect and field collapses...why does it collapse fast? There is no back emf to oppose it.

Your HV spike is a time compressed potential...you put in work and you get back potential...potential over time is watts or work and work compressed back into time is high voltage potential.

qiman, of course you are 100% correct. thank you for clearing that up.

we get lazy sometimes and use the wrong terms ;)

also thanks for the simple diagram, i think you have captured the essence of what's really going on here.

have you tried this with a smaller cap yet, say 3u3?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 06, 2008, 05:05:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0

A simple method of 'measuring' explosive energy. Maybe it can be helpful with your experiments.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 06, 2008, 05:22:28 PM
I am not near enough along to try it yet,but I wonder if a much lower compression ratio in the cylinder might not be better for this system?Really all the power would come from the explosion and not the compression ratio wouldnt it?I know that higher compression ratio engines are more efficient and powerful to a certain point with gasoline,up to about 10 to 1 on todays gas.But i think the difference would be compared to trying to kickstart a v8 motor as to the bike motor that cap70 has running.Anybody else?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 06:37:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0

A simple method of 'measuring' explosive energy. Maybe it can be helpful with your experiments.

Thanks Alan.  But pure HHO in a vacuum purged container implodes (you can research this out as it has been documented many times)
The fact that he got his device to portray an explosion, means that he had "some" amount of ambient air involved.... including vapor.
He simply measured the explosion of that amount of water.... and since we/he have no idea as to the ratios of air/vapor/HHO..... his
calculations unfortunately mean nothing.  Its cool that he got an explosion though..... but until you can control such variables... calculations like that mean absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 06:37:40 PM
I'm not sure the waste spark will be a problem if you retard the timing to ATDC but one sure fire way to tell is if it starts backfiring.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 06:45:47 PM
First time I have posted here.
I have been following since this thread since it first started on this forum.
I have built a circuit based off of the picture diagram at the beginning. I'm currently not using my 400w Black and Decker inverter because I can't get more than about 2 or 3 sparks and something trips internally and it shuts itself off. This happens with everything from a 1 microfarad to 150 microfarad capacitor. I gave up on the inverter for now and went to something I know is sure to work. I'm using 110v AC from a wall socket going through 4 60w and 2 75w light bulbs in parallel to give me 390w AC. Wish I could attach a picture but my wife has the digital camera right now. I run this into an 8 amp full wave bridge rectifier. The negative from the bridge goes to ground on the MSD coil, spark plug(motor) ground, and one side of a 135 microfarad capacitor. The positive side of the bridge connects to the spark plug via 16 1N5407 diodes. The output of the coil is connected to the spark plug also. It looks very much like the picture diagram at the front of this post except  where the SPDT switch is I have fabricated a set of points that are operated by a cam lobe collar locked down by a set screw on the output shaft of a Briggs & Stratton 5HP Horizontal shaft engine. So far I've tried timing settings from 40 degrees before top dead center to 60 degrees after top dead center. I haven't been able to get it to run with only water. I can tell you this though- there is no way a normal ignition system would take the amount of water I've run through this engine. It seems to want to try to run on water at low rpm with the throttle valve completely closed.

I have run out of time for now and will be gone for 4 days. Will try again when I get back.

I'd like to mention that there is a big difference I think between the picture diagram and the circuit diagram at the beginning of this post from my point of view. The picture diagram is firing a capacitor THROUGH the coil and the circuit diagram is firing a capacitor ON TOP OF a coil discharge. I think this leaves more to be investigated.

I'd also like to mention that while using this setup the spark plug will fire without being grounded to the circuit. The engine is mounted to wood boards for insulation purposes. I accidentally forget to connect the ground from the circuit to the engine block and the plug still fired. As soon as I touched the motor I got shocked and then figured out I forgot the ground wire. Any explanations on this?

If someone is going to try this be very careful. I don't touch the engine while starting or running it. I turn it over with a 1/3 HP electric motor via a drive belt pulley from a water pump off an old chevy. If you take off the recoil starter and remove the ratchet clutch a water pump pulley will bolt right on with a  fine thread nut. Water pump pulleys are about 6" in diameter. I put a 2" pulley on the electric motor. It turns over great! When the engine starts firing, unplug the electric motor or it pulls down the engine. This way I can turn it over while watching the resistor light bulbs and get an indication of when the plug has cleared itself and starts firing again after being drowned out.

I originally tried turning it over with a 3/4" electric drill but for some reason it caused a full draw on the resistor light bulbs. I guess it was searching for a ground through the drill.

Happy testing everyone!!!!!
God loves you
MIke

Wow Mike, you are doing great work. Most impressive ;) ...my hat off to you my friend. All this research, testing and development was done without a single post

This is a great example of real research. Build it and learn, then share to help others.

You need to restrict the air intake when using water as a fuel since the water contains oxygen itself. That is why you notice it works better with the throttle closed.

This weekend I am working on mounting a 3.5 hp lawnmower motor to a washing machine motor frame which I will use the electric motor to keep turning the motor as I do adjustments. See pictures attached

May this be an example to everyone of how much can be accomplished without a single post.

God bless your great work Mike.

Luc

Title: Re: It isn't back emf
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 07:34:32 PM
Just a small note to see things clearly.

This has nothing to with back emf and this is not what you're using.

BACK EMF is ONLY happening when the loop is closed...Back emf is is Lenz's law...the opposing current to oppose your forward current when charging the coil with 12v or your cap.

AFTER, the input is disconnected, the field collapses and you get that "inductive spike"...that comes AFTER your forward current that has back emf opposing it.

Chronologically in sequence:

1. Charge coil and the forward charge has back emf opposing it...that IS why the forward current applied field charges so slowly.

2. Disconnect and field collapses...why does it collapse fast? There is no back emf to oppose it.

Your HV spike is a time compressed potential...you put in work and you get back potential...potential over time is watts or work and work compressed back into time is high voltage potential.

Thanks qiman ;)... At everyone it would be wise to listen to user name: qiman here at OU who is user name: Aaron at the Energetic Forum if you wish to understand the effect of this circuit.

I may have been blessed in finding this simple circuit but truly I am an amateur in electronics compare to him and Ossie.

Again, here is a link to Aaron's topic at the Energetic Forum: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html 
and have a look at all of his posts here at OU: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4674;sa=showPosts

He has made 2 video's explaining this effect.

Link video 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Link video 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

Many are not understanding what this circuit is doing. I have said from the beginning! ... this is not a Capacitive Discharge Circuit

Thank you Aaron and Ossie for your hard work and time in helping to explain this circuit. Without your first step in testing such a simple circuit and then sharing your experience I think this topic would not be anywhere close to where it is now.

THIS IS THE POWER OF SHARING THAT MAKES THIS POSSIBLE... IF WE ALL WORK THE SAME WAY WE WILL CHANGE THE WORLD

God bless you both.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: provelless on July 06, 2008, 07:37:30 PM
Luc, have you spun the engine with this setup? The reason I ask is most lawn mower engines have a aluminum flywheel and when you remove the blade you remove the inertia the engine needs to crank over easily. Engines with the blade removed will start but are hard to start and kick back alot. Just a heads up in case this occurs. I'm still waiting on diodes, bought all Radio Shack had and I'm still short a few.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
@ bumfuzzled
Good point......ATDC might be safe for the waste spark... depending on the "length" (duration in time) of the plasma (white) vs.normal (blue) spark.
But you wouldn't get a "back" fire (still burning fuel/air coming out of the tail pipe on the exhaust stroke).....
You'd get a "front" fire coming back up through the carburetor.  Be careful out there, should you start introducing
HHO into the intake (along with water)...... as a waste spark "front" fire will certainly test your spark arrestor / bubbler setup.

@pilot/Mike
I read through your ignition setup on the B&S 5HP and your experimenting with changing the timing before/after TDC.
I assume you are no longer relying on the magneto with your improvised setup.
If you have attached your set of points directly to the OUTPUT SHAFT .... you ALSO are creating a waste spark, i.e. 1 per revolution.
If you can devise a way to run the points off of the CAM shaft, you would then get a single spark for every 4 strokes / 2 revolutions.
Then you would be "free" to place the spark anywhere that runs best! Hats off to you.  ;D
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 07:57:08 PM
Luc, have you spun the engine with this setup? The reason I ask is most lawn mower engines have a aluminum flywheel and when you remove the blade you remove the inertia the engine needs to crank over easily. Engines with the blade removed will start but are hard to start and kick back alot. Just a heads up in case this occurs. I'm still waiting on diodes, bought all Radio Shack had and I'm still short a few.

Thanks for your good point but I'm hoping the 10" inch pulley and belt system to the electric starting motor and the electric motor rotor itself will do the job to keep a good balance. I had read somewhere that an induction motor can be used as a generator once it is turned by another source.

I wonder if this would classify for the Overunity prize if it start the motor on water and then use the starter induction motor to outputs power ;D

Please note that that is meant to be a joke.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 08:50:36 PM
At everyone,

I thank you all for your input and ideas! ... every idea has value and everyone is free to share and use the information as they wish. Please do not be discouraged if I don't reply to your post as I am really wanting to spend most of my time in the testing and development and not too much in the moderator seat. Keep your posts related to this topic and it should all work well.

I need help with 3 tasks.


Task one; can someone do up a list of Frequently Asked Questions? which I will add to the first page of this topic which we will also keep updating as we find new answers.
 
Task two: can someone compile all of user callanan "ossie's" (related to this topic) and do up a summery (using Ossie's words) of all the important observations he has found of this circuit. All his posts are here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=840;sa=showPosts  Please include the video links in the order he is describing the effect. I will post this also at the first page of this topic to help newcomers.

Task three: the same for user: qiman  His post on OU are all here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4674;sa=showPosts
and his post on Energetic Forum are here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

In order not to duplicate this work! please send me a PM or an email at: gotoluc@yahoo.com and let me know what task you are willing to do.

Your future is based on your participation at this time.


Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 09:40:42 PM
@ bumfuzzled
Good point......ATDC might be safe for the waste spark... depending on the "length" (duration in time) of the plasma (white) vs.normal (blue) spark.
But you wouldn't get a "back" fire (still burning fuel/air coming out of the tail pipe on the exhaust stroke).....
You'd get a "front" fire coming back up through the carburetor.  Be careful out there, should you start introducing
HHO into the intake (along with water)...... as a waste spark "front" fire will certainly test your spark arrestor / bubbler setup.

That's what we call a backfire because it's firing backwards thru the carb instead of forward thru the exhaust like it would normally do. We're on the same page tho, it's all good.  ;D I decided not to rest today so off I go to see if it'll run!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 10:09:08 PM
Hi everyone :D

User name: Jetijs of the Energetic forum has a great replication with quite a large spark gap, the largest I've seen so far.

His video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTu5eiZ98Q

Back to the garage.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 06, 2008, 10:18:48 PM
Thanks for your good point but I'm hoping the 10" inch pulley and belt system to the electric starting motor and the electric motor rotor itself will do the job to keep a good balance. I had read somewhere that an induction motor can be used as a generator once it is turned by another source.

I wonder if this would classify for the Overunity prize if it start the motor on water and then use the starter induction motor to outputs power ;D

Please note that that is meant to be a joke.

Luc

Luc

Yes I have read  that a  standard  induction motor  will work as a generator  It can put out   about as much  power as it  would use  to run it .       
 ........ the   motor  should act  as a  LARGE  flywheel  sense it  also is being powered .  ..........



Assuming  you  get   your motor  to run  .........  your  system is  not  exactly  over unity  because  you  are using  a kind of fuel ......
HOWEVER ......... the exhaust  WILL  condense  into  water .   If  you set up  a  large  enough   cooling  loop ........it should   be able to run closed  loop .......... if you  are recycling  all your fuel  and producing  energy  there is no  question that you  are over unity       Running  closed loop  would also  put an and to any  possible   talk about any kind of pollution  from the  combustion  process


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 07, 2008, 01:13:03 AM
Hi everyone.

 Several pages back in this forum a couple of people mentioned the peculiar thunking noise of the exhaust from s1r9a9m9 (mars 1999) small water engine.
 
 I've heard this exhaust noise before but spent a couple of days thinking about what engines I've heard it from and what they have in common. One engine I can remember that made this noise was an engine off of a Honda 3-wheeler 110cc. I put it on a go-kart several years ago. It was locked up when I got it so I honed the rust out of the cylinder and just put it back together. Low compression but it ran. At a slow idle it made that type of exhaust noise. Old John Deere tractors (Johnnie Poppers) make the same type of exhaust noise at slow idle. They are also fairly low compression. These two engines also have fairly massive flywheels. The piston and rod impart almost all of their energy after combustion to the crankshaft and flywheel before the piston is finished moving down the cylinder sleeve. The piston is pulled down the rest of the way by the flywheel momentum. This creates a vacuum thunking noise when the exhaust valve opens. If this engine truly will run on water alone I'm speculating that the compression (explosion) taking place is very short lived. Since I am on the road and away from my shop, this is what my next plans are if anyone wants to try them.

1. Lower the compression ratio by making a spacer between the head and cylinder block.
2. Remove the carbureuter and intake and block off the intake port with a plate. Tap and drill the plate
    for two metal tube lines with needle valves for each line. Use one for air adjustment and the other to
    suck water from a container.
3. Attach a massive flywheel to the crankshaft.

That's all I can think of for now.
Good luck    God's speed
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 07, 2008, 01:31:13 AM
@goldenequity

You're absolutely right sir. It does result in two sparks for every one power stroke. Two complete revolutions of the crankshaft equals only one power stroke of the piston. I've thought about what you said and it is possible by changing the timing by up to 60 degrees to get into a condition where it is firing when you don't want it. I guess I have two choices- make a two-to-one geared points distributor or try it as is. I'm not too scared of a popback though because it is water. I've lost my eyelashes and eyebrows several times due to gasoline popbacks. The only thing is I don't know if it could be doing a small unnoticed popback robbing energy from the power stroke.Thanks for your insights.

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 07, 2008, 01:48:04 AM
Oh yeah forgot one more'

4. A short piston stroke would probably be better.

I think the guy with the model aircraft engine might have a good chance at getting his to run. If he puts a regular size plug in the top of that small combustion chamber with that short of a stroke even a small explosion should make it run.

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on July 07, 2008, 01:56:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11sY8Sno_y8&feature=related

is this what is being built here?.........improve the spark, then add water?.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 02:30:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11sY8Sno_y8&feature=related

is this what is being built here?.........improve the spark, then add water?.

Borg

This   thread is about  the  a circuit  to  improve  the  spark


The  video  is about  a  guy with a water injector  plug ...... 

My  thread   is  about   building  a water injector  plug  but I am not  trying to replicate the one in the  video

I am  just getting started .....

 http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 07, 2008, 03:16:29 AM
deleted
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on July 07, 2008, 03:21:53 AM
Hello,

Luc Great job!!! Thanks for caring & sharing!!!
Is it ok to use a bridge rectifier rated at 400v , 25amp?
and what relay would work the best.
will this work on a pull start 4 stroke lawn mower?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 07, 2008, 03:40:42 AM
Hi all,

Got these links from the yahoo WaterFuel1978 group. Looking at the date these videos have been added it seems that people have been working on what we are trying to do here, with some success, for quite some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQF6fvIL3RY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VEVXCXs8dQ

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 07, 2008, 04:12:30 AM
Hi Everyone,

I have noticed a few people seem to be waiting quite a while for parts, and are running into some costly expenses for their parts.  I found a great place to buy parts online (checked out many sites) and bought mine from here:       

www.mouser.com


Here is what I paid for my parts:
Quantity     Part                                  Cost
200           1N4007 diodes                    $0.02 each
200           1N5404 diodes                    $0.086 each
  16           1 Ohm 10 Watt Resistor      $0.46 each
  20           10uf 250V Capacitor            $0.17 each

I paid for regular ground shipping (express shipping is more expensive) and got my parts in 3 days delivered to my door.  Total bill was $36.94 including shipping!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 07, 2008, 04:20:40 AM
Didn't have much success today. I thought I heard it hit a few times but I'm not real sure if it was or if it was just the old motor making noises. I think I need more power in the plasma arc. I added another cap and it seemed to have doubled the arc intensity but still no motor running on water. I'm wondering if this motor not being an overhead valve motor is hindering me? The spark plug is over to the side instead of directly over the piston. I'm just wondering what kind of swirl action of the air/fuel mixture these lil motors get with the combustion chamber made like it is.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 07, 2008, 04:25:27 AM
@all

In regards to an induction motor as a generator:  As I recall, you have to energize one set of coils with the battery voltage to create a magnetic field for the other set of windings to generate voltage. 

you probably will need to rig a double throw switch?  In one position is start and the other position is DC to the motor from the battery.  Modern alternators need DC from the battery to generate voltage.  If you have a permanent magnet motor be the starter motor, you do not need to anything.  After start, it becomes a generator.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 07, 2008, 05:02:03 AM
Someone have tried this plug ? http://www.pulstarplug.com/index.html

They seam to do what firestorm do in term of result but they are using a different way to produce the plasma. I am not sure if its plasma. What I would like to see is the pulstar plug with firestorm, a merge of the 2 technologies will make the strongest plug ever see!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 07, 2008, 06:04:57 AM
I would imagine that if you just cut off the outer electrode and install a washer in it's place to bring the outside of the plug housing upto the same height as the inner then you would get a decent spark that would arc radially in different directions each fire, and give you much less chance of having water block the path.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Spokane1 on July 07, 2008, 06:29:27 AM
Dear Non-Funded Researchers,

Here is a typical current pulse through a modified spark plug with a .125" Gap using a 5 UF capacitor charged to 325V. The event lasts about 12 uS.In this case a 100 Amp pulse was observed using a Pearson 110 Current Transformer. This pulse was done in a chamber without any water vapor and is intended to be the base line for exploring these water assisted explosions.

I have photos of the set up and detailed write up to go with it but this program bounced it for being to big and then erased all the text that took an hour to compose.

This is an attempt to see if there is any connection between this thread and the work of Marvin Cole (E.V. Gray) and his "Converter Switching Element Tube" (CSET).

Spokane1
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 07, 2008, 06:46:44 AM
Thanks for working on a baseline Spokane.... great idea. ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 07, 2008, 06:58:08 AM
Thank you for your efforts and your contribution, but for the less learned of our group could you help us understand what you posted.

Be
Well
Tinker
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 07:15:50 AM

This is an attempt to see if there is any connection between this thread and the work of Marvin Cole (E.V. Gray) and his "Converter Switching Element Tube" (CSET).

Spokane1

Spokane

There  have been claims  that  this  circuit   creates a radiant event  .  Like  the  grey tube does .

Im my opinion  it is not proven yet .   Although  it does  fit  the description  pretty well .

Personaly I  don't  think I  will ever be convenced  it is  a true radiant event  by a spark .     
If  it is  a radiant event  then  if we can make a string of them we can  put a  collection  grid  around it and  charge a battery or light a bulb or something  .

Scroll  back to reply 561 if you  havn't read that already


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 07, 2008, 07:25:09 AM
I have noticed a few people seem to be waiting quite a while for parts, and are running into some costly expenses for their parts.  I found a great place to buy parts online (checked out many sites) and bought mine from here:      

www.mouser.com

Here is what I paid for my parts:
Quantity     Part                                  Cost
200           1N4007 diodes                    $0.02 each
200           1N5404 diodes                    $0.086 each
  16           1 Ohm 10 Watt Resistor      $0.46 each
  20           10uf 250V Capacitor            $0.17 each

I paid for regular ground shipping (express shipping is more expensive) and got my parts in 3 days delivered to my door.  Total bill was $36.94 including shipping!


Thanks Geo, you have made a very important post, mouser is much cheaper than Radio Shack and much more variety. My Radio Shack has run out of important parts also, must be the Luc effect.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 07, 2008, 07:27:29 AM
Hi all,

Got these links from the yahoo WaterFuel1978 group. Looking at the date these videos have been added it seems that people have been working on what we are trying to do here, with some success, for quite some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQF6fvIL3RY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VEVXCXs8dQ

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, I have been a member at WaterFuel1978 group for 2 or 3 years now. I have seen all the development on those video's you posted which is a capacitive discharge system idea.  If I remember the user name of the one who did this was Tero but none of it worked with water once on the engine. The engine you see running is with fuel and not water. He was just showing his CD ignition system running. He said he could not get it run on water but said it ran realy well with gas :P

As far as I know no one has got it to run like S1R's system.

Keep in mind that when I found this circuit he said it was very much like his but I needed to add coils.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 07:32:40 AM
Assuming  you  get   your motor  to run  .........  your  system is  not  exactly  over unity  because  you  are using  a kind of fuel ......HOWEVER ......... the exhaust  WILL  condense  into  water .   If  you set up  a  large  enough   cooling  loop ........it should   be able to run closed  loop .......... if you  are recycling  all your fuel  and producing  energy  there is no  question that you  are over unity       Running  closed loop  would also  put an and to any  possible   talk about any kind of pollution  from the  combustion  process
Very good point.  This is why my idea posted earlier about a water pump system would be much easier to prove real over-unity.  The water system could be totally closed loop.  Imagine a gravity tank - say 10 meters up a hill, with 50mm pipe running up and back.  The pressure vessel with check valves and sparkplug would provide timed surges of water up to the tank.  The water flowing down could drive a waterwheel/turbine generator - and if that could maintain charge for the spark, overunity is achieved.

I admire the enthusiasm of those converting engines.  I just hope that they don't cloud the issue with failures that will draw attention away from the real core energy source here. 

I think there are those struggling with the idea that this is about primarily about producing heat, or disassociating H & O.  I expect there will be an element of this - but if that is the main focus, it will soon be found that there is no overunity.  Very possibly there is some real MIB disinformation clouding this thread already - I have my suspicions about some posts that seem to be guiding the attention off the real issue. 

If we allow ourselves to get misdirected - we will find we are using too much current, and will never achieve overunity.  The circuits to follow are the ones that use the least amount of current - preferably in milliamps.

IMO - this is cold energy.  The Latent Heat of converting liquid water into water vapour.  This is regular physics - nothing metaphysical needs to be invoked.

Sorry if i've offended anyone.  (Bumfuzzled - you better put me on your ignore list, because I say what I think - it's nothing personal).

My 2 cents from somebody just sitting at a keyboard adding nothing to the discussion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 07:40:59 AM
Burn these words into your brain (cut from the Graneau experiment pdf):

Quote
In 1994, we discovered that when
a small quantity of water (usually but not necessarily distilled) is converted to
high-density fog within microseconds, the fog explodes violently. Fog is de?ned
as a multiplicity of tiny water droplets that ?oat in air. The discovery has
been fully described in a book dealing with pre-Maxwellian electrodynamics
(Graneau and Graneau 1996). More recent ?ndings have been discussed in a
previous paper in this journal (Hathaway et al. 1998).
The fog generator is a small water-?lled electric arc cavity to be described
later. In a typical explosion, the cavity receives less than about 50 J of
electrostatic energy from a high-voltage capacitor. Almost all of the input
energy is converted to low-grade heat, raising the water to a few degrees above
ambient temperature. This heat is incapable of raising steam or contributing in
any other way to the explosion. It seems inevitable that the fog is being
produced by electrodynamic forces in the current-carrying arc plasma. Such
forces can furnish the mechanical surface-tension energy required for tearing
bulk water apart into tiny fog droplets.
With 50 J of input energy, the quantity of fog produced is of the order of
0.75 g of water. To dissociate this amount of water into oxygen and hydrogen
would require 10 kJ of energy. Hence the fog explosion is unlikely to be caused
by electrolytic dissociation of water molecules. Without this dissociation, the
most likely source of the explosion energy is that stored by hydrogen bonds
between the water molecules. This bond energy is said to be equal to the latent
heat of evaporation, and therefore could contribute up to 2200 J g−".
Figure 1 depicts the proposed renewable water energy cycle. The fog contains
less H#O?H#O bond energy per gram than a raindrop. In other words, its latent
heat of evaporation is less than that of bulk water. This is known from the fact
that the equilibrium vapour pressure just outside a water droplet increases with
decreasing droplet diameter (Young 1993). The internal-energy difference
between the cold fog expelled from the accelerator must be made up by
atmospheric heat ? that is, essentially by solar energy. No other energy source
appears to be available for replacing the extracted kinetic energy.

Note the big difference between 50 Joules and 10 kilo Joules (10,000 Joules).  Don't miss this point - because that is what the misdirectors want you to lose sight of.  If you are blowing up inverters and using mains AC for brute force - you are mistaken, or are intentionally trying to misdirect research.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ggx9 on July 07, 2008, 07:57:21 AM
To use a motor as a generator, the cheapest and simplest would be the common 110 or 220 volt AC washing machine motor of 1/4 or 1/3 horsepower which typically are rated at 1725 RPM (on 60Hz). This motor wants to run at 1800 RPM, but the load (working at rated horsepower) will slow it a bit to 1725 RPM. If a lawn mower engine is turning the motor at approximately 1875 RPM it will generate approximately the nameplate power (186 watts for a 1/4 HP) motor and send the power to your local electric company. All this time the motor must be connected to the power line, which means it will be turning approx. 1725 RPM while the lawn mower engine is trying to start. This may be a scary or dangerous way to start a lawn mower engine since they are normally turned MUCH slower during normal starting. Of course, some consideration must be made to match the power of the lawn mower engine to the power rating of the electric motor and at the RPM's that they will be operated at. The lawn mower engine will produce much less than its rated power when run at 1875 RPM.

In summary; If the electric motor is made to turn a bit faster than its normal rated speed all the while being connected to the power line, it will act as a generator under these conditions.

I think some sort of arrangement like this (one cylinder 4 stroke engine turning an electric motor as a generator) would be the best testbed to develop the spark circuit.

Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 07, 2008, 07:58:54 AM
Very good point.  This is why my idea posted earlier about a water pump system would be much easier to prove real over-unity.  The water system could be totally closed loop.  Imagine a gravity tank - say 10 meters up a hill, with 50mm pipe running up and back.  The pressure vessel with check valves and sparkplug would provide timed surges of water up to the tank.  The water flowing down could drive a waterwheel/turbine generator - and if that could maintain charge for the spark, overunity is achieved.

I admire the enthusiasm of those converting engines.  I just hope that they don't cloud the issue with failures that will draw attention away from the real core energy source here. 

I think there are those struggling with the idea that this is about primarily about producing heat, or disassociating H & O.  I expect there will be an element of this - but if that is the main focus, it will soon be found that there is no overunity.  Very possibly there is some real MIB disinformation clouding this thread already - I have my suspicions about some posts that seem to be guiding the attention off the real issue. 

If we allow ourselves to get misdirected - we will find we are using too much current, and will never achieve overunity.  The circuits to follow are the ones that use the least amount of current - preferably in milliamps.

IMO - this is cold energy.  The Latent Heat of converting liquid water into water vapour.  This is regular physics - nothing metaphysical needs to be invoked.

Sorry if i've offended anyone.  (Bumfuzzled - you better put me on your ignore list, because I say what I think - it's nothing personal).

My 2 cents from somebody just sitting at a keyboard adding nothing to the discussion.

Hi greendoor, you are right!... lets not all work on the same thing!... like trying to use this circuit to make a engine work on water. Can others please start to do other tests with the circuit. I'm quite sure it's not just for water explosion!...it can do more. Today I saw a post by Aaron at the Energetic forum saying that he was going to move onto Tesla experiment with the circuit. So lets try other experiments with it. If you find something new,  post your findings here with a link to a new topic so we can all support your work.

Thanks for bringing our attention to this greendoor

Where are you allcanadian?.. can you please start a Tesla style topic using this circuit?


Luc
Title: keeping the perspective
Post by: qiman on July 07, 2008, 09:53:15 AM
This concept is too important to have the tower of babel fall on our heads so nobody knows what is going on.

The circuit is not overunity and never will be. You cannot have more than unity or more than everything that you have.

The distinction is this and it is NOT about semantics, it is about seeing very clearly things for what they are and keeping things in perspective.

Efficiency of a circuit is TOTAL INPUT compared to TOTAL OUTPUT. It will ALWAYS be 100% or less. Period!

COP (coefficient of performance) of a circuit or system is YOUR OWN PERSONAL INPUT compared to TOTAL OUTPUT. The total output CAN be more than your own personal input. Where does the extra come from? The environment and can only happen in open circuits or open systems that are explained very well by non-equilibrium open thermodynamics.

If you fly a kite...you spend maybe 10 parts energy to get it in the air...after that, the environmental input (wind) keeps it up...you only have to wiggle your finger supplying almost nothing compared to the wind. If you put in 10 parts or even 20 parts for an entire hour but the wind is supplying 980 parts of input...the TOTAL input is 1000 parts energy...there WILL be losses from gravity and whatever else. If the total work done by the kite in flying is 700 parts and 300 parts in energy losses...that is 1000-300=700 output...so 1000 in and 700 out...that is 70% efficient...TOTAL INPUT COMPARED TO TOTAL OUTPUT.

However....YOUR input is 20 parts for an hour and nature supplied 980 input over the same time. And there is 700 parts in flying work done (after losses)...you put in 20 and you got 700 out of the system. That is a COP of 35 or 3500% gain compared to what YOU put in...but that isn't overunity. That is simply a gain that doesn't violate open system thermodynamics.

Over time, the term overunity, like this website name, has picked up the meaning of more out than in and for a long time, it wasn't known very clearly what the distinctions are. So when someone says overunity, it implies more out than the operator inputs and not the TOTAL input that includes free input from the environment. Even though someone may use the term overunity these days, please keep in mind the distinction. Anyway, it is fairly accepted to use overunity to mean more out than we input, but at least know the real distinctions, please.

There is not over 100% efficiency in these systems but there is the possibility of over 1.0 COP.

1/2CVsquared...how many joules are you expending from the cap once charged and what work is done at the gap with OR without water.
Do that comparison and that will tell you the COP...how do you measure what is at the spark? Be creative and you'll find the ways. But since you spend energy to charge the cap...not over 100% efficient...there is no free energy as you invest some to get a bigger ROI.

Any investment that makes you money is over 1.0 COP....but an open system like an investment doesn't require that it gives you over 1.0 cop...you could lose money but you do have the opportunity to gain. What is the loss on the money system if you put money in an investment that gains? You spent energy to type a letter to your broker, walk to the bank or whatever...same thing.

Anyway, I hope that hones the focus.

The distinction of efficiency vs. COP is as misunderstood as people mistaking Back EMF for the inductive spike.

I agree everyone should work on different parts of this concept...but BE ON THE SAME PAGE AND STANDARDIZE YOUR LANGUAGE. What makes it so convoluted is that science by committee DOES NOT WORK, NEVER HAS WORKED AND NEVER WILL WORK. Do your own experiments and report your results.

Documentation beats Conversation :)....old marketing philosophy.

Please don't take me the wrong way...I am ecstatic about this work and see lots of good things but it can get flushed down the drain just as fast by politics, miscommunication and lack of focus. I honestly hope this helps because one small misunderstanding of what is happening could sets large groups of people down the wrong path...so be on guard and document everything.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 07, 2008, 10:41:31 AM
More on this topic over at this thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5103.new.html

I agree. Lets not get hung up trying to achieve overunity. Aren't the possibilities of this circuit exciting enough already? I'd love for people to be able to say "it took me 3 years, and I was able to develop a water powered ICE". However, what groundbreaking developments would emerge if someone said "it took me 3 years worth of research, but I was able to prove that overunity is indeed not possible with this circuit".
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 07, 2008, 12:25:46 PM
Some words again from an armchair engineer :) :
Why not concentrating on finding out how much (explosive) energy a single spark contains or frees?
I posted a video earlier where someone does that with HHO, by testing how much distance a weight is lifted.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 12:38:15 PM
For fekksake - this forum is called "overunity".  I agree that the term has no meaning.  It's like "magic" - once we know how the trick is done, it's not magic anymore. 

I prefer the term free-energy - by my simple definition: I don't have to pay for it! 

Once understood - any "overunity" device will be seen as a COP >1 device that transforms an existing energy source, at less than 100% efficiency.  There is no point arguing about that.  Once the working principle is understood - it will be viewed with contempt, just like heatpumps.  Heatpumps are free energy by my definition - and there is absolutely nothing to stop us connecting the output back into the input for self sustaining operation.  The drinking bird, or Minto Wheel, is a self sustaing perpetual motion machine of the 2nd kind - and the over-unity prize should have been given out years ago.

Arguing semantics is useless.  What I do NOT want to see is a dozen failed frustrated attempts at getting an ICE motor to run on water, and this whole thread being declared a nonsense.  There is a principle here that blows my mind, and I want to build the best implementation of that idea.  I just don't believe that taking an existing ICE engine is the best way, but it's a "way" - and good luck to those trying.

Does anyone truely think that the powers that rule this planet will let this thread change the world?  Will we see trucks and trains and boats and planes running on water power alone - leaving a trail of pure energised water behind them in the near future?  I hope so - but I can't see the Bush Oil administration allowing that to happen without war breaking out.  So how do you think they will smear this sort of information?  I have no doubt it's already begun.

The working principle that I see uncovered here is the latent heat in water.  Which comes from ambient heat.  Which comes from solar.  This is a water planet - irradiated with energy from the sun 24/7.  It's all around us - and this is a huge breakthrough revelation for me.  Excuse me for getting excited about it.

So yes: it's not overunity.  The energy is already in the water - sustained by ambiant heat, which is Solar.  In that regard, it's not too different from heat pumps or heat engines. 

The questions is: can we get better than a COP >3?  Otherwise heatpumps are a better way to go.  But I suspect we can get much greater than COP 3.

Graneau have spelled it out for anyone to understand. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 07, 2008, 01:17:01 PM
Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

As far as I know it is not possible to delete your posts after you have posted them...
It is possible to modify/edit them for a short period after you first posted the message,
but the window for that closes in something like an hour or so, and after that, as
far as I know, the only persons who can modify/edit the posts is the thread or forum moderator.

So if there are no posts by capacitor70 then there never were... or I am very mistaken. ;)
There's lots of YouTube posts by that name though... Is it perhaps someone who posted here
under a different name??

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 07, 2008, 01:24:37 PM
And what the HECK is going on here guys?!

Will those of you that feel the need to produce tons of text on the subjects of semantics,
the preferred interpretation of the term "over unity", and other bull,
please get their butts out of this thread?!

This thread was doing very nicely with Luc and Ossie and a handfull of others actively
experimenting and posting their findings and setups.
It was clear that a somewhat standardised version of the setup and its test results is what
"we" were working towards,
and after that the next step would be testing implementations of the circuit with actual
engines.

Please do not pollute the thread with arguments over what isand is not OU etc.
There's other threads for that discussion.
Thanks.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 07, 2008, 01:33:53 PM
Burn these words into your brain (cut from the Graneau experiment pdf):

Note the big difference between 50 Joules and 10 kilo Joules (10,000 Joules).  Don't miss this point - because that is what the misdirectors want you to lose sight of.  If you are blowing up inverters and using mains AC for brute force - you are mistaken, or are intentionally trying to misdirect research.


Right on Greendoor,

What everyone is missing is that you have to place water IN the spark, not around it. The more I read and see, indicates that what is going on has very little to do with "burning" the water.  The engines that run via Carb. or direct dribbling of water into the intake are drowning in water, and by chance enough gets around or on the plug to obtain the effect.  I suspect that water around the spark is useless.  What is needed is a totally different spark plug/water holder to cause this type of reaction reliably!  To get a 50 J discharge requires 100VDC @ 10,000 mfd....give or take but that is to big an explosion as I don't think many pistons can hold up to a mechanical equivalent pulse of a 10,000 J pulse.....So a smaller pulse is needed, probably in the 5-10 J area.  So back up gang, put your thinking caps on!  It would appear we are NOT burning water as there is little if no heat, we are exploding water and releasing  energy from within as so ably discussed in several post lately!  This also suggest we don't need compression, just conversion from pressure to motion!!!!  Is all of this discussion what Stanley Meyer discovered?  Are we reinventing the wheel!?

Ben

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AhuraMazda on July 07, 2008, 02:03:56 PM
Quite so.
If you think the spark is to start some kind of ignition, you are on the wrong track!.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 07, 2008, 02:16:11 PM
Right on Greendoor,

What everyone is missing is that you have to place water IN the spark, not around it. The more I read and see, indicates that what is going on has very little to do with "burning" the water.  The engines that run via Carb. or direct dribbling of water into the intake are drowning in water, and by chance enough gets around or on the plug to obtain the effect.  I suspect that water around the spark is useless.  What is needed is a totally different spark plug/water holder to cause this type of reaction reliably!  To get a 50 J discharge requires 100VDC @ 10,000 mfd....give or take but that is to big an explosion as I don't think many pistons can hold up to a mechanical equivalent pulse of a 10,000 J pulse.....So a smaller pulse is needed, probably in the 5-10 J area.  So back up gang, put your thinking caps on!  It would appear we are NOT burning water as there is little if no heat, we are exploding water and releasing  energy from within as so ably discussed in several post lately!  This also suggest we don't need compression, just conversion from pressure to motion!!!!  Is all of this discussion what Stanley Meyer discovered?  Are we reinventing the wheel!?

Ben

Ben

Hi Ben and all,

You are 100% correct! I have just spent the last 2 days testing two different engines. A 2 stroke line trimmer engine and a 4 stroke 6.5 HP generator engine. The largest pressure blasts on the piston were observed only when the cylinder gets flooded with water by inserting a tube into the inlet manifold and allowing the water to basically trickle in. Air fuel mixture has very little use so the carbies were useless and required to be removed so I could be sure the liquid water was getting in. At least for the motors I was using. An ultrasonic cool mister was used and pressurised fog into the inlet manifold. This made no diffrence to the pressure power of the spark plug discharges. Only when flooding water was injected into the cylinder and made contact in and around the spark gap did the largest blasts occur. But not large enough to drive the flywheel with any decent power to run. Capacitor discharges of up to 500uf were used.

So much more work to do. Too many variables here, such as how the water may flow in the cylinder and how it winds up making contact with the spark plug. Where the spark plug is located. The orientation of the enigine, cylinder, inlet, outlet, spark plug.....?

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 07, 2008, 03:07:56 PM
Sorry Ossie and greendoor et al,
I am almost sure I didn't quite get the point there,
so forgive me for posting another dumb question :)

But if it is impossible to ignite the water outside of the plasma discharge zone,
then how come people have managed to produce bursts of flame by just
spraying very fine water mist into the spark? The pics I see don't show
the flame only in the spark gap zone, they show large bursts of flame that seem
to follow the water mist spray...

And if it only works inside the plasma discharge zone, then it shouldn't be
possible to ignite water vapour outside it even if the vapour is contained in
an engine cylinder, so that should never work then...? Is that what you're saying?

I bet that's not exactly what you're saying, as both s1r9a9m9's posts spanning
2 years almost as well as Ossie's latest post here are clearly aimed at using
the setup to ignite a water mist inside a cylinder and thus drive the engines pistons.
So I must have misunderstood again... :(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 07, 2008, 03:25:59 PM
I think they're saying it must originate within the zone, and from there it can cascade outwards untill all the energy is dissipated.  I think of it like pool or snooker balls.  It's not breaking the balls, but the energy will transfer from balls that fall within the plasma balls to any others in the locality that they hit, and disrupt the weak bond between individual H2O molecules (inter rather than intra).  If there's nothing in the plasma path to start with then there's a mis-cue, or mis-fire.

Shiver

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 04:01:40 PM
I think they're saying it must originate within the zone, and from there it can cascade outwards untill all the energy is dissipated.  I think of it like pool or snooker balls.  It's not breaking the balls, but the energy will transfer from balls that fall within the plasma balls to any others in the locality that they hit, and disrupt the weak bond between individual H2O molecules (inter rather than intra).  If there's nothing in the plasma path to start with then there's a mis-cue, or mis-fire.

Shiver



Shiver

I agree
In my opinion the  plasma  effect is more than likely OU 

I see  no reason to believe that the  s1r9 engine  burns  the water . 
To me the s1r9 engine  is about  using  an arc  to inject heat into compressed  air
Then   collecting  power  from expansion  . 
The  water just makes the process LOTS more efficient .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 07, 2008, 04:54:46 PM
@Gotoluc
Quote
Where are you allcanadian?.. can you please start a Tesla style topic using this circuit?
LOL, You must have read my mind, I was about to post an easier way to acheive the desired effects----Tesla style. ;D I built your original circuit last night and Qiman's, and it works very well but there are issues. Now consider what is happening in this circuit, an inverter raises a 12v batteries potential to 120v(losses) and is rectified to DC(losses) then charges a capacitor.This capacitor is discharged through the primary of an ignition coil ------ but what happens next? Qiman gave part of the answer ;) The moment the potential from the capacitor reaches the primary of the coil a larger potential is induced in the secondary HV coil. All of you see a spark across the gap but that is only the beginning, Qiman said this is all about "potential" and he is correct. The very moment the HV jumps the arc gap a higher potential appears at both the (-)negative terminal of the primary having an inductance or opposition to current flow and the negative side of the capacitor ;) As such an oscillitory series circuit is formed, the HV appearing behind the capacitor forces another impulse through the capacitor and primary thus the secondary raising potential incrementally. This "appears" to be a single arc across the gap only because the frequency of oscillation is extremely high as such the "qualities" of the arc discharge have changed from what we know. The variables we need be concerned with are potential and frequency of oscillation(wave period)---- this is not "alternating" current it is HV impulsive DC, the flow never reverses but does oscillate within itself, each oscillation raising the potential. You could call it unidirectional RF in which the radiative properties have been expanded. The oscillations produce resonant vibrations within the media and the potential difference tears it apart.
If you want to lose both the inverter and the rectifier to reduce resistance losses you need look no further than Tesla Patent 568177 Ozone generator, an economical and efficient means to charge a capacitor to high potential, the Primary/Secondary is your ignition coil.
Best Regards
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 07, 2008, 05:14:59 PM
Hi Everyone,

Can we PLEASE get off of the "water igniting/burning" or "disassociation of water into HHO" or any of that useless banter NOT RELATIVE TO THIS FORUM!  Does it really matter?  The goal here was to develop and improve a circuit to use as little input energy to drive a piston down using WATER instead of FOSSIL FUELS!

I am not an electrical circuit design person by any means and it is not my forte.  I am degreed in Physics and understand what is really happening here, not that it is really important anyway.  That and 50 cents gets you a bad cup of coffee from a vending machine.

If there was a disassociation of water into HHO and burned, then the "system" would be hot, just like burning fossil fuels or burning ANYTHING.  As evidenced by Luc AND Ossie, the spark plug is barely warm.  The reason is because NOTHING is being ignited or burned!

The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.

This concussion wave can do work by pushing down a piston.  To futher evidence this using Luc and Ossie's experiments, in air alone the plasma arc is notably smaller than when water mist is added.  Luc did get some nice "air only" plasma arcs one day, but then he also said it was raining at the time, which means a lot of humidity or water vapor in the air! 

The HV from the ignition coil instantaneously (or close to it) ionizes the water droplets and when hit with the higher amperage from the rectified AC/inverter part of the circut, is just like Lightening and the air molecules around the water droplet are accelerated at supersonic speeds, hence the loud bang.

Ossie and Luc and anyone else (including me who have done actual experiments) have noticed there are times when the plasma arc action is so great, the reaction quickly "blows out" the plasma "flame" until the next arc.  Again, this is evidence that both the air and water droplets are being pushed rapidly.  AND the spark plug is NOT HOT even after running the tests for 45 minutes or so, as Ossie did.  If you put water on your skin and blow on it, it feels cool because the effect is evaporation!  Are you changing the water into anything other than another form of water?  Are you changing the air you are blowing out?  The obvious answer is NO to both questions!

Bottom line...who cares!  Is this overunity?  No, but again, WHO CARES!  Is the COP > 1 ... WHO CARES!  The idea and FOCUS (let me say this again) FOCUS is to create a circuit that will allow us to REPLACE fossil fuels being burned in any motor/engine with WATER!

Now... can we please get back ON TOPIC, and back to work as a group to accomplish this and stop posting extraneous OFF TOPIC, disruptive and anti-focusing counterproductive points.  There are a million other forums out there to discuss these "other" valuable, but off topic ideas and discussions.

We need to all work together to make this method work in the most energy efficient way to get off of fossil fuels.  The sooner the better, not only for the immediate personal economic reasons for us all, but the far reaching aspects of saving our planet with a ZERO environmental polluting system!  Gasoline by me is at $4.29 per gallon and rising.

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 07, 2008, 06:38:39 PM
@geovel56
Quote
The HV from the ignition coil instantaneously (or close to it) ionizes the water droplets and when hit with the higher amperage from the rectified AC/inverter part of the circut, is just like Lightening and the air molecules around the water droplet are accelerated at supersonic speeds, hence the loud bang.
This has been covered, the effect is produced even when the inverter/rectifier is disconnected from the circuit hence there is no "high amperage" required.

Quote
The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.
There is also an electrostatic standing wave produced preceeding the sonic boom this standing wave extending hundreds of miles past where the thunder could be heard. Which raises the question as to whether the "boom" is produced by electrostatic forces or a pressure wave or both.
We are hear to learn and seek understanding, I think everyones opinion and perspective should be heard, that is a part of the learning process the professionals of science have yet to understand. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 07, 2008, 06:53:25 PM
@geovel56:

Aren't you a being a bit arrogant. Your posted sounded more like "you people need to do what I like, so stop talking about things I don't like" Anyone who contributed both on the circuit or engine experiments is as valuable. You need to respect that and not get mad just because you don't like it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 07, 2008, 06:58:41 PM
this thread gets better and better ALL CANADIAN  can you post the more efficient circuit? Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 07, 2008, 07:00:19 PM
I`m just an armchair reader here, it seems to me rather than trying to get this to work with a normal ICE, which can difficult to adjust, some sort of simple piston arrangement, that would be easy to construct out of readily available parts  (maybe made of transparent materials?) would be better, so that the pressure wave could be measured and adjustments made to maximize it.

A flywheel or spring for the return stroke could be added later.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 07, 2008, 07:09:34 PM
This has been covered, the effect is produced even when the inverter/rectifier is disconnected from the circuit hence there is no "high amperage" required.

In the circuit where the inverter/rectifier is disconnected, the LV from the cap and the HV from the Ignition coil was passed at the same time.

Even with my large cap at 690MFD using 190V, when there is no LV all you get is a thin spark.

With the LV, HV and no water, it gets a half inch white/blue plasma ball.

With the LV, HV and water, it gets a 3/4 inch white/blue/orange plasma ball.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 07, 2008, 07:11:46 PM
 
Quote
We are hear to learn and seek understanding, I think everyones opinion and perspective should be heard, that is a part of the learning process the professionals of science have yet to understand.


 allcanadian, I think a different thread should be used to learn what the professionals of science already know.

 Please let these guys finish what they started this thread for. It was started as a way to simplify a circuit they have been designing to produce the intense spark needed to create the effect that is needed to use water to run fuel based motors on. They have already created the effect with circuits, now let them finish simplifying it.
 
This thread was not set up to find out why or how it creates the effect, it was set up to simplify a circuit they have already created that creates a effect they have already created.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kenbo0422 on July 07, 2008, 07:25:38 PM
I haven't been on here for over two years.  Glad to see it hasn't gotten stagnant.  Anyway...

I have skimmed the topic and came to the last page to discover what I thought was going on... no ignition.  That's perfectly OK.  It still works.

On another line, has anyone thought of using the Krupa design in the plug part????  It's supposed to spread the plasma much better, which may be all you need to gain the pressure output on the piston to make it move with some authority.

 ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 07, 2008, 07:30:05 PM
A simple suggestion for those trying to get a motor to run. What if you remove the spark plug ground tab and just use the piston as the 'ground tab'. I would think that this would create an increasing electric arc size as the piston goes down from TDC and would help the water 'ignite, burn, turn to steam, whatever'  to push the piston down. Why confine the electrical arc to a small predetermined gap. I know when I arc weld I have to get the arc started by being very close to the item to be welded but once I get an arc started I can draw the arc back a fair amount. Seems the same idea would hold for a piston engine electrical arc. If the piston can withstand a gas explosion then a electrical arc should not effect it. Now you may have to use a slightly longer plug just as long as it does not touch the piston top but I think that this may be very effective in always getting a great electrical arc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 07, 2008, 07:45:05 PM
I have to defer to the guys that understand electronics here, but however I look at it, more important than the circuit is working out what is going on here?  If we put in 100w electrical, do we get out something more than 100w chemical/kinetic/potential?  If not, then what is the purpose of the thread?  Making fireworks which are fun but of no real value?  I admit I'm sitting back waiting for the electronics guys to establish how to isolate the HV/HC circuits in order that I get get on with what I can do which is building something that can use this circuit.  I'm not going to be using any 2 or 4 stroke engines either, it will be a static chamber with a couple of one way valves and the recipient will be a tesla turbine.  Maybe that's no good for running a conventional car, but it will increase understanding substantially.

More important than the circuit is understanding what the process is. From there we can go backwards and design a circuit, and forwards and design a recipient of the energy released.  If that's not clear to one and all then we're in a whirlpool.

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 07, 2008, 08:04:25 PM
For those who don't know and those who have forgotten....

S1R made a comment on one of Ossies youtube videos about being close but only being at about 10% power. He said it should be such an arc that it knocks the spark plug off the table. I think we need a huge plasma arc to get this to work in a motor and that means more power. How he's doing it with just a 400 watt inverter I haven't a clue but I think that's the key, a HUGE plasma arc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 07, 2008, 08:39:48 PM
new plug...thanks to gettinwet for this one http://e3sparkplugs.com/diamondfire.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 07, 2008, 08:59:03 PM
@geovel56
Does it matter if this is overunity or COP>1?
YES, it has to be, if it isn't, then using an electric motor would be better.
If it is, let's say only 40% efficient, you need many batteries for not so many miles.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: springfield on July 07, 2008, 10:28:02 PM

If there was a disassociation of water into HHO and burned, then the \\\"system\\\" would be hot, just like burning fossil fuels or burning ANYTHING.  As evidenced by Luc AND Ossie, the spark plug is barely warm.  The reason is because NOTHING is being ignited or burned!

The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.

This concussion wave can do work by pushing down a piston...

@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 07, 2008, 10:35:05 PM
Hi all!
I realised that most people here clever enough to center on what is going on and pay little attention to armchair semantic expert engineers.
I am also an engineer, after 30 years I forgot almost everything, but what I learned is to see, analise, put my hands on the bench and confirm if it works or not, then you gan give an oppinion on your experience but no much more.

Any expert that says something is impossible is most times wrong, so dont be affected by any kind of expert violent opposition, paper is the best support for everything but the truth, that rely on facts.


Concerning power, I believe most we are giving enough power yet, in fact perhaps a little more than enough.

I got brilliant sparks, more than seen on videos (i hope videos dont do justice) but after some really nice I got power enough to melt the plug, the inverter, the bridge, and the diodes :D.

More fresh parts soon, as well as sunglasses and some bulbs on the circuit.
I realised that inverter is able to deliver enough power to melt the plug and create a metal bridge between electrodes.

Protect the circuit and yourself, there is some energy going around, and excuse if mispelling anything, I can-t see the screen nor the keyboard, (sunglasses next day)  :D.


A question
Wath is the krup plug design mentioned by kenpo???

cheers
Ri

The most difficult to learn is how much we ignore and how little we know.
Sorry for my English.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 10:51:21 PM
Hi all!
I realised that most people here clever enough to center on what is going on and pay little attention to armchair semantic expert engineers.
I am also an engineer, after 30 years I forgot almost everything, but what I learned is to see, analise, put my hands on the bench and confirm if it works or not, then you gan give an oppinion on your experience but no much more.

Any expert that says something is impossible is most times wrong, so dont be affected by any kind of expert violent opposition, paper is the best support for everything but the truth, that rely on facts.



Welcome to  our little corner of the  forum  Ricardoch

You  got my  respect when you  wrote what is quoted above .

 :) :)



I look forward to  seeing  what   you do when your new parts arrive 


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on July 07, 2008, 11:06:23 PM

A question
Wath is the krup plug design mentioned by kenpo???

cheers
Ri


He is referring to the FireStorm Sparkplug:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Firestorm_spark_plug

Don't bother calling the phone number mentioned in the peswiki article from the link above that is located in the 586 area code as the plugs cannot be found there.  Somebody must have played a trick on this guy as he gets upset and slams the phone down when asking about the plugs. 

"The new "Master Distributor" is Yee Automotive. They are located at: 16541 East Ten Mile Road. Eastpointe, Michigan 48021-1192. Their phone number is (586) xxx-xxxx"  This is not a true statement.

FireStorm's Capabilities First, let's look at what Krupa's FireStorm spark plugs give an internal combustion engine:

More horsepower;
44?50% increase in mpg;
Dramatic decrease in emissions.
Second, let's see what FireStorm plugs eliminate:

Smog pump;
Catalytic converter;
Radio frequency interference (RFI) and the use of resistors in the centre electrode;
Gap growth;
Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems;
Misfire/hesitation/detonation/stutter and stumble.
How, you may ask, is all this achieved? In a word, plasma. The revolutionary design of FireStorm spark plugs creates an electric plasma that fills the entire combustion chamber like a firestorm. It allows you to take an internal combustion engine from the standard 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio to an incredibly lean 24:1. At this ratio, all the air/fuel mixture is burned much more efficiently without increasing heat, thus giving an engine more power and fuel economy while creating much less pollution.

IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 08, 2008, 12:16:41 AM
Luc started this thread for the purpose of trying to determine what was in S1R's magic silver can when he posted his video of successfully running an 18 HP Briggs & Straton engine on TAP WATER alone.  Luc also was given Moderator privileges to weed out extraneous posts that were not related to the primary goal of trying to develop a simple circuit to create a plasma arc.

Ossie, Luc, Capacitor70 and others have successfully developed simple circuits.  Now we need to see if any of them work on an engine.  Capacitor70 showed his circuit did work when his motorcycle/scooter kickstarted and ran for a short period of time on water alone.

The theories and opinions on whether this is overunity is NOT the point of this particular thread.  Shiver, Broli and a few others seem intent on giving their opinions about how they think things work which does nothing other than distract the work that is being done by those that were here following LUC's wishes on this thread.

Shiver, Broli, and the other "crapsters" as Dr. S so eloquently and perfectly phrased it... you're entitled to your opinion and like opinions, they are like butts.... everyone has one and they smell bad.  If you have nothing to add to this particular thread in developing and enhancing the circuit necessary to produce the plasma arc, AND help this forum continue to the next step in getting an engine to run on water by this method, kindly read along and feel free to follow this thread, but off topic opinions aren't welcome and only serve to "UNFOCUS" Luc's vision and mission for THIS THREAD.  Stop posting BS not related to what this thread was created for!  We are trying to get a vehicle to run using water INSTEAD of fossil fuels.  Why does this seem to be so hard to comprehend without pointless banter?

Enough already!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: caz on July 08, 2008, 12:29:06 AM
The closest thing to a Firestorm spark plug that I have found on the market is,
http://www.extremespark.com/index.html
I'm waiting on mine to come in so I can test them. Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 08, 2008, 01:07:30 AM
@All
I use this simple circuit to charge a 1uF/1200v capacitor to 250v with a single quick press of switch(SW).It doesn't get any cheaper or more simple than that.You can use any diode rated above the voltage you want, the transformer secondaries act as an inductor and I have charged my cap to over 1000v by using a HV microwave transformer as an inductor. Just think 12 volts directly to almost any voltage you desire with a few switch closures and SW can be replaced with a relay, there is no more efficient way to charge a capacitor I know of. What you do with the charged capacitor is up to you. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 01:23:03 AM
The closest thing to a Firestorm spark plug that I have found on the market is,
http://www.extremespark.com/index.html
I'm waiting on mine to come in so I can test them. Chris

Chris

They   look good .
They  don't  list  their  prices on their website
Do you mind  telling us  how  much they  charged you?

They  don;t say  they have resistors ......but there is  what  they call a pressure seal ......or something like that.
They say it is   made of  carbon and  glass fiber .  .........I wonder  if   they have a non  resistor version . 
 IF  so  it could  be a  big help here.

 .   
gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 01:35:38 AM
Chris

They   look good .
They  don't  list  their  prices on their website
Do you mind  telling us  how  much they  charged you?

They  don;t say  they have resistors ......but there is  what  they call a pressure seal ......or something like that.
They say it is   made of  carbon and  glass fiber .  .........I wonder  if   they have a non  resistor version . 
 IF  so  it could  be a  big help here.

 .   
gary

They are custom made using other plug, they sell it 20$ each, In my opinion the pulstar plug are yeah better.

I asked to pulstar if they plan to upgadre there plug with firestorm, see the reply

Quote
There is a reason all  current sophisticated engine platforms use a fine wire electrode. This is opposite technology. Large round electrodes increase cycle-to-cycle variability in ionization voltage resulting in inconsistent combustion quality. I do not want to get into a technology issue but will say we have tested all forms of electrodes and gap architecture to discover that delivered electrical power is much more contributory to combustion quality.

Thank you for your time and comments
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 01:37:09 AM
@All
I use this simple circuit to charge a 1uF/1200v capacitor to 250v with a single quick press of switch(SW).It doesn't get any cheaper or more simple than that.You can use any diode rated above the voltage you want, the transformer secondaries act as an inductor and I have charged my cap to over 1000v by using a HV microwave transformer as an inductor. Just think 12 volts directly to almost any voltage you desire with a few switch closures and SW can be replaced with a relay, there is no more efficient way to charge a capacitor I know of. What you do with the charged capacitor is up to you. ;)

Allcanadian

A  couple of  questions
Does the  secondary somehow control  the  voltage that  it will  charge to ?

Does  the  size  of the  transformer  matter ?

I have a big   transformer  from an old  UPS  just sitting here waiting to be used for something .


gary   

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 01:59:48 AM
They are custom made using other plug, they sell it 20$ each, In my opinion the pulstar plug are yeah better.

I asked to pulstar if they plan to upgadre there plug with firestorm, see the reply


Thanks  TheOne

2  concerns  I have with the  pulstar 
Will it  handle   the inverter  current?   The  diagram shows the  pulse circuit  in line  with the  center  conductor .

About   the  gap
Their   Fac  sheet  says

Q: What gap setting do I use for Pulstar??

A: If your vehicle manual calls for a gap less than .040" then use the factory recommended settings. Under no circumstances should you set the gap to greater the .040", regardless of the manual setting. Back to top

Could  it  be that to big of a gap  causes  higher  voltage in the plug and could   burn  the pulse circuit out?

I think I  like the Torque Master better
I also think that  the  Torque Master design  might  help    with  oil  fouling like   Capicator   had trouble with

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kenbo0422 on July 08, 2008, 02:13:45 AM
The Krupa plug is NOT a Firestorm.  The original design was to change the center electrode into a hemisphere and surround it with a crossing arc (two arcs crossed equidistant from the center electrode).  This required a boost in the electrical system as we are describing here.  The result of the design is that the plug produces a large even plasma effect rather than a concentrated arc.  When used with conventional fuel engines, the engine runs cooler, the emissions decrease (better burn) and a significant increase in power (again, better burn from initiation to total consumption).  It didn't catch on in this form because nobody was designing engines with this kind of electrical boost and the manufacturers of plugs weren't going to retool to try it out (even though spark plug manufacturing is yawningly simple -- they were basically lazy and if it didn't turn a buck immediately, to hell with it...).  The Firestorm is a conventional plug design with very little if any of the original Krupa plasma plug design.

Again, has this been tested?  The mods to a plug can be done at home.  I'm not sure of the metal used in the electrodes, but it would be wise to choose the same materials, just in case.  Although, the lesser heat signature seems to point to being able to use more common steels.

I've been busy the last few years.  I learned to work metal in a home hobby shop with a mini lathe and mini mill.  Its my retirement toys.  The mods for this don't even require these kinds of tools.  I'm expecting to see a larger cracking of the water droplet simply because of the expanded plasma.  I must say, that even if it isn't overunity or =1, we have an engine, so to speak, that runs more on water than on fuel.  Imagine this, a gallon of fuel at $15.00 and 10 gals. of water and being able to drive all week.  That is still damned significant.  Consider it a byproduct of your research, throw it out to the masses, and continue research. Don't sit on it because it hasn't come to the final desired outcome.  Patent it if you wish and make the patent public property so the greedy ones don't sit on it.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 02:16:58 AM
Will it  handle   the inverter  current?   The  diagram shows the  pulse circuit  in line  with the  center  conductor .

Good question, its something I think they dont even have an answer. I sent the question I should receive an answer by tomorow :)

The only thing that bother me is 20$ for a plug made from other is kinda a lot, someone will need to try with one plug  (Torque Master) to see if this is a good option.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gettinwet on July 08, 2008, 02:19:00 AM
new plug...thanks to gettinwet for this one http://e3sparkplugs.com/diamondfire.htm

I forgot my questions in the other thread were pertinate here as well so I'll ask. Has anyone tried aircraft style spark plugs? They do not have the standard "L" shaped electrode as most automotive plugs. Also, Mercury Marine uses a similar design plug in their old thunderbolt ignition engines. I will get the AC part number tomorrow when I get to the shop. Short of combing back thru the whole thread, has anyone mentioned the HV output voltages of the ignition coils being used? Since I do not totally understand all of the electrical happenings with the circuit you guys are using I must ask, What would happen to the spark intensity if a higher voltage ignition coil were used? Pardon my questions but I know engines not electronics.

Thanks,
Wet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 02:35:13 AM
I forgot my questions in the other thread were pertinate here as well so I'll ask. Has anyone tried aircraft style spark plugs? They do not have the standard "L" shaped electrode as most automotive plugs. Also, Mercury Marine uses a similar design plug in their old thunderbolt ignition engines. I will get the AC part number tomorrow when I get to the shop. Short of combing back thru the whole thread, has anyone mentioned the HV output voltages of the ignition coils being used? Since I do not totally understand all of the electrical happenings with the circuit you guys are using I must ask, What would happen to the spark intensity if a higher voltage ignition coil were used? Pardon my questions but I know engines not electronics.

Thanks,
Wet

This plug looks like the haloplug http://www.haloplug.com/
I used this plug on my last vehicle (jeep) and I see the big difference in the engine.

But I still think pulstar are making a better spark
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 08, 2008, 02:48:11 AM
@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike
.

That is right.
 We must test, how big the overunity factor is, otherwise if the process is not overunity
it makes more sense to use an electric motor to drive a car.

One easy thing to measure it would be in some kind of electrial plasma canon.

Just put the sparkplug into a iron tube and take a 1 Kg iron weight for example,that
fits well sliding into the tube.

Then use water with the sparkplug and a defined charged capacitor voltage
to fire the High Voltage and discharge the lower voltage cap.
Then you can see how high the 1 Kg weight will be shot out into the air.
Measure this height difference and measure the voltage difference on the
cap and you can calculate the energies used and got out.
So potential height energy is:
Epot= m x g x h
Epot= potential height energy
m= mass
g= 9.81 earth acceleration
h= height difference

Electrical input energy can be measured at the cap:

Ecap= 0.5 x C x V^2

Ecap= stored electrical energy
C= capacitance in Farad
V= Voltage at the cap.

So for an example:

If you charge up a 100 uF cap to 400 Volts, you have
Ecap= 0.5 x 0.0001 F x (400 Volts)^2=
8 Joules ( Wattsseconds) of energy stored inside the cap.

Now calculate the height you must shoot the 1 Kg weight up to be
at least unity COP=1.

Ecap=Epot=8 Joules= 1 Kg x 9.81 x height.
So height = 8 Joules / 9.81= 81.5 cm

So you have to shoot up the 1 Kg weight more than  81.5 cm to be OverUnity !

I hope somebody can show this.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: caz on July 08, 2008, 02:53:01 AM
Gary, I bought a set for my 91' Honda Civic Hatchback 1.5L, $11.00 each $7.00 shipping. Had them quote a set for my 88' ford 5.0L V8 F150 $7.00 each. I don't know at this point if they are resistor plugs or not, but I think that they are a small enough company to build what ever we need. I will let you know for sure when I receive them. As an Automotive Machinist with 40 plus years of learning, 2 stroke weedeaters/ chainsaws, 4 stroke singles to V12's, 3208 CAT diesel's I'm excited to test these with this new circut. Out of respect for Luc, Ossie, Xbox and anyone else that has actually done testing and attempeted to apply this concepet to an ICE I have been limiting my comments to this thread in order to not muck it up. I must however interject a comment on the issue of timing. With HHO you must retard the timing to only 8-10 degrees ATDC because of the rapid combustion of the mixture in the combustion chamber. Water by itself won't produce a faster flame front than HHO so I suggest keeping your timing closer to the 8-10 degree so as not to waste critical degrees on the power stroke.
Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lasher23 on July 08, 2008, 03:06:38 AM
Hello all,

I've been following this discussion since the beginning. I'm not an electronics expert, but I replicated the circuit and had my spark-plug delivering a nice fat arc. Anyway, I was wondering if this setup could be run from anything other than an inverter. I borrowed the inverter I was using and it's gone now. I cannot afford one and I'd rather not give up. Could I feed 120 from the wall socket straight into my rectifier for testing purposes? I hate the thought of giving up now and could use some advice.

Thanks all and keep up the research, someone will crack this yet.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 08, 2008, 03:29:08 AM
@ resonanceman
Quote
A  couple of  questions
Does the  secondary somehow control  the  voltage that  it will  charge to ?
Does  the  size  of the  transformer  matter ?
I have a big   transformer  from an old  UPS  just sitting here waiting to be used for something .
gary   


-- I am using the transformer secondary only, wire wrapped around an iron core is called an inductor because it has the property of self-inductance. The more windings the greater the self-inductance and proportionately a greater induced voltage, a 120v winding will consistently generate three times its rated voltage when the magnetic field collapses, that is around 360v maximum.
-- No,  the only requirement is the rated amperage and voltage.

The whole point in posting this circuit is that quite frankly the inverters everyone is using are fragile and not very efficient, the circuit I posted will take more abuse than most of you can dish out if built with high rated but relatively cheap components. I built my circuit for under $10 and it can generate over 1000v pulses to charge a capacitor however for most puposes I use the 120v inductor for around 300v--- the rating for most of my larger capacitors.
This circuit is the topic in a thread called "the Tesla project" under Tesla technologies on this site.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 03:43:55 AM
.

That is right.
 We must test, how big the overunity factor is, otherwise if the process is not overunity
it makes more sense to use an electric motor to drive a car.



Stefan

I don't  agree

The  question is not if it is over unity ..........the question is if we can get it  to work .

I  think it  has  been  shown that  an engine  can  will kick  over   running  on only water 
There is  little  evidence so far that   the  engine can be  controled  like  a convention ICE

As I see it  worst case ....... we   develop  a system to run an engine  steady state  ....
With this  we could   drive a generator   for power in  our homes  or   possibly  use it  in a hybrid car . 

It doesn't  matter how much water it takes to run .
It  doesn't  really matter  how efficient  it is .   .........if it runs it is a GIANT  step in the right  direction .
Efficiency  will  come in time .

gary

Edit

I can see that some will  say that   the  efficiency  of the basic process is  what is important  and   needs to be measured .
If we measure it now we only learn  how efficient it is at our CURRENT level of understanding  . 
A change  in  voltage,   current,  frequency .........maybe even  geometry  can all affect  the  overall  efficiency 



gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 08, 2008, 03:52:29 AM
I am not an electrical circuit design person by any means and it is not my forte.  I am degreed in Physics and understand what is really happening here, not that it is really important anyway.  That and 50 cents gets you a bad cup of coffee from a vending machine.

If there was a disassociation of water into HHO and burned, then the "system" would be hot, just like burning fossil fuels or burning ANYTHING.  As evidenced by Luc AND Ossie, the spark plug is barely warm.  The reason is because NOTHING is being ignited or burned!

The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.

This concussion wave can do work by pushing down a piston.  To futher evidence this using Luc and Ossie's experiments, in air alone the plasma arc is notably smaller than when water mist is added.  Luc did get some nice "air only" plasma arcs one day, but then he also said it was raining at the time, which means a lot of humidity or water vapor in the air! 

The HV from the ignition coil instantaneously (or close to it) ionizes the water droplets and when hit with the higher amperage from the rectified AC/inverter part of the circut, is just like Lightening and the air molecules around the water droplet are accelerated at supersonic speeds, hence the loud bang.

I don't understand why this MISINFORMATION about current following up the HV jump keeps popping up! lol I explained ACCURATELY what is happening here and nobody has it right.
Watch tihs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

The 2nd vid is an ISOLATED capacitor to PROVE there is NO current from an inverter than can possibly jump a gap when it is ISOLATED FROM THE CIRCUIT. These ideas I see are throwing people down the wrong track of what is happening and unless people are using the correct model, it will negatively influence how you approach your enhancements to what you are doing to make it better.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2008, 03:52:39 AM
@GotolucLOL, You must have read my mind, I was about to post an easier way to acheive the desired effects----Tesla style. ;D I built your original circuit last night and Qiman's, and it works very well but there are issues. Now consider what is happening in this circuit, an inverter raises a 12v batteries potential to 120v(losses) and is rectified to DC(losses) then charges a capacitor.This capacitor is discharged through the primary of an ignition coil ------ but what happens next? Qiman gave part of the answer ;) The moment the potential from the capacitor reaches the primary of the coil a larger potential is induced in the secondary HV coil. All of you see a spark across the gap but that is only the beginning, Qiman said this is all about "potential" and he is correct. The very moment the HV jumps the arc gap a higher potential appears at both the (-)negative terminal of the primary having an inductance or opposition to current flow and the negative side of the capacitor ;) As such an oscillitory series circuit is formed, the HV appearing behind the capacitor forces another impulse through the capacitor and primary thus the secondary raising potential incrementally. This "appears" to be a single arc across the gap only because the frequency of oscillation is extremely high as such the "qualities" of the arc discharge have changed from what we know. The variables we need be concerned with are potential and frequency of oscillation(wave period)---- this is not "alternating" current it is HV impulsive DC, the flow never reverses but does oscillate within itself, each oscillation raising the potential. You could call it unidirectional RF in which the radiative properties have been expanded. The oscillations produce resonant vibrations within the media and the potential difference tears it apart.
If you want to lose both the inverter and the rectifier to reduce resistance losses you need look no further than Tesla Patent 568177 Ozone generator, an economical and efficient means to charge a capacitor to high potential, the Primary/Secondary is your ignition coil.
Best Regards

Hi allcanadian, thank you for answering my call ;)

AT EVERYONE In case some of you do not know user allcanadian... he is very very knowledgeable of Tesla's circuits and is a great asset for us to have here with us. I ask you all to be respectful towards his advice and to do the tests that he will recommend since they will help us all to understand what this circuit does. You cannot get these teachings even in the best of Universities, so pay attention and do the tests before you ask or comment anything.

@allcanadian, the floor is yours. ...Let me know if there is anything I can do that could help you with the moderator privileges I have since I don't know much about what I can all do with it

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 08, 2008, 03:55:31 AM
Hello all,

I've been following this discussion since the beginning. I'm not an electronics expert, but I replicated the circuit and had my spark-plug delivering a nice fat arc. Anyway, I was wondering if this setup could be run from anything other than an inverter. I borrowed the inverter I was using and it's gone now. I cannot afford one and I'd rather not give up. Could I feed 120 from the wall socket straight into my rectifier for testing purposes? I hate the thought of giving up now and could use some advice.

Thanks all and keep up the research, someone will crack this yet.



I was feeding from a wall socket but unless you've got some big diodes they will blow after a few arcs. I used an old heating element I had laying around as a resistor to limit the current. You could put a light bulb in series to do the same. Be careful, that outlet can put out alot more punch than the inverter. Be sure you have everything insulated good if yer using a metal table, I found out the hard way about that. I had one component laying on the bare metal table and I think it fed back thru a small drill press sitting on the table, not good.

I've got 10 big diodes that my dad took out of some welders, They are rated at around 100-125 amps I believe. Not sure on the voltage but the ten I have aren't rated for enough voltage to allow the circuit to work or I'd use them with the wall outlet or the biggest inverter I could find just to see how big of an arc I could get.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2008, 03:56:36 AM
I`m just an armchair reader here, it seems to me rather than trying to get this to work with a normal ICE, which can difficult to adjust, some sort of simple piston arrangement, that would be easy to construct out of readily available parts  (maybe made of transparent materials?) would be better, so that the pressure wave could be measured and adjustments made to maximize it.

A flywheel or spring for the return stroke could be added later.

Hi Lakes, thanks for the excellent suggestion.

I know I can get Lexan in a tube and I think also in rod. We can turn a few groves in the rod and use rubber O rings and a little oil and we have a clear Lexan combustion chamber. We can have it vertical with the spark plug at bottom and add metal weights on top of the rod or a spring so it can compress and see what is going on under pressure. I would also like to test it under vacuum.

What do you all think of this idea? please input if you have a better setup idea or anything that would be useful to know.

Thanks again Lakes.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 08, 2008, 03:57:16 AM


Hi witty guys,

Have you noticed that Nikola Tesla did not use HV diodes?
Why? Perhaps because such devices were not available.  ;D
He used huge impedance coils.
These coils were used in different ways:

The first way was to use a coil as an 'energy storing device'.
For example: US609250. Electrical Igniter For Gaz Engines

(http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/Tesla_609250_Explan.jpg)

From:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf)

The second way was to use the impedance of this coil as a diode =
an high self induction device.
For example: US568177. Apparatus for producing Ozone

(http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/Tesla_568177_Explan.jpg)

From:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf)

This Uranian Genius (beware: Astrology!  :P) had the capacity of over simplifying
things. He used, for example, an electric motor as a mechanical switch and also as
a coil. US568177

Have you also ever try to 'redraw' some of his patent figures in a
more convenient/logical/QiMan way?

Off Topic: frankly, I have a very simple mind. I used to be a computer programmer.
IMHO, computer programming is, generally, a linear way of thinking.
So, I do not undersand how some of you could really figure out how some
circuits could be working with such exotic way of drawings...

In topic: I have all the stuff to reproduce the GotoLuc experiments.
So , please, count me in.

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 04:21:49 AM
I don't understand why this MISINFORMATION about current following up the HV jump keeps popping up! lol I explained ACCURATELY what is happening here and nobody has it right.
Watch tihs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

The 2nd vid is an ISOLATED capacitor to PROVE there is NO current from an inverter than can possibly jump a gap when it is ISOLATED FROM THE CIRCUIT. These ideas I see are throwing people down the wrong track of what is happening and unless people are using the correct model, it will negatively influence how you approach your enhancements to what you are doing to make it better.

Hi quiman,

Please see my previous posts as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072

These circuits simply allow the low voltage high current from the charged capacitor to discharge through the ionised air that the HV spark creates. The LV cannot ionised the air because the voltage is too low. When air is ionised, it's resistance is lowered dramatically allowing the LV and current from the capacitor to discharge through it.

This is completely analogous to what occurs in a xenon flash tube. The 300 or so volts sitting across the xenon tube is not enough to ionise the xenon gas and discharge the capacitor current via the tube. But when a HV trigger pulse is generated from a trigger transformer and directed to the gas in the tube, the xenon gas ionises and as such it's resistance drops allowing the 300V capacitor energy to flow through it which results in a bright flash from the tube. This is exactly what we are doing here with these circuits  but instead, the air is our xenon gas and an ignition coil is our trigger transformer.

As far as the water explosions are concerned, what is new here is how such a simple, and now, well understood circuit can create such a plasma discharge in air so easily that it causes liquid water to explode when it comes into contact with the plasma discharge.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 08, 2008, 04:34:33 AM
Shiver, Broli, and the other "crapsters" as Dr. S so eloquently and perfectly phrased it... <snip>...If you have nothing to add to this particular thread in developing and enhancing the circuit necessary to produce the plasma arc,... <snip>...but off topic opinions aren't welcome and only serve to "UNFOCUS" Luc's vision and mission for THIS THREAD.  Stop posting BS not related to what this thread was created for!  <snip...

If it's about building the circuit then why the talk of engines?

Okay I'll sit out, but I think you're missing out on a valuable resource.  I'm just saying that as an R&D exercise it's all over the place, and everything needs addressing and quantifying, but there's an optimal order to that.  Foundations first.

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 08, 2008, 04:56:07 AM
@geovel56
Does it matter if this is overunity or COP>1?
YES, it has to be, if it isn't, then using an electric motor would be better.
If it is, let's say only 40% efficient, you need many batteries for not so many miles.

Alan,
OK, then take your motor out of your car and put an electric motor in, or continue with this shortsided banter and keep paying $4.35 per gallon (and on the rise) for gasoline.

@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike

Mike,
Yes there is much more to it than that.  I was just trying to keep it in a simple conceptual form as to what happens in the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) running on water with a plasma arc as opposed to gasoline with an ordinary ignition coil spark, but again... It Doesn't Matter. 

I certainly am NOT mistaken about how an ICE uses gasoline or diesel to make it run.  This thread was created by Luc to get us all to work together to come up with a low energy input circuit to yield a strong plasma arc.  From there,  we can use water instead of gasoline or diesel. 

So far, once the strong plasma arc has been applied inside an engine, others that have already been successful have noted the timing had to be retarded by as much as 35 degrees, the air/fuel mixture had to be richer (more water) than with gasoline, the carb jets have to be bigger than they are when running on gasoline (to allow more water in), and the overall power from the car is reduced slightly. 

Personally, I don't care if my top speed on a gasoline run engine was 125 mph, and with water is reduced to only 90 mph.  There isn't anywhere I can drive in the USA that fast anyway without breaking the speed limit laws!  I certainly would much rather fill up my tank using a garden hose than at a gas station, especially at $4.35 per gallon (today's price near me)!

Supposedly, S1R has done this with his '78 El Camino.  He went 2 jet sizes bigger than the standard jets in a stock carb on his 350 Chevy El Camino engine.  He retarded the timing 35 degrees so it fired after top dead center, and supposedly has driven this car for 3 years now and over 30,000 miles.

He did produce a YouTube video recently, where he was running a Briggs and Straton 18 HP engine on only tap water.  Capacitor70 has successfully started (and ran for a short period of time) his motorcycle/scooter engine (kickstart) and produced a video on YouTube.  JCBX from Denmark has successfully started and ran his Volvo on tap water and produced a YouTube video, and I saw one yesterday, also from the group I belong to on Yahoo, I believe his name is Dreamyears or something like that.

The bottom line is Luc, also part of the same Yahoo group I belong to, decided after S1R posted his success on the Briggs and YouTube video, but wouldn't list his parts nor divulge his circuit, Luc came up with one himself, and started THIS THREAD.  He asked a few of us from the Yahoo group to join here in developing the most critical part of running a car on tap water only (no hydrolysis etc.) which we did join in here together for a united group effort and keeping EVERYTHING PUBLIC DOMAIN for everyone to share and reap the benefits thereof!

The most difficult part over the last 3 years in the Yahoo group was trying to get S1R to list his parts and circuit schematic.  He sort of did, but much of it was wrong and wouldn't work and really couldn't explain most of it.  Others in that group who were electronics experts, tinkerers, scientists etc, all pulled together to try and figure out what S1R supposedly did with the El Camino.

Luc was motivated by S1R's video, and the fact S1R wouldn't divulge his parts list or circuit (and still hasn't after 2 or 3 weeks now), and actually hid the circuit in a silver painted  (what looks like a plastic butter or margarine tub) and Luc intuitively figured, "he's hiding it, and it's small, so it must really be simple."  Luc then came up with his first workable circuit to create a plasma arc on a spark plug, started this thread for EVERYONE to try to work together to this end, and once accomplished, move on to making a car run on water.

That has been, and IS the purpose of this thread from its inception.  Everything else is extraneous, although good information potentially, but not what this thread is about. 

Is an ICE (internal combustion engine) overunity... No!  Is it efficient... No!  Is the COP > 1... No! and WHO CARES.  We are all driving them and spending more at the gas pumps than we EVER have historically and it's going to go higher... much higher, PLUS ICE's are polluting our planet.

A car that runs on water using an ICE will NOT be overunity, simply because of the inefficiency of an ICE... again, who cares!  A car that runs on water is 100% pollution free however, and WE ALL SHOULD CARE ABOUT THAT!

Our collective goal is to rid us ALL of our dependence on fossil fuels and use something that literally costs us nothing to obtain (rainwater, pond/lake water, etc.) or very little cost as in tap water from our garden hoses. 

That was Luc's idea for this thread, and I for one, am 100% behind it.  But the FOCUS must remain and not deviate from the first task at hand.

I hope everyone is now caught up as to what this thread is about and where we plan to go with it.  Thanks Luc for trying to provide a totally Focused group here.  Unfortunately, no thread is without the "crapsters" that talk and don't care what a given thread is about, nor do they even take the time to read though it from the beginning to find out what its about.  They just want to talk. 

It just makes it harder to stay on task, PLUS weeding through all the off topic posts makes it more difficult to actually get to the posts with breakthroughs, new developments and ways to improve what we are attempting to do here.

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bw on July 08, 2008, 05:09:05 AM
I haven't read every post yet but on page 16 some folks were having trouble getting engines to run without kick back on the piston.  Try to find a way to retard the engine spark timing several degrees.  The kickback is from pre-detonation.  Advance the engine timing so the spark occurs well after the piston reaches top dead center and begins to travel downward.  Pre=detonation occurs when the spark occurs too far before t.d.c.   On older engines timing is adjusted by loosening the distributor and turning one direction or the other to advance or retard while watching the mark with a timing light.  I have no idea how to adjust newer engines timing setting.  Hydrogen burns differently than gasoline and will fire much faster so the engine timing should be adjusted to avoid damage. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 08, 2008, 06:10:38 AM
@Gotoluc
Quote
Hi allcanadian, thank you for answering my call

Oh crap, you know I don't perform well under stress :D

@NerzhDishual
Quote
Have you also ever try to 'redraw' some of his patent figures in a
more convenient/logical/QiMan way?
Yes, I have below and in an earlier post the cap charger is the same patent 568177 minus the Pri/Sec with a diode. ;D

If I could make a few comments I would say, I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg. If an efficient means to produce a large scale plasma discharge is not produced we have nothing. The capacitor charging circuit in my last post is the easiest way I know of to replace the inverter/rectifier section of Gotoluc's circuit. This is a Tesla circuit yes, but this does not have to turn into another tesla thread, we have a goal to pursue. The next phase I am working on is the plasma process itself which I have already started .The question I had to ask first is what is happening here? this is not a standard HV arc as Gotoluc and Qiman have shown in there videos, it is not produced by the rectified inverter current as Qiman has shown. A known amount of energy in a capacitor has completely changed the qualities of its discharge from anything we know . These qualities have also changed the extent of interaction with matter (water vapor), I think a common goal would be to determine the exact "cause" of why the qualities of the plasma discharge have changed and what circuit properties have instigated this change. This would seem to be the most logical course of action if one is to improve both the efficiency and magnitude of the effect. In any case I will be working in that direction in the next few weeks and post the results.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jymboche on July 08, 2008, 06:11:03 AM
Hello all,
Been on the forums for a while, and finally thought i would register to post  :)
Anyway, There is a Japanese Van on youtube that runs on water http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OWDcWoXHs
It runs by injecting hydrogen into the cylinder which ignites (not enough to power the piston alone) and then immediately injects water vapor (i think) which then expands from the heat created by the hydrogen explosion giving it that extra umph to drive the piston. There is a translated version which i think someone posted on here earlier. Would it not be feasible to use this enhanced sparkplug/circuit to do that? Just an idea....
sorry if i come off as an idiot.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 08, 2008, 06:31:29 AM
So far I understand that a HV spark from the coil is seeking the source of the low voltage when present and when it hits the diodes that are placed between, it is slammed back intensifying the voltage as it seeks the closest ground.

 If I am right with what I have understood, then why cant we just install diodes between a positive lead from the battery and the spark plug and then slip the plug wire on over it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 06:48:10 AM
@Gotoluc
Oh crap, you know I don't perform well under stress :D

@NerzhDishualYes, I have below and in an earlier post the cap charger is the same patent 568177 minus the Pri/Sec with a diode. ;D

If I could make a few comments I would say, I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg. If an efficient means to produce a large scale plasma discharge is not produced we have nothing. The capacitor charging circuit in my last post is the easiest way I know of to replace the inverter/rectifier section of Gotoluc's circuit. This is a Tesla circuit yes, but this does not have to turn into another tesla thread, we have a goal to pursue. The next phase I am working on is the plasma process itself which I have already started .The question I had to ask first is what is happening here? this is not a standard HV arc as Gotoluc and Qiman have shown in there videos, it is not produced by the rectified inverter current as Qiman has shown. A known amount of energy in a capacitor has completely changed the qualities of its discharge from anything we know . These qualities have also changed the extent of interaction with matter (water vapor), I think a common goal would be to determine the exact "cause" of why the qualities of the plasma discharge have changed and what circuit properties have instigated this change. This would seem to be the most logical course of action if one is to improve both the efficiency and magnitude of the effect. In any case I will be working in that direction in the next few weeks and post the results.

Hi allcanadian,

If you are refering to how might a plasma discharge effect and explode the water such that it may release more energy then what was put into it. Please see this post:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 08, 2008, 07:46:27 AM
I was thinking about this today,like in capacitor70s case,where he has it running,wouldnt a hydrogen booster help it run better,after all,I can run my riding mower on about 1.5 lpm,not well,but it will  idle.I know this isnt a long term solution,but it could help the motor run long enough to get warm,then cut the hho off to straight water.I believe the motors may run when warm....just a thought.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 09:11:26 AM
I can sense a lot of frustration and anger from some people in this thread - because of confusion.  Very probably some of this confusion is deliberate sabotage.  But probably most of it is just communication difficulties - and semantics ARE important to avoid confusion.

Overunity - the word is meaningless.  Some say it's important, others say "who cares? - Just make it work!".  I believe we are all meaning the same thing, but using a poor choice of word.

IF the energy to create the spark is Less than the Power obtained from the power stroke - we are wasting energy.  The motor will not "run" on water - it will "run" on Electricity, which we will have to purchase.  This is obviously not going to liberate us from Big Oil.  So can we agree that we need "over-unity" in the sense that the power output of the spark-induced explosion Has to be greater than the power input supplied by the battery.  This should be a no-brainer - so why are we fighting over this?

Most importantly: there are still people at this late stage in the thread talking about Hydrogen and Burning and High Amps and Mist.  The working principle and source of available energy has been explained in detail - yet some are persisting on the wrong path than can only lead to failure. 

Big thanks to allcanadian!  Brilliant charging circuit - thank you, thank you!  And excellent advice about not putting the cart before the horse.

Our belief in the actual working principle of this energy source will change how we build, and ultimately lead to success or failure. 

We clearly aren't all on the same page - and no doubt I am angering some of you right now.  My intention is to bring focus and point out some of the ignor-ance and dis-information that seems to be sinking this thread. 

I personally feel I've been handed the keys to real free-energy and it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or does.  Or how civil or nasty they are in an internet thread. 

IMO these recurring ideas will lead to failure:

The idea that this is combustion of hydrogen - 1st mistake.  (We are liberating the Latent Heat of liquid Water in a low temperature process)

The idea that mist is required (and forgive me for mentioning ultrasonic misters earlier on - I didn't know the principle at that time).  If the energy comes from the transition of water into vapour - if we start with vapour, there is no energy left.  (Mist should be the Output of engine - not the Input.) 

The idea that higher current is required: Sure - we can make big sparks and blow up water, but at the huge expense of 10,000 J instead of 50 J by way of comparison.  This approach seems doomed to failure before we start.  (IMO, high voltage is needed to bridge the gap with plasma - and an extremely short high current pulse is required to explode the water.  High Amps ARE necessary - but not for very long, and not necessarily at high voltage.  Power = Volts x Amps - and we can't afford to waste either doing the wrong thing at the wrong time).

Brute force and ignorance are the answer to a lot of life's problems.  Just not this one.

We need intelligent circuit design - and to do that, we need to understand the basic principles we need the circuit to accomplish.

I shall shut up now.  Thanks to all those who have opened my eyes.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 09:31:47 AM
Hi all,

Please see my latest two "Proof Of Concept" videos here:

http://www.youtube.com//m1a9r9s9

The first video as follows is the overall proof of concept setup which includes a demonstration of the plasma discharge used. Again, the video here no where near comes close to capturing the power in the arc discharge. It is simply just too fast for the video camera!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzawlY9jCFk

The second video as follows is the actual proof of concept demonstration where I show how exploding water from a plasma discharge when applied, in this case to a line trimmer motor, can push the piston of an engine down with significant force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OTCqws_hsc

The line trimmer motor has been stripped to the bare motor including having the ignition magneto removed as the ignition pulse for this test uses a more powerfull standard automotive ignition coil. I also removed the bearing seals as this motor, being new, was quite tight and there was a great deal of friction caused by the bearing seals.

The power supply is simply a derivation of the previous circuits I have posted. The total discharge capacitance used was 500uf. Please see the circuit attached below.

In the setup video, where I show the spark plug discharges, I also show at the end how I sprayed water into the cylinder via the plark plug hole. I then would pull the recoil to mix the water up in the cylinder. I then screwed in the spark plug and pulled the recoil again to mix and splash the water all over inside of the cylinder and spark plug.

In the demonstration video, you can see me adjusting the cylinder position prior to the discharges such that the piston is only a few degrees retarded or past TDC as the cylinder has started to travel down. With the inverter power supply OFF, there is no movement of the engine's flywheel whatsoever even though the normal HV ignition sparks are occuring inside via the spark plug. This is because there is only water inside the cylinder and no traditional fuel such as petrol or anything else that is ignitable. Then, when the inverter power supply is turned ON, you can clearly see the flywheel kick over with force when the ignition coil is pulsed! It is clear that the plasma discharge from the power supply and discharge circuit are exploding the water inside the cylinder which is causing considerable pressure, via the expansion of water gas (fog), that pushes the piston down with considerable force.

After only a few of these discharges the flywheel stops turning. That is because all of the water making contact with the spark plug inside has been exploded off. But I can then simply just pull the recoil again which will cause the water in the cylinder to splash up and onto the spark plug.

Although, appropriately, I make no claims of the overall energy input, output and efficiency here, I have no doubt that the kinetic force generated by the exploding water within this engine, as demonstrated, will allow it to run using water only as the fuel once the appropriate ignition synchronisation and timing circuit has been built and put into place.

Please see below for a circuit diagram of the power supply and discharge circuit used. As well as some pictures of the proof of concept setup.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on July 08, 2008, 09:48:25 AM
The idea that this is combustion of hydrogen - 1st mistake.  (We are liberating the Latent Heat of liquid Water in a low temperature process)

The only problem I have with the idea that latent heat is being liberated in the process of converting liquid water to fog, is that under normal circumstances (e.g. evaporation), the latent heat quota of liquid water must be filled in order for the liquid to convert to a vapour state. That is, heat or other photonic energy is normally absorbed by the water (added to the water from an external source) for the conversion of liquid to vapour to occur. Latent heat energy is not released.

Latent heat is usually "liberated" when a vapour condenses back to a fluid, or a fluid is converted to solid. This is the opposite of what appears to be happening in the experiments shown.

The explanation given by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK, is a little more involved than that, I know, but it still leaves me a little puzzled ?

Can anybody expand on the explanation given by Graneau. ? I am not disputing the explanation, but I am struggling to fully understand it.

Cheers all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on July 08, 2008, 09:50:18 AM
tesla like spark plugs:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Firestorm_spark_plug

http://web.archive.org/web/20050307163215/www.robertstanley.biz/firestorm.htm

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 08, 2008, 10:19:49 AM
Please see my latest two "Proof Of Concept" videos here:

NICE work! Seeing that engine turn over, i was screaming out "yes!!". I've been one of the people in this thread nagging for someone to prove how much power this spark has in it, and I am now convinced.

As has been said in here earlier today, if what s1r says is true and a plasma arc of huge proportions is what we need in order to run an engine with enough power to move a vehicle (or do useful work), I now have total confidence that this thread - all about improving the spark - is the best thing this concept needs.

Thanks for demonstrating this, Ossie.

Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DHCP on July 08, 2008, 11:19:05 AM
Hi
First post, I have been interested in the whole concepts of this forum since I watched Equinox "it runs on water back in 95.
Any way there is far to much info on here for my little brain but I have been wondering the purpose of the vibrator relays shown in some of the circuit diagrams, would they be possible to create a multibal spark say from TDC to 3/4* ATDC the reason I thought of this was watching the vid  below forgive my ignorance but imagine that reaction at the degrease stated in the comp chamber?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I
Not only that but his setup looks to me like a crude version of Stan Meyers water infecter
Keep up the great work
Regards to you all
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 08, 2008, 11:52:15 AM
Hello all again,
As told some post before I worn out all my parts and waiting to restart with better protection, but there's something I think that maybe can help us all if possible to developp.

I used the hand switching between capacitor and coil approach. When succesful I changed to bigger capacitors to improve if possible the spark power, and sure it improved a little, enough to melt the plug.

Any case process is a little ticky, and the worse, it does not allow you to perform test in an easy and continuous way, at least for me, being a little impatient. (Sorry if English far from Shakespeare)


The question is:
As I am not able to design on my own a circuit to perform the pulses itself. Can you tell me if possible how to do or where to look for schemas for It?

I know signal generator and realys could do the trick, but those are not on my desk nor on everyone's budget, but I've seen some guys with more or less adjustable simple circuits that can change impulse rate as well as power pulses.

I think it could be very useful for everybody in order to look for the best parameters, as the ignition HV spark, low voltage power delivered through HV spark and so on, that at this moment I can test only once on every, hand-charge-capacitor-discharge-through-coil, hand-charge-capacitor-discharge-through-coil, melt-spark start over and so on...

Excuse my ignorance, there are more than 20 years I have to let away my very little electronic knowledge, (Knowledge?) and would most appreciate any help to build some kind of pulse automation to avoid wasting so much time in the tasks that have nothing to do with the real search.

Hope you can help.
Cheers.
Ri

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 08, 2008, 12:45:01 PM
The only problem I have with the idea that latent heat is being liberated in the process of converting liquid water to fog, is that under normal circumstances (e.g. evaporation), the latent heat quota of liquid water must be filled in order for the liquid to convert to a vapour state. That is, heat or other photonic energy is normally absorbed by the water (added to the water from an external source) for the conversion of liquid to vapour to occur. Latent heat energy is not released.

Latent heat is usually "liberated" when a vapour condenses back to a fluid, or a fluid is converted to solid. This is the opposite of what appears to be happening in the experiments shown.

The explanation given by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK, is a little more involved than that, I know, but it still leaves me a little puzzled ?

Can anybody expand on the explanation given by Graneau. ? I am not disputing the explanation, but I am struggling to fully understand it.

Cheers all.

So am I and maybe a little more than that?
Have you seen my post on Graneau, at page 8?

Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 12:50:39 PM
Alan,
OK, then take your motor out of your car and put an electric motor in, or continue with this shortsided banter and keep paying $4.35 per gallon (and on the rise) for gasoline.

@geo,

@geo
Hi, don't get me wrong, what I meant was, if it is not OU, it cannot work, just like running a car on HHO gas alone (seen from an conservation of energy point). I hope this is OU and it looks like it will be found out very soon.
(some suggestions:
if the motor runs, do some torque and rpm measurements.
replicate a combustion chamber to study the explosive energy (also said before by another armchair) )

I hope I do add something valuable, if not, sorry for polluting this thread any further.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rednael on July 08, 2008, 01:00:58 PM
Hi Callanan.
Nice work, there seem to be sufficient force in that single pulse downstroke, maybe more than gasolin.

Now the question is.
What is the current the inverter is drawing, if you pulse this circuit above by let say 80hz squarewave instead of the switch. This would give (2stroke) 80revs x 60s = 4800rpm.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 01:29:18 PM
I think the Graneau document is extremely clear.  Fog/mist/water vapour has less latent heat energy than rain drops or liquid water. 

I've always wondered about mist.  We tend to think of mist as being steam - because it's associated with boiling kettles and such.  But steam is invisible.  The phase transition from water to steam occurs at 100 degrees C, give or take depending on pressure.  When we see water vapour - it's not steam.  And mist and fog are associated with cold temperatures. 

On a cold foggy morning - what turns the fog back into water? I'm not 100% sure, but i'm reasonably certain that it's the solar radiation that adds extra heat.  Whether it condenses to form water, or whether it takes off into the sky to form clouds - I don't know.  But it seems clear to me that A/ it doesn't get turned into steam, and B/ it absorbs a lot of energy before it becomes liquid water again.

I'm thinking that a closed loop system is probably going to require an extensive heat exchanger system, where it would clearly be seen that ambiant heat energy is absorbed from the environment in the process of distilling the vapour back into water to be reused.  I believe this is probably a valid mechanism for a perpetuum mobile of the second kind - an isothermal Maxwell Demon.  But that's probably considered off topic ...

Anyway - low temperature fog has often fascinated me regarding energy content, and I think it's becoming much clearer to me know.  There is energy here (in water), for certain.

If we take a quantity of water, add a small amount of energy, and output that water as vapour, which now lacks the hydrogen bonds holding it together - we know that energy is, allegedly, never created nor destroyed - so that energy is liberated in the process.

Sounds wierd - but seems to be whats happening.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 01:47:16 PM
@greendoor
Fog forms when water evaporates due to geothermal heat and makes contact to colder air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog no need to wonder anymore ;)

Quote
On a cold foggy morning - what turns the fog back into water?
I think because the fog get sataurated and bigger water drops are formed.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 01:56:02 PM
@greendoor
Fog forms when water evaporates due to geothermal heat and makes contact to colder air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog no need to wonder anymore ;)

That's an overly simplistic statement that doesn't work for me.  Are you saying that water is converted to steam (requiring temperature at boiling point) and that it condenses back into water when cooled by colder air?  Obviously not ... so what is the mechanism that turns liquid water into fog or mist?  I'm just saying i've never really understood this - although assumed it has something to do with brownian motion and kinetic heat energy.  My understanding has always assumed that fog or mist was like a transition stage between water and steam, and therefore at a higher energy level.  But that's clearly wrong ... so now i'm seeing it as a LOWER energy level than water ...

But don't quote me - i'm just trying to get my head around this stuff.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 02:09:56 PM
Sorry to rant off topic - but somebody might be interested in this tangent ... I have experience with an old arc projector that used carbon rods to provide a powerful light beam for a theatre.  I also have welding experience - so I am thinking, why limit ourselves to single shot sparks?  Could we maintain a plasma stream - or perhaps a rapidly pulsed plasma stream - immersed in water, designed to shoot a continuous stream of vapour in one direction.  Maybe a conical spark gap could be used?  Maybe a capacitor could be used to shear water into vapour in one direction ... is this energy related to cavitation energy?  Could a mechanical solution rip the water apart?  Maybe a Tesla turbine? 

Sorry - just dancing around the basic principle here - because I believe the best designs will come from an understanding of what's actually providing the energy ...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 02:10:46 PM
I'm saying that a water turns into vapor (no need to boil) and then bigger drops are formed by cold air forming fog.
Put a glass with water in your room and watch it's volume decrease after a day or 2, that's what I've seen.
I also don't know the mechanics underneath it, but a simple study (google wiki) will give you most of the details.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 08, 2008, 02:21:13 PM
Callanan

Thank you for the demo and the work.
I am a little confused. When you rotated the crank with the cord pull (to disperse the vapor), why didn't the vapor just exit out of the exhaust port? had you sealed it closed?

Thanks again.
D     
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 08, 2008, 03:42:59 PM
As I am not able to design on my own a circuit to perform the pulses itself. Can you tell me if possible how to do or where to look for schemas for It?

I know signal generator and realys could do the trick, but those are not on my desk nor on everyone's budget, but I've seen some guys with more or less adjustable simple circuits that can change impulse rate as well as power pulses.

The lawton signal generator is one you could use to drive your relay. Or some other astable multivibrator.
Lawton signal generator:
fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/D14.pdf

I am using this circuit for single shot testing:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/555mono.gif
(circuit on the right)
That image is from this page, which includes explanations:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page9.htm

I got my relay from an auto store and it cost me more than it had to; $25. My friend got one online for $5.

You could also use the circuit shown in section 4.1 on this page, "Extended duty cycle astable":
http://www.doctronics.co.uk/555.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 03:59:04 PM
Callanan

Thank you for the demo and the work.
I am a little confused. When you rotated the crank with the cord pull (to disperse the vapor), why didn't the vapor just exit out of the exhaust port? had you sealed it closed?

Thanks again.
D     

Hi Dread,

I rotated the crank to splash more water in the cylinder up onto the spark plug as it gets used and exploded off after a few discharges. This is a 2 stroke line trimmer engine and all ports are open, no carby or muffler.  No valves. If you see vapour coming out, this is from the few discharges I had done. No vapour was put into the cylinder. Only liquid water was pumped into the cylinder as shown at the end of the previous setup video.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: petersone on July 08, 2008, 04:27:49 PM
Hi Ossie
It sounds like the plug could do with being upside down,or the whole thing,the water would be on the plug continuously.
Just my stupid observation.
happy hunting.
peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 08, 2008, 05:09:58 PM
Fog/mist/water vapour has less latent heat energy than rain drops or liquid water. 
Why is that?!

On a cold foggy morning - what turns the fog back into water? I'm not 100% sure, but i'm reasonably certain that it's the solar radiation that adds extra heat.  Whether it condenses to form water, or whether it takes off into the sky to form clouds - I don't know.  But it seems clear to me that A/ it doesn't get turned into steam, and B/ it absorbs a lot of energy before it becomes liquid water again.
Or C/ you simply need more study.
Water simply evaporates (as per your A/) because of the solar heat. When evaporating it absorbs energy. When turns to fog/mist/liquid it gives off energy as heat. It?s as simple as that.

If we take a quantity of water, add a small amount of energy, and output that water as vapour, which now lacks the hydrogen bonds holding it together - we know that energy is, allegedly, never created nor destroyed - so that energy is liberated in the process.
What energy is liberated and in what process?!! The energy that you provided in the first place? Huh!
And that?s not ?a small amount of energy? at all!

Please refrain posting such nonsense, ok?

@ all
Please just move on. The above is something that had to be corrected.
(Maybe a moderator can clean the mess. Thanks!)

Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: eserf on July 08, 2008, 05:30:00 PM
Hi guys, long time reader, very rare poster...  :D

Reading this had me remember a type of device used to vaporize any liquid that is small, and has no moving parts. It may be worth checking out, so at least as an aspect of the admission of water that can be regulated and controlled, eliminating one more variable: check it out ~ http://www.vapore.com/

They used to have some great videos, but I can't seem to find them anymore. Suffice to say, the obvious pressure and volume of the jet of vapor produced was very impressive.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2008, 05:32:01 PM
Hi Dread,

I rotated the crank to splash more water in the cylinder up onto the spark plug as it gets used and exploded off after a few discharges. This is a 2 stroke line trimmer engine and all ports are open, no carby or muffler.  No valves. If you see vapour coming out, this is from the few discharges I had done. No vapour was put into the cylinder. Only liquid water was pumped into the cylinder as shown at the end of the previous setup video.

Regards,

Ossie

Once again ;) great job Ossie.

One thing to keep in mind is once you have your timing system set up and you want the engine to work on its own, make sure you restrict your air intake. S1R has said this many times, when running on water you will not need much air intake since water itself contains Oxygen. So don't leave the intake open full, find some way to adjust it to find the correct balance.

You may want to keep the carby on as air regulator and drill a hole after the throttle body valve to fit a fine water hose.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 05:38:13 PM
@eserf
Haven't read the site, but is it something like these:
http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html
These are used in vivariums.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 08, 2008, 06:46:01 PM
As Capacitor70 got his kick-start engine to fire briefly on water; I feel it is relevant to this thread.
He summed things up in a post this morning
so I re-post his information to this thread as a reference for all:
Capacitor70 Design Details
Posted by: "capacitor" capacitor70@yahoo.co.in   capacitor70
Tue Jul 8, 2008 9:22 am (PDT)
1. I am not posting message on yahoo group, do not email me I will not
reply to email.
2. You can send me message on youtube or overunity.com to get reply.
3. Forum which contains all details is
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html
4. Please read previous pages of forum for details.
5. Do not say tanks, nice idea on overunity forum, post only useful
information, Do not chat on forum, send personal message for any queries.

6. What I used in working model is
1. capacitor 330uF 400V.
2. 50Amps Rectifier.
3. 6A4 or 6A10 diodes. diodes are not stable it gets very hot.
4. Circuit is not stable many times it does not work properly due
to diodes.
5. Bulbs are to prevent surge current and protect inverter.
6. Engine Timings are not modified.
7. I don't have CDI unit on engine, so I use engines pulse pick up
coil to pulse Ignition coil through transistor.
8. Circuit also works well with engines CDI unit.
9. Nearly all single cylinder engine have -Ve high voltage
generation for spark, engine body acts as +ve for HV.
10. To Change -ve HV to +ve swap the ignition coil wires.
11. Chnage of -ve to +ve is simple for 3 wire ignition coils
12. For two wire ignition coil, coil core must be connected to +ve
and pulsing wire to -ve. (little difficult)
13. Spark plug is not modified, only resistance is removed from it.
14. It consumes spark plug very soon.
15. How to remove resistance is given in youtube videos see my
favorite.
16. Any part of engine is not modified.


7. I tried my circuit with 4 stroke 125CC bike engine and 2HP engine
it is not giving single fire. But it is giving little better
results with 80CC 4 Stroke engine Kinetic K4, as you seen in
youtube video.

8. Spark Plug shown in my photos is not used for this purpose, it
is HAJI (Hydrogen Assisted Jet Ignition System), Its not working.
Prechamber ignition for hydrogen engine.

Ideas
1. More you can do is ionize water before sending it to engine
carburetor.
2. Like Myers plug doing.
3. See Geet System for more research.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NETIKS on July 08, 2008, 06:56:51 PM
HELLO Everybody  im searching for water ioniser circuit with no success......
I can only find air ionizer circuits
If somebody can help...thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 08, 2008, 07:12:34 PM
Could someone please clarify something for me?
I don't know how to post images and diagrams here so I will just have to describe what I am talking about.

On page 1, there is a picture diagram and a circuit diagram. In my view they are significantly different. The picture diagram (the circuit I am using) does not have a 12 volt source connected to the ignition coil. A capacitor is discharging through the the ignition coil while 120v rectified DC is added to the discharge via diodes.

In the circuit diagram (callanan's circuit) the coil is building it's charge from a 12v battery and when the spark is triggered a capacitor that is charged via 240v inverter releases it's charge on top of the ignition coil spark.

Is this correct or am I missing something?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 08, 2008, 07:31:52 PM
@all, S1R9A9M9 has released his coil design today to the water fuel 1978 Yahoo group. He says the video showing the 18hp B&S engine used this coil design and did not use an inverter or diodes. Check it out.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 08, 2008, 07:45:56 PM
@all, S1R9A9M9 has released his coil design today to the water fuel 1978 Yahoo group. He says the video showing the 18hp B&S engine used this coil design and did not use an inverter or diodes. Check it out.

RD
Strange.. 14 gauge uninsulated wire  for one of the windings ??? This sounds like a copper core instead of a iron core transformer. I will have to wrap my brain around the construction description. A picture would be helpful here. I suspect something is missing from the description as it does not make sense.

I am thinking that the design by Allcanadian on page 16 (??) of this thread  using just a 12 volt iron core transformer, a diode and a cap is a much simpler method.

Got a bunch of parts from Ebay so a trip to RadioShaft and a bit of time should see if I can get a plasma spark. Got a 7hp Briggs Electric start engine to play with so at least my arm (or leg) will not get sore from starting.  ::)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 08, 2008, 08:45:04 PM
Another useful doc

http://www.untoldmysteries.com/extraordinary/HARD-Evidence-CAR-ENGINE-on-Tap-WATER-PlasmaSpark-Hydrogen-Fuel-Free%20Energy-(539Kb)-untoldmysteries-com.pdf

Hi all,

I?m not sure if this document went largely unnoticed (thanks, stanis!) but after a quick reading I?d like to raise a couple of issues that bothers me. Maybe someone part of that group can help me solving the main question I have, which is about the temperature of the running engine. Is it running cold or hot? I?ve seen that actual power is slightly reduced and I?ve read a lot of other information but I was fervidly and unsuccessfully looking for the answer to what I consider to be a fundamental question: Tout should tell us a lot and it is not even mentioned
Well, what bothers me also in connection to the above question is the fact that 800W (give or take) is clearly not enough to make the engine running hot (steam is surely out of question) so, why the condenser in the modified tank?! On the other hand, if the engine runs cold (let?s assume for the sake of debate that it violates the 2nd principle) then it will actually evacuate cold vapors and keep cooling up to the point of ice formation; tank structure doesn?t justify either as it would make more harm than good.

Please comment.

Many thanks,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 08, 2008, 09:26:31 PM
Strange.. 14 gauge uninsulated wire  for one of the windings ??? This sounds like a copper core instead of a iron core transformer. I will have to wrap my brain around the construction description. A picture would be helpful here. I suspect something is missing from the description as it does not make sense.

I am thinking that the design by Allcanadian on page 16 (??) of this thread  using just a 12 volt iron core transformer, a diode and a cap is a much simpler method.

Got a bunch of parts from Ebay so a trip to RadioShaft and a bit of time should see if I can get a plasma spark. Got a 7hp Briggs Electric start engine to play with so at least my arm (or leg) will not get sore from starting.  ::)



@hydrocontrol, I read it the same way, 'uninsulated copper wire' for a core yet further down the page a "nail" is mentioned to be added. I agree a few details are missing but it appears to be simple enough to replicate with what's been described so far.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 08, 2008, 10:23:27 PM
I would like to propose that, per Lucs request we keep this "on topic". So haveing seen the downloaded the PDF from S1R, we start a NEW topic for the discussion of his coil based S1r system. And keep THIS topic for the diode/bridge setup.

So i started one...LOL

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5112.msg111015.html#msg111015
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 08, 2008, 10:32:42 PM
I would like to propose that, per Lucs request we keep this "on topic". So haveing seen the downloaded the PDF from S1R, we start a NEW topic for the discussion of his coil based S1r system. And keep THIS topic for the diode/bridge setup.

So i started one...LOL

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5112.msg111015.html#msg111015

Good idea. This thread should remain a alternate-better research method for making a plasma spark.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 10:37:39 PM
Thanks  TheOne

2  concerns  I have with the  pulstar 
Will it  handle   the inverter  current?   The  diagram shows the  pulse circuit  in line  with the  center  conductor .

About   the  gap
Their   Fac  sheet  says

Q: What gap setting do I use for Pulstar??

A: If your vehicle manual calls for a gap less than .040" then use the factory recommended settings. Under no circumstances should you set the gap to greater the .040", regardless of the manual setting. Back to top

Could  it  be that to big of a gap  causes  higher  voltage in the plug and could   burn  the pulse circuit out?

I think I  like the Torque Master better
I also think that  the  Torque Master design  might  help    with  oil  fouling like   Capicator   had trouble with

gary

I got the answer from pulstar

Quote
The short answer is yes and the short term result is a decay of the electrode

link: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Pulstar_Pulse_Plug
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 08, 2008, 11:19:03 PM
@ wawez
Many thanks for the info on timers, It will help a lot.

@all
I read the post concerning S1r coil description and the new thread, so noticed that S1r announced inverters are not needed anymore as well he says the new coil design does not require to modify the motor timing.
(Tesla around?)
maybe this could be the way to avoid melting inverters ??  ;D
Ri
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 08, 2008, 11:36:33 PM
Hi everyone,

Here is a picture of S1R's coil.  I took the liberty to enhance the picture by placing "readable" text by everything he had in his picture.  Hope this helps!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 09, 2008, 12:19:19 AM
Hi All
One can buy a room humidifier that uses an ultrasonic transducer to transform water into vapor.
The unit I've seen uses about 15 watts to produce as much vapor as 1500 watts would boiling it.
The vapor from one of those could be injected into this unit.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 09, 2008, 12:27:17 AM
Hi All
One can buy a room humidifier that uses an ultrasonic transducer to transform water into vapor.
The unit I've seen uses about 15 watts to produce as much vapor as 1500 watts would boiling it.
The vapor from one of those could be injected into this unit.


Good idea AbbaRue.

I'm wondering if to make the whole electical part more efficiant, this could be used in place of the light bulb in the circuit. then there is less waste in the system as a whole.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Gearhead on July 09, 2008, 03:03:12 AM
Do you think ionized water would help?  There are ionizers available that will ionize water enough to change the Ph down to 2.5 or up to 11.  The claim is that when water is ionized to high Ph (alkaline) it takes on a hexagonal cluster shape.  I wonder if this is how a Joe cell conditions the water?  At any rate it may be a way to add energy to the water to get more power from an IC engine.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 09, 2008, 03:35:47 AM
Hi all,

Just some errata pointed out to me by Ben on the schematic of my last post of the Proof Of Concept setup. The household light globes are mistakenly drawn in series but are actually connected in parallel relative to each other only. Also, the output from the string of diodes in the discharge circuit should be connected to the spark plug's ground base and not it's top pin. Apologies for these mistakes.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 09, 2008, 03:53:57 AM
@callanan
It was a thing of beauty to see that engine "fire" . 

A thought came to me that is easy to try.  Add a little hydrogen peroxide to the spray bottle and see if there is more of a reaction.    Maybe the engine will start easier if perhaps there is some disassociation of the H2 and O2 and the spark might ignite some of the molecules.  Maybe this will aid the conversion of water to vapor state?  Sort of act as a catalyst by a little combustion to the process?

hydrogen peroxide (hydrogen dioxide) mixes well with water and in high concentration is a rocket fuel. 

tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on July 09, 2008, 05:40:18 AM
Hi all. I have read with interest the past posts and I have a question, of the drawing back on post #653. Ossie shows in his drawing near the coil, a device labled C3, which I believe is a capacitor? What is the value and is it a cap? I have everything else just about wired up and I need this help.
Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 09, 2008, 06:14:48 AM
Hi all. I have read with interest the past posts and I have a question, of the drawing back on post #653. Ossie shows in his drawing near the coil, a device labled C3, which I believe is a capacitor? What is the value and is it a cap? I have everything else just about wired up and I need this help.
Thanks, Mike

Hi Mike,

2uf, 250V bipolar. The values are not that imprtant for the test. You can also use an auto distrbutor condensor here which is made for this purpose.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 09, 2008, 06:57:49 AM
Hi all,

I?m not sure if this document went largely unnoticed (thanks, stanis!) but after a quick reading I?d like to raise a couple of issues that bothers me. Maybe someone part of that group can help me solving the main question I have, which is about the temperature of the running engine. Is it running cold or hot? I?ve seen that actual power is slightly reduced and I?ve read a lot of other information but I was fervidly and unsuccessfully looking for the answer to what I consider to be a fundamental question: Tout should tell us a lot and it is not even mentioned
Well, what bothers me also in connection to the above question is the fact that 800W (give or take) is clearly not enough to make the engine running hot (steam is surely out of question) so, why the condenser in the modified tank?! On the other hand, if the engine runs cold (let?s assume for the sake of debate that it violates the 2nd principle) then it will actually evacuate cold vapors and keep cooling up to the point of ice formation; tank structure doesn?t justify either as it would make more harm than good.

Please comment.

Many thanks,
Tinu

Tinu,
IMO there will be friction......where there is friction, there is heat.
Livingwaters08

Title: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: qiman on July 09, 2008, 08:09:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dazzasta on July 09, 2008, 02:29:07 PM
Hi all,

This is my first post, i've been following this forum since christmas, and got my '81 landcruiser running on hydrogen, but until now didn't feel i had anything to offer.
This may sound really basic although i am;;;;;;; As i uderstand the inverter is used to supply amps with the coil discharge accross the spark gap to creat the plasma arc; but when using 110v or 240v you are supplimenting volts for amps, has anyone tried getting rid of the transformer and rectifiers and connecting straight to 12v or 24v along with coil discharge.
Although this may be a delicate act of the right amount of volts, the right amount of amps, the right amount of water and the right engine to get this thing going, it's well worth the effort.

hope i've been some help.
Keep up the good work
Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: tinu on July 09, 2008, 03:29:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop

This piece of info is crucial! Many, many thanks and please accept me bothering you with several more questions. I?m currently working on deciphering the theory behind the main subject and any piece of experimental evidences will keep me on track.

1. A small white light is seen on the spark plug at all times. Is it the spot of the laser gun (and the spot where you take temperature readings)? If not, does the light mean something or it is just an artifact of the camera / reflection of the main light in the room? Also, if not, where does the IR gun take readings more exactly?

2. Temperature drop is from 77F (25C) to 70F (21.1C) in about 4s then the sparks are interrupted. (I don?t know if this is purposely or accidental). Can you please re-make the experiment for a longer discharge time (10-15s) and then also by adding a mist of water for comparison?

3. Please confirm that the IR thermometer is TE 261, having an accuracy of +/-2% (4F/2C), automatic compensation for temperature deviations from ambient temperature, sample rate 1s; if different, please let me know the specifications/model.

4. As far as I know, IR thermometers are based on emissivity values and consequently they may be severely affected because of that. Do you think that light from the discharge may severely confuse the thermometer thus affect the readings? If so, is it possible to place a thin&black object in between the spark and IR sensor and to repeat the measurements? Thin ? for small thermal inertia; black for blocking the light; surface properties and emissivity value may be adjusted through a different calibration experiment.

Again, I thank you very much in advance and please apologize for any trouble. Imho, the results of your experiments may be fundamental for advancing into the water-engine issue.

Best regards,
Tinu
Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: gotoluc on July 09, 2008, 03:32:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop

Thank you Aaron for doing once again an important test and great video demonstration to show there is something quite interesting going on here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 09, 2008, 04:21:41 PM
@quiman
Congratulations, You are one of very few people to get this far :)
It's interesting that this effect(electrostatic cooling) is almost completely absent in the scientific literature but has been around for a very long time. The most noteable person to utilize this effect was Victor Schauberger some 80 years ago, many people equate Schauberger with water and the vortex but this was only a small part of his work. Victor stated he could produce 2 million volts potential from a single drop of water using capilliary tubes and a small suction source! and the resultant "cold expansion" could produce a large temperature drop. In the right context this cold expansion could also produce a perfect vacuum to power his devices . In our world we equate heat with expansion and cold with contraction but this seems to be a bit of an illusion as heat and cold are not "something" they are a condition of "something". If only heat expands and only cold contracts then why is our cold upper atmosphere at a low pressure? It should be very dense if it has supposedly contracted. We could also say radiating energy is expansive relative to the source and contractive relative to its target. In any case if heat is not produced I think it is safe to assume the forces involved are electrostatic in nature, as everthing is.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 09, 2008, 04:46:23 PM
@quiman & All

Interesting indeed as I have worked with electrostatic cooling for some 5 years now, it is still a thrill to see how many different ways it can be invoked.

For a starter for those that are not familiar with the effect you could start at http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm and a google in the subject will bring up many interesting papers, it seems welding is familiar with the effect. I am also aware that NASA has and is doing research in this area.

Now a simple question, the cooling in the video appears to go down at a near constant rate, but once the arc is stopped it at once returns to the 77' mark, I'm not understanding why we wuld not see a ramp back up to the 77', if surfaces are cooled how do they at once obtain instant ambient temperature?

Thanks, forever interesting.....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 09, 2008, 05:10:27 PM
@qiman
There are things happening in the spark which we don't fully understand. I was thinking, maybe the ir light from the ir temperature meter is being absorbed or manipulated or whatever, therefore it isn't showing the correct temperature. Maybe a low-tech temp-meter should be used, just to be sure it is really dropping.
Just a thought. 8)

(I see tinu asked the same)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 09, 2008, 07:29:21 PM
For those with a spark/arc setup.... I have a simple idea that I would like someone to try out.
then again, maybe not so simple, but you never know... until you find out.

The concept would be to use capillary action.... instead of fog and mist.

A bottle of water suspended with a capillary tube output that enables a small "ball" of water to hang at its tip.
Place the "ball" between the electrodes and fire it up and tell us what happens.

I would think getting the tube to "re-feed" another "ball" in sync with the next spark might be a problem,
but I would think we could fire off at least one. ;D

Just a thought.  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 09, 2008, 07:36:08 PM
Does any one know if the ceramic formula for a spark plug is difficult to duplicate ? Chet
Actually I just realized something    ceramic epoxies are used on the shuttle   ITW developed this Tech for NASA years ago and marketed it later on   and it is still available   However they where fighting high temp this does not seem relevant here[temp]so casting a plug with a water jacket just got a lot easier
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HHOwanabe on July 09, 2008, 07:39:59 PM
Hi all.  Please HELP!
I am not an EE and not that good at auto mechanics either. But I am very excited about the work you all are doing on making a (standard) internal cumbustion engine run on water. It looks very doable and promising.  I got so excited I wanted to try Ossi's experiment as posted on page 6 reply #235.  I bought all the parts, except the strobe light which I could not find.  Now, looking at the diagram and pictures it appears the battery + and - wires go into the strobe light and from there the + wire seems to go through the coil + side to the plug AND around the coil to the plug (with diodes in this path to protect against curent backflow (layman terms). The - wire looks like it goes to the coil - side then to ground at (effectively) the plug base.  It also appears (in the video) that the strobe light creates a pulsing action that causes the plug to spark about every second.  So, I decided since I did not have the strobe light, I could just wire up the  test according to the digram and pictures, (making sure the diodes were wired in the same direction) then connect the - wire to the battery - terminal.  To complete the circuit and create a spark, I would just tap the + wire to the + batery terminal.  But alas when I tried this, no spark?  Then, I disconnected the + wire from the + side of the coil and the plug, tapped the + wire to the + side of the battery, and wala, spark!  In laymans terms, is that strobe light providing some magical separation of the current such that it goes to directly to the plug sometimes then breaks that current to go through the coil to the plug the next time?  Thanks all of you for your research and for the help you provide to those of us not quite as talented as yourselves.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 09, 2008, 08:04:04 PM
Does any one know if the ceramic formula for a spark plug is difficult to duplicate ? Chet
Actually I just realized something    ceramic epoxies are used on the shuttle   ITW developed this Tech for NASA years ago and marketed it later on   and it is still available   However they where fighting high temp this does not seem relevant here[temp]so casting a plug with a water jacket just got a lot easier


Ramset

On my  thread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html

In  reply 4  I have  the part #  and link  for  what I plan to try .

It is  a 2 part  mix


I have not  tried it  yet   


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 09, 2008, 10:45:58 PM
Hi all.  Please HELP!
I am not an EE and not that good at auto mechanics either. But I am very excited about the work you all are doing on making a (standard) internal cumbustion engine run on water. It looks very doable and promising.  I got so excited I wanted to try Ossi's experiment as posted on page 6 reply #235.  I bought all the parts, except the strobe light which I could not find.  Now, looking at the diagram and pictures it appears the battery + and - wires go into the strobe light and from there the + wire seems to go through the coil + side to the plug AND around the coil to the plug (with diodes in this path to protect against curent backflow (layman terms). The - wire looks like it goes to the coil - side then to ground at (effectively) the plug base.  It also appears (in the video) that the strobe light creates a pulsing action that causes the plug to spark about every second.  So, I decided since I did not have the strobe light, I could just wire up the  test according to the digram and pictures, (making sure the diodes were wired in the same direction) then connect the - wire to the battery - terminal.  To complete the circuit and create a spark, I would just tap the + wire to the + batery terminal.  But alas when I tried this, no spark?  Then, I disconnected the + wire from the + side of the coil and the plug, tapped the + wire to the + side of the battery, and wala, spark!  In laymans terms, is that strobe light providing some magical separation of the current such that it goes to directly to the plug sometimes then breaks that current to go through the coil to the plug the next time?  Thanks all of you for your research and for the help you provide to those of us not quite as talented as yourselves.

 I'm not sure I understand you but there is only one wire hooked to + on the coil. The strobe acts as a set of points would in an ignition system.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HHOwanabe on July 09, 2008, 11:33:41 PM
Bumfuzzled,
Thanks for the quick response.  According to the diagram (on pg 6 reply #235) the + wire goes from the strobe to the + side of coil.  In that path, is a conection for another wire (with diodes) that goes to the plug cap.  In the picture, that second wire actually comes from the + side of the coil to the plug cap.  The coil output (large plug wire) also goes to the plug cap.  I used 14g wire for the primary wiring and 10g wire to go from the coil output to the plug.  I use gator clamps at the ends of all wires.  My plug is a Champion CJ8, which the salesman told me was a non-resistor plug.
I agree that the strob simply simulates a cars distributor.  But what I don't understand, is why when I wire up this test as shown in the diagram and pictures (without the strobe though) I get no spark when I tap the + side of the battery with the  wire going to the coils + terminal.  If I remove the wire going from the + coil terminal to the plug, I do get a (normal) spark.  Totaly confused???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lasher23 on July 09, 2008, 11:51:47 PM
Hello all,

I'm a novice, but I've been working on this project too. I fried my inverter and I've decided to use allCanadians cap charging circuit with my setup. I've got everything setup andI can charge my HV cap
to over a thousand volts easily enough. My problem is that the voltage leaks out of the cap very, very quickly. I know this is a newb question, but how do I dump that voltage quickly into my coil? I'm trying to be of use, but if this post is too off topic, delete it and I'll figure it out myself.

Thanks for any assistance.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 10, 2008, 01:03:27 AM

Hi AllCanadian and All(Canadian and else ;D)

IMHO, we are on the same pages...
My motto is : Back to Basics...

Two examples:
1) The programming language FORTRAN II has 4 major instructions:
a) Test: IF(Logical_Expression) Label1, Label2, Label3
b) Affectation: Variable = Expression
c) {ON expression} GOTO Label{s}
d) DO label, Expression (this could be avoided by using IF and GOTO)

I had in my archives an old LISP compiler written in FORTRAN II.
I 're-wrote' this compiler in a more 'modern' (but Basic :)) language.

2) To design a software for a (one color) "Computer Drafting Table" (what do you call
that?), you only need 3 instructions:
a) Pen Up
b) Pen Down
c) GOTO X,Y
I have done it: a (first level) DXF interpreter with an old  but very 'accurate'
TEKTRONIC(?) Table that was only given these 3 basic instructions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
This is not to boast about anything, but just for pointing out that, IMHO, the
simplest the best for first testing and figuring out how things could work.
I do believe that nature is simple and that we must also be simple and humble.
"Heureux les simples d'esprit, ils seront les premiers au royaume des cieux".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
At the beginning you got an egg. Then a chicken.....
...............................
I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind
of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg...
.....................................................

Now, just for the fun(?), some interpretations of 2 Tesla patents:

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/AllCanadian_Tesla_Pat_568177_Outline.jpg)
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/My_Tesla_pat_568177_Redraw.jpg)
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/My_Tesla_pat_609250_Redraw.jpg)

Do you see any differences?
I swear that I was not aware of my first drawing when I did the second one some weeks later.

Keep cool, the said Tesla patents are here:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf)
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf)

Best


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 01:17:35 AM
That video showed only a few seconds of a test. Not only long enough to see that the off time temp when shutting off has brought the temp down, but it did show that it did NOT increase it whereas for the same input conventionally with a regular spark DOES heat it up.

Here is what I also did to eliminate any interference, I measured the temp when it was off....ran it for several minutes...turn it off and measure again... the temp either stays the same or it drops. There is no effect from from EMP from the circuit, etc...

Anyway, everyone doing this probably has gotten this far. Just has anyone measured the temp of what they're getting?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 01:35:32 AM
Bumfuzzled,
Thanks for the quick response.  According to the diagram (on pg 6 reply #235) the + wire goes from the strobe to the + side of coil.  In that path, is a conection for another wire (with diodes) that goes to the plug cap.  In the picture, that second wire actually comes from the + side of the coil to the plug cap.  The coil output (large plug wire) also goes to the plug cap.  I used 14g wire for the primary wiring and 10g wire to go from the coil output to the plug.  I use gator clamps at the ends of all wires.  My plug is a Champion CJ8, which the salesman told me was a non-resistor plug.
I agree that the strob simply simulates a cars distributor.  But what I don't understand, is why when I wire up this test as shown in the diagram and pictures (without the strobe though) I get no spark when I tap the + side of the battery with the  wire going to the coils + terminal.  If I remove the wire going from the + coil terminal to the plug, I do get a (normal) spark.  Totaly confused???

Sorry, I didn't build that circuit but you can try reversing the polarity on the coil primary. This is what I had to do to get mine to work with the other circuit. Hook everything back up and just swap the + and - on yer battery and see what happens.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 05:50:06 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincedental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of directions based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 05:59:41 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincedental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of direction based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie

My thoughts exactly. There are too many things that don't add up between what he says and what the vid shows and what the pic and description of the coil shows. I think you and luc have hit too close to home for him so he's trying to throw a curve ball. If I recall he made several statements how he wasn't in it for the money and he wanted to help poor people yet he keeps everything hidden instead of letting it out so thousands of people can perfect it and get it to these poor people, then all the sudden he's talking about a patent. It sure got quiet in this thread after he came out with the new info.

Have you made any more progress?? Do you think we need a huge plasma arc to make this work?

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 10, 2008, 06:02:26 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincedental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of directions based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie

The thing I found weird about it is the new coil have nothing to do of what S1r described on his setup. Also he talked about inverter on his setup. On his original setup you needed some kind of relay with 2 diodes.

Now you dont any of that just need one special coil.

Hopefully its not disinformation, we will see in his next video on youtube about his coil setup
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 10, 2008, 06:17:43 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincidental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of directions based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie

Ossie,

As much as I want to believe, and as much as I have learned from you and my own research, and as much as I am convinced that the process your are developing (that S1R says is not how he did it now!) has promise and that your engine and my engine will "run",........

 I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Sorry S1R and all concerned, even with expressed sincerity and helpfulness, all have exceeded the limits of my gullibility..BS me once, shame on you, BS me twice, shame on me!...I guess we will have to carry on like ol Frank Sanatra sang ......."I'll do it my way"...............

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 10, 2008, 06:22:43 AM
Hello all,

I'm a novice, but I've been working on this project too. I fried my inverter and I've decided to use allCanadians cap charging circuit with my setup. I've got everything setup andI can charge my HV cap
to over a thousand volts easily enough. My problem is that the voltage leaks out of the cap very, very quickly. I know this is a newb question, but how do I dump that voltage quickly into my coil? I'm trying to be of use, but if this post is too off topic, delete it and I'll figure it out myself.

Thanks for any assistance.

Hi lasher23, are you using a Microwave oven capacitor? If so that would be the reason why you cap is leaking so fast as they have a built in resistor to keep draining it self in case the unit is serviced one would not accidentally electrocute them self.

If you go to a camera film store and ask them if they could give you a couple of disposable cameras (that they developed the film)  the ones with the built in flash you could use the capacitor in it as they are around 120uf and rated up to 300 volts but don't charge them to this you only need about 120 volts or less. Make sure to short the cap before you take then out.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 06:26:47 AM
The thing I found weird about it is the new coil have nothing to do of what S1r described on his setup. Also he talked about inverter on his setup. On his original setup you needed some kind of relay with 2 diodes.

Now you dont any of that just need one special coil.

Hopefully its not disinformation, we will see in his next video on youtube about his coil setup

Hi TheOne,

You should really hope that it is indeed disinformation. Because this will make sense and it will be more likely that what he is doing in his video is quite real. Or else if his videos are indeed hoaxes, then it would make sense for him to try and reinforce them by providing detailed information that made sense and related to what we have found and developed here in this thread. He could simply have copied most of it. But he hasn't. He has provided detailed information that doesn't make any sense and if it doesn't make sense then it most likely isn't true. This would then serve the purpose of hiding what he is doing which does give the impression that what he is showing in his videos is quite real.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 10, 2008, 06:59:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop

Temp. drop in an ICE would need to be determined.  Certainly could be cooler due to lack of explosive heat, but friction still will create heat along the cylinder walls, and any bearing surface.  So, IMO, no cold running ICE.  ;D

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 10, 2008, 07:01:12 AM
Need some suggestions for ideas guys.  I recently got some nice plasma sparks by rigging up a similar system to xbox_hacker.

Ive used HV microwave diodes in parallel to block the HV and a 1000v 1a diode to block the LV from going back to the coil (which i am using my car to run).

Problems:
-  Spark doesnt explode like ones in video, even with mist added, still bloody bright though
-  Spark is very inconsistent
-  Does NOT work with rectified DC, perhaps something to do with the waveform in AC

I suspect that you cant pass LV via HV at the same time without creating a dead short, however i read something about a magnetic field around the plug generated by LV, being turned into plasma at the point of sparking, could be making the plasma?  Dont really know my physics, this is all speculation.   

When my inverter arrives i will attempt the same design with that, i will also try more/less diodes in parallel (to simulate more/less LV current).  I will also try xbox_hacker's voltage doubler, the 110v version and 240v (since im in australia).

Throw some ideas and criticism at me guys, its much appreciated!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 07:09:55 AM
Ossie,

As much as I want to believe, and as much as I have learned from you and my own research, and as much as I am convinced that the process your are developing (that S1R says is not how he did it now!) has promise and that your engine and my engine will "run",........

 I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Sorry S1R and all concerned, even with expressed sincerity and helpfulness, all have exceeded the limits of my gullibility..BS me once, shame on you, BS me twice, shame on me!...I guess we will have to carry on like ol Frank Sanatra sang ......."I'll do it my way"...............

Ben

Hi Ben,

Right on! All of my tests have shown that only a higher power supply voltage ,and/or a higher capacitance discharge, will result in a more powerfull water explosion as long as you can get enough water to come in contact with the larger and stranger arc plasma. There doesn't seem to be any real way that I have seen or tested where you can put a "passive network" into the discharge circuit and get a larger water explosion. Let alone power the discharge circuit from as low a voltage as 12 volts. A passive network will only waste and reduce the energy of the discharge and as a consequence, the water explosion will be smaller.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 10, 2008, 07:12:34 AM
Hello Group,
I believe that we will find quite a few ways of running an ICE on water.  Like the old saying goes..."there's more than one way to skin a cat," 

Let's be a little  more objective in our assessment of others working on this project.  Egos do get in the way!

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 07:14:28 AM
Was looking in my Summit racing catalog tonight and saw this coil. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8261&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It puts out 45,000v at 2 amps. Is this possible? If so then why can't somebody just build a coil that puts out say 6 or 7 amps, even if you have to lose a lil HV. What am I missing here??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 10, 2008, 07:17:06 AM
a custom coil- not a bad idea, id imagine it would be huge though.  Perhaps draw too much power from the battery?  normal coil draws 5 amps doesnt it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 07:26:22 AM
Was looking in my Summit racing catalog tonight and saw this coil. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8261&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It puts out 45,000v at 2 amps. Is this possible? If so then why can't somebody just build a coil that puts out say 6 or 7 amps, even if you have to lose a lil HV. What am I missing here??

Hi bumfuzzled,

Aren't you making an assumption that it "puts out" this voltage and amperage? If it were so, wouldn't it be putting out 90 kilowatts? This is enough power for 9 or 10 houses if it was continuous. I think you will find that it uses a pulsed current of 2 amps for a 12 volt system and will put out 45,000 volts but at very little current. At 100% efficiency it will only put out 533uAmps (micoamps) at 45,000 volts. A microamp is one millionth of an amp...

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on July 10, 2008, 07:26:31 AM
Looking for confirmation, people have tried S1R's coil setup and it does not work - correct?

I was going to try it as I do not have capable diodes, or an inverter atm, but it looked too 'kooky' to be legit to me!  On the one hand it's sad to see yet another inventor chasing patents, yet heartening to see him scrambling to be 'helpful' all of a sudden, despite nere a peep out of him for a couple of years - makes me think that we are on the right path!!! :)
Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 08:53:49 AM
Temp. drop in an ICE would need to be determined.  Certainly could be cooler due to lack of explosive heat, but friction still will create heat along the cylinder walls, and any bearing surface.  So, IMO, no cold running ICE.  ;D

Livingwaters08

Yes, friction would still play a part to generate heat even if no explosive heat. I would use vacclaisocryptene additive to reduce friction to the lowest possible. It was developed for the oil/gas refinery industry by the oil/gas refinery industry to prevent maintenance on their own equipment. If anyone knows what the best would be, it is them. And YES, I am a dealer. www.vacclaisocryptene.com because I believe in it from my own results.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 08:57:09 AM
@quiman
Congratulations, You are one of very few people to get this far :)
It's interesting that this effect(electrostatic cooling) is almost completely absent in the scientific literature but has been around for a very long time. The most noteable person to utilize this effect was Victor Schauberger some 80 years ago, many people equate Schauberger with water and the vortex but this was only a small part of his work. Victor stated he could produce 2 million volts potential from a single drop of water using capilliary tubes and a small suction source! and the resultant "cold expansion" could produce a large temperature drop. In the right context this cold expansion could also produce a perfect vacuum to power his devices . In our world we equate heat with expansion and cold with contraction but this seems to be a bit of an illusion as heat and cold are not "something" they are a condition of "something". If only heat expands and only cold contracts then why is our cold upper atmosphere at a low pressure? It should be very dense if it has supposedly contracted. We could also say radiating energy is expansive relative to the source and contractive relative to its target. In any case if heat is not produced I think it is safe to assume the forces involved are electrostatic in nature, as everything is.

You're exactly right. Ice cubes are cold and expand as they get colder. Water is the most dense at 4C, etc... and other anomalous phenomena attributed to water. I'm aware of electrostatic cooling but there may be something else at play. I'll "expand" on that later. LOL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 09:00:54 AM
@quiman & All

Interesting indeed as I have worked with electrostatic cooling for some 5 years now, it is still a thrill to see how many different ways it can be invoked.

For a starter for those that are not familiar with the effect you could start at http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm and a google in the subject will bring up many interesting papers, it seems welding is familiar with the effect. I am also aware that NASA has and is doing research in this area.

Now a simple question, the cooling in the video appears to go down at a near constant rate, but once the arc is stopped it at once returns to the 77' mark, I'm not understanding why we wuld not see a ramp back up to the 77', if surfaces are cooled how do they at once obtain instant ambient temperature?

Thanks, forever interesting.....

Good question. The only thing that can be obtained from this test is that the before and after temp, regardless of any possible goofy phenomena with the pulsing and thermometer is that there is no net gain in temp no matter how long I run it. That vid was only a few short seconds but even running it longer...and I stop it and measure temp, there is no gain. Others have commented on how the plug feels cool as well and didn't get hot. It is most interesting. :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 09:03:54 AM
@qiman
There are things happening in the spark which we don't fully understand. I was thinking, maybe the ir light from the ir temperature meter is being absorbed or manipulated or whatever, therefore it isn't showing the correct temperature. Maybe a low-tech temp-meter should be used, just to be sure it is really dropping.
Just a thought. 8)

(I see tinu asked the same)

Hi, in my own forum, I think I suggested the same. Anyone could get a regular mercury thermometer for taking temperatures. Tape the bulb tightly to the threads or J electrode of the plug, super glue whatever and just let the thing run, then see if the temp increases. That would be a great analog test that rules out any possibility of interference. Doesn't change the fact that the temp with the IR digital thermometer shows before and after (without spark running) temp is the same and doesn't increase.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 10, 2008, 09:15:27 AM
Hello all,let me ask you this.In capacitors circuit and I am pretty sure xboxs,the ignition coil must generate +ve hv for them to work,so,if like someone said earlier,most modern ignitions generate negative,is there any way to change that to positive?thanks all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 10:35:07 AM
I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Ben - maybe you should get prepared to eat that nail ...

As I understand it - what is required (after the initial HV low current spark) is a lower voltage high current discharge.  We don't actually know what voltage is needed for this secondary discharge - people are blowing up inverters because inverters are available off the shelf - but we haven't proved we need the voltage to be that high.  Some, including myself, have speculated about connected the 12V directly to the spark plug for the high current discharge.  (Remember - Graneau have given good science that it is Amps that blows the water apart - so at this stage in the process, unnessary voltage multiplication at the expense of current is counter-productive).

So very likely, a rudimentary coil of few turns is exactly what we need ... perhaps he is using multiple discharges at lower and lower volts (with higher and higher current) ...

Don't sneeze at this simple coil arrangement.  In this thread we have no idea who the real information or the real disinformation is coming from.  These coils are so easy a child could build - so try them!

Electrostatic cooling ... wow.  I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 10, 2008, 10:41:46 AM
My experiments are going pretty good here. I am using the updated circuit that Luc has posted.
(this one: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5024.0;attach=24621;image)

Thanks for posting this simple, easy to understand diagram Luc.

These are the spark plugs I am using:
http://www.amazon.com/E3-Spark-Plugs-Engine-Garden/dp/B000BPOI8O

My multi-meter showed that they have little to no resistance, so there is no need to modify these. For people who are looking to buy plugs, my advice is this: Use either lawn mower or racing plugs. Neither one should have resistance, but check for resistance and exchange the plug until you have one that has no resistance. Luc, if you could mention this in the first post it might save some people some $ on plugs :). Also, try to find plugs that have more surface area like a firestorm plug. The E3 plug has a little C shape at the end of its cathode, so maybe this helps...

Today I increased the gap size and that made a big difference. I think the plug was originally around 10 thousandths, but once I moved it up to 80, then we were really seeing some nice sparks. 80 thousandths is a BIG gap size for a plug. My plug is clearly not designed with that kind of spacing in mind.

I've been thinking about how a water explosion could be possible... I don't know if we want to delve into much theory in this thread or not. I think it should be pointed out though, that gasoline (or hydrogen) explodes because of a chain reaction. I don't see how this could happen with water, but maybe the pressure from the piston makes the explosion possible. I assume all this and more has been discussed in the s1r replication group which I have not been a part of :(. Maybe the process is like the japanese van that jymboche linked to. The area around the plug would turn to plasma and explode, while the rest expands from the heat.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 11:13:08 AM
Ben - maybe you should get prepared to eat that nail ...

As I understand it - what is required (after the initial HV low current spark) is a lower voltage high current discharge.  We don't actually know what voltage is needed for this secondary discharge - people are blowing up inverters because inverters are available off the shelf - but we haven't proved we need the voltage to be that high.  Some, including myself, have speculated about connected the 12V directly to the spark plug for the high current discharge.  (Remember - Graneau have given good science that it is Amps that blows the water apart - so at this stage in the process, unnessary voltage multiplication at the expense of current is counter-productive).

So very likely, a rudimentary coil of few turns is exactly what we need ... perhaps he is using multiple discharges at lower and lower volts (with higher and higher current) ...

Don't sneeze at this simple coil arrangement.  In this thread we have no idea who the real information or the real disinformation is coming from.  These coils are so easy a child could build - so try them!

Electrostatic cooling ... wow.  I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...

Hi greendoor,

A 12V battery is lower voltage but why do you assume it can provide a higher current than a capacitor? If you think that this the case then you are mistaken. Although only for a very short period, a capacitor can easily discharge energy with currents in the thousands of amps. A battery's only advantage here is that it can deliver a high current for a long period of time. But this is of no advantage in this process and has quite the opposite effect of wasting energy. In fact, to do what you are suggesting, simply take any of the previous inverter circuits described in this thread and replace the inverter and capacitor with 2 or 3 12 volts batteries in series. Now reduce the spark plug gap  as small as possible without touching. The circuit will now work and the batteries' current will flow through the arc but it will continue to arc continuously like an arc welder until the batteries' voltage drops. The spark plug gap ends will glow red and if you spray water on this arc there will be no explosion. So energy will be wasted in such a process and you will get very little, if any, water to explode.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 11:40:18 AM
I would like to point out one simple fact:

I can make this effect with a variac or inverter DISCONNECTED/ISOLATED (both terminals isolated) from the capacitor so this rules out 100% for a fact that I am getting any extra high current surge from the power supply.

Some want to believe it can come from a capacitor...(once it is discharged).

What S1R shows with some inverter touching the plug off and on through a relay and then ignition coil off/on...whatever he is showing is NOT the same method as Luc has found. So some are automatically thinking that there is some surge from the power supply to make this spark based on Luc's circuit because of some crossed idea that it is supposed to be the same thing?

Also, has anyone bothered to scope the function of the diode?

I see something that seems to almost be deliberately IGNORED here. My power supply is 100% separated from the capacitor on BOTH terminals when the capacitor is discharged into the spark plug. That means 100% as an undeniable FACT, there is no current surge from my variac or inverter going to the coil when the HV pulse leaves the ignition coil.

So that leaves the capacitor as the only thing connected to the circuit as far as input. Once the capacitor is discharged, there isn't enough to provide any current surge! With a 3uf capacitor, that is 0.0384 joules of work possible (with no losses) if it is charged to 160volts. That is LESS THAN 0.04 watt seconds worth of energy...and if using a 3uf cap, once it is discharged and claiming that there is some current surge from the cap..again AFTER it is discharged will have some current surge that assists this spark...even with a 47uf cap at 160v, that is 0.6 watt seconds or 0.6 joules...and AFTER discharge there is enough for some mysterious current surge??? LOL Well, again...is this DISINFORMATION...there might be enough energy left in the cap AFTER discharge to may raise 1 hair on a flea's leg, but to assist in some robust spark on a plug like we're witnessing???

1. Why do I get the effect without any power supply connected to my cap?
2. AFTER the cap is discharged, why do I get the effect still and do you honestly think there is enough in the cap to give some current surge to cause this effect?
3. HOW DOES A DIODE WORK?
4. Think about VOLTAGE POTENTIAL..........where there is any kind of voltage...that potential is available EVERYWHERE instantaneously wherever it it is in contact with some kind of conductivity as long as it is not blocked. When the arc is happening, the HV potential is available at the exit of the HV diode...what does that tell you?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mr.uu on July 10, 2008, 11:44:20 AM
Hello all!

Only reading this forum for years, finally my first writing!  :o

Probably a bit offtopic, so sorry for that first...but:
Did we finally (re-)discover the "holy grail" of electronics here?
Powering a single "device" with two powersources. From one drawn high voltage, low current- from the other low voltage, high current.
Here joining them together just before the airgap (sparkplug).

What if you join them together just before a coil? Or an ordinary light-bulb?
How would then the effective power accumulate (From voltage x current (U*I) as Ohm?s Law says)?
If we draw from the hv-source 10 watts (100volts*0.1amps), and also 10 watts from the lv-source (0.1volts*100amps), would the effective combined power on the lightbulb be 20 watts or 10000watts?
Could this somebody try to verify? With an ordinary lightbulb?
Is there even a possibility to "create" such small voltage x huge amperage powersource?

Or is this all garbage? If so, then sorry for that...

Another thing regarding this circuit:

I am certain, that a circuit utilising resonance (between coil and capacitor) would undoubtly need less amount of energy than not in resonance.
Anybody considered that yet? Is it even possible to utilize in this circuit?
Of course this would mean fixed RPM within an ICE, but it maybe a possility in an ICE/generator setup with fixed RPM...


All the best to all of you guys, especially the few who do actually build and test things!





 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 11:49:05 AM
Thanks Ossie ... I was just speculating, because I know a battery can deliver huge peak current (e.g. starter motor).  A lead-acid battery is kinda like a large capacitor ... The problem you describe would seem to be solvable with switching??  I'm just thinking that any inverter or coil arrangement for voltage multiplication (or division??) might be a waste of power, if the Ampere force is the operating force.

Anyhoo - a random quote I just pulled from googling around ... I find it very enlightening:

Quote
To understand the effect you have to first realize that heat is space 'wiggling' in place. Then you also have to realize that an electric discharge is basically space realigning itself. So, a violent "moving" of space that allows the heat to instantly redistribute. Just like thunderbolts cool down...

Is he right?  I suspect yes ...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 11:57:47 AM
I would like to point out one simple fact:

I can make this effect with a variac or inverter DISCONNECTED/ISOLATED (both terminals isolated) from the capacitor so this rules out 100% for a fact that I am getting any extra high current surge from the power supply.

Some want to believe it can come from a capacitor...(once it is discharged).

What S1R shows with some inverter touching the plug off and on through a relay and then ignition coil off/on...whatever he is showing is NOT the same method as Luc has found. So some are automatically thinking that there is some surge from the power supply to make this spark based on Luc's circuit because of some crossed idea that it is supposed to be the same thing?

Also, has anyone bothered to scope the function of the diode?

I see something that seems to almost be deliberately IGNORED here. My power supply is 100% separated from the capacitor on BOTH terminals when the capacitor is discharged into the spark plug. That means 100% as an undeniable FACT, there is no current surge from my variac or inverter going to the coil when the HV pulse leaves the ignition coil.

So that leaves the capacitor as the only thing connected to the circuit as far as input. Once the capacitor is discharged, there isn't enough to provide any current surge! With a 3uf capacitor, that is 0.0384 joules of work possible (with no losses) if it is charged to 160volts. That is LESS THAN 0.04 watt seconds worth of energy...and if using a 3uf cap, once it is discharged and claiming that there is some current surge from the cap..again AFTER it is discharged will have some current surge that assists this spark...even with a 47uf cap at 160v, that is 0.6 watt seconds or 0.6 joules...and AFTER discharge there is enough for some mysterious current surge??? LOL Well, again...is this DISINFORMATION...there might be enough energy left in the cap AFTER discharge to may raise 1 hair on a flea's leg, but to assist in some robust spark on a plug like we're witnessing???

1. Why do I get the effect without any power supply connected to my cap?
2. AFTER the cap is discharged, why do I get the effect still and do you honestly think there is enough in the cap to give some current surge to cause this effect?
3. HOW DOES A DIODE WORK?
4. Think about VOLTAGE POTENTIAL..........where there is any kind of voltage...that potential is available EVERYWHERE instantaneously wherever it it is in contact with some kind of conductivity as long as it is not blocked. When the arc is happening, the HV potential is available at the exit of the HV diode...what does that tell you?
Qiman - seriously thank you.  I have been quoting the Graneau paper as being the source that states (with apparant authority) that it is the Ampere force that is involved.  Maybe Graneau contains disinformation?  I don't anyone at this stage - and the fact this paper is freely available makes it suspect (even though it seems to be waving abundant free energy under our noses).

I am looking into the Electrostatic Cooling effect - and so far Voltage seems to be the key effect, not Amps so much.  So maybe I am the blind trying to lead the blind (almost certainly).
My apologies.  The one thing I am certain of, and have stated many times, is that we need to find both the minimum voltage required, and the minimum current required - in order to reduce total Power input, to maximise total Power available. 

I hope to build some devices very soon and report findings.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 12:38:20 PM
Greendoor,

The input of the diode is touching the low voltage +. The output of the diode is touching the HV+. Anytime the voltage on the output side of a diode is HIGHER than the input, the DIODE REMAINS CLOSED.

When is there less voltage potential on the diode's output than the input side? When does the voltage drop below the input side? When the cap is discharged, think about how how much is left and what that diode is.

When does the other side of the diode drop BELOW the input side of the diode in order to open that diode?

Until then....the diode remains closed.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 12:43:22 PM
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 01:06:31 PM
Hello all!

Only reading this forum for years, finally my first writing!  :o

Probably a bit offtopic, so sorry for that first...but:
Did we finally (re-)discover the "holy grail" of electronics here?
Powering a single "device" with two powersources. From one drawn high voltage, low current- from the other low voltage, high current.
Here joining them together just before the airgap (sparkplug).

What if you join them together just before a coil? Or an ordinary light-bulb?
How would then the effective power accumulate (From voltage x current (U*I) as Ohm?s Law says)?
If we draw from the hv-source 10 watts (100volts*0.1amps), and also 10 watts from the lv-source (0.1volts*100amps), would the effective combined power on the lightbulb be 20 watts or 10000watts?
Could this somebody try to verify? With an ordinary lightbulb?
Is there even a possibility to "create" such small voltage x huge amperage powersource?

Or is this all garbage? If so, then sorry for that...

Another thing regarding this circuit:

I am certain, that a circuit utilising resonance (between coil and capacitor) would undoubtly need less amount of energy than not in resonance.
Anybody considered that yet? Is it even possible to utilize in this circuit?
Of course this would mean fixed RPM within an ICE, but it maybe a possility in an ICE/generator setup with fixed RPM...


All the best to all of you guys, especially the few who do actually build and test things!


I'm not sure what you've been reading here - but your conclusions are nothing like what i've learned here ...

As far as i'm concerned, there is no secret power in the spark.  Most people here seem to be using the brute force approach - maxium volts, maximum amps - large power input, for hopefully enough power output to drive a piston down a cylinder ...

The power i'm interested in is in the water.  And it would appear to be in the molecular bonds holding water together in a liquid state.  By atomising the water with a spark - the water suddenly has less molecular bond energy - and because energy is neither created nor destroyed - the energy that was previously holding the molecules together is transformed into violent kinetic energy.  And apparantly the temperature drops too - which I don't understand yet.  Heat is kinetic energy - but obviously there are different forms of kinetic energy.  For example - it's possible to freeze something (reducing heat energy) and accelerate it (increasing kinetic energy) at the same time - so different effects are obviously at work here. 

The subject of electrostatic cooling seems to be linked here.  If objects can be suddenly cooled with the application of high voltage with minimal current - it would appear that massive overunity heat engines should be possible.  I'm thinking this water arc effect is ultimately a heat engine.  But I could be barking mad.

I'm just looking for the best strategy to build a device to test these wild theories ...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 01:20:57 PM
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.
Thank you again!  Light bulbs going on .. you are so right ... the maths of Power  = Volts * Current is fairly solid though ... so I don't know how much this changes anything. 

I have huge holes in my knowledge about electricity.  I always equate it back to fluid flow, which I understand a little better.  Volts = Pressure, Current = Flow.  Together, they equal Power.  The maths sort of works - but there are things about electricity that don't stack up to this simple understanding.  For example, electron drift is much slower than current flow - so if it isn't electron flow, what is it??  Are amps real?  Can they be faked, without requiring electron flow?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 01:28:20 PM
Quote
There are three conventional ways to transfer heat: Conduction, Convection, and Radiation. Now there is a fourth way, Electrostatic Cooling (ESC), that has been discovered and patented by Oscar C. Blomgren (Sr. & Jr.) and others. Negative ion probes are placed near a heated object, which is grounded. When high voltage is applied, there is a dramatic drop in temperature. This extremely simple system reduces or eliminates the need for other methods, and it uses very low power and is very efficient. It also facilitates heating when applied in reverse!

This has to be a factor in water spark effects.  Obviously polarity is hugely important.  I intend to experiment with all options.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 10, 2008, 01:48:16 PM
Thank you again!  Light bulbs going on .. you are so right ... the maths of Power  = Volts * Current is fairly solid though ... so I don't know how much this changes anything. 

That depends if you trust Ampere's law as being the *complete* and factual explanation, or just something that can't be disproved by tools that can (or can't) measure it.  The link somewhere else in one of these threads for "Note_on_Electrodynamics.pdf" would suggest there are errors made that have held us back for many decades, which itself would be a brilliant use of disinformation, because everyone believes Ampere's law because they know it's "fact" as they would say.   Me I don't know, I'm still trying to assimilate it all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: troyd1 on July 10, 2008, 03:32:13 PM
Testing idea: remove the tab at the bottom of the spark plug and put 2 with the electrodes facing each other. As you space them, you should get a larger spark. Maybe the engine needs 2 plugs using only the electrodes to complete the circuit. I just thought of mounting 2 plugs facing each other as described and finding the the most effective gap and then try putting a little soap in some water, dipping a bubble blowing ring, putting it in the spark gap and see what will happen. I know this is out there, but with no ability to do any testing at the moment, thought I would throw it out there in case someone saw some merit in this.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 10, 2008, 04:01:01 PM
I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...

That was not my intention and I apologize for that!
All I want is a clean and coherent discussion; otherwise the whole thread will quickly go down the drain.
Best regards,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 04:11:10 PM
@ninjadaniel : I highly recommend the voltage doubler!  ;D The voltage doubler will take the place of the bridge.

@whopper1967 : On a magneto you can not change the polarity of the spark, so you need to make a pickup coil and use it to trigger a automotive coil added on to a mower motor. But in a car, just swap the plus for the minus on the coil, that will change the polarity.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 10, 2008, 04:40:00 PM
I'm not sure what you've been reading here - but your conclusions are nothing like what i've learned here ...

As far as i'm concerned, there is no secret power in the spark.  Most people here seem to be using the brute force approach - maxium volts, maximum amps - large power input, for hopefully enough power output to drive a piston down a cylinder ...

The power i'm interested in is in the water.  And it would appear to be in the molecular bonds holding water together in a liquid state.  By atomising the water with a spark - the water suddenly has less molecular bond energy - and because energy is neither created nor destroyed - the energy that was previously holding the molecules together is transformed into violent kinetic energy.  And apparantly the temperature drops too - which I don't understand yet.  Heat is kinetic energy - but obviously there are different forms of kinetic energy.  For example - it's possible to freeze something (reducing heat energy) and accelerate it (increasing kinetic energy) at the same time - so different effects are obviously at work here. 

The subject of electrostatic cooling seems to be linked here.  If objects can be suddenly cooled with the application of high voltage with minimal current - it would appear that massive overunity heat engines should be possible.  I'm thinking this water arc effect is ultimately a heat engine.  But I could be barking mad.

I'm just looking for the best strategy to build a device to test these wild theories ...


Hi greendoor, I very much agree with you! ... too much time spent on the study of the spark and not enough on the role the water plays here.

I think we may find that the spark would be very different if it was in a non humid environment,  maybe much like lightning in a dry summer night.

I agree with you that the water seems to be a very important part and should have just as much attention as the spark.

After all I did call this effect Water Power and not spark power!

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 10, 2008, 04:42:20 PM
Hi Gang,

Boy we have a fiesty, honest and deep thinking group here.  In spite of BS and doubts, I am continuing working on my modified motor to test all this out.  Motor is finished, now have to mount, flywheel, electronics, timing, plumbing for water.....Lot of work even trying to get a motor to run and I'm trying to do it in a 6th floor condo and my closet shop!...

I have lots of pictures of head construction, secondary injection port, etc.  But one pic. attached here is good enough for now.

Picture below is motor with ruler and oh yes, a nail ready to eat............

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 05:12:07 PM


Hi bumfuzzled,

Aren't you making an assumption that it "puts out" this voltage and amperage? If it were so, wouldn't it be putting out 90 kilowatts? This is enough power for 9 or 10 houses if it was continuous. I think you will find that it uses a pulsed current of 2 amps for a 12 volt system and will put out 45,000 volts but at very little current. At 100% efficiency it will only put out 533uAmps (micoamps) at 45,000 volts. A microamp is one millionth of an amp...

Regards,

Ossie


It doesn't say it DRAWS 2 amps, it says it PRODUCES a 2 amp spark at 45,000v in the catalog. I'm not saying it will and I don't have the $166.30 to buy it and try it but MSD has been one of the top ignition companies in racing for years, I don't see them putting out BS for no reason. i understand the power output calculation but this is for a few microseconds not continuous.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 10, 2008, 06:36:37 PM
@ all,
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/doppler/mach1.html
?Not only were the water vapor, density and temperature just right??
Please comment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: poynt99 on July 10, 2008, 06:37:32 PM
Greendoor,

The input of the diode is touching the low voltage +. The output of the diode is touching the HV+. Anytime the voltage on the output side of a diode is HIGHER than the input, the DIODE REMAINS CLOSED.

When is there less voltage potential on the diode's output than the input side? When does the voltage drop below the input side? When the cap is discharged, think about how how much is left and what that diode is.

When does the other side of the diode drop BELOW the input side of the diode in order to open that diode?

Until then....the diode remains closed.



qiman, let me see if i know what you're getting at:

it's simple, the high current from the diode side does not come into play until the reverse inductive spike from the coil secondary occurs, which is NEGATIVE relative to the diode output. this then will allow the diode to forward bias and fully discharge the cap.

;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 10, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
@xbox hacker
Which would be why capacitor70 circuit looks as it does,so if I was to use your circuit with an automotive coil,then the grounding issue will not be a problem,correct?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 08:20:46 PM
@xbox hacker
Which would be why capacitor70 circuit looks as it does,so if I was to use your circuit with an automotive coil,then the grounding issue will not be a problem,correct?

Do you want to start with a mower or a car?
With a mower you need to lose the magneto(if you have -VE), and replace it with a pickup like cap70, then use a automotive ignition coil with + to + and pulse the - from the pick up...you should get +VE  :D

Car...just make sure the coil has the + on the + and you should be good to go.

I will be putting the pickup setup on my motor this weekend (or sooner  ;)) But ofcourse that will change the timeing, so that might take a bit to get it right.

Yes...then no problems... ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 10, 2008, 08:58:35 PM
Do you want to start with a mower or a car?
With a mower you need to lose the magneto(if you have -VE), and replace it with a pickup like cap70, then use a automotive ignition coil with + to + and pulse the - from the pick up...you should get +VE  :D

Car...just make sure the coil has the + on the + and you should be good to go.

I will be putting the pickup setup on my motor this weekend (or sooner  ;)) But ofcourse that will change the timeing, so that might take a bit to get it right.

Yes...then no problems... ;D

Car.. ??? Depends on what type of car engine. Newer computerized car.. Very doubtful. Older car with points, condenser and adjustable timing. Possible... Which is more valuable to you that could be ruined experimenting.  ???  Mower/generator engine.. Couple hundred $$.. Car.. couple of thousand $$ and lack of transportation... I do like Ben's approach. Small hobby engine. Very simple and elegant. If it fails he can still drive and he can still mow the lawn  ;) Of course he lives in a condo so I suspect lawn mowing is taken care of by someone else.  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 10, 2008, 09:04:12 PM
Hi Gang,

Boy we have a fiesty, honest and deep thinking group here.  In spite of BS and doubts, I am continuing working on my modified motor to test all this out.  Motor is finished, now have to mount, flywheel, electronics, timing, plumbing for water.....Lot of work even trying to get a motor to run and I'm trying to do it in a 6th floor condo and my closet shop!...

I have lots of pictures of head construction, secondary injection port, etc.  But one pic. attached here is good enough for now.
Ben

Geezz  Ben. I think you could just run that size engine with that size plug on the humidity of your breath.  ;D  Could you not find a bigger plug.  ::)  If this works that means the plug I will have to get my Briggs engine to run on will be the size of a 20oz coke bottle  :D




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 10, 2008, 09:21:09 PM
Do you want to start with a mower or a car?
With a mower you need to lose the magneto(if you have -VE), and replace it with a pickup like cap70, then use a automotive ignition coil with + to + and pulse the - from the pick up...you should get +VE  :D

Car...just make sure the coil has the + on the + and you should be good to go.

I will be putting the pickup setup on my motor this weekend (or sooner  ;)) But ofcourse that will change the timeing, so that might take a bit to get it right.

Yes...then no problems... ;D

@ xbox hacker
Just remember:
Even if you put a pick-up on the magneto to trigger an automotive ignition coil;
OR you put points on the output shaft to trigger the automotive coil,
you ARE going to STILL be producing a "waste spark"....
and by changing the timing anywhere past TDC, you are going to be placing that "waste spark" into the Intake Stroke.  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 09:29:05 PM
@hydrocontrol: You can pick up an old car on craigslist for under $200 ..LOL And as for the mower motor, harbor freight  has one that is BRAND NEW 5HP vertical shaft for $99, just the other day (intown store) PULL START  :P

Then you can place it on a cinder block and hold it with your hands while someone starts it...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@goldenequity: I had thought about that, but i just want to get it to "pickup" first...lol Also i was think about a post i saw sometime ago, about useing the piston top as the ground point...gonna try that too  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on July 10, 2008, 09:34:52 PM
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
An analogue instrument with moving iron measures induction caused by current in a stationary coil against the force of a spring.
A moving coil instrument measures the magnetic field caused from a current against the force of a spring.
Even a slope or dual slope A/D converter buffers the input voltage and measures the time it takes the buffered voltage (converted to current source by a resistor) charges a cap to a given voltage.
A successive approximation or flash ADC  compares voltages - but thats of no meaning.
(OK, seems we are using voltage comparators in modern equippement - but the same can be achieved with current comparators - if you build your own ones)

There is some tendency in EE to build "voltage" driven systems due to the fact that they are easier to build or to measure. With current system - measuring means always opening a loop - in "voltage" system just tapping with a probe on a point is enough. (as long as the involved currents are very small compared to the losses caused in the conductors).


voltage vs. current is always a design flavour.

There is no direction in ohms law.

With the same proof you did I will state now that nobody ever measured a single volt.
Volt is only derived from the current which is caused by conecting a voltage to a given resistor...

rgds.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 09:47:13 PM
@Ben: Just curious....what about timing and ignition firing?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 10, 2008, 10:27:02 PM
@hydrocontrol: You can pick up an old car on craigslist for under $200 ..LOL And as for the mower motor, harbor freight  has one that is BRAND NEW 5HP vertical shaft for $99, just the other day (intown store) PULL START  :P

Then you can place it on a cinder block and hold it with your hands while someone starts it...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@goldenequity: I had thought about that, but i just want to get it to "pickup" first...lol Also i was think about a post i saw sometime ago, about useing the piston top as the ground point...gonna try that too  ;D

 :D :D :D I have seen those $200 cars.. I might as well put wheels on a coffin.  :D :D :D :D Besides which ones is easier to get rid of after experimenting.. A dead car is a rather large yard attraction. ;D
Pull start engine for experimenting.. naw.. That is why I got an electric start Briggs. It did cost a bit more than $99 but it is a bit smaller to hide from the wife if things fail..  ;D ;D Now to figure out how to get only one spark. My Briggs has both a vertical and a horizontal output side shaft. The horizontal shaft is used for self propelled things like mowers and snow blowers. I will have to see if the horizontal shaft has some relation to the vertical shaft. Like 2-1 or 4-1. I might be able to use that shaft for timing. If I could only be so lucky.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 10:41:27 PM
Quote
Pull start engine for experimenting.. naw..

just use a drill with a socket on it on the flywheel....lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Yucca on July 10, 2008, 11:25:24 PM
A video that looks very much like Graneu experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O27hq1NC_U
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Unicron on July 11, 2008, 12:58:05 AM
@hydrocontrol

Can't you use some sort of small induction/pickup coil on the original sparkplug cable to trigger the spark?
or are you removing the original ignition system from the motor for less dragg?
(i know there are some tachometers that work like that)


or wil this also lead to a ghost spark?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: winner on July 11, 2008, 01:23:05 AM
A video that looks very much like Graneu experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O27hq1NC_U

Yucca, WOW! Yeah, I've heard stories of experimenters shooting holes through their ceilings with water blasts like this. Gotta be careful, you can poke your eye out, kid! And, everyone, welcome to the Age of Aquarius!  ;D
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 11, 2008, 01:23:10 AM
@hydrocontrol

Can't you use some sort of small induction coil on the original sparkplug cable to trigger the spark?
or are you removing the original ignition system from the motor for less dragg?

or wil this also lead to a ghost spark?

I was confused before. I dug out my engine and it is a electric start Tecumseh 6hp (not Briggs) with a side PTO that appears to be 4:1. That would mean that all I would have to do is add a wheel to the PTO that has two magnets on it to trigger an external plasma ignition setup. This way I can get rid of the ghost spark and still adjust the timing. This may work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 11, 2008, 02:26:05 AM
Hi Everyone,

This is both ON TOPIC and sort of OFF TOPIC

ON TOPIC:  We need to continue our present direction in designing, improving and applying the plasma spark to water to release the energy in it necessary to drive a piston down in an internal combustion engine, AS WELL AS THE MULTITUDE OF OTHER APPLICATIONS to which this technology can be applied.  We are definitely on to something here with LUC, Ossie, qiman, capacitor70, XBox, myself and others actually doing experiments and coming up with real results.

Since Luc started this thread, many positive results and forward direction has occurred.  I will be doing more of my own tests this weekend on testing a variation of the plasma circuits in here already and will post all results.  We are definitely on the right course of action because all of a sudden, S1R is coming out of the woodwork again, I believe to still attempt to lay claim to this idea, even though it was actually done in the 1950's by Adam Crawford in Scotland!

I truly believe S1R found something about Adam Crawford and then created a forum 3 years ago so the likes of us can actually figure it out for him.

Slightly OFF TOPIC:
I am not calling anyone a LIAR, but a few things don't add up.  S1R's write up description and posts on the Yahoo Waterfuel forum said the main coil was uninsulated BARE COPPER WIRE, and two coils using stranded insulated wire. 

I am degreed in Physics, but not an electronics guru by any stretch of the imagination, but even my 6th grade science teacher showed this in his electricity experiment, that electricity follows the path of least resistance.  Whether it is a straight piece of wire or coiled up a billion times, isn't BARE WIRE essentially a DEAD SHORT between windings, and therefore no different than a straight piece of wire (not counting the resistance per foot of copper)?  That was a rhetorical statement... LOL

Then today, S1R posted on the Yahoo Waterfuel forum, "the main coil has black tape on it, as well as "the other black coil."  The original statement, however said the other 2 coils were insulated stranded wire.  Looking at SIR's own picture very closely, shows the black coils are NOT black tape covering BARE WIRES ( I still can't get over the bare wire thing... LOL), but looks like standard factory insulated wire. 

OK, pick a story and go with it, S1R!

Then a nail just thrown in the air space of the coil as opposed to the wire being wound tightly around the nail, also would be a dead short across the bare wire windings as it simply laid on top of the bare wire windings.  Certainly one of those conditions would cause a dead short!

Years ago, I had a bad ignition coil on my car.  The primary showed 1 Ohm resistance which was OK and within the manufacturer's specifications.  The secondary coil however measured only 4K Ohms, but should have been on the order of 10K to 12K ohms, far below manufacturer's specifications.  That meant a some of the secondary windings burned (melted) and created a short between the windings resulting in greatly reduced resistance.

Then we have the best statement of all:  The coils slowed down the electricity enough so that the timing on the Briggs and Straton engine (funny how Briggs and Straton abbreviated is BS) did not have to be changed.

Again, I am not an electronics guru, but doesn't electricity travel at the same speed, regardless as to what it is traveling through?  I do know there are timer/delay circuits one can design and create, but isn't that simply using components that allow for charge/discharge times and other components that vary the time of delivery of the electricity, but doesn't change the actual speed of electricity itself? Sorry, rhetorical again!  LOL

Regardless, these three coils certainly cannot "slow down" the speed of electricity to that extent!

OK, so in summation, we have Bare Copper Wire as a main coil, but then recanted to being covered in black tape, the other black coil also having black tape around it.  But S1R's original description said the 2nd and 3rd coils were insulated stranded wire, but then "the inventor's" own picture clearly showing otherwise (unless he's the best in the world at wrapping black tape around a wire to look exactly like factory made insulation), we have an inverter, but not really, we have 3 coils wound so that they "slow down" electricity enough to the extent where adjusting the timing on a BS engine (I love that) wasn't necessary, etc., etc., etc...

Again, I am not calling anyone a LIAR, but... draw your own conclusions and decide for yourself, but I am literally ROFLMFAO!

Back ON Topic:  For this reason, we need to continue on our current path and KEEP FOCUSED.  I believe we are close to the next steps.  As Luc has stated all along, we need to keep this all Public Domain for the betterment of us all.  The group of people I am working with have already agreed to make everything we do, success, failures and achievements totally PUBLIC for everyone here, on other forums and to have it available to everyone!  This is too important to keep any of it secret!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 11, 2008, 02:53:14 AM
I am degreed in Physics, but not an electronics guru by any stretch of the imagination, but even my 6th grade science teacher showed this in his electricity experiment, that electricity follows the path of least resistance.  Whether it is a straight piece of wire or coiled up a billion times, isn't BARE WIRE essentially a DEAD SHORT between windings, and therefore no different than a straight piece of wire (not counting the resistance per foot of copper)?  That was a rhetorical statement... LOL
.
.

<snip>
.
.

Again, I am not an electronics guru, but doesn't electricity travel at the same speed, regardless as to what it is traveling through?  Regards,
Geo


Hi Geo,

Despite you calling me a "crapster", I'm going to lend a hand here and try to add an angle to this.  I'm no electronics person either, but I've learned on this thread that an air insulation gap will provide insulation for 1-3Kv per mm gap.  Although it says no insulation (to which I interpreted that as no plastic insulation), perhaps there is an air gap/spacing in the coil windings which acts as a voltage limiter, so once the voltage reaches a ballpark area (of say 1-3Kv) the arc would short across the coil, and the remaining turns of the coil would be unused(?)  Seems a poor design, but perhaps it's enough to serve a purpose.

As for the speed of electricity, no it doesn't travel at the same speed through any medium.  I learned this from managing computer networks in the late 80's early 90's.  We would have LAN's using various types of co-axial cable, which would be a straight backbone design with terminators at each end.  We would know that there was a break in a cable somewhere which could be hundreds of metres long, and to trace that we would have to take a 1m piece of that specific co-ax, and using a box called a Lanalizer, work out the Velocity Propogation of a signal over that 1m piece of co-ax.  Once we knew it's vp, we could then send a signal down the network cable, and see how long it took for a reflection to occur (which is where there was a break in the cable - normally the terminators on the end of the cable would absorb this and keep the signal noise to an acceptable level), and using the two we could work out how far down the wire to a reasonable degree of accuracy the break was.  Different mixes of copper/gold etc propogate at different rates.  It's probably a moot point in this application as the differences are small, but they are there.

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 11, 2008, 02:59:38 AM
Back ON Topic:  For this reason, we need to continue on our current path and KEEP FOCUSED.  I believe we are close to the next steps.  As Luc has stated all along, we need to keep this all Public Domain for the betterment of us all.  The group of people I am working with have already agreed to make everything we do, success, failures and achievements totally PUBLIC for everyone here, on other forums and to have it available to everyone!  This is too important to keep any of it secret!

Regards,
Geo
You are right. It would be great if we can get this going. Some times things need to get shaken up.
Got my first step done. Tecumseh engine mounted on table/ rack. Next I need to get some sort of flywheel. Maybe a large pulley.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 11, 2008, 03:05:01 AM
Off topic.
We would know that there was a break in a cable somewhere which could be hundreds of metres long, and to trace that we would have to take a 1m peice of that specific co-ax, and using a box called a Lanalizer, work out the Velocity Propogation of a signal over that 1m piece of co-ax.  Once we knew it's vp, we could then send a signal down the network cable, and see how long it took for a reflection to occur (which is where there was a break in the cable - normally the terminators on the end of the cable would absorb this and keep the signal noise to an acceptable level), and using the two we could work out how far down the wire to a reasonable degree of accuracy the break was.  Different mixes of copper/gold etc propogate at different rates.  It's probably a moot point in this application as the differences are small, but they are there.
Shiver
The local electronics store actually has this cool device that you hook up one end of a cable and it tells you exactly how long the cable is down to the fractions of inches just for the purpose of finding breaks in cables. Of course it did cost $ 400.00 but it was pretty cool.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 11, 2008, 03:27:59 AM
@geovel56
Quote
Whether it is a straight piece of wire or coiled up a billion times, isn't BARE WIRE essentially a DEAD SHORT between windings, and therefore no different than a straight piece of wire (not counting the resistance per foot of copper)?  That was a rhetorical statement... LOL
In conventional current yes, Tesla said his radiant energy was based on "surface area", the voltage rise based on sq/in's of conductor ;)

Quote
Then a nail just thrown in the air space of the coil as opposed to the wire being wound tightly around the nail, also would be a dead short across the bare wire windings as it simply laid on top of the bare wire windings.  Certainly one of those conditions would cause a dead short!
This is a loose coupling and it may be done for a very good reason and if you model the magnetic field you may find he is looking for the "edge" of the field where the rate of change is highest in a "static" field in oscillation within itself--- there is no collapse.

Quote
Again, I am not an electronics guru, but doesn't electricity travel at the same speed, regardless as to what it is traveling through?
I guess that might depend on whether the energy travelled "through" or "on the surface" of the conductor. As well if the magnetic field of a conventional current was not the energy carrier but a means for another energy to move on the current in an oscillitory manner then the speed limitation may not apply. If you want to do extraordinary things you have to do things out of the ordinary.

I don't mean to knitpick your post I am just saying many things are not as they appear, fields have geometries and propeties not taken into account, here is a good example-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chladni
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Goat on July 11, 2008, 04:04:56 AM
@Yucca


That video you posted is very relevant thanks! 

I once connected the charging side of a bedini wheel and charged up a bank of capacitors to 100+ Volts doing arc tests with graphite brushes in a 1 ounce shot glass of olive oil, the discharge sparks were great until I noticed no more spark because the wire came off the cap and by the time I connected it back the voltage had climbed to over 1,000 Volts and KABOOM!!!  The oil shot up nearly 6 feet high and with a loud sound so I have no doubt someone could run an engine if there's enough engineering and power :)

Kudos to you all, carry on :)
Paul

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 11, 2008, 04:16:05 AM
Your results will be different depending on how you charge the capacitor...hot or cold.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 11, 2008, 04:22:17 AM
voltage vs. current is always a design flavour.
There is no direction in ohms law. With the same proof you did I will state now that nobody ever measured a single volt.
Volt is only derived from the current which is caused by conecting a voltage to a given resistor...

No, it is not a design flavour. Your statements appear to me to imply that you believe there is one type of current...hot electron current that will charge a coil.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: adamhy on July 11, 2008, 04:28:48 AM
Sorry I am new for electrical, I tried to replicate your test.  but one question: from where to get the output of the strobe light? I directly connect the two end of the light to the ignition coil, no thing happend, even the strobe light.

Thanks



Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 11, 2008, 04:30:28 AM
@All,

Interesting water atomization research:

http://www.powerlabs.org/waterarc.htm

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 11, 2008, 04:45:55 AM
I once connected the charging side of a bedini wheel and charged up a bank of capacitors to 100+ Volts doing arc tests with graphite brushes in a 1 ounce shot glass of olive oil, the discharge sparks were great until I noticed no more spark because the wire came off the cap and by the time I connected it back the voltage had climbed to over 1,000 Volts and KABOOM!!!  The oil shot up nearly 6 feet high and with a loud sound so I have no doubt someone could run an engine if there's enough engineering and power :)

Great work Paul, I'm glad to see you doing this. Bedini oscillators are the way to go...much faster charging. The way you are charging the cap can give you different results when discharging. Conventional thinking is that you need electrons piling on plates to charge a cap...that incorrect viewpoint is detrimental to sanity and has no place in science and electrical engineering...and I mention this in response to someone else.
------------------------------
Check this out please, everyone:
"Read pages 26-29 of this document:
Eric Dollard Notes on Dielectricity and Capacitance.
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991

"The misconception that capacitance is the accumulation of electrons has seriously distorted our view of dielectric phenomena.""
------------------------------

I agree with Luc that more effort needs to be put on the water and not just getting the spark...but what everyone is missing and this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whatever in the world S1R is up to, but the fuel you're putting into the coil is the capacitor's discharge-----WHAT CHARGED THE CAP---...that is also where at least some exploration needs to take place.

1. Electrons from closed loop hot electron current is NOT what charges a cap and isn't even required.
2. Voltage Potential alone can charge a cap without current.
3. A closed loop hot current connection will charge a cap but that doesn't mean it is from electron piling.
4. The discharge of capacitors depending on how they are charged make a difference in the effects depending on application...just like how a battery is charged cold or hot...makes a difference in what it runs...bulbs are brighter white than if charged with hot current, etc...
5. Charge a cap with a single wire connected to its terminals...discharge it..effects are different than if you charged it with "current."

Anyway, just something to consider.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 11, 2008, 05:13:13 AM
@Ben: Just curious....what about timing and ignition firing?

Hi Xbox

Will let you know in a few days when I get it going (If it does!) as I work in brief spurts of creativity......but definitely after TDC, probably between 30-35 degrees for the very short power pulse and best mechanical positioning of the piston/connecting rod/flywheel. 

Spent all afternoon chasing around town buying loose ends, doo dads, tubing, tanks, angle AL, base board to put all this together in a presentable complete motor...........There are dozens of little parts needed to make a working device not counting the big ticket items!  Have to build up a presentable string of insulated diodes on a board for the LV isolation string, (20 diodes in a row hanging in the air just won't hack it in a working motor) work out mounting for the IR detector and associated parts.mount for the motor, mount for the tank, position and attach all major components to the baseplate, etc, etc, etc..  Calculate the amount of keying material to give the proper dwell for the coil to get good spark.  A zillion little questions to answer, one at a time.....loose ends............arrrrgggghhhh.......

The final device must run right but must look "right" to be presentable to anyone but our old cat here in the condo......Junk and looking like junk is a bad way to start looking at a motor that runs on water!!!!

I will be using a circuit very similar to Ossie's, keying off the shaft with IR detector to SS Rly keying normal auto coil, LV supply via variable power supply to adjust power in the plasma from none to about 50J!  I really hope to run around 3-5J but time will tell......Basic test show I can run up to about 100 PPS but that is over kill......Just came out that way.  IF it runs, will post schematics and block diagrams, again is simple straight forward electronics, a real "nerd" would put a little micro in there and let it handle the whole job, but for experimental work, straight analog is enough.

By building this motor and burning the midnight oil thinking on what I was going to do and how it should work,  I actually have learned so much that I am already looking forward to the next one, Much better ways to do things with the injection!  Injection and power input into the plasma I believe is the key to variable power/rpm's.  But first things first, get this darn thing running!

It would do all of those fuzzy in basic transformer theory, to go read up on it.......Some statements about transformers and how they work as posted on this and other list make me turn green  when I read them........I will simply say I have never seen a High Voltage transformer with a solid metal core (nail which is a lousy core for those in the know)  and uninsulated wire in my life do anything/zilch/nada. It is to put it in a down south bucolic way "A dead ass short"..........get real!.  There are special transformers that do use surface area for voltage/current transformation but there is NEVER any real power gained in a transformer (always losses!) for many obvious reasons to even the most technically challenged!......You can change the voltage and current ratios in and out but you always get less power out of a transformer than you put in. There is NEVER a power gain in a transformer!!

For those that care and really want to learn go to:

http://www.electricianeducation.com/theory/electric_transformers.htm

Digest it and you will have a very good handle on what is going on in "real transformers".

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 11, 2008, 05:14:48 AM
A video that looks very much like Graneu experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O27hq1NC_U

Hi Yucca, very good find ;D ... this is a confirmation that the power is much more in the water than the spark.

Thank you for posting this video.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 11, 2008, 05:30:09 AM
Hi Everyone,

This is both ON TOPIC and sort of OFF TOPIC

ON TOPIC:  We need to continue our present direction in designing, improving and applying the plasma spark to water to release the energy in it necessary to drive a piston down in an internal combustion engine, AS WELL AS THE MULTITUDE OF OTHER APPLICATIONS to which this technology can be applied.  We are definitely on to something here with LUC, capacitor70, Ossie, XBox, myself and others actually doing experiments and coming up with real results.

Since Luc started this thread, many positive results and forward direction has occurred.  I will be doing more of my own tests this weekend on testing a variation of the plasma circuits in here already and will post all results.  We are definitely on the right course of action because all of a sudden, S1R is coming out of the woodwork again, I believe to still attempt to lay claim to this idea, even though it was actually done in the 1950's by Adam Crawford in Scotland!

I truly believe S1R found something about Adam Crawford and then created a forum 3 years ago so the likes of us can actually figure it out for him.

Slightly OFF TOPIC:
I am not calling anyone a LIAR, but a few things don't add up.  S1R's write up description and posts on the Yahoo Waterfuel forum said the main coil was uninsulated BARE COPPER WIRE, and two coils using stranded insulated wire. 

I am degreed in Physics, but not an electronics guru by any stretch of the imagination, but even my 6th grade science teacher showed this in his electricity experiment, that electricity follows the path of least resistance.  Whether it is a straight piece of wire or coiled up a billion times, isn't BARE WIRE essentially a DEAD SHORT between windings, and therefore no different than a straight piece of wire (not counting the resistance per foot of copper)?  That was a rhetorical statement... LOL

Then today, S1R posted on the Yahoo Waterfuel forum, "the main coil has black tape on it, as well as "the other black coil."  The original statement, however said the other 2 coils were insulated stranded wire.  Looking at SIR's own picture very closely, shows the black coils are NOT black tape covering BARE WIRES ( I still can't get over the bare wire thing... LOL), but looks like standard factory insulated wire. 

OK, pick a story and go with it, S1R!

Then a nail just thrown in the air space of the coil as opposed to the wire being wound tightly around the nail, also would be a dead short across the bare wire windings as it simply laid on top of the bare wire windings.  Certainly one of those conditions would cause a dead short!

Years ago, I had a bad ignition coil on my car.  The primary showed 1 Ohm resistance which was OK and within the manufacturer's specifications.  The secondary coil however measured only 4K Ohms, but should have been on the order of 10K to 12K ohms, far below manufacturer's specifications.  That meant a some of the secondary windings burned (melted) and created a short between the windings resulting in greatly reduced resistance.

Then we have the best statement of all:  The coils slowed down the electricity enough so that the timing on the Briggs and Straton engine (funny how Briggs and Straton abbreviated is BS) did not have to be changed.

Again, I am not an electronics guru, but doesn't electricity travel at the same speed, regardless as to what it is traveling through?  I do know there are timer/delay circuits one can design and create, but isn't that simply using components that allow for charge/discharge times and other components that vary the time of delivery of the electricity, but doesn't change the actual speed of electricity itself? Sorry, rhetorical again!  LOL

Regardless, these three coils certainly cannot "slow down" the speed of electricity to that extent!

OK, so in summation, we have Bare Copper Wire as a main coil, but then recanted to being covered in black tape, the other black coil also having black tape around it.  But S1R's original description said the 2nd and 3rd coils were insulated stranded wire, but then "the inventor's" own picture clearly showing otherwise (unless he's the best in the world at wrapping black tape around a wire to look exactly like factory made insulation), we have an inverter, but not really, we have 3 coils wound so that they "slow down" electricity enough to the extent where adjusting the timing on a BS engine (I love that) wasn't necessary, etc., etc., etc...

Again, I am not calling anyone a LIAR, but... draw your own conclusions and decide for yourself, but I am literally ROFLMFAO!

Back ON Topic:  For this reason, we need to continue on our current path and KEEP FOCUSED.  I believe we are close to the next steps.  As Luc has stated all along, we need to keep this all Public Domain for the betterment of us all.  The group of people I am working with have already agreed to make everything we do, success, failures and achievements totally PUBLIC for everyone here, on other forums and to have it available to everyone!  This is too important to keep any of it secret!

Regards,
Geo


Hi Geo,

I like your style and logic...No more needs to be said!  You would make a darn good lawyer!  Hummmm don't know if that is a compliment or not!  You might not be a Guru in electronics but your Physics degree and attention to detail has you one up in my book!  Too tired, too late to work on my motor so reading back post!

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 11, 2008, 05:49:40 AM
Great work Paul, I'm glad to see you doing this. Bedini oscillators are the way to go...much faster charging. The way you are charging the cap can give you different results when discharging. Conventional thinking is that you need electrons piling on plates to charge a cap...that incorrect viewpoint is detrimental to sanity and has no place in science and electrical engineering...and I mention this in response to someone else.
------------------------------
Check this out please, everyone:
"Read pages 26-29 of this document:
Eric Dollard Notes on Dielectricity and Capacitance.
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991

"The misconception that capacitance is the accumulation of electrons has seriously distorted our view of dielectric phenomena.""
------------------------------

I agree with Luc that more effort needs to be put on the water and not just getting the spark...but what everyone is missing and this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whatever in the world S1R is up to, but the fuel you're putting into the coil is the capacitor's discharge-----WHAT CHARGED THE CAP---...that is also where at least some exploration needs to take place.

1. Electrons from closed loop hot electron current is NOT what charges a cap and isn't even required.
2. Voltage Potential alone can charge a cap without current.
3. A closed loop hot current connection will charge a cap but that doesn't mean it is from electron piling.
4. The discharge of capacitors depending on how they are charged make a difference in the effects depending on application...just like how a battery is charged cold or hot...makes a difference in what it runs...bulbs are brighter white than if charged with hot current, etc...
5. Charge a cap with a single wire connected to its terminals...discharge it..effects are different than if you charged it with "current."

Anyway, just something to consider.

Thank you qiman for bringing this information here and raising these points to help us think of things we could be missing when using or programing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 11, 2008, 12:27:22 PM
Quote
In conventional current yes, Tesla said his radiant energy was based on "surface area", the voltage rise based on sq/in's of conductor

Where did he say this?
I read a lot of Tesla, but can't remember this statement...
Thank you...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 11, 2008, 04:41:06 PM
Hi Gang,

I hope everyone is a member of the  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/  Group.  It has a pile of excellent data from S1R from day one brought over from another list.......  I know they are upset with our discussion here on a slightly technical transformer question, but if you can not question the basics, where does the creatatiivity come in!

Forget the coil in a nail, go back to what he orginally did, read his description, look at the RELAYS and diodes (Looke at the size of those diodes!!!!!).  As Ossie noticed, LISTEN for the HUM on the orginal videos!  Inverters do NOT hum!

It is pretty simple and darnn clear what he was doing.  I believe by sheer accident, he stumbled on chopping the 110V from the inverter, adding the back emf spikes to it and summing them at the plug..............Sure you could add the funky coil in series with the "and" function but it wouldn't have/make any difference in the final outcome.....I feel the coil is a "red-hering" to steer us all away from the INDUCTIVE chop/spike process.....

I do see how he says it is not the way Ossie and I do it as our Capacative discharge does not have the HIGH multi strike plasma burst...............I suspect his real problem is longivity in those relays!  Unless most of the current is passing through the diodes and the relays are huminng along on the side producing those huge back EMF spikes!

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: robbie47 on July 11, 2008, 05:30:42 PM
Just a simple question:

Why does't rain in a thunderstorm cause a giant explosion?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 11, 2008, 09:21:10 PM
Just a simple question:

Why does't rain in a thunderstorm cause a giant explosion?

Hi Robbie,

Here in FL we call it THUNDER!

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 11, 2008, 09:54:57 PM
Just a simple question:

Why does't rain in a thunderstorm cause a giant explosion?
@robbie47
You are seeing a giant explosion! The strike from the upper atmosphere to the earth is similar to the anode to cathode of a spark plug in the experiments of this thread. The problem is that no one will realize that the action will not invoke a chain reaction. In other words it is totally localized around the event. The energy in a lighting strike is far in excess of the wildest dreams of any experimenter and yet it will not cause a spontaneous combustion or disassociation of water molecules past the periphery of the primary strike.

If mother nature can not do it with the power she has then you have little hope of mortal man doing it. If it were possible for a chain reaction (excitation) of non-localized water molecules, then I feel the earth would not be here today.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 11, 2008, 10:10:32 PM
Just a simple question:

Why does't rain in a thunderstorm cause a giant explosion?

Someone left the inverter unplugged......
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 11, 2008, 10:16:57 PM
Someone left the inverter unplugged......
@xbox hacker
This is indeed the pursuit of science? What?

What is this dysfunctional artifact of human need for atonement that is preventing honest, interested and in dire need of replacement of the current energy establishment?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on July 11, 2008, 10:30:32 PM

Again, I am not an electronics guru, but doesn't electricity travel at the same speed, regardless as to what it is traveling through?  I do know there are timer/delay circuits one can design and create, but isn't that simply using components that allow for charge/discharge times and other components that vary the time of delivery of the electricity, but doesn't change the actual speed of electricity itself? Sorry, rhetorical again!  LOL

Regardless, these three coils certainly cannot "slow down" the speed of electricity to that extent!

But these three coils can vary the energy distribution in time of the input impulse -
to a more pleasant shape.
Nowadays we call that "filter" - high pass ,low pass, band pass, all pass, notch, analogue, digital,#
fir, iir,2nd order, whatever order.
So if you have a loudness high or bass or mid or equalizer setup on your audio system - you know that not every setting is your favourite.
Normal filters change the rms values of the audio spectrum - additional - or as feature they change the shape of a pulse applied.
Why ?
A razor pulse contains (if not repeated) all frequencies - everything which deviates from this razor shape line means - some frequencies are there - someone not - fourier sysnthesis/analysis.
Every ugly looking metal/coil/cap/wire thing has a complex impedance - which means that if its connected to an output which resistance is not 0 - acts as filter.
The induction in the coil alike things "delay" the dynamic current (whilst buffering energy) - the cap-alike things "delay" the dynamic voltage(whilst buffering energy). The pulse is not faster - but has a different shape. Parts of the power spike charged up mutual caps and inductors in the setup - and this energy is immediatly released - this takes a bit - the pulse gets wider.......

space is deep.

so lets call it pulse-forming network or pulse-shaper.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 11, 2008, 10:46:20 PM
@xbox hacker
This is indeed the pursuit of science? What?

Ummm...its a joke...like HAHA, you know?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 11, 2008, 11:08:33 PM
(2) New Spark Vids for  johncarl43447

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_kxaLBo_Xo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe2-czkeq2o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 11, 2008, 11:14:44 PM
Ummm...its a joke...like HAHA, you know?
@xbox
You called it and I will stand off so when this BS is over I can come back and point out the BS.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 11, 2008, 11:20:46 PM

 The strike from the upper atmosphere to the earth is similar to the anode to cathode of a spark plug in the experiments of this thread. The problem is that no one will realize that the action will not invoke a chain reaction. In other words it is totally localized around the event. The energy in a lighting strike is far in excess of the wildest dreams of any experimenter and yet it will not cause a spontaneous combustion or disassociation of water molecules past the periphery of the primary strike.

If mother nature can not do it with the power she has then you have little hope of mortal man doing it. If it were possible for a chain reaction (excitation) of non-localized water molecules, then I feel the earth would not be here today.

If you mean there is no "flame front" or "flame propagation" as with gasoline then I agree, whatever is directly hit by the plasma arc is the only thing affected. I also agree that alot of people don't realize that. I don't think a conventional spark plug is gonna cut it either. It's gonna have to be a spark plug/injector combo for direct injection, sort of like a diesel.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 11, 2008, 11:29:53 PM
If you mean there is no "flame front" or "flame propagation" as with gasoline then I agree, whatever is directly hit by the plasma arc is the only thing affected. I also agree that alot of people don't realize that. I don't think a conventional spark plug is gonna cut it either. It's gonna have to be a spark plug/injector combo for direct injection, sort of like a diesel.
@bumfuzzled
Yes indeed. you appear to understand and seem to have a handle on fact. Big discharge area with a very significant amount of input energy to support it.

The reaction id far from what a carbon based fuel flame front is. It is a localized condition and even though it results in a very specific and energetic response, it only responds to the area of excitation. This is a very important bit of science knowledge, but its not the manna from heaven for ICE engines.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 11, 2008, 11:38:56 PM

Big discharge area with a very significant amount of input energy to support it.



This is what I've said a few times and what I'm working on at the moment. I don't claim to understand what is taking place with this reaction but I think I know enough to work on it, mo' power, bigger spark area. Regulating it to be able to drive down the road like a normal car is gonna be another challenge I think. If nothing else you could power a steady state generator and run yer house off of it and charge the batteries on an electric car, use the power to run a "still" for ethanol production to power "normal" ICE engines or many other things.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 12, 2008, 01:50:30 AM
Some findings....

So went to harbor freight and bought a "IGNITION TRAK ENGINE IGNITION TESTER". Its for testing normal spark under pressure, it has a gauge, but not with psi graduations.

(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/93700-93799/93795.gif)

Got my setup hooked up to it, put a little pressure on it and..... the needle MOVED when the plasma occured!!!! Displacing the pressure in the tube! To give you a visual aid, the needle was in the middle of the red area, when the plasma occurred it shot the needle to almost the end of the red. It did go back down very shortly after, but it went right back to the start spot. The funny thing is that i was testing the device with a "normal" spark...any pressure in the yellow or higher i can not get any spark at all. It only works in the red for my magneto on the B&S. I think i need a good Accel coil...crank up the power!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 12, 2008, 01:59:50 AM
So went to harbor freight and bought a "IGNITION TRAK ENGINE IGNITION TESTER". Its for testing normal spark under pressure, it has a gauge, but not with psi graduations.
(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/93700-93799/93795.gif)
Got my setup hooked up to it, put a little pressure on it and..... the needle MOVED when the plasma occured!!!! Displacing the pressure in the tube! To give you a visual aid, the needle was in the middle of the red area, when the plasma occurred it shot the needle to almost the end of the red. It did go back down very shortly after, but it went right back to the start spot. The funny thing is that i was testing the device with a "normal" spark...any pressure in the yellow or higher i can not get any spark at all. It only works in the red for my magneto on the B&S. I think i need a good Accel coil...crank up the power!

Interesting, but FYI, I have the Accel Super Stack coil, can't say it is produced any better results than the others.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 12, 2008, 02:05:54 AM
Interesting, but FYI, I have the Accel Super Stack coil, can't say it is produced any better results than the others.

Regards, Larry

I thought Accel coil would have more HV then a mower magneto...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Qwert on July 12, 2008, 02:09:13 AM
Hi to All.
Once, quite a long time ago (at least a decade ago) I've read an article about reaction of Hydrogen on metals. That article said that some metals BECOME BRITTLE in presence of Hydrogen. 
Thus, if You, Guys want to use Hydrogen as a fuel in regular engines, You should consider this information. Or, using internet and/or other sources, at least check to what degree this information remain true.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 12, 2008, 02:44:25 AM
I thought Accel coil would have more HV then a mower magneto...

True, but I though you had used a regular ignition coil to produce you previous plasma shots that you've shown. Are you talking about a special Accel coil for mower's?

Maybe that's why your ignition tester is producing weird results due to using a magneto instead of ignition coil.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 12, 2008, 02:57:44 AM
True, but I though you had used a regular ignition coil to produce you previous plasma shots that you've shown. Are you talking about a special Accel coil for mower's?
Maybe that's why your ignition tester is producing weird results due to using a magneto instead of ignition coil.

The plasma shot that i used for my forum avatar, is from my design and a magneto form a B&S engine. I made a pickup like Cap70 did and will put it on the engine to trigger a standard ignition coil...then i might not have to spend $40 for a Accel coil.

I agree about the tester might not be suitable for magnetos. But it was only $4  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 12, 2008, 03:00:48 AM
Wow its odd how things go full circle: If the plasma won't "ignite" water it doesn't directly touch... Then are we back to the Meyer patents?... A water mist injecting, plasma -arc generating "plug" that ignites electrolyzer-created HHO to get it done with sufficient power and authority? The "exploding" water (or whatever its doing, lol) acts as the energy catalyst that the HHO would seem to need to be the most efficient? ...And thus manageable amounts of HHO are used and not the huge amounts that many predict are required to power a vehicle (...and that Meyer's cell obviously could not deliver alone).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 12, 2008, 03:17:28 AM
The plasma shot that i used for my forum avatar, is from my design and a magneto form a B&S engine. I made a pickup like Cap70 did and will put it on the engine to trigger a standard ignition coil...then i might not have to spend $40 for a Accel coil.
I

Accel was under $30 from pep boys.

Good Luck, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 12, 2008, 04:13:13 AM
Wow its odd how things go full circle: If the plasma won't "ignite" water it doesn't directly touch... Then are we back to the Meyer patents?... A water mist injecting, plasma -arc generating "plug" that ignites electrolyzer-created HHO to get it done with sufficient power and authority? The "exploding" water (or whatever its doing, lol) acts as the energy catalyst that the HHO would seem to need to be the most efficient? ...And thus manageable amounts of HHO are used and not the huge amounts that many predict are required to power a vehicle (...and that Meyer's cell obviously could not deliver alone).

I guess you are responding to Dr Stifflers comments:

Quote
Yes indeed. you appear to understand and seem to have a handle on fact. Big discharge area with a very significant amount of input energy to support it.

The reaction id far from what a carbon based fuel flame front is. It is a localized condition and even though it results in a very specific and energetic response, it only responds to the area of excitation. This is a very important bit of science knowledge, but its not the manna from heaven for ICE engines.

I realised a while ago that this effect was going to raise huge problems for ICE.  The idea of converting our existing ICE fleet to water is exciting, but probably misguided.  In that respect, HHO probably is better. Big Oil will allow the use of Hydrogen vehicles, because they can sell hydrogen and control the technology and prices.  The Government will be right behind this - because any energy that can be Sold can be Taxed.  Don't underestimate the force that Big Oil and Big Government will exert to maintain their strangle hold.

The technical issues of rusting/corroding, hydraulicing and freezing will be enough to kill successful ICE conversions.  That's even before considering sparkplug design and timing systems and optimising combustion chambers.  (FWIW - you can lower the compression ratio by adding multiple head gaskets - and you can get camshafts ground to optimise performance - but I think the previous problems are enough of a buzz killer).   

So it that respect - I think conventional, underunity, hot HHO technology might emerge the winner, even though it's not the best.  The backyard tinkerers can probably make their own hydrogen - until the laws get changed and bootlegging  hydrogen becomes a Terrorist activity. 

For this reason you might want to consider converting ICE to compressed air instead. Could be a lot easier to do - especially if you don't bother with regenerating brake losses.  Gate the flow to each cylinder with a solenoid valve, and control speed with timed impulses of air pressure during the power stroke when both valves are shut.

The power of low-temp plasma water explosions could be used in a simple home-based air compressor.  (lightening & thunder in a box).

This would open the door to researching the best spark plug for creating explosions in a water tank.  I am suspecting a parabolic dish spark plug will be found to be best for this. 

Sorry to take this off topic - but I think it's an important reality check for ICE experimenters to know what they are up against.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 12, 2008, 04:25:31 AM
IF you beleive the whole "Big Oil" "Government Conspiracy" theories, wouldn't that serve as more of an incentive to make this work? People could give up now and say "what's the point?" or they could continue down the current path. If you beleived in that theory, I would have thought giving up would be the last thing you would want to do? I know you're not talking about giving up entirely and I know very little about the idea of powering an ICE on compressed air, but using water to power a compressor to produce air to use in a car sounds rather inefficient compared to harnessing the power at the source.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 12, 2008, 06:29:36 AM
IF you beleive the whole "Big Oil" "Government Conspiracy" theories, wouldn't that serve as more of an incentive to make this work? People could give up now and say "what's the point?" or they could continue down the current path. If you beleived in that theory, I would have thought giving up would be the last thing you would want to do? I know you're not talking about giving up entirely and I know very little about the idea of powering an ICE on compressed air, but using water to power a compressor to produce air to use in a car sounds rather inefficient compared to harnessing the power at the source.

I think you misunderstand me.  I am not giving up, or suggesting anyone else give up.  I am giving what I believe to be good advice (or at least something to consider for yourself).  Are you American?  It's pretty obvious to the rest of the world that the oil companies are holding the world to ransom.  Big oil money has bought and sold the governments of this world - anyone with half a brain can see this.  No conspiracy theories needed.  It's blatant and obvious.  The Bush family & Saudi Arabian friends wanted to preserve their oil empire - and look what they did to protect it.  This has nothing to do with what the American people wanted - and they are paying the price for it.  It's debatable whether the American people even fairly voted this tyrant in - because big oil money can buy anything, even votes.  Not that it really matters ... Meet the new boss - Same as the old boss ...

My suggestions are intended to save low budget inventors from wasting time and resources on the wrong things. 

I believe that there are those amongst us who want us to fail - and one way they can do that is to enthusiatically approve of ideas that they know will lead up a blind alley ...

I don't think water arc technology is a blind alley - I think big oil should be afraid.  So afraid, that they probably have infiltrated all forums such as these and are hell bent on diverting them down blind alleys.




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 12, 2008, 06:42:33 AM
Quote
using water to power a compressor to produce air to use in a car sounds rather inefficient compared to harnessing the power at the source.

In theory I agree.  However, if your source of energy is free - then efficiency isn't a major factor.

I am just pointing out that Internal Combustion engines have been optimised to run on a completely different principle to water arc explosions. 

You ARE going to have problems with rusting & corrosion
You ARE going to have problems with hydraulicing (cylinders jamming when filled with water)
You ARE going to have problems with freezing in winter (unless you start burning hydrogen - back to electrolysers and different technologies that might yet work)
You ARE going to have problems with Big Oil IF you get in their way
You ARE going to have problems with Big Government IF they start to lose tax revenue

IF any corporation was ALLOWED to develope a water arc engine, it would require massive R & D to compete with the major ICE makers.  Most technologies could be shut down with some simple public safety regulation.

So what is the best way to liberate massive amounts of free energy, and stay under the radar?  That is why I am suggesting keeping the energy production seperate/hidden from the energy consumption.

The best way is to widely proliferate a cheap workable technology that puts the working principle into the public domain.  Note that most genuine free energy ideas have already been patented - or close enough to drown you with legal disputes forever.

Some of the free energy "heroes" may have been bought & controlled too. 

So don't imagine that you are going to get massively rich with some backyard technology.  The cards are stacked against you.  But one person CAN still change the world. 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on July 12, 2008, 06:50:55 AM
@greendoor - I seem to recall you were alluding to the same MIB/Bigoil/conspiracy stuff in the Davey heater thread, so now I'm beginning to wonder what your motives really are!  If you truly are that worried about MIB's, lock yourself in a cupboard somewhere and swallow the key, you are then 100% safe - guaranteed!!! :D

For the rest of us, the only way we will ever see change is if stuff like this is replicated on a massive scale, then there is absolutely nothing that the big, scary MIB's can do!  But don't worry, they'll invent some other way to tax us instead, so there's no fear of them becoming destitute...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 12, 2008, 07:00:49 AM
I'm not scared.  I'm just a practical realist.  Like some people here, I'm looking for the best strategy to build a cheap simple free energy device that CAN be replicated on a massive scale and change the world forever.  It's going to happen. 

But if you don't have a strategy, and don't know who your real enemies are - you can get into trouble very easily.  The Peter Davies story is an excellent example of what i'm talking about.  One of hundreds of inventors who has not succeeded because of government obstruction.  And to see this going on in my city, this year, does make me a little sensitive. 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 12, 2008, 07:54:28 AM
Again, this applies to both subscribers and non-subscribers. Look at what Napster started and p2p software is continuing to do to the recording industry. Big oil and the govt can regulate, they can prohibit, they can do whatever they like... but once it gets out into the public that there's a 'free' way to do what people have been paying for, don't underestimate what the public can do to respond. It's non-combustive, non-polluting, and free. Safety and environmental impact are the two most likely excuses the govt would haul out to prevent this from taking off, but it defies neither premise. I really think consumers are smarter than we're giving credit for. They'll see regulation for what it is - a desperate excuse from big oil to keep trying to get consumers to line their pockets.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 12, 2008, 08:41:04 AM
Sprocet

Give Green door a break.

He has a point,

Big oil is not the problem our government is, here in the states we are taxed at the fuel pump to support our infricture /roads and bridges. Big oil can survive off of plastic sales.

If we changed to a water fuel economy that ''they'' would have little control of, as we say in the south they would have a hissy fit.

Citys /Counties/States/Feds Would need to find other sources of revenue to pay for maintaining our infricture.

Changing to water fuel would create a whole new world that our legislators would need to deal with.

The current approval rating in the U.S. congress is less than ''10'' percent GWB is doing better than that.

What chance do we have for them DOING it right.

If this plays out owners purchasing components and paying for installations should work out unless someone comes up with ''New Rules''.

Be
Well
Tinker

 




   



   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 12, 2008, 08:55:48 AM
Since this has turned into somewhat of a political debate I'll add my two cents. If Al Gore were president he'd probably be all for this water fuel since it's non polluting, since he's all for green energy and therefore he wouldn't try to regulate, ban, bury, tax to death or do anything else you can think of to this technology. (yeah right) He wouldn't be "big buddies" with the oil giants either and gas prices would be dirt cheap seeing how the president has everything to do with setting the gas prices.  ::) Oh wait I forgot, he's the reason we can't drill our own oil, him and his tree huggin' buddies, dang I can't believe that slipped my mind. Hey, let's get congress to put a price cap on oil that way it will be cheap. Oh wait, I forgot that they already tried that once too and we were standing in line to get gas. How in the world can we ask the oil companies to lower prices or produce more oil when we won't even drill for our own damned oil???!!! And let's not even consider nuclear power, oooohhhh noooooo.  :o We are at the mercy of the oil companies and the speculators and the futures market and the likes of China and other developing countries right now. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it except work on this technology that lies before us in this thread and hopefully we can eventually cut some ties with the oil companies. The only bad thing about it is the govt. will get their money one way or another, if it ain't from gas taxes it will be taxes from somewhere else. It wouldn't surprise me if they start taxing the air we breathe one day!!!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on July 12, 2008, 09:32:01 AM
The strike from the upper atmosphere to the earth is similar to the anode to cathode of a spark plug in the experiments of this thread. The problem is that no one will realize that the action will not invoke a chain reaction. In other words it is totally localized around the event. The energy in a lighting strike is far in excess of the wildest dreams of any experimenter and yet it will not cause a spontaneous combustion or disassociation of water molecules past the periphery of the primary strike.

If mother nature can not do it with the power she has then you have little hope of mortal man doing it. If it were possible for a chain reaction (excitation) of non-localized water molecules, then I feel the earth would not be here today.

But I think that the properties of a lightning strike (width of plasma channel) differs in diameter depending on air pressure and other factors - means in an ICE the plasma ignites, there is a flamefront which leads to a circulation that forces non active water dust under high pressure to the (pulse shaped) plasma arc which causes more water to ignite than in the area of the arc.
In my understanding - there is a big difference between having the arc/plasma in "free space" and having the flame front in an enclosed space like a cylinder.
Probably a microwave ignition would give more chance to optimize the plasma.

rgds.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 12, 2008, 09:36:09 AM
Who NOW is against drilling,  GWB is not on this list.

Just like the liberals have ignored the success of the surge in Iraq.

I spent a a good bit of time in the oil fields and know how they operate.

They could produce product within a year if allowed to they have already done the exploration and found the sources but have been blocked by the green agenda to exploit them.


But that is because it does not fit into the Liberal agenda.

TINKER







 

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 12, 2008, 10:03:27 AM
When did this thread turn into yet another political thread ?  I clearly remember that Gotoluc was given moderator privileges so this thread could stay focused on creating a circuit (or circuits) for plasma arc which might be applied to a ICE. This focus is clearly not happening. Please everyone. Lets stay on topic.. Start replicating and experimenting.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 12, 2008, 10:19:28 AM
Hydeocc

There are implications to what we are doing here that should be addressed.

Opening another thread might be an option. I will leave that to others to decide.

Be Well
Tinker

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 12, 2008, 10:53:51 AM
When you have a good spark with the water on the table top, can you feel a pressure pulse from the spark plug if you were to put your hand within say 1ft/30cm of the plug?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 12, 2008, 11:19:48 AM
@Geo and anyone with a big V-8 engine to convert

Some years ago when gas prices rose, many mechanics converted their big V-8 engine into V-4's.  This effectively made the engine into half sized V-4.
This was done by removing the intake valve and pinning the lifters up off the camshaft of the cylinders not to be used.  They ran smooth because the fuel mixture was bounced around through the intake manifold and in and out the the cylinders not firing, and finally into a working cylinder to be fired. 

I am thinking this same principal could be applied to the water car project.  Water introduced at the carb would be better mixed with the air in the manifold and unused cylinders, so that by the time it gets to the plasma plug it will be thoroughly mixed into a heavy vapor?

If everything fails, you at least end up with a more economical car to drive.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 12, 2008, 11:56:49 AM
From a laymans (uneducated) point of view, if using a 4 stroke ICE as a water engine, wouldn't it make more sense to replace the camshaft(s) for one that allowed it to run in a 2 stroke mode?  My feeling is that compression will not help the plasma initiate, and with what looks like a violent explosion anyway it could do with all the spare room possible to soften the blow on the pistons, and also I think the exhaust will need to open pretty quickly before the fog wants to reduce back to liquid, at least if the engine is in a cold state, to avoid it sucking the piston back up before it's got to the end of its stroke (unless someone is smart enough in their calcs to utilize this the their advantage, and get a push-pull out of each stroke).

It would also neatly get around the issue of having an unwanted spark on the 'dead' half of a 4 stroke cycle.  You may find, that in contrast to S1R's experience of a slight loss of power, you actually have a heck of a lot more.  It could sound pretty cool as well.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 12, 2008, 12:29:10 PM
Yes, lets keep this thread on topic.

I am using Luc's diagram, it is easy to understand. I would appreciate it if others would take notice of how much clearer Luc's diagram is vs Capacitor70's diagram (this is the only diagram from cap70 that I know of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3977.0;attach=24661;image). What is Mian? What is +ve? What does the device really look like? What gauge magnet wire? How the hell am I suppose to wrap one coil around a nail and another around that coil? How is this ever suppose to work? What does the rest of the circuit look like? What ignition coil is he using? We need details. The info that is given does not impress me as credibile, please provide info so I can duplicate the work you have done.

I am getting plasma sparks but there is no indication of water having positive influence. There is no burst, there is only a strong spark, like a small lightning bolt.

The only thing that I am doing differently is that I am using wall current instead of an inverter, I have one 95w light bulb on one AC lead, and I have a fuse (2.5a currently) on the positive lead from the rectifier. With the new clean spark plug that I am using, the bulb was needed to keep my fuse from blowing.

Input needed. How can I improve this setup to start getting results like Capacitor70 is getting?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gettinwet on July 12, 2008, 02:37:44 PM
Yes, lets keep this thread on topic.

I am using Luc's diagram, it is easy to understand. I would appreciate it if others would take notice of how much clearer Luc's diagram is vs Capacitor70's diagram (this is the only diagram from cap70 that I know of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3977.0;attach=24661;image).

Input needed. How can I improve this setup to start getting results like Capacitor70 is getting?

Go back and read all of the other thread. The diagram you mention is his interpretation of the bogus schemtic S1R9A9M9 released this week..
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 12, 2008, 05:43:03 PM
Yes, lets keep this thread on topic.

I am using Luc's diagram, it is easy to understand. I would appreciate it if others would take notice of how much clearer Luc's diagram is vs Capacitor70's diagram (this is the only diagram from cap70 that I know of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3977.0;attach=24661;image). What is Mian? What is +ve? What does the device really look like? What gauge magnet wire? How the hell am I suppose to wrap one coil around a nail and another around that coil? How is this ever suppose to work? What does the rest of the circuit look like? What ignition coil is he using? We need details. The info that is given does not impress me as credibile, please provide info so I can duplicate the work you have done.

I am getting plasma sparks but there is no indication of water having positive influence. There is no burst, there is only a strong spark, like a small lightning bolt.

The only thing that I am doing differently is that I am using wall current instead of an inverter, I have one 95w light bulb on one AC lead, and I have a fuse (2.5a currently) on the positive lead from the rectifier. With the new clean spark plug that I am using, the bulb was needed to keep my fuse from blowing.

Input needed. How can I improve this setup to start getting results like Capacitor70 is getting?

That image you are referring to is a rendition of S1r's "mystery coil"...it was drawn by me and he added a few things to it. That is not what he used on his bike! So just dissreguard the image for now!
Here is Cap70's setup that he used in the video..
(http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_15783465/5388/__sr_/4a5a.jpg?grgoQeIB9Y4Ica66)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Zayith on July 12, 2008, 06:02:20 PM
Hi all,
Instead of trying to convert or build a rotation motor, operated by the Water Power Effect (WPE), maybe consider to produce electric power directly by WPE in closed cell, without moving parts, by using photoelectric effect and/or piezoelectric effect. This can let you skip over problems like timing etc.
Regards,
Zayith
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 12, 2008, 06:10:08 PM


You ARE going to have problems with rusting & corrosion
You ARE going to have problems with hydraulicing (cylinders jamming when filled with water)
You ARE going to have problems with freezing in winter (unless you start burning hydrogen - back to electrolysers and different technologies that might yet work)
You ARE going to have problems with Big Oil IF you get in their way
You ARE going to have problems with Big Government IF they start to lose tax revenue


You can coat piston tops, combustion chambers, cylinder walls, valves and the entire intake track if need be. You can use stainless steel valves and rings and stainless exhaust. As far as blowby into the crankcase you can use gapless rings which greatly reduces blowby and increases horsepower. Worst thing is you might have to change yer oil a lil more often. Hydraulicing I don't see as a problem once we get the fuel delivery system right.

For freezing water, you can put a heater on the fuel tank, on the carb, or make some sorta of circulating system that runs the entire fuel system thru a heater to keep it from freezing while it's sitting in the driveway or just park the thing in a garage. These are minor problems compared to actually getting it to run and run right on water which can be dealt with later.

You actually do have a point with govt tho, they will get their money one way or the other.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: casman1969 on July 12, 2008, 08:16:42 PM
Love the thread and hate to do this to you.., (political)
But try this site out...
http://www.MarchForYourCountry.com
We need to put pressure on our government until we can get one these OU devices to market.
In the mean time they are destroying the middle class of ALL countries.

casman
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 12, 2008, 11:14:22 PM
@all: I really go with hydro. Stop debating in this thread about things which don't belong here (politics, is OU possible, use hydrogen, blabla) and stay focused. These threads here are about water arc systems and how to put them in a working system!

Don't understand me wrong. I think it's good to debate about it, but please not here, as otherwise the thread gets really disgusting to follow, if one is just interested in the water arc related topics...

About the lightning , rain, and it's power (which is actually the big version of what we build in small):
Well up until today, science does not fully understand what exactly happens on a lighting strike. For there's one problem: You can easily calculate the power available from the clouds, and you will be astonished, this is not that much. And what puzzles scientists until now is the fact, that the lighting develops more power than actually should be availabe according to the calculations...(some try to explain it for example by an electron avalanche that is happening)
And everbody that says a lighting does only develop power directly in the discharge, I recommend standing about 20m from a lighting bolt. It will throw you away from the blast wave (a friend of mine, happened this, a lighting stroke about 15m from the house...All windows gone and as he said a tremendous strong shockwave...)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Fast on July 13, 2008, 12:08:15 AM
@all: I really go with hydro. Stop debating in this thread about things which don't belong here (politics, is OU possible, use hydrogen, blabla) and stay focused. These threads here are about water arc systems and how to put them in a working system!

Don't understand me wrong. I think it's good to debate about it, but please not here, as otherwise the thread gets really disgusting to follow, if one is just interested in the water arc related topics...

About the lightning , rain, and it's power (which is actually the big version of what we build in small):
Well up until today, science does not fully understand what exactly happens on a lighting strike. For there's one problem: You can easily calculate the power available from the clouds, and you will be astonished, this is not that much. And what puzzles scientists until now is the fact, that the lighting develops more power than actually should be availabe according to the calculations...(some try to explain it for example by an electron avalanche that is happening)
And everbody that says a lighting does only develop power directly in the discharge, I recommend standing about 20m from a lighting bolt. It will throw you away from the blast wave (a friend of mine, happened this, a lighting stroke about 15m from the house...All windows gone and as he said a tremendous strong shockwave...)

Yes I totally agree, lets stay on topic please..
And those of you that haven't seen this video yet about the energy released should do it now.
It will only take 1min of you're time
Wasser / Water Explosion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O27hq1NC_U

And I have no doubt it will force an piston down if concealed in a cylinder.

/Fast
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chester`C on July 13, 2008, 12:47:44 AM
Not to detour off topic again but this is my 1st post all this science stuff is great, me and a colleague are currently developing an electrolisis system but after reading about the water arc, which in your experienced positions do you think is going to be the best way forward. After all I don't want to invest tooo much time into something that isn't going to produce the desired result (freedom from the grid) We're are based in the UK so therefore don't buy into your MIB bull and if they want to come knocking at the door then lets hope they got a big set of balls. As you may or may not know here in UK we do things slightly different to you guys across the pond and most hard working citizens have complete disregard for any gouvornment officials, religion or authority although our state are trying to reverse this by copying some of its younger brothers anticks. Eg the big brother scenario etc. and people just aren't as niave as they used to be. So any info on the best way to accomplish overunity please let us know because if it does work we'll make sure it gets out there before the legislation kicks in

Thanks Mr Copperpot  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 13, 2008, 02:17:42 AM

And everbody that says a lighting does only develop power directly in the discharge, I recommend standing about 20m from a lighting bolt. It will throw you away from the blast wave (a friend of mine, happened this, a lighting stroke about 15m from the house...All windows gone and as he said a tremendous strong shockwave...)

What is believed to happen is whatever water molecules that are in the plasma arc's direct path are exploded. Of course you will feel a shockwave but that doesn't mean it's a chain reaction affect, if so then we might not be here due to lightning blowing up everything.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 13, 2008, 02:18:32 AM
Not to detour off topic again but ...<snip>

Thanks Mr Copperpot  ;D

Electrolysis is known to be pretty inefficient, and the question is whether this inefficiency can be absorbed and still get an overall benefit with gasoline efficiency improvements by using it.  Fogging water is (potentially) much lower energy input for the return, but what's yet to be shown en masse, is whether it's a useful thing to do to extract a large amount of chemical work by using an electrical input trigger.  Everyone on this thread is hoping that's the case.

As for the rest of your post, as an Ex-pat from UK who decided to get the hell out of dodge, I find it truly scary that such a delusion can be maintained by so many people in this day and age and I'd love to discuss it further, but not on this thread.  I'd suggest starting here: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=10FI0g0PMhY then finding a forum that discusses such things.

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on July 13, 2008, 06:54:08 AM
Hi ,

I was checking out S1R's youtube profile, his only subscription is to Capacitor70. This leads me to believe that he is watching for a reason, this must mean that Cap70 is on the right track!!
Just an observation...

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 13, 2008, 08:09:59 AM
Hi All,

Here is our circuit:

We ran our first test for the plasma arc today!  I know the description following may be extremely basic and BORING for many in here, but as promised, I said I would divulge everything we did Step-By-Step, and explain it in the simplest of laymans terms, so that anyone that knows which end of a screw driver to use, can also do this!

Step 1:  Verify non-resistor spark plug. 
Attaching a multimeter set on ohms we touched the top of the plug to the little anode (not the "L") and got zero ohms.

Step 2:  Verified our ignition coil was good.
Again using the multimeter on the ohm setting, we set it to the 1 ohm position.  Taking one probe and attaching it to the "+" terminal and the other probe on the "-" terminal of the ignition coil, the meter read 1 ohm.  That verifies the primary coil of the ignition coil was OK.

Setting the multimeter to the 1K ohm setting we took one of the probes (it doesn't matter which one) and placing it into the center of the ignition coil (where the coil wire plugs into and goes to the center post of the distributor cap on a car), and the other probe touching either the "+" OR the "-" terminal (doesn't matter which one) on the ignition coil.  The meter read 11K ohms.  This verified the secondary coil in the ignition coil is also OK.

Step 3:  Testing the diodes
Again, using the ohm setting on the multimeter we set it to the 1K setting.  We touched the '+" probe on side of the diode that has the little bar printed on it, and the "-" probe on the other side.  It showed no resistance which is what we expected.  We the reversed the probes and the meter did not move at all, again, what was expected.  If there was any movement in that position, the diode has leakage and therefore bad.  We repeated this with every diode to verify they were good.

Step 4: Connected all the components according to our schematic

Step 5:  Test the "Points and Condenser" emulator
Leaving the diode chain, capacitor/diode in parallel, and leading diode from the inverter disconnected from the spark plug, we flipped the switch back and forth and got a good spark at the spark plug.  This verified our "points and condenser" emulator was working properly as well as verifying the ignition coil was putting out HV.

Step 6:  Testing whether the ignition coil is "+" ve or "-" ve.
We connected the diode string, the diode/capacitor parallel arrangement, and leading rectifying diode to the spark plug, but didn't plug in the AC.  We got NOTHING from the spark plug at all.

We quickly deduced we had an ignition coil that had a "-" ve discharge instead of "+" ve.  To verify this, we disconnected the entire diode string from the other components, reversed it's direction, and placed the string across the spark plug.  We got spark from the coil.  This verified we had a "-" ve coil.

Step 7:  Reverse the circuit for a "-" ve coil.
We reversed the capacitor/diode parallel combination, as well the leading rectifier diode coming off of the inverter.  We disconnected the diode string from the spark plug base and attached it to the capacitor/diode parallel arrangement and the now reversed leading diode.  Again, before plugging in the AC, we tested the spark from the HV.  We got spark every time we opened and closed the switch.  This verified the reversed circuit design for a "-" ve coil.

Step 8:  Plug in the AC

Step 9:  Fire up the circuit DRY (no water)
We flipped the switch back and forth.  We got good, not great PLASMA arcs although they were intermittant.  We observed the HV spark every time we flipped the switch, but the plasma arcs were sporadic.

Step 10:  Test the circuit with water.
We misted the spark plug with water and started flipping the switch back and forth.  The plasma arcs generated were substantially bigger and brighter arcs and louder bangs than when fired dry, however the plasma arcs were still intermittant and didn't yield an arc every time the switch was opened and closed, although we did get the HV spark every time.

A few comments as to why the circuit is designed as is.  The 30 1N4007 diodes are connected in series to prevent the HV from reversing back toward the inverter.  The 500K ohm resistors in parallel with each diode essentially equalizes the diodes. 

Sometimes a diode may not have all the proper characteristics as rated.  If one diode is actually weaker and internally not functioning up to specifications, it will blow and cause a cascading chain of blown diodes.  The 500K ohm resistors in parallel with the diodes equalizes the diodes.

The rectified AC LV side of the circuit will never see the 500K in forward direction because electricity will take the path of least resistance and flow through the diode.  In the reverse direction it will see the reverse opposition of the diode, but if the diode is deficient, it will also see the 500K ohm resistor and thus protect the inverter.

The diode in parallel with capacitor is another safety precaution for the inverter.  The lead diode from the inverter simply rectifies the AC to DC.  The 1 Ohm 40 watt resistor is another protective component for the inverter.

We are very happy about the first test here, but are pretty disappointed in the sporadic plasma arcs.  Does anyone have ideas as to how we can achieve plasma arcs every time we flip the switch back and forth as we have observed with the HV sparks?  Suggestions welcomed!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 13, 2008, 08:12:26 AM
Our Circuit
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 13, 2008, 08:19:55 AM
OK, Trying again to get this to post on screen as opposed to being a file only.  LOL
(http://)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 13, 2008, 11:11:04 AM
Hi Geo,

Great job!  Inevitably I have a couple of questions though...

I can follow the step by step up until about point 7, at which point it seemed a little ambiguous.  Where reversing the cap/diode combination is that the polarity or the order in which they appear? Moving the diode/resistor string is also something I'm unclear about.  Is the circuit diagram after these changes? (I'm assuming so), in which case this is a circuit for a -ve coil(?).  Perhaps it would be possible to mark the points on the diagram with the steps in the description so that it's clear where we should be making changes.  Despite not being an electronics person, I can still follow most of what you're saying, or deduce what you meant, but some of it I can't. 

Great idea about the diode/resistor combo btw.  I guess that could have saved a few inverters :)

Wrt intermittent plasma discharge, if you have a smaller spark gap does it make it any more consistent (if less impressive)?  If so then it looks like it simply needs more voltage.  I have a suspicion about the diode acting as a rectifier.  I don't think it's acting in the way you believe it is.  Again I must stress that I know next to nothing about electronics, but wouldn't that only rectify half of the wave? and therefore be less power than you're expecting?

Finally, you have 2 x 12v sources.  Do they need to be isolated or can they be common?

Thanks again,

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 13, 2008, 12:22:10 PM
Not to detour off topic again...
Thanks Mr Copperpot  ;D
I suggest reading the meyer notes, if you haven't done so, they give you all the details you need.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 13, 2008, 02:17:32 PM
Regarding the rectifier diode, to qualify further, see attachment.

Shiver

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Doug1 on July 13, 2008, 03:58:40 PM
What if you add a tiny amount of alchol to the water to provide a touch of heat and co2 which could be sucked back into the cycle to slow the burn down that way the power from the reactions are extended.
  As for freeze ups if your recycling the water why not try to add antifreeze and see if it improves the effects or has any effect at all besides the arc reaction has on plain water.If it is going to work yr round there has to be a way to keep it from freezing. The method may as well add to the system output.Which will effect the build so why do it over later why not account for it all along.Even in preliminary testing.
  I have a brigs 15 hp tractor and ford 15 pass van set aside to play with once i get started which is not going to be soon.I did notice that coil looks a little bit like the magnostrapper gizmo in some ways which might also be useful later on.As for politics, bite me.The planet needs an enema any way.The only ones who will suffer are the ones who benifiting from the suffering of the majority.They are so isolated from the general population no one will miss them.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gyulasun on July 13, 2008, 04:17:43 PM
Regarding the rectifier diode, to qualify further, see attachment.

Shiver



Hi Shiver,

I do not like your drawing on the half wave rectifier schematics:  your diode conducts in each half wave periode and during this conduction time it short circuits the mains supply!  You have to connect the diode in series with the supply voltage source, not in parallel as you drew.  See this link for some help:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/4.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/4.html) 

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 13, 2008, 04:26:14 PM
Hi Gyula,

That's actually the page that I copied the image from!  Is it true though that the existing version is only allowing half of the wave?

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gyulasun on July 13, 2008, 04:43:08 PM
Hi Gyula,

That's actually the page that I copied the image from!  Is it true though that the existing version is only allowing half of the wave?

Shiver

Hi Shiver,

Lol...   but I do not seem to find that image you copied, where is that page exactly?

Well, if you connect the diode in series with the load (and not in parallel with the AC voltage source), then indeed the diode will conduct in every half periode of the full AC wave. (So if you have a 60Hz AC input voltage, the output half wave pulses will have a 120Hz frequency, the diode as shown in the first picture in my link http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/4.html  will conduct in every positive AC input  and will block current in every negative AC input wave periode (we consider positive input here as an increasing AC voltage from zero value and negative input as a decreasing value from zero to a negative maximum, ok?).

rgds, Gyula

EDIT:  in case you connect the diode in parallel with the AC source (in the picture it is the 120V AC mains), then a very very high current will flow through the diode in the half wave periodes when the diode is able to conduct: its current ratings will be wastly exceeded and it gets fried and triggers the mains circuit braker... 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 13, 2008, 04:48:46 PM
Hi Shiver,

Lol...   but I do not seem to find that image you copied, where is that page exactly?

rgds, Gyula

It's the 7th Image down, underneath which it says "Full-wave bridge rectifier".

I understand what you're saying about in series or in parallel, but I don't know how that's expressed in these diagrams as they're new to me.

Cheers
Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gyulasun on July 13, 2008, 05:03:52 PM
It's the 7th Image down, underneath which it says "Full-wave bridge rectifier".

I understand what you're saying about in series or in parallel, but I don't know how that's expressed in these diagrams as they're new to me.

Cheers
Shiver

Yes but in the 7th image there are four diodes and not one diode in parallel with the 120V mains as is seen in your picture... and I referred to the one diode in parallel with the mains in your picture in your reply #834 ( previous thread). 
All I mean is that your half wave rectifier is not correct in your picture, the diode should be connected in series with the load and not in parallel with the  AC voltage source, ok?

Gyula


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: poynt99 on July 13, 2008, 05:34:47 PM
@Shiver,

yes, i believe you have a good idea. geo, you might want to try using a full wave bridge, not just half wave as you have there with the single diode. also, i would suggest using the diode types ossie suggested and is using, the 1N5404, and fewer (16) would be better also. the diodes are there for protection, but they should be able to "switch" as fast as possible to maximize the effect. you may also try a couple 1N4007's in series with the HV output to isolate the coil from the LV output.

@gyla,

that second parallel diode is not part of the rectifier, and it is not Shiver's diagram, it is geo's. that second parallel diode is for protection in case the long series diode string should break down, it will "short" the negative pulse to gnd rather than blowing up the inverter. this is basic electronics stuff.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gyulasun on July 13, 2008, 05:47:48 PM
...
@gyla,

that second parallel diode is not part of the rectifier, and it is not Shiver's diagram, it is geo's. that second parallel diode is for protection in case the long series diode string should break down, it will "short" the negative pulse to gnd rather than blowing up the inverter. this is basic electronics stuff.

Ok, thanks for clarification, now I understand the full situation...  When I responded first, all I saw a diode shunting the 120V mains supply in his picture, and I objected it.  :)

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 13, 2008, 06:48:59 PM
Hi Gang,

Some pictures of my engine/driver slowly coming together.  Fox 78 R/C engine, modified, Flywheel is 6" grinding wheel, Water tank not yet mounted. Have all the parts to finish, just takes time.  Electronics proved on breadboard, will point to point wire it up and mount it......Had to fill and drill flywheel with metal filled epoxy to 5/16 to mount on motor...........etc. etc. etc.  This was just a dry run to see if major components would fit on the "cutting board" I found @ Bed-Bath & Beyond......

Sure would like to see others projects!  Anybody building out there?

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 13, 2008, 07:19:39 PM
That spark plug is just about as big as the motor!! lol I'm waiting on bigger amperage diodes to get here so I can continue with mine. I'm thinking about adding a spark plug or two to the old kohler I'm testing with but I'm already having trouble with the starter draining the power to the ignition system, having to put a separate battery on the coil and points.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 13, 2008, 08:13:08 PM
I think we're all on the same page regarding the rectifier.  My apologies for not being able to express properly what looked like an issue, as electronics isn't my forte (yet).  I've probably learned as much on this thread as all my previous life regarding electronics.

I will build something when I go back to UK which will be a month or two yet (in Thailand at the moment, and language limitations are an issue to smooth accumulation of needed parts).  I have a good electronics guy in Bangkok, and a good engineer and workshop back home, so am hoping to coordinate travel/people/locations to make it all happen.  In the meantime I'm just building it in my head and making sure I understand the task in hand.

Cheers

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 13, 2008, 08:18:39 PM
That spark plug is just about as big as the motor!! lol I'm waiting on bigger amperage diodes to get here so I can continue with mine. I'm thinking about adding a spark plug or two to the old kohler I'm testing with but I'm already having trouble with the starter draining the power to the ignition system, having to put a separate battery on the coil and points.

Yes it is out of purportion but if you look inside, it is just a nice plasma plug/area......I hope it works as ugly as it looks!!!!!
Remember, the plasma doesn't spread out, what is in the ball is what you get so in my case, bigger ball works better...I hope.

Good idea using separate batteries.......

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 13, 2008, 08:44:07 PM
@k4zep:

Over kill for a bench grinder ...dont ya think  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: petersone on July 13, 2008, 08:53:58 PM
@Xbox Hacker
Over kill!!! not if it runs on water!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 13, 2008, 09:35:03 PM
@Xbox Hacker
Over kill!!! not if it runs on water!!

Hi Xbox and all, 

Harrrrrrrrrrrr............I'll just run the exhaust out on the wheel and if it actually runs which I give it a 50/50 shot for this first try. It will wet the grinder, make me grin and ...I'll call it my  "Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator" motor! This is to honnor "Marvin the Martian".............(You know from the old Bugs Bunny on Mars cartoons!).  Folks, we do with what we can get ahold of!

Done for the day, family stuff...........

Having Fun
Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: radicalzero on July 13, 2008, 10:31:43 PM
Hey guys! Great work. I have been following this thread for sometime now. I was just wondering if you couldn't just hook up a second alternator in your automobile but remove the diode tree from it and run just ac from it. Could this replace the inverter or am I missing something? I am currently bench testing with old scrap parts from microwaves etc to get my own plasma system running. You guys have been a great inspiration. thanx again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 13, 2008, 10:38:13 PM
Yes it is out of purportion but if you look inside, it is just a nice plasma plug/area......I hope it works as ugly as it looks!!!!!
Remember, the plasma doesn't spread out, what is in the ball is what you get so in my case, bigger ball works better...I hope.

Good idea using separate batteries.......

Ben

Exactly, that's why I just added a plug to mine. I put it right on the edge of the squish area hoping it'll swirl the water right onto the plug as the piston comes up. I really think a very small combustion chamber would help alot too. I believe that lil motor you've got there will run. I forgot to take a pic after I bored the hole so the arrow is pointing to where the new hole is. The new plug is on the right in the second pic.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/NXSLT1/extraplug.jpg)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/NXSLT1/newplug.jpg)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 13, 2008, 11:36:13 PM
Hi all,

Shriver:  I can follow the step by step up until about point 7, at which point it seemed a little ambiguous.  Where reversing the cap/diode combination is that the polarity or the order in which they appear?

We discovered we had a "-" ve ignition coil and therefore instead of working from the positive side, we had to work from the negative side.  Everything had to be reversed.  Please re-read the verification process as to how we knew we had a "-" ve coil.  We removed the thirty diode chain completely from the circuit and connected one end to the top of the spark plug, and the other end at the spark plug base.  We then flipped the switch back and forth, and didn't get a spark.  That is because in that particular configuration, the HV was not being blocked and therefore didn't force the HV to go through the spark plug.  When we reversed the thirty diode chain, it did block everything coming from the HV coil (aside from the diode blocking, the HV was also seeing the 500K resistors) and the only available path the HV could have taken was directly through the spark plug, hence the spark was observed.  The reason we disconnected the diode chain FIRST from the rest of the circuit, was to make sure the HV wouldn't hit the inverter in the event we did have a "-" ve coil, and therefore only testing for the direction of the HV using the diode chain alone.

Moving the diode/resistor string is also something I'm unclear about.  Is the circuit diagram after these changes? (I'm assuming so), in which case this is a circuit for a -ve coil(?).  Perhaps it would be possible to mark the points on the diagram with the steps in the description so that it's clear where we should be making changes.  Despite not being an electronics person, I can still follow most of what you're saying, or deduce what you meant, but some of it I can't.

No.  This posted circuit diagram is for a "+" ve coil as we originally thought we had.  After seeing we had no spark whatsoever from the coil once the LV part of the circuit was attached but NOT PLUGGED IN, we realized we had a "-" ve coil, and hence had to operate the LV part of the circuit from the negative side, which meant reversing everything. 

Great idea about the diode/resistor combo btw.  I guess that could have saved a few inverters 

Wrt intermittent plasma discharge, if you have a smaller spark gap does it make it any more consistent (if less impressive)?  If so then it looks like it simply needs more voltage.  I have a suspicion about the diode acting as a rectifier.

A diode is a rectifier.  It only allows current to flow in one direction only!

I don't think it's acting in the way you believe it is.  Again I must stress that I know next to nothing about electronics, but wouldn't that only rectify half of the wave? and therefore be less power than you're expecting?

The leading diode (after the resistor) is half-wave rectification as we are only using one side ("+") or ("-") of the inverter, depending on what type of coil we have.  The circuit is for a "+" ve coil, but we had to reverse everything.  Just look at the circuit and turn the "arrows" of every diode the other way.  Also, the capacitor had to be turned the other way as well, i.e. instead of the "+" side of the capacitor being on top as in the original diagram, it is turned upside down, so the "-" is on top.  Instead of all the diodes "pointing to the right, they had to be reversed to point to the left.  The diode in parallel with the capacitor had to be pointing down, instead of pointing up as the original circuit showed. 

Again, the circuit shown was designed for a "+" ve ignition coils, as we expected that is what we had.  Unfortunately, we didn't and had to make corrections at the bench.  LOL


Finally, you have 2 x 12v sources.  Do they need to be isolated or can they be common?

They are 2 separate sources.  One feeds the ignition circuit (just like in your car).  The other 12VDC source (another car battery for instance) is the power input for the inverter to yield a 120VAC.

Poynt99:  geo, ... also, i would suggest using the diode types ossie suggested and is using, the 1N5404, and fewer (16) would be better also. the diodes are there for protection, but they should be able to "switch" as fast as possible to maximize the effect.

Poynt99, the 1N5404 diodes are only 400 volts 3 amps vs. 1N4007 diodes at 1000 volts 1 amp.  A standard ignition coil HV output typically ranges from 30Kv to 45Kv.  That is why we have thirty 1N4007 diodes.  1N5404 diodes x 16 is only 6,400 volts of protection.  If the HV coil output somehow fed back to the LV side of the circuit, it would never handle the 30Kv - 45Kv hitting it.  Although the 1N5404 diodes have a 1200 watt rating (400 volts x 3 amps) vs. the 1N4007 at 1000 watts (1000 volts x 1 amp), it is not the amperage (substantially less than 1 amp) coming from the HV coil we need to worry about "blasting" the inverter... it's the volts!

We still need to figure out why the plasma arcs are sporadic even though we observed the HV spark every time.  Any help, ideas, and thoughts are welcome!

Regards,
Geo


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 13, 2008, 11:50:40 PM
@Radicalzero
Hey guys! Great work. I have been following this thread for sometime now. I was just wondering if you couldn't just hook up a second alternator in your automobile but remove the diode tree from it and run just ac from it. Could this replace the inverter or am I missing something? I am currently bench testing with old scrap parts from microwaves etc to get my own plasma system running. You guys have been a great inspiration. thanx again.

Although an alternator with or without it's diodes delivers plenty of  volts and amps, in order for it to function, it has to be turning, which means the engine has to be running.  We need to have the plasma arc during startup of the car, as well as while it's running.

Hope this helped.
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 14, 2008, 12:18:04 AM

We still need to figure out why the plasma arcs are sporadic even though we observed the HV spark every time.  Any help, ideas, and thoughts are welcome!

Regards,
Geo

I thought it looked pretty clear that since you were using a half wave you had only half of the power available(?).  That could easily explain the intermittent firing.

Cheers
Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 14, 2008, 12:44:13 AM
Exactly, that's why I just added a plug to mine. I put it right on the edge of the squish area hoping it'll swirl the water right onto the plug as the piston comes up. I really think a very small combustion chamber would help alot too. I believe that lil motor you've got there will run. I forgot to take a pic after I bored the hole so the arrow is pointing to where the new hole is. The new plug is on the right in the second pic.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/NXSLT1/extraplug.jpg)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/NXSLT1/newplug.jpg)



Hi Bulmfuz,

If you would drill and tap a small 1/8 hole betwen those two plugs, put a 1/8 injector tube in it, give or take, put a small nozzle/restrictor to spray it on the outlet, feed water to it with a high pressure check valve so water could go/suck in with the down stroke, but nothing go out on the upstroke, needle valve it so you could control total amount/stroke, I think you could have a very nice injector on that B&S engine.  I plan to do that on my next SMALLER engine.  You need solid steel or brass up to the check valve, then any type of tubing after that.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: radicalzero on July 14, 2008, 01:06:43 AM
Thankx geovel56 for the reply. lol I have been so busy bench testing that I "forgot" about the engine starting. I guess I'm getting ahead of myself again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 14, 2008, 02:05:31 AM
I thought it looked pretty clear that since you were using a half wave you had only half of the power available(?).  That could easily explain the intermittent firing.

Cheers
Shiver

I'm not sure you understand the circuit then.  The power on the LV side is coming from the capacitor discharge (just like all the other circuits others have displayed).  It takes a few milliseconds to charge up fully.  Once it is fully charged, all the power in the world as input will not charge it up any more (and probably fry everything with "all the power input in the world!"  LOL). 

Manually flipping the switch back and forth could never get close to being faster than the LV capacitor part of the circuit charges up and discharges.  The ignition coil fires every time no matter how fast I flipped the switch (because again, I could never flip it faster than the coil charges and discharges.  I don't think a bigger capacitor on the LV side will do any better, but that will be my next test, maybe 100 microfarad capacitor.


Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 14, 2008, 02:09:58 AM
Several of you are way ahead of me on engine modifications already. I'm still working on a high speed plasma spark and did a small test by confining the spark and topping it with a marble. The video shows the water does make a difference in actual work energy. I noticed the 'pulse' was also able to shake bits of dust loose from the rafters, I would see this float down after a test with the open ended chamber. You can feel this pulse if you hold you hand a foot away. Here is the video of my brief test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yn0AOUnOU

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 14, 2008, 02:37:55 AM
Several of you are way ahead of me on engine modifications already. I'm still working on a high speed plasma spark and did a small test by confining the spark and topping it with a marble. The video shows the water does make a difference in actual work energy. I noticed the 'pulse' was also able to shake bits of dust loose from the rafters, I would see this float down after a test with the open ended chamber. You can feel this pulse if you hold you hand a foot away. Here is the video of my brief test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yn0AOUnOU

RD

F**king fantastic video mate!!! that amount of movement with NO compression.. cant wait to see what 10.5:1 will do in a car engine... or 8.5:1 with 13psi of boost!   As i asked in the video, can you give us a rundown of your specs?  How many amps from mains?, is it using straight AC or rectified DC first? Got a digram for your voltage doubler?  how many volts is your counties mains power? how many diodes and what specs?

I have a feeling geovels (and my) inconsistent plasma sparks are due to lack of voltage and/or incorrect wave form (half rectified vs straight ac).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 14, 2008, 03:01:46 AM
F**king fantastic video mate!!! that amount of movement with NO compression.. cant wait to see what 10.5:1 will do in a car engine... or 8.5:1 with 13psi of boost!   As i asked in the video, can you give us a rundown of your specs?  What size inverter, is it using straight AC or rectified DC first?  how many volts are you getting at the plug end? how many diodes and what specs?

I have a feeling geovels (and my) inconsistent plasma sparks are due to lack of voltage and/or incorrect wave form (half rectified vs straight ac).

Thanks for the enthusiastic comments  :). For this test I was not using an inverter. The power for the low voltage plasma was from the 120volt AC mains. I used a simple voltage doubler circuit, I used two different cap values in the circuit, the first (C1) is 950uf and the second or output cap (C2) is 100uf. The first cap is rated at 450vdc and the second was a unit I had in the shop is rated at 2.7kv, a slight overkill  :) 450vdc should be ok. The output voltage was around 350 volts. I used an old iso-tap transformer for some degree of safety & isolation. To pulse the ignition coil I was using my function generator driving a IRF640 mosfet. For diodes I used 16 series 1N5404, nothing exotic.
I think we need a good, cheap & fast way (high frequency?) to charge these capacitors. I don't think brute force like what I have demonstrated in the video,is going to cut it in the long run.

Regards,
Rd
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 14, 2008, 03:09:00 AM
There are many different varieties around that different people are using, i have tried this one using 33uf capacitors, i am thinking they are not big enough.  I might get a couple bigger caps and try it again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 14, 2008, 03:27:12 AM
Several of you are way ahead of me on engine modifications already. I'm still working on a high speed plasma spark and did a small test by confining the spark and topping it with a marble. The video shows the water does make a difference in actual work energy. I noticed the 'pulse' was also able to shake bits of dust loose from the rafters, I would see this float down after a test with the open ended chamber. You can feel this pulse if you hold you hand a foot away. Here is the video of my brief test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yn0AOUnOU

RD

Hi RD,

I would like to commend you on this video and make a note to others that it is indeed a marble and not a foam ball that you are lifting with a water explosion. A marble does have considerable mass and requires REAL power to be lifted. Such video examples proving the proof of concept can only help in our endevour to gain awareness of this process in an effort to further it's development.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 14, 2008, 03:45:32 AM
@ninjadaniel

Inconsistent sparks could possibly be from high impedance causing the coil secondary coil to short to its core to ground.  Check that the HV lead is all the way into the coil, and the the resistance is low to the plug and the gap is not too wide.  One should never fire the coil without the HV wire inserted to a plug or to ground.  If you fire the coil without a HV wire in it, the HV will jump across the fine secondary windings to the core and burn its insulation.  Check the resistance of the secondary and see if it is less that you started.  Should be around 10 to 12k ohms.  If less, it could mean the secondary HV winding is shorting to its core.

tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 14, 2008, 03:50:44 AM
Hi Bulmfuz,

If you would drill and tap a small 1/8 hole betwen those two plugs, put a 1/8 injector tube in it, give or take, put a small nozzle/restrictor to spray it on the outlet, feed water to it with a high pressure check valve so water could go/suck in with the down stroke, but nothing go out on the upstroke, needle valve it so you could control total amount/stroke, I think you could have a very nice injector on that B&S engine.  I plan to do that on my next SMALLER engine.  You need solid steel or brass up to the check valve, then any type of tubing after that.

Ben

An injector of some sort is in the works but I wanna try it like this for now, soon as my diodes get here. I turned the motor over a few times with the choke on, no circuit hooked to it, then pulled the plugs out to look at them and the plug in the original plug hole wasn't very wet but the plug in the new hole was dripping wet, we'll see what happens in the next few days.

By the way, I love watching Marvin the Martian.  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 14, 2008, 03:53:30 AM
Hi RD,

I would like to commend you on this video and make a note to others that it is indeed a marble and not a foam ball that you are lifting with a water explosion. A marble does have considerable mass and requires REAL power to be lifted. Such video examples proving the proof of concept can only help in our endevour to gain awareness of this process in an effort to further it's development.

Regards,

Ossie


Thank you Ossie, yes it is a real old time standard glass marble, I do not have the weight. I have access to a postal scale on Tuesday though. The metal cylinder chamber I used did not seal at the base of the plug so I would imagine some energy was lost at that junction. I would have conducted a few more experiments but I was booted out of the laundry room and had to dismantle the set-up prematurely. Such are the hazards of water plasma research  :).

Regards,

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 14, 2008, 03:53:42 AM
@ninjadaniel

Inconsistent sparks could possibly be from high impedance causing the coil secondary coil to short to its core to ground.  Check that the HV lead is all the way into the coil, and the the resistance is low to the plug and the gap is not too wide.  One should never fire the coil without the HV wire inserted to a plug or to ground.  If you fire the coil without a HV wire in it, the HV will jump across the fine secondary windings to the core and burn its insulation.  Check the resistance of the secondary and see if it is less that you started.  Should be around 10 to 12k ohms.  If less, it could mean the secondary HV winding is shorting to its core.

tishatang



A good plug and very good ground helps too. I was having trouble with consistent arcs out in the open til I changed plugs and grounded it real good.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 14, 2008, 03:55:00 AM
It takes a few milliseconds to charge up fully. 
Regards,
Geo

Yes I see, I wasn't thinking along a time line but I understand now. 

@Retrod
Thanks for demonstrating the existence of real motive power.  It's something I've been hoping for all along in this thread, and is very encouraging news indeed.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ggx9 on July 14, 2008, 05:35:43 AM
Hi K4zep,

Isn't the operating RPM of the Fox 78 far higher than the burst RPM of the grinding wheel? Also, I've had great difficulty with severe vibration in similar high RPM setups.

Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 14, 2008, 06:19:55 AM
Hi everyone,

I have been busy with a job I had to start 2 weeks ago, so I barely have any time to work on the development. However I have been following the topic every day and I can say that today is a good posting day as many of the post are on topic. Great job to everyone involved, keep it up.

I know that some of you would like me to play more the moderator role and delete what is not on topic but I chose not to do that for many reasons. So please continue as is and things will get better as we get busy with development and if someone posts off topic stuff just ignore it instead of wasting your time and energy in argument. However if a post is negative towards anyone or anything please let me know and I will delete it.

I just updated my simple circuit today since as indicated before by Aaron of the Energetic forum, the Capacitor alone is all that is needed, also another user of that forum showed that my circuit still kept the bridge side connected as the cap discharged. With the new change the circuit is working the best so far. Also you can now plug it right in the wall since the switch brakes the bridge from the cap and circuit at discharge.

I made a new video to reflect all the changes to date:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE

Please have a look and see if it's good.

Luc

Added link to schematics: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.0.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 14, 2008, 07:56:35 AM
BAM! we have plasma spark!!

Just made a voltage doubler as seen in the diagram in posts above.  Using 450v 330uf as C1 and 450v 150uf as C2, 1n5408 diodes.  Charge it up to around 350v and BANG, very very nice plasma spark (my dad could hear it from across the street).  I think 1x 12kv microwave diode is not enough to protect the inverter as i just blew a cheapo 150w one.  For future tests i will try 4 of these (2 in series with another 2 to allow 1amp and block 24kv).

A few tips, if your engine has a positive earth/chassis, you will be unable to get any sort of plasma spark without making a custom plug allowing you to put a protection diode to stop the LV going back into the engine,  without this diode you may get a spark or two but more often than not you will end up with a dead short.  However for tests, simply bring the plug away from the engine, run a "ground" wire back to the engine with the diode in it- this will simulate a custom plug.

Another thing, with these voltage doublers, you will find they will charge extremely fast... so keep an eye on your multimeter and dont let them blow up!  I am/was using a 150w inverter which gave me plenty of time to watch the volts go up on the multi.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 14, 2008, 09:31:14 AM
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/ninjanet/DSC00413.jpg
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/ninjanet/DSC00414.jpg
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/ninjanet/DSC00415.jpg
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/ninjanet/DSC00416.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 14, 2008, 09:46:49 AM
Quote
I would like to commend you on this video and make a note to others that it is indeed a marble and not a foam ball that you are lifting with a water explosion. A marble does have considerable mass and requires REAL power to be lifted. Such video examples proving the proof of concept can only help in our endevour to gain awareness of this process in an effort to further it's development.

First I want to congratulate for a good demonstration of the principle.
But on the other hand I still feel, that people should not become too overexcited too soon. Because simple calculations show, that your 100uf will have an energy stored of about 5J. Let's say the marble jumped 10cm=0.1m (about 4 inches), then from the energy standpoint, this energy should be enough to have lifted 5kg (11lbs) this 10cm up in the air.
But I think what you do is good. First get it running, and then try to optimize the efficiency.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 14, 2008, 09:57:48 AM
To be fair, it was just an aside finding something that would roughly fit to give an idea that there's some kind of work being done.  That alone is a great advance.  Once I have mine built to satisfaction, the first thing I'll be doing is making something to reasonably accurately measure what energy is being made available.  I hope somebody beats me to it, because I won't even be able to start until September  :'(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 14, 2008, 12:03:55 PM
Luc,

Great Vid. Can't find the circuit link, please post.
Thanks.

D.

At everyone, the most updated circuit is at my first post of this topic! here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.0.html

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 14, 2008, 12:34:12 PM
Luc,

Great Vid. Can't find the circuit link, please post.
Thanks.

D.

Luc has moderator privileges so he can update the very first post on page one.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.0/topicseen.html

This post contains the update circuit.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 14, 2008, 01:16:45 PM
Yes I see, I wasn't thinking along a time line but I understand now. 

@Retrod
Thanks for demonstrating the existence of real motive power.  It's something I've been hoping for all along in this thread, and is very encouraging news indeed.


Your welcome, it was fun! Keep in mind that today we are using a simple spark to open a plasma channel. Take a look at this video and you will see how a UV laser can also be used in place of a spark to open that channel! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJF3qBWyUk
A 'blu-ray' laser comes to mind as a possible test mule. If we find multiple channels are needed in sequence or simultaneously this could be an avenue of research. Just food for thought to bookmark for the future.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 14, 2008, 01:21:34 PM
Hi K4zep,

Isn't the operating RPM of the Fox 78 far higher than the burst RPM of the grinding wheel? Also, I've had great difficulty with severe vibration in similar high RPM setups.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Under normal conditions, the FOX 78 would be running 8-10K RPM but as built here, I plan only to run a few hundred to maybe 1K RPM.  Wheel good up to about 4-6K I think it said on the wrapper.....Thanks for the concern.....

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 14, 2008, 03:20:39 PM
Hi all,
Instead of trying to convert or build a rotation motor, operated by the Water Power Effect (WPE), maybe consider to produce electric power directly by WPE in closed cell, without moving parts, by using photoelectric effect and/or piezoelectric effect. This can let you skip over problems like timing etc.
Regards,
Zayith


Hi Zayith, this sounds like a good suggestion. I would encourage you to start experimenting on this and start a new topic to which you can post a link to in this topic so we can all support your development.

Thanks for posting.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 14, 2008, 03:38:52 PM
Your welcome, it was fun! Keep in mind that today we are using a simple spark to open a plasma channel. Take a look at this video and you will see how a UV laser can also be used in place of a spark to open that channel! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJF3qBWyUk
A 'blu-ray' laser comes to mind as a possible test mule. If we find multiple channels are needed in sequence or simultaneously this could be an avenue of research. Just food for thought to bookmark for the future.

RD

Hi retrod, very interesting I must say. I also found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHJhpStza0&NR=1 which has a visible shock wave. Please if you can start research on this and start a new topic and post your link here so we can all support your research and development.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 14, 2008, 03:50:51 PM
@gotoluc
Impressive find, but it doesn't seem to be a shockwave, the laser frequency is higher than the framerate or shutterspeed of the camerasensor, thus you see multiple pulses in 1 frame. The shockwave is visible when he puts the knife in the light and reflects to the camera.
But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 14, 2008, 06:46:01 PM
Has anyone acces to a very high speed camera? Would be cool to see the spark at 1000fps.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 14, 2008, 07:30:56 PM
Wow! Great work Luc. You continue to impress and amaze ;)

Sry to go off-topic but this is important imo:

Regarding lasers: I and several people i know in the same line of work who spent alot of time around them have gotten cataracts way before our times. At age 40, i had to have both eyes done. The surgery is no big deal but it is a nuisance to always have to use reading glasses now for close work, when before my eyesight was always 20/20 (the plastic lenses wont bend to focus like the "originals" did). Lasers can take 50 years off the life of your natural lenses so be careful around them ;)

If you suspect you might be getting cataracts, find a microscope and look into it: They will be seen reflected back as "amoeba" like blobs looking somewhat like a "hair ball", lol. Like i said its not terrible to get them fixed with implants but it costs as much as $12k per eye to have it done in the US and if you don't have insurance.... 

Incidences of cataracts have risen greatly in the last 20 years especially among younger people. I never looked at a laser directly: But backscatter can be bad enough over time.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 14, 2008, 07:55:44 PM
Well somebody in the yahoo groups forum just found this patent US 6553981 (get it at www.pat2pdf.org (http://www.pat2pdf.org))

Well, it's exactly what we have here...

It even describes the different spark plug configurations and also different circuits versions (e.g. Circuits without the diodes and just with the coils for blocking, or with snubbers, etc, ...)

See one example here (They just have a CDI System for ignition):
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 14, 2008, 08:07:27 PM
Double Post ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dmoney on July 14, 2008, 10:12:50 PM
Luc,

Over a WaterFuel1978, they all seem to have an isolating transformer to protect their inverter.  Can you add an isolating transformer to you diagram?

Darren
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 14, 2008, 10:23:12 PM
Where does one get an isolating transformer, and which model should a person use for this? I think Luc's current design eliminates the need for it because the inverter is not in the circuit when the relay switches.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 14, 2008, 11:41:00 PM
Has anyone acces to a very high speed camera? Would be cool to see the spark at 1000fps.

I'd like to see one in a water engine combustion chamber. I've seen them in gasoline motors before, pretty cool.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 14, 2008, 11:46:18 PM
Quote
Over a WaterFuel1978, they all seem to have an isolating transformer to protect their inverter.  Can you add an isolating transformer to you diagram?

Quote
I think Luc's current design eliminates the need for it because the inverter is not in the circuit when the relay switches.

An isolation transformer is usually just a 1:1 transformer to decouple two power systems. In the water group they do this to protect the inverter. In my opinion just a choke coil (maybe with a snubber cap or even a good transil diode) should suffice to get rid of the surge, and would mainly be much cheaper. The inverter is still needed for the LV. The inverter generates the 320Volts (rectified) from the 12V to charge the cap. So even if during the firing the inverter does nothing, prior to the firing the inverter charges the cap.

But it would be much more efficient to make an own LV circuit, because for this application (DC output) an inverter is actually quite the worst thing one could take, due to low frequency and sine signal. An Usual HF switched Power Supply, would be much more space efficient. But as it seems you can get them quite cheap, it will be easier that way. Here where I live one cannot get inverters so cheap...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bigfun on July 15, 2008, 01:09:49 AM
Please ignore bigfun posts from now on. He is here to ridiculize everyone. He has posted ridiculizing comments on my Youtube and I have blocked him there. If he posts here one more time I will ask Stefan to block him also.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 15, 2008, 01:14:31 AM
@Shanti

I agree, i think a "Boost Converter", "DC-DC Step Up Converter" is a much better solution than using an inverter then taking the sine wave out of it anyway.

I plan to build a pulse width modulator and get it to run a boost converter to power a 450v capacitor this week, if i can find a cheap pwm kit.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 15, 2008, 01:32:48 AM
I'm new here, but I have some experience with Chemistry and Electronics and would very much like to help out and get water working as an automotive fuel.  I have a question for those with more experience here before I get my garage up and running as a water burning laboratory.  In order to burn, water is going to need to react with some other chemical.  Does anyone have any ideas about what chemical water might be reacting with in this highly impressive reaction?  Potential chemicals include nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere, or perhaps even carbon dioxide.  And once water burns, it must be ending up as some new chemical byproducts, ones presumably at a lower energy state than water (which conventional science tells us is already in a very low energy state).  Does anyone have any idea what byproducts burned water might be turning into?  This will help me a lot with the experiments I perform. I'm also a little bit nervous about unleashing too much of a reaction, one that would spill over into nearby sources of water such as the creek that runs past my home. I don't want it become a fuse that blows up the oceans!  We've all read Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, right?

Bigfun

It looks like you are coming into this  project  with alot of excess  baggage.

 :)

In  general   more knowledge is better .   The problem is   not  all that we  have been taught  is compleatly true .
If you  are going to   make any progress here you  are going to  have to    let go of some of your preconceptions   of  what is actually  going on .........

Get your hands dirty  and  see what is  going on for  yourself . 


You  are right ..........there is a secret  ingredient .   It is called PLASMA   
The   process involves  plasma and  water,  that is all     
As far as I know there are  no  known  byproducts .   


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 15, 2008, 02:43:25 AM
Well somebody in the yahoo groups forum just found this patent US 6553981 (get it at www.pat2pdf.org (http://www.pat2pdf.org))

Well, it's exactly what we have here...

It even describes the different spark plug configurations and also different circuits versions (e.g. Circuits without the diodes and just with the coils for blocking, or with snubbers, etc, ...)

See one example here (They just have a CDI System for ignition):


Hi Gang,

Damn that patent, just scanned through it and it covers it ALL, spark gap technology at it's finest.  S1R has been pulling our chains.

From my experiments today, it appears that if you put the equivalent of 1 hp (700 + watts and please don't get nitpicking here) of electrical spark/plasma in a cylinder and use that plasma to expand/explode/turn to steam, water, (a plasma flash boiler) you get a mechanical equivalent somewhat to a lot less than a hp out, I see no evidence of excess mechanical power here.............I have my motor where I can try basic circuits on it (have been working all day finalizing circuitry) and it is very discouraging from an output point of view.  I have not achieved continuous running but it is obvious it will run on about a 200J + spark with a little bit of water but I am not seeing the excess output that I had hoped to..........................I am at a very critical point in my experiment as to whether I want to "Prove" it will work as a low output power device  ( I hate failure)  and finish up the demo "engine", or just saying "yah, neat idea but no banana" and donate the engine to my pile of junk...........Just remember how much torque/power a 1 HP DC motor has!

 I get a very demonstrable power pulse with 4200uf @ 300 VDC...........about 189 J. but again, this won't do anything but "run" the motor, and contrary to popular opinion I feel that it will eat plugs alive with a 500-1KJ pulse if you really want to scream.........So........where to go from here..................There is a old country song I like..goes like this..."""""You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them""""""""............""""""Know when to walk away"........Know when to "run"""""""""""....................arrrgghhhhhhhhh.  Got to sit on this for a day or two............I am highly disappointed..........

Heck, I might convert to hydrogen and see what that gets me..............



Ben



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bigfun on July 15, 2008, 03:29:44 AM
Please ignore bigfun posts from now on. He is here to ridiculize everyone. He has posted ridiculizing comments on my Youtube and I have blocked him there. If he posts here one more time I will ask Stefan to block him also.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 15, 2008, 04:10:31 AM
I think Ben's reaction is to be expected. But with these kinds of projects, it seems to come down to what you believe in. You could argue it was fake all along, or you could argue that you just haven't found the answer yet. I choose to believe that Peter Graneau has told us the truth and that he really did explode water. He has a book, btw... I've ordered a copy. Do some shopping online if you're going to get it. Some sites were selling it for around $70, but one I found was more like $30 or $40.

I also recognize that the spark plug modification we are using here is a lot like the one used by Daniel Dingel in his patent... well, I think www.DanielDingel.com claims he doesn't have any patents, yet this guy, http://www.jcmiras.net/jcm/item/75/ claims to have read through a Dingel patent and makes a couple observations, one of which being that he has placed a cap across his ignition coil. Although, he also claims Dingel is using a water/oil emulsion, which he wouldn't be doing if it was a water-only car, so this does create more questions than it answers.

Next, you have to remember that Robert Krupa's spark plugs have been observed to explode water, by creating a plasma. What's also important to note is that Robert claims he is able to gain a fuel economy of 44% just by switching the car to his plugs! That's a lot of money to be saved if you're a company that runs work trucks, or generators, or diesel burning water heaters! Has anyone in this group even thought about testing these for more efficient fuel burning? What about the relation between this modification and Meyer electrolysis or Gray/Tesla spark gap experiments? (btw, k4zep, save your two-stroke for Christ's sake, test it for better fuel economy. You can't lube a crank case with water, even if you do have FE)

No, this technique is very very valuable, but it is not the complete answer. Time to keep on truckin'.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 15, 2008, 04:19:15 AM
Ben,
 Great work. Please continue if possible. You have spend all this time to get this far you might as well play with it a bit to get it to run continuously. You may find something along the way that might improve things. Once you get it running stable you might be able to get a plasma spark with an input energy below 700 watts.
  Thoughts to ponder. What if it is not a linear relationship. What if it gets more efficient the larger the engine you have or the more cylinders you have ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 15, 2008, 04:36:54 AM
Ben,
 Great work. Please continue if possible. You have spend all this time to get this far you might as well play with it a bit to get it to run continuously. You may find something along the way that might improve things. Once you get it running stable you might be able to get a plasma spark with an input energy below 700 watts.
  Thoughts to ponder. What if it is not a linear relationship. What if it gets more efficient the larger the engine you have or the more cylinders you have ?

Hi Hydro,

I'll finish it for finishing sake.....When you charge up a 4200 uf to 300 V, it is absolutely deadly if you get across it.  Huge peak currents, fire in the hole so to speak.  I would like to see it run under control just one time.......The problem is you are running with very short pulse of very high power and the average power even with huge pulses is not that great.  The explosion is of such short duration depending on the size of the wire in the LV side and the total inductance in the circuit that we have to look at the power output completely different than in a normal IC engine with a long power generation pulse. With water, it is SO fast/short.......All the rest of the time, the engine is coasting......

When I actually started firing the engine and realized it's limitations early today, I was totally PO'ed with it......and have few illusions about it now.  It is a technology that will work but practical, I don't know yet. 

I feel it might be better suited for a continuous extremely high power conversion process using turbine or turbo fan technology or direct conversion of mas to thrust as in a open rocket/explosive type of external drive engine.....dare I say possibly an Aurora type of drive?........Hummmmmmmmmmmmm.  Don't ask...........Just think.

Anyone know what Graneau is doing these days?

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 15, 2008, 04:38:01 AM
Wow! Great work Luc. You continue to impress and amaze ;)

Sry to go off-topic but this is important imo:

Regarding lasers: I and several people i know in the same line of work who spent alot of time around them have gotten cataracts way before our times. At age 40, i had to have both eyes done. The surgery is no big deal but it is a nuisance to always have to use reading glasses now for close work, when before my eyesight was always 20/20 (the plastic lenses wont bend to focus like the "originals" did). Lasers can take 50 years off the life of your natural lenses so be careful around them ;)

If you suspect you might be getting cataracts, find a microscope and look into it: They will be seen reflected back as "amoeba" like blobs looking somewhat like a "hair ball", lol. Like i said its not terrible to get them fixed with implants but it costs as much as $12k per eye to have it done in the US and if you don't have insurance.... 

Incidences of cataracts have risen greatly in the last 20 years especially among younger people. I never looked at a laser directly: But backscatter can be bad enough over time.

Thanks jibbguy for all this important information.

@Everyone, Please take care of your eyes!!! I have a feeling that too much exposure to this spark will lead to eye damage. My eyes are still feeling kind of dry and find I need to re-focus more than before. So wear UV protective shaded glasses when looking at the spark.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 15, 2008, 04:51:06 AM
Luc,

Over a WaterFuel1978, they all seem to have an isolating transformer to protect their inverter.  Can you add an isolating transformer to you diagram?

Darren

Hi Darren, it would be better protection for your inverter if you added one. I was just demonstrating that the circuit can be very simple and you did not need an inverter to get the spark and water explosion.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: epeirce on July 15, 2008, 05:14:27 AM
hello everyone,
i have been following GoToLuc's thread from the beginning and am learning a lot and keeping very interested.

has anyone with a plasma cutter tried to add some water in the plasma? i have access to a cutter, but lack the cahones.

i think i am going to build a small motor with GoToLuc's latest schematic for my daughter's science fair next spring. i was also thinking maybe a transparent material so spectators could see (maybe behind a welding helmet) what is happening. i have access to an old motorcycle coil that has two terminals that go to the plugs and have picked up a strobe on ebay. maybe i can get help with the schematic for two spark plugs?

also, count me in as you CAD guy, Luc. i am sure we are gonna need drawings once we get to a certain point.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bondservantmark on July 15, 2008, 05:16:22 AM
gotoluc,
      Just started following this thread from the beginning.  Thanks so much for the info.  Thought I would post this since through my reading several have asked about s1r's little container.  Looks like he just posted what's inside.  Will continue with my reading.  Thank you also for keeping this thread going in the right direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucb8cJwIChY
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 15, 2008, 05:17:37 AM
@Everyone, please ignore posts by user name: bigfun from now on. He is here to ridiculize everyone. He has posted ridiculizing comments on my Youtube and I have blocked him there. If he posts here one more time I will ask Stefan to block him also.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 15, 2008, 05:46:30 AM
hello everyone,
i have been following GoToLuc's thread from the beginning and am learning a lot and keeping very interested.

has anyone with a plasma cutter tried to add some water in the plasma? i have access to a cutter, but lack the cahones.

i think i am going to build a small motor with GoToLuc's latest schematic for my daughter's science fair next spring. i was also thinking maybe a transparent material so spectators could see (maybe behind a welding helmet) what is happening. i have access to an old motorcycle coil that has two terminals that go to the plugs and have picked up a strobe on ebay. maybe i can get help with the schematic for two spark plugs?

also, count me in as you CAD guy, Luc. i am sure we are gonna need drawings once we get to a certain point.

Hi epeirce, welcome aboard ;), I'm sure when the time comes we can help you if you need assistance.  Keep updated as things are changing on a daily bases.

Thanks for your offer to help if ever we need CAD.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 15, 2008, 09:26:21 AM
@kezep
Please do not get discouraged.  There are still things to explore.  In Papp's later patent, he mentions the use of three impulse firings on the downstroke separated by 60 degrees.  I assume that means TDC then 60 degrees and finally, 120 degrees.  We are not dealing with combustion here.  Papp must have realized it that by multiple pulses, it would keep driving the piston down?  The early patent describes using deoxygenated water plus chorine besides noble gases as the "fuel".  He also used a glow plug to preheat the charge.

Go here and read the early patent #  3670494

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl

I posted a new thread regarding Papp as it relates to water as fuel here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

I got no response.  Evidently, no one wants to bother to see the relationship to the Papp engine and a water for fuel engine we are discussing.
I guess I am spitting in the wind, or everyone by now knows I am getting senile in my old age.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 15, 2008, 11:09:28 AM
Well,I finally got my parts today,tried lucs circuit,and x box hackers.Obviously something went awry,in xboxs,I got no spark at all,in lucs my inverter would trip internally anytime it was hooked to the rectifier.The inverter itself works fine,I used it on several different things,it is a 400 watt 110 volt.The rectifier is a 50 amp 1000 volt rectifier.It seems as if I have a short circuit anytime rectifier is hooked up.Anyone have ideas?Thanks in advance,I am trying to learn this.....BTW,if anyone else is in the same boat as me in electronics,here is a great learning tool.....    http://www.allaboutcircuits.com      .For the red light I am getting..the manual says....THE RED LED INDICATOR WILL TURN ON, AND THE INVERTER WILL TURN ITSELF OFF AUTOMATICALLY IF:

1) THE CONTINUOUS DRAW OF THE EQUIPMENT BEING OPERATED SHOULD EVER EXCEED 400 WATTS.

2) THE SURGE DRAW FROM THE EQUIPMENT BEING OPERATED SHOULD EVER EXCEED 800 WATTS.

3) THE CIRCUIT TEMPERATURE SHOULD EVER EXCEED 165 DEG F.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 15, 2008, 11:49:57 AM
Quote
It seems as if I have a short circuit anytime rectifier is hooked up.Anyone have ideas?

Did you use the loading current limiting resistor between the inverter and the cap?
If not, the inverter will obviously trip, at least if it is a modern one, which works with a HF switching circuit.
Cheaper ones, which still internally use a conventional 50/60Hz transformer don't have this problem, as the large inductance of the transformer will not allow fast current surges...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 15, 2008, 11:54:44 AM
No sir,I didnt see a resistor in Lucs circuit.Like I said,I am  very new to electronics,what kind of resistor would I need?Thanks alot.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 15, 2008, 12:08:17 PM
Quote
No sir,I didnt see a resistor in Lucs circuit.Like I said,I am  very new to electronics,what kind of resistor would I need?Thanks alot.

Well if you look at the first post in this thread, you will see 2 schematics. In first one you can see a resistor in between the inverter and the capacitor. In the second one you can't. But if you have a very fast reacting modern inverter, it could well be, that it will not work without limiting resistor (or a limiting coil, which would be better, for it would not waste energy)!
If you use a resistor you should limit the maximum current to the one your inverter is able to drive.
This max current is usually indicated on the inverter. Then you can calculate according to U=R*I, how big you resistor has to be. BTW: Off course, the resistor should also be able to withstand the energy it has to dissipate...

Addition: Or as a poster post to this post  ;) indicated, it could also be, that something of your parts has gone...
But I assume you already tested this...if not, then do this first!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 15, 2008, 12:14:59 PM
Thanks again,ill give it a shot.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 15, 2008, 12:15:17 PM
It seems as if I have a short circuit anytime rectifier is hooked up.Anyone have ideas?
Broken diodes or wrong polarity?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 15, 2008, 01:32:10 PM
@ whopper1967
Just place a light bulb in series anywhere between the inverter and the cap. Remember W = V*A, so a 95w bulb should pass 0.86a at 110v (if there is something I'm not accounting for here then someone please correct me). If you had two bulbs in parallel then they would both pass that much current, so you would get 1.73a. I have my bulb placed before the rectifier, and since it's AC, either leg does the same thing. You can get cheap light bulb holders from a local hardware store. They should have little screw connectors on the bottom, and you can make your connections easily with alligator clips.

I also recommend using wall current for these tests because the inverter is just not necessary unless you are ready to install something like this in a car. Just take the right precautions if you are going to do that.

I think Shanti meant to say V=I*R, voltage = current * resistance. (or I=V/R, or R=V/I).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 15, 2008, 01:54:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dROFFBsGU

Video of my experiments, 800w generator, 450v + voltage doubler.  The spark is 100% consistent and very loud, only reason it stopped is because i was unplugging it from the generator and plugging it back in again.  After 2 minutes of running the HV diodes blew, looks like i need to run more than 2 in parallel to allow the amount of current required for this.

Daniel
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 15, 2008, 03:22:22 PM
@kezep
Please do not get discouraged.  There are still things to explore.  In Papp's later patent, he mentions the use of three impulse firings on the downstroke separated by 60 degrees.  I assume that means TDC then 60 degrees and finally, 120 degrees.  We are not dealing with combustion here.  Papp must have realized it that by multiple pulses, it would keep driving the piston down?  The early patent describes using deoxygenated water plus chorine besides noble gases as the "fuel".  He also used a glow plug to preheat the charge.

Go here and read the early patent #  3670494

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl

I posted a new thread regarding Papp as it relates to water as fuel here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

I got no response.  Evidently, no one wants to bother to see the relationship to the Papp engine and a water for fuel engine we are discussing.
I guess I am spitting in the wind, or everyone by now knows I am getting senile in my old age.

Tishatang

Excellent find. What a great idea of multiple firings on the down stroke. We keep forgetting that this plasma only creates a local effect in relation to the spark plug and not combustion effect like a hydrocarbon fuel that effects the entire cylinder.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 15, 2008, 04:23:37 PM
@kezep
Please do not get discouraged.  There are still things to explore.  In Papp's later patent, he mentions the use of three impulse firings on the downstroke separated by 60 degrees.  I assume that means TDC then 60 degrees and finally, 120 degrees.  We are not dealing with combustion here.  Papp must have realized it that by multiple pulses, it would keep driving the piston down?  The early patent describes using deoxygenated water plus chorine besides noble gases as the "fuel".  He also used a glow plug to preheat the charge.

Go here and read the early patent #  3670494

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl

I posted a new thread regarding Papp as it relates to water as fuel here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

I got no response.  Evidently, no one wants to bother to see the relationship to the Papp engine and a water for fuel engine we are discussing.
I guess I am spitting in the wind, or everyone by now knows I am getting senile in my old age.

Tishatang


@everyone, please have a look at Tishatang new topic!...for those of you who are at powering the motor stage will benefit of understanding the process going on. I will try to find some test videos that I have saved somewhere and post them there.


Got to go and make money now :P I'll be back late tonight.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 15, 2008, 04:30:24 PM
Well,I finally got my parts today,tried lucs circuit,and x box hackers.Obviously something went awry,in xboxs,I got no spark at all,in lucs my inverter would trip internally anytime it was hooked to the rectifier.The inverter itself works fine,I used it on several different things,it is a 400 watt 110 volt.The rectifier is a 50 amp 1000 volt rectifier.It seems as if I have a short circuit anytime rectifier is hooked up.Anyone have ideas?Thanks in advance,I am trying to learn this.....BTW,if anyone else is in the same boat as me in electronics,here is a great learning tool.....    http://www.allaboutcircuits.com      .For the red light I am getting..the manual says....THE RED LED INDICATOR WILL TURN ON, AND THE INVERTER WILL TURN ITSELF OFF AUTOMATICALLY IF:

1) THE CONTINUOUS DRAW OF THE EQUIPMENT BEING OPERATED SHOULD EVER EXCEED 400 WATTS.

2) THE SURGE DRAW FROM THE EQUIPMENT BEING OPERATED SHOULD EVER EXCEED 800 WATTS.

3) THE CIRCUIT TEMPERATURE SHOULD EVER EXCEED 165 DEG F.



Hi whopper1967, if you are using my most current Schematic you can just plug it in the wall or use a resistive load like Shanti mentioned to smooth out the surge on the inverter when the capacitor is charged.

Luc

Added: Thanks Shanti and everyone for helping out here.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 15, 2008, 07:42:18 PM
Thanks alot folks.I will try it again tonight.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 15, 2008, 11:07:28 PM
I wrote this up yesterday as 1 of several parts to give a step by step walk through on what is happening. With the HV diode everything changes. Also, for fun on a non-related topic, check out my new youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcZEDxoZpP8
This is possible by knowing what the potentials are doing in a circuit and how they interact with each other. That applies to this plug circuit in a subtle way.

(http://www.esmhome.org/library/water-sparkplug/howthewatersparkplugworkspart1.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 16, 2008, 02:45:13 AM
Hi all,


As a newbie to all this, can someone please explain with Gotolouc's latest circuit diagram, the SPST swtitch/relay please?

(1) Is the switch replaced by high speed electronics/high speed relay if being used with an engine or is it just switched on and off just once to start the process?

(2) Is it synchronized with anything or any part of the motor revolution/ignition timing?
 
This may have been covered but if it was I wasnt able to find it, so apologies if that is the case, but once I understand a concept, I think I can add value to a discussion.

I'm just trying to understand. I have an engineering background of sorts, but always assume we never know everything and should be humble and open to learning.


Many thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 16, 2008, 06:35:25 AM
Hi all,


As a newbie to all this, can someone please explain with Gotolouc's latest circuit diagram, the SPST swtitch/relay please?

(1) Is the switch replaced by high speed electronics/high speed relay if being used with an engine or is it just switched on and off just once to start the process?

(2) Is it synchronized with anything or any part of the motor revolution/ignition timing?
 
This may have been covered but if it was I wasnt able to find it, so apologies if that is the case, but once I understand a concept, I think I can add value to a discussion.

I'm just trying to understand. I have an engineering background of sorts, but always assume we never know everything and should be humble and open to learning.


Many thanks,

Steve

Hi Steve, welcome to this topic. At this time none of us are operating a combustion engine with this circuit. What we are doing is replicating observing the effect sharing our findings and circuit improvement ideas. Some have been testing it on an engine but have not succeeded in making it work wet (that I know of). I think there maybe more for us to understand before we can get to that. Hi speed switching or timing synchronizing I don't think is an issue. We need to understand and find the way nature would use this so we can harness that power to work for us. We are not there wet as we have all been told how things work and it is very difficult to see it another way. I have hope that if we work and share together that the natural forces will conspire to assist us. Group participation and an open mind to learn is going to be the key here and I can see from what you write that you are there and here now.

Welcome aboard

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on July 16, 2008, 07:27:44 AM
Hello ,
I've just received an e-mail from S1R . He said he will make another video of the entire set up together.(working circuit)

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 16, 2008, 08:10:29 AM
Hi Luc

Thanks for the welcome.

I was looking at the circuit and it struck me I *think* the idea behind the switch is to act as a flip-flop between charging the cap when switch is in one position, then discharging into the spark plug when in other position.

Presumably a couple of decent size FETs might do the same job, but they would have to be big ones. I have seen 169 Amp ( 680 Amp pulse peak ) 55VDC rated FETs for automotive applications
( they are IRF1405 ) . Presumably you could alternate their on periods so when one FET is on and charging the cap, the other is off, then swap to discharge into spark plug.

But as were dealing with 300-400VDC, you might need larger FETs like those used for DC motor control for say trams and other large DC motors....

PS- just ordered an second hand 4 stroke pump motor to try all this on......this is the best bit.
PPS - 50 KV doesnt tickle......

Cheers

Steve


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 16, 2008, 08:18:27 AM
@plasmastudent

I hope the engine you bought has a negative chassis and therefore +ve from the coil.  Alot of small engines work with the HV current flowing in the opposite direction making it near impossible to protect the coil from the 400v power supply.

The problem i am having at the moment is the capacitors in my voltage doubler,  the caps blow if the coil isnt allowing it to discharge via the spark/plasma gap.  IF i spray too much water on the plug, it stops the firing and the capacitors blow.  I am in the process of making a way to get 400vdc+ without using capacitors.

I had thought to use a 240/480 transformer and a full wave bridge rectifier.   However these transformers are not cheap or readily available.
My second thought was to somehow modify the inverter to output higher than 240vac to begin with, for this however i have no idea.

Can anybody help me on this? Once i can sort out a safe and reliable method of supplying 400+vdc to my spark plug i can put the system into a test vehicle.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on July 16, 2008, 09:44:06 AM
Check out this clip we should look into Electric Taser circuit.
in this video clip there's a salt water explosion with Taser.

 i think it's worth a look.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm_KMMK7-XQ
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 16, 2008, 10:44:02 AM
Another way to generate HV http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Flyback (http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Flyback)
A lot of videos on Youtube as well, type ZVS Driver into the search bar.

Only experienced electronic constructors should attempt this!
High level of shock risk!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 16, 2008, 11:01:47 AM
Quote
The problem i am having at the moment is the capacitors in my voltage doubler,  the caps blow if the coil isnt allowing it to discharge via the spark/plasma gap.  IF i spray too much water on the plug, it stops the firing and the capacitors blow.  I am in the process of making a way to get 400vdc+ without using capacitors.

Well how exactly looks your circuit. Do you also have the diode array to protect the caps? For actually the additional too much water should actually short the HV and not allow it to climb into himalayan heights???
Well, the simplest way (for a short term solution) would be to add a safety spark gap. This means a spark gap parallel to your plug, but with a wider gap. So if the plug gap does not fire, due to any circumstance, the safety gap will fire and like that, the coil voltage will not be able to rise to very high (destructable) potentials.
But actually I would anyway always protect the cap with an additional device like a varistor or a transil diode...Cheap but effective...

Quote
Check out this clip we should look into Electric Taser circuit.
in this video clip there's a salt water explosion with Taser.

Well I wouldn't call this an explosion compared to the bangs we've already seen here ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 16, 2008, 01:30:52 PM
At the risk of going off topic, would this effect have any application: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_ux8nSWmAz0  I'd like to see some water thrown in there.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 16, 2008, 02:05:39 PM
Hello ,
I've just received an e-mail from S1R . He said he will make another video of the entire set up together.(working circuit)

HV

Hi Happy V,

Yesterday a friend sent me a 1991 French patent application that if it works explains exactly how the nail in the coil system works. He sent it to me for review, had nothing to do with  S1R's strange coil but IF:

First coil is the magnet field coil, second coil is the modulator, third coil picks up energy.  IF hooked up in a series regenerative system, coils the right size inductive and parasitic capacatance wise, spark generated burst RFaround 21 MHz sinewave, it would add the burst to itself in a regenerative feedback loop.  Would work......S1R is either dumb like a fox, just plain lucky, or wise way beyond how he "talks".....I go for the plain lucky right now.  A pain in the ass to be sure of as a lot of things have to fall into place.......but I'll at least give him the benifit of the doubt......

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 16, 2008, 02:27:27 PM
Hi All

Ninjadaniel - i'd have thought that it shoudl be possible to alter the output of a small motor - auto electricians converted my old English Hillman from +ve to chassis to -ver to chassis. My guess would be the change would be an easy fix, although I havent tried it.

That said - I beleive from reading all these posts it is :
(a) worth finding a design for a design for a stand alone ignition system that is compatible wth small engines that is capable of being driven by small engine magneto

(b)
(a) worth finding a design for a design for a stand alone ignition system that is compatible wth small engines that is capable of being driven by a mains supply ( initially ) then work on the modification to run off 12 volts ( i.e. inverter based ).

Another point - DO NOT OVERLOAD AN INVERTER. DO NOT MESS WITH IT UNLESS YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you push things too far, it will all end in tears and quite possibly a fire or injury.

Electrical stuff is not to be toyed with.

Cheers

Steve
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 16, 2008, 02:56:25 PM
pretty much all cars have positive HV coil, assuming the engine block is earthed (which it always is),  generators that use a motorbike sized ign coil are also positive HV.

I will just get one of those for the test.  Has anybody tried to make plasma with straight rectified AC?  does it do anything? or is 450v+ required?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 16, 2008, 05:01:55 PM
Hi Happy V,

Yesterday a friend sent me a 1991 French patent application that if it works explains exactly how the nail in the coil system works. He sent it to me for review, had nothing to do with  S1R's strange coil but IF:

First coil is the magnet field coil, second coil is the modulator, third coil picks up energy.  IF hooked up in a series regenerative system, coils the right size inductive and parasitic capacatance wise, spark generated burst RFaround 21 MHz sinewave, it would add the burst to itself in a regenerative feedback loop.  Would work......S1R is either dumb like a fox, just plain lucky, or wise way beyond how he "talks".....I go for the plain lucky right now.  A pain in the ass to be sure of as a lot of things have to fall into place.......but I'll at least give him the benifit of the doubt......

Ben

Hi Ben, a very interesting find I must say :D. Are you considering to replicate this patent or effect?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 16, 2008, 05:33:39 PM
Hi Ben, a very interesting find I must say :D. Are you considering to replicate this patent or effect?

Luc

Hi Luc,

Yes sometime today or tomorrow, sort of busy with family and friends and boat dock work project here at the condo.  Will just try it with a plug and see If I can get extra plasma with the setup..Will also monitor the current in the spark with current pickup coil and display on scope, should be fairly easy to verify, good, bad, ugly.......

With the coil sizes, frequencies look about right, worried about Perm. mag. field intensity but not totally out of the park...........Simply removing the soft iron core or removing the magnetic current should give a straight  spark.  This might be a strange but true type of device..Again, this is a WAG (wild ass guess) type of device and THEORY..IF it works, could sure be used in other ways!!!!!

Has anyone seen this(slightly off topic)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlinM1wAI5U

Caught my attention!  Be patient, you have to like LOTS of water!  I can NOT explain it either......

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 16, 2008, 06:04:35 PM
[Snip!}

Has anyone seen this(slightly off topic)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlinM1wAI5U

Caught my attention!  Be patient, you have to like LOTS of water!  I can NOT explain it either......

Ben
Impossible!! A waterwheel driving a generator which drives a water pump which drives the waterwheel???
Wonder how many watts it takes to operate that pump, quite a few I would think...
This requires its own thread... :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 16, 2008, 06:10:34 PM
Impossible!! A waterwheel driving a generator which drives a water pump which drives the waterwheel???
Wonder how many watts it takes to operate that pump, quite a few I would think...
This requires its own thread... :)

Moderator,

Maybe we could get the gentleman to join a thread here!

JDHardy54@comcast.net     From Video......

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 16, 2008, 07:01:06 PM
Hi Gang,

Did a very loose test of S1R's coil setup.  Green is 5 turn HV, Large black is 7 turn modulating coil, small red to side is pickup.
NO combinations of wiring on the black and red in the magnetic circuit caused ANY change in a normal spark from 1 Hz to 1KHz spark on the plug.  This is not to say it does not work, I just am unable to see any change in the spark or ANY change on the pickup coil on a scope....NADA.......I know it is not exact, was not looking for a "Kaboooooom", but not even a twitch on scope or in spark.....with high current in secondary coils.

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 16, 2008, 09:26:50 PM
This coil is surely generating so called RF or better radiant oscillations in low voltage flow wires. This field is a cause for water ionization and because HV spark is slowed it has a time for doing it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lasher23 on July 16, 2008, 10:16:23 PM
I don't want to post anything irrelevant, but has anyone messed with using a flyback transformer and drive circuit to produce plasma in the plug? I only ask because the plasma seems to be a necessary part of these experiments, and my flyback setup produces it consistently....at least it seems to. Let me know if this is a useless way to drive my plug.I may have missed something.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 17, 2008, 05:53:58 AM
Hi Ninjadaniel


I will be trying to do the straight rectified AC and see how we go.

One thing I have done too is put a BIG 1/8 inch ( 3mm ) earthing cable from my work bench to a steel earth stake I have driven into the ground outside my shed at home. The idea is if anything goes bang, I'm not the path of least resistance for the current, especially when you are dealing with DC. DC is nasty stuff.
Btw - I'm not lecturing, just mentioning a few safety features that others might consider.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 17, 2008, 05:57:10 AM
Hi Luc,

Here is a good tutorial I shot at Peter's shop yesterday just to get someone going on the basic circuit if they're just joining your thread here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMELbK8zDQ
It has schematics and photos. Easy circuit to isolate power supply and ignition coil.

What was the exact inspiration to make you put the diode from the cap to the HV on the ignition coil?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Park34 on July 17, 2008, 07:07:07 AM
Hi Gang,

Did a very loose test of S1R's coil setup.  Green is 5 turn HV, Large black is 7 turn modulating coil, small red to side is pickup.
NO combinations of wiring on the black and red in the magnetic circuit caused ANY change in a normal spark from 1 Hz to 1KHz spark on the plug.  This is not to say it does not work, I just am unable to see any change in the spark or ANY change on the pickup coil on a scope....NADA.......I know it is not exact, was not looking for a "Kaboooooom", but not even a twitch on scope or in spark.....with high current in secondary coils.

Ben




excellent use of a clamp if i do say so :)  just curious is that really the way itys hooked up, i am seeing allot more ends of wire with your setup 2 red 2 blue and anohter 2, with s1r i am only seeing 3. just curious

thanks

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 17, 2008, 09:54:26 AM
Hi Luc,

Yes sometime today or tomorrow, sort of busy with family and friends and boat dock work project here at the condo.  Will just try it with a plug and see If I can get extra plasma with the setup..Will also monitor the current in the spark with current pickup coil and display on scope, should be fairly easy to verify, good, bad, ugly.......

With the coil sizes, frequencies look about right, worried about Perm. mag. field intensity but not totally out of the park...........Simply removing the soft iron core or removing the magnetic current should give a straight  spark.  This might be a strange but true type of device..Again, this is a WAG (wild ass guess) type of device and THEORY..IF it works, could sure be used in other ways!!!!!

Has anyone seen this(slightly off topic)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlinM1wAI5U

Caught my attention!  Be patient, you have to like LOTS of water!  I can NOT explain it either......

Ben

Hi Ben, thanks for bringing this to our attention. I have sent him an email to invite him to look at this topic to see how we share and work together to develop. If he chooses to come we will start a new topic for him and support him.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 17, 2008, 09:59:12 AM
I don't want to post anything irrelevant, but has anyone messed with using a flyback transformer and drive circuit to produce plasma in the plug? I only ask because the plasma seems to be a necessary part of these experiments, and my flyback setup produces it consistently....at least it seems to. Let me know if this is a useless way to drive my plug.I may have missed something.

Hi lasher, please do test your flyback with this circuit or share your idea in more detail so someone can try it.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 17, 2008, 10:15:00 AM
well,i tried to create your circuit again tonight luc,still whenever the rectifier is hooked up to the inverter it trips,when i hooked it to mains circuit breaker tripped.I put the light bulb in between the inverter and rectifier as suggested.When the rectifier isnt hooked up,the inverter runs the light bulb fine,as soon as I hook up the ac to rectifier,it is done.Seems like bad rectifier maybe,what do you think?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 17, 2008, 10:23:26 AM

excellent use of a clamp if i do say so :)  just curious is that really the way itys hooked up, i am seeing allot more ends of wire with your setup 2 red 2 blue and anohter 2, with s1r i am only seeing 3. just curious

thanks



Hi Park,

It was hooked up as in the pictorial when tested, 3 coils, 6 leads before hooking up!  #2 & 3 low voltage coils are in series, here positive regenerative feedback should occur if activity in nail and phase is correct, HV coil is isolated.

To produce the circuit accurately, exact size of wires, # turns, SIZE OF NAIL/diameter, hardness of nail and coating if one, size of coil form coils were wound on and most important, INDUCTANCE of each coil and resonance frequency of at least the HV coil plus a nice current trace of the spark on a HF scope..........None of that is given, so we are all working in the dark here.....IF there is gain in the circuit, it has to be in the RF region due to size (guesstimate) of basic coils.....

Reading the Yahoo group where S1R is most active, it would appear he is getting more bazaar in his statements as time goes along concerning relays, world energy needs, confinement to US, etc,  The fine line between intuitive genius and insanity is a razor thin edge......who knows.  AND no, I am not trying to spread disinformation or doubt, just keeping it between the lines here.

That water wheel is MOST interesting, but where in the heck to get a 550 GPH Turbo Pump!!!!!  Hummmmmmmm.  Going back to bed............too damn early in the morning.......

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 17, 2008, 10:25:54 AM
Hi Luc,

Here is a good tutorial I shot at Peter's shop yesterday just to get someone going on the basic circuit if they're just joining your thread here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMELbK8zDQ
It has schematics and photos. Easy circuit to isolate power supply and ignition coil.

What was the exact inspiration to make you put the diode from the cap to the HV on the ignition coil?

Wow :D another great video and demonstrated by Peter Lindeman. Please do thank him on my behalf.

I think you are the first one to ask me about how I came to this circuit. It is not my doing!... it is God's Grace. I ask for His help and guidance to find something that could help just days before finding it. The circuit came the day after I posted a reply to S1R on his Yahoo Group. What I was trying to do is to get my inverter to short circuit at the spark plug once the HV of the coil jumped the gap. I had so many components to try to do this and at one point I noticed that the spark was strong and wondered what part of the circuit was doing this ???... so I started eliminating one thing at a time to find the cause and eventually found this simple circuit.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 17, 2008, 10:32:49 AM
well,i tried to create your circuit again tonight luc,still whenever the rectifier is hooked up to the inverter it trips,when i hooked it to mains circuit breaker tripped.I put the light bulb in between the inverter and rectifier as suggested.When the rectifier isnt hooked up,the inverter runs the light bulb fine,as soon as I hook up the ac to rectifier,it is done.Seems like bad rectifier maybe,what do you think?

Yes, that sounds like your rectifier maybe fried. Get a new one and hook it up just to the cap and nothing else and plug it in the wall. If the cap charges now you know this part of the circuit is fine. Unplug it from the wall and be very careful with the cap and use a light bulb to drain it. Now connect it to the switch and circuit and retest.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 17, 2008, 11:09:23 AM
Thanks a bunch.....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: db on July 17, 2008, 04:29:30 PM
Hi K4zep

What if you used the water from the top of an electrolysis cell that had the H and O suspended in the water?

Dave,
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 17, 2008, 05:35:16 PM
Sorry to ask this because I am sure it has been already said before:
how are switches S1 and S2 timed? Alternating or simultaneous?
Scopeshots of the cap during operation in all modes would be great to get some insight.
Thanks Peter L. for also looking into this.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 17, 2008, 05:44:40 PM
Hi K4zep

What if you used the water from the top of an electrolysis cell that had the H and O suspended in the water?

Dave,

The best thing I can tell you is build a simple motor or at least a cylinder, put a plug in it and mist with this water and see what happens!  Develop some method of measuring total volume expansion and fire away.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 17, 2008, 06:14:02 PM
Hmm,
why are you all making these ignition circuits so complicated ?
Please have a look at my
modified capacitor70 circuit and please tell me,
what you think.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5112.msg113486.html#msg113486

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 17, 2008, 06:46:03 PM
Hi everyone,

For over 8 days now (in my little free time) I have been playing with the circuit that user name: allcanadian has posted as suggestion to a more efficient way to charge the capacitor of the circuit instead of using an Inverter.

And here are my best result at this time. Please note at one point I say 120 volt input and what I mean is 120 volt is now inputting to the bulb which I should of said was the output of the circuit.

Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0etbntkxbs

I will update with a Scope shot later!  I have to go to work now, so check back in a day for that.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 18, 2008, 04:17:36 AM
@gotoluc
Excellent job, you know in all of the posts in the "tesla project" thread not one person posted so much as a picture of this circuit, let alone a well documented video. I think your dedication should be rewarded so I will explain more of the capabilities of this circuit. Consider the circuit you have built to the hand drawn one I posted a while back in this thread, Tesla Patent 568177. In the capacitor charging circuit there are diodes to prevent the potential on the capacitor from "discharging" back to the source. In this case the inductance is charged and the inductive discharge will charge the capacitor, the potential is raised and the current flow direction remains the same in both cases. The charged capacitor can then be utilized in many interesting ways, most of these ways concern the capacitor discharging back into itself through a circuit. Now consider what might happen if the diodes were removed and a load(lightbulb) placed in series with the capacitor, here we would have a series circuit consisting of 1)positive terminal of 12v battery 2)capacitor 3)lightbulb 4)inductor 5)negative terminal of 12v battery and a switch(transistor). This series circuit utilizes the "battery" a storage medium like a capacitor and the whole circuit including the battery will oscillate at a given frequency determined by L(inductor) and C(capacitor and battery). Remember power is a function of amps x volts(watts) passing a given point in a given time, but what if these "watts" passed this point more than once at the natural resonance of the circuit?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 18, 2008, 06:57:34 AM
@gotoluc
Excellent job, you know in all of the posts in the "tesla project" thread not one person posted so much as a picture of this circuit, let alone a well documented video. I think your dedication should be rewarded so I will explain more of the capabilities of this circuit. Consider the circuit you have built to the hand drawn one I posted a while back in this thread, Tesla Patent 568177. In the capacitor charging circuit there are diodes to prevent the potential on the capacitor from "discharging" back to the source. In this case the inductance is charged and the inductive discharge will charge the capacitor, the potential is raised and the current flow direction remains the same in both cases. The charged capacitor can then be utilized in many interesting ways, most of these ways concern the capacitor discharging back into itself through a circuit. Now consider what might happen if the diodes were removed and a load(lightbulb) placed in series with the capacitor, here we would have a series circuit consisting of 1)positive terminal of 12v battery 2)capacitor 3)lightbulb 4)inductor 5)negative terminal of 12v battery and a switch(transistor). This series circuit utilizes the "battery" a storage medium like a capacitor and the whole circuit including the battery will oscillate at a given frequency determined by L(inductor) and C(capacitor and battery). Remember power is a function of amps x volts(watts) passing a given point in a given time, but what if these "watts" passed this point more than once at the natural resonance of the circuit?

Thanks allcanadian for looking at the video demo.

I would love to learn how to find the natural resonance of circuits. But if you teach me please keep in mind that I have no EE background.

@ everyone, I am heading down to Toronto tomorrow (Friday) till  Monday morning, so I will have limited access to the internet.

Have a good weekend.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on July 18, 2008, 09:52:48 AM
I would love to learn how to find the natural resonance of circuits.
Heres a simple start :     http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/index.php      ...  KneeDeep  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 18, 2008, 10:44:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bWZR52DINc

New vid to show a few distinctions and to enhance the effect, WITHOUT high current pulse.
Another photoflash cap is LOW CURRENT at about 160 volts.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 18, 2008, 04:15:55 PM
I modified and updated the circuit from Capacitor70
over here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.msg113793.html#msg113793
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 19, 2008, 12:37:39 AM
Here is a picture of my basic water arc circuit that quiman posted, this bad boy makes a very loud discharge even at 3/8" gap. The capacitor is rated at 430uF@250v, rectifier is 25A@1000v, I looped the DPDT relay to selfrunning mode but the arc became unstable due to low voltage I would imagine.This is a pretty neat circuit ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on July 19, 2008, 05:02:28 AM
Check out this clip

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oDb8KqrMHRw

I think you need to remove the bridge rectifier and capacitor.

the spark looks much more stable
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 19, 2008, 06:54:53 AM
Here is a picture of my basic water arc circuit that quiman posted, this bad boy makes a very loud discharge even at 3/8" gap. The capacitor is rated at 430uF@250v, rectifier is 25A@1000v, I looped the DPDT relay to selfrunning mode but the arc became unstable due to low voltage I would imagine.This is a pretty neat circuit ;D

hi allcanadian, woo... 430uF :o, I'm sure she would be quite feisty.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 19, 2008, 11:36:25 AM
Hi All,

Please see my latest video here.

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

Or here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDU3U1gzLzc

First of all I would like to explain the purpose of my work in this thread and how I have come to this very important latest discovery. It was Luc who showed us all a very interesting and simple circuit he discovered whilst attemping to work out how SR1. could be powering an engine with only water in his videos. In my previous posts I was able to reproduce the effect of exploding pure water with an electrical circuit and verify Luc's circuit and the results. I went on to show how the basic effect could be done with little input power and also at high repetition rates comparible to that of a running engine's ignition system.

With the help of my good friend Ben, it was discovered that exploding water with electrical energy was shown to have more energy output then what was required as electrical input according to the published Graneau paper as described in my previous posts. This paper explained that the released energy was from the conversion of the molecular bond energy in liquid water. This conversion occured when liquid water came into contact with an electrical plasma and the liquid water was converted into a cool fog. No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy. This process and conversion did not dissassociate or split the atomic bonds of the H2O molecule but did split the molecular bonds that hold water in a liquid state. The energy released, although significant, is far less than if the H2O molecule was split and then the hydrogen was to be ignited.

The above mentioned circuits were based on having a charged capacitor and blocking diode/diodes connected across a spark plug. Then a HV spark from an ignition coil is also placed across the spark plug. This ignition spark ionised the air and any water in contact with the spark plug electrodes. This ionisation allowed the energy in the capacitor to be discharged and cause a strong and bright electrical plasma discharge between the spark plug electrode. The water on the electrodes, when in contact with the plasma, would explode as described in the Graneau paper. The diagrams or schematics, videos and pictures of these built and proven circuits can be found in my previous posts on this thread.

Now to my latest discovery. Whilst looking at the ionising effect of the ignition spark and how it allowed the capacitor energy to piggy back itself and jump across the spark plug gap, I wondered if it was possible and if there was another way to do this that did not required a HV ignition spark to ionise the spark plug gap. After a number of tests and trials using a fouled or blocked with water spark plug gap, I soon realised that two things were going on. I could see that the water in the clogged spark plug gap would bubble slightly and that the water itself had significant resistance such that not enough current could be discharged from the capacitor. This was because there was not much ionisation going on in the water itself. Also, on noticing the bubbles I realised that there was electrolysis or the splitting of the H2O molecule going on and that hydrogen was being released from the water that was clogging the gap. So it was then I realised that to get more current flowing in the water so as to be able to discharge the capacitor, I needed to lower the resistance of the water. I needed to get the ionisation to occur in the water itself. So this was simple, I just needed to add an electrolyte to the water so this is what I did. I added SALT to the water.

As soon as I did this and sprayed it on the spark plug gap to block it, it almost immediately bubbled away and exploded indicating it was being split. After only a few tests without any HV iginition coil or ignition spark I got it to repeatedly explode!!!! The spark plug gap is a factor and the amount of salt in the water but it all works and they are just some variable factors to the performance! The explosions are unlike anything I have experienced before. They are far more powerfull and loud and very HOT! They contained on demand genertaed hydrogen explosions!!!! Please see my videos above.

With this understanding I then was able to simplify the circuit to do this considerably. Please see the schematic below. You only need a capacitor of a few hundred uF and a bridge rectifier. You can use an inverter or the power from the wall to power it and that's all!

The power yielded is far greater than that of the cool fog explosions! These explosions are HOT hydrogen explosion and are very powerfull! The salt water is being split on demand in the spark plug gap and the capacitor discharge plasma is igniting the hydrogen. It is now my opinion that if the videos of SR1. are real indeed then this is what is occurring inside his engine which will justify the power observed as my experiments have shown that the previously described cool fog explosions could not account for the power shown in the firings of his engine. He has also verified that his engine does get hot which is not possible with the cool fog explosions of the previous circuits in this thread. It is likely that the water SR1. uses has salt or other minerals in it that he may not know of, particularly if it is from a bore. This can be enough to reduce the resistance of the water. I must also point out that it is also possible that capacitor70's motorcycle engine ran on this process as he did mention that he was using bore water to power it. Any acid or base can be used in the water to change it's PH level and lower it's resistance.

But now it becomes a requirement to be able to get alot of ionised or PH altered water to the spark plug so as to block it for this to work in an engine. Also, because the ignition circuit is not required, the cylinder's compression will be required to also condensate enough water in the spark plug gap to get it to explode. The operation will be vey similar, if not the same as a diesel engine. But many variables will have to be tested with the right combinations for a particular engine for this to work. Such as the spark plug gap, cylinder compression, type of spark plug, carburetor or water injection method, conductivity of the water and so on. But I believe that this process can be used to power an engine as it yields significantly more power than the previous cool fog water explosions that have been previously described.

There is room to be able to derive an ignition type circuit to create this same described effect and HHO explosion but use the ignition timing and even the HV spark to merely trigger the connection of the capacitor to the spark plug. This can also be done via another spark gap. But this will be explored and reported further in later experiements. Such a circuit will allow the effect and process to be used in a standard HV ignition timed engine. But it is important to understand and show that HV has NOTHING to do with the resulting explosion and output energy of this process as I have done above.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 19, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
Cool so it has been cut down to only capacitors now. Does this mean that this was a capacitance discharge all along?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 19, 2008, 12:39:55 PM
Hi All,

Concerning Ossie's latest discoveries!!!!!

Right ON..............The circles we go in to get to the truth.  It is early here, about 6:30 a.m. or so.  I'll walk down to the boat and get a bottle of salt water and try it in my low compression FOX 78 engine later this Morning!!!!!!!!!!  You might want to post how much salt you put in a gallon of water.

DAMN good work Ossie

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 19, 2008, 12:48:49 PM
Hi All,

Concerning Ossie's latest discoveries!!!!!

Right ON..............The circles we go in to get to the truth.  It is early here, about 6:30 a.m. or so.  I'll walk down to the boat and get a bottle of salt water and try it in my low compression FOX 78 engine later this Morning!!!!!!!!!!  You might want to post how much salt you put in a gallon of water.

DAMN good work Ossie

Ben

Hi Ben,

I used about 1 table spoon of cooking salt in a standard glass of water which should be 250ml.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 19, 2008, 01:29:01 PM
Cool so it has been cut down to only capacitors now. Does this mean that this was a capacitance discharge all along?

Hi Broli,

It means there are a number of processes that are required to occur in the water for it to explode. Various circuits can initiate these processes in the water but in the end, it is the water that does the work and it is the water that explodes. There are no magic circuits or processes in the applied electrical energy that are needed to make the water explode. It is standard text book electrical theory at work here.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 19, 2008, 02:38:27 PM
Ossie output verses input  new system does more ?  with same/less input ? seems that way   or am I wrong   Chet PS I know its early[testing]gut feeling ?PPS I can see S1 selling bottled water on Ebay now
Amazing  Find  congrats!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 19, 2008, 02:50:20 PM
Ossie output verses input  new system does more ?  with same/less input ? seems that way   or am I wrong   Chet PS I know its early[testing]gut feeling ?PPS I can see S1 selling bottled water on Ebay now
Amazing  Find  congrats!!!


Hi ramset,

Total efficiency won't be known for quite some time yet. So much more to do to work out all of the performance parameters of this process and understand how they relate to it's overall energy efficiency. In reality we won't have any sort of real numbers until we can get a replicable engine running that can be measured accurately. This is some time away yet. The first step towards this is of course to get an engine running using this process.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 19, 2008, 03:00:45 PM
Found this video a couple months ago. This might be similar to yer new circuit Ossie.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I

Be sure to watch the second half of the video, it really throws out a flame.

Just read thru all the comments on this vid, seems he's just using a variac, bridge rectifier and a 2200uf bank of caps. He mentions 150vdc at 4 amps, I assume this is the output at the rectifier.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 19, 2008, 03:44:41 PM
@Callanan

In the Noble Gas Engine, Papp uses water saturated with chlorine and "cooked"
for about 6 hours at around 400 volts. Then noble gases would be introduced. I
think it is a water engine in disguise. Maybe the power is the chloride being released by the spark? I am not a chemist. Try adding chlorine to the water instead of salt.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 19, 2008, 04:35:39 PM
Great work Ossie!

I think it is related to Kanzius discovery. I have no doubt from the start that it must be HF generated disruptive discharge here. Radiant energy.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 19, 2008, 04:43:00 PM
Hi Broli,

It means there are a number of processes that are required to occur in the water for it to explode. Various circuits can initiate these processes in the water but in the end, it is the water that does the work and it is the water that explodes. There are no magic circuits or processes in the applied electrical energy that are needed to make the water explode. It is standard text book electrical theory at work here.

Regards,

Ossie




Great work Ossie! After llooking at your latest schematic it struck me that this process now looks much like the research Ironhead has been doing with plasma. Here is the thread. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2058.msg25174.html#msg25174
From what we see in Ironheads design and custom 'sparkplug' the ideal temperature for the electrolyte would be above 160 degree F. Then the current required to sustain the arc should drop.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on July 19, 2008, 05:07:21 PM
Rather than using salt or chlorine or chemicals of that nature, give this a whirl.  Make a solution of colloidal copper up using simple electrolysis and distilled water and mist the colloidal copper toward the spark plug.

Go to Home Depot and get a foot of number 12 copper wire and remove the plastic coating and make your electrodes from that.  This is a high enough grade of copper to perform this experiment.  In no way are colloids of this grade of copper fit for human consumption, in other words do not drink.

IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: duff on July 19, 2008, 06:02:56 PM
Hi ramset,

Total efficiency won't be known for quite some time yet. So much more to do to work out all of the performance parameters of this process and understand how they relate to it's overall energy efficiency. In reality we won't have any sort of real numbers until we can get a replicable engine running that can be measured accurately. This is some time away yet. The first step towards this is of course to get an engine running using this process.

Regards,

Ossie


Ossie,

Nice work!

You could put a tube over the sparkplug gap and insert a slug of some nature, fire the plug and calculate the work done by the displacement of the mass?

Test Previously done by retrod: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg112633.html#msg112633 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg112633.html#msg112633)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yn0AOUnOU


-Duff
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 19, 2008, 06:15:29 PM
Hi Ossie,

I posted about this in my forum last night. This is great work!

But this quote: "No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy."

If that is from Graneu (spelling??)...he is wrong and so are a lot of explanations on his site and it doesn't matter about credentials. Academia wants to take something and force it to fit inside of their box of what they already believe.

Luc's method does cause an explosion...followed by an implosion. The H&O ARE disassociating regardless of what he wants to believe and claiming it is simply molecules separating from each other are simply ridiculous.

Take a spark plug with Luc's method and srew a thick bolt on it to create a small cavity that the spark fires in. Spray water on it. Ignite repeatedly with a piece of paper over it...at the end of each spark, the paper is sucked to the bolt. That is classic browns gas implosion following an explosion and you can see it with your own eyes if you use dark sunglasses and look at the flame really close. I see the colors and the hydrogen is igniting showing proof of h/o separation.

No significant motive power is because of the re-association of h/o causing a vacuum....that is why on these spark plug circuits, there needs to be a Meyer EEC (electron extraction circuit) from the annode of the plug back to the input with a bulb in the middle to burn off electrons that are freed during separation...then the bang will be bigger without forming a vacuum right after. ALL COLD EXPLOSION.

I still need to test the salt water spray on Luc's plug to see what happens. Circuit simplified might be nice but it isn't the same type of spark. Did you spray the salt water on the spark using Luc's method?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 19, 2008, 06:34:05 PM
Hi Ossie,

I posted about this in my forum last night. This is great work!

But this quote: "No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy."

If that is from Graneu (spelling??)...he is wrong and so are a lot of explanations on his site and it doesn't matter about credentials. Academia wants to take something and force it to fit inside of their box of what they already believe.

Luc's method does cause an explosion...followed by an implosion. The H&O ARE disassociating regardless of what he wants to believe and claiming it is simply molecules separating from each other are simply ridiculous.

Take a spark plug with Luc's method and srew a thick bolt on it to create a small cavity that the spark fires in. Spray water on it. Ignite repeatedly with a piece of paper over it...at the end of each spark, the paper is sucked to the bolt. That is classic browns gas implosion following an explosion and you can see it with your own eyes if you use dark sunglasses and look at the flame really close. I see the colors and the hydrogen is igniting showing proof of h/o separation.

No significant motive power is because of the re-association of h/o causing a vacuum....that is why on these spark plug circuits, there needs to be a Meyer EEC (electron extraction circuit) from the annode of the plug back to the input with a bulb in the middle to burn off electrons that are freed during separation...then the bang will be bigger without forming a vacuum right after. ALL COLD EXPLOSION.

I still need to test the salt water spray on Luc's plug to see what happens. Circuit simplified might be nice but it isn't the same time of spark. Did you spray the salt water on the spark using Luc's method?

Hi Qiman

Could you elaborate on the Meyer EEC circuit with a little hand drawn schematic of the return path through this EEC bulb starting at the anode (tip?) ????? or at least a detailed wiring explanation?  I am very interested in expanding the recovered electron flow effect....Can this be an efficient generator?????

Thanks

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 19, 2008, 06:44:09 PM
Maybe you could now try such experiment as this inventor shows : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV6M0ugRCbM
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 19, 2008, 06:58:09 PM
Hi Ben,

(http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/fig5.jpg)

Item 55 is a bulb that will burn off electrons freed in water bath when h/o are separated. I don't know if one inline like that will work with Luc's spark method.

I can't find an easy pic to post but take that bulb and take the right side of it to the + of the cell (annode) and the left side to the hv output of the ignition coil..that would be analogous of Meyer's method. it could be on constantly or as in one of his patents that it is on a flip flop..bulb is off during on pulse but as soon as it is off, bulb connects to pull electrons freed.

The concept is valid and sound...if it is that easy to apply to this method, I have no idea..experiment will tell and it is what deserves some attention. The water only reforms because the electrons are right there for the h/o to reassemble.

I see no reason why not to use moisture + hho from a wfc..even if low volumes, you will get a propagated explosion from that spark...that has already been demonstrated. If the EEC method is done right to the HHO and also on the HHO as it is leaving the cell in order to strip electrons from the oxygen atom, it will destabilize the oxygen further making the potential for energy release upon burn way higher. Then that electron stripped oxygen in the HHO from a cell going to Luc's spark would take the electrons freed from the gap. But simply adding HHO might make this whole concept of putting EEC to the plug system obsolete.

Any car that can simply run on anything...even at idle is turning an alternator even at low speed...the alternator windings can be tapped before the voltage regulator for serious gas production in a good cell. I have made a lot of gas in my cells at 36 watts or less with 1 single tube set! The power from an alternator before the voltage regulator is MUCH MUCH more than that! Anyway, point being HHO isn't going to be in low supply from the power the alternator puts out. HHO + Moisture + Luc's spark. Why just mess with water because the HHO is too easy to supplement to the mix.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 19, 2008, 09:02:35 PM
Hi All,

Please see my latest video here.

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

Or here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDU3U1gzLzc

First of all I would like to explain the purpose of my work in this thread and how I have come to this very important latest discovery. It was Luc who showed us all a very interesting and simple circuit he discovered whilst attemping to work out how SR1. could be powering an engine with only water in his videos. In my previous posts I was able to reproduce the effect of exploding pure water with an electrical circuit and verify Luc's circuit and the results. I went on to show how the basic effect could be done with little input power and also at high repetition rates comparible to that of a running engine's ignition system.

With the help of my good friend Ben, it was discovered that exploding water with electrical energy was shown to have more energy output then what was required as electrical input according to the published Graneau paper as described in my previous posts. This paper explained that the released energy was from the conversion of the molecular bond energy in liquid water. This conversion occured when liquid water came into contact with an electrical plasma and the liquid water was converted into a cool fog. No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy. This process and conversion did not dissassociate or split the atomic bonds of the H2O molecule but did split the molecular bonds that hold water in a liquid state. The energy released, although significant, is far less than if the H2O molecule was split and then the hydrogen was to be ignited.

The above mentioned circuits were based on having a charged capacitor and blocking diode/diodes connected across a spark plug. Then a HV spark from an ignition coil is also placed across the spark plug. This ignition spark ionised the air and any water in contact with the spark plug electrodes. This ionisation allowed the energy in the capacitor to be discharged and cause a strong and bright electrical plasma discharge between the spark plug electrode. The water on the electrodes, when in contact with the plasma, would explode as described in the Graneau paper. The diagrams or schematics, videos and pictures of these built and proven circuits can be found in my previous posts on this thread.

Now to my latest discovery. Whilst looking at the ionising effect of the ignition spark and how it allowed the capacitor energy to piggy back itself and jump across the spark plug gap, I wondered if it was possible and if there was another way to do this that did not required a HV ignition spark to ionise the spark plug gap. After a number of tests and trials using a fouled or blocked with water spark plug gap, I soon realised that two things were going on. I could see that the water in the clogged spark plug gap would bubble slightly and that the water itself had significant resistance such that not enough current could be discharged from the capacitor. This was because there was not much ionisation going on in the water itself. Also, on noticing the bubbles I realised that there was electrolysis or the splitting of the H2O molecule going on and that hydrogen was being released from the water that was clogging the gap. So it was then I realised that to get more current flowing in the water so as to be able to discharge the capacitor, I needed to lower the resistance of the water. I needed to get the ionisation to occur in the water itself. So this was simple, I just needed to add an electrolyte to the water so this is what I did. I added SALT to the water.

As soon as I did this and sprayed it on the spark plug gap to block it, it almost immediately bubbled away and exploded indicating it was being split. After only a few tests without any HV iginition coil or ignition spark I got it to repeatedly explode!!!! The spark plug gap is a factor and the amount of salt in the water but it all works and they are just some variable factors to the performance! The explosions are unlike anything I have experienced before. They are far more powerfull and loud and very HOT! They contained on demand genertaed hydrogen explosions!!!! Please see my videos above.

With this understanding I then was able to simplify the circuit to do this considerably. Please see the schematic below. You only need a capacitor of a few hundred uF and a bridge rectifier. You can use an inverter or the power from the wall to power it and that's all!

The power yielded is far greater than that of the cool fog explosions! These explosions are HOT hydrogen explosion and are very powerfull! The salt water is being split on demand in the spark plug gap and the capacitor discharge plasma is igniting the hydrogen. It is now my opinion that if the videos of SR1. are real indeed then this is what is occurring inside his engine which will justify the power observed as my experiments have shown that the previously described cool fog explosions could not account for the power shown in the firings of his engine. He has also verified that his engine does get hot which is not possible with the cool fog explosions of the previous circuits in this thread. It is likely that the water SR1. uses has salt or other minerals in it that he may not know of, particularly if it is from a bore. This can be enough to reduce the resistance of the water. I must also point out that it is also possible that capacitor70's motorcycle engine ran on this process as he did mention that he was using bore water to power it. Any acid or base can be used in the water to change it's PH level and lower it's resistance.

But now it becomes a requirement to be able to get alot of ionised or PH altered water to the spark plug so as to block it for this to work in an engine. Also, because the ignition circuit is not required, the cylinder's compression will be required to also condensate enough water in the spark plug gap to get it to explode. The operation will be vey similar, if not the same as a diesel engine. But many variables will have to be tested with the right combinations for a particular engine for this to work. Such as the spark plug gap, cylinder compression, type of spark plug, carburetor or water injection method, conductivity of the water and so on. But I believe that this process can be used to power an engine as it yields significantly more power than the previous cool fog water explosions that have been previously described.

There is room to be able to derive an ignition type circuit to create this same described effect and HHO explosion but use the ignition timing and even the HV spark to merely trigger the connection of the capacitor to the spark plug. This can also be done via another spark gap. But this will be explored and reported further in later experiements. Such a circuit will allow the effect and process to be used in a standard HV ignition timed engine. But it is important to understand and show that HV has NOTHING to do with the resulting explosion and output energy of this process as I have done above.

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie,

I am having a hard time wording this but I'll give it a try, so please don't be upset if something I write makes you feel bad since that is not my intention here. As you know, I have praised and valued all the work you have done and you have added so much great research to this topic.

Using electrolyte in the water was a direction I was purposely avoiding (not wanting to do).  Maybe you did not see the first page post where someone posted this Cold Fusion Plasma 9 Youtube video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I  which I deleted since I found it to be off topic. Now once again someone has posted it on this page.  I am not impressed by this video demonstration because of the use of electrolyte in the water. I seem to find this to be a form of brute force electrolysis.

I can be wrong and you maybe on the right track and this is what would be needed to make a combustion engine work on water but I am hoping not. How can we expect a normal ICE to last with salt going though it? isn't it going to rust like 30 times faster than just water? It may work in the Lexan engine that I'm presently building but I think I would be testing this last.

Maybe there is something I'm missing or not understanding :-\

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shanti on July 19, 2008, 09:39:46 PM
Quote
No significant motive power is because of the re-association of h/o causing a vacuum....that is why on these spark plug circuits, there needs to be a Meyer EEC (electron extraction circuit) from the annode of the plug back to the input with a bulb in the middle to burn off electrons that are freed during separation...then the bang will be bigger without forming a vacuum right after. ALL COLD EXPLOSION.

Well this is quite similar to my idea, about the non neutral Plasma.
See here : http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.msg112537.html#msg112537 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.msg112537.html#msg112537)
Well your idea, about the additional benefit of non combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen due to the charge imbalance is an additional reason, why it could really be important to have the LV discharge happen not on ground level, but on a very high positive level, which will keep sucking electrons from the water plasma even during the discharge...
You could do this similar to Stan. During the discharge you let the channel to the positive open, but block the channel of the negative a little. So that in total more electrons get sucked away than do enter in the plasma. What to do with the excess electrons, well you can either store them, and release 'em again after the discharge, or you radiate them out of the circuit as Stan did (Light Bulb). (A heated wire radiates electrons, this is actually how the old tubes worked in the basic principle...)

@LUC: I also think salt water and ICE shouldn't be combined...Well, I could be wrong, but I would estimate that salt water and its deposits will do quite some damage to the engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 19, 2008, 09:45:39 PM
Exactly Luc , exactly. We should avoid any offtopic experiments but that one looks fine to me. We should find a common denominator of all experiments to understand what is happening. I think I know what's going on but it's hard to me to believe.
We see exactly Nikola Tesla method of conversion  !
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: maxvicd on July 19, 2008, 10:20:03 PM
Hello,

that is why in case of use on an ICE this one is not grounded but is at the low voltage while the anode of the sparkplug is at the high voltage if i am right, like Tesla did to create a ball lightning.

Max ;).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: radicalzero on July 19, 2008, 11:50:07 PM
I knew that I had seen this concept before, check out this link especially the paragraph on electrohydraulic forming.

 archive.metalformingmagazine.com/1997/01/7mfjan5.htm (http://archive.metalformingmagazine.com/1997/01/7mfjan5.htm)

This is basically what we are trying to do only with a piston.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 20, 2008, 12:21:01 AM
Hi Ossie,

I am having a hard time wording this but I'll give it a try, so please don't be upset if something I write makes you feel bad since that is not my intention here. As you know, I have praised and valued all the work you have done and you have added so much great research to this topic.

Using electrolyte in the water was a direction I was purposely avoiding (not wanting to do).  Maybe you did not see the first page post where someone posted this Cold Fusion Plasma 9 Youtube video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I  which I deleted since I found it to be off topic. Now once again someone has posted it on this page.  I am not impressed by this video demonstration because of the use of electrolyte in the water. I seem to find this to be a form of brute force electrolysis.

I can be wrong and you maybe on the right track and this is what would be needed to make a combustion engine work on water but I am hoping not. How can we expect a normal ICE to last with salt going though it? isn't it going to rust like 30 times faster than just water? It may work in the Lexan engine that I'm presently building but I think I would be testing this last.

Maybe there is something I'm missing or not understanding :-\

Luc



Hi Luc,

My apologies for posting the latest results of my research which are in a direction that you do not wish this thread to go. After all, it is your thread. Please forgive my interpretation and the impression I got from your first post. The impression I got was that the priority of this thread was to replicate an engine running on water, as that shown in the videos of s1r9a9m9, using a modified ignition circuit as he did. But it seems now that your priority for this thread is to look for a source and the development of anomalous energy and non-classical operation of the initial circuit you posted in your belief that this is what may be allowing the engine in s1r9a9m's videos to run on water.

The results of my research and experiments on this topic to date indicate that the initial circuit that you posted causes a cool fog explosion of water as that described in the Graneau paper. As further described in the Graneau paper, the explosion may yield more energy output than what was required electrically to cause it. The expermental results shown indicated that in 5 out of 8 tests, the output energy exceeded the input energy to the factor of 100-160% of the input energy. My observations confirm this degree of energy conversion in my own experiments but also confirm that this small amount of energy increase CANNOT account for the energy being displayed in the firing of the engine in s1r9a9m9's videos. It is because of this understanding and the results of my research that I believe that your simple circuit cannot be used or developed as you have presented to be able to allow an engine to run on pure water.

Because it is my priority to follow the results of my research in an effort to be able to demonstrate if it is possible to run an engine on water as demonstrated by s1r9a9m9 or not, it seems that the direction of my work no longer fits into the focus of this thread as you have described. So I will do the appropriate thing, and as courtesy to you, no longer post the results of my work in this thread as it is progressing in a different direction than where you wish this thread to go. But I wish you and all on this thread well in your endevours.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 20, 2008, 12:31:43 AM
@callanan:

Just start your own thread...
My callanan Replication!!
or
URGENT! callanan WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
or
Alternative plasma spark ideas and discussion!!

 ;D ;D

I will admit...useing salt water in an engine...NOT a good idea  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 20, 2008, 12:59:36 AM
@callanan:

Just start your own thread...
My callanan Replication!!
or
URGENT! callanan WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
or
Alternative plasma spark ideas and discussion!!

 ;D ;D

I will admit...useing salt water in an engine...NOT a good idea  ;)

Hi xboxhacker,

It seems that people cannot see the wood for the trees in my latest posted discovery. People are seeing what I did and are not reading what I am saying. It is not specifically about the "salt" I put in the water but it is about why I did it and what it proves. I am simply adding an electrolyte to the water itself to increase it's conductivity. There are many different ways and additives that you can use to do this but it is "why I am doing it" and not "how I am doing it" that is important. In this direction of research, regarding increasing the conductivity of the water, it does not mean that we MUST use a very corrosive water based liquid in our engines. It is just pointing to the theory of why it may work and how water can be used. But also, considering the abundance of seawater on the planet, it would be a technological revolution indeed if an engine could be designed with non-corrosive components such that it could solely be powered by seawater. Wouldn't that in itself be an end to our dependance on oil if this was possible.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 20, 2008, 01:13:47 AM
Ozzie,

Hot air is also more conductive then cold air. I know that it may sound crazy but you can test it also with hot air from hair-dryer... That would prove what we are looking for.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 20, 2008, 01:31:31 AM
It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if engines did corrode from salt or other types of water... When it gets bad enough they can be re-built with a non-corrosive coating surface treatment; somebody would come to market with one for sure. And that still won't cost us all as much as running on gasoline does ;)   And if the engine gets less efficient over time, what does that mean any more when all you're wasting is a few more drops of water, hehehe (actually its not even wasted, as most of it can be recaptured).

And eventually new engine designs will come along that utilize the technology better than the old ICE's and Diesels did.

The engines that the Wright Flyer and the first Curtiss planes used were terrible... Lasted less than 100 hours, if that. But that's all we need to prove the technology and get it widely accepted; advancements in the free marketplace will take care of everything else after that ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 20, 2008, 01:34:00 AM
Hi Ossie,

By your research, you have just pealed the onion of S1R's Theory down to a level of more understanding and have an usable theory that can be used for "real work"...... 

S1R has always said the pure water spark/explosion seemed to be about 1/10th of what was needed. 

From the convoluted path his circuitry and development have followed, it is obvious that the theory and results he obtained on a random but non repeatable basis using impure water had a problem.   That "something" missing in the equation was hydrogen and you have clearly demonstrated this.

The use of common "Salt" water is the most brilliant concept to arrive at this point in time and on this link during the life of this thread. It allows on demand hydrogen within the cylinder with no losses external to the engine.  It allows simple and novel applications of this technology of plasma and hydrogen to fill the needs of an ever increasing power hungry world.  It is a "Kernel" of information that if creative people (and there are many on this list) will use can become a "Real" barn burner.  If we must keep it "pure", then so be it but the basic S1R concept is useless unless the total process is applied.  JUST ASK YOURSELF ONE QUESTION.  WHY DID S1R's engine get hot if he was only using the "COLD" process of the "pure" thread here..Isn't the answer right in front of you, all Ossie has shown you is the KERNEL, the basic process, not the application.  .........You must question and then follow the clues to get past "go" and win the game of monopoly........................

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 20, 2008, 01:53:14 AM
Anyone here ever worked on old outboard motors on boats that have had copius quantities of seawater run through them all of their life for cooling? I have worked on and rebuilt some that are 30 years old. They are still going strong...

Ossie

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: casman1969 on July 20, 2008, 02:30:02 AM
Hey guys...
Maybe some usefull info here?
http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/wine/energdev.htm

Carl
Title: Water Fuelled Car from Srilanka!!
Post by: dreamyear on July 20, 2008, 03:33:30 AM
Water Fuelled Car from Srilanka!!



http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g_7S48Mu_H4

According to the the young inventor, the generator he has designed is
capable of running a motor car for 80 kilometres using only one litre
of water
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 20, 2008, 03:48:39 AM
my experiments have shown that the previously described cool fog explosions could not account for the power shown in the firings of his engine.

i have been a fair weather friend to this thread I admit, but I must say I am not sure you are right about that, Stiffler said that he preformed an experiment where to measure the physical force and 'all hell broke loose'.

And putting a hole through a thick Aluminum sheet requires extraordinary force.

So while you have no doubt discovered something new and maybe better it is not neccesarily true that the cold version isn't powerful.

I am trying to figure out if qiman is right though about the electro-aetheric effects of the circuit, if he is then this could be a circuit that might be suited to the Hiddink/Gray/Baumann stuff I am working on.

Sadly he has some secret part to his forum that I can't get to or somesuch, can't even post.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 20, 2008, 03:58:43 AM
Rather than using salt or chlorine or chemicals of that nature, give this a whirl.  Make a solution of colloidal copper up using simple electrolysis and distilled water and mist the colloidal copper toward the spark plug.

Go to Home Depot and get a foot of number 12 copper wire and remove the plastic coating and make your electrodes from that.  This is a high enough grade of copper to perform this experiment.  In no way are colloids of this grade of copper fit for human consumption, in other words do not drink.

IndianaBoys

Check out: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/coherer.htm

Metal particles produce orgone especially when electroaetherically (or electromagnetically) pulsed, which produces enegized (orgone charged) electrons that can bridge gaps. (aka cold current)
May work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 20, 2008, 04:53:45 AM
BTW I'm not sure I'd say this is recommended, but connecting the negative of a 100-500v supply to either electrode (or a middle electrode) and the positive to a piece of pipe (or a coil) could create some interesting effects.


[/hijacking thread]
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 20, 2008, 05:09:00 AM
I am sure any type of electrolyte would work would it not?I use sodium hydroxide in my cell.Some use potassium hydroxide,baking soda...etc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 20, 2008, 06:18:05 AM
I made me an injector today. I drug out an old weed eater I had laying around and will be trying just the LV circuit on it in a couple days. Here are a few pics of it. I have to wait til I get to work monday to cut threads on the bottom part because I have no metric dies. I'm gonna try it in the open tomorrow and see how it works. I can't remember the size of the injector, I wanna say it's 12 gph. I pulled it off the hot rod in the garage, I was using it for water/meth injection with the supercharger. I'll be using a shurflo diaphragm pump, max pressure is 150 psi I think. Somebody tell me how to pulse the injector with the weed eater, I need a very simple and very understandable way to do this. The pump will be running continuously and I'll have a small solenoid valve hooked up just before the injector with a relay but I need a way to pulse the valve just like you would a spark plug.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/NXSLT1/100_0105.jpg)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/NXSLT1/100_0110.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 20, 2008, 06:51:19 AM
I think some are jumping the gun here a lil bit. Let's get a motor running on water first then worry about the salt corrosion. Like I said in a previous post, they make stuff to coat just about every part of an engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 20, 2008, 07:19:58 AM
Anyone here ever worked on old outboard motors on boats that have had copius quantities of seawater run through them all of their life for cooling? I have worked on and rebuilt some that are 30 years old. They are still going strong...

Ossie

Ossie, I have asked others opinion of what they think of this direction. I received some replies. Among one was from Peter Lindeman. He has pointed out that I offered this circuit to public domain and therefore I should not have any set ideas or expectation as to what or how researchers will chose to use or develop the circuit.

That is a true and an undisputable point.

So please accept my apology for reacting to the direction you are going with your research. Please do feel free to continue posting your findings as all your research and experiment have great value to this tread.

Sincerely

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 20, 2008, 08:47:03 AM
To test the power output one idea is to build a potato gun from it.
Then measure the distance the piece of potato flies with various setups.

There are many ways to make water more conductive without making it corrosive.
I like the idea of using colloidal copper, I don't think it is very corrosive.
Zinc may be another, and both are used for metal coatings.

I once read of a test engine built from ceramic material.
It was lighter and didn't suffer from corrosion.

If this technology works, future engines will be designed to deal with the corrosion,
and it will be possible to use salt water.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 20, 2008, 10:19:46 AM
I think the impact of having an engine working on salt water is much bigger than desalinated water. Being the obvious that this planet is 68% salt water. To be more balanced you can have an engine/generator that's highly protected against corrosion which uses salt water to produce highly purified water which then can be used in any engine without worry.
Title: Bad link_Water Fuelled Car from Srilanka!!
Post by: Earl on July 20, 2008, 11:23:06 AM
Water Fuelled Car from Srilanka!!

http://uk.youtube. com/watch? v=g_7S48Mu_ H4

According to the the young inventor, the generator he has designed is
capable of running a motor car for 80 kilometres using only one litre
of water

@Dreamyear

the above link does not function.  I see at least two errors in it, but even
correcting these does not help.

Did you make a local copy of the video?

Do you have the correct URL - or some keywords for searching?

Earl
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 20, 2008, 12:11:33 PM
There are 3 errors in the link.  Here's a proper one: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g_7S48Mu_H4
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 20, 2008, 12:13:46 PM
I think it's a matter of field intensity. For current circuits only salt water can hot-explode but just build a proper circuit producing more intensive field and you will see even distilled water explosion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 20, 2008, 02:32:06 PM
@srilanka video
Low amp electrolysis, hmm reminds me of something, someone :)
What for is the tank in the back of his car? For pre-made hydrogen?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on July 20, 2008, 05:36:41 PM
Hello Ossie,

what about using your schematic for an alternative ignition system? Did you test it with gasoline? The thought behind my question is it to reach a result in saving fuel like the firestorm spark plugs can do.
Would it be possible to put a drop of gasoline directly to the spark plug and turn on the maschine?

And before people screeming that it is to dangerous, I know that using a sprayer with gasoline would be dangerous, therefore I ask for a drop of it directly on the spark plug.

thanks,

atlantex

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 20, 2008, 07:32:40 PM
Hello Ossie,

what about using your schematic for an alternative ignition system? Did you test it with gasoline? The thought behind my question is it to reach a result in saving fuel like the firestorm spark plugs can do.
Would it be possible to put a drop of gasoline directly to the spark plug and turn on the maschine?

And before people screeming that it is to dangerous, I know that using a sprayer with gasoline would be dangerous, therefore I ask for a drop of it directly on the spark plug.

thanks,

atlantex

OK....i gonna be the stupid one....i put a small amount of gas on the plug and fired the plasma...WOW!!!!! it was f-ing awesome!!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 20, 2008, 07:36:04 PM
That's nice. At least we could use it to use lean gas mixture and save some bucks  :D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on July 20, 2008, 08:31:00 PM
Quote
OK....i gonna be the stupid one....i put a small amount of gas on the plug and fired the plasma...WOW!!!!! it was f-ing awesome!!!!

this sounds great, so the next thing is to create a circuit which uses the original HV impuls to trigger the plasma system.

@Ossi, is there still a grounding problem with your latest circuit (without HV coil)?


atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 20, 2008, 09:08:49 PM
@xbox hacker
Quote
OK....i gonna be the stupid one....i put a small amount of gas on the plug and fired the plasma...WOW!!!!! it was f-ing awesome!!!!
LOL, it's good to see someone take the bull by the horns and run with it ;D

@ALL
While the goal is to run on water there are alternatives, When I was 16(a very long time ago) I was running a 1600cc VW engine in a sand rail dunebuggy on 80% methanol + 1 liter octane booster. This would "cook" the engine in about 3 minutes I figured as the plugs had a "white" residue on them, think very very HOT. Most motor heads would tell you to increase the fuel to "cool" the engine as we do today but I did the opposite----I leaned it out further, and added a proportional water injection system ;).
The water vapor cooled the combustion chamber because every Kg of water added had to absorb 2257Kjoules of energy before it could flash to steam, the expansion ratio for water to steam is around 1:1000 so I got my good expansion ratio thus power without excessive heat running as lean a mixture as I wanted. There is actually a very interesting power curve here mid-throttle where decreasing fuel but not air or water results in decreased power so a gas engine can run like a diesel engine. So varying the fuel only can act as a form of speed control---a very efficient one at lean mixtures as the EGT is low.
With this explosive water arc ignition system very lean mixtures could be combusted in a consistent, reliable manner which was always the main issue I had to contend with. As well the lean mixture plus low EGT means emissions like NOX will be very low. Maybe a compromise between a pure water engine and a lean burn gas engine is an easier option for some----me for instance-- I like easy. ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 20, 2008, 09:14:29 PM
I tested the injector assembly and it didn't work so well. The injector nozzle I'm using sprays a very fine mist, what we need is a fat stream of water to immediately fill the gap in the spark plug to cause the explosion. The injector nozzle couldn't fill the gap enough due to being a fine mist. It would eventually just fill the entire thing full of water and it would just sit there and bubble like a HHO generator and every once in a while it would pop and shoot all the water out of the assembly. I used my hand sprayer with the nozzle screwed out to shoot a stream and it would fire everytime in my injector assembly. I even pulled the assembly apart and had the plug laying in the open with the injector nozzle spraying right next to the plug and it wouldn't fire, but the hand sprayer with a fat stream of water made it fire everytime. So, I've got a couple more designs in mind but again I'll have to wait til I get to work tomorrow and ummm "borrow" some stuff to make it with. One design will hopefully allow a much bigger arc IF enough power is used.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HHOwanabe on July 20, 2008, 10:08:53 PM
Luc and Ossie (and all other active contributors),
I am a newbie here and know very little about electronics or auto mechanics.  I am very excited about everyone?s work and believe in some way it is all relevant.  However, I must confess, I believe the latest most promising discovery is Ossie?s (page #25, post #962).  Luc, I am glad to read your post that accepts Ossie?s discovery/experiment as being relevant to the overall goal of getting a car (with an ICE) to run on water, and I hope Ossie will continue to be an active participant.

Now, here is how I got here.  I started out wanting to find out about Hydrogen cars which led me to all kinds web sites dedicated to ?Hydrogen on demand? and Stan Meyer?s Water Fuel Cell and new spark plug to convert water to HHO.  Then I found this site, learned about S1r9a9m9 and his experiments/successes, and have been following (all of) your progress every day.  Somewhere along the way I learned about how to use a 9v battery, two paper clips, and water to create Hydrogen and Oxygen through electrolysis (I?m 63, graduated in 1963, and never learned about that until now).  At this site, the first experiment I attempted was Ossie?s exploding water using a strobe light, engine coil, 9v battery, and non-resistor spark plug (from pg6, post #235).

Before I even started trying to build the test configuration I did the following:  I hooked the 9v battery (+) to the plug cap and the (-) to a wire wrapped around the plug base.  No spark (which was exactly what I wanted).  Next, I left the (-) hooked up to the plug and put the plug base in water. When I hooked up the (+) to the plug; Tiny BUBBLES (which again was exactly what I wanted).  NOTE here:  I ?assumed? the bubbles were Hydrogen.  You see, my assumption all along, from Stan Meyer?s and S1r?s videos/drawings/write-ups to everything I had been reading here, was that somehow the spark plug was being used (through a new separate/special circuit) to perform instantaneous electrolysis (in an ICE cylinder) then allowing the engines normal ignition cycle to ignite that hydrogen.

I do not have a strobe light and I?ve tried (in vein) with all sorts of wiring setups to just get a spark from Ossie?s exploding water experiment.  But I only get a spark when just the battery, coil, and plug are hooked up. When I add the diode string; no more spark.  No problem. I am moving beyond that now thanks to everyone?s posts here, a book on basic electronics, and an educational web site I found on one of the posts here (I?ve even learned how to use a multi-meter!).

LUC, at a very high theoretical level, I plan to create two circuits going to the same plug; 1 for LV to do electrolysis, and 1 for HV to create ignition.  I will move on from there (if I am successful) to ?simulate? an engine cylinder with piston to see if I generate any/enough energy to move the piston.  So, my question is, would you like me to create a new thread for my project, or just post my experiments/findings on this thread?  Either way works for me, but regardless, would you consider leaving this one post on this thread?  It could inspire one of your other participants to accomplish great things.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 20, 2008, 10:37:53 PM
I tested the injector assembly and it didn't work so well. The injector nozzle I'm using sprays a very fine mist, what we need is a fat stream of water to immediately fill the gap in the spark plug to cause the explosion. The injector nozzle couldn't fill the gap enough due to being a fine mist. It would eventually just fill the entire thing full of water and it would just sit there and bubble like a HHO generator and every once in a while it would pop and shoot all the water out of the assembly. I used my hand sprayer with the nozzle screwed out to shoot a stream and it would fire everytime in my injector assembly. I even pulled the assembly apart and had the plug laying in the open with the injector nozzle spraying right next to the plug and it wouldn't fire, but the hand sprayer with a fat stream of water made it fire everytime. So, I've got a couple more designs in mind but again I'll have to wait til I get to work tomorrow and ummm "borrow" some stuff to make it with. One design will hopefully allow a much bigger arc IF enough power is used.

Yet another important discovery. I think people were assuming in the beginning that the finer the water the better, looks like that's not very much the case. Thanks for the experiment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: runaway on July 21, 2008, 01:40:14 AM
Hi...

 I have been reading through the thread here so got to it and put together a plug.
The center electrode I machined from of a solid S/steel rod, which has a hole drilled down the center and a little hole cut just behind the end of the electrode end.
The cavity where the water will pool behind the electrode I built up with wax, then filled the rest of the pug with high temp cold weld goop.
After that just melted out the wax so the cavity is clear to hold water.
Well, I think this could be the right sort of plug design but I couldn't get the bang needed that would drive a piston.
The ignition coil is a bit old and tired so wouldn't surprise me if thats where the issue is, so will need to get hold of a new one.
Anyways, thought I would show where I got so far with this.

Phil......
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: epeirce on July 21, 2008, 02:05:14 AM
Quote
I even pulled the assembly apart and had the plug laying in the open with the injector nozzle spraying right next to the plug and it wouldn't fire, but the hand sprayer with a fat stream of water made it fire everytime.
@bumfuzzled
maybe a non-medical syringe needle used for glue or solder paste mounted in your spark plug housing would do the trick.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 21, 2008, 02:17:41 AM
@ runaway...
nice job runaway!  :o Will this be running @ gravity feed or under pressure?
Keep us posted.... be nice to see it on a bench test vid.
Which plasma circuit will you be running this with?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 21, 2008, 02:27:30 AM
Hi...

 I have been reading through the thread here so got to it and put together a plug.
The center electrode I machined from of a solid S/steel rod, which has a hole drilled down the center and a little hole cut just behind the end of the electrode end.
The cavity where the water will pool behind the electrode I built up with wax, then filled the rest of the pug with high temp cold weld goop.
After that just melted out the wax so the cavity is clear to hold water.
Well, I think this could be the right sort of plug design but I couldn't get the bang needed that would drive a piston.
The ignition coil is a bit old and tired so wouldn't surprise me if thats where the issue is, so will need to get hold of a new one.
Anyways, thought I would show where I got so far with this.

Phil......

Phil

nice design 

I  would not have throught  of   the  cold weld goop ....   was it JB Weld ?

I was planing on using  a  2 part ceramic ...... if  your  weld goop is  durable  enough it is a  better choice .

I would like to see  more people   try to   modify a plug like you  have done
making the  plug  part is   difficult   but it  solves  alot of problems .

Once you  get your  system working you  will be way  ahead of the pack .

The  system  that  most are working on here   at this point   has no  ability   to control  the  output  of the  motor ........ an injector  can  vary the amount  of water that comes in contact with the plasma .....
Your  design  should have execelent  control   once you   get the right injector pump worked out .   


If you  havn't  seen  my ideas for an injector plug   yet they are at
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: runaway on July 21, 2008, 02:48:35 AM
Hi,,,,

  Thanks for kind comments.
 The plug works fine and slams out a good blast.  Just not enough to drive a lawn mower engine, but it would for sure run a model engine.
I have a gut feeling the coil is a bit tired, so will be picking up a GT sports ignition coil today.
But the thing is the water is trapped perfectly in the cavity and blasts out 360degs, where the plasma can work in a 360deg area also.
Actually it is amazing at 4.4khtz the plasma seems to spin around the gap like ball bearings.

 The circuit I tried first was the original one, I think it was Luc who did that if I remember right. Sorry if I got that confused.
What I am doing now is drawing out a circuit so it will be switched with Mosfets and also control the electronic valve.
For the valve I had a diesel pump laying around and pulled out the electronic shut off solenoid. A bit of machining there yet to adapt this right.  My idea next is to pressurise a cylinder holding the water and use this to feed the plug.
The goop is a 2pack,, Permatex Cold Weld,  Hardens like steel handles 3000PSI  (item No: 14600).  Obviously its non conductive or we wouldn't get anything happening. Hehehe.

 Yes, will get some video going soon when I get this coil sorted and things tuned better.

Cheers Phil......

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 21, 2008, 02:58:33 AM
I sent an email to Aaron asking this (It is his circuit), but can anyone confirm the wiring is correct on this slightly modified version of his spark enhancing circuit please?
http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmjbj9mrjn (http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmjbj9mrjn)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 21, 2008, 03:25:48 AM

The goop is a 2pack,, Permatex Cold Weld,  Hardens like steel handles 3000PSI  (item No: 14600).  Obviously its non conductive or we wouldn't get anything happening. Hehehe.





Phil

I found a datasheet
http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/14600.pdf

it looks like there   is a problem   with oxygen

I would think that once the   plasma  forms   you   have a very oxygen rich  environment
I guess  if this  turns out  to be a problem  a " washer "  of  some  high temp non  conductive  material  on top of the  wax would   fix the problem .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 21, 2008, 05:46:25 AM
@bumfuzzled
maybe a non-medical syringe needle used for glue or solder paste mounted in your spark plug housing would do the trick.


It's got to be even smaller than that. I made a very crude nozzle today and it's just putting out too much. I did get it to fire a few times. Had the assembly sitting on a spray can top with a hole cut out in the middle for it to stick thru. Turned the lights out and pulsed the pump, it was pretty wild how it was lighting up the spray can top. It was even lifting it up off the table just a lil bit.

 I've got a small solenoid valve I'm going to put inline when I get the right fittings, this will shut off the water flow immediately and maybe not drown the plug as bad. Plus I need a pressure relief valve so I can leave the pump running all the time and just pulse the valve and set my pressure where I want it.

I had it sitting upside down earlier today and was shooting it with the hand sprayer and it would light off everytime. I held my hand about a foot above it and you can definitely feel the shockwave from it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: runaway on July 21, 2008, 07:26:45 AM
 
 Thanks Gary for the link for this cold weld.  Funny how they don't tell you on the packet about the oxygen issue, LOL,, but anyway I think it should be ok as I expect the goop to have a water boundary layer present at all times.
The other compounds I looked at had to much shrinkage upon setting so thought this could be an issue for sealing right.
Ideally we should go ceramic and if the plug goes as planned will get these made professionally, but at this stage of testing the plugs electrode shape, its not worth the expense.

 Picked up the GT ignition coil and will begin testing soon.

Phil........
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 21, 2008, 09:44:25 AM
  if the plug goes as planned will get these made professionally, but at this stage of testing the plugs electrode shape, its not worth the expense.

 Picked up the GT ignition coil and will begin testing soon.

Phil........



Phil

For the  record  I am going to  say that  I think it would be a mistake  to  rely  on the plugs being   professionally made.
There  is just to much  money being  made  by big  energy .......  Someone   that is making big bucks now   will find a way  to stop   any  company that you  hire to manufacture them . 


I would  also  like  you to think about making the   outer shell  electrically isolated
These  plugs  will be  using both  high  voltage and  high current .
If the  outer shell  is  part of the circuit   and  a mistake is  made  with the  ground  on the  S1r  design    it is very likely  that someone  will die .
If  we want   these plugs to  become widely used we have to make them as safe as possible .
It adds an extra step ......and   reduces   the  space for  the  electrodes .........but i think it is  necessary. 

gary 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 21, 2008, 10:33:40 AM

It's got to be even smaller than that. I made a very crude nozzle today and it's just putting out too much. I did get it to fire a few times. Had the assembly sitting on a spray can top with a hole cut out in the middle for it to stick thru. Turned the lights out and pulsed the pump, it was pretty wild how it was lighting up the spray can top. It was even lifting it up off the table just a lil bit.

 I've got a small solenoid valve I'm going to put inline when I get the right fittings, this will shut off the water flow immediately and maybe not drown the plug as bad. Plus I need a pressure relief valve so I can leave the pump running all the time and just pulse the valve and set my pressure where I want it.

I had it sitting upside down earlier today and was shooting it with the hand sprayer and it would light off everytime. I held my hand about a foot above it and you can definitely feel the shockwave from it.

What about making  your   firing  chamber smaller .
I was thinking  of  cutting off your plugs  ground  electrode  and  making  the  bottom  of your   firing  chamber   the electrode .

I made a  little picture

The  light blue is the actual  chamber
The  dark blue  are drilled  holes for  water  or  plasma

Ideally  the  plug should fire into a small pool of water  each   stroke .
It might  be possible to  make the  bottom of the firing  chamber  a threaded plug so the gap  can be changed

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: runaway on July 21, 2008, 11:51:00 AM
Hi Gary...

 Regarding manufacturing a run of prototypes, It is who you know and not what you know. (old saying)

Phil.....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rednael on July 21, 2008, 01:07:51 PM


No significant motive power is because of the re-association of h/o causing a vacuum....that is why on these spark plug circuits, there needs to be a Meyer EEC (electron extraction circuit) from the annode of the plug back to the input with a bulb in the middle to burn off electrons that are freed during separation...then the bang will be bigger without forming a vacuum right after. ALL COLD EXPLOSION.



This is an abstract from Meyer`s electron extraction circuit.
If you take out the electron extractor part from the Meyer circuit and combine it with the spark circuit from this thread, you would come up with this one below.
Please try it out and check if the spark burst is improved.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 21, 2008, 01:50:14 PM
Hi Gary...

 Regarding manufacturing a run of prototypes, It is who you know and not what you know. (old saying)

Phil.....


Just a word to the  wise    ( another  old saying  )

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on July 21, 2008, 02:26:57 PM
optimum spark solution

http://pesn.com/2005/11/02/9600199_Focus_Fusion/


Title: Plasma type spark plug
Post by: Libra8 on July 21, 2008, 04:56:00 PM
Ok, I just noticed this plug referenced in the spark plug for water as fuel thread. It's the Halo plug, sorry. I would delete if I could.

Hello everyone. I've been lurking for awhile and have watched most of the video's in awe. Great work everyone. I just came across this spark plug and it it very similar to the plasma plug by Mr. Krupa. It might be of use to you.

http://www.lsgbrisk.com/
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 21, 2008, 08:52:27 PM
The proper plug should have the wave guide as Meyer made I think. In other words it must have a shape of decreasing tube so the outlet is much smaller then inlet.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 21, 2008, 10:05:40 PM
The proper plug should have the wave guide as Meyer made I think. In other words it must have a shape of decreasing tube so the outlet is much smaller then inlet.

Forest 

Why do you believe that ?

My  concept  may be a little  differerent than you  are thinking .
With my plug    the water has  been hit  with  pulses  quite a few times before it reaches  the plug .

Hopefully this will " condition " the water and make  the plasma  work better .

The  final   pulse  will  be  much longer  duration  and power than the previous  pulses .

In  my  opinion    narrowing the  stream  of   water/ plasma as it leaves the plug   would not  be a good idea .

1  The   piston  will be near TDC  when it starts firing .......I really don't  want to have to replace  pistons  all the  time  because the  plasma  burns  a hole though them ............exactly like  a water torch .

2   the  plasma will  mix with the  rest of the  contents  of the cylinder  faster if it is directed  in a fan shaped   pattern   that  covers the  whole  top  of the  cylinder .   


I did  plan to have  a narrowing  of  the  passage   that the water  flows though  just before  the  final  ignition  area.
The idea for this  was to   spray  the water  into the chamber   rather than squirt it .........it  should provide   a smoother output


The  question  I have is  ........ If I hit  the  water with  enough  pulses   as it goes through  the system ....... are the bubbles  that are created by the short  plasma  bursts  HHO or steam?       If I hit  the water enough  times  ....... will the bubbles ignite  and  add  extra  heat to  the system? .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 22, 2008, 02:15:54 AM
Hi

I had a similar thought about exploding water. My gut feel says you need to basically kick the stuffing out of the water first with a strong RF field ( a pre-iginition pulse ) and then while the water is reeling
about suddenly understanding what its like to go a few rounds with mike tysn , you "knock it out" with a second pulse that finally detonates the hydroxy & oxygen.

I tried a 75 Hz Jacobs Ladder pulse system to run a 50KV car ignition coil to try and split steam and nothing worth mentioning happened. Bugger.  :(

FWIW - my guess ( as yet unproven if it works ) is the 240V AC when rectified to DC provides plenty of power to smash the water moluecules via a plasma. I'm about to build a 240 V AC ( mains power ) to DC to drive my own spark plug experiments and see how I go. From reading all the posts so far this seems worth trying.

I'm guessing two pulses per ignition ( a couple of milliseconds apart ) for every ignition stroke in a car engine might be useful.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 22, 2008, 04:07:05 AM
What about making  your   firing  chamber smaller .
I was thinking  of  cutting off your plugs  ground  electrode  and  making  the  bottom  of your   firing  chamber   the electrode .

I made a  little picture

The  light blue is the actual  chamber
The  dark blue  are drilled  holes for  water  or  plasma

Ideally  the  plug should fire into a small pool of water  each   stroke .
It might  be possible to  make the  bottom of the firing  chamber  a threaded plug so the gap  can be changed

gary

I don't believe this will work for the LV only circuit. You need to get rid of the water as soon as you inject it into the gap or it will just sit there and bubble like an HHO generator.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 22, 2008, 04:46:59 AM
Hi

I had a similar thought about exploding water. My gut feel says you need to basically kick the stuffing out of the water first with a strong RF field ( a pre-iginition pulse ) and then while the water is reeling
about suddenly understanding what its like to go a few rounds with mike tysn , you "knock it out" with a second pulse that finally detonates the hydroxy & oxygen.

I tried a 75 Hz Jacobs Ladder pulse system to run a 50KV car ignition coil to try and split steam and nothing worth mentioning happened. Bugger.  :(

FWIW - my guess ( as yet unproven if it works ) is the 240V AC when rectified to DC provides plenty of power to smash the water moluecules via a plasma. I'm about to build a 240 V AC ( mains power ) to DC to drive my own spark plug experiments and see how I go. From reading all the posts so far this seems worth trying.

I'm guessing two pulses per ignition ( a couple of milliseconds apart ) for every ignition stroke in a car engine might be useful.

 

Plasmastudent

 Can you  explain  a little more  the  circuit  you  used?
So far I am  assuming    you  drove  an aftermarket   coil  with   a 75 Hz pulse .




I  was planning  on using   Allcanadians    circuit  from the  Tesla  challenge  thread ........ If  I  can  get it  pulsing  fast enough .   

Because  of  the  size  constraints   from using  a  standard  plug  shell  the  gap in the  final   gap  will  be  relatively  small,     Circuit  will have to  be fine  tuned  so it  doesn't  have to much   voltage .   
The   gap  needs to be  triggered   by the   plasma and water  as it moves through the gap .
To  much  voltage and it  will  arc  continuously.


As far as a couple of  pulses  being enough ..... I don't plan on  counting  on that.
So far  it looks like    at least with a  cold engine  the   vapor in the   cylinder   can  condense out  very quickly ..... (  implosion )   I plan  on  being able  to   start   the  plasma   just  after  TDC  and   continuing   as long as  required to  keep  the   gasses from  going into implosion  mode .
I am thinking that  firing  15 or 20 degrees  starting   at TDC  might  be practical  with a cold engine . 
The   extended  firing  would  be like using a  choke ....  it  would not  be used  all the time .   

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 22, 2008, 05:03:02 AM
I don't believe this will work for the LV only circuit. You need to get rid of the water as soon as you inject it into the gap or it will just sit there and bubble like an HHO generator.


I agree 

This  will not work  with  just LV.   ........It  would  require a  HV  spark 
It  would  require a quick pulse .......  with plenty  of power

If it is underpowered   it  will   just  bubble  as  you  described.


I   am drawing a blank on the  guys name  ........don't have time to look it up.
This  is  what  has been  called  a cartrage shot   ...... enough   power and  the  water  will  all be vaporised or  blown  out of the   basin  within  miliseconds

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: John Urbanowski on July 22, 2008, 05:27:06 AM
I just thought of something I would like to try on this spark system we have all been working on but I dont have the correct capacitors to try but maybe someone else wants to try it in the meantime . I was thinking that the discharge seems to need to have large wires for no resistance to the plug , and maybe to be pulsed with three different size capacitors,all with separate wires ,and the capacitors not to be too large in size for i've read smaller capacitors seem to discharge excessively faster than large  ones,and maybe they all will discharge at the same time  and cause a different oscillation for each one and they might create a chord so to speak and resonate in harmony and  have a even more powerful discharge .      Thank you   , John U .
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 22, 2008, 06:39:30 AM
I sent an email to Aaron asking this (It is his circuit), but can anyone confirm the wiring is correct on this slightly modified version of his spark enhancing circuit please?
http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmjbj9mrjn (http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmjbj9mrjn)


Yes, it looks like it. I would use separate supply with variac on the booster caps that way you can control what goes into the caps. Make sure to measure voltage without circuit on so you know where cap voltage is in relation to the dial on the variac...especially if you use something like a microwave power supply to charge the caps to higher voltage.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 22, 2008, 01:24:29 PM
Here is a dangerous thought for the really adventurous ...

Imagine a tank of water (perhaps a swimming pool), with three spark plugs.  Arrange these so that they fire sequentially in three directions ...

I'm thinking perhaps a few milliseconds delay between each one, so the water gets punched North to South, East to West, and then Downwards ... the idea being to create and maintain a powerful vortex in the tank. 

Power could be extracted out with a simple turbine.  It would be very interesting to see what the COP could be ...

The vortex could function like a flywheel - and the sparks could be fired only as often as needed to maintain the vortex ... power input may be quite low ...

Maybe only two sparks would be needed - just thinking that a true vortex is more than just rotation, but maybe gravity provides enough of a downward thrust without help.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 22, 2008, 01:50:17 PM
Hey everyone here is a new video you should see.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr_xWnej-gc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E_dAh5ZRcs  <~~~this one is just for fun!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: troyd1 on July 22, 2008, 03:55:59 PM
Has anyone contemplated running the motor upside down? You could cup the spark plug port and thus get the water to stay in the arc gap. There are some other logistical issues with this, but food for thought.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ahchoooo on July 22, 2008, 05:53:21 PM
I tried the simple circuit by Luc but I can't get the HV spark when the diodes are connected to the spark plug. Only when the diodes are disconnected, do I get a strong spark. This is contrary to the result as reported by Luc. I am using a 350uF, 450V capacitor, 10 1N5408 diodes in series connected as in the diagram, a variac tuned to 110V as power source through a bridge.

I also tried using different number of diodes, from 1 to 10. I noticed that when the diodes used dropped to less than 5 or 6, the sparking will stop completely, indicating the possibility that the HV output from the coil got shorted out through the diodes.

Since I cannot remove the resistor from the spark plug, I also tried with carbon rods (extracted from battery), copper rods, metal screws etc as the spark gap. I noticed that with the diodes disconnected, the spark generated is quite strong and sometimes the color is very white and bright. However, the effect is not consistent. Since I was manually charging the capacitor, and then discharging the capacitor by touching a wire to the capacitor terminals, the spark generated from touching the capacitor is also quite bright, often brighter than the spark at the spark gap.

I am curious as to why I cannot duplicate the result of Luc.  :'(
Any help is appreciated.

James
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on July 22, 2008, 06:18:40 PM
Hi all. Well I finally did it. I constructed the design from Luc's first design and works great. This is using just the SPDT switch, and the spark is really bright. I put a piece of paper between the electrodes and the fired. The paper shows a bit of black and a small hole in it, this was done using no water. I am using a non resister type plug. When using a bit of water I don't really see of hear a difference in the spark. What I did observe was that, inside the base of the electrode, that a clear type of gel had formed. Also that sometimes when I didn't get the BIG spark, I could see what appeared to be water bubbling, but the plug was not even warm. I wonder what was happening? I am just learning about electronics with the help I find on some very good web sites. This is really exciting and has made me learn more :D
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 22, 2008, 07:38:49 PM
One possible problem I see with the circuit setup is the HV is connected directly from the coil
to the spark plug, so some of the LV is dissipated across the HV coil.
This would cause a lot of loss of power from the LV circuit. 

I would place a small spark gap in series with the HV terminal just after it leaves the coil, which won't let LV enter the coil.

From what I understand the HV is only providing an ion trail for the LV to discharge across the water in the spark gap.
(Just like the HV does with a Xenon Strob Tube)
And the Lower Voltage High Current capacitor discharge does the work of producing the explosive power.

So we want to keep as much of the LV as we can, but loosing a little HV in the second spark gap won't make much difference.
This is a very simple modification to test.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: petersone on July 22, 2008, 10:14:11 PM
Hi Troyd1
I suggested that a few posts back,but got no responce,spose.they didn't think much of that,also to fit the plug on the horizontal,they are a lot of those engines about,then put a cup over the end of the plug,leaving a hole in the top of the cup to put the water in.
happy hunting
peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 23, 2008, 02:20:28 AM
Plasmastudent

 Can you  explain  a little more  the  circuit  you  used?
So far I am  assuming    you  drove  an aftermarket   coil  with   a 75 Hz pulse .




I  was planning  on using   Allcanadians    circuit  from the  Tesla  challenge  thread ........ If  I  can  get it  pulsing  fast enough .   

Because  of  the  size  constraints   from using  a  standard  plug  shell  the  gap in the  final   gap  will  be  relatively  small,     Circuit  will have to  be fine  tuned  so it  doesn't  have to much   voltage .   
The   gap  needs to be  triggered   by the   plasma and water  as it moves through the gap .
To  much  voltage and it  will  arc  continuously.


As far as a couple of  pulses  being enough ..... I don't plan on  counting  on that.
So far  it looks like    at least with a  cold engine  the   vapor in the   cylinder   can  condense out  very quickly ..... (  implosion )   I plan  on  being able  to   start   the  plasma   just  after  TDC  and   continuing   as long as  required to  keep  the   gasses from  going into implosion  mode .
I am thinking that  firing  15 or 20 degrees  starting   at TDC  might  be practical  with a cold engine . 
The   extended  firing  would  be like using a  choke ....  it  would not  be used  all the time .   

gary


Hi Gary ( Resonanceman ),

I went to local electronics shop that sold kits, built a jacobs ladder kit that drove a 12V car ignition coil at 75 Hz and produced a pulsed 50KV 75 Hz output.

I also had another thought about how to handle multiple pulses of power to the spark plug. Assume at this stage for my thoughts below we are using 240 V  AC mains power. we could use an inverter but for the moment lets use the mains ( its easier for experimentation purposes and its on tap ).

Thought 1 -

Since AC becomes 0 Volts then 240V 50 times per second during the 50 cycles/second, we might be able to use this as a 50 Hz pulse to the plug gap. I havent tried it ( yet ) but its cheaper than heavy duty triacs etc. Downside is you need to limit current ( use light globes or resistor ) and its sensetive to any stray capacitances or inductances. But you get a 50Hz pulse to the plug while its switched on.

Thought 2 -

Use rectified DC. Buy a heavy duty 400 V 10-20 Amp MOSFET of similar size used for trams and trains. Trams use PWM for speed control, and do switch pretty hefty currents at high voltage, so these components exist. Downside may be cost ( havent priced these yet )

Thought 3 -

Same as 1 but use a triac to switch the voltage on at 90 dgrees ( max amplitude ) on the sine wave. This would give you 2 pulses/cycle that could then be controlled or even create DC pulses if you want to get fancy. If you also wanted to do it, you copuld use this to produce a stepping sine wave if you had access to 3 phase AC power and could shift the phases using caps. This is a less likely option given the complexity. A carefully configured PWM setup could be also used similar to this.

Hoping to have some results back soo for everyone. Might even do a first youtube if I get good results :-)

Cheers & beers

Steve
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ahchoooo on July 23, 2008, 05:48:20 AM
I tried the simple circuit by Luc but I can't get the HV spark when the diodes are connected to the spark plug. Only when the diodes are disconnected, do I get a strong spark. This is contrary to the result as reported by Luc. I am using a 350uF, 450V capacitor, 10 1N5408 diodes in series connected as in the diagram, a variac tuned to 110V as power source through a bridge.

I also tried using different number of diodes, from 1 to 10. I noticed that when the diodes used dropped to less than 5 or 6, the sparking will stop completely, indicating the possibility that the HV output from the coil got shorted out through the diodes.

Since I cannot remove the resistor from the spark plug, I also tried with carbon rods (extracted from battery), copper rods, metal screws etc as the spark gap. I noticed that with the diodes disconnected, the spark generated is quite strong and sometimes the color is very white and bright. However, the effect is not consistent. Since I was manually charging the capacitor, and then discharging the capacitor by touching a wire to the capacitor terminals, the spark generated from touching the capacitor is also quite bright, often brighter than the spark at the spark gap.

I am curious as to why I cannot duplicate the result of Luc.  :'(
Any help is appreciated.

James


Upon further testing, and checking the simple Luc wiring, it is now clear to me that the diodes allow the capacitor charge to bleed through the ignition coil. Since I was manually switching between charging the capacitor and firing the coil, the time it took allowed charges to bleed through the coil. So I have to change to auto switching by using some solid state relays, so that the switching will be a lot faster. Only then can I test to see if the diodes perform any function.

BTW, the resistance of my spark plug is 3.6K. I tried but the top cannot be screwed off. So I will have to find another plug.

Another thing I noticed is that it seems the spark is a bit stronger if the polarity of the spark plug is reversed, ie +ve ground. Also, increasing the spark gap on the plug produces a stronger spark also.

James
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 23, 2008, 05:55:23 AM
Finally got the injector assembly working right tonight. Had to make another crude injector nozzle but it works. I also had to take the washer off the spark plug to get it lined up better with the nozzle too. I have a very small solenoid valve operating the nozzle that I was pulsing with an old distributor I had laying around and it sounded like a lil machine gun going off. I've only got a 100uf cap, I need more. Everytime I try the 4200uf cap it melts the tip of my plug. lol Might pick some more up tomorrow. I turned it upside down and place a steel ball bearing over the hole and fired it and it jumped up maybe an inch. Still not enough power to run a motor but I'm not thru yet!! As fast as this is exploding somebody with some electronic circuit building knowledge could get this thing to fire two or three times on the combustion stroke and that might help.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 23, 2008, 07:33:11 AM
Bumfuzzled

Heres an idea - use a small valve to suit 1/4 inch tubing for garden drip irrigation as a way of throttling the output of your solenoid. That way you can fine tune the volume without having to mess about with injector duty cycle etc. Also you could bleed off some of the pressure ( via a branch pipe ) before it gets to the injector nozzle so your solenoid doesnt cavitate with limited pressure, that way pressure on both sides of the solenoid is the same, but bleeding pressure via  branch-off pipe will control what goes through the injector. Hope this makes sense.....its a bit like a turbo blow off valve.....

Also, try buying a few 400 uF caps and try different combinations. The problem is the optimal charge/discharge times will have to be tuned to the number of pulses need to actually get it to work.

Heres a test - buy some 1-2inch diameter copper pipe say 6 inches long. Seal off one end with a flat plate & tapa thread for the spark plug into it. Screw in the spark plug. Tap another hole for the water injector nozzle ( have the nozzle pointing directly at the spark plug ) and mount in a vice. Get some PVC sandwich wrap ( Glad etc ) and use this to wrap a ball of toilet tissue and stuff it in the pipe so it stops 1 inch from the injector/sparkplug. It should form a resonably good airtight-ish seal but will be harmless if it hits something when the water goes bang. This ball will give you some back pressure and will simulate ( sort of ) the compression in a cylinder and is cheap to do.

Hope this might be useful.

Cheers & beers

Steve
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 23, 2008, 07:56:19 AM
Steve

I have been thinking  alot about  how to   regulate the power .

For my  plan to work I  have to  be able to  control  the power on at least 3 levels
The 3 levels  are pump  choke  and  final burn .   another  level or  2 could be added if  it was found that   a higher  percentage of  bubbles was helpful  in the final burn

The  Eagle  Research  website  has a  booklet  describing  a  capacitive transformer .
In  short  a  capacitor  will   transfer  a given  amount of power on each cycle  ........
If  a second   capacitor   is  put in  series   the   voltage  will  depend on the  capacitance of  each  capacitor .

For  a multi cylinder   engine   I  would have one  main  capacitor  set ...... The  first  capacitor  would be a large  variable  cap ........ the  second  would be  the  same capacitance  as the  variable  cap  at  full  power .   

The   second  cap  would   be connected to   full wave  bridges  at each   plug .   On each plug  there would also  be  a  capacitor large enough to smooth  out the pulses .   

The nice thing  about this .......it feeds  all the plugs .    If  a plug hasn't  fired    it simply  doesn't  draw more  charge .
I haven't  decided  on how to  protect the  LV from the HV yet  ......  I would  like to  avoid  diodes  if I can .



 This  video      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr_xWnej-gc
Cap 70 underwater .   
From  how  much  water  the spark  moved I  would say that  we  probably need  1/4  to  1/2   of that spark  for  full  power  ......... (  for  pumping ) 

The   choke  would  be a second  set  of capacitors and an accumular that  would be  added to the  circuit  when needed . 
In other  words when  the choke is engaged  you would be using 2 pumps and an accumulator




For the  final  burn I was thinking  of using the   Allcanadian circuit  (Tesla challenge )          I havn't  tested it yet ........but I am thinking that  varying   the  input voltage should  make a big  change in the output pulse .


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 23, 2008, 08:03:50 AM
Hi

I found a thyristor that appears to handle 1200 Volts and 32 Amps.

http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0a35/0900766b80a35a6b.pdf

This could be used to produce DC pulses using
(a) a straight AC voltage input , or,
(b) as the main switching transistor for a PWM circuit, or,
(c) the output driver for a basic 555 based oscillator circuit.

Cheers & beers,

Steve
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 23, 2008, 08:13:52 AM
Hi Gary,

The pumping you are talking about reminds me of the increasing amplitude pulse train that Meyers had in his patent/s.

Alternatively, if you vary the pulse length, you vary the energy in it. So a short 120 V DC pulse will have less energy that a pulse twice as long but same voltage.

So a PWM circuit could be adapted to produce :
a 1 ms pulse,
then 1 ms later,
a 2 ms pulse,
then 1 ms later,
a 4 ms pulse.

All at the same DC voltage.

This just a different way of how Meyer used a bunch of pulses of the same length, but each pulse was higher that the previous one in the pulse train ( 4 pulses I think, and these pulse trains were repeated over and over ).

With electricity, to work out the enegry in a pulse, you integrate the shape and width of the pulse to determine the energy contained in the pulse. Meyer had same pulse width, but varied the amplitude of the pulses in the pulse train, gradually increasing each successive pulse's amplitude over the length of each pulse train.

But I'm suggesting using the same pulse height ( as were using a constant DC voltage )  but make the width gradually longer over the pulse train. With a greater length pulse, we will have greater energy delivered to the spark plug with greatest energy in the last pulse.

So in effect, we should in theory , have a PWM based Meyer pulse train.

Cheers & beers,

Steve

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aar on July 23, 2008, 12:08:45 PM
AbbaRue said....
"I would place a small spark gap in series with the HV terminal just after it leaves the coil, which won't let LV enter the coil."

Good point & it seems that S1r probably had this too even if he did not realize it as it there is likely to have been this gap between the rotor arm & the plug terminals in the distributor.

plasmastudent7 said...
"So a PWM circuit could be adapted to produce :
a 1 ms pulse,
then 1 ms later,
a 2 ms pulse,
then 1 ms later,
a 4 ms pulse."

I have been in favor of multiple pulses myself. Your suggestion would be easy to implement using a cheap standard logic counter/divider chip & logic gates on the output to pick off what pulses you want.

Thanks to all those who have contributed positively to this thread.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 23, 2008, 05:00:37 PM
Hi Gary,

The pumping you are talking about reminds me of the increasing amplitude pulse train that Meyers had in his patent/s.

Alternatively, if you vary the pulse length, you vary the energy in it. So a short 120 V DC pulse will have less energy that a pulse twice as long but same voltage.

So a PWM circuit could be adapted to produce :
a 1 ms pulse,
then 1 ms later,
a 2 ms pulse,
then 1 ms later,
a 4 ms pulse.

All at the same DC voltage.

This just a different way of how Meyer used a bunch of pulses of the same length, but each pulse was higher that the previous one in the pulse train ( 4 pulses I think, and these pulse trains were repeated over and over ).

With electricity, to work out the enegry in a pulse, you integrate the shape and width of the pulse to determine the energy contained in the pulse. Meyer had same pulse width, but varied the amplitude of the pulses in the pulse train, gradually increasing each successive pulse's amplitude over the length of each pulse train.

But I'm suggesting using the same pulse height ( as were using a constant DC voltage )  but make the width gradually longer over the pulse train. With a greater length pulse, we will have greater energy delivered to the spark plug with greatest energy in the last pulse.

So in effect, we should in theory , have a PWM based Meyer pulse train.

Cheers & beers,

Steve



Steve

I  thought  about  using  a PMW  for quite a while .
The  fact that the  speed, witdth and  voltage can all be varied   is a big plus.

One  big drawback  for PMWs  is  they  arn't  somethning that  you can  already get at any Walmart  or parts  store .




One thing  I really like about  my design  is  how  simple  it is  getting .
So  far  the  only  stuff  going into the control  box   are  a  throttle   cable  ( connected to the variable  caps ) the  power  for the inverter  and   a wire the  choke



I do think  a PMW based   unit  has as much  chance  of working .
The main  reason  I   chose the  stuff I am  using is because it is  easy for me to "  see "

My thinking process is  mostly visual .
In effect I  run mental   simulations .

Simulate  then simplify

Simulate then simplify

Simulate then simplify .

I  have  already  built  many dozens of  variations  in my mind  .   
I    try to watch all the  details   including   things like how  it can be built .

Once  I can  no longer  find  flaws in   it ........and it  is as simple  as I can  make it ........THEN I start to build .

My    experience  is  mostly with mechanical  systems .
Electronics  is not my thing.
I can  visulize  a transistor  working ..........but   visualizing  a whole complex circuit  working  is beyond me at this point . 
 

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 23, 2008, 05:09:39 PM
Hi Troyd1
I suggested that a few posts back,but got no responce,spose.they didn't think much of that,also to fit the plug on the horizontal,they are a lot of those engines about,then put a cup over the end of the plug,leaving a hole in the top of the cup to put the water in.
happy hunting
peter

In  short the problem  with running  a conventional  engine upside down  is OIL .
Where would  the oil go in an upside down engine ?
The  fixes  for the problems  created by turring   it  upside down   are possible  to fix ...........but it  would probably be easier  to  start  from  scratch 

If you  want to go   half way .........an  avation  engine  or old   flat  VW  engine  might have some possibilities

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 23, 2008, 05:42:34 PM
New video today of plasma & marble interaction. I used a different spark plug with a narrower gap so I could observe the pulse force a little closer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_y3MH9-jc

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dmoney on July 23, 2008, 06:03:52 PM
This is several videos showing waters power exploding.  Blows several things apart in earlier videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiRqrQC7DJ8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiRqrQC7DJ8&feature=related)

Darren
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mikestocks2006 on July 23, 2008, 06:16:05 PM
New video today of plasma & marble interaction. I used a different spark plug with a narrower gap so I could observe the pulse force a little closer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_y3MH9-jc

RD
Hi retrod,
Also @ Dmoney and others with similar setups:
Can you adapt a long clear tube vertical filled with water over the sparkplug? Fill the tube with water and see how high the water will rise with the spark/explosion?

It's a cheap and quick way to measure approximately how much work energy you can get out of the spark with water as the exploding/expanding medium.
If the weight of the water column x the rise is greater than the energy used for the spark, then it would be the answer to a water engine.

Nice work all
Thanks

ps: for water vapor test, a more elaborate setup would be needed, e.g. a piston with good seals, a known weight on the other end, etc.

Edit to add:
On the water column calculation above, and to be more precise, the cross section area of the tube (ID) times the rise times one atmosphere_pressure needs to be added.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Camion on July 23, 2008, 07:25:15 PM
Has anyone tried using a nebulizer to create a water mist?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 23, 2008, 07:33:43 PM
I just wanted to add that a HV microwave type diode placed in series with the HV lead
would work even better, because it would have a lot less loss. (about 8 volts loss).
Just place it in series at the terminal as it leaves the coil.
You might want to use 2 HV diodes just to be sure it can handle the voltage.
The spark gap is the cheapest way to go if you don't have the diodes.

I do believe the LV should be prevented from entering the HV coil.
Not only is power being wasted but it is setting up a magnetic field in the HV coil as well.

ps. Unless the LV entering the coil is setting up a needed field for this to work,
so experiments are needed to see what works better. 
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dmoney on July 23, 2008, 09:30:54 PM
@k4zep / Ben

The video I posted earlier made me think......maybe you need more water.  When he had a little water the bottle did not move, but with more water it explodes.  I believe that is because of displacement.

Darren
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 24, 2008, 01:41:44 AM
Hi all,

Gary , the general idea is say 4 pulses in a group each increasing in power ( height ) as the pulse train progresses. We can rig up some fancy electronics but someone will do that, if you have mechiancial knowledge then thats very welcome here.

One thought - 4 sprak plugs per cylinder ( they could be small ). The idea behind this is increasing the contact with the water to guarantee a big burn. Onviously this means increasing the electrical grunt to run them but thats easy to do. My thought are that water needs one helluva boot to get it moving and gassiefied, so I figure maybe 2 plugs give it the initial boot, then the 3rd & 4th give it the firing shot.

I'm hoping to do a basic proof of concept test for a single plug soon, and the quad plug idea later. The plugs dont have to be fancy at all - as long as they can carry current and 400V DC voltage.

Just a thought.

Cheers & beers,

Steve.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 24, 2008, 04:42:48 AM
Hi retrod,
Also @ Dmoney and others with similar setups:
Can you adapt a long clear tube vertical filled with water over the sparkplug? Fill the tube with water and see how high the water will rise with the spark/explosion?

It's a cheap and quick way to measure approximately how much work energy you can get out of the spark with water as the exploding/expanding medium.

A piece of wadding (eg. cotton wool or something more dense) on top of the water might provide an easier way to mark the height that it rises, as it looks to be too quick for the eye.  I think the experiments so far in moving something don't really do it justice, as the energy either isn't contained, or is in a container so big as to be able to accomodate the explosion.  It looks like a rapid expansion and collapse.  A smaller container or a more full container would likely show a very different outcome.  Ideally something like a hydraulic ram and a torque wrench would show it in its best light.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 24, 2008, 06:34:31 AM
Hi all,

Gary , the general idea is say 4 pulses in a group each increasing in power ( height ) as the pulse train progresses. We can rig up some fancy electronics but someone will do that, if you have mechiancial knowledge then thats very welcome here.

One thought - 4 sprak plugs per cylinder ( they could be small ). The idea behind this is increasing the contact with the water to guarantee a big burn. Onviously this means increasing the electrical grunt to run them but thats easy to do. My thought are that water needs one helluva boot to get it moving and gassiefied, so I figure maybe 2 plugs give it the initial boot, then the 3rd & 4th give it the firing shot.

I'm hoping to do a basic proof of concept test for a single plug soon, and the quad plug idea later. The plugs dont have to be fancy at all - as long as they can carry current and 400V DC voltage.

Just a thought.

Cheers & beers,

Steve.

Steve

I  don't think  increasing   power  with  each pulse   will help  very much.

In my opinion  plasma is plasma  .........when  plasma  contacts water   the  water   is  broken down .
The question is .........how do we make the most plasma  with the  least  input power?
One  way may  be  resonance
Another may  be  RE
Another  may  be  AC or  pulsed DC
I am thinking  that   the  plasma    probably  is created  very quickly ........but  when the power is  cut  takes  a certain  amount of time for the  heat to disperse .
If the LV  was  talored  to build up  the heat  then  cut  off  just until the plasma  is about  to dissipate we should  be able to  get  more  bang for the buck .


I think  that  it is  just  a matter of getting  enough  plasma  into  the cylinder 
More spark plugs might be a good  way to do that ...... bigger  gaps  on the plugs would help too .

gary 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 24, 2008, 08:08:21 AM
Made a lil video of things I've been experimenting with. Check it out you might even get a laugh out of it at the very end. lol.Believe me when I say the video does not do it justice. I was wearing ear plugs it was so loud and I still have a headache. It's very late and I'm tired, I'll comment on it more tomorrow.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zcjioyPM598

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ahchoooo on July 24, 2008, 08:28:15 AM
OK, I used a SPDT relay to control the switching in Luc's simple circuit, and now I can have the diodes connected without the bleeding effect. However, I cannot see any noticeable difference on the sparks between diode or no diode. It could be due to the fact that my spark plug has a 3.6K ohm resistance, which I cannot remove. Spraying the plug with water does make a difference in the spark. Has anyone tried to disconnect the diodes to see if it makes any difference? Was it because of the internal resistance that there is no difference in my sparks?

Was the phenomenon due to the theory that the HV creates a plasma first, followed by a LV flow of current from the capacitor burning the water? If that is the case, wouldn't a larger capacitor would have worked better? (I am currently using a 350uF, 450V.) How does the RE theory fit into all this?

Is Luc still on this thread? Or has he left? Who is now moderating?

James

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 24, 2008, 08:57:49 AM
@bumfuzzle
that is hilarious,and very impressive......you definately gave me a laugh today,I can just picture it.....one question..what did your plug look like after all that,was anything left of it?Oh,btw,which version of the circuit are you using....thanks...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 24, 2008, 11:06:46 AM
@bumfuzzle

Water or electrolyte? If water please try electrolyte.

Rgds.

D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dmoney on July 24, 2008, 06:02:43 PM
@ahchoooo

Maybe you could use something else instead of a spark plug for your spark gap.  Maybe two bolts or screws.  This would get rid of the resistor and prove your circuit.

Darren
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 24, 2008, 10:43:18 PM
I'm using the LV only circuit with an injector nozzle shooting water into the gap. I used baking soda as an electrolyte, never could get it to fire with just water. The first 2 segments were of a "spark plug" that I just threw together. I wanted to see if I could open the gap up any, no can do. After about 4 hits from the big cap I'd have to move the electrode in again because it's basically blasting the end of it away, it's just a piece of 1/8" copper tubing for one side and my injector nozle for the other. With the plug in my injector assembly I can only get one shot with the big cap because it pretty much destroys the ground strap on the plug. I got some tungsten rod from work today and will be modifying the assembly and doing away with the spark plug, hopefully I'll get that done tonight. Then I wanna try it on a weedeater by saturday, I really believe it'll run/idle with the big cap because it's a herendous explosion. I need to pick up some smaller caps so I can see exactly what it takes just to make it idle. Not sure but I think the problem with that big cap would be the charge time on it, can it keep up enough to actually run a motor??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 25, 2008, 01:21:02 AM
Hi Bumfuzzled,


HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I laughed to so hard I cried.......   ;D   Did your Ma get a burn? Hope shes OK.

Sorrry to mention this, *grin* , but all I could think of was one expisode of Jackass where they dragged a live gator into the kitchen for their mum to find........now THAT was very funny.....no harm done ......gator in the kitchen, $400, her reaction........priceless  :-)

Ok - back to the post.

Great research. I am starting to think a quick series of pulses per firing stroke for an engine looks more likely to produce a prolonged burn by in effect producing a long HOT pulse to create in effect a constant plasma ( i.e. stretched over 4 pulses ......pulse-pulse-pulse-pulse ) . I have seen the Meyer patent which shows pulse trains, so I wonder if we could have say 4 caps each on its own relay, and fire each cap in sequence to produce a pulse trian.

I think the 4 smaller pulses in sequence makes sense, as using a big cap might have a slightly longer pulse, but ultimately will just melt things. My thinking is that 4 smaller caps ( maybe 200 uF each ? ) fired one after the other in sequence by control electronics would likely create a long plasma but ( hopefully ) not melt the tip of the plug - because each of the 4 caps is smaller in size. I am starting to think that the key may be getting a constant electrical "burn" into the water, but with enough energy to do this, but not too much else the plug tip melts. Hmm...the art of balance......

SR19.... used in effect a high speed electro-mechanical pulse generator ( an electromechanical oscillator - which is two 12 volt car relays flip-flopping back and forth at speed, which makes a buzzing sound when it does this ) which I am now starting to think generates the pulse train to the plug. I am thinking relays are used *because* they can handle the high current and are cheap, where as power electronics may not be up to it. Hopefully someone may try this and let us know their results.

Thoughts?

Cheers & beers,

Steve.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 25, 2008, 01:36:40 AM
Hi Bumfuzzled,


HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I laughed to so hard I cried.......   ;D   Did your Ma get a burn? Hope shes OK.

Sorrry to mention this, *grin* , but all I could think of was one expisode of Jackass where they dragged a live gator into the kitchen for their mum to find........now THAT was very funny.....no harm done ......gator in the kitchen, $400, her reaction........priceless  :-)

Ok - back to the post.

Great research. I am starting to think a quick series of pulses per firing stroke for an engine looks more likely to produce a prolonged burn by in effect producing a long HOT pulse to create in effect a constant plasma ( i.e. stretched over 4 pulses ......pulse-pulse-pulse-pulse ) . I have seen the Meyer patent which shows pulse trains, so I wonder if we could have say 4 caps each on its own relay, and fire each cap in sequence to produce a pulse trian.

I think the 4 smaller pulses in sequence makes sense, as using a big cap might have a slightly longer pulse, but ultimately will just melt things. My thinking is that 4 smaller caps ( maybe 200 uF each ? ) fired one after the other in sequence by control electronics would likely create a long plasma but ( hopefully ) not melt the tip of the plug - because each of the 4 caps is smaller in size. I am starting to think that the key may be getting a constant electrical "burn" into the water, but with enough energy to do this, but not too much else the plug tip melts. Hmm...the art of balance......

SR19.... used in effect a high speed electro-mechanical pulse generator ( an electromechanical oscillator - which is two 12 volt car relays flip-flopping back and forth at speed, which makes a buzzing sound when it does this ) which I am now starting to think generates the pulse train to the plug. I am thinking relays are used *because* they can handle the high current and are cheap, where as power electronics may not be up to it. Hopefully someone may try this and let us know their results.

Thoughts?

Cheers & beers,

Steve.



No, mama is just fine. She came downstairs to see what all the noise was about, she wasn't expecting the lights to be turned out and really wasn't expecting that loud bang. I'm tellin' ya it's very loud and my two young nephews were really getting a kick out of it.  ;D I do all my building/experimenting at my parent's house because that's where everything is, the lathe, mill, power supply with variac etc.

Somebody else will have to build the pulse electronics because I wouldn't know where to start, but I will say with the smaller cap and my lil injector assembly it will fire as fast as I can pulse the solenoid for the nozzle, but a 200uf isn't gonna be much of a bang.

I'm headed over there now to modify the injector, hopefully the tungsten can withstand a lil more abuse.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: winner on July 25, 2008, 02:49:07 AM
Has anyone tried using a nebulizer to create a water mist?

Camion, I've seen reports from at least two experimenters that mist ignition did not have an impact on the pressure from these water explosions. It seems a mist is not going to add explosive power, that some larger mass of water is better for this effect. As a mere observer at this point, I cannot say much more. It may be though that mist ignition may provide OU otherwise.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 25, 2008, 06:28:34 AM
Hi All,

I found this on the S1r9....forum here :
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.0.html

As SR1 described it I think its like this :

(1) The 110V DC is designed to create a strong magnetic field using the spark plug - this I think may be the "softening up" required to be done to the water molecule.

Interstingly on the Papp motor ( which appears to be a water motor heavily disguised ) , there are coils around the water feed pipe which I think may do the same "softening up". This should polarise or at least start to break down the water by putting it under magnetic stress.

But also, as the 110V DC is removed, the magnetic field collapses from the spark plug inside the engine cylinder, and this magnetic field collapse may produce a strong EMF ( voltage ) that may stress water vapor already in the engine cyclinder and may provide a rapid step up in the stress on the water in the cyclinder of the engine, at that moment.

Thinking about this a bit more, it appears this might be a two stage pulse stress on the water, *possibly* similar to the like the "pulse train" Meyer showed in his patent and shows on his drawings.

(2) The 110V DC is applied all the time  to the spark plug - except  at the exact moments the ignition coil is firing through the spark plug. SR1 cleverly uses the distributor to send a pulse to his relays to open and close them at the required times to achieve this.

The 8 relays in the box that SR1 uses appears to be nothing more than one relay per cylinder for his V8 engine. 

Each relay ( one per cyclinder ) is connected to the distributor to disconnect the 110V DC from each plug just before the spark fires through the spark plug and then reconnects immediately afterward to re-establish the magnetic field through the spark plug again.

According to SR1, it seems that the 110V DC is *not* what burns the water, rather the ignition spark does - but his circuits appear to have the coil current up to 10 Amps, which at 50 KV is quite a boot.

Intersting point -

If I understand GotoLucs circuit correctly, what SR1 is saying is slightly different to what GotoLuc is doing. GotoLuc uses a cap to pulse the spark plug, *but* doesnt have the 110V DC applied to the spark plug just before the spark fires and so no magnetic field is present before the capacitor fires.


FYI - the text from the above URL:  ( http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.0.html )


"Super God

Did you know that s1r9a9m9 started posting again on the waterfuel1978 forum!

This is what he posted yesterday:

The relay I used has two sets of coils and resisters in them. The
same thing can be made by blocking the currents from the plug wire
from going into the inverter and blocking the current from the
inverter going to the plug wire, but leaving an open loop for both
at the plug by grounding the inverter at the plug base and no where
else on the vehicle.

The inverter has a constant current going to the plug except when
the distrubitor sends fire through the plug wire. The inverter needs
to be blocked only for the time it takes the plug to fire from the
distrubitor, and the same for the distrubitor blocked from the
inverter.

What goes on with the plug tip? well the inverter sends a current
to the tip where there is water , the plug tip now has a magnetic
field around it when the plug is fired from the distrubitor the
field is incressed and the extra amps causes a arc to form in the
clyender that expands the water as like a lighting bolt would. You
can expand water but you cant compress it. Yes if to much water is
in the cylender it will lock the engine. Thats why the timeing is
set after TDC .

Gas will not burn, gas vapor will burn. A carberator is designed
to vaporize gas as it inters the intake manifold under a vacummn.
Water will become partly vaporized and the rest is used to incress
the compression in the clyender. A fuel injecter sprays a mist of
fluid not vapor. It will partly vaporize in the clyender before the
plug fires. That is why cars with carbs and cars with injecters have
defferent time even for the same size engines. There is a few
degrees defferents in them.

The relays I used did not have any numbers or names or any marking
on them at all. The parts I found that would work cost $600.00(US)
for each clyender, and I was ask not to give out that info becaused
of what they were used for. Home Land Secuirty Issue's. I dont
ask , I dont tell. Plus how many people would spend their rent
money for the parts. None of this can be patented and sold.

I hope this will help others finish their projects."

Thoughts and ideas welcome!


Cheers & beers,

Steve

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 25, 2008, 07:05:35 AM
pretty amazing.... helps to get your head around what we are
trying to do here.
Internal Video of a running engine (slow mo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGZp_QZuZA
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 25, 2008, 08:15:51 AM

Is Luc still on this thread? Or has he left? Who is now moderating?

James

Hi everyone, I am still here but like I said a few times before, I am very busy with a home renovation project at this time. It is now 2am and this is the only time I have to quickly look through the tread. The home renovation project will end at the end of next week. Them I will have all my time once again to continue the development and building of my clear Lexan engine.

Keep up the good work everyone.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on July 25, 2008, 09:05:09 AM
cina water jet plasma

http://www.hustneti.com/indexe.htm

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on July 25, 2008, 11:16:14 AM
Here you go guys, a complete research paper with all your hard work on the water spark plug, Aaron, PL, ossie's and many more.This is like a digest so you wont have to goto through many forums posts, it can be periodically updated, just send me the stuff.

Goto the panaceauniversity: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/  Over unity research papers ->Ganga Shakti -Water Spark plug research (PDF)


Ash
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magneto_DC on July 25, 2008, 01:09:37 PM


According to SR1, it seems that the 110V DC is *not* what burns the water, rather the ignition spark does - but his circuits appear to have the coil current up to 10 Amps, which at 50 KV is quite a boot.




Hello plasmastudent,

what exactly do you mean?
s1r had a connection from each distributer point to the 8 relay (and to ground) to open exactly only when firing.
But how did it fire? From the same point on dissi with a seperate wire to centre electrode of each spark plug?
So, he got a parallel circuit after each dissi point? (HV-coils in relays?)
Or in series dissi point to relay coils to spark plug centre?
(Or two dissis? Guess, NO.)

Where are the 10A, 50kV?

Thanks

magneto_DC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 25, 2008, 02:08:06 PM
Why not take a step back and reexamine the Graneau papers?

Ashtweth just posted very valuable information on the panacea website, thanks!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 25, 2008, 04:22:00 PM
@ Ash
Well done man! Thanks for your time, dedication and skills to organize/develop/distribute such a document!
@ Luc / Stephan
Suggest a download of this .pdf is created with an overunity download link for it at the front end of this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Rocr on July 26, 2008, 03:33:23 AM
.

Has anyone tried using a nebulizer to create a water mist?

I was just doing a drive by lurk and thought of the same thing except mabe using an ultrasonic water fogger

http://crafters2000.stores.yahoo.net/ulfog.html

that may give you the finest mist for the buck..  I was looking at them for a gasoline vapor carb idea ?

maybe take it apart and rig it in a pvc tube container with a cap cut as a venturi for intake control to experiment with ... ?

Good luck guys



.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2008, 06:53:26 AM
Here you go guys, a complete research paper with all your hard work on the water spark plug, Aaron, PL, ossie's and many more.This is like a digest so you wont have to goto through many forums posts, it can be periodically updated, just send me the stuff.

Goto the panaceauniversity: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/  Over unity research papers ->Ganga Shakti -Water Spark plug research (PDF)


Ash

Hi Ashtweth, thank you so much mate for taking the time to make this great pdf document.

May your hard work reward you and everyone. If we all would do this kind of selfless service we would be much more advanced then we are.

To everyone. I have added a link to the pdf file at the first page of this topic and here it is also: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf

The effort you put in will be what you receive.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on July 26, 2008, 07:27:11 AM
Wow thanks for the kind words guys :) I must commend you guys tho, i just want the world to appreciate all the open source engineers hard work, thats why the non profit org is dedicated to yo guys exclusively  ;). We built this too in homage to you guys ill add it in as soon as i get the time.

Keep up the great work guys, the world needs you!,

Sincerely
Ash
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 26, 2008, 09:38:15 AM

Hello plasmastudent,

what exactly do you mean?
s1r had a connection from each distributer point to the 8 relay (and to ground) to open exactly only when firing.
But how did it fire? From the same point on dissi with a seperate wire to centre electrode of each spark plug?
So, he got a parallel circuit after each dissi point? (HV-coils in relays?)
Or in series dissi point to relay coils to spark plug centre?
(Or two dissis? Guess, NO.)

Where are the 10A, 50kV?

Thanks

magneto_DC

Hi Magneto_DC

The way an ignition coil fires is by disconnecting its power. Because the power has been flowing through the coil , it establishes a strong magetic field in the ignition coil. When the points open, th epower flow to the primary coil is interupted, but the magnetic field resists this by creating a high voltage in the secondary coil to try and resetablish the power flow. At this point, the secondary voltage ( about 50,000 Volts ) is harnessed and sent to the spark plug by the distributor.

You could piggy back off the power flowing through the distributor such that when the power supply was interupted by the points opening ( an at this moment the spark plug is fired by the ignition coil ), the 8 relays attached to the 110V DC to the plugs would also open because the points opened ( no power flowing to all of the 8 relays ) and no 110 V DC would flow to the plug.

Sorry if its a bit convoluted ....going out for dinner  :-)

Cheers & beers

Steve     
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2008, 07:10:15 PM
Hi everyone,

I would like to share video's of a replicator who had a great idea to use a smoke glass to show the spark size on video. He also has tested to see if gasoline will react differently in the next video. Also in the last video (just posted) he demonstrates a circuit design by Overunity user: capacitor70 and shows the power between gas and water.

Luc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eSlS3f7gn0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWBcA6TC0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foytvHDYgEg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on July 27, 2008, 03:26:19 AM
Back round on Aarons Gray tube added, new vids added any more let me know guys.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on July 27, 2008, 07:43:22 AM
.... in the last video (just posted) he demonstrates a circuit design by Overunity user: capacitor70 and shows the power between gas and water.
Luc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foytvHDYgEg
Very interesting and promising indeed ! .. KneeDeep
Title: how the water spark plug circuit and Gray Tube works
Post by: qiman on July 27, 2008, 08:13:16 AM

Hi everyone,

Here is how the water sparkplug circuit and Gray tube works. Some here assume when I compared the Gray tube to the water spark plug circuit by Luc that a spark gap is a spark gap...it is not...please read so you can see really what is going on...in my opinion and I do have experiments to back my beliefs.

----------

The HV from the coil moves through the HV diode to the + of the low voltage source to ground back to itself...it seeks ground through the diode. That diode is open. When the HV is off, take a volt meter and put the neg on ground and + on the hv diode cathode/output. You will see that you can measure the low voltage side's voltage potential on the output of the diode because the diode is open.

Many people think the diode is automatically closed and won't let the hv through but that isn't true. That is the whole point that diodes have reverse ratings...and if the diodes were automatically always shut, then the low voltage from the annode/input could never get through.

Also, the diode closing is not instantaneous...it is fast, yes, but not instantaneous...once the hv moves through the hv diode...it takes a bit of time for it to get the reverse current through it in order to slam shut.

The HV potential, which is the voltage gas (it is a gas composed of "particles" smaller than a hydrogen atom - smaller than an electron - very, very small fractional charges - Mendeleev's original periodic table of elements showed some of this) has MOMENTUM.

As it is moving, the HV diode slams shut and the voltage potential with its momentum slams against the diode...compressing it more and more...now that re-compressed potential...which is expanded 90 degrees from the wire has to go somewhere...the only path to ground as of now is the gap on the plug. That un-condensed/expanded potential is what causes the primary effect of the cold plasma.

Then, when voltage on the cathode/output of the HV diode drops below the annode/input of the HV diode, then and only then can LV source move out of it and over the gap.

The lv source is not the cause of the effect, it simply can boost the primary effect - which can be had all by itself with one small cap that is virtually empty when discharged to the primary.

Primary effect is that potential slamming against a diode.

Many think the simple hv spark jumping a gap is enough to ionize the gap to reduce the resistance enough to have the lv source follow it...that is simply a fairytale.

Only the recompressed potential against the diode's abrupt shut off can cause the cold plasma ionization that is necessary to allow the lv source to follow. At this circuit's scale of operation, this is all necessary to make these effects.

This is a method of "splitting the positive" that Bedini has shown for years in the open but nobody really got it. If I am wrong, I apologize and will correct all my explanations but until then, that's my story and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong but following the logic of all this, it is very consistent with what Tesla explained, it is consistent with other technologies that utilize this concept, etc...

Working of the Gray Tube

This will put what I'm saying into context with something that many people have studied but I am not sure anyone gets it. Many are convinced in all the free electron concepts in the Gray Tube, etc... McGratten mailed me a package about 7 years ago with that explanation but I always saw it happening in a different way.

The Gray Tube has a low voltage rod and high voltage rod. Low voltage rod has a diode on it that has the cathode/emitter pointed towards the gap. Low voltage source can be any low voltage source and Gray showed he used a 12v battery...the neg of that battery is connected to the neg of the HV capacitor at 3000-4000 volts and a few uf's. The + of the hv source goes to the hv rod.

(-)12vdc(+)diode->(gap)(+)3000vdc(-)

I have made the Gray tube analogy to the spark method and most have automatically thought that they look at 2 gaps and think they serve the same purpose. I'll show you why the 2 gaps have nothing to do with each other but why they are making the same effect. It is necessary to actually understand how the Gray tube works in order to see what the real analogies to the spark plug circuit are.

When the low voltage side is connected by commutator, whatever...the hv source immediately sees path to ground...it sees that the diode is open and has conductivity to the low voltage source which has conductivity to ground which is its own ground...it jumps and as soon as it moves through the diode for a small unit of time, the diode slams shut....only a small fraction of the hv potential made it through.

That hv potential from the cap slams against the diode and compresses against it very strongly forcing it to explode 90 degrees from the wire outwards...the only other path to ground it by going to the grids...through the electromagnet that pulses a magnet or other electromagnet to provide motive force on a motor to a + on another low voltage source and that lv source has a - that winds up being connected back to the hv -'s.

Take a balloon and push it flat against a wall. It compresses and the contents of the balloon wind up exploding 90 degrees perpendicular to the direction of original propagation.

------------

The gap in the Gray tube is simply a mechanism to get the HV to jump into a diode with a lv potential sitting on it so that it can move into it to have the diode slam shut to compress the potential against it.

The secondary discharge from ignition coil is a mechanism to get a HV to jump into a diode with a lv potential sitting on it so that it can move into it to have the diode slam shut to compress the potential against it.

-------------

The Grids on the Gray Tube are the secondary path for the expanded potential to move to ground.

The ground on the spark plug is the secondary path for the expanded potential to move to ground.

-------------

Here is what this method is:

You are giving the HV 2 paths to travel in order for it to move back to its own ground or relative ground.

1 path is a high resistance path
1 path is a low resistance path

---------------

The Gray tube high resistance path is out to grids back to ground.

The water sparkplug circuit's high resistance paths is over spark gap back to ground.

--------------

The Gray tube low resistance path is through the diode to lv side back to ground.

The water sparkplug circuit's low resistance path is through the diode to lv side back to ground.

---------------

1. The HV will choose the low resistance path FIRST
2. Diode slams shut expanding that potential
3. Expanded potential (electro-radiant event) has only the high resistance path left back to ground.

--------------

So when it is explained that the hv spark jumps the gap ionizing it to reduce the resistance of it and have the lv source follow it...is incorrect.

And seeing the analogy in comparision to the Gray tube, that popular explanation of how Luc's spark method works would be the same as claiming that this is how the Gray tube works:

The hv from the hv cap first jumps to the grids ionizing the air to reduce the resistance of it enough for the 12v battery potential to jump from the low voltage rod to the grids...all the while never needing the hv to jump the gap in order to slam against the diode.

We know the above is NOT how the Gray tube works but that is what people are claiming when they say the Spark plug circuit works by the hv simply going to jump over the gap to ionize it for the lv source to follow.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 28, 2008, 03:02:20 PM
Erfinder thankyou also   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gazzzwp on July 28, 2008, 03:14:44 PM
New Circuit.

I was trying to create the radiant effect but using solid state switching instead of a relay charging a capacitor.

The circuit is shown below.  Some people should recognise the electronics part as it is a replication of Dave Lawtons D14 circuit.  The microwave oven transformer was necessary in order to achieve isolation between the HV and the electronics. Driving the ignition coil directly with the Field Effect Transistor (FET) simply destroyed the 100 ohm resistors.

With the AC switched off, the circuit produces a clean spark which can be varied in intensity and speed by using the potentiometers. 

With the AC switched on there is no discernable difference with the spark which I have to say dissapointed me.  I was expecting to see the radiant effect.  I even tried disconnecting two of the bridge rectifier diodes, suspecting that the spark was being dampened by a circuit through the diodes.  This made the bridge half wave instead of full wave, and the effective  DC voltage was reduced from 95 Vdc to about 30 Vdc.   Sadly, still no radiant effect. 

I suspect therefore that the radiant effect is due to the capacitor discharge.  I say this because apart from the higher frequency switching, that is the only difference between my circuit and the others.  If this is true then sadly I feel that it limits the usefulness of the radiant effect.

Any suggestions/ideas welcome.

Gazza

Gazza
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 28, 2008, 07:21:30 PM
Your microwave diodes should be in series with the positive HV terminal right as it leaves
the coil, to keep the LV from shorting across the HV end of the coil.
Place them right between the HV out of the coil and were the pos.110v connects.
That should give you a better spark.
You have them in series with the LV lines. 
The 1N4007's are to keep the HV out of the LV end so you don't need them there.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gazzzwp on July 28, 2008, 08:24:32 PM
I understand your logic AbbaRue.  The 1N4007's get damaged without the microwave diodes to protect them.

I only have 2 microwave diodes, as they are too expensive to purchase.

I did try the microwave diode on the HV output as you suggested and still no radiant effect.

Please copy/modify/post my circuit if you can see any other useful proposals.

Gazza
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: multiuser on July 28, 2008, 08:55:25 PM
hi

i have replicate the curcit at the first site....

at first, without diodes ist was a "normal" spark, after, with ~10 diodes in series was nothing... no spark...
but after trying x times, there was a SUPER BOOOOOM... 20 times a very very strong an very loud spark...

but now... it is death again?! why?

why doesn't it function once and then again?
and anyway, which has it with the diodes in series up itself, since it is actually a short-circuit?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQx68BiNc4
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=YOTUniF7K54
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on July 29, 2008, 03:14:04 AM
Hi All,

I've stumbled upon this thread last week and can't stop thinking about it. I'm set to get the parts for the circuit but have a few questions:

1. I'll be getting a new inverter (solid state) and I understand these are not as tolerant of circuit spikes. What measures can take to protect it. Is that what the light bulbs are for?
2. How fast does it take to charge the cap. Once I understand what's happening, I'll try it in my grass trimmer engine. I'm thinking of bypassing the magneto and pulsing the circuit from a cam on the output shaft. The speed will be limited by how fast the cap can charge.

Thanks,

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2008, 03:43:48 AM
Thank you qiman (aka as Aaron of the Energetic Forum) for taking the time to post your understanding of the mechanics involve in the circuit at the Overunity Forum..

I must say that you have an excellent understanding and a great explanation.

@everyone,  understand this simple principle one could apply it in other circuits or use it in many configurations.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 29, 2008, 05:02:17 AM
Hi All,

I've stumbled upon this thread last week and can't stop thinking about it. I'm set to get the parts for the circuit but have a few questions:

1. I'll be getting a new inverter (solid state) and I understand these are not as tolerant of circuit spikes. What measures can take to protect it. Is that what the light bulbs are for?
2. How fast does it take to charge the cap. Once I understand what's happening, I'll try it in my grass trimmer engine. I'm thinking of bypassing the magneto and pulsing the circuit from a cam on the output shaft. The speed will be limited by how fast the cap can charge.

Thanks,

Dave

Which circuit are you gonna be building? The HV/LV circuit or the low voltage only? Use a separate battery just for the inverter, nothing else. It will blow it up immediately if not sooner. I wasted 3 like this.

Don't really know why you wanna bypass the magneto tho. I'm using the LV only circuit and am using a transistor circuit with the primary wire on the magneto to pulse my solenoid valve that supplies water to the injector. I'm in the process of redesigning the injector because it's shooting way too much water, you only need enough to fill the spark gap.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: adamhy on July 29, 2008, 05:27:22 AM
hi

i have replicate the curcit at the first site....

at first, without diodes ist was a "normal" spark, after, with ~10 diodes in series was nothing... no spark...
but after trying x times, there was a SUPER BOOOOOM... 20 times a very very strong an very loud spark...

but now... it is death again?! why?

why doesn't it function once and then again?
and anyway, which has it with the diodes in series up itself, since it is actually a short-circuit?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQx68BiNc4
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=YOTUniF7K54

Which circuit did you replicate as I saw a capcitor bank in you video and two ignition coils?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2008, 05:39:31 AM
hi

i have replicate the curcit at the first site....

at first, without diodes ist was a "normal" spark, after, with ~10 diodes in series was nothing... no spark...
but after trying x times, there was a SUPER BOOOOOM... 20 times a very very strong an very loud spark...

but now... it is death again?! why?

why doesn't it function once and then again?
and anyway, which has it with the diodes in series up itself, since it is actually a short-circuit?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQx68BiNc4
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=YOTUniF7K54

Holly :o smokes multiuser, are you charging that cap bank to 300 volts? how many uf do you have there?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2008, 05:49:48 AM
Hi All,

I've stumbled upon this thread last week and can't stop thinking about it. I'm set to get the parts for the circuit but have a few questions:

1. I'll be getting a new inverter (solid state) and I understand these are not as tolerant of circuit spikes. What measures can take to protect it. Is that what the light bulbs are for?
2. How fast does it take to charge the cap. Once I understand what's happening, I'll try it in my grass trimmer engine. I'm thinking of bypassing the magneto and pulsing the circuit from a cam on the output shaft. The speed will be limited by how fast the cap can charge.

Thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave, welcome :D aboard.  I would suggest to not use the inverter to start. Many have fried them during testing. Just do as I did in my updated video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE  and plug in the full wave bridge rectifier in the wall to start your testing. Once everything is working well if you want to test with the inverter then use a 60 watt light bulb in series on one side of the inverter to protect it from overload.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 29, 2008, 07:17:43 AM
@Gazza
I'm a little confused by your circuit. 
You have a microwave transformer between the timing circuit and the ignition coil.
A microwave transformer steps up the voltage about 18x while stepping down the amperage,
which means you are putting over 200 volts into the 12 volt side of the ignition coil.
You need a high current low voltage for the coil for it to work right.
200 volts will be stepped up so high that the HV output will short across the windings inside the coil.
12v to 12,000v  means 200V are stepped up to 200,000V.


You left out one key part in Dave's circuit, he has a diode connected across the LV input of the coil.
This diode removes the back emf spike caused by the coil.
That is probably what is blowing your resistors.
Check it out:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/D14.pdf
You see the 1N4007 just above the MOSFET  across the input of the coil? 

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: multiuser on July 29, 2008, 09:31:12 AM
@gotoluc, adamhy

yes, i have about 300 to 330 volts and 2 ignition coils in parallel.
the capcitor bank is about 2980 ?F. 8 capcitors (450V) parallel, because i have no other...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gazzzwp on July 29, 2008, 09:37:48 AM
Hi AbbaRue

Forgot to mention that I re-wound the microwave transformer because it was faulty when I acquired it.

It is more like 2:1 step up.

I think people need to be a little cautious before running away to install circuits on their engines.

The reason I say this is that the only circuits I have seen that produce he radiant effect utilise a large electrolytic capacitor.  The problem with this is that large value capacitors are not suitable for higher frequencies because of their charge/discharge times.  The circuit needs to operate well into the range of 50-100 Hz to be useful in an engine. 
(3000 rpm = 50 Hz).

My findings so far indicate that the effect does not work at these frequencies.  I have only so far seen videos where the circuit is switched by a relay at say 1-2 Hz.

The principle needs to be developed a lot more and we need to find a way to replicate it without a large capacitor.  Hence the reason for trying my circuit.

Gazza
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 29, 2008, 01:29:16 PM
Hi there everyone!  Newbie here.  Fascinating stuff this.  Everyone is so enthusiastic about replicating here...wow!

I'm wondering what the real basic idea is...maybe I've gotten lost in reading so many posts about details of circuits and far-out terms I don't know like "radiant energy" and all that.

Can anyone sort of explain what the basic hope is on this?  Am I correct in thinking that the "promise" of all this "work" is that, eventually, someone will demonstrate that they can extract more thermal energy from water than they use in electrical energy to extract it?  Or is it something else?  I confess I'm classically trained in physics and engineering, so I naturally drift toward wanting to know what the goals and basic operating theories and all that boring stuff are about before I set out to physically experiment.

I appreciate anyone's input on a basic science level to help a befuddled but curious old engineer understand what is so exciting about this particular area of endeavor.  It sure seems like there's a lot of replication being attempted and that's great.  Is there some "measure of success or failure" that one might use to evaluate:

a) whether a given setup is reproducing the desired effect
b) a quantitative, objective standard method by which one might determine energy input vs. energy output?
c) what exactly are the perceived effects and results that appear to be "classical physics" anomalies

Sorry if these kinds of questions come off as "skeptical", but scientific research and advancement depends on this kind of "harsh light of day" analysis and straightforward simple questions.  I want to understand what I'm looking for before I start searching  :)

dopey

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 29, 2008, 04:13:35 PM
Hi,
Is anyone having success with a submerged plug? If so what modifications to the circuit were made.
Thanks. I am building a test bed to measure variables.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 29, 2008, 04:29:32 PM
Hi,
Is anyone having success with a submerged plug? If so what modifications to the circuit were made.
Thanks. I am building a test bed to measure variables.

I had a little success....here is a vid on youtube

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr_xWnej-gc

It is Cap70's coil design.... ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 29, 2008, 04:38:28 PM
Dopey check post *1088    Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 29, 2008, 05:50:51 PM
Dopey check post *1088    Chet

Yes...Post 1088 is a perfect example.  It goes on at great length about a complicated theory of something or other and uses a large number of non-traditional terms (diodes slamming shut and compressing things... ::)) and vague gibberish trying to explain something that the writer obviously does not understand.  Nowhere does it answer any of the basic simple practical questions I've asked.

What is the whole contraption intended to do?  Does it do it?  How well, in objective, measurable terms?  Does it do anything that normal, standard physics cannot explain on first principles?  If so, what?

Without solid answers to those questions being sought and discussed, the tendency is toward a ring-around-the-rosy parade of endless meaningless gibberish explanations that don't even warrant being called theories.  I'm sure it's fun to pretend and play, but will it get anyone any closer to providing answers to real-world energy problems...that is the question.  I have no opinion as yet, other than to say that what I've read on the thread so far does not address any of the basic scientific issues or questions.

Have I missed something?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 29, 2008, 06:10:19 PM
...Thanks Xbox, musta missed that one. Tried with electrolyte, more volume and or pressurized air yet? 
Our circuit won't be ready till tomorrow, I am working on something that I'll publish (when it's finished) but I'd sure like to see the results of my questions.
Thanks
D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 29, 2008, 06:13:50 PM
...Thanks Xbox, musta missed that one. Tried with electrolyte, more volume and or pressurized air yet? 
Our circuit won't be ready till tomorrow, I am working on something that I'll publish (when it's finished) but I'd sure like to see the results of my questions.
Thanks
D
I didnt think to try it with electrolyte....but it sounds like fun!!! ;D

I am making a pressure tube now.....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 29, 2008, 06:20:56 PM
What is the whole contraption intended to do?  Does it do it?  How well, in objective, measurable terms?  Does it do anything that normal, standard physics cannot explain on first principles?  If so, what?

To carry on a wee bit more in a scientific logical progression...

Only if the answer to the first question is "Something very surprising  or potentially useful" need the second question be asked.  The third question need only be asked if the answer to the second question is "yes".  Then, and only then, the tough and expensive part comes, as the third question generally takes time, effort, clear thought, critical thinking and decent equipment to answer.  If the objective measurement phase yield positive results, we know the contraption does something useful and/or surprising and does it well (and repeatably).  We have numbers now.  We can start thinking about economics/applications/engineering, etc. 

The last two questions are the important ones in terms of any real "breakthoughs" in energy science.  It seems that in this thread and in general throughout the whole overunity/free energy realm, people immediately assume that something inexplicable by normal physics is occuring way before they ask and answer the first three questions.  Then, without benefit of any objective measurements or controlled testing of any kind, they leap to explaining in great complicated theories based on assumed answers of "yes" and "we don't really know" to the last two questions.

Maybe it's me that has it backward.  Maybe it's supposed to be that you should start by seeing anything that surprises you and immediately deciding that it must be a phenomenon inexplicable by standard physics, even if you don't know yet exactly what it is or why it surprises you.

You assume then since it is mysterious and surprising to you, that it must be extremely useful and contain the answer to most of the world's major pressing problems.  Yet you still can't say what exactly it does or how well it does it.  All efforts at quantifying or measuring or isolating any particular effect are lost quickly in a barrage of details about how to construct a device to "replicate" an unmeasured functional performance.

How does anyone ever know when they have successfully replicated anything here?  Without knowing the answers to the first three questions, it's just not possible to "replicate".  You have to know what it is you are trying to achieve replication of.  That's where this thread has me shaking my head and wondering.  But by all means, carry on...let not the skeptical newbie's stark questions deflect you from your progress toward...uhhh...well...whatever it is you are hoping to find!   ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on July 29, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
I didnt think to try it with electrolyte....but it sounds like fun!!! ;D

I am making a pressure tube now.....

xbox hacker,
Good work!  Give this a whirl.  Make a solution of colloidal copper as your electrolyte using simple electrolysis and distilled water.

Go to Home Depot and get a foot of number 12 copper wire and remove the plastic coating and make your electrodes from that.  This is a high enough grade of copper to perform this experiment.  In no way are colloids of this grade of copper fit for human consumption, in other words do not drink.

IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 29, 2008, 08:03:04 PM
@Dopey
I don't understand how you could watch the videos and not understand what this thread is about.
When electricity is discharged through a spark gap in water, a large amount of energy is released,
with enough pressure to blow a hole through 1/4 inch of aluminum. 
This thread is trying to tap this energy of water and use water instead of hydrocarbons to run an engine. 
The specialized spark gap appears to be tapping into an alternate energy source,
which causes the water to expand with enough force to run an engine.

@Everyone else
I hope I can explain this right. 
It would be easy to produce a steady high current output.
Find the ideal capacitance value for the spark, and then place as many of these capacitors
in a circuit as needed to keep up with the discharge speed.
While discharging one over the spark gap the rest are being charged, then rotate to the next capacitor as needed.
A 4 cylinder engine would have 4 capacitors, by the time you get back to cylinder #1 capacitor #1 is fully charged again.
If you get to #1 to fast for it to have charged then you can use 8 capacitors and each one is used every 2nd round.
What ever amount of capacitors is needed to keep up. Even if you need 20 capacitors. 
So that will solve the capacitor charge time problem. 
A car running on this could have a short warm up time while all the capacitors charge up to get them ready. 
Then away you go.

All we need to do is find the ideal capacitance and the best way to feed the water into the spark gap.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 29, 2008, 10:58:38 PM
xbox hacker,
Good work!  Give this a whirl.  Make a solution of colloidal copper as your electrolyte using simple electrolysis and distilled water.

Go to Home Depot and get a foot of number 12 copper wire and remove the plastic coating and make your electrodes from that.  This is a high enough grade of copper to perform this experiment.  In no way are colloids of this grade of copper fit for human consumption, in other words do not drink.

IndianaBoys
I was just going to use some Lye.... But i might give it try. (that rhymes...LOL)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: radicalzero on July 30, 2008, 12:16:20 AM
I love what everyone is doing. I just have a thought. If we look at the original s1r9a9m9 story, he said that he had dropped a live ac cord into a bucket of water. If we look at the process of electro hydraulic formation of metal we see that a large discharge occurs within a body of water (or oil). One of the videos posted here show a two liter bottle blasted off when a larger amount of water is on the plug.

Would it be better to measure the amount of empty space within the cylinder at TDC and only inject that amount of water into the cylinder. That way the shockwave produced in the water could push the cylinder and produce work without trying to split it or enhance the contents of the water. It seems to me that the water isn't actually a fuel but a medium for the shockwave (since water doesn't compress like air does).

If this is the case then the water could be reused over and over again (maybe a closed loop system). I know that too much water in a cylinder will cause it to lock up (because it can't be compressed).

Just my impressions at this moment. Thanx Dan Wilson Jr.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: winner on July 30, 2008, 01:10:04 AM
Yes...Post 1088 is a perfect example.  It goes on at great length about a complicated theory of something or other and uses a large number of non-traditional terms (diodes slamming shut and compressing things... ::)) and vague gibberish trying to explain something that the writer obviously does not understand.  Nowhere does it answer any of the basic simple practical questions I've asked.

What is the whole contraption intended to do?  Does it do it?  How well, in objective, measurable terms?  Does it do anything that normal, standard physics cannot explain on first principles?  If so, what?

Without solid answers to those questions being sought and discussed, the tendency is toward a ring-around-the-rosy parade of endless meaningless gibberish explanations that don't even warrant being called theories.  I'm sure it's fun to pretend and play, but will it get anyone any closer to providing answers to real-world energy problems...that is the question.  I have no opinion as yet, other than to say that what I've read on the thread so far does not address any of the basic scientific issues or questions.

Have I missed something?

These are good questions and I agree too they need clear answers. Here is my take, as an interested observer:

Quote
What is the whole contraption intended to do?
From Gotoluc's first post, the "contraption" is intended to produce an "efficient way to change water to a fuel." I'm sure it was also intended to provide a simple device for others to build and see first hand the water plasma spark phenomenon, thus growing public awareness and interest in this potential energy source. A third goal, I think, was to provide a practical starting platform for others to experiment with and explore improvements. Gotoluc, if I am wrong in my understanding, please correct me.

Quote
Does it do it?
The circuit appears at first to produce an efficient "water to fuel" effect, yes. By "efficient," this is in contrast to the comparatively high current HHO production experiments.

Quote
How well, in objective, measurable terms?
Callanan/Ossie has pointed us to a research paper "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy." See >this post (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420)<. Do you have any suggestions on how results can be measured? The FE open source movement is the "wild west" of research, so not everyone is going to have exactly the same wagon. ;-) Yes, it would be great to establish a common measurement technique to evaluate effectiveness of circuit changes.

Quote
Does it do anything that normal, standard physics cannot explain on first principles?  If so, what?
I don't think anyone is making a claim of this sort. But, I would say it DOES produce an extraordinary effect, easily reproduced, and thus is valuable as a teaching tool and a starting place for open source propagation.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 30, 2008, 02:02:36 AM
Thank you, Winner

Those are good answers.  So...the idea that excites here is more than neat, pretty sparks and excited forum comrades having fun playing in their chosen hobby, I take it.  There is the elusive promise of "Changing Water into Fuel".  But no one here has yet made any kind of measurement as to whether the resulting fuel provides more or less energy than required in electrity to change it.  Some other guys with entirely different apparatus report that they have done it with COP>1 but no one in the "scientific community" has reproduced that work.

Is all of that about right?  I guess the way to measure it is to burn the fuel produced with a know measured quantity of electrical energy input in the most efficient possible way in an insulated, closed environment.  Then measure the temperature rise produced in a known quantity of media such as air or whatever the "water fuel" is proposed to be used to heat.  If the idea is that this "fuel' can power an internal combustion engine, then heating compressed air rapidly in an enclosed volume is the measure of merit.

The energy-content figures for gasolines of varying octane under varying conditions of use (pressure, air/fuel mix, etc) are well-studied in the scientific literature.  Of course there, the spark igniting energy is fairly miniscule compared to the energy released.

Here, it appears that the spark igniting energy may be significantly more...possibly (actually quite probably) more than the total energy available from the resulting "fuel".  Finding the answer to this question, in my opinion, would be the key to deciding whether this is a practical real phenomenon worth developing.  I don't see that answer being pursued very diligently here, that's all I'm saying.

Anyway, Winner...thank you very much for your response.  And to all...carry on, gentlemen!  Let's see who is the first to demonstrate and quantify something here that perks up the curiosity of "regular scientists"!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 30, 2008, 02:38:59 AM
Here, it appears that the spark igniting energy may be significantly more...possibly (actually quite probably) more than the total energy available from the resulting "fuel".  Finding the answer to this question, in my opinion, would be the key to deciding whether this is a practical real phenomenon worth developing.  I don't see that answer being pursued very diligently here, that's all I'm saying.

I asked a few questions early on that I considered pertinent, but got dismissed as a 'crapster'.  I thought it relevant to determine what it is we're actually trying to measure, and define a way to do that rather than discussing methods of internal combustion engines.  I don't know electronics well at all, but I would have thought that since the idea appears to be based around HV/LV circuits, then it would be useful to push the boundaries of that a little, and see what 1,000,000volts at 0.00001 amps, or vice versa would look like.  Intuitively I feel there are flaws in the circuit design still (probably due to the added complications that would manifest more readily if trying to push this design to extremes of voltage/amps).  If in the HV circuit it's only volts that matter, then it seems reasonable to me to reduce the amps as much as possible to save energy, and the same when requiring amps.  If 5W is all that's required instead of 200W then the usefulness of this idea can more easily be quantified.  Judging by the sound coming from these explosions it seems that the rate of expansion of the water is great, although the kinetic energy is not yet known.  That to me says ICE is not the ideal way forward (although it may still be applicable).  Trying to contain this explosion in a small area would add a huge amount of knowledge to this project.

It's still more than a month away before I return to my home country and be in a position to experiment, but I follow this thread all day long looking to formulate ideas/hypothesis to explore when I'm in a proper workshop and able to build the idea that is being modelled in my head.  I appreciate the balance of 'basic observer questions from classical training' mixed with the open mindedness to take on a new paradigm.

Regards

Paul
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: biggs on July 30, 2008, 03:53:39 AM
Hello
I would like to make a few comments here. The thread started out with sr9's videos showing a small engine running on water and modified electricity, as the key to create sparks that effects water to produce force enough to make the small engine work. I sent Sr9 an email asking if he may be so kind as to show whats inside the tin can. Sr9 replies with a link that shows whats inside the tin can, which to me looks like coils and a nail. He also films it coming apart. Now my point,  I don't see caps, diodes and stuff in this can. Am I missing something here? What I do see is the use of what some have called 90 degree electricity, which is neither positive nor negative but does harness extreme power. This power is used to force/disrupt the space water is holding at rest forcing it to expand.
Tesla experimented on this energy and it has been reported that it can shake the planet apart very easily from it's power. I think once you find how to produce this energy, then replication will be easy.
I do believe using other methods of electrical power may produce similar results, but I think many here are off on a tangent.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on July 30, 2008, 03:57:38 AM
Please excuse my ignorance...it's been over 30 years since my electronics training (haven't used it much since). I'm trying to find a 100 to 200 uf cap in the 200-250v range to use in the spark circuit. Would a motor start capacitor work? I can get one from a surplus dealer. They're pretty big but as long as the ratings match it should work... right?

Thanks,

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 30, 2008, 05:43:56 AM

These are good questions and I agree too they need clear answers. Here is my take, as an interested observer:
From Gotoluc's first post, the "contraption" is intended to produce an "efficient way to change water to a fuel." I'm sure it was also intended to provide a simple device for others to build and see first hand the water plasma spark phenomenon, thus growing public awareness and interest in this potential energy source. A third goal, I think, was to provide a practical starting platform for others to experiment with and explore improvements. Gotoluc, if I am wrong in my understanding, please correct me.
The circuit appears at first to produce an efficient "water to fuel" effect, yes. By "efficient," this is in contrast to the comparatively high current HHO production experiments.
Callanan/Ossie has pointed us to a research paper "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy." See >this post (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420)<. Do you have any suggestions on how results can be measured? The FE open source movement is the "wild west" of research, so not everyone is going to have exactly the same wagon. ;-) Yes, it would be great to establish a common measurement technique to evaluate effectiveness of circuit changes.
I don't think anyone is making a claim of this sort. But, I would say it DOES produce an extraordinary effect, easily reproduced, and thus is valuable as a teaching tool and a starting place for open source propagation.
 

Thank you winner for helping. All you have said is excellent. In some cases we are not able to satisfy everyone and that is fine.

@everyone, when individuals are questioning without putting in the effort of a simple replication, we should be cautious. We will not be able to satisfy them since our answers will lead them to more questions.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 30, 2008, 06:00:09 AM
Please excuse my ignorance...it's been over 30 years since my electronics training (haven't used it much since). I'm trying to find a 100 to 200 uf cap in the 200-250v range to use in the spark circuit. Would a motor start capacitor work? I can get one from a surplus dealer. They're pretty big but as long as the ratings match it should work... right?

Thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave, welcome :D aboard. You would find those caps in a CRT computer monitors. I see them in the garbage everyday now since everyone want LCD monitors. They contain all kinds of good parts! transistors, caps, diodes and a flyback transformer. Computer power supplies also have many good parts. I picked up 4 CRT's form the garbage and now have a large stock of components. Motor capacitors are more for AC. The circuit is using DC, so polarized caps will work better.

@everyone, please recycle parts. The most you need to spend to build this circuit is maybe $15. and that would be for a new coil: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ACCEL-Super-Stock-Ignition-Coil-40-000-8140C_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em14Q2el1318QQhashZitem190239383626QQitemZ190239383626
but you should be able to get one for less from a junk yard. I have demonstrated in my updated video that you can just plug the bridge in the wall, so you don't need an inverter to see the effect.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 30, 2008, 06:31:54 AM
Thank you, Winner

Those are good answers.  So...the idea that excites here is more than neat, pretty sparks and excited forum comrades having fun playing in their chosen hobby, I take it.  There is the elusive promise of "Changing Water into Fuel".  But no one here has yet made any kind of measurement as to whether the resulting fuel provides more or less energy than required in electrity to change it.  Some other guys with entirely different apparatus report that they have done it with COP>1 but no one in the "scientific community" has reproduced that work.

Is all of that about right?  I guess the way to measure it is to burn the fuel produced with a know measured quantity of electrical energy input in the most efficient possible way in an insulated, closed environment.  Then measure the temperature rise produced in a known quantity of media such as air or whatever the "water fuel" is proposed to be used to heat.  If the idea is that this "fuel' can power an internal combustion engine, then heating compressed air rapidly in an enclosed volume is the measure of merit.

The energy-content figures for gasolines of varying octane under varying conditions of use (pressure, air/fuel mix, etc) are well-studied in the scientific literature.  Of course there, the spark igniting energy is fairly miniscule compared to the energy released.

Here, it appears that the spark igniting energy may be significantly more...possibly (actually quite probably) more than the total energy available from the resulting "fuel".  Finding the answer to this question, in my opinion, would be the key to deciding whether this is a practical real phenomenon worth developing.  I don't see that answer being pursued very diligently here, that's all I'm saying.

Anyway, Winner...thank you very much for your response.  And to all...carry on, gentlemen!  Let's see who is the first to demonstrate and quantify something here that perks up the curiosity of "regular scientists"!

@dopey, you sound like a knowledgeable person. The information here may not please everyone. If you truly seek answers then you should know that a replication is needed.

Anyways, how could you trust our answers??? when we don't speak your science.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on July 30, 2008, 06:48:08 AM
Thanks Luc,

I'm stripping an old pc power supply now and I've got my eye on an old CRT in my closet.

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 30, 2008, 07:35:46 AM
If anyone hasn't seen this show I would highly recommend you do.
It is related to what we are trying to achieve here.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=Equinox+-+It+Runs+on+Water+%28Free+Energy+-+1995%29&hl=en&sitesearch=&aq=-1&oq=#
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 30, 2008, 08:14:01 AM
If anyone hasn't seen this show I would highly recommend you do.
It is related to what we are trying to achieve here.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=Equinox+-+It+Runs+on+Water+%28Free+Energy+-+1995%29&hl=en&sitesearch=&aq=-1&oq=#


@AbbaRue, yes an excellent choice for this occasion. Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 30, 2008, 10:10:29 AM
@dopey, you sound like a knowledgeable person. The information here may not please everyone. If you truly seek answers then you should know that a replication is needed.

Anyways, how could you trust our answers??? when we don't speak your science.

Luc

@Luc and All...

Please don't be offended.  I fully understand that your work on this is not being done "to please me" or to satisfy my personal curiosity.  Certainly, I am not demanding anything from anyone here at all.  I applaud your enthusiasm and your eagerness.  The project is quite interesting.  That having been said and sincerely meant, I cannot help but continue to wonder about the rush to "replicate".

I don't understand how anyone attempting replication would have any idea whether or not they had succeeded or failed.  After reading most of the thread and watching most of the videos, I have apparently missed the part where the specific performance claims and metrics are described.  Can someone tell me where that information is? 

In order to replicate a legitimate experiment, no matter whose science is being used, isn't it rather necessary to have a measurable result in mind?  Otherwise, no one could ever possibly complete a replication and claim the experiment to be a success.  This is the part that I'm confused about and it is perfectly understandable and fine if the forum members do not share my confusion or feel that my question is even legitimate. 

In "my science", as you call it, the claim of a successful replication requires some form of objective comparison of measurable repeatable results in a known, controlled setting.  I would appreciate any help in understand what constitutes a successful replication in "your science", if I may be permitted.

Golf is a great hobby and a popular pursuit of many.  Is there more to "your science" of "open source replications without measuring results" than a very enjoyable hobby?  Golf, you see, does not claim to answer any practical real-world problems (other than relieving the boredom of the wealthy).  This thread and most other threads here seem to begin by announcing the discovery of a fantastic and wonderful new advance in useful practical knowledge and promises of an amazing new breakthrough technology. 

Yet none of the hundreds of enthusiastically-launched threads seem to end by actually demonstrating any useful benefit beyond providing an entertaining and enjoyable hobby.  And there's nothing wrong with that, by God!  As long as it is not cloaked in some grandiose pretense (or is that what fuels it all?) of actually solving some real problem.

Could this ubiquitous sequence of initial manic enthusiasm, "propagation" of aggressive "blind replication efforts" and a willingness to ignore the need to quantify and accurately measure/describe/publish results be related to the obvious fact that every one of these threads seems to die a slow agonizing death in the end...without providing squat "for mankind"? 

Or is this one finally going to be the one that flowers into a utopian future... :)

"My science" would describe the experimental apparatus that produces the high voltage pulses as a "black box" with a given set of port characteristics and a function.  The focus, then, of exploring the actual phenomena of interest would shift to the measurement and documentation of specific results and possibly a theory, if existing known principles fail to explain the observed, measured behavior.

"Your science" seems to focus on the endless details of constructing various versions of the experimental apparatus without ever first describing it as a "black box function".  The business of evaluating, measuring, describing and documenting the "surprising new unexpected results" that are always claimed or at least suggested...well...it seems to vanish entirely from the efforts.  Theories abound from all quarter well prior to any clear description or objective evaluation of the "assumed-a priori-to-be-surprising" results.

Have I got it wrong?  It's okay...no one has to answer...I can just lurk and observe the progress or degeneration...

It would be neat, though, if someone actually published some decently-measured controlled (i.e. made under known conditions)observations and some clear claims of experimental (hopefully surprising and promising) results.  Then, and only then, would I be interested in replicating.  Otherwise, how would I know if I had replicated with success?  Or isn't that important in "your science"?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 30, 2008, 10:46:43 AM
@dopey
'your science' appears to involve a lot of talking and very little, if any building...

the experimental results would be an I.C.E. running on water, how ever rough it runs or even if it only idles. obviously, if you can achieve that, then you would have your 'success'.

yes, theories abound from all quarter well prior to any clear description or objective evaluation of the "assumed-a priori-to-be-surprising" results. this is how the world works too bad if you don't like it. by 'god' there are still people that believe in some bearded metaphysical shepherd entity in the sky but not elves and dragons, 'scientists' no less.

please go back to lurking or does 'your science' focus on the endless pedantic requirements of structure and useless talking?
or you could actually DO the experiment with YOUR OWN strict requirements of structure... or isn't that important in "your science"?

@ gotoluc and the rest of the builders
stay with it!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on July 30, 2008, 11:24:57 AM
@dopey
dayyum- even as i call up the reply box i see Wilby has beaten me too it !  :)

i was going to say something along the lines of:  ok, show us all how to do it, Dave... sorry... dopey...  roll yer sleeves up, get yer hands dirty & 'muck in'

this reminds me of a song from decades ago when i was just a wee bairn - 'there i was, digging a hole, a hole in the ground..'  a workman is in the process of digging said hole and a guy in a bowler hat comes up & tells them he's doing it all wrong, 'you're digging it round & it ought to be square' - that sort of stuff

the song ends with the workman finishing the job, hole filled in...

the guy in the bowler?    ...occupying the hole


i don't know that anybody here claims to be a trained scientist, D, but we're certainly explorers

we've heard that someone thinks that the 'earth is a sphere' - so, if established science has decided to lock itself in an ivory tower and continue believing that the 'world is flat', we're off in a boat to find out for ourselves

yep, we're not good navigators, we don't have a great boat, we don't have public funding

if, by some amazing chance, Einstein was correct in assuming some kind of  'vacuum medium' whilst he was on the road to giving us GR, then we certainly aren't going to find it by not looking

if you're really so concerned about the 'standard' of experimentation then lead by example - start a thread, run an experiment to test an 'overunity' claim, observe it, report it, document it - all as you would like to see - educate us in 'the way'

if you're not really interested in making a positive contribution, then i have to question just what exactly is your motive for posting on this forum

all the best, D
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 30, 2008, 11:26:12 AM
@Dopey
I will put it this way.
There are 2 ways to go about solving a problem, Logically or Intuitively.
Your way of doing research is by the Logical route.
Taking measurements all along the way, and making minute changes.
But most of us here like to do things in an intuitive way.
We go with a gut feeling, and try new avenues.
The way I look at it;
The Logical route builds on what is already known and seldom comes up with anything new.
If it doesn't seem logical well then it just won't work, so it's no use trying it.

Intuition takes risks, and bypasses the slow route of doing everything one step at a time,
and along well known avenues. We try things that don't make sense just to see what will happen.
Sometimes hooking something up the wrong way ends up making a new discovery.
Personally I don't trust any measuring device. 
What will convince me of OU. is a device that powers itself. then there is No Question!  that it's OU.
Some of the projects on this forum are so different from main stream physics
that I doubt they can be measured using standard instruments.

We welcome you and your Logical route of doing things, we need your type of researcher too.
But please don't try to discourage us in our Intuitive approach.
If we get some really cool results then we do the measurements.
Together we can approach this adventure from both directions and maybe change the world.

So pick a setup that makes some logical sense and try and build it.
Then go from there one step at a time making changes and taking detailed measurements.
Then you can post them here for all of us to see.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on July 30, 2008, 12:39:06 PM
Dopey's got a point, but then again, I think all 7 dwarfs had one  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 30, 2008, 01:11:22 PM
With science and engineering both logic and intuition are used, or the left and right brain hemispheres.
Measuring is important to direct experiments and to prevent fooling yourself.
Even if an ICE runs smoothly on batteries, then that doesn't say a thing, it still could be 10% efficient and the fully charged battery could be drained in 5 minutes.
It's all about analyzing this single event, a single spark in this matter and check if the results are the same as graneau's.
Measuring the kinetic energy of a single discharge is a must if you want to know the COP and efficiency, or if the ice runs, it can be coupled to a generator, then also the COP can be determined.

But then again, I only talk :)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 30, 2008, 04:40:37 PM
With science and engineering both logic and intuition are used, or the left and right brain hemispheres.
Measuring is important to direct experiments and to prevent fooling yourself.
Even if an ICE runs smoothly on batteries, then that doesn't say a thing, it still could be 10% efficient and the fully charged battery could be drained in 5 minutes.
It's all about analyzing this single event, a single spark in this matter and check if the results are the same as graneau's.
Measuring the kinetic energy of a single discharge is a must if you want to know the COP and efficiency, or if the ice runs, it can be coupled to a generator, then also the COP can be determined.

But then again, I only talk :) 

Measuring is also important to determine whether a perceived "event" is really worth any trouble investigating!  Lots of "talk" and exchange of ideas and arguments is involved.  99% of scientific work that results in real discovery and development has to do with making sure you are not fooling yourself.  The other 1% has to do with imagination and exploration.  Seems the other way around here...

Yes...analyzing the single event...the single spark...that's what I'm after.  Where do I find "graneu's results" and experimental setup described for replication?  Please point that out...I missed it.

Thank you for your responses, all...

The sciences that have brought us all this far (all the tools you use, all the parts you use, all the test equipment you use, etc.) are "my sciences".  How people can take all that and use it while entirely rejecting the knowledge it is all based upon...wow..it's really ungrateful and arrogant sounding!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 30, 2008, 04:56:41 PM
Yes...analyzing the single event...the single spark...that's what I'm after.  Where do I find "graneu's results" and experimental setup described for replication?  Please point that out...I missed it.

if analyzing the single event is what you are after then GET AFTER IT, DO THE EXPERIMENT... how many people have to tell you this how many times?

science brought me this hammer?  ::)
what is arrogant sounding is you gabbing on about "science" and refusing to do the experiment...
THAT IS what science is, performing an experiment and observing it.

gotoluc, flex those moderator powers... please delete this guys USELESS posts as well as my responses.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 30, 2008, 05:22:35 PM
It is not "ungrateful" and "arrogant"... It is called invention ;) You should try it some time, it really is more intellectually satisfying than trying to denigrate others' important work.

What is going here is by empirical means, in unexplored territory, and has to be because "your" methods have utterly failed... In that by refusing to study and pursue or report on these phenomena the scientific mainstream has left it up to the home experimenters with meager resources to do so... if we ever want to see any action on this front at all. Then one of their acolytes comes on and complains about our lack of resources to "do it the right way"? Lol.... 

As for whether there is good reason to pursue these experiments without every possible measurement being made first... Who are you to determine that? Most of us have eyes and ears and intuition that can help us make decisions without the scientific community's blessing. Results will tell... If it is not done in the most efficient way possible, then why is this so important that you people feel compelled to remind us of it at every opportunity? It would seem to not be for "helpful" reasons, but rather as a means of attacking the results that are so clearly evident by "labeling" and discrediting them (which in this case, is pretty hard to do, so good luck ;) ).     

Scientific method would not entail making snide comments about failure (...which have no proof to back them), it would be rather disproving these events yourself, using your precious Method. So at least have the consistency to not judge without a study to back you (or your own data); otherwise you, like nearly every other naysayer we see around here (who BTW often have very similar writing styles), look rather like a hypocrite ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 30, 2008, 05:36:44 PM
The Graneau experiments:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

Mechanics, mechanical devices are based on incorrect Newton's laws and not on quantum mechanics, because they suffice the needs. Same with electronics, simple models are used because they work. CED works, but believably it is incomplete.

Wilb, damn whiner. Waste of time.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jamesneal6927 on July 30, 2008, 06:17:00 PM
Please understand this intent of this message and not henpeck the syntax.  Obviously I'm new to OU however I'm not new to mechanics, programming, or business (30+years) and an Master's degree in Business Administration (MBA).

I am not trying to discourage anyone; however, keep in mind that when this electric current is traveling down the wire to the spark plug there is the possibility that it can react to nature (lightening, etc) and cause undesirable effects.  Since Spark Plub Wires (SPW) crack over time this could be a great concern!  Research is being performed in the TPU threads about this exact occurance and just how detrimental it can be when not delt with properly; RF burns, machines torched, etc.

I am going to build a test unit as well and begin in earnest to get this working.  it is exciting and I'm tired of being forced to pay rediculous prices for things (gas, electricity, etc.) that don't cost that much to product.  I don't mind paying a reasonable price for something; hell, that's economics.  That's what makes the economies of the world tick.  Gouging, however, is not something I support; nor is underhanded dealings like forcing people like Steven Marks (TPU) to be quiet and fade away.

I'm almost positive that you (whomever discovers exactly how this works) will never get this into mass manufacturing; due to the economic impact it will have around the world.  At least not in our lifetimes. 

You will have to keep it public knowledge and try to educate the general population.  This will also have to be done by the entire group and not just one person.  That way, all the powers to be will not be able to control it.

In my humble opinion, our leaders (presidents, kings, etc.) are trying to figure out a way of keeping the money and economies of the world in the same hands before releasing the technology to the rest of the world.  Maybe make laws that control the use of certain frequencies or minerals (e.g. radio frequencies, radio active materials, etc).  Oh, haven't they already done that?  Now, how expensive is it for you to become a radio station.  What laws, permissions, etc. do you have to deal with?  How much do you have to pay?  They figured out how to keep the money and still provide the benefit for those technologies.  Obviously, there are some items that need to be controlled (e.g. radioactive materials, aviation frequencies, etc.).  There are so many more that you never hear about until you have made a discovery that they want to squelch.

Maybe each person could maintain a living document that is updated periodically as new discoveries or changes occure.  This document would include the tools used, materials needed to include quantities and possibliy even part numbers, schematics, step-by-step process they took to get where they currently are.  Then post the link along with a short discussion about what was discovered or changed.  I now this is a lot of work but the benefit can be immediate to future replicators.

This way, getting up to speed is MUCH faster and replicability becomes common.  Without this, everyone that wants to come into this process has to spend much of his/her time researching.

I'm not lazy, however, there is a lot of information that isn't relevant in forums.  I am just like most every other person in the world; very limited time to research/replicate.

Now that my diatribe is complete I would like to be pointed to 1 place where I can see the documentation on this and the schematics/instructions on how to proceed.  Reading 400,000 messages and filtering through all the stuff that is off topic makes my eyes bleed. LOL!

P.S.  I promise to stay on topic better in the future as well as short and sweet.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 30, 2008, 06:25:47 PM
Hello James, start reading the pdf one msg above yours.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 30, 2008, 06:45:41 PM
With science and engineering both logic and intuition are used, or the left and right brain hemispheres.
Measuring is important to direct experiments and to prevent fooling yourself.
Even if an ICE runs smoothly on batteries, then that doesn't say a thing, it still could be 10% efficient and the fully charged battery could be drained in 5 minutes.
It's all about analyzing this single event, a single spark in this matter and check if the results are the same as graneau's.
Measuring the kinetic energy of a single discharge is a must if you want to know the COP and efficiency, or if the ice runs, it can be coupled to a generator, then also the COP can be determined.

But then again, I only talk :)



If  we can get an ICE  running smoothly   using plasma  but the battery  is drained in 5 minutes  we are 90% there .     from that  point  we would need to  make the prosess more efficient .......or   add an alternator  or 2


Why  is  Graneau  the one to compare with ?
If you read the thread  another here has    replicated  many  of   Graneau's  work  and found  many discrepencies  and misleading  statements.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

The  way an intuative thinks is  completely  different than the way a skeptic  thinks .
The intuative  looks for ways that  something might work .......even  if it  doesn't  fit  the " rules "
A skeptic   is llooking for ways  that things won't work ....... The " rules "   are  sacred to  skeptics


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 30, 2008, 06:52:41 PM
If  we can get an ICE  running smoothly   using plasma  but the battery  is drained in 5 minutes  we are 90% there .     from that  point  we would need to  make the prosess more efficient .......or   add an alternator  or 2


Why  is  Graneau  the one to compare with ?
If you read the thread  another here has    replicated  many  of   Graneau's  work  and found  many discrepencies  and misleading  statements.


gary


Won't added alternators drain the batteries even faster?
Because G. claimed excess energy.
I haven't seen the posts you talk about, remember which page?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: terry muller on July 30, 2008, 07:33:26 PM
Hello guys,

can we imagine that the overunity of this process with water, is maybe coming from the transformation of natural monoatomic Hydrogen of H2O  into Hydrino: as Randel Mills from Blacklight explain us, hydrogen have a lot of energy behind his " ground level": his fondation " Blacklightpower" has now a lot of patents concerning this question: it's too late for others investisors

if interesting, you can find technicals informations at http://www.blacklightpower.com/ (http://www.blacklightpower.com/)

I'm coming from plasma technology and study the Gray tube, Corr?a tubes and naturaly this sp?cial double positives : today, for me, the  hydrino concept is for me the answer : Papp engine utilise this technology too, stanley meyer too: the Joecell alone is not solved by : why ? i don't know: some subtilities maybe !

hum ! don't mis this amasing hydrino, guys !  ::) it's surrely what you 're surching for

terry M
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on July 30, 2008, 08:39:57 PM
Not to side with "dopey", but how is this spark discharge any different than a high energy spark discharge from a burner igniter such as those by Durag?  These ignitors will also blow water off the gap.  No RE required.  You are all aware that water vapor is a polar dielectric - aren't you?  and at a certain energy level it undergoes a sudden shift to conductive - hence the use of water in pulse capacitors but not steady capacitors.

I've read Aaron's schpeal on the Gray tube and the low voltage side is just a bias - which happens to be important.  The HV goes to a lower potential positive - a biased ground - like splitting the positive.  Notice the Gray tube has two grids - one within the other - I'm sure that is important.

Didn't s1r say that his timing was retarded like 37 degrees or something like that?  Definitely vapor at the point as it is after the full compression and expanding.  Didn't he mention brown gunk in the valve covers?  You oil get's like that with a blown head gasket - just water and oil mixes very well.  This leads me to think that the water is not igniting and I believe he said he didn't know if it did or not.  If the water is being expelled against the cylinder walls, the oil will absorb a little of it just like the carbon from ignition fumes. If  the water is not igniting, then the HHO perspective is out.  Also, I happen to know that it generally takes boo-koo current to inject water vapor through a plasma and crack it enough to run a car.

Anyway, keep it up guys - great working coming out of this thread.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 30, 2008, 08:48:44 PM
Won't added alternators drain the batteries even faster?
Because G. claimed excess energy.
I haven't seen the posts you talk about, remember which page?

The  word you  used describing  the   how the engine  running  was " smoothly ",

To me   a  smoothly  running engine is not  faltering  or  stalling .......it is  running well  within  its  power  curve . 

If it is  truly  running smoothly    another  alternator  would   simply  provide more  electric  power   for the battery .   It WOULD  use  up more  of  the available   power  of the engine .

It is  possible  that  the engine  would no longer  run  smoothly  with the increased load ..





Sorry  I don't  remember  what page it is on .......it was  quite a while ago .

I personaly don't think that what Graneau  is  the same  as we are trying to do .

He was using   a large capacitor  bank and  very  fast  discharges . 

I don't think  that   either  the large   capacitor  bank or the  very fast  discharges are the way to go  .

It  is my opinion that   plasma is plasma .......   
Plasma is hot .
The  amount of  plasma   and the  length   of time that plasma is  sustained    is   what matters
I think  that  what matters  most is  how to  create plasma  most efficiently .
To me  .......that is the   value of this  thread .
 

There are   differing  opinions  on  the work of  Graneau
Personally  I  think either  side could  be disinformation .

WHat  I find  compelling  are the  videos of  small engines  kicking  over    or  running as in the  S1r video .     If the power to  run was not  there ...... these  engines  should not be kicking  over at all . .

I  can't imagine  a  gas engine   kicking  over  using the same  methods .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 30, 2008, 09:05:17 PM


I'm coming from plasma technology and study the Gray tube, Corr?a tubes and naturaly this sp?cial double positives : today, for me, the  hydrino concept is for me the answer : Papp engine utilise this technology too, stanley meyer too: the Joecell alone is not solved by : why ? i don't know: some subtilities maybe !

hum ! don't mis this amasing hydrino, guys !  ::) it's surrely what you 're surching for

terry M


Terry
How far did you  get  with the Grey tube?
I  have  studied  the  Grey  tube a little .

Do  you think  it  would  be possible   to  make a mini  Grey  tube  for  each  cylinder on  an  ICE ?


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 30, 2008, 09:25:59 PM
From  the Blacklight  page
Link on reply 1141

   
Quote
   

Lighting and Lasers

In an embodiment, the BlackLight Process forms a plasma (a hot, glowing, ionized gas) which also represents a new primary light source. Further, the process produces a new inert form of hydrogen gas that may serve in applications such as the medium for a new high energy laser.


A new  inert form of hydrgen?

I wonder  how much  of this it makes

If I understand right ........  inert hydrogen  will never  reform into water .     
I see this  as a possible  very  serious   form of  pollution .
If  used  to  extensively  it  would   eventually  turn the planet into a   dry wasteland.

gary
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: oldhermit on July 30, 2008, 10:06:23 PM
Re: Dopey....
<Measuring is also important to determine whether a perceived "event" is really worth any trouble investigating!  Lots of "talk" and exchange of ideas and arguments is involved.  99% of scientific work that results in real discovery and development has to do with making sure you are not fooling yourself.  The other 1% has to do with imagination and exploration.  Seems the other way around here...>

My idea of a measurement of success:  Running my old Honda generator without using gas or electricity from an outside source.  I don't really care if it costs me a few dollars to experiment or a few hours out of my life.  If I can manage to make the generator run off water I will be one happy soul.

Sounds like a good measure to me.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 03:37:40 AM
Clearly, no one here agrees on any measure of success nor is there any concensus on what the experiment consists of.  Each person has their own definitions.  So much for "replication"!  In this environment, there is no hope of success and no chance of failure.  It's a hobby.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: epwpixieq-1 on July 31, 2008, 04:30:57 AM
Measuring is also important to determine whether a perceived "event" is really worth any trouble investigating!  Lots of "talk" and exchange of ideas and arguments is involved.  99% of scientific work that results in real discovery and development has to do with making sure you are not fooling yourself.  The other 1% has to do with imagination and exploration.

This is why Tesla was not communicating with the others ! It was a lost time for him.
He was a builder and discoverer and notedly was marginalized by the scientist community. The World is lucky that sometimes there are people that can use their imagination and exploration a lot more then their reliance on/making sure to not fooling themselves.

sas
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on July 31, 2008, 05:08:22 AM
Well said.....

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 31, 2008, 05:25:53 AM
Clearly, no one here agrees on any measure of success nor is there any concensus on what the experiment consists of.  Each person has their own definitions.  So much for "replication"!  In this environment, there is no hope of success and no chance of failure.  It's a hobby.

Well I think it's pretty clear how to replicate any one of the many circuits in this thread. When you get a plasma arc then squirt a lil water on the gap and if the arc gets bigger then lo and behold you have success. Seems pretty simple to me but if you wanna get a govt grant and millions of dollars in test equipment just to say "yeah that arc got bigger when I squirted water on it" then by all means go ahead and do that. Good grief.  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 08:27:33 AM
Well I think it's pretty clear how to replicate any one of the many circuits in this thread. When you get a plasma arc then squirt a lil water on the gap and if the arc gets bigger then lo and behold you have success. Seems pretty simple to me but if you wanna get a govt grant and millions of dollars in test equipment just to say "yeah that arc got bigger when I squirted water on it" then by all means go ahead and do that. Good grief.  ::)

The promise of the thread is hopefully something beyond being able to say and demonstrate that "yeah that arc got bigger when I squirted water on it".  If that was the extent of it, to impress youself and your friends that a spark seems to get bigger when you squirt water on it, then I would think the video would suffice.  What would be the point of replication, other than a fun hobby project (and there's nothing wrong with that)? 

You must admit that it is a giant leap to conclude from any of this that the theorized energy being released from the water molecules is necessarily greater than the energy required to form the spark.  The published scientific paper does suggest that and* [see edit] does appear to be reasonably legitimate on its face and to have employed at least reasonable efforts toward measurement accuracy, although I understand the results have been widely challenged and credibly disputed by equally diligent researchers.  And, even with all the high-tech lab equipment and physics expertise of the whole lot of them focused on the subject, none have even attempted to show anything like a water-powered machine (on even the tiniest scale) based on this and it's been near ten years since that publication.

To conclude from any of this that by simply jacking up the pulse fed to an ICE's spark plug(s) and possibly tinkering with the carburetor or injection system, that an ICE would be able to run on water...that seems like a rather giant leap of faith and hope to me.  And one that remains entirely unsupported by evidence of any credible nature.

[edit]  On a more careful reading of the published paper, I have to qualify the stricken statement in a very important way that is basic to the whole question here.  It does not claim that the energy released from the water is greater than the energy required to make the plasma.  What it claims is that the total energy measured is greater when the water is present.  So the claim is not that there is any kind of overunity being shown, but rather that some tiny amount of energy appears to be added by the addition of the water into the plasma.  There is a huge yet subtle distinction there!

So, to make an analagous example, if I build an ICE with this technology, and let us say that the thermal energy released by a single "dry spark" (no fuel of any kind...gasoline or water or wahatever) in my machine is equivalent to 1 joule, let us say, then we obviously would not expect that amount of energy to expand the air in the cylinder with enough force to move the piston significantly.  In other words, you would not expect the energy just coming from the plasma arc on a normal car engine, by itself, to run the engine, would you?

Now, say that we had discovered this water thing causes the same 1 joule spark of energy (when dry) to mysteriously release 2 joules or even 5 or 10 joules of energy.  This is far more generous than anything suggested by the published paper or the original video of this thread.  Do you think the engine would run now?  Hell no, it wouldn't.

This whole thread seems to be based on a completely false hope that if water could be used to magnify the heating energy released by an electrical spark by a relatively small factor (far less than an order of magnitude), that one could skip the gasoline altogether.  Do you think that your car's engine would run on nothing but air if you put in a ten-fold ignition system?  Ten spark plugs per cylinder, each driven with the same energy that the single one there now has?  Or one spark plug per piston being hit with ten times the electrical energy?  Obviously not!

The foolish conclusions being leapt to in this thread and the wasted enthusiasm and efforts those wrong and unbased conclusions are leading to...all of it is the result of this pig-headed refusal to intelligently discuss the subject in any reasonable manner prior to diving headlong into utterly useless 'replications' of hardware.  It is a hobby where the enjoyment seems to be derived from an insistence on group delusion.



 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 08:30:51 AM
P.S.  My car runs on piss and vinegar.  I built it myself in 1966. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 31, 2008, 08:32:42 AM

Basically what we have here is a common strobe light circuit,
but in place of the trigger coil we use an  ignition coil,
and in place of the Xenon strobe tube we use a spark gap with water in it. 
We just upped the output of a strobe light circuit. 
In fact some people have tried using a strobe light and just replacing the Xenon Tube with a spark plug.
How can it get any easyer then that to explain. 
In fact I would have to say that this is one of the easiest devices on this forum to build.

Some people had difficulty with the inverter getting fried by back emf,
so we added diodes to block the HV from getting into the inverter.
We also added a lightbulb in series to act as a current limiter.
I mentioned keeping the Low voltage out of the High voltage end of the coil
by using another spark gap or diode in series with the HV positive terminal.
We have moved step by step into producing a High Output Strobe circuit.
Now we need to find the ideal Capacitance to produce the most efficient current pulse.
And we need to find the best way of introducing the water to the spark gap,
this might mean developing a new type of spark gap which is different from a standard spark plug. 
The purpose for using an inverter is to run this device from a 12Volt source,
but the inverter can be replaced by a good DC circuit connected to the mains 120V or 240V.
I would highly recommend using an isolation transformer when using the mains.
Then you can't get a 120V or 240V shock from just touching one wire, you have to touch 2 wires.
One old word of wisdom in working with dangerous voltages is:
"Use one hand at a time so you don't place your body into the circuit."

All this is moving along quite well, and is very easy to follow.
I don't see how it could be made more simple. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on July 31, 2008, 08:37:51 AM
Hi all,

I actually think the Papp engine is a water engine heavily disguised.

Interestingly, they use 4 spark plugs to create a lot of contact with what I think is the water vapour ( and not inert gas ).

My 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 09:11:00 AM
@dopey
One thing that really puzzles me is your constant question as how to replicate this device.
Are you blind?  Almost every page of this post has a schematic diagram of this device. 
How can you expect anyone on this thread to take you seriously,
while you keep asking such a ridiculous question.
Pick a number from 1 to 29 and then go to that page and build a copy of the circuit on that page.  ;D

Hilarious!  Why are there 29 pages of different circuits if it's so straightforward?  "My constant questions"?  Where have I once asked anything about how to build the test hardware?

You entirely misunderstand me.  I have longsince relegated the testbed hardware to the status of a trivial black box.  As you say, building it would be no problem whatsoever.  Why there are 29 pages of discussion and schematics on that subject says a lot for the confusion level of the members here...not mine!

My question has always been not how to build it but why build it?  To replicate the test hardware is not the same as replicating the experiment nor is it the same as replicating the measured results of same.  My problem is that people rush like fools to replicate every suggested bit of hardware suggested on this whole forum with never a thought or discussion or question as to why they are doing it...what exactly the experimental replication results might be or what exactly is the point of it all?

On a more careful reading of the published paper, I have to qualify the stricken statement (see my last post's edits...repeated here) in a very important way that is basic to the whole question here.  It does not claim that the energy released from the water is greater than the energy required to make the plasma.  What it claims is that the total energy measured is greater when the water is present.  So the claim is not that there is any kind of overunity being shown, but rather that some tiny amount of energy appears to be added by the addition of the water into the plasma.  There is a huge yet subtle distinction there!

So, to make an analagous example, if I build an ICE with this technology, and let us say that the thermal energy released by a single "dry spark" (no fuel of any kind...gasoline or water or wahatever) in my machine is equivalent to 1 joule, let us say, then we obviously would not expect that amount of energy to expand the air in the cylinder with enough force to move the piston significantly.  In other words, you would not expect the energy just coming from the plasma arc on a normal car engine, by itself, to run the engine, would you?

Now, say that we had discovered this water thing causes the same 1 joule spark of energy (when dry) to mysteriously release 2 joules or even 5 or 10 joules of energy.  This is far more generous than anything suggested by the published paper or the original video of this thread.  Do you think the engine would run now?  Hell no, it wouldn't.

This whole thread seems to be based on a completely false hope that if water could be used to magnify the heating energy released by an electrical spark by a relatively small factor (far less than an order of magnitude), that one could skip the gasoline altogether.  Do you think that your car's engine would run on nothing but air if you put in a ten-fold ignition system?  Ten spark plugs per cylinder, each driven with the same energy that the single one there now has?  Or one spark plug per piston being hit with ten times the electrical energy?  Obviously not!

The foolish conclusions being leapt to in this thread and the wasted enthusiasm and efforts those wrong and unbased conclusions are leading to...all of it is the result of this pig-headed refusal to intelligently discuss the subject in any reasonable manner prior to diving headlong into utterly useless 'replications' of hardware.  It is a hobby where the enjoyment seems to be derived from an insistence on group delusion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 09:23:36 AM
P.S.  My car runs on piss and vinegar.  I built it myself in 1966. 

I forgot to mention that I have had my esophagus, stomach, liver and kidneys removed and I drink nothing but Everclear, 151 Rum and aircraft-grade gasoline.  The vinegar is added just to kill the flavor.

 ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 31, 2008, 09:28:14 AM
@Dopey
Sorry for misunderstanding you, I withdraw my former statement.

As to why there are 29 pages of schematics:
As this thread progresses we work out various bugs, and we post our new findings.
That's not confusion that's scientific progression.
Like Thomas Edison trying different filament materials until he found the one that worked.
We try different setups until we get the one that works the best.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 09:42:13 AM
Try this experiment if you really want to know the comparative energy release efficiencies of water/air vapor versus gasoline/air vapor as ignited by a plasma arc.

Once you have successfully replicated the hardware and have produced the successful experimental subjective results of "a bigger spark when you spray water on it", then mount your sparkplug, tip inward, in a five gallon steel gasoline Jerry-can.  Put the sparkplug near the top.

Do these two experiments:

First, starting with a completely clean can (no gasoline residues), spritz your water in there.  Fire it off after sealing the can up tight.

Now, do the same exact experiment but spritz a fine mist of gasoline or alcohol in there...use an equal amount as you used water.

Now light it up!  You want to talk "bigger spark" huh?

Be sure to wear protective goggles and a flak jacket and maybe stand in the next county on the second half of the experiment.   ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gazzzwp on July 31, 2008, 09:51:02 AM
My biggest concern about this work is it's feasibility at high frequencies.

Nobody to my knowledge has demonstrated that the concept works above frequencies of a few hertz.

We need to work on solid state switching now, to prove that the effect works between say 10 and 70 Hz, otherwise I feel that  effort will only be wasted.  Relays are just not viable for this kind of work.

The big problem as I see it is that all circuits so far rely on huge capacitors and I see no way of incoprorating that into a high speed circuit.

Gazza
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 31, 2008, 10:09:07 AM
I was wondering when the M.I.B would join the thread. Listen to the sub frequency and you will hear ''Freedom of thought is dangerous, we are the institution''.  Getting too close are we?
D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dopey on July 31, 2008, 10:15:14 AM
I was wondering when the M.I.B would join the thread. Listen to the sub frequency and you will hear ''Freedom of thought is dangerous, we are the institution''.  Getting to close are we?
D

For you, I would recommend forgetting the goggles and flak jacket.  Just sit on the Jerry-can naked.   :-*

Really, is that the bottom line here?  Is that the best you can do when the absolute foolishness of another ill-conceived experiment is revealed clearly?  MIB?  I'm sure they exist, but the chances of this thread resulting in anything that threatened the "status quo" are about nil plus or minus nothing.  The MIB budget is, I would imagine, reserved for actual threats.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 31, 2008, 11:08:13 AM
@Gazza
I covered high speed operations in post #1113.
Charge up multiple capacitors at once and switch from one to the other as needed. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gazzzwp on July 31, 2008, 11:24:21 AM
Abba Rue

Can you sketch a circuit for us to show what you have in mind?

I have all the kit ready - I am just lacking ideas.

Check out the circuit in my post #1091 to see where I have got to so far.

I have 2 x high voltage capactitors if needed.

Gazza
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 31, 2008, 02:06:58 PM
The promise of the thread is hopefully something beyond being able to say and demonstrate that "yeah that arc got bigger when I squirted water on it".  If that was the extent of it, to impress youself and your friends that a spark seems to get bigger when you squirt water on it, then I would think the video would suffice.  What would be the point of replication, other than a fun hobby project (and there's nothing wrong with that)? 

You must admit that it is a giant leap to conclude from any of this that the theorized energy being released from the water molecules is necessarily greater than the energy required to form the spark.  The published scientific paper does suggest that and* [see edit] does appear to be reasonably legitimate on its face and to have employed at least reasonable efforts toward measurement accuracy, although I understand the results have been widely challenged and credibly disputed by equally diligent researchers.  And, even with all the high-tech lab equipment and physics expertise of the whole lot of them focused on the subject, none have even attempted to show anything like a water-powered machine (on even the tiniest scale) based on this and it's been near ten years since that publication.

To conclude from any of this that by simply jacking up the pulse fed to an ICE's spark plug(s) and possibly tinkering with the carburetor or injection system, that an ICE would be able to run on water...that seems like a rather giant leap of faith and hope to me.  And one that remains entirely unsupported by evidence of any credible nature.

[edit]  On a more careful reading of the published paper, I have to qualify the stricken statement in a very important way that is basic to the whole question here.  It does not claim that the energy released from the water is greater than the energy required to make the plasma.  What it claims is that the total energy measured is greater when the water is present.  So the claim is not that there is any kind of overunity being shown, but rather that some tiny amount of energy appears to be added by the addition of the water into the plasma.  There is a huge yet subtle distinction there!

So, to make an analagous example, if I build an ICE with this technology, and let us say that the thermal energy released by a single "dry spark" (no fuel of any kind...gasoline or water or wahatever) in my machine is equivalent to 1 joule, let us say, then we obviously would not expect that amount of energy to expand the air in the cylinder with enough force to move the piston significantly.  In other words, you would not expect the energy just coming from the plasma arc on a normal car engine, by itself, to run the engine, would you?

Now, say that we had discovered this water thing causes the same 1 joule spark of energy (when dry) to mysteriously release 2 joules or even 5 or 10 joules of energy.  This is far more generous than anything suggested by the published paper or the original video of this thread.  Do you think the engine would run now?  Hell no, it wouldn't.

This whole thread seems to be based on a completely false hope that if water could be used to magnify the heating energy released by an electrical spark by a relatively small factor (far less than an order of magnitude), that one could skip the gasoline altogether.  Do you think that your car's engine would run on nothing but air if you put in a ten-fold ignition system?  Ten spark plugs per cylinder, each driven with the same energy that the single one there now has?  Or one spark plug per piston being hit with ten times the electrical energy?  Obviously not!

The foolish conclusions being leapt to in this thread and the wasted enthusiasm and efforts those wrong and unbased conclusions are leading to...all of it is the result of this pig-headed refusal to intelligently discuss the subject in any reasonable manner prior to diving headlong into utterly useless 'replications' of hardware.  It is a hobby where the enjoyment seems to be derived from an insistence on group delusion.



 

Ok, just because you say it won't run an engine then I'm gonna stop experimenting with it. Thank you sooooooooo much for saving me time on this, glad you came along!!! I really thought water had more energy content than gasoline, thank you for setting me straight on that too. Oh yeah, I also thought it was overunity but once again thanks for setting me straight!! Folks let's cease and desist all experimenting immediately because Dopey says it won't work!! He knows that we aren't testing anything, we are just sitting there looking at the spark going ooooohhh aaahhh.

 I'll make it simple for ya, I am trying to see if this will run any kind of motor at all. Will it power a full size car engine? Doubtful but I don't know for sure because obviously I'm not as smart as you are. I can't just read a few papers on the internet (we all know everything on the internet is true) and say yeah that'll work or nope that won't work. I have to see for myself, that's just how I am ya know. If you are too stupid to read the thread and deduce from it what the intent is hear then you seriously need to move away from the keyboard. Boy you sure fit your name to a T.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on July 31, 2008, 04:25:35 PM
Just ignore the Dope. Don't lose sight of our goal.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 31, 2008, 04:28:22 PM
I think Dopey is making some very valid points, and he must feel like he's hitting his head against a brick wall.  I thought this group was about moving away from the heirarchical/centralised/microsoft approach, to the collaborative/decentralised/linux approach, but it's looking more like a mob rule.

I'm really not into the idea of trying to make ICE run as a first step, but to initially try to outline what is happening here.  However, in the spirit of trying to come up with something useful for those that really want to go straight for the ICE, let me recycle a few pertinent points that I've gathered from this thread.  There are two broad effects going on here that seem to be lost in the size of the thread.  There is the 'hot' ignition that uses current along with either the an electrolyte or water with a dielectric constant that leads to the same effect, and the 'cold' non/low thermal expansion that appears to be breaking the inter water bonding which is leaving the water molecule intact.

Using that latter, it is my believe (from others obervations), that this 'explosion' occurs in about 10ms, after which it implodes.  So the net pressure before and after the reaction is zero change.  This would be very simple to demonstrate by wetting the plug then putting a baloon securely over the end and doing a cold explosion.  My expectation is that the baloon will be the same size approximately before and after the explosion.  I also think that it won't expand very much, as even if the water expands by 1000 times, as the amount of water involved in relation to the volume capacity of the baloon it probably won't be enough to break it (I'd love to be wrong).  That's not a total loss though, it just means it would be better utilized in a different kind of engine as I stated much earlier in this thread, but if we're steadfast about ICE, then it has some implications:

1.  If it expands in 10ms (for example), that means you need to get the piston somewhere in the region of BDC before the implosion tries to pull it back up (or open a valve).  That's a heck of a lot of acceleration for a piston on a standing start, and a lot of volume to be filled with a smallish explosion.
2.  The most difficult part would be the standing start, and would likely benefit from an almost constant burn in order to attempt to keep the water expanded until the piston passes the bottom.  Once the piston is moving fast enough (say 6000rpm), a single pulse per revolution may keep it in motion, so faster running may be far more efficient (and may be the difference between draining the battery and charging it, assuming we don't yet know where the chemical or RE is taking place).

If the possible sources of entrained energy are unquantified, or possibly even unquantifiable by known instruments, then it would be well worth while to try to create an experiment that would allow the effects or derivatives of that energy to show us (eg simple baloon, static small explosion chamber with a couple of reed valves or tesla valvular conduits).

It looks to me that the benefit of the cold explosion is the huge energy pulse rather than the volume change.  I'll bet it could drive a hydraulic ram or something very well.  Maybe there's leverage there that could be exploited.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 31, 2008, 05:07:28 PM
I think Dopey is making some very valid points, and he must feel like he's hitting his head against a brick wall.  I thought this group was about moving away from the heirarchical/centralised/microsoft approach, to the collaborative/decentralised/linux approach, but it's looking more like a mob rule.


Shriver

I disagree
Dopey  has not  brought up any valid points ........and has added no  information  that may be useful  to anyone here .
He  didn't  even read  enough of the   thread to  understand what we are trying to do here .

Dopey  only wants a place to argue .........a  thread to trash .

Quote
I'm really not into the idea of trying to make ICE run as a first step, but to initially try to outline what is happening here.  However, in the spirit of trying to come up with something useful for those that really want to go straight for the ICE, let me recycle a few pertinent points that I've gathered from this thread.  There are two broad effects going on here that seem to be lost in the size of the thread.  There is the 'hot' ignition that uses current along with either the an electrolyte or water with a dielectric constant that leads to the same effect, and the 'cold' non/low thermal expansion that appears to be breaking the inter water bonding which is leaving the water molecule intact.

Using that latter, it is my believe (from others obervations), that this 'explosion' occurs in about 10ms, after which it implodes.  So the net pressure before and after the reaction is zero change.  This would be very simple to demonstrate by wetting the plug then putting a baloon securely over the end and doing a cold explosion.  My expectation is that the baloon will be the same size approximately before and after the explosion.  I also think that it won't expand very much, as even if the water expands by 1000 times, as the amount of water involved in relation to the volume capacity of the baloon it probably won't be enough to break it (I'd love to be wrong).  That's not a total loss though, it just means it would be better utilized in a different kind of engine as I stated much earlier in this thread, but if we're steadfast about ICE, then it has some implications:

1.  If it expands in 10ms (for example), that means you need to get the piston somewhere in the region of BDC before the implosion tries to pull it back up (or open a valve).  That's a heck of a lot of acceleration for a piston on a standing start, and a lot of volume to be filled with a smallish explosion.
2.  The most difficult part would be the standing start, and would likely benefit from an almost constant burn in order to attempt to keep the water expanded until the piston passes the bottom.  Once the piston is moving fast enough (say 6000rpm), a single pulse per revolution may keep it in motion, so faster running may be far more efficient (and may be the difference between draining the battery and charging it, assuming we don't yet know where the chemical or RE is taking place).

If the possible sources of entrained energy are unquantified, or possibly even unquantifiable by known instruments, then it would be well worth while to try to create an experiment that would allow the effects or derivatives of that energy to show us (eg simple baloon, static small explosion chamber with a couple of reed valves or tesla valvular conduits).

It looks to me that the benefit of the cold explosion is the huge energy pulse rather than the volume change.  I'll bet it could drive a hydraulic ram or something very well.  Maybe there's leverage there that could be exploited.




In  general I agree  with  most of what you have  said here.

I agree that it  will take  a much longer  burn    .........especially  when the engine is cold .
I  am  guessing  15 to 20 degrees   .................starting  at TDC

Your  balloon  idea  is  interesting .........but  I think  that most people here are already aware that  there an  implosion  type  of effect  following  the  expansion .



gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 31, 2008, 05:34:39 PM
@Shiver
You made some good points but the expansion ratio has already been proven. One member posted a video of a small two stroke engine which when "fired" produced a strong downward stroke.This is concrete proof a force has been developed but gives little insight into the strength of the force over time--- power to drive a load. There is another force that should also be considered as well, that is the force produced by a standing wave. We have this preoccupation with expansion and pressure as the only motive force available to us but there are other alternatives. If in fact the disruptive arc discharge produces a shock wave then this wave will strike the piston imparting a force on it and reflect back to the cylinder head and again reflect back towards the piston, the cylinder forming a resonant chamber. This resonant wave in itself could be the cause for expansion as the media is in oscillation, we know some humidifiers use sonic waves to expand water into water vapor thus producing an expanded media and these devices use very little power. I do not believe we should discount the possibility that a shock wave could produce a standing wave having the proper qualities to set the media into oscillation.
There is also the issue of "rate of change", if we produce an extreme change in the confined space of the spark gap and this change occurs over a very small period of time then we can say the single impulse can be "resonant" with any media having the same wave period. We have always assumed we require an alternating force to produce oscillations in the media---resonant oscillations, but this resonance is based on the frequency or rate of change. What has not been considered is the fact that a single discharge of large magnitude which has a rate of change or impulsive frequency in resonance with a media "IS" resonant with the media irregardless of whether the impulses continue or not. In this case the "effects" we are producing are based on the magnitude of the impulse but much more important is the rate of change or impulse duration. It's funny so many people have little idea why Tesla wanted to quench his spark gaps, why he spent so much time and effort to reduce the discharge duration, why the radiant effect only occured in the "instant" potential was applied or disrrupted. There is a very simple truth I have come to understand 1)Potential determines the extent of interaction with the media 2) The rate of change determines the qualities of the interaction with the media---- fundamentally this is all we need to understand.
Best Regards
AC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on July 31, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
Shockwave = yes

Everything else = no

The volume of the cylinder is constantly changing and you are also shock exciting every round.

On the water ignition subject - I've never heard of anyone burning HHO having water in the oil of the valve covers.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 31, 2008, 06:03:53 PM
What about explosive sound generated from spark gap ? Does it occurs also without water across sparkplug electrodes ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 31, 2008, 07:31:51 PM
@forest
Quote
What about explosive sound generated from spark gap ? Does it occurs also without water across sparkplug electrodes ?
Yes, it does ;D In fact the same sound (very loud crack) occurs when you simply short a charged capacitor with a screwdriver. The only change in the qualities of the discharge in the water arc circuit is that the discharge occurs across a gap due to the high voltage creating a conducting path. In this case we can say the gap itself has changed the qualities of the discharge as the discharge is travelling through a different media. I have also found interesting effects when the spark gap is replaced with an NE2 to charge a resonant tank circuit, it seems this circuit has many useful applications.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on July 31, 2008, 07:40:00 PM
Thank you very much. This quite prove my theory. Sound is a waste of energy, actually heat and sound is a conversion of Radiant energy into electromagnetic spectrum and mechanical pressure. Sound would indicate a conversion around sonic waves so I assume 1 - 20 khz frequency of discharge oscillation (sonic area)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 31, 2008, 07:54:06 PM
I'm pleased to see much more positive responses than I did in the past.  @AllCanadian, I bow down and admit that those points I had completely neglected to consider.  For the sound and light it may be possible to recover some of this, but I feel pretty sure that would only be if it was a cold rather than hot discharge due to the tolerances of bimetalic strips, PV's etc inside a live chamber.  Personally I keep coming back to a static chamber tuned, but I have to keep thinking about ICE when responding in this thread, which has a whole basket of extra complications.  If it were possible to conclude that it's all HV or LV that matters, then the extremeties of those would allow the actual energy consumed to be minimal anyway (practicalities aside).

@Grumpy, I'm struggling to see how the pressure change in the moving cylinder would affect the water behaviour.  I'm not taking a stance on that as I don't know, I'm just struggling to model in my head why the change would affect the active media.

@resonanceman, I believe everybody is our teacher, and sometimes those that provoke the worst in us will persist until we get the message.  He openly admitted right at the start that although he had classical training he was open to new ideas.  That not withstanding, I think it's a fair call to request a tape measure be put to the effect in order to define a better 'taxonomy' on the subject.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 31, 2008, 08:37:52 PM
@forest
Quote
Thank you very much. This quite prove my theory. Sound is a waste of energy, actually heat and sound is a conversion of Radiant energy into electromagnetic spectrum and mechanical pressure. Sound would indicate a conversion around sonic waves so I assume 1 - 20 khz frequency of discharge oscillation (sonic area)
I would agree sound and heat can be considered the lowest forms of energy, they are conservative--that is energy is conserved but they are entropic and are continually lowering there potential through expansion. They can be utilized as we know but do so at the cost of massive losses incurred in the system.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 01, 2008, 10:33:14 AM
OK let me explain why you gentlemen are rubbing people the wrong way.
This is an open source environment where the rules of established procedure simply do not apply. There are people here who are seeking knowledge and people with knowledge sharing it freely. The sweeping statements such as "unsuitable for ICE, etc." are based on what? Otto cycle, wankel, Jet, Heat pump? Your assumption that everyone is working towards the same goal is wrong. The questions you posed earlier have mostly been answered but instead of researching before asking, you just stumbled in and started shooting off.
Let me paint a picture: Ever been in a public place where the conversation is interesting and productive in a congenial atmosphere? Then someone walks in and starts criticising others point of view then dictating where the conversation should be heading. What happens? People leave.
Perhaps you have that as an agenda. Or indeed your social skills are in desperate need. Or you simply don't understand how to behave in an O.S. environment. Your behaviour is completely indicative of one of these.
D.     
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on August 01, 2008, 12:48:14 PM
...sweeping statements such as "unsuitable for ICE, etc." are based on what? Otto cycle, wankel, Jet, Heat pump? Your assumption that everyone is working towards the same goal is wrong.

Not based on any of those.  Based on the properties of the water and electricity as best I can discern based on the videos.  Don't bite my finger.  Look at where it's pointing.

Paul
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: oldhermit on August 01, 2008, 06:35:51 PM
Sooo... after this thread began as one for people trying to duplicate s1r9a9m9's video results, turned into a lot of people managing to burn water from a sparkplug, and then onto the normal discussion format of arguing over who's right and who's wrong and whether tis better to proceed by trial and error in your garage or if instead it was necessary to have strict scientific procedure by "qualified" personnel....

                          Did anyone ever try making that gizmo s1r9a9m9 showed in Video_3 and what            was the end result?  I'm going to this weekend (have to get a new sparkplug for the engine and an inverter today)  and would like to know others results, if any, for comparison.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 01, 2008, 07:21:48 PM


                          Did anyone ever try making that gizmo s1r9a9m9 showed in Video_3 and what            was the end result?  I'm going to this weekend (have to get a new sparkplug for the engine and an inverter today)  and would like to know others results, if any, for comparison.



Oldhermit

If you  are talking about  the S1r coil  there is not much  going on  here.

The  thread  is  at     http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5112.0.html


No  activity  here  for a while .........  The  latest I heard about it  ( on the Yahoo site )  was that   S1r  is   active  again ......and  trying to   explain  things .......at least a  little

The  last  email I  saw was about the  coil .....  you  need a coil for each plug ........but  you  don;t need the inverter . 

From  what I have seen of the coil ....... it is not  " traditional  "  electronics theory .   It  is  cheap and easy  to make  .........but most people  don't  understand  it


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dieder on August 01, 2008, 08:25:57 PM
Watching the video I am impressed by the growing spark. Is it possible that the spark is growing because of the acces instead of the closest ground that it is using the principle of HV arcing. Stan used a tube to increase production and get away from this effect. How does this circuit work on a WFC like stans?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Here2njoy on August 02, 2008, 12:03:51 AM
   Recent interview with Robert Krupa and the firestorm sparkplug
http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/shows/show_207413.mp3 (http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/shows/show_207413.mp3)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on August 02, 2008, 01:52:34 AM
Excellent find - great interview!!!  I have been looking for up-to-date info on this for ages.

In summary, the Firestorm sparkplugs may yet see the light of day, as Mr. Krupa mentioned he was going to Brazil to setup a manufacturing plant!  Also, he says that with an air-to-fuel ratio of 30:1 the ICE experiences a dramatic (practically zero) reduction in emissions, a huge increase in power and a 70% increase in fuel economy!  The bit about being able to reprogram the engine's computer via the standard diagnostic port seems kinda hard to believe though.  Well worth a listen...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 02, 2008, 02:24:41 AM
Personally I keep coming back to a static chamber tuned, but I have to keep thinking about ICE when responding in this thread, which has a whole basket of extra complications.

Shiver, please do not limit your post in this tread to just what works in a standard ICE, as my own clear Lexan engine that I will resume building next week is not a standard ICE. It will hopefully use both expansion and contraction energies. It will have no intake or exhaust. I will not even have a standard spark plug.

So let the creative ideals flow please.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 02, 2008, 02:46:54 AM
Hi All,

I have invested time and effort in all the promise of a water fuelled angine, and I am sooo confidenmt we will have a breakthrough that I am now proud owner of a 5 HP OHC Honda 4 stroke motor....

Putting my dosh where my mouth is.

Come on guys, dont let the turkeys get you down!!

I suspect we'd all be still gazing at the moon wondering what it was like of a few didnt have the imagination or backbone to just say "Stuff it - I'm gunno do it anyway!!" and the rest is history.....

I'd think less of open source if it were left to fizzle...the Man has won if it does......besides - if oil keeps going up, how else are you going to get around if we dont crack this thing?

Get stuck in lads..........God willing, we'll crack it soon enough!!.   ;D ;D

Cheers

Steve
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 02, 2008, 03:42:37 AM
   Recent interview with Robert Krupa and the firestorm sparkplug
http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/shows/show_207413.mp3 (http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/shows/show_207413.mp3)

Excellent informative interview Here2njoy. Thank you for posting.

Do you know when this interview took place (date or year)?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: europeanhillbilly on August 02, 2008, 04:09:57 AM
Do you know when this interview took place (date or year)?

Interview by James Robey with Robert Krupa,
inventor of the Firestorm spark plug,
June 2nd 2008

Original link: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/kywaterfuelmuseum/2008/06/02/Robert-Krupa
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on August 02, 2008, 06:05:38 AM
Shiver, please do not limit your post in this tread to just what works in a standard ICE, as my own clear Lexan engine that I will resume building next week is not a standard ICE. It will hopefully use both expansion and contraction energies. It will have no intake or exhaust. I will not even have a standard spark plug.

So let the creative ideals flow please.

Luc

Hi Luc,

I believe that a different approach is appropriate than standard ICE which is what I've been saying all along, at least until we understand what's going on, then maybe adapt the process for existing engines after that.  I've tried to attach a diagram of what I believe would be a more appropriate first step, but not sure if I have posting rights.  Notionally this would be based on a Tesla turbine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on August 02, 2008, 06:34:08 AM
It's very easy to change the programming or "tune" on an ecm in a car if you have the right ALDL cable and the right software. I do it all the time on the hot rod in the garage with a laptop.

I will have to disagree with Mr Krupa on the air fuel ratio, if you run an engine at a 30:1 AFR with just gasoline that motor will be toast in no time. It's just fact, it will melt the pistons and eventually seize.

I think one reason why these guys with the HHO generators can get away with running up to a 20:1 AFR with the efie system is because the HHO turns back to water which acts like water injection and will help keep things cool in the combustion chamber.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on August 02, 2008, 02:41:05 PM
Well Mr. Krupa does have independent data to back him (as well as a lifetime of experience in the automotive industry). If you were using regular "weak" spark, you may be right about the 30:1 but when plasma is used to ignite the gasoline it is a new ball game; and you can throw all those old theories and stats about fuel-air ratio out the window. Remember that he said that the exhaust temp went down 100 degrees.

The "1 Joule" of energy needed figure for plasma spark was interesting, we hadn't heard that one in earlier interviews i think.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 02, 2008, 04:46:21 PM
@bumfuzzled
Quote
I will have to disagree with Mr Krupa on the air fuel ratio, if you run an engine at a 30:1 AFR with just gasoline that motor will be toast in no time. It's just fact, it will melt the pistons and eventually seize.
I would agree, however your statement in itself gives us a clue as to the direction we should be heading. A lean AFR will "melt the pistons", as the expansion ratio(pressure) thus power developed is based on a rise in temperature in the cylinder how is it that a lean mixture can produce more heat?. In another thread I recalled how 20 years ago I was running a 1600cc VW engine on 80% methanol and had 8" blue flames coming out my 10" zoomy pipes(short exhaust pipes on each cylinder). I was running super lean and as you say super HOT, the issue was easily solved with proportional water injection and I retained all if not more power in the process of running a very lean methanol AFR. In truth most ICE's add extra fuel to "cool" the cylinder which makes no sense what so ever from the stand point of efficiency when you could easily add water to accomplish the same cooling.
What is not common knowledge is that the lean AFR follows a bell curve, that is as the AFR is leaned out the cylinder temperatures gets hotter and hotter then------starts to cool down as there is not enough fuel to produce the excess temperatures. This presents new problems as we are now in an area of combustion called "detonation" combustion. 10 years ago I built a few valveless pulsejet and pulse-detonation engines to explore this area further and I will tell you the transition from a conventional burn to detonation is beyond what we consider extreme. A good quality detonation in a conventional ICE would probably throw your cylinder heads through your roof in record time. In my pulse detonation engine I used schedule 160 pressure pipe that should tell you something of the dangers involved, however if you could produced produce peak temperatures at the top of the bell curve and introduce a "moderator" such as water vapor to control the burn I think this could work. Stan Meyers used exhaust gas recirculation as a moderator(atmospheric nitrogen) to control the combustion speed in his HHO injectors as can be seen in his patents.
I know this may seem a little off topic but if we are dealing with efficient "combustion" it helps to know the facts you are not going to read in the textbooks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on August 02, 2008, 06:01:59 PM
You can't really compare alcohol fuels to regular gasoline, they are nowhere near the same. Methanol burns very cool and very slow compared to gasoline. That's why you were seeing flames shoot out the exhaust, same reason you see them shooting out of the top fuel dragsters, that fuel burns slow too, it's still burning as it comes out the exhaust. Ever seen them spray the throttle blades just before they launch off the line? That's to keep them from freezing, that's how cold it gets. The superchargers will actually ice up on the outside too. Ethanol burns slower and cooler too. I can run ethanol in the hot rod and actually see condensation form on the supercharger because it's cooling so much and could probably lean it out a lil and be ok but that's not a chance I'm willing to take. I've got a few drag racing buddies that have to put a high temp thermostat in the motor when they run alcohol because at the end of the track the engines have cooled so much that they won't hardly run.

I can't comment on if introducing a plasma ignition system will allow you to lean it out to a 30:1 AFR because I've never done that but I'm highly skeptical of it. Ever heard of a lean misfire?? At 30:1 I don't think you'd have enough fuel to even get the engine to idle much less run down the road.

You are exactly right, the extra fuel is to help keep the combustion chamber cool, same reason for a richer mixture at wide open throttle. That's why I say these guys running HHO generators can lean the motor out so much and still be ok because when it turns back to water it's the same as water injection. Trust me I've seen it happen time and time again, you run an engine lean without any "outside" help and it will burn itself up.

 As far as detonation in an ICE, might as well just throw a grenade in one cylinder, it would be about the same end. The pressure spike from detonation is tremendous and will pound rod bearings and piston tops to death. Yes water injection will help stave this off by keeping things cool (as will alcohol fuels), I have that on the hot rod,  it allows more ignition timing also but you better hope yer pump doesn't go out or yer injector doesn't get clogged up.

I'm wondering if a plasma ignition would help with detonation. Wonder if it creates a faster burn therefore not giving the fuel enough time to detonate. Same as the "fast burn" heads you can buy. Same reason in a hot rod motor you want a very small squish area, to keep gases from "hiding out" and causing detonation.

Who wants to be the first to put plasma on their car and lean it out that far to see if it's possible? I might have to pull the AFR gauge off the hot rod and hook it up to a small engine and just see what happens the leaner it gets.


Also forgot to mention that when detonation occurs you will actually see exhaust temps drop but engine temp will go up. Don't know exactly why because it's been awhile since I read up on that.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 02, 2008, 07:42:56 PM
@bumfuzzled
It's good to see a person who knows his stuff  ;) I got similar results leaning out gasoline as well as methanol, on gas my pipes where smokin hot. ;D
Quote
I can't comment on if introducing a plasma ignition system will allow you to lean it out to a 30:1 AFR because I've never done that but I'm highly skeptical of it. Ever heard of a lean misfire?? At 30:1 I don't think you'd have enough fuel to even get the engine to idle much less run down the road.
Actually a stronger ignition is a requirement for burning natural gas in larger engines like the waukasha stationary engines used in gas compressors having massive combustion chambers. This high voltage ignition is to prevent the "lean misfire" you have mentioned, most gas turbines I have seen also use high intensity plasma igniters for starting, when I first saw the large discharge from my replication of Gotoluc's circuit a lean burn engine is the first thing that crossed my mind. I think this is the perfect application for it while working towards a "water" engine.
Quote
I'm wondering if a plasma ignition would help with detonation. Wonder if it creates a faster burn therefore not giving the fuel enough time to detonate. Same as the "fast burn" heads you can buy. Same reason in a hot rod motor you want a very small squish area, to keep gases from "hiding out" and causing detonation.
From my pulse-detonation engine I learned that true detonation is not a "burn" it is a hopefully a controlled "explosion" as all the fuel combusts instantly at the same time, there is no flame front or fast burn, a pressure wave ignites all fuel explosively instantly----think of a 6sq/in chamber producing a noise like a freaking howitser and knocking all kinds of heavy shit off your garage walls, I got it working perfect every time then put it on a shelf to collect dust for my own safety. A person named Somender Sing if I have his name right ;D has done remarkable work with squish bands and minimizing detonation, he is light years ahead of the auto engineers.

Quote
Also forgot to mention that when detonation occurs you will actually see exhaust temps drop but engine temp will go up. Don't know exactly why because it's been awhile since I read up on that.
It would make sense that detonation would produce spot heating in the combustion chamber while producing a more complete burn leading to more pressure being present in the cylinder when the exhaust valves open, This may produce a greater expansion ratio across the exhaust valves when first opening thus a cooling effect----my best guess ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 02, 2008, 09:36:04 PM
@Shiver, bumfuzzled, allcanadian, jibbguy & plasmastudent77,

thanks for the information and your ideas posted. I do agree!... if this circuit could be used to help a lean the mixture of a ICE without a meltdown I think that would be a good start also, so lets work on that and share the findings.

Ever since this circuit was discovered I always had GEET at the back of my mind. With the GEET system you can bring the water ratio up to around 70% but anything higher than that would not work. However as far as I know I don't think they ever worked on the spark to see if that would help to increase the water ratio.

What do you all think of that? please let me know your thoughts.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 02, 2008, 10:10:33 PM
@Luc,

It's funny you say that, i was telling my wife the same thing this morning....My thoughts were to use a Geet reactor in the exhaust , Plasma spark plug and HHO to increase the flame speed.....I've been playing around with the idea in my mind for weeks now, it's good to hear others are having the same thoughts.....

Mahalo Nui Loa

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 02, 2008, 11:00:34 PM
Great HV :D

so are you Hawaiian or live in Hawaii?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 02, 2008, 11:33:42 PM
@Luc,

My wife and keiki (kids) are hawaiian, we live in Maui county....

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 03, 2008, 04:43:39 AM
I see and now understand the happyvalley ;D

I would be a happyvalley if I was living in Maui anytime to a Canadian winter!

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: chubbynut4122 on August 04, 2008, 04:43:12 AM
 ???i know this sounds way out there what if we made the spark plug non resistor type we use the 110 inverter use diode bridge tto rectifie back to dc 150v use pos  on outer tip of plug  neg to plug base making ground for that plug and also makeing the block ground now we add more water in jetting up if thats what you want to call it change timing to after top dead center now i think youl get electolisis going on in the chamber while piston is going down and back up when plug fires you would ignite all hho in cylider  i think you could use to diodes to make sure lv doesnt get hit with hv and vice versa what if this is actualy what is happening in sirs car rather than plasma spark problem would be so many diffent materials used in making differant engine stock 78 camaro would have spun steel pistons steel heaeds and valve newer cars have aluminum heads this would make large diffence in the amount of electolise done in engine think ill try this this week on my old ford any ideas on where to place diodes whould be appreciated sorry guy not good at typing or punctuation but am a great gearhead
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: GrawpSVK on August 04, 2008, 11:05:05 PM
Hi. I'm new here.
I'm going to start my own experiments on thursday ('cos appropriate diodes aren't available right now at my local electronic shop). Have somebody already measured the pressure of explosion and implosion through the time. Sound analysis? High speed shooting video camera? Spectral analysis? Have somebody tried to insert a little drop of pure (or ordinary destilled) water to the spark gap and the fire it? What about cavitation effect and sonoluminescence?

I've seen a video showing the explosion driving piston down in ICE (so the implosion time was shorter than explosion during piston drive-down),  but is there overunity?

sorry for my english
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on August 05, 2008, 04:17:36 AM
I did a test with Luc's circuit and a homemade spark gap to see what kind work the spark could do. It won't dislodge a cork if it is pushed in with any force. Promising, but a long way to go.

Cap was 100uf @ 350v. Charged to around 150vdc using 110 main (no inverter).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSoWfYTyXUA

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 05, 2008, 05:42:21 AM
@everyone,

the topic here at Overunity is suffering, lac of team work. However at the Energetic Forum it is thriving with team work.

Just have a look at all these new video's by members there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWO0nMUm-pE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMELbK8zDQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEfQUZJyrok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdxBbb-tR3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-YtAX6j_hg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 05, 2008, 06:12:32 AM
I did a test with Luc's circuit and a homemade spark gap to see what kind work the spark could do. It won't dislodge a cork if it is pushed in with any force. Promising, but a long way to go.

Cap was 100uf @ 350v. Charged to around 150vdc using 110 main (no inverter).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSoWfYTyXUA

Dave

Hi Dave, thanks for doing this video demo.

@everyone,

I know most people want more or just free energy, that's why most come and then move on to something else.

However, I feel the circuit and effect is not totally understood yet.  I think it has much more development potential and it may have many other circuit applications it could be used in, as allcanadian has indicated. New discoveries will only come when we work together as a group and share.

If we are looking for water and we dig here, then there, then somewhere else, how can you get to the source?

Seems Man has lost more then just the knowledge of Nature.


Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 05, 2008, 02:42:40 PM
Hi. I'm new here.
I'm going to start my own experiments on thursday ('cos appropriate diodes aren't available right now at my local electronic shop). Have somebody already measured the pressure of explosion and implosion through the time. Sound analysis? High speed shooting video camera? Spectral analysis? Have somebody tried to insert a little drop of pure (or ordinary destilled) water to the spark gap and the fire it? What about cavitation effect and sonoluminescence?

I've seen a video showing the explosion driving piston down in ICE (so the implosion time was shorter than explosion during piston drive-down),  but is there overunity?

sorry for my english
Here is a image of a plasma firing with gauge....it was one frame from a video i did the pressure goes up about 10-15 psi...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 05, 2008, 04:43:57 PM
@grawpSVK
 
Quote
Have somebody already measured the pressure of explosion and implosion through the time.
Are you sure there is an implosion? I saw a video were the person placed a piece of paper in front of a tube containing the plasma discharge and the paper moved forward then backward and it was proposed that there was an "implosion". However what was not considered is that the column of air displaced outward from the tube has mass thus inertia, in some cases the pressurized air will move forward then continue on in excess of its pressure due to inertia producing a vacuum behind it then reverse its direction due to this vacuum. This is the primary process involved in pulse-jet engines and most all impulsive flows in general, so I think this fact should be considered before we state the media has in fact "imploded".
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 05, 2008, 07:09:24 PM
@grawpSVK
 Are you sure there is an implosion? I saw a video were the person placed a piece of paper in front of a tube containing the plasma discharge and the paper moved forward then backward and it was proposed that there was an "implosion". However what was not considered is that the column of air displaced outward from the tube has mass thus inertia, in some cases the pressurized air will move forward then continue on in excess of its pressure due to inertia producing a vacuum behind it then reverse its direction due to this vacuum. This is the primary process involved in pulse-jet engines and most all impulsive flows in general, so I think this fact should be considered before we state the media has in fact "imploded".

Hi allcanadian, you have a good point and it should be considered. The video of the paper moving back and forth is from user qiman who is Aaron at the Energetic Forum.

I will bring your suggestion to his attention.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: McGiver30 on August 06, 2008, 09:33:26 AM
Hey Luc, can you post smw1998a's  schematic from energetic forum? I joined the site couple weeks back and I don't have access to download it yet..
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 06, 2008, 10:13:55 AM
@ Allcanadian.

An Axiom of Chemistry holds that Bond-breaking requires energy and bond-making releases energy.

Vapourization of water.
Water is a polar molecule. Even though is is electrically neutral the electrons are orientated to one side giving it a slightly negative end and a slightly positive end. This causes a bond between the molecules. Cohesion, surface tension and capillary action are all indicative of this bond.
This also accounts for the high boiling point of water. A lot of energy is required to separate this bond and so induce a state change to the vapour phase, from solid to gas. .
When the bond between 2 water molecules is broken some of the heat energy required for the separation is taken away.
This phenomena is experienced with the cooling sensation whilst sweating. Evapouration is the transfer of heat energy to break the bond. The greater the difference of temperature the greater the rate of evapouration.
Liquids have a lower potential energy than gases because the molecules in liquid attract each other. When a molecule of liquid changes state to a gas it gains potential energy from the kinetic energy of other molecules around it. 

Working hypothesis "Cold spark event" from non electrolytic water.

1. the plasma field aligns the electrons
2. the spark imparts electrons to the H20 creates localized heat and separates the molecular bond
3. the water vapourizes and the surrounding heat is absorbed as energy.
4. the vapour reforms
5. sonic shock wave


The chain of events would be (in rapid succession) :-
Explosion event from molecular bond separation, implosion from molecular bond reformation, reformation shock wave.

My pseudo science explanation. Seems watertight to me  :D

Rgds.
D.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 06, 2008, 06:58:05 PM
@Dread
I would agree--but from a different perspective ;)
Quote
Water is a polar molecule. Even though is is electrically neutral the electrons are orientated to one side giving it a slightly negative end and a slightly positive end. This causes a bond between the molecules. Cohesion, surface tension and capillary action are all indicative of this bond.
The polarization due to incoherent field states produces strong interference fields bewteen the two.

Quote
This also accounts for the high boiling point of water. A lot of energy is required to separate this bond and so induce a state change to the vapour phase, from solid to gas. .
When the bond between 2 water molecules is broken some of the heat energy required for the separation is taken away.
Heat is not "something" it is a condition of something, Heat--- a radiation falling within wavelengths at or near what we call infrared wavelengths is energy as oscillations in the media. If these wavelengths should reach an amplitude in which strong interference fields can be overcome the polarization no longer exists. When the size of the fields is reduced so is the inertia thus the rate of oscillation can increase and energy can be absorbed through an increase in velocity due to change in acceleration.

Quote
The greater the difference of temperature the greater the rate of evapouration.
Liquids have a lower potential energy than gases because the molecules in liquid attract each other. When a molecule of liquid changes state to a gas it gains potential energy from the kinetic energy of other molecules around it.

The greater the difference in amplitude of oscillations between two fields the greater the transfer of energy between the two. Kinetic energy is a function of velocity, reduced inertia through decreasing field interactions (not mass) can produce increased rates of change thus energy stored as kinetic energy. Many people understand that Heat is not the only quality of radiation present in any given space there are many spectrums of radiation which could prove useful.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 06, 2008, 08:14:32 PM
Allcanadian,

I agree with your dissection. But in laymans terms what is actually happening currently with the various experiments fits my explanation. Did you also see the temperature reading reports during the spark event, posted by Aaron I think? Seems to confirm. Further proof can be obtained by varying the temperature of the water that is sprayed in relation to an ambient room temperature constant.
As vapour pressure of water varies with temperature, i.e. @ 20 Degrees C it is 2.4kPa @ 100 degrees C it is 101.3 kPa. 
I predict the event will yield more energy, the higher the sprayed water temperature is. Let's gently twist Xbox's arm shall we?

Rgds
D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 06, 2008, 08:47:59 PM
Let's gently twist Xbox's arm shall we?

ROFLMAO!!!!!! So you want HOT water on the gap?? Let me figure out a way to inject the water onto the gap, which is under pressure, first....  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Goat on August 06, 2008, 11:48:33 PM
@ xbox hacker

Just a thought, take the steam output of a espresso coffee machine or other steam generator and plug it in to your jig. Should create pressure and steam at high temperatures, might be worth at try.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 07, 2008, 05:56:55 AM
Hey Luc, can you post smw1998a's  schematic from energetic forum? I joined the site couple weeks back and I don't have access to download it yet..

Hi McGiver30, I have sent a PM to Aaron at the Energetic Forum to ask prior to doing this. He has replied and said he would post a general message to see if anyone would disagrees to this. It may take a few days, so hang in there.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: McGiver30 on August 07, 2008, 07:15:36 AM
thanks alot ..
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 07, 2008, 10:29:22 AM
Xbox,

I just reread your post on the energetic forum, in response to the question of why you started your pressure test at 35 psi. You said that one of your test fires started at 40 psi and went up to 160 psi and I reading that right? If I am, that means that the relationship of pressure on energy output is non linear. Please confirm these results: 35 PSI - 75PSI. 40 PSI - 160 PSI. If this is so, this is VERY significant. In fact this is HUGE. You really need to do more tests with pressure. Sorry to keep loading you with tasks but I am afraid you are a victim of your own success. Here is what I would do / will do.
fire your cannon with water at 50 degrees,  0 PSI and log. Then again at 15 PSI and log. Then again at 30 PSI and log.
Repeat with water at 75 then 100 degrees. You would be able to plot an energy graph that will be so important in the development of working engines, that I believe people will actually model new engines based on your formula.

Rgds
D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 07, 2008, 05:32:00 PM
Hi everyone,

smw1998a of the Energetic Forum has directly sent me his schematics and will continue to do so as development happens. Aaron also agrees I can cross post.

Thank you to both your excellent work and sharing with all.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 07, 2008, 05:55:35 PM
@goat:
I have a steam cleaning thing. It shoots out steam at pressure. I tried it on a plug on the bench....steam did seem to do much. So i droped it.

@Dread:
Quote
Please confirm these results: 35 PSI - 75PSI. 40 PSI - 160 PSI

35psi to 75psi 100% YES, you can see it in the video

40psi to 160psi ....yes... but without video proof and further tests we can not conclude 100% Too many variables
-total chamber pressure
-spark gap size
-spark gap electrode shape (round...point...blunt)
-DC voltage

I need to make a "water injector" for the jig, thats part of the problem for now....



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: JuanDelaTorre on August 07, 2008, 09:44:54 PM
@Dread:
35psi to 75psi 100% YES, you can see it in the video

40psi to 160psi ....yes... but without video proof and further tests we can not conclude 100% Too many variables
-total chamber pressure
-spark gap size
-spark gap electrode shape (round...point...blunt)
-DC voltage

I need to make a "water injector" for the jig, thats part of the problem for now....

@Xbox
After carefully observing your video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He26yOULGu4, I believe that the intake and exhaust valves are NOT needed.

@ all
Intake and exhaust valves are used to bring in fuel and remove exhausted fuel out.  However in our case, we aren?t doing a chemical burn and therefore no fuel needs to be brought in and out.  The expansion of the 35psi to 75psi (thank you Xbox) shows that the cylinder could be closed--I think.  I do not know if the 30-70psi is enough difference to drive a piston down and back up; I will have to test this for myself. 

I surmise that in order to get an ICE to work with plasma and water, these are the steps I have to follow:
1. Close the intake and exhaust values. I have a 3hp B&S lawnmower engine to do this.
2. Have the correct amount of water in the cylinder so as not to ?flood? the spark gap, but enough to agitate the water with the plasma. (For the plasma I will use Cap70?s circuit)
3. Find the correct pressure to drive the piston down and up. Xbox shows that 35psi goes to 70psi, and 40psi goes to 160psi; again, I will have to do experiments to find the proper combination.

Please let me know if my reasoning is correct. I will try this experiment this weekend and post my results.

And please excuse my English.
 
Juan
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 07, 2008, 09:51:03 PM
@Xbox
After carefully observing your video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He26yOULGu4, I believe that the intake and exhaust valves are NOT needed.

Juan

Something similar had crossed my mind!  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 08, 2008, 12:35:54 AM
@Xbox
After carefully observing your video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He26yOULGu4, I believe that the intake and exhaust valves are NOT needed.

@ all
Intake and exhaust valves are used to bring in fuel and remove exhausted fuel out.  However in our case, we aren?t doing a chemical burn and therefore no fuel needs to be brought in and out.  The expansion of the 35psi to 75psi (thank you Xbox) shows that the cylinder could be closed--I think.  I do not know if the 30-70psi is enough difference to drive a piston down and back up; I will have to test this for myself. 

I surmise that in order to get an ICE to work with plasma and water, these are the steps I have to follow:
1. Close the intake and exhaust values. I have a 3hp B&S lawnmower engine to do this.
2. Have the correct amount of water in the cylinder so as not to ?flood? the spark gap, but enough to agitate the water with the plasma. (For the plasma I will use Cap70?s circuit)
3. Find the correct pressure to drive the piston down and up. Xbox shows that 35psi goes to 70psi, and 40psi goes to 160psi; again, I will have to do experiments to find the proper combination.

Please let me know if my reasoning is correct. I will try this experiment this weekend and post my results.

And please excuse my English.
 
Juan

Judging  from  how  fast  the  pressure  goes back up  in the  video   I would say that it probably  will work .

I  think   that it  would have a very narrow  band of  speeds  that  it would work at . ......  the timing  of the  implosion  can't  be  changed much ......

I also  think that  the implosion  effect will be much less  with a hot  engine.


I would  say that   it would be  a really cool   proof of concept   project  ......but I don't think  there would  be anough power  to do much with .   


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 08, 2008, 06:59:33 AM
Hi all,

I am wondering - we have been using a single spark plug designed for easily combustable liquid fuel.
What if with a minor modification, we could actually make the water engine more efective?

In studying the Papp engine it seems to me its a heavily disguised water engine already.

http://www.rexresearch.com/papp/2pappats.htm#4428193 
See Fig 4,5 & 6

Note the size of the "spark plugs" - there are 4 OF THEM. And they are hemispherical.

And they are twice the size of normal spark plugs.

Maybe these are needed to put enough enegry into the water  to maximise the contact area with the water vapour and provide a nice symetric combustion space by bringing the electrical ignitiers close to the piston..............

How to do this:

(1) get an old lawn mower ( a 2 stroke will do for proof of concept at this stage )
(2) Remove the head ( they dont have valves so this is easy )
(3) Buy 3 peices of 1/2 inch steel plates to make a new head - weld the the 3 bits together one of top of each other so you have a 1 1/2 inch thick head.
 (4) Get a drill and drill 2 ( or 4 ) holes and mount a couple of rough hemisphere "spark plugs" - make sure the plugs are out of the way when the piston is at the top of its stroke.
(5) Mount new head on the engine and test.

Since water needs a good nudge to get it to crack, maybe this might be the transfer mechanism we need.

I dont have the mechanical ability to test this, but its worth looking at - even if we replaced the existing head with a single 1/2 steel plate and tap in 4 holes and install 4 standard spark plugs so they all fire at the same time so we have 4 times the energy delivery to the water..

Cheers

Steve.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 08, 2008, 07:04:31 AM
Double post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 08, 2008, 07:09:14 AM
Sorry....double post....... :P
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 08, 2008, 08:06:58 AM
Hi all,

I am wondering - we have been using a single spark plug designed for easily combustable liquid fuel.
What if with a minor modification, we could actually make the water engine more efective?

In studying the Papp engine it seems to me its a heavily disguised water engine already.

http://www.rexresearch.com/papp/2pappats.htm#4428193 
See Fig 4,5 & 6

Note the size of the "spark plugs" - there are 4 OF THEM. And they are hemispherical.

And they are twice the size of normal spark plugs.

Maybe these are needed to put enough enegry into the water  to maximise the contact area with the water vapour and provide a nice symetric combustion space by bringing the electrical ignitiers close to the piston..............

How to do this:

(1) get an old lawn mower ( a 2 stroke will do for proof of concept at this stage )
(2) Remove the head ( they dont have valves so this is easy )
(3) Buy 3 peices of 1/2 inch steel plates to make a new head - weld the the 3 bits together one of top of each other so you have a 1 1/2 inch thick head.
 (4) Get a drill and drill 2 ( or 4 ) holes and mount a couple of rough hemisphere "spark plugs" - make sure the plugs are out of the way when the piston is at the top of its stroke.
(5) Mount new head on the engine and test.

Since water needs a good nudge to get it to crack, maybe this might be the transfer mechanism we need.

I dont have the mechanical ability to test this, but its worth looking at - even if we replaced the existing head with a single 1/2 steel plate and tap in 4 holes and install 4 standard spark plugs so they all fire at the same time so we have 4 times the energy delivery to the water..

Cheers

Steve.

Hi Steve, a topic parallel to this one was started by Tishatang on the Papp engine which can be found here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5154.new;topicseen#new

You are correct in your thinking. 4 weeks ago I started building a clear Lexan engine to test many of these things but I had to put it aside because of a renovation contract. I am now done and back this weekend to continue the building. The engine will not have an intake or exhaust. I should have a video demo at the end of next week.

Stay tuned.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr Magnusson on August 08, 2008, 08:09:44 AM
What about adding some acetone in the water
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 08, 2008, 08:16:25 AM
What about adding some acetone in the water

Hi Mr Magnusson, could you give us an idea or your thinking behind why add acetone to the water.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr Magnusson on August 08, 2008, 08:30:20 AM
Hi luc!

Acetone is hi explosive and it blends 100% with water. Just a thougt.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on August 08, 2008, 09:48:36 AM
Luc and All

Acetone helps in petroleum fuel to breakup the larger molecules for a more complete burn.  In water, it might reduce the surface tension allowing for smaller particle size?  Here is some info from the man who advocates acetone for the past 50 years.

http://www.brightgreen.us/lubedev/smartgas/additive.htm

"The acetone molecule works physically to vigorously shake up every drop of fuel. It acts like an internal vibrator to vibrate each tiny bit of fuel so the fuel fragments do NOT ball up or glue together into large aggregate particles. This important additive guarantees more complete vaporization of fuel inside the combustion chamber where it really matters to defeat surface tension."

This very experienced man does not like water in fuel.  But, he has no idea what we are trying to do.  All his articles are very helpful, and I will apply what I can to improve the mileage of my old Toyota truck until I can get it to run on water.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on August 08, 2008, 03:50:16 PM
Acetone helps in petroleum fuel to breakup the larger molecules for a more complete burn.  In water, it might reduce the surface tension allowing for smaller particle size?  Here is some info from the man who advocates acetone for the past 50 years.

http://www.brightgreen.us/lubedev/smartgas/additive.htm

"The acetone molecule works physically to vigorously shake up every drop of fuel. It acts like an internal vibrator to vibrate each tiny bit of fuel so the fuel fragments do NOT ball up or glue together into large aggregate particles. This important additive guarantees more complete vaporization of fuel inside the combustion chamber where it really matters to defeat surface tension."

This very experienced man does not like water in fuel.  But, he has no idea what we are trying to do.  All his articles are very helpful, and I will apply what I can to improve the mileage of my old Toyota truck until I can get it to run on water.


Actually I had just seen a chemistry show on surfactants. One of the best ones for water is detergents, they had a paper clip floating on water then added detergent and it sunk. It interferes with the molecular bonding of water and is even used to get more oil out of old non-producing oil wells.

I tried it on the Luc setup and it did not appear to help, although it may be better if someone with a high speed video gives it a test.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on August 09, 2008, 10:48:05 AM
To answer 2 questions/comments:

Implosion - yes it implodes when there isn't enough power to make a big enough spark that the Lorentz force accelerates it away from the gap. With plasma ignition experts that I agree with so far from NASA and otherwise, the plasma for a combustion engine in these circumstances will collapse on itself or otherwise called recombination. The plasma is ionized and EXPANDS filling more space. Then if it is still small enough that it is pretty much in that gap area, the free electrons are used for the plasma to "collapse" or "recombine" SHRINKING in volume. That is a vacuum/implosion. Also, my pipe demo...you will get the exact same result with a hex nut around the ground threads on the plug with the depth of the nut barely extending past the ground strap...you will get the same suction effect with the paper. With or without this test, it is a KNOWN variable that the plasma will collapse and recombine rapidly shrinking in volume. If you do not want it to shrink in volume but want it to be able to eject away from the electrodes outwards, you can do it how I did it. Anyway, I posted a few pics in my water spark plug thread...you can see the ejections with and without water.

As a side note...the smaller power blasts that you will see and especially at high frequency, the plasma ball hands just right inside the gap. It is held there by thermionic emissions from the plug metal itself from the current that heated it up. Those are what provide extra electrons, etc... for the plasma to collapse, etc... and are responsible for plug wear because the same parts of the metal take the beating over and over but this doesn't happen if you use enough power to get the plasma to eject from the plug.

Temperature - yes, the plasma is a cold phenomena but when pumping enough joules in a short enough period of time from the low voltage source at a high enough frequency, the plug will get hot. Not from the plasma, from the current. Those 1 cycle per second or so shots I did in my video was enough space in between each pulse and at low enough power, it never heated up...even with 20+cps, never heated. Using my booster cap method and getting fully ejected plasma bursts outwards from the plug, you will make the plug hot..again..not from the plasma...from the current.

This is the video of where the pics came from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PGs2Tq_Vfg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 10, 2008, 07:29:32 AM
Thanks Aaron for posting the extra information on the implosion and also your new video which looks great ;).

@everyone, smw1998a has just sent me his Logic circuit.

Luc


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on August 10, 2008, 05:17:03 PM
I'm doing some pressure experiments with Luc's circuit. I recently shorted out my coil primary. Is it a problem feeding a coil 140+ volts when it's designed for 12-14? How can I protect it?

Thanks,

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 10, 2008, 07:07:26 PM
I'm doing some pressure experiments with Luc's circuit. I recently shorted out my coil primary. Is it a problem feeding a coil 140+ volts when it's designed for 12-14? How can I protect it?

Thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave, I am doing experiments on this at this time and have found that pulsing DC voltage of higher than 48 volts gives no added benefits to secondary output coil. 140 volts would be kind of high but I think but the primary should be able to take it if you are pulsing the DC and have the ability to adjust pulse duration.

I will be posting a new video of a few thing that I have been doing in the next day or so.

Stay tuned.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 10, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
@everyone, smw1998a has sent me this addition.

Hi Luc,
A recent addition..

Posted on energetic forum.

Hello All,
Time has caught me again as I have none! I will try and draw the logic circuit schematic tomorrow. Until then, I will just try and explain what it is. The circuit was built for a different purpose, like the charge pump circuit. I just cobbled it in and adjusted it to suit my needs.

The heart of the circuit is a CMOS 4017 decade counter. When the decade counter receives a suitable clock signal each of the ten outputs switches from low to high in sequence and then starts over. These little chips are great for ?Night Rider? type sweeping LED?s etc. The clock signal for this circuit is generated by a CMOS 4047B monostable/astable IC.

What I wanted from the circuit was a means to switch on the charge pump circuit to charge the capacitor for a set time. Then, to switch off the charge pump and initiate the capacitor discharge. At it?s most basic level, the logic circuit?s output is nothing more than a square wave with a fixed 90% duty cycle regardless of frequency.

The third IC is a CMOS 4001 quad two input nor. Two of the nor gates on this chip are configured as a set/reset flip flop. The output of the flip flop goes to pin 4 of the section a timer in the charge pump circuit. The first output ?A? of the decade counter sets the flip flop and this sends pin 4 of the section A timer high, switching on the charge pump circuit. Output pin ?I? on the decade counter resets the flip flop sending the output to pin 4 low, switching off the charge pump. Output pin ?J? provides the pause between charge pump cycles. Hence, the 90% duty cycle.

Output pin ?I? of the decade counter is also connected to an edge triggered monostable. The purpose of the monostable is to light the LED in the H11D1 IC and thus triggering the capacitor discharge. When the output from pin ?I? goes from high to low the monostable lights the Led for the time dictated by its RC components.

Frequency is controlled by the potentiometer in the 4047B?s RC network. Because of the decade counter the duty cycle of the charge pump is always 90% and the edge triggered monostable driving the LED in the H11D1 ensures that the pulse duration is not affected by adjustments to the frequency of the main logic circuit.

As circuits go, it?s not as complicated as it looks and the components are cheap and easily obtained.

All The Best Lee?

Wavorms attached.

Regards Lee....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on August 10, 2008, 11:49:26 PM
Thanks for the reply Luc.
I'm using your suggestion of 120 main AC thru a bridge rec charging a 100-150 uf cap. It charges to 160 and when the switch is released, dumps to the coil. Should I use a stepdown xmfr to a lesser voltage? ( sorry my electronics are a bit rusty)

Dave

(I tried a 820 uf cap...one hellava spark!)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 11, 2008, 12:47:20 AM
Thanks for the reply Luc.
I'm using your suggestion of 120 main AC thru a bridge rec charging a 100-150 uf cap. It charges to 160 and when the switch is released, dumps to the coil. Should I use a stepdown xmfr to a lesser voltage? ( sorry my electronics are a bit rusty)

Dave

(I tried a 820 uf cap...one hellava spark!)

Hi Dave, I see now, I wasn't understanding what you were doing ::) so, yes that is the correct way if you use my basic circuit (100-150 uf cap charged to 160 vdc) . 820uf :o wow that must have kick :D, never tried that large, I want to save my ears.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 11, 2008, 03:56:15 PM
@everyone,

please have a look at a new video that I just uploaded on youtube.

It is a test to replicate and observe the basic effect of the Robert Krupa Firestorm style spark plug.

I will write more about the tests a little later.

Luc

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPu7AI50w
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: SPP-48 on August 11, 2008, 04:35:41 PM
Firstly thanks to Luc for coming up with this thread and then to the others for developing the idea further.

I really enjoyed building something that actually worked for a change.

I believe I have successfully replicated Luc's and Ossie's circuits and have been able to get consistently good sparks, and louder ones with water mist.

The salt water (or potassium hydroxide) circuit from Ossie gave the best spark. I then built a cylinder out of a clear 1" diameter plastic tube and using conductive water was able to blow a small foam plug out about 2metres (6'). The spark gap was fed with a syringe, 1 drop per spark explosion.

There is obviously not enough force to move anything heavier like a metal cylinder, so I went searching on the net and came across this Tesla circuit which shows a spark powered piston /cylinder arrangement. Obviously the experts amongst you must have come across this before. I was wondering if anyone has tried building it, and if there is any information regarding coil and capacitor specs.

I have also attached some pictures of my replications for your information.

Cheers

Sam
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 11, 2008, 05:02:17 PM
Firstly thanks to Luc for coming up with this thread and then to the others for developing the idea further.

I really enjoyed building something that actually worked for a change.

I believe I have successfully replicated Luc's and Ossie's circuits and have been able to get consistently good sparks, and louder ones with water mist.

The salt water (or potassium hydroxide) circuit from Ossie gave the best spark. I then built a cylinder out of a clear 1" diameter plastic tube and using conductive water was able to blow a small foam plug out about 2metres (6'). The spark gap was fed with a syringe, 1 drop per spark explosion.

There is obviously not enough force to move anything heavier like a metal cylinder, so I went searching on the net and came across this Tesla circuit which shows a spark powered piston /cylinder arrangement. Obviously the experts amongst you must have come across this before. I was wondering if anyone has tried building it, and if there is any information regarding coil and capacitor specs.

I have also attached some pictures of my replications for your information.

Cheers

Sam

Most excellent work Sam!... I'm sure Ossie would also be happy to see such a good replication and testing ideas with pictures and all.

Also, thank you for bringing this Tesla design to our attention. I is the first time I see it. I will ask user allcanadian if he could look at it for us and give his Tesla knowledge and opinion.

Keep up the great work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on August 11, 2008, 05:29:09 PM
@ Sam
Is it possible for you to "hang" (hold on to) this drop of water .... and place it into the radius of the plasma effect?
I've been very curious to know the explosive effect with this much water available to the plasma
without "drenching" or simply "wetting" the electrodes.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 11, 2008, 06:39:16 PM
@SPP-48
Your circuit diagram is Tesla Patent 609250 which is quite different from conventional ignition circuits. Tesla utilizes a self induction coil (H) to charge capacitor (G) when contacts (a,b) are opened.What is not readily apparent is that when contacts (a,b) are closed there are two series circuits present---- one consisting of capacitor G, self inductance coil H and the source battery. The other series circuit consisting of capacitor G, primary F and contacts a,b. If the coil H were to have a high self inductance and the capacitor G a small capacity then G could be charged to very high voltages prior to discharging through primary F where it is stepped up yet again through K. We should also consider the difference between charging capacitor G with the source current alone versus an inductive discharge current from self inductance coil H. Tesla and T.H Moray made statements regarding the fact that if a resilient medium were disrupted in some way this medium could produce oscillations and we assumed they were making reference to qualities inherent in LC circuits. But if we considered capacitor G as having properties of oscillation within itself and without (external field interactions) as if an electrostatically charged drum skin were struck then discharged we could see these internal oscillations would travel within the discharging current and effect the qualities of the current .
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: SPP-48 on August 11, 2008, 06:48:33 PM
@goldenequity

Good idea.
I can let the drop hang just above the electrodes and set off the spark using Luc's circuit.
I will try that tomorrow.

Sam
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: SPP-48 on August 11, 2008, 07:04:44 PM
@allcanadian

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It sounds as if it may be worth pursuing further. I am not an electronics person, so if anyone could translate Tesla's diagram into a circuit using available components and specs I would be happy to build it. If we can increase the spark + add water we may progress further.

Cheers

Sam
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on August 11, 2008, 08:17:05 PM
@ Sam
Thanks for considering the idea!
@ All
here is a link to an Ebay auction of SS micro tubing which could be useful for bench testing water setups for "drops" or steam/mist etc.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-steel-tiny-tubing-hypodermic-size-032-inch_W0QQitemZ250278738466QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250278738466&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: somamagus on August 11, 2008, 08:21:54 PM
@xbox
@luc
@Cap70
@ALL THE REST

I came across this?..

The mysterious gasoline engine that does not absorb the fuel

"................one other point that is of interest and which correlates with this file, a story told by John Searl to Rueben Joswiak when several of us went to the 94' Tesla Symposium in Colorado Springs. John told Rueben that an inventor in England had discovered a way to use a small quantity of gasoline in an engine evacuated of air, for years without 'consuming' the gasoline. As Rueben recounted it, the gasoline was sprayed as a fine mist into the combustion chamber, then subjected to a 30,000 volt spark. This would make the gasoline mist violently separate, causing the piston to be pushed away. The gas would then be collected and recombined to be reinjected into the chamber again and again. John said the inventor had been put under a secrecy order and eventually died in a mysterious fashion. We found this an intriguing idea at the time because if the gasoline had not been consumed by the presence of oxygen and other gases, then what would cause it to burn? So what would prevent it being reused as claimed? If Rogers machine works as he claims, despite the disbelief of many, then this might also work."

Petar
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 12:58:21 AM
@SPP-48
Your circuit diagram is Tesla Patent 609250 which is quite different from conventional ignition circuits. Tesla utilizes a self induction coil (H) to charge capacitor (G) when contacts (a,b) are opened.What is not readily apparent is that when contacts (a,b) are closed there are two series circuits present---- one consisting of capacitor G, self inductance coil H and the source battery. The other series circuit consisting of capacitor G, primary F and contacts a,b. If the coil H were to have a high self inductance and the capacitor G a small capacity then G could be charged to very high voltages prior to discharging through primary F where it is stepped up yet again through K. We should also consider the difference between charging capacitor G with the source current alone versus an inductive discharge current from self inductance coil H. Tesla and T.H Moray made statements regarding the fact that if a resilient medium were disrupted in some way this medium could produce oscillations and we assumed they were making reference to qualities inherent in LC circuits. But if we considered capacitor G as having properties of oscillation within itself and without (external field interactions) as if an electrostatically charged drum skin were struck then discharged we could see these internal oscillations would travel within the discharging current and effect the qualities of the current .

Please elaborate.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 12, 2008, 06:04:46 AM
@SPP-48
Your circuit diagram is Tesla Patent 609250 which is quite different from conventional ignition circuits. Tesla utilizes a self induction coil (H) to charge capacitor (G) when contacts (a,b) are opened.What is not readily apparent is that when contacts (a,b) are closed there are two series circuits present---- one consisting of capacitor G, self inductance coil H and the source battery. The other series circuit consisting of capacitor G, primary F and contacts a,b. If the coil H were to have a high self inductance and the capacitor G a small capacity then G could be charged to very high voltages prior to discharging through primary F where it is stepped up yet again through K. We should also consider the difference between charging capacitor G with the source current alone versus an inductive discharge current from self inductance coil H. Tesla and T.H Moray made statements regarding the fact that if a resilient medium were disrupted in some way this medium could produce oscillations and we assumed they were making reference to qualities inherent in LC circuits. But if we considered capacitor G as having properties of oscillation within itself and without (external field interactions) as if an electrostatically charged drum skin were struck then discharged we could see these internal oscillations would travel within the discharging current and effect the qualities of the current .

Thank you allcanadian for your time and explanation of what is going on in this circuit.

Would you know what the purpose of d, C , B , A and L (as circled below) are doing in this circuit ???

Thank you

Luc

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 12, 2008, 06:38:51 AM
@ everyone,

please have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u0SZt0h43w

It looks to me like he is using the Water Power circuit. He is running Diesel Fuel in a Gas motor and claims no smoke output. Read his comment below.

Luc

In my first application on plasma spark ignition ; I'm using diesel fuel on gasoline genset by using plasma spark from 47 uF 250 Volt. It was still bad setup that I have, but good progress because no smoke out from exhaust. Later, I will introduce water in the carb.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 12, 2008, 06:59:16 AM
@Grumpy
Quote
Please elaborate.
I take it you are refering to the qualities of oscillation?
If an electric current should act as an incompressible fluid as they say it does then an electric current would have similar properties to water in a pipe. If we push in one litre of water on one end then at the same instant one litre of water comes out the other end, we could call this a direct current as current flows in every space equally in one direction. Also if we were to place a rubber membrane across this water pipe we could say it could act like a capacitance in that it does not necessarily store a water current any more than a capacitor could store an electric current, the capacitor would store a quantity of the medium under consideration as pressure. In this case if an electric current were the medium considered we can see in AC,DC or pulsed DC all oscillations are limited to the movement of the current flow in every sense. If however in the water pipe analogy we used a very resilient membrane, the equivalent of a small capacitance it should be obvious that almost no current could pass, it should also be obvious that waves such as sound waves in the water would pass through the membrane quite easily as we are speaking of pressure waves of considerable frequency not current flow. We should note that Nicola Tesla also mentions the fact that his longintudinal waves are very similar to sound waves in the media ;)
Now what would happen if this small capacitance were to recieve a disturbance of the proper qualities such as a high potential inductive discharge in which an electrical pressure was stored in the capacitor and in the same instant a pressure wave travelled through the capacitor around the circuit and what would happen if this capacitor were discharged while these standing pressure waves were still active? It should be remembered that the pressure wave could be seen as compressions and expansions "within" the media and the current flow is the media itself in motion, as such if the media should move the pressure wave within must move with it and any velocity limitation applied to the media may not apply to the pressure wave as both are in motion. The pressure wave would also have very little or no resistance as resistance is only relative to motion of the media to be considered. I have every reason to believe we are dealing with the equivalent of electrical sound waves within the waves we know of.
Best Regards
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 12, 2008, 09:23:27 AM
@Luc,

Thanks for posting the video by -revizal- ....I  e-mailed him, he says if he doesn't have luck running his motor on 100% water, then he will install the plasma ignition circuit on one of his GEET motors.........

Thanks again,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: SPP-48 on August 12, 2008, 11:42:23 AM
@ Sam
Is it possible for you to "hang" (hold on to) this drop of water .... and place it into the radius of the plasma effect?
I've been very curious to know the explosive effect with this much water available to the plasma
without "drenching" or simply "wetting" the electrodes.


@goldenequity

I ran the water droplet test as you suggested. The results were not promising, although still interesting. I was not able to use the spark plug as the droplet could not get close enough without jumping to the electrodes. I used tungsten electrodes with a wider gap. Using distilled water.

I have attached a small video taken with my still camera, so the quality is poor and was not able to show the true intensity of the spark. The video was edited to show only the spark action.

The first spark is with no water, then the droplet, and finally a water mist spray which seems to be the most effective in increasing the spark size and noise.

It is interesting to see how the spark is affecting the droplet, without exploding it. It is obviously an issue of scale. The droplet was too big. In the end, the motion created by the spark caused it to fall. This seems to confirm that misting, or fogging is best.

Cheers

Sam

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: peteroks on August 12, 2008, 12:17:30 PM
Hi here is a link to some plugs on the market that use a high voltage capacitor built into the plug /boot cap ,that is inline with the way a water plug may develop . see http://www.directhits.com/howitworks.html (http://www.directhits.com/howitworks.html)--------- Peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 03:16:26 PM
@Grumpy, I take it you are refering to the qualities of oscillation?

Reading the patent, it's quite simple with no references to anything out of the ordinary.  A large part of the patent deals with the commutation method in which the contacts are connected to the connecting rod so as to be activiated by the movement of the piston. 

Where is the oscillation? - the circuit is just charged and discharged.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 12, 2008, 04:54:35 PM
@Grumpy
Quote
Reading the patent, it's quite simple with no references to anything out of the ordinary.  A large part of the patent deals with the commutation method in which the contacts are connected to the connecting rod so as to be activiated by the movement of the piston. 
Where is the oscillation? - the circuit is just charged and discharged.
I think you know as well as I do that a good patent lawyer will protect the spirit of an invention while giving very little in the way of understaning to the layman nor those "skilled in the art". If you look at the patent you will find a self inductance coil H charging a capacitor, the capacitor is then discharged through the short primary of a step-up transformer. This is Teslas "method of conversion" and you will see it in more than a few of Teslas patents if you know what to look for. If this is indeed just another ignition transformer why use the self inductance coil H -- it is not needed.
As well if we look at Gotoluc and quimans circuits you will find a "resilient" media in the circuit in the form of both a capacitor and the blocking diodes. The HV section of the ignition coil will see the low potential path to the capacitor and move towards it then the diodes slam closed producing a high potential short wave period shock wave on the capacitor, the capacitor then discharges through the only other route----the spark gap. Here we can use a simple analogy---- strike a drum and hold the striker on the drum (DC current)and there are very few oscillations, but if we strike the drum and quickly remove the striker the oscillations will continue. In my experiments with gotoluc's circuit I have produced discharges having qualities I have never seen before, the discharge is a brilliant white with a volume and length many times greater than the capacitor itself could ever seem to produce. The question I think we should be asking is what process has changed the qualities of the discharge and how can we improve this process?.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 12, 2008, 05:24:20 PM
@Gotoluc
Quote
Thank you allcanadian for your time and explanation of what is going on in this circuit.
Would you know what the purpose of d, C , B , A and L (as circled below) are doing in this circuit

(ab) are contact brushes
(c) copper contact ring-closes circuit
(d) insulators
(C) is a piston rod
(B) is a piston
(L) is a HV igniter electrode
The questions one should ask are what exactly is ignited? where are the intake/exhaust valves?----it seems there is no means whatsoever for anything to enter or exit the sealed chamber?
If I have any advice to give I would recommend ignoring what you "see" and concentrate on the qualities of the components, what is there function? How do they apply in the circuit? How does this circuit relate to the one you posted?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 05:25:44 PM
@GrumpyI think you know as well as I do that a good patent lawyer will protect the spirit of an invention while giving very little in the way of understaning to the layman nor those "skilled in the art". If you look at the patent you will find a self inductance coil H charging a capacitor, the capacitor is then discharged through the short primary of a step-up transformer. This is Teslas "method of conversion" and you will see it in more than a few of Teslas patents if you know what to look for. If this is indeed just another ignition transformer why use the self inductance coil H -- it is not needed.
As well if we look at Gotoluc and quimans circuits you will find a "resilient" media in the circuit in the form of both a capacitor and the blocking diodes. The HV section of the ignition coil will see the low potential path to the capacitor and move towards it then the diodes slam closed producing a high potential short wave period shock wave on the capacitor, the capacitor then discharges through the only other route----the spark gap. Here we can use a simple analogy---- strike a drum and hold the striker on the drum (DC current)and there are very few oscillations, but if we strike the drum and quickly remove the striker the oscillations will continue. In my experiments with gotoluc's circuit I have produced discharges having qualities I have never seen before, the discharge is a brilliant white with a volume and length many times greater than the capacitor itself could ever seem to produce. The question I think we should be asking is what process has changed the qualities of the discharge and how can we improve this process?.

LOL!  Just coaxing you to say it out loud, Allcanadian.

The little thing that no one ever seems to notice is that the hv is biased above zero in these devices.  Increase the bias - increase the effect.

On this page is are some interesting comments made by Tesla when he was about 60 years of age and had accomplished many things - about 3/4 of the way down the page:

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm

Counsel

I understood a little while ago when you made the statement of using several thousand horsepower put into a condenser, you could take out of the condenser a million horsepower.  I wondered if you got the same condition with this machine.

Tesla

Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts.  When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation.  Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts.  Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 104)2, and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000.  You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower.

Quote
Counsel

What I wanted to get at was, did that depend upon the suddenness of the discharge?

Tesla  

Yes.  It is merely the electrical analogue of a pile driver or a hammer.  You accumulate energy through a long distance and then you deliver it with a tremendous suddenness.  The distance through which the mass moves is small?the pressure immense.

Counsel  

Did you find that that was the best condition for transmitting energy without the use of wire?

Tesla  

No, I did not use that method when I was transmitting energy.  I used it only in the production of those freaks for which I have been called a magician.  If I had used merely undamped waves, I would have been an ordinary electrician like everybody else.


The pile-driver is a reference to unidirectional impulses.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on August 12, 2008, 05:30:58 PM
Maybe an idea to use this:
http://www.security-discount.com/product_info.php/info/p25_750-000-Volt-stun-gun-br----batteries---defence-spray.html
 :P
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: SPP-48 on August 12, 2008, 06:41:31 PM
@allcanadian
@Grumpy

Thanks for your input guys. I would like to try this Tesla patent.
Attached is my translation into a circuit for testing.
Any suggestions for component values would be appreciated.

Cheers

Sam

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 07:14:04 PM
Well, acording to the patent, the inductor is charged on the first contact make, and then the capacitor is discharged on the second contact break. 

Just use a cap that can handle the inductor discharge which depends on the inductor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 12, 2008, 07:22:27 PM
The questions one should ask are what exactly is ignited? where are the intake/exhaust valves?----it seems there is no means whatsoever for anything to enter or exit the sealed chamber?
If I have any advice to give I would recommend ignoring what you "see" and concentrate on the qualities of the components, what is there function? How do they apply in the circuit? How does this circuit relate to the one you posted?

Thank you once again allcanadian ;)...Yes :D, that would of been my next question ;D, but I think there is nothing that we know of as fuel that is needed here. Hey!...could it be an Atomic cumbustion engine ::) nah :P couldn't be that simple ;D or could it :o

Let us think this one through.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 07:47:29 PM
If you read the patent, Tesla syas he left out the other engine components becuase they were not necessary to explain the operation of the ignition circuit, and he says gas or explosive mixture several times.

Are we sure there is more here than just a means to ignite a hydrocarbon fuel in a combustion engine?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 12, 2008, 07:55:09 PM
@everyone,

below (in blue) is a copy of a post I made at the Energetic Forum (Water Sparkplug Topic): http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug-16.html

@Peter Lindemann and Aaron, great work and testing on the gas engine. To see you can lean down the engine to the carburetors max shows very promising results to make ICE much more efficient. This is what Robert Krupa (Firestom Spark Plug) has also found that he could actually Lean Down an ICE during testing of his plugs (with special coil and driver) down to 30:1 and the exhaust temperature would also go down. Please listen to his most recent (June 2nd 2008) interview: http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/shows/show_207413.mp3
I think what we have here is great since we are starting to see the same effects as he has found but with a much simpler circuit, a stock coil and standard Spark Plug. This is why I was testing his Spark Plug concept!... to see if it had any benefit with our effect. I found none what so ever. The spark finds a single shortest point and does a discharge just like a standard Plug. That is why Krupa talks about a driver and a big coil is needed to make his Firestorm Plug work. It will only spark at multiple points when the coil is pulsed at high speed. That is what I found in my tests. So anyone who is thinking if only I had Krupa's Firestorm Spark Plugs in my engine I would get better economy is dreaming . They would do just like a standard plug (one spark) if you do not have a high Performance coil and coil driver. So with all this said, I think we have something big here and we should all focus on testing and developing this further.

I really like the idea YouTube user revizal had, trying Diesel on a gas engine (which should not work under normal circumstances) and the fact that he says the Exhaust had no smoke shows that we have found a very useful use for the circuit. As you know Diesel has a higher energy content than gas so it would require less fuel.

Last night I was telling my friend Rick Price that I was going to start testing on my lawn mower engine with gas fumes and water moisture.
To get gas fumes, I would use a large container stuffed with stainless steel pot scrubbers or you can use a large flat air filter to have the gas contact over a large surface area which will greatly increase the gas to change to vapor. The container would have an adjustable intake and an output tube to the carburetor. For the water moisture I have a cold vapor ultrasonic humidifier that I'll use for that. I will test to find the best blend of the two. We can also test with sending the exhaust back in the input just like the GEET system.

I am very hopeful that together we will find a much more Efficient way to make an ICE work with this circuit and finding the best blend of capacitor size with fuel and water ratio.

I'm very happy with all the great work everyone has contributed.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 08:06:54 PM
So, no one is getting the "S1R effect" yet?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 12, 2008, 08:21:38 PM
So, no one is getting the "S1R effect" yet?

Nope! not that I am aware of.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 12, 2008, 08:27:55 PM
@All,

Xbox hacker is using a marine plug, "Champion L76V"....... He says it fires 3 x faster than a normal plug, plus it doesn't have the normal "L" electrode........It sparks in a 360 radius.......I found one at Wal-mart on clearance for $2.00......

regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Grumpy on August 12, 2008, 09:21:54 PM
So, looking at the original S1R sketches:

It looks like he is just switching the half-wave 110 and the ignition spark through the relay contacts at the same time - same direction.

Where does that wierd coil fit in?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: go-blue on August 12, 2008, 09:47:15 PM
@everyone,

below (in blue) is a copy of a post I made at the Energetic Forum (Water Sparkplug Topic): http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug-16.html

@Peter Lindemann and Aaron, great work and testing on the gas engine. To see you can lean down the engine to the carburetors max shows very promising results to make ICE much more efficient. This is what Robert Krupa (Firestom Spark Plug) has also found that he could actually Lean Down an ICE during testing of his plugs (with special coil and driver) down to 30:1 and the exhaust temperature would also go down. Please listen to his most recent (June 2nd 2008) interview: http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/shows/show_207413.mp3
I think what we have here is great since we are starting to see the same effects as he has found but with a much simpler circuit, a stock coil and standard Spark Plug. This is why I was testing his Spark Plug concept!... to see if it had any benefit with our effect. I found none what so ever. The spark finds a single shortest point and does a discharge just like a standard Plug. That is why Krupa talks about a driver and a big coil is needed to make his Firestorm Plug work. It will only spark at multiple points when the coil is pulsed at high speed. That is what I found in my tests. So anyone who is thinking if only I had Krupa's Firestorm Spark Plugs in my engine I would get better economy is dreaming . They would do just like a standard plug (one spark) if you do not have a high Performance coil and coil driver. So with all this said, I think we have something big here and we should all focus on testing and developing this further.

I really like the idea YouTube user revizal had, trying Diesel on a gas engine (which should not work under normal circumstances) and the fact that he says the Exhaust had no smoke shows that we have found a very useful use for the circuit. As you know Diesel has a higher energy content than gas so it would require less fuel.

Last night I was telling my friend Rick Price that I was going to start testing on my lawn mower engine with gas fumes and water moisture.
To get gas fumes, I would use a large container stuffed with stainless steel pot scrubbers or you can use a large flat air filter to have the gas contact over a large surface area which will greatly increase the gas to change to vapor. The container would have an adjustable intake and an output tube to the carburetor. For the water moisture I have a cold vapor ultrasonic humidifier that I'll use for that. I will test to find the best blend of the two. We can also test with sending the exhaust back in the input just like the GEET system.

I am very hopeful that together we will find a much more Efficient way to make an ICE work with this circuit and finding the best blend of capacitor size with fuel and water ratio.

I'm very happy with all the great work everyone has contributed.

Luc


Is there a transcript available for this broadcast?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: go-blue on August 12, 2008, 09:51:47 PM
@ everyone,

please have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u0SZt0h43w

It looks to me like he is using the Water Power circuit. He is running Diesel Fuel in a Gas motor and claims no smoke output. Read his comment below.

Luc

In my first application on plasma spark ignition ; I'm using diesel fuel on gasoline genset by using plasma spark from 47 uF 250 Volt. It was still bad setup that I have, but good progress because no smoke out from exhaust. Later, I will introduce water in the carb.

Is he taking note of the waste spark on the intake stroke. It may be causing the rough idle. A regular car ICE wouldn't have that waste spark getting in the way.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 13, 2008, 01:47:15 AM
Is he taking note of the waste spark on the intake stroke. It may be causing the rough idle. A regular car ICE wouldn't have that waste spark getting in the way.

I would strongly doubt that he is removing it. You can send him a message on youtube and ask.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 13, 2008, 01:50:42 AM

Is there a transcript available for this broadcast?

Could be but I don't have it. Do some Google search.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 13, 2008, 01:53:19 AM
So, looking at the original S1R sketches:

It looks like he is just switching the half-wave 110 and the ignition spark through the relay contacts at the same time - same direction.

Where does that wierd coil fit in?

The weird coil is suppose to be a complete replacement for the relays.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on August 13, 2008, 03:43:26 AM
@goldenequity

I ran the water droplet test as you suggested. The results were not promising, although still interesting. I was not able to use the spark plug as the droplet could not get close enough without jumping to the electrodes. I used tungsten electrodes with a wider gap. Using distilled water.

I have attached a small video taken with my still camera, so the quality is poor and was not able to show the true intensity of the spark. The video was edited to show only the spark action.

The first spark is with no water, then the droplet, and finally a water mist spray which seems to be the most effective in increasing the spark size and noise.

It is interesting to see how the spark is affecting the droplet, without exploding it. It is obviously an issue of scale. The droplet was too big. In the end, the motion created by the spark caused it to fall. This seems to confirm that misting, or fogging is best.

Cheers

Sam
Thanks Sam..... even 1 Drop is alot .... true!  Thanks for the attempt  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on August 13, 2008, 09:02:48 AM
gotoluc,

Tried to post this to you at the energetic forum - water sparkplug thread for all to see, but it must take awhile for new accounts to be activated with priveledges. Maybe this will be of assistance?
RIDICULOUSLY SENSITIVE
ELECTRIC CHARGE DETECTOR
http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html
This simple circuit can detect the invisible fields of voltage which surround all electrified objects. It acts as an electronic "electroscope."

Keep up the good work!

IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 13, 2008, 04:46:39 PM
gotoluc,

Tried to post this to you at the energetic forum - water sparkplug thread for all to see, but it must take awhile for new accounts to be activated with priveledges. Maybe this will be of assistance?
RIDICULOUSLY SENSITIVE
ELECTRIC CHARGE DETECTOR
http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html
This simple circuit can detect the invisible fields of voltage which surround all electrified objects. It acts as an electronic "electroscope."

Keep up the good work!

IndianaBoys

Thanks IndianaBoys for posting this simple test circuit. I will also post it at the Energetic Forum for you.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 13, 2008, 06:11:22 PM
@Grumpy
Quote
If you read the patent, Tesla syas he left out the other engine components becuase they were not necessary to explain the operation of the ignition circuit, and he says gas or explosive mixture several times.
LOL, I can't sneak anything by you ;D I wonder how many people read the patent?

@IndianaBoys
I have been using the RIDICULOUSLY SENSITIVE ELECTRIC CHARGE DETECTOR from Bill Beatys website for quite a few years now, I think this circuit is as important as my oscilloscope and multimeter. If you connect your oscilloscope across the LED you can get a better indication of what the electric fields are doing.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kalnai on August 14, 2008, 02:14:43 AM
Anyone tried to just remove the earth (ground) electrode from the sparkplug and let it fire in a circle like a halo plug (or marine plug) with this plasma circuit? 

Also, has anyone tried this plasma ignition in an engine with gasoline as normal.  Does it improve mpg or increase power--  as Krupa says?  I would like to run my car with water, but for now, I'll settle for improved performance using gasoline.  I'm able to lean my fuel / air ratio - > disconnect both O2 sensors and then put a variable resistor on the intake air temp. sensor.  Anyone have circuit for a multi-cylinder?

I agree with Luc, I think that firestorm plugs are more about the "electronics" than the plugs themselves other than for long life ->( fire around different points on the ball -> normal plug electrode would wear (burn) away too fast).  Do we have any specifics as to the volts, current, (maybe even component names) or anything that Krupa uses to fire his plugs?

thanks,
needful
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 14, 2008, 05:28:28 AM
Anyone tried to just remove the earth (ground) electrode from the sparkplug and let it fire in a circle like a halo plug (or marine plug) with this plasma circuit? 

Also, has anyone tried this plasma ignition in an engine with gasoline as normal.  Does it improve mpg or increase power--  as Krupa says?  I would like to run my car with water, but for now, I'll settle for improved performance using gasoline.  I'm able to lean my fuel / air ratio - > disconnect both O2 sensors and then put a variable resistor on the intake air temp. sensor.  Anyone have circuit for a multi-cylinder?

I agree with Luc, I think that firestorm plugs are more about the "electronics" than the plugs themselves other than for long life ->( fire around different points on the ball -> normal plug electrode would wear (burn) away too fast).  Do we have any specifics as to the volts, current, (maybe even component names) or anything that Krupa uses to fire his plugs?

thanks,
needful

Hi kalnai, thanks for your input. To answer your first question, yes I have a spark plug that I cut off the J electrode with my grinder and also cut the center anode so electrode ring and anode are at the same height. It make a wide spark gap and works well. Also if I use my coil pulse circuit that I used for the Krupa video I can get multiple arks sometimes going in a rotating fashion.

At this present time Peter Lindemann and Aaron are doing just that! using the circuit on a gas lawn mower engine. You can read (with limited access) the topic here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug-16.html

Did you not see my post above?: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg120917.html#msg120917

It should answer most of the questions you are asking.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: peteroks on August 14, 2008, 08:59:12 AM
Hi peter here
I have taken on the plasma arc project now .Though im new here i have looked into most of your results and your progress is great. For me i have built a lv circuit and a hv circuit and am about to join them to gether i liken the hv setup to lightning ond the lv to thunder ,both have been around since the dawn of time so it is about time we used them.pleses note there is an interesting post over at waterfuel1978 for a guy who lives near s1r and has personally visited him and his car , the best part is he is an engineer and will be trying to communicate to all in understandable english what s1r has done, see his recent posts in the messages section.he mentions s1rs coil and resonance and compares it to meyers VIC , THEN BRINGS IN A NEW TERM ELECTRON AVALANCHE - more options
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 14, 2008, 06:15:20 PM
Hi peter here
I have taken on the plasma arc project now .Though im new here i have looked into most of your results and your progress is great. For me i have built a lv circuit and a hv circuit and am about to join them to gether i liken the hv setup to lightning ond the lv to thunder ,both have been around since the dawn of time so it is about time we used them.pleses note there is an interesting post over at waterfuel1978 for a guy who lives near s1r and has personally visited him and his car , the best part is he is an engineer and will be trying to communicate to all in understandable english what s1r has done, see his recent posts in the messages section.he mentions s1rs coil and resonance and compares it to meyers VIC , THEN BRINGS IN A NEW TERM ELECTRON AVALANCHE - more options

Hi Peter, welcome :D. You are correct to use the lightning and thunder comparison. Even before finding this simple circuit I thought that's what was going on in S1R's system.

At this time the circuit we have is not capable of making a ICE run on water alone so we have now started testing with adding fuel and as you can see from the posts above we are getting some results that would not normally work on a stock ICE.

Thanks for bringing up the engineer who is visiting S1R since I have not been to the waterfuel1978 site since I started this topic. Please keep us informed if something successful comes up out of this. Electron avalanche is a good term to use ;D

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 14, 2008, 06:34:58 PM
Do we have any specifics as to the volts, current, (maybe even component names) or anything that Krupa uses to fire his plugs?

thanks,
needful

kalnai, I don't have that information wet!... but I do have on order the most powerful coil that MSD makes and once I receive that and do some tests I should have some numbers if it works with that coil. Krupa has said it needs a high performance coil. If others want to work on this here is the link to the coil I got, which is at a good price if you consider the free delivery to the US.

Link: http://projectmotorsport.com/store/product.php?productid=319&cat=0&page=1

Here is what MSD says about this coil: When the mad scientists at MSD were creating this 7-series ignition coil they pulled all of the good stuff out of their Pro-mag 44 coil and stuffed it into this one. The HVC-2 Coil produces 48,000 volts at a stout 2-amps with only .016 ohms of primary resistance! It utilizes an iron U-Core design with a segmented bobbin molded from Rynite and wound specifically for incredible voltage capabilities, lightning quick rise time and lengthy spark duration. The Rynite housing features far spaced brass primary terminals and a well protected secondary tower for increased spark isolation.

We shall see

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 14, 2008, 08:07:45 PM
kalnai, I don't have that information wet!... but I do have on order the most powerful coil that MSD makes and once I receive that and do some tests I should have some numbers if it works with that coil. Krupa has said it needs a high performance coil. If others want to work on this here is the link to the coil I got, which is at a good price if you consider the free delivery to the US.

Link: http://projectmotorsport.com/store/product.php?productid=319&cat=0&page=1

Here is what MSD says about this coil: When the mad scientists at MSD were creating this 7-series ignition coil they pulled all of the good stuff out of their Pro-mag 44 coil and stuffed it into this one. The HVC-2 Coil produces 48,000 volts at a stout 2-amps with only .016 ohms of primary resistance! It utilizes an iron U-Core design with a segmented bobbin molded from Rynite and wound specifically for incredible voltage capabilities, lightning quick rise time and lengthy spark duration. The Rynite housing features far spaced brass primary terminals and a well protected secondary tower for increased spark isolation.

We shall see

Luc

Luc

Are you sure that   your coil is a stand alone  device?

It looks to me like it was made to work with  an ignition  box like this one .

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5843

To me the most interesting thing about   this  combanation  is  that it fires for 20 degrees .
It seems to me that  firing  20 degrees would take care of most of the timing  problems .
All we would have to  do is  add  some LV  at  the  plug .

Something  other than  a standard  inverter might be needed for   the LV
At  60 HZ  you  would have alot of   HV only  firings 


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 14, 2008, 08:39:09 PM
@Luc,

This is what the site you ordered from says about the coil..... MSD engineers drew upon their experience with Top Fuel cars and coils used with our Pro Mag 44 to create the new HVC-2 Coil for use with the MSD 7 Series Ignition Controls.

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on August 14, 2008, 10:30:51 PM

Hi guys,

Sorry, I have not taken the time to read the last posts.
Perhaps am I 'out of date'?

Anyway, I have made a more accurate as possible replication of
the Peter Lindemann's experiment.
Guess what? It works...


(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Experiment_1_2_small.jpg)

With the diodes (15 *  1N5408) disconnected I get very tiny sparks.
With the diodes connected, the sparks are more important and 'sonorous'.
With a mist of water the sparks are also more important.
When I put too much water the phenomenon stops (not more sparks)..

I Will try with a mist made from an "ultrasonic mister" ??? :
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Brumisateur.jpg)

More picture at : http://freenrg.info/Water_Power/My_Replication/ (http://freenrg.info/Water_Power/My_Replication/)

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 15, 2008, 12:22:09 AM
@everyone,

I just uploaded a video but I have no time to write about it since I'm now on my way out for most of the evening.

I will answer questions late this evening when I return.

Luc

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJVbA8Upvs
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dmoney on August 15, 2008, 01:03:18 AM
Stanley Meyer's buggy found and for sale - looks for real!!!

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1085&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 (http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1085&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0)

I am speechless.

Darren
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 15, 2008, 02:34:48 AM
Luc.

Great job. Thanks for the test data it seems to collaborate that current is there only to create the conductive environment for the high voltage spark effect. Tomorrow, I will cut out the additional 9 diodes from the chain.
If we could somehow split the system to maintain the current but increase the voltage, perhaps with an additional coil, that would be spectacular. Can anyone suggest a circuit addition without the need for additional power supply like Aaron's booster, which I understand is "buggy" if driven by a shared source. 

Rgds
D.
It appears I lucked out with my 1N5408's  ;D
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 15, 2008, 07:02:22 AM
Luc

Are you sure that   your coil is a stand alone  device?

It looks to me like it was made to work with  an ignition  box like this one .

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5843

To me the most interesting thing about   this  combanation  is  that it fires for 20 degrees .
It seems to me that  firing  20 degrees would take care of most of the timing  problems .
All we would have to  do is  add  some LV  at  the  plug .

Something  other than  a standard  inverter might be needed for   the LV
At  60 HZ  you  would have alot of   HV only  firings 


gary

Hi Gary,

thanks for your concern. I think this coil is really designed to work with a driver circuit if you want to use it on a car. I want to do something a little different and hope I can make (build) my own driver circuit just like I did for the Krupa test video. A coil should be a coil, this one will have a different behavior than a standard coil an that could be what I'm looking for.

I have hope :D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 15, 2008, 07:42:11 AM
Hi guys,

Sorry, I have not taken the time to read the last posts.
Perhaps am I 'out of date'?

Anyway, I have made a more accurate as possible replication of
the Peter Lindemann's experiment.
Guess what? It works...


(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Experiment_1_2_small.jpg)

With the diodes (15 *  1N5408) disconnected I get very tiny sparks.
With the diodes connected, the sparks are more important and 'sonorous'.
With a mist of water the sparks are also more important.
When I put too much water the phenomenon stops (not more sparks)..

I Will try with a mist made from an "ultrasonic mister" ??? :
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Brumisateur.jpg)

More picture at : http://freenrg.info/Water_Power/My_Replication/ (http://freenrg.info/Water_Power/My_Replication/)

Best

Hi NerzhDishual, great build there ;) . You may want to cut down on your diode string to 7 (see my new video) since you have the 1N5408 and would get a better LV kick. Save the other 8 in case you ever kill the first 7.

You will get great results with the ultrasonic water fog.

Excellent work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 15, 2008, 10:25:13 AM
@everyone,

I just uploaded a video but I have no time to write about it since I'm now on my way out for most of the evening.

I will answer questions late this evening when I return.

Luc

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJVbA8Upvs
Luc,

See the attached xls sheet for Capacitor Energy calculations.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on August 15, 2008, 03:56:33 PM
How to make a firestorm plug!

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Firestorm_Spark_Plug
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 15, 2008, 06:47:53 PM
Luc,

See the attached xls sheet for Capacitor Energy calculations.

Hi vlindos, thank you for bringing your understanding of capacitor charging to my attention. EE is not my field of work, I am learning as I go! so thank you for sharing ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 15, 2008, 10:33:33 PM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 15, 2008, 11:09:21 PM
Hi vlindos, thank you for bringing your understanding of capacitor charging to my attention. EE is not my field of work, I am learning as I go! so thank you for sharing ;)

It was pleasure ;) I am not EE specialist either, there is bulgarian variant of this forum where the people are kind enough to share knowledge too.

Here is slightly uppdated sheet (I am posting it here because the forum isn't give me permissions to modify my post).

Luc I see you having number of different test, but still you didn't seem to trying to replicate the cap70 coil circuit. Why won't you give a try - I am trying to replicate it but number of problems occurs and the only people that use it successefuly appears be offline last few days.
Attached picture is the circuit that I am trying. Here are my observations. If the LV part of circuit if off (no AC) a tiny spark appear at SP1 a definately lighter/noisier spark at SP2, the disadvantage is that ratio of the spark is lesser than if there was no capacitors/traf. If I put the LV on. A bigbang HV spark apears at SP2 once, and then it reverts to the lighter/noisier spark, but the tiny spark at SP1 gets much much lighter (but no noise there). I guess the big capacitor is discharging there instead at SP2.

Anyone paid attention the last part of my text - thanks  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 16, 2008, 12:32:56 AM
It was pleasure ;) I am not EE specialist either, there is bulgarian variant of this forum where the people are kind enough to share knowledge too.

Here is slightly uppdated sheet (I am posting it here because the forum isn't give me permissions to modify my post).

Luc I see you having number of different test, but still you didn't seem to trying to replicate the cap70 coil circuit. Why won't you give a try - I am trying to replicate it but number of problems occurs and the only people that use it successefuly appears be offline last few days.
Attached picture is the circuit that I am trying. Here are my observations. If the LV part of circuit if off (no AC) a tiny spark appear at SP1 a definately lighter/noisier spark at SP2, the disadvantage is that ratio of the spark is lesser than if there was no capacitors/traf. If I put the LV on. A bigbang HV spark apears at SP2 once, and then it reverts to the lighter/noisier spark, but the tiny spark at SP1 gets much much lighter (but no noise there). I guess the big capacitor is discharging there instead at SP2.

Anyone paid attention the last part of my text - thanks  ;D

Hi vlindos, thanks again for your information.

@everyone, I found an online Capacitor Joule calculator if anyone is interested in saving it to your Favorites for when needed.

Calculator Link: http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php

Yes, Capacitor70. A brilliant EE man. You know, you are the first to ask me about him ;D. I think the work he has done is wonderful and wish everyone could follow his great sharing example. His first posts are what brought my attention back to looking at an attempt of a S1R replication. The picture below is his and the red circle I added is what cough my attention.

The circuit I have at this time is enough to keep me busy full time. I find that many things need to be tested before moving to something else.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 16, 2008, 03:07:30 AM
Hi vlindos, thanks again for your information. I will take down or editing that video since the Capacitor information will be misleading to others that may not know or understand the correct formula as I also did not understand it also.

@everyone, I found an online Capacitor Joule calculator if anyone is interested in saving it to your Favorites for when needed.

Calculator Link: Electronics 2000 | Capacitor Charge / Energy Calculator

Yes, Capacitor70. A brilliant EE man. You know, you are the first to ask me about him ;D. I think the work he has done is wonderful and wish everyone could follow his great sharing example. His first posts are what brought my attention back to looking at an attempt of a S1R replication. The picture below is his and the red circle I added is what cough my attention and it is interesting that you ask this at this time because of the above post on Papp's engine test.

The circuit I have at this time is enough to keep me busy full time. I find that many things need to be tested before moving to something else.

Luc


Luc, Cap70's image you are referring to is simply a "trick" of the camera, do to the frames per second. What happens is the very last billionth of a second of the last frame has cought a image, and now its has over lapped the next frame. If you examine the thing that you circled in red, its actually the top of the plug.....and that frame is not moving away just as the next frame is shot.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on August 16, 2008, 03:54:29 AM
gotoluc,

Ionization of the air makes the Northern Lights/Aurora Borealis

IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on August 16, 2008, 09:04:58 AM
Luc, Cap70's image you are referring to is simply a "trick" of the camera, do to the frames per second. What happens is the very last billionth of a second of the last frame has cought a image, and now its has over lapped the next frame. If you examine the thing that you circled in red, its actually the top of the plug.....and that frame is not moving away just as the next frame is shot.
The eye is easy to deceive due to the image persistance effect. Look at a bright light for a few seconds and then close your eyes. You will likely percieve the fading image of the bright spot for a second or so afterwards.

Ironically the best way to get a true high quality picture of the sparking and it's wave front, is with old fashion technology. An ancient  (1950 -1970 super 8, for example) high speed, good quality, "motion film recorder", will yield a far superior resolution and true picture capture, than any current reasonably affordable digital cam will. Of course the downside is, you'll have to wait for the film to be developed. - doh !    :D  :D
Cheers
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 16, 2008, 09:33:12 AM
Luc, Cap70's image you are referring to is simply a "trick" of the camera, do to the frames per second. What happens is the very last billionth of a second of the last frame has cought a image, and now its has over lapped the next frame. If you examine the thing that you circled in red, its actually the top of the plug.....and that frame is not moving away just as the next frame is shot.

Thanks for your input xbox hacker ;D...well if it's a flaw in capacitor70's video cameras frame captures then that's fine too but it doesn't change that it cough my attention and interest to start looking into this again at that time.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 16, 2008, 10:03:03 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on August 16, 2008, 01:41:34 PM
kalnai, I don't have that information wet!... but I do have on order the most powerful coil that MSD makes and once I receive that and do some tests I should have some numbers if it works with that coil. Krupa has said it needs a high performance coil. If others want to work on this here is the link to the coil I got, which is at a good price if you consider the free delivery to the US.

Link: http://projectmotorsport.com/store/product.php?productid=319&cat=0&page=1

Here is what MSD says about this coil: When the mad scientists at MSD were creating this 7-series ignition coil they pulled all of the good stuff out of their Pro-mag 44 coil and stuffed it into this one. The HVC-2 Coil produces 48,000 volts at a stout 2-amps with only .016 ohms of primary resistance! It utilizes an iron U-Core design with a segmented bobbin molded from Rynite and wound specifically for incredible voltage capabilities, lightning quick rise time and lengthy spark duration. The Rynite housing features far spaced brass primary terminals and a well protected secondary tower for increased spark isolation.

We shall see

Luc


I was basically laughed at when I mentioned this coil several weeks ago.  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 16, 2008, 06:20:16 PM

I was basically laughed at when I mentioned this coil several weeks ago.  :-\

Hi bumfuzzled, yes I'm sorry that happen to you at that time.

The reason I got this coil is to test the Krupa style plug but I'm not sure how well this coil will preform without its driver. It will be at least one more week before I receive it.

Stay tuned

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 16, 2008, 11:52:29 PM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 17, 2008, 12:00:36 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Yucca on August 17, 2008, 02:31:43 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Yucca on August 17, 2008, 02:34:13 AM
Shame you can't borrow the camera that took this awesome footage of lightning in slow-mo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7--Q9-OH8

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on August 17, 2008, 04:16:51 AM
Shame you can't borrow the camera that took this awesome footage of lightning in slow-mo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7--Q9-OH8

Another good vid, Luc.

Appreciate your hard work, again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on August 17, 2008, 05:14:15 AM
These discharge experiments are more closely related to natural phenomenon than one might expect. The association of the "sprite" with the discharge is IMO a natural association.

In the last 10 years, "sprites" have been studied in great detail by meteorologists, with the aid of satellites. It is well documented that these sprites are directly associated with thunderstorms in general, and lightning discharge activity in particular.

The sprites appear well above the discharge zone of cloud to ground and cloud to cloud lightning discharges, and are incredibly large in volume.
The actual colour of the sprites can vary, according to a number of atmospheric/charge variables.

The study of these sprites has raised more questions about the nature of lighning than it has answered. In fact, in a recent interview, the CEO of the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, candidly revealed, that after the recent meeting of world wide meterological experts in Canberra, the general consensus remained, that they still know very little about the true mechanisms of lightning creation by nature.

Now many plasma experts are theorising that lightning is not primarily the result of charge building up in the clouds due to previously commonly accepted principles, but rather, the clouds/atmospheric conditions merely provide a convenient discharge path for ionised particles borne by or created by the solar wind (plasma), in which the earth is constantly bathed. In other words, lightning is directly driven by the ionised plasma from the sun not from molecular electrostatic action within the clouds.

Either way, the sprites are worthy of study in their own right, and may help to piece together an understanding of the whole nature of high energy plasma discharges.

Cheers  keep up the good work all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 17, 2008, 06:16:53 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 17, 2008, 07:01:19 AM
Shame you can't borrow the camera that took this awesome footage of lightning in slow-mo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7--Q9-OH8

Hi Yucca, thanks for your comments. The DV Camera I use is NTSC so 29.97 FPS. One positive :D thing we have over the PAL or Secam System which is 23.976 FPS

I have no luck with modern measuring electronic equipment and the spark event as it makes the equipment useless. See my Krupa Spark plug video to get the idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPu7AI50w

Nice lightning video, thanks

In a week or so I'll do a test with a high frame rate video camera with the spark triggered at a fix frequency.

Stay tuned.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 17, 2008, 07:10:26 AM
Another good vid, Luc.

Appreciate your hard work, again.

Thanks michaelpaul for your words of appreciation :D

Just these simple words will keep me going, cuz the 0.00 $ / hr aint

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 17, 2008, 07:14:55 AM
These discharge experiments are more closely related to natural phenomenon than one might expect. The association of the "sprite" with the discharge is IMO a natural association.

In the last 10 years, "sprites" have been studied in great detail by meteorologists, with the aid of satellites. It is well documented that these sprites are directly associated with thunderstorms in general, and lightning discharge activity in particular.

The sprites appear well above the discharge zone of cloud to ground and cloud to cloud lightning discharges, and are incredibly large in volume.
The actual colour of the sprites can vary, according to a number of atmospheric/charge variables.

The study of these sprites has raised more questions about the nature of lighning than it has answered. In fact, in a recent interview, the CEO of the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, candidly revealed, that after the recent meeting of world wide meterological experts in Canberra, the general consensus remained, that they still know very little about the true mechanisms of lightning creation by nature.

Now many plasma experts are theorising that lightning is not primarily the result of charge building up in the clouds due to previously commonly accepted principles, but rather, the clouds/atmospheric conditions merely provide a convenient discharge path for ionised particles borne by or created by the solar wind (plasma), in which the earth is constantly bathed. In other words, lightning is directly driven by the ionised plasma from the sun not from molecular electrostatic action within the clouds.

Either way, the sprites are worthy of study in their own right, and may help to piece together an understanding of the whole nature of high energy plasma discharges.

Cheers  keep up the good work all.

Thanks hoptoad for the information you just shared.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on August 17, 2008, 08:02:19 AM
Thanks hoptoad for the information you just shared.
Luc
Your welcome. Any technology that mimics nature is likely to be a successful one.

Heres a link to some brief information about lightning : http://florica.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/lightning/

Here's a pictorial representation of some sprites on a .jpg attachment that is shown at the above site
Cheers

P.S. Video footage from satellites has shown that the sprites appear to precede the lightning. Sound familiar ?
Here's another quick insight : http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/116920main_yellow_sprites_lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2005/sprites_prt.htm&h=480&w=640&sz=41&tbnid=jHwHmHu_CNYJ::&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlightning%2Bsprites&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 17, 2008, 09:06:13 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on August 17, 2008, 09:07:21 AM
P.S. Video footage from satellites has shown that the sprites appear to precede the lightning. Sound familiar ?
Sorry, I misinterpreted the intial info I read on the timing of natural sprite formations. They actually follow a major lightning strike, not precede it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on August 17, 2008, 11:01:37 AM
@hoptoad
Another thing to the sprite/cloud/lightning story:
An almost vertical lightning is a very nice electrical
antenna - means it causes a transient EM wave. Things seen
of that graphic might be of the magnetic compound of that event.


rgds.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on August 17, 2008, 02:13:38 PM
Deleted by gotoluc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 17, 2008, 11:36:42 PM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 17, 2008, 11:46:34 PM
Here is my image of a plasma spear!!!
(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3977.0;attach=25778)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on August 18, 2008, 12:22:58 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Kator01 on August 18, 2008, 01:37:39 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 18, 2008, 02:39:59 AM
@everyone,

Sorry to say but the light ball Anomaly that I found ended up being an artifact made by the video camera I used.

I removed the 2 Youtube videos relating to the study of the effect and I also edited out information and or deleted posts referring to this effect since I do not want future readers to read information just to find in the end that it is not correct.

I hope all who have help with suggestion do not take this personally if I delete your post or part of its content.

Sorry for the camera glitch.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 18, 2008, 03:11:07 AM
Hi Luc and others,

Heres a link to work Athal has been doing on coaxial spark plugs to produce ball lightning.
It occurs to me that maybe this is the pivotal point - Telsa did this and produced ball lightning.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/ATHAL/

I dont have the time so maybe someone can pick this up.

FWIW - normal silicon sealant might be a good cheap insulator for making such a spark plug. I havent measured cured silicons resistance, but there must be stuff for electrical work we could use thats cheap.

Cheers,

Steve.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: peteroks on August 18, 2008, 07:13:18 AM
yep just managed to finish a modified version of cap70 design a have got a working unit with regular plasma discharges.This design is great ,no diodes ,running off wall ac for the lv circuit ,just was a matter of getting the right combo of caps,in the right size/rating.This circuit has an ignition switch and manually controlled points setup -- Now the next step those marine plugs and a switching device for the [points] and onto a b&s motor 8)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on August 18, 2008, 04:37:41 PM
yep just managed to finish a modified version of cap70 design a have got a working unit with regular plasma discharges.This design is great ,no diodes ,running off wall ac for the lv circuit ,just was a matter of getting the right combo of caps,in the right size/rating.This circuit has an ignition switch and manually controlled points setup -- Now the next step those marine plugs and a switching device for the [points] and onto a b&s motor 8)

Hi Peteroks, I will attempt to build cap70 design this week. Is there anyway you could post some pics of your build?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on August 18, 2008, 07:16:48 PM
I have followed this thread since it was first posted and have now finally read every post on the 34 pages... phew... it has been so exciting to see so many positive people all trying to get this working to make some difference in the world, so for that I wish to thank everyone

I am not very skilled in electronics or machining parts so I feel I am limited to what I can achieve but I can do what I can and will share anything I find



about the spark plugs... I have seen standard plugs (with resistor removed), homemade 2x nails spark gap, homemade plug, homemade firestorm plug for use in the experiment and they seem to work but I wanted to find some info on more nonstandard types that could be used with better effects for this circuit

I have drawn a diagram(attached) of a plug type that I would like to test but have no real way of doing so at the moment, it is based on what I understand from a plasma gasification unit and my thought is that with the gap set up along the length we can have a longer spark and more surface area along the walls for the water to become effected into the spark and hopefully have more power to drive a piston... it is drawn twice, the bottom version I was trying to shorten the plug so there is less volume of air that could be compressed and cause less pressure

the arrow in the 2d picture shows the water spray nozzle, the idea is that it would spray in between firings down the tube but have a valve that prevents any pressure from travelling back up the pipe, also the pipe would have to be insulated to prevent the spark grounding back up the water supply

from what I can tell this would be a new kind of spark plug... I have tried searching but didn't find anything like it so it would have to be made from scratch

let me know if anything like this exists or if you think it has problems with anything thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on August 18, 2008, 07:25:14 PM
I just realised in my drawing I shouldn't have insulated the end of the plug where the screw thread is, that part should be connected to the screw thread like a normal plug is...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on August 19, 2008, 12:08:49 AM


Hi witty and creative guys,

It is a real pleasure to seeing such intelligence/creativity in this very thread.
-----------------------------------------------------------
@Bumfuzzled: It is strictly forbidden to be in advance. Were you not taught so?  ;D
-----------------------------------------------------------

Hi NerzhDishual, great build there ;) ..................
Excellent work. Luc

@GotoLuc: thanks for you kind compliments. But I just copied something that was not of
my own but initially yours... BTW: thanks for your 'impulsing' very breakthrough.

My (shabby/poor) understanding is the following: The diode(s) can be 'replaced' by a significant DC voltage...(Initial GotoLuc Circuit ???). You can also have diode(s) with DC voltage (Aaron circuit ???)...
Some of you have spoken about this mysterious 'splitting the positive'. Is this about?
-------------------------------------------------------
I was just wondering: if these diodes have such an effect (and it actually have) , why do
not try to connect such diode(s) on a 'real' motor and see what is happening?

I'm far from a mechanic and also far from a lot of electronic stuffs.
I'm just also wondering what the (universal) heck am I not far from?

I'm a poor lonesome replicating guy far away from my own.  

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 19, 2008, 03:16:55 AM
I have followed this thread since it was first posted and have now finally read every post on the 34 pages... phew... it has been so exciting to see so many positive people all trying to get this working to make some difference in the world, so for that I wish to thank everyone

I am not very skilled in electronics or machining parts so I feel I am limited to what I can achieve but I can do what I can and will share anything I find



about the spark plugs... I have seen standard plugs (with resistor removed), homemade 2x nails spark gap, homemade plug, homemade firestorm plug for use in the experiment and they seem to work but I wanted to find some info on more nonstandard types that could be used with better effects for this circuit

I have drawn a diagram(attached) of a plug type that I would like to test but have no real way of doing so at the moment, it is based on what I understand from a plasma gasification unit and my thought is that with the gap set up along the length we can have a longer spark and more surface area along the walls for the water to become effected into the spark and hopefully have more power to drive a piston... it is drawn twice, the bottom version I was trying to shorten the plug so there is less volume of air that could be compressed and cause less pressure

the arrow in the 2d picture shows the water spray nozzle, the idea is that it would spray in between firings down the tube but have a valve that prevents any pressure from travelling back up the pipe, also the pipe would have to be insulated to prevent the spark grounding back up the water supply

from what I can tell this would be a new kind of spark plug... I have tried searching but didn't find anything like it so it would have to be made from scratch

let me know if anything like this exists or if you think it has problems with anything thanks

Welcome AKA

I have been thinking along the same lines as you .

I made a quick  drawing  of  a similar idea .

I made the  anode black .
The  idea  is to keep  the anode mostly dry .
This  design would  spey the water  across the ramps  at the cathode . 
The arc should hit the water   near the center of the  chamber .

It is not intended for the arc to hit all the water .   
I think  a mix  of  plasma and  water drops  intering the  cylinder  would be ideal . 


I  almost went back and  made a  change.
I was thinking that    removing one   of the  blue  water  tubes would make  room for   a wire to the cathode .
If the wire was internal   then   the  plug shell  could be nuteral  .  ..................   
I  think  if we ground both  HV and LV  on the  engine  someone is eventually going to  make a mistake and end up  charcoal .
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2008, 05:03:06 AM
Hi Luc and others,

Heres a link to work Athal has been doing on coaxial spark plugs to produce ball lightning.
It occurs to me that maybe this is the pivotal point - Telsa did this and produced ball lightning.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/ATHAL/

I dont have the time so maybe someone can pick this up.

FWIW - normal silicon sealant might be a good cheap insulator for making such a spark plug. I havent measured cured silicons resistance, but there must be stuff for electrical work we could use thats cheap.

Cheers,

Steve.

Thanks Steve for sharing this. Many thing we can try but time is always an issue :-\

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2008, 05:06:06 AM
yep just managed to finish a modified version of cap70 design a have got a working unit with regular plasma discharges.This design is great ,no diodes ,running off wall ac for the lv circuit ,just was a matter of getting the right combo of caps,in the right size/rating.This circuit has an ignition switch and manually controlled points setup -- Now the next step those marine plugs and a switching device for the [points] and onto a b&s motor 8)

Hi peteroks, are you sure you're sharing this in the right topic?

I'm happy if you are anyways ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2008, 05:12:51 AM
Hi Peteroks, I will attempt to build cap70 design this week. Is there anyway you could post some pics of your build?

Hi michaelpaul, if you don't mind, please go to: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.0/topicseen.html
where cap70 is sharing his circuit as the one being shared here is different and I think it would create less confusion for newcomers if we do keep them separate

Thanks for understanding ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2008, 05:17:29 AM
I have followed this thread since it was first posted and have now finally read every post on the 34 pages... phew... it has been so exciting to see so many positive people all trying to get this working to make some difference in the world, so for that I wish to thank everyone

I am not very skilled in electronics or machining parts so I feel I am limited to what I can achieve but I can do what I can and will share anything I find



about the spark plugs... I have seen standard plugs (with resistor removed), homemade 2x nails spark gap, homemade plug, homemade firestorm plug for use in the experiment and they seem to work but I wanted to find some info on more nonstandard types that could be used with better effects for this circuit

I have drawn a diagram(attached) of a plug type that I would like to test but have no real way of doing so at the moment, it is based on what I understand from a plasma gasification unit and my thought is that with the gap set up along the length we can have a longer spark and more surface area along the walls for the water to become effected into the spark and hopefully have more power to drive a piston... it is drawn twice, the bottom version I was trying to shorten the plug so there is less volume of air that could be compressed and cause less pressure

the arrow in the 2d picture shows the water spray nozzle, the idea is that it would spray in between firings down the tube but have a valve that prevents any pressure from travelling back up the pipe, also the pipe would have to be insulated to prevent the spark grounding back up the water supply

from what I can tell this would be a new kind of spark plug... I have tried searching but didn't find anything like it so it would have to be made from scratch

let me know if anything like this exists or if you think it has problems with anything thanks

Thank you Aka for sharing your spark plug ideas. Looks good and I hope someone has the time to build and test this.

Keep up the great work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2008, 05:38:20 AM
Welcome AKA

I have been thinking along the same lines as you .

I made a quick  drawing  of  a similar idea .

I made the  anode black .
The  idea  is to keep  the anode mostly dry .
This  design would  spey the water  across the ramps  at the cathode . 
The arc should hit the water   near the center of the  chamber .

It is not intended for the arc to hit all the water .   
I think  a mix  of  plasma and  water drops  intering the  cylinder  would be ideal . 


I  almost went back and  made a  change.
I was thinking that    removing one   of the  blue  water  tubes would make  room for   a wire to the cathode .
If the wire was internal   then   the  plug shell  could be nuteral  .  ..................   
I  think  if we ground both  HV and LV  on the  engine  someone is eventually going to  make a mistake and end up  charcoal .


Thank you also resonanceman for sharing your interesting ideas. I hope with all the 3 design ideas shared on this single page someone can create the ideal Injection Spark Plug.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2008, 06:06:16 AM
@everyone,

I just uploaded a new video demonstrating only a Diode test. I think Diode quantity can vary depending on plug gap, cap size and charged voltage. This video is only to bring awareness to replicators that diodes can have an efficiency effect on the circuit. I would recommend for you to test and find what works best for your own application and circuit.

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYyf0BW0jM

I did not show this in the video but I can get the intense spark to happen with the 16 diode string with the 22uf cap but it needs to be charged to 146vdc = .234 Joule compare to 22uf at 120vdc = .158 Joule with 6 diodes and both give the same spark quality.

I have used this new 6 diode string with the 1.9uf cap bank charged to well over 1000vdc and they are still working fine as you can see in this demo video. I'll let you all know if and when they fail.

This shows that different combination will give different results. So we need to test and find what works best for our own application or circuit.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: clarence1984 on August 19, 2008, 07:55:57 AM
Deleted by gotoluc (spam and not even related)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 20, 2008, 12:36:25 AM
@everyone,

I have an effect that I don't quite understand. My capacitor has excess voltage charges that happens from time to time. Maybe it is my limited electronics knowledge that makes this kind of strange. Anyways, please see if you can explain this. Have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut1WnW-lnqQ  and let me know what you think. Please note that the coil I added is only raising the effect by about 15vdc more, so it is not that doing it. Without the coil the capacitor still get up to120vdc extra charges.

Thanks all for your help and time.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 20, 2008, 01:27:35 AM
Hi All,


To help with prototyping - yesterday I got out my Ohmmeter and measured the silicon sealant around my shower screen. It read open circuit. Yippee!!  I tested the ohmmeter on a few resisitors and it read correctly.

This is a useful finding - it may mean that we can use silicon sealant as a CHEAP and effective insulator.

I will be doing some tests to see how it functions insulating at 240V and 50KV to see how it goes.

Now obviously there is no substitute for proper commercially available insulation material , however for prototyping purposes ( in my case building a co-axial spark plug ) it may well suffice.  :D

I'll post back my results soon.

As always, make sure you have a good grounding system in place when you experiment. Be safe.

Cheers

Steve.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 20, 2008, 02:12:34 AM
Thanks Steve for the update ;)

Keep up this important work.

Luc
Title: 30 amp pulse width modulator with built in gauge
Post by: HHO King on August 20, 2008, 03:40:50 AM
Deleted by gotoluc (more spam) what is up with this Stefan?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Kator01 on August 20, 2008, 11:23:36 PM
Hi Luc,

please look up this thread here from the beginning and contact member  nul-points for this :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4419.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4419.0.html)

Regards

Kator
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on August 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AM


@Kator01: good point!

@GotoLuc: It sounds like that your coil is "doing something"...
You can also check this JLN's experiment: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tepcoil.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tepcoil.htm)
I have replicated it. It works. The charge seems not being conserved.

"Introvertebrate" is also playing with caps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g3DwpshYxU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g3DwpshYxU)

But, Nul-Points (Dr Ringwood/Sandy) is, IMHO, the more advanced
in all these matters. :)

(I have just seen your new vids. I will try with less diodes and also with mist).

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 21, 2008, 01:43:39 AM
Hi Luc,

please look up this thread here from the beginning and contact member  nul-points for this :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4419.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4419.0.html)

Regards

Kator

Hi Kator, thanks for thinking of me. I looked at nul-point's topic and think he is much too scientific for my understanding of things. Sorry it's not going to get my interest. I build stuff and if it shows an interesting effect, I'll make a videos to explain what I found. nul-point writes long posts about it with math calculations and not even a picture of anything, see the difference :-\

I learn best by seeing something, 2nd best is hearing. Reading about how to make something is way down the bottom for me. I never read instructions when it comes time to put something together. I just look at all the parts and then visually build it in my mind then physically do it.

That's just the way I've worked for the past 47 years.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 21, 2008, 02:19:16 AM
hi Luc

interesting setup!

i looked at your vid about the cap voltage anomaly

it seems to me that at the moments when you read out "300V" the DVM reading is instantaneously ONE THOUSAND and something - is that possible on that range?

could someone else take a look at the vid - maybe in slomo? - it certainly looks to me like there is a leading 1 in the left-hand 4th digit for the instant you say '300'

thanks NerzhDishual & Kator for linking me in to this phenomenon - i think its probably related to the effect which NerzhDishual and i (and lately others, like Introvertebrate on YT, too) have observed when switching charge between capacitors

conventional ElectroDynamics indicates that theoretically 50% of the supply energy in charging a capacitor to a given amount should be dissipated - as heat or radiation - in order to do the work of charging the cap

however, it seems to be accepted that some of this loss can be reduced by introducing an inductive element into the charging path - so what is this saying - that it is now possible to do the same work with less energy?!?

imagine rolling a stone up a hill - you do work to get the stone up the hill and when it's at the top it also has some potential energy of its own, which can be released by dropping or rolling the stone off the hill

that's the original conventional story

now someone comes along and says "push the stone up the hill, a few steps at a time and using this spring - the stone will still have the same potential energy but you won't have to do so much work to get it to the top"

doesn't sound likely, does it?  but that is exactly what's happening with these caps which we're charging up by switching current into it thro' a coil

with careful attention to adding a load into the charge path, it's possible to make use of the charging energy AND use the potential energy which gets stored in the cap too - this brings you to around unity (minus usual I^2 x R losses)

however, we've found that something funky is going on in the switched charge transfer process which appears to be giving more charge out than in - so now you can have around unity PLUS significant gain = OVERunity

i've noted this informally on a dedicated website
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc  and also started a thread (as referenced by Kator above - for which thanks)


i started out experimenting with switched charge to caps because H. Aspden predicted that it may be possible to get more energy out of a charged cap than is supplied, due to a 'spin inertia' effect of the vacuum medium/'aether'/energetic plenum - the fundamental energy 'lattice' which he and many others (including in the past, Maxwell & Einstein) believe permeates all space - when subject to a pulsed polarisation

at first it seemed highly unlikely to me, but i've had to admit that this effect is real - and the best explanation conventional science can offer is 'measurement error'!  ;)

i suspect that you're seeing much increased gain than those of us just looking at the switched carge anomaly because you're using a relay (true switch) whereas the switches in my tests & those of others, looking at the same phenomenon, are usually Transistor or MOSFET

not sure that i've really added anything here but good 'luc' in all your efforts  :)

all the best
sandy

PS - i've just written this in response to Kator & NerzhDishual's suggestion that there might be some link between the effect you asked for input on and the results which several of us have been getting with switched charge experiments - in the meantime i see you've looked at my results whilst i've been writing this post - and unfortunately you don't seem interested - c'est la vie  ;o(

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 21, 2008, 08:10:07 AM
hi Luc

interesting setup!

i looked at your vid about the cap voltage anomaly

it seems to me that at the moments when you read out "300V" the DVM reading is instantaneously ONE THOUSAND and something - is that possible on that range?

could someone else take a look at the vid - maybe in slomo? - it certainly looks to me like there is a leading 1 in the left-hand 4th digit for the instant you say '300'

thanks NerzhDishual & Kator for linking me in to this phenomenon - i think its probably related to the effect which NerzhDishual and i (and lately others, like Introvertebrate on YT, too) have observed when switching charge between capacitors

conventional ElectroDynamics indicates that theoretically 50% of the supply energy in charging a capacitor to a given amount should be dissipated - as heat or radiation - in order to do the work of charging the cap

however, it seems to be accepted that some of this loss can be reduced by introducing an inductive element into the charging path - so what is this saying - that it is now possible to do the same work with less energy?!?

imagine rolling a stone up a hill - you do work to get the stone up the hill and when it's at the top it also has some potential energy of its own, which can be released by dropping or rolling the stone off the hill

that's the original conventional story

now someone comes along and says "push the stone up the hill, a few steps at a time and using this spring - the stone will still have the same potential energy but you won't have to do so much work to get it to the top"

doesn't sound likely, does it?  but that is exactly what's happening with these caps which we're charging up by switching current into it thro' a coil

with careful attention to adding a load into the charge path, it's possible to make use of the charging energy AND use the potential energy which gets stored in the cap too - this brings you to around unity (minus usual I^2 x R losses)

however, we've found that something funky is going on in the switched charge transfer process which appears to be giving more charge out than in - so now you can have around unity PLUS significant gain = OVERunity

i've noted this informally on a dedicated website
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc  and also started a thread (as referenced by Kator above - for which thanks)


i started out experimenting with switched charge to caps because H. Aspden predicted that it may be possible to get more energy out of a charged cap than is supplied, due to a 'spin inertia' effect of the vacuum medium/'aether'/energetic plenum - the fundamental energy 'lattice' which he and many others (including in the past, Maxwell & Einstein) believe permeates all space - when subject to a pulsed polarisation

at first it seemed highly unlikely to me, but i've had to admit that this effect is real - and the best explanation conventional science can offer is 'measurement error'!  ;)

i suspect that you're seeing much increased gain than those of us just looking at the switched carge anomaly because you're using a relay (true switch) whereas the switches in my tests & those of others, looking at the same phenomenon, are usually Transistor or MOSFET

not sure that i've really added anything here but good 'luc' in all your efforts  :)

all the best
sandy

PS - i've just written this in response to Kator & NerzhDishual's suggestion that there might be some link between the effect you asked for input on and the results which several of us have been getting with switched charge experiments - in the meantime i see you've looked at my results whilst i've been writing this post - and unfortunately you don't seem interested - c'est la vie  ;o(

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Hi Sandy,

Thanks for looking at this tread. First thing I did for you or anyone interested is upload the Capacitor Voltage Spikes test video on Megaupload: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RP6DLZV3

Please download it from there since the quality will be about twice as good to what you can see on YouTube.

If your computer won't play it, you will need to install Cole Media Codec Pack or some Codec pack like that.

You will be able to see the voltage meter clearly with this video. The meter is set to the highest scale which is 600 volts. I think the most it can display is 999 (3 digits) but it can also display a minus next to the 3 digits, so -999. I don't think it has more digits than that.

I was also thinking that the relay contacts could be part of the effect. I was thinking that since I used that relay for a while now that it could of formed some kind of oxidization on the surface of the contacts that could cause a kind of resistance but the kind that is good. I can take the relay apart now since I fried it last night when doing tests at high pulse rates which surprised me. I could crank that relay up to 30hz. The spark was so loud and powerfull that I had to use my construction ear muffs. I was also trying to measure the energy consumed at that frequency but had no luck. My amp meter was showing negative. I don't think that is real because I have had this many time before. I'll try other things and let you know if I find anything more.

Please don't think that I'm not interested in your work! we just have a different style. I am interested in anything that can help mankind out of the walls we have created.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 21, 2008, 08:52:54 AM
hi Luc

 [i've just seen we've cross-posted again  :)   - yeah, no probs about the thread results - i'm a hands-on guy too actually - the lack of pictures on the thread is mostly because a photo of a capacitor in a plugboard charging to a few volts is not the most interesting image in the world! - my website with the collected info has scope traces of the input, switched  & output voltages & circuit diagrams - the calcs are necessary to show that the output energy converted by the circuit is 120% of the energy supplied by the input cap]

thanks for the additional vid at higher quality - it's in the process of downloading now (8 mins left)

while it's downloading, i think i have time to say that if your circuit is:-

  AC  -> Full-Wave Recitfier -> Relay -> Coil -> Capacitor (or some variant of that connection)

  then i think the high voltage spikes could be caused mostly by coil flyback voltage when the relay cuts out each time - you'd get a variety of max voltages shown because the input to the coil-cap arrangement is not pure DC - it's varying repetitively between 0 & the peak of the rectified 120V AC (ie. 168V - as shown by your DVM)

when you manually switch the relay you'll sometimes catch the input waveform at high enough input value to give you larger readings (and very rarely, you'll catch it on or close to the 0V point - in which case the output will be 0V or close, too)

at the moment i'm thinking that what you're seeing is mostly the voltage magnification effect caused by switching-off current thro' the coil - IF the circuit is just the elemnts i mentioned above

you could try a slight mod which would help confirm this:
  connect a second capacitor after the diode bridge rectifier but before the relay - that way the input voltage would be constant (around 168V) and then you should see that your output max voltages become more regular

of course, if the relay is only manually switched on-off, then you are varying the on-time of the coil-charging, and with the large coil you have this could give you different amounts of energy in the coil each time - leading to different max voltage spikes at flyback

so a further mod you could make to get the input energy even more regular, would be to trigger the relay from a one-shot pulse circuit (monostable) which would always switch the relay on for the same period regardless of how long you held it's input in the 'on' state

hope this helps

[the vid download has failed, so i'm restarting.... if i get a chance to view it before i have to leave for work i'll reply soon - otherwise i'll have to get back to you tonight (UK time)]

[late edit: - download just completed & only playing as audio content with my current codecs - i'll try & download a suitable codec tonight when i get back & have a look in better detail. 

you say the max rvalue on that DVM range setting is 999V, so maybe the extra digit i'm seeing is the '-' sign - could be a transient overload conditon, so the max voltage could still be going greater than 1000V - i'll get a better look later hopefully.

 if you're intending to switch the cap in the same way (ie thro a relay) & manually, i'd recommend those two mods i mentioned above to make the operation more repeatable - and ensure you're getting the max voltage on the cap each time - there are other ways to switch at peak AC input but those mentioned are pretty easy to implement]

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 21, 2008, 09:37:36 AM
hi Luc

...gotta go - but just managed to capture this off the original vid - can't see a decimal point on the display, but your earlier static 168V reading is using 3 digits so that's why i'm thinking this is over 1000V (or an overload - which means it's higher than 600 - possibly higher than 999)

i'll get a new codec tonight & look at the higher-res vid

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Kator01 on August 21, 2008, 12:42:21 PM
Hello Luc,

It would helpful if you could make a simple hand-drawing of the complete circuit so that we are not left speculating on this effect. It is important to knwo the exact figures of your leading coil ( L in Henry ), the max switch-amperage and volatage of the relais, values of the HV-Diodes and inductance of the primary ingnition-coil.

Also any digital-meter fails in showing the exact values while measuring pulse-modes. Although I accept your reluctance to get a bit more "scientific" I can assure you that it is very important to learn the minimum of methods known in electronics. I myself have lost a lage amount of time in "barking at the wrong tree" - so to say.

I agree on what nul-point was saying about your observation.

Input current is measured best be detecting the voltage-drop across a low-value resistor ( 1 Ohm, 25 Watt ) either with a true RMS meter in AC-mode before the rectifier or in DC-mode after the rectifier.

The link fo yours above does not work today, its says the server lead the enquiery around somewhere so it can never be answered

Anyway , first measure-methods have to be revised and a drawing would be helpful, so we can duplicate exactly.

Kator
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 21, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
hi Luc

...managed to get a schematic of the suggestions together in my lunch-break...

as an alternative to flyback diode protection across the inductor to reduce contact wear on the relay, you could try placing one or more HV diodes D2 (enough to cope with the required peak flyback voltage) as shown in the schematic

the supply end of the coil pulses negative each switch-off and so a diode polarised as shown will enable the flyback energy to flow thro' the coil, adding into the cap with the charge you've just switched in

looking at the diode/coil junction voltage on a scope will show there is only a minimal voltage spike being captured - this is true: the diode limits the spike to its forward voltage - BUT the current is NOT limited - the flyback energy does get transferred

...just one of the 'practical' things i learned from my switched charge experiments  ;)

the supply filter/'smoothing' cap C1 may need some series resistance to reduce in-rush current when first powering up - you'ld need to experiment to find the best value for C1 - and the best RC time constant (if R1 is also used) which enables C1 to recharge in the required inter-spark period

choice of R1 will be a compromise between limiting in-rush current & getting an acceptable C1 recharge time


useful points above by Kator - Luc, you're in good hands with support like you're getting on this thread!


hope these suggestions help

all the best
sandy

PS thanks to NerzhDishual for access to the circuit-drawing App

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on August 21, 2008, 04:40:43 PM
@Kator01
Quote
Anyway , first measure-methods have to be revised and a drawing would be helpful, so we can duplicate exactly.
Personally I don't take very many measurements as they tend to be misleading in most cases with the circuits in question. I prefer understanding the qualities of the components over measurement, in the case of an inductive discharge the voltage can pass through a coil (analog meter) with little or no reaction while a digital meter will show only remnants of an impulse that has already passed and any measurement depends on the components of the meter itself. One misunderstanding concerns the inductance itself, if we consider an inductance as having inertia or momentum then it should be obvious that two forces must develop when the source current is removed from an inductance. One force compresses ahead of the inductance producing high potentials in an infinitely small time frame, the other force expands behind the inductance producing high potentials in an infinitely small time frame. This is something I do not think you will ever measure accurately to any degree, you have to "know" what is happening through understanding the qualities of the components and the ways energy can be transformed. It may be helpfull to understand that the two forces produced in an inductive discharge ( Compression-Expansion ) can be seperated to some extent and produce reactions in and of themselves if certain criteria are met. To prove this fact we can use an ignition coil to raise the potential of the source current, the ignition coil will discharge (arc) to the (+) source terminal, it will discharge to the (-) source terminal, it will also discharge to the metallic end of a screwdriver or any metal object having no relation to the circuit producing the discharge. But we should remember that if we believe that a compression must also be balanced by an expansion as we see everywhere in nature then this arc discharge to the screwdrivers metal end only represents one half of the energy present. ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 21, 2008, 05:59:56 PM
Hi Sandy,

I liked the recommendation of adding cap on the dc side of my bridge output to see if the voltage peaks of my charge capacitor are from there. The answer is yes! that is what was happening! by keeping a cap on the bridge output now every time the relay reconnected to charge the cap it only goes up to 168 volts. So it appears to me now! that the dc side of a bridge (with 120vac input) can swings high enough to charge a (non polarized) 6.8uf cap to 210vdc since that is the highest I have seen it charge without the inductor. When I add the inductor in series on the switching leg of the relay it can charge up to 310vdc.

I don't know if you are still interested to continue looking at this effect? please let me know if you are.

I see from your picture that my meter seems to have a 1 digit before the other 3. I just did a quick test with a 9v battery on the 2v scale and that is the digit that displays 1 when the input is (overload) higher than the scale. Also please note that when the spark event happens my meters and computer LCD flicker all the digits. I even have a LCD calculator that is off and will turn on on its own and all digits will light up. See my Krupa video for an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPu7AI50w

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 21, 2008, 06:02:38 PM
@Kator01Personally I don't take very many measurements as they tend to be misleading in most cases with the circuits in question. I prefer understanding the qualities of the components over measurement, in the case of an inductive discharge the voltage can pass through a coil (analog meter) with little or no reaction while a digital meter will show only remnants of an impulse that has already passed and any measurement depends on the components of the meter itself. One misunderstanding concerns the inductance itself, if we consider an inductance as having inertia or momentum then it should be obvious that two forces must develop when the source current is removed from an inductance. One force compresses ahead of the inductance producing high potentials in an infinitely small time frame, the other force expands behind the inductance producing high potentials in an infinitely small time frame. This is something I do not think you will ever measure accurately to any degree, you have to "know" what is happening through understanding the qualities of the components and the ways energy can be transformed. It may be helpfull to understand that the two forces produced in an inductive discharge ( Compression-Expansion ) can be seperated to some extent and produce reactions in and of themselves if certain criteria are met. To prove this fact we can use an ignition coil to raise the potential of the source current, the ignition coil will discharge (arc) to the (+) source terminal, it will discharge to the (-) source terminal, it will also discharge to the metallic end of a screwdriver or any metal object having no relation to the circuit producing the discharge. But we should remember that if we believe that a compression must also be balanced by an expansion as we see everywhere in nature then this arc discharge to the screwdrivers metal end only represents one half of the energy present. ;D

Hi allcanadian, as always I really enjoy your help and input. Thanks for keeping an eye ;) on the topic.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 21, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
@everyone,

I'm bringing this over from the Energetic Forum since I find it interesting. User name: Ozicell is playing around with sparks and has this effect.

Keep in mind he has a aluminum bench that is touching the ground (Earth) to some extent which could create some capacitance.

Luc

Hi Guys, I did something today which was totally and accident. I had intended doing a demo of the pulstar spark as opposed to a standard spark, so I moved a few things on my bench to one side and started the motor. What I had was a spark jumping from an unattached coil to a ball plug sitting in my open pressure chamber.

I replicated this for the first video here and then did another video showing the difference between the spark lead jumping directly to the plug as opposed to the coil and bench.

Cheers
Jeff

Coil to sparkplug jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDq8LzzpODU

Spark coil amplified V std spark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TJkZyaxTlo

Hi guys,

I just did that extra video for your consideration. Firstly, plug is firing with every pulse but you can't always see it because of the angle. Secondly, when I place the spark lead near the secondary from the coil, the spark jump between spark lead and coil lead goes almost invisible - very fine and faint but still jumps the gap, however, at the coil to plug end and the business end of the plug I get really fat white sparks with loud snaps. I don't know why this happens! Why does the spark lead to coil secondary lead spark become so faint when everywhere else it's strong and fat?

Anyway, thought it might be interesting to you all, enjoy!

Playing with the spark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1oTi9_4Ng

Cheers
Jeff


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 21, 2008, 07:11:06 PM
@everyone,

I can't resist this one and I think allcanadian would enjoy this one. He is a YouTube user called: crob227

I've see his videos before but this new one is intersting ;D

Luc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OelWIh2lmfE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on August 21, 2008, 07:29:00 PM
LUC   that is a jaw dropper .Thanks ,   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 05:09:18 AM
@everyone,

the news is spreading: http://www.opednews.com/articles/3/Free-Energy-and-the-Open-S-by-Steve-Windisch-ji-080821-504.html

Thanks to everyone's work, participation and support.

By working together we will find the answers.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on August 22, 2008, 06:26:16 AM
kalnai, I don't have that information wet!... but I do have on order the most powerful coil that MSD makes and once I receive that and do some tests I should have some numbers if it works with that coil. Krupa has said it needs a high performance coil. If others want to work on this here is the link to the coil I got, which is at a good price if you consider the free delivery to the US.

Link: http://projectmotorsport.com/store/product.php?productid=319&cat=0&page=1

Here is what MSD says about this coil: When the mad scientists at MSD were creating this 7-series ignition coil they pulled all of the good stuff out of their Pro-mag 44 coil and stuffed it into this one. The HVC-2 Coil produces 48,000 volts at a stout 2-amps with only .016 ohms of primary resistance! It utilizes an iron U-Core design with a segmented bobbin molded from Rynite and wound specifically for incredible voltage capabilities, lightning quick rise time and lengthy spark duration. The Rynite housing features far spaced brass primary terminals and a well protected secondary tower for increased spark isolation.

We shall see

Luc

I am working with Krupa on the plugs. They use a special alloy that does not wear down like other plugs, and they give a plasma effect much easier than other plugs. High performance ignition is used just as he stated previously. Energy was stated previously as 1 joule or more. This of course is a stout supply and coil that can handle that level of energy input.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 22, 2008, 09:27:54 AM
hi Luc

glad the cap after the FWBR helped

if you haven't yet used a series Res (R1**) with it, you might need one if you find C1 fails after some sustained use - should only need to be a couple of hundred ohms (1W ?) - if C1 continues ok as now, don't bother with it - what value & rating cap did you use for C1?

(**  labels refer to my schematic posted earlier)

if you haven't added D2 i would strongly recommend it, if you intend to keep the relay in the circuit## - it will significantly reduce degradation of the relay switch contacts! - also adds the flyback energy from coil into  your charging cap (C2), but i don't know if you're trying to be energy-conscious with the circuit at the moment

(## noticed your request for solid state SPDT circuit & was going to simplify the Bedini one for you but i see that Groundloop has done that - so, pretty similar arrangement to my switched charge switching now - charge a cap thro' a coil & then discharge into a load)

yes, i'm happy to help 'continue looking at the effect' - if that means observing the posts & vids etc. & making suggestions if appropriate - you have other members here who have direct experience of the whole water-plasma phenomenon, and just more tech experience & knowledge in general than me, i think!  :)

great vids you linked above (both your own & the other sources) - very interesting side-effects from your Krupa replication - would be interesting to know if the powered-off unit which showed LCD being energised would still behave the same if you could house it in some kind of faraday cage

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on August 22, 2008, 10:06:56 AM
Hi Luc  :)

I was wondering if there is any steam pressure develloped in the proces?
If so then maybe it is possible to directly drive turbines or the like or something in the o'l steam engine fashion at a low cost since we do not need to actually boil the water first?

I will catch you guys up on the experiments soon.
Marco.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: starcruiser on August 22, 2008, 02:38:50 PM
Just a thought, how about using a tesla turbine with this set up? use a water injector and hit it with the spark/plasma discharge?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on August 22, 2008, 03:37:46 PM
Just a thought, how about using a tesla turbine with this set up? use a water injector and hit it with the spark/plasma discharge?

Hey Carl  :D

That was exactly what i was thinking.
If the pressure is high enough we might just drive a small turbine /dynamo construction.

Marco.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 06:07:58 PM
I am working with Krupa on the plugs. They use a special alloy that does not wear down like other plugs, and they give a plasma effect much easier than other plugs. High performance ignition is used just as he stated previously. Energy was stated previously as 1 joule or more. This of course is a stout supply and coil that can handle that level of energy input.

Hi UncleFester, thank you for letting us know that you are working with Mr. Krupa and about the special alloy needed for the plugs to last.

Do you think the MSD coil I chose will give good results?

Does Mr. Krupa know about this simple circuit wet?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 06:39:23 PM
hi Luc

glad the cap after the FWBR helped

Hi Sandy, well I don't know if I would say it helped, it was more like a test to see if the voltage peaks were coming from the dc side of the bridge. Maybe there would be an advantage to synchronizing the cap charging at these peaks ??? I don't have enough EE experience to conclude this. If anyone has an simple circuit idea that could do the synchronizing, please let me know and I will test to see if any advantages take place.

what value & rating cap did you use for C1?

The cap is 6.8uf 250 AC, so non polarized. Have a look at the video, I got this this cap out of those old heavy wood 30" color TV unit. I don't know why but this cap takes the best peak charges and give an amazing bang for its UF size ??? I checked it on my capacitance meter and it is 6.9uf but gives the same kind of bang as my 22uf 350v polarized, which I also check on meter and it is actually 26uf. I don't understand that.


if you haven't added D2 i would strongly recommend it, if you intend to keep the relay in the circuit## - it will significantly reduce degradation of the relay switch contacts! - also adds the flyback energy from coil into  your charging cap (C2), but i don't know if you're trying to be energy-conscious with the circuit at the moment

Thanks ;) I'll test this and let you know.

very interesting side-effects from your Krupa replication - would be interesting to know if the powered-off unit which showed LCD being energised would still behave the same if you could house it in some kind of faraday cage

I did try a Faraday cage over the complete circuit and it did not change much. The effect are in all the wires.

Thanks for your help, sharing and keeping an eye on this topic.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 08:20:40 PM
Hello Luc,

It would helpful if you could make a simple hand-drawing of the complete circuit so that we are not left speculating on this effect. It is important to knwo the exact figures of your leading coil ( L in Henry ), the max switch-amperage and volatage of the relais, values of the HV-Diodes and inductance of the primary ingnition-coil.

Also any digital-meter fails in showing the exact values while measuring pulse-modes. Although I accept your reluctance to get a bit more "scientific" I can assure you that it is very important to learn the minimum of methods known in electronics. I myself have lost a lage amount of time in "barking at the wrong tree" - so to say.

I agree on what nul-point was saying about your observation.

Input current is measured best be detecting the voltage-drop across a low-value resistor ( 1 Ohm, 25 Watt ) either with a true RMS meter in AC-mode before the rectifier or in DC-mode after the rectifier.

The link fo yours above does not work today, its says the server lead the enquiery around somewhere so it can never be answered

Anyway , first measure-methods have to be revised and a drawing would be helpful, so we can duplicate exactly.

Kator

Hi Kator,

I made a hand drawn circuit. If you or anyone else can make a clean one that would be great since I can include it at my first page as an update.

The Full Wave Bridge Rectifier is a standard off the self item 400v  5 amps or more if you wish.

The Air Core Charge Inductor I made is from a primary of a MOT that I cut out and recoiled it. The Inductor center opening is 38mm. The O.D. is 60mm and the width is 40mm. From what I can tell the Mag Wire is about 14 Gauge. The coils DC resistance is 0.4 Ohms and measures 2.23mH on my inductance meter.

The Relay is an Automotive 12vdc relay rated 40A/30A which is SPDT . I did not show the relay coil in the diagram since the black marker I was using is too large to show details. The relays rest position is on the bridge to cap. I use a 12vdc battery to activate the relay coil to discharge the cap to the coil and diode string.

The Capacitor is 6.8uf 250 AC (non polarized). I go this this cap out an old heavy wood 30" color TV unit. I don't know why but this cap takes the best peak charges give an amazing bang for its UF size ???  My capacitance meter says it is 6.9uf but gives the same kind of bang as my 22uf 350v polarized, which I also check on meter and it is actually 26uf. I don't understand that.

The Coil is an Automotive Coil made by Accel part on. 8140C. The Primary DC resistance is 1.3 Ohms and measures 6.46mH on inductance meter. Secondary DC resistance is 9.10 K Ohms and I cannot measure H on my meter.

The Diodes are a string of 1N5408 in series and are rated at 1000 volts at 3A each.

The Spark Plug used for spark gap is from a 3HP gas lawn mower engine that will be used for testing the circuit. Modifications to the plug are: I cut off the J electrode and also filed down the center electrode so both are at same level. With this mod. the Plug now has a 3mm gap. The plugs internal resistor has been removed and replaced with 3 pcs. of correct length 14 gauge solid copper wire to complete the contact.

I hope this is enough details for anyone to replicate.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on August 22, 2008, 08:25:35 PM
Hi UncleFester, thank you for letting us know that you are working with Mr. Krupa and about the special alloy needed for the plugs to last.

Do you think the MSD coil I chose will give good results?

Does Mr. Krupa know about this simple circuit wet?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

We have used the MSD Blaster 2 and Blaster 3 on his plugs and they both work well, with the enhanced spark setup and without. Tests were run in the 20Hz to 300Hz range fired by a large Mosfet with snubbers on the output. Voltages from 10 to 150 volts were used and his plug seems to produce a more pronounced plasma compared to regular plugs. I have used up to 220uF flash caps but blew mosfets out under the larger capacitive discharges. I am switching to an SCR driven system like Lee's (AKA SMW1989A) for more robustness. We have also exploded water using the genuine Firestorm and the other brands and they work similar although the Firestorm explodes the water under much less energy than the others. We used Bosch platinum and many of the champion line and they just don't create the same plasma effect under the same energy levels. Almost appears to the eye that the Firestorm plugs create a ball of plasma inside the cage and you get flashes of flame? extending outside the cage as well. Similar to what you see in his earlier videos. Most of those tests were on run under 800mJ energy levels after the mosfets blew. We used the MSD ignition driver (Digital-6 Plus) which is half the energy rating we need. We have Crane cams drivers coming which are capable of 1.2 Joules. We will use those as a backup to the SCR driven and variac fed power supply we are building.

Once I have the large SCR bench test system up I will tell you of the results from the 2 to 6 joule range firing. Hopefully we can run constantly and really get some good test data from it. I'm not sure if Krupa's investor will allow us to post videos etc, but we will try to give basic data from the tests. The plugs should be in manufacturing shortly, although not any of the companies in the US or Bosch etc want to manufacture them for us because they last too long and they would not make any money from them (according to Bosch and others). Thankfully we have other options for production.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 08:29:03 PM
Hello Luc,

It would helpful if you could make a simple hand-drawing of the complete circuit so that we are not left speculating on this effect. It is important to knwo the exact figures of your leading coil ( L in Henry ), the max switch-amperage and volatage of the relais, values of the HV-Diodes and inductance of the primary ingnition-coil.

Also any digital-meter fails in showing the exact values while measuring pulse-modes. Although I accept your reluctance to get a bit more "scientific" I can assure you that it is very important to learn the minimum of methods known in electronics. I myself have lost a lage amount of time in "barking at the wrong tree" - so to say.

I agree on what nul-point was saying about your observation.

Input current is measured best be detecting the voltage-drop across a low-value resistor ( 1 Ohm, 25 Watt ) either with a true RMS meter in AC-mode before the rectifier or in DC-mode after the rectifier.

The link fo yours above does not work today, its says the server lead the enquiery around somewhere so it can never be answered

Anyway , first measure-methods have to be revised and a drawing would be helpful, so we can duplicate exactly.

Kator

Hi Kator,

I made a hand drawn circuit. If you or anyone else can make a clean one that would be great since I can include it at my first page as an update,
Updated, user name: Aka has cleaned the circuit (now below) Thanks Aka ;D

The Full Wave Bridge Rectifier is a standard off the self item 400v  5 amps or more if you wish.

The Air Core Charge Inductor I made is from a primary of a MOT that I cut out and recoiled it. The Inductor center opening is 38mm. The O.D. is 60mm and the width is 40mm. From what I can tell the Mag Wire is about 14 Gauge. The coils DC resistance is 0.4 Ohms and measures 2.23mH on my inductance meter.

The Relay is an Automotive 12vdc relay rated 40A/30A which is SPDT . I did not show the relay coil in the diagram since the black marker I was using is too large to show details. The relays rest position is on the bridge to cap. I use a 12vdc battery to activate the relay coil to discharge the cap to the coil and diode string.

The Capacitor is 6.8uf 250 AC (non polarized). I go this this cap out an old heavy wood 30" color TV unit. I don't know why but this cap takes the best peak charges and gives an amazing bang for its uF size ???  My capacitance meter says it is 6.9uf but gives the same kind of bang as my 22uf 350v polarized, which I also check on meter and it is actually 26uf. I don't understand that.

The Coil is an Automotive Coil made by Accel part on. 8140C. The Primary DC resistance is 1.3 Ohms and measures 6.46mH on inductance meter. Secondary DC resistance is 9.10 K Ohms and I cannot measure H on my meter.

The Diodes are a string of 6 of 1N5408 in series and are rated at 1000 volts at 3A each.

The Spark Plug used for spark gap is from a 3HP gas lawn mower engine that will be used for testing the circuit. Modifications to the plug are: I cut off the J electrode and also filed down the center electrode so both are at same level. With this mod. the Plug now has a 3mm gap. The plugs internal resistor has been removed and replaced with 3 pcs. of correct length 14 gauge solid copper wire to complete the contact.

I hope this is enough details for anyone to replicate.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 08:41:07 PM
Hi Luc  :)

I was wondering if there is any steam pressure develloped in the proces?
If so then maybe it is possible to directly drive turbines or the like or something in the o'l steam engine fashion at a low cost since we do not need to actually boil the water first?

I will catch you guys up on the experiments soon.
Marco.

Hi Marco,

nice to see you at this topic. The interesting thing about this effect is it stays cool, so steam is not apparent. I have sometimes seen a very small amount when using larger capacitors but not enough to make a turbine work on that for the energy in. The sound is much more, so If you had a resonator to amplify that and convert it to mechanical movement that would be worth looking into.

@starcruiser, thanks for looking at this topic and sharing ;) Please read the above and see if anything comes to mind. Maybe Keely could of done something with this. Where is Hans ???

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 22, 2008, 08:51:10 PM
hi Luc

[edit: sorry, wrote this before i saw you've posted a schematic]

i'm not sure that you've given me the value for C1 (the cap immediately following the bridge)?  you mention about the 6.8uF giving a louder bang, so i guess you're actually talking about C2

the cap C1, following the bridge gets charged to the peak voltage of the rectified AC anyway, and with suitable value for the cap should remain there, approx

it will have some ripple on the voltage each time the relay (or SS switch) charges C2 - but as long as C1 is sufficiently higher-valued than C2 then C1 won't lose too much voltage each time C2 gets charged  (it gets recharged back to peak on the next rectified AC half-cycle) - so, you could try, say, around 100uF for C1

really no need to synchronize cap charging to the rectified AC waveform - un-necessary complexity!

it's possible that the difference in bang-per-uF between your 6.8uF & 22uF caps could be due to different internal series resistance  (ESR) in the two caps (which might be greater in the polarised electrolytic than in the non-polarised cap - think of it as leaving some resistance in the spark plug, say)

if you stay with the relay as a switch, i'd recommend using D2 anyway, to help prolong its switch contact life - even if it doesn't show any benefit from extra flyback energy - i suggested HV diode but actually a 1N400x type would probably be ok - only has to be rated at just above peak rectified AC for its reverse voltage

thanks for the info about the LCDs/Faraday cage - was interested to see if there was a direct influence on the display crystal medium - but it sounds like its more an RF effect if it relies on the presence of the wires of the affected device - antenna action

on the general subject of water-plasma explosive force - have you ever seen any info about longitudinal force caused by current flow?

doesn't seem to be that widely known in conventional electro-physics, but wire can be made to disintegrate energetically under high current loads - it breaks into segments lengthways - apparently rail-gun experiments have to take this into account otherwise the rails get buckled outwards by the current across the sled/axles between the rails

so - i guess there is an equivalent lengthways force in ANY conductor (plasma/water/copper, etc) - though it might be of interest
[even later edit!: ...thinks - does this suggest firing the spark between the charged anode and the top of the piston - so the force can take effect and expand along the path of the plasma, rather than be fixed between the plug anode & cathode?!?]

[late edit:  ...just seen you've got your switch after the coil - can i suggest you try placing the coil AFTER the relay switch (as in my schematic, i think) & using D2 positioned & polarised as shown there - you certainly won't get any flyback energy from the coil if it's separated from C2 by the switch - other than by sparking across your relay switch - not good!]

cordialement
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 09:08:00 PM
We have used the MSD Blaster 2 and Blaster 3 on his plugs and they both work well, with the enhanced spark setup and without. Tests were run in the 20Hz to 300Hz range fired by a large Mosfet with snubbers on the output. Voltages from 10 to 150 volts were used and his plug seems to produce a more pronounced plasma compared to regular plugs. I have used up to 220uF flash caps but blew mosfets out under the larger capacitive discharges. I am switching to an SCR driven system like Lee's (AKA SMW1989A) for more robustness. We have also exploded water using the genuine Firestorm and the other brands and they work similar although the Firestorm explodes the water under much less energy than the others. We used Bosch platinum and many of the champion line and they just don't create the same plasma effect under the same energy levels. Almost appears to the eye that the Firestorm plugs create a ball of plasma inside the cage and you get flashes of flame? extending outside the cage as well. Similar to what you see in his earlier videos. Most of those tests were on run under 800mJ energy levels after the mosfets blew. We used the MSD ignition driver (Digital-6 Plus) which is half the energy rating we need. We have Crane cams drivers coming which are capable of 1.2 Joules. We will use those as a backup to the SCR driven and variac fed power supply we are building.

Once I have the large SCR bench test system up I will tell you of the results from the 2 to 6 joule range firing. Hopefully we can run constantly and really get some good test data from it. I'm not sure if Krupa's investor will allow us to post videos etc, but we will try to give basic data from the tests. The plugs should be in manufacturing shortly, although not any of the companies in the US or Bosch etc want to manufacture them for us because they last too long and they would not make any money from them (according to Bosch and others). Thankfully we have other options for production.

Thanks again for all the information. Have you seen my video on a 3/4" ball replica of a Krupa style plug? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPu7AI50w

I went through most of all the mosfet that I had collected during the tests. The IRF640 gave the best effect with my setup of the collection of mosfet's I had.

I listen to Mr. Krupa's new telephone interview. It was very informative. So they maybe made in Brazil.

Do you think you could talk Mr. Krupa and investors into sending me one sample so I can try it with my circuit?

Thanks for sharing this information.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 22, 2008, 09:20:24 PM
hi Luc

[edit: sorry, wrote this before i saw you've posted a schematic]

i'm not sure that you've given me the value for C1 (the cap immediately following the bridge)?  you mention about the 6.8uF giving a louder bang, so i guess you're actually talking about C2

the cap C1, following the bridge gets charged to the peak voltage of the rectified AC anyway, and with suitable value for the cap should remain there, approx (it gets recharged back to peak on the next rectified AC half-cycle)

it will have some ripple on the voltage each time the relay (or SS switch) charges C2 - but as long as C1 is sufficiently higher-valued than C2 then C1 won't lose too much voltage each time C2 gets charged (so, you could try, say, around 100uF for C1)

really no need to synchronize cap charging to the rectified AC waveform - un-necessary complexity!

it's possible that the difference in bang-per-uF between your 6.8uF & 22uF caps could be due to different internal series resistance  (ESR) in the two caps (which might be greater in the polarised electrolytic than in the non-polarised cap - think of it as leaving some resistance in the spark plug, say)

if you stay with the relay as a switch, i'd recommend using D2 anyway, to help prolong its switch contact life - even if it doesn't show any benefit from extra flyback energy - i suggested HV diode but actually a 1N400x type would probably be ok - only has to be rated at just above peak rectified AC for its reverse voltage

thanks for the info about the LCDs/Faraday cage - was interested to see if there was a direct influence on the display crystal medium - but it sounds like its more an RF effect if it relies on the presence of the wires of the affected device - antenna action

on the general subject of water-plasma explosive force - have you ever seen any info about longitudinal force caused by current flow?

doesn't seem to be that widely known in conventional electro-physics, but wire can be made to disintegrate energetically under high current loads - it breaks into segments lengthways - apparently rail-gun experiments have to take this into account otherwise the rails get buckled outwards by the current across the sled/axles between the rails

so - i guess there is an equivalent lengthways force in ANY conductor (plasma/water/copper, etc) - though it might be of interest

[late edit:  ...just seen you've got your switch after the coil - can i suggest you try placing the coil AFTER the relay switch (as in my schematic, i think) & using D2 positioned & polarised as shown there - you certainly won't get any flyback energy from the coil if it's separated from C2 by the switch - other than by sparking across your relay switch - not good!]

cordialement
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Hi Sandy,

just to be clear about my schematic I just posted. This is the complete circuit I have been using!...so no C2 at that time. All my tests have been with a single cap being flip flopped between bridge and coil.  I will try your recommendations of C2 and inductors in new position and report back later.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 22, 2008, 09:26:51 PM
hi Luc

yep - no problem - the component labels i've been using (R1, C1, C2, D2 etc) all refer to the schematic i posted earlier - before you posted what your actual circuit schematic is

for instance, the capacitor you tried directly after the bridge is C1 on my schematic but isn't included in your schematic - so C2 on my schematic is your 6.8uF cap

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 22, 2008, 11:46:13 PM
hi Luc

...apologies - when i posted my schematic yesterday (before your existing circuit was posted just above), i imagined that you were charging your 6u8F cap with the relay, then switching that cap into the auto-coil with a separate switch

as you're using a SPDT to do all the switching (and now i see why your new thread today is asking for a SS SPDT!) my schematic doesn't match your circuit arrangement - your auto-coil would prevent the 6u8F from charging in my schematic, if there's no second switch

so - if you keep to one SPDT switch (either mechanical or SS) your bridge to cap inductor has to be on the bridge side of the switch as you have it now and any protection diode would have to be in parallel with the inductor (+ve towards bridge) to help preserve the relay switch contacts - no reclaim of flyback energy with this arrangement

if you do decide to use Tr or MOSFET switching then you don't need to have this SPDT arrangement - you can have one switch between bridge & inductor - and the other switch between 6u8F cap & auto-coil

so then you get to add D2, as in my schematic, before the inductor to reclaim flyback energy

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tempest on August 22, 2008, 11:47:01 PM
I have followed this thread since it was first posted and have now finally read every post on the 34 pages... phew... it has been so exciting to see so many positive people all trying to get this working to make some difference in the world, so for that I wish to thank everyone

I am not very skilled in electronics or machining parts so I feel I am limited to what I can achieve but I can do what I can and will share anything I find



about the spark plugs... I have seen standard plugs (with resistor removed), homemade 2x nails spark gap, homemade plug, homemade firestorm plug for use in the experiment and they seem to work but I wanted to find some info on more nonstandard types that could be used with better effects for this circuit

I have drawn a diagram(attached) of a plug type that I would like to test but have no real way of doing so at the moment, it is based on what I understand from a plasma gasification unit and my thought is that with the gap set up along the length we can have a longer spark and more surface area along the walls for the water to become effected into the spark and hopefully have more power to drive a piston... it is drawn twice, the bottom version I was trying to shorten the plug so there is less volume of air that could be compressed and cause less pressure

the arrow in the 2d picture shows the water spray nozzle, the idea is that it would spray in between firings down the tube but have a valve that prevents any pressure from travelling back up the pipe, also the pipe would have to be insulated to prevent the spark grounding back up the water supply

from what I can tell this would be a new kind of spark plug... I have tried searching but didn't find anything like it so it would have to be made from scratch

let me know if anything like this exists or if you think it has problems with anything thanks

I once saw a spark plug like this that Stanley Meyer built, and I thought that misting the water before it get to the plug would help. Think of the table top ultrasonic misting fountains. Take the vapor from fountain and feed it to your plug. Your plug looks like a good design to try, I just need to figure out a cheap insulator that will stand up to the punishment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 23, 2008, 12:59:42 AM
. Your plug looks like a good design to try, I just need to figure out a cheap insulator that will stand up to the punishment.


Tempest



Check out this  page ,    starting at  reply 1014

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg114473.html#msg114473




gary 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on August 23, 2008, 03:40:32 AM
I made a hand drawn circuit. If you or anyone else can make a clean one that would be great since I can include it at my first page as an update.

I have cleaned the image for you, no changes have been made just straight lines and neat coils :)

if you need any changes let me know... its pretty easy to remake, infact any hand drawn circuits you need "cleaning" (in this topic) I can do for you
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 23, 2008, 04:20:32 AM
I have cleaned the image for you, no changes have been made just straight lines and neat coils :)

if you need any changes let me know... its pretty easy to remake, infact any hand drawn circuits you need "cleaning" (in this topic) I can do for you

Excellent work Aka ;) Thank you for the clean the diagram. I will replace the one above with yours

Luc

Added: I have updated the 1st post page with the new Drawing Aka has provided and also posted the component description.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108283.html#msg108283
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 23, 2008, 05:46:17 AM
hi Luc

...apologies - when i posted my schematic yesterday (before your existing circuit was posted just above), i imagined that you were charging your 6u8F cap with the relay, then switching that cap into the auto-coil with a separate switch

as you're using a SPDT to do all the switching (and now i see why your new thread today is asking for a SS SPDT!) my schematic doesn't match your circuit arrangement - your auto-coil would prevent the 6u8F from charging in my schematic, if there's no second switch

so - if you keep to one SPDT switch (either mechanical or SS) your bridge to cap inductor has to be on the bridge side of the switch as you have it now and any protection diode would have to be in parallel with the inductor (+ve towards bridge) to help preserve the relay switch contacts - no reclaim of flyback energy with this arrangement

if you do decide to use Tr or MOSFET switching then you don't need to have this SPDT arrangement - you can have one switch between bridge & inductor - and the other switch between 6u8F cap & auto-coil

so then you get to add D2, as in my schematic, before the inductor to reclaim flyback energy

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Hi Sandy, now :D I understand the communication differences ;) I am not stuck to the SPDT switch circuit. I'll try anything that my simple electronics understanding can handle :-\

Did you see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QmzePtUeU 
It is a solid state replication with scope shots made by user smw1998a of the Energetic Forum topic: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 23, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
hi Luc

thanks for the heads up on those vids - very interesting info from the scope trace of the capacitor


from this - and the vid of the spark with/without HV diodes & then also with/without water it looks to me at the moment like the increased strength of the spark is related mainly to the decrease in discharge time

scope trace on the cap doesn't show any evidence of extra energy introduced by diodes or water - just reduced discharge time

no scope traces available from auto-coil/spark gap so far - it's possible there could still be extra anomalous energy shown - but the decrease in discharge time is quite dramatic


so - i would guess that we're seeing something like Tesla observed in his energetic discharges: a strong 'radiant' event magnified by reducing the spark discharge time - same Energy in less Time = higher Power

at a guess, i would say it's possible that the high-voltage diode(s) intantaneously pre-biases the spark-gap from the voltage at top of the auto-coil primary, whilst the current builds up in the auto-coil primary (a relatively 'slow' operation, electrically speaking)

this maybe conditions the air in the gap to make it more susceptible to the discharge (as happens in a cloud-to-ground lightning strike) - lowering the air-path impedance somewhat?

then when the auto-coil transformer action has built up in the secondary, the air-gap provides a better conductance - higher current - faster discharge - the diodes need to be HV because there is now a much higher reverse voltage between top of secondary & top of primary

any other means of lowering that discharge path impedance (during the strike) is only going to increase the current / discharge rate - could water vapour be providing that action?

seems possible that the fine water mist droplets act as some kind of 'stepping stone' to divide the main spark gaps into lots of shorter spark gaps - water droplets now in a pre-biased polarised field?

if you have too much water then the system discharges through a continous water path directly & more 'gently' - you don't get the air rupture & breakdown effect of a spark gap - but the finer 'droplet - gap - droplet - gap' arrangement can act like a trigger condition for a higher power discharge - almost like a chain-reaction?

powerful enough now to start doing funky things with the composition of the water in the droplets, which now form part of the current path?  maybe

comments, anyone?

all the best
sandy

PS i'll try & get back to you later about separating the switching
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on August 23, 2008, 03:17:57 PM
Okay so i was trying to see the effect when using vacuum tubes and all the meters go funky.
I charged a 470u to 500 volts and discharged it thrue my hand...

M.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on August 23, 2008, 03:28:50 PM
Marco OUCH!! not good   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 23, 2008, 04:37:32 PM
Okay so i was trying to see the effect when using vacuum tubes and all the meters go funky.
I charged a 470u to 500 volts and discharged it thrue my hand...

M.

My God Marco :o... are you okay ???... I thought that was enough to kill someone.

Please let us know if you will be alright :'(

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: unity2zero on August 23, 2008, 06:02:51 PM
Luc

Durability tested your simple circuit design with the spark plug. I have it automatically run with a continuous synchronous water atomizing spray on it. It works well until about an hour later when the switching relay started to give way. Think should have an electronic switching circuit to take over this.

Regards

unity2zero
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on August 23, 2008, 07:34:54 PM
My God Marco :o... are you okay ???... I thought that was enough to kill someone.

Please let us know if you will be alright :'(

Luc

Men it really hurt and my body was shaking for two hours.
But i will be fine.  :)
I tried some high voltage vacuum tube rectifiers like the dy86 ,pd510 and the gy501 which can handle 18-25KV but they do have a warning on then for emitting X-rays so i held the geiger counter nearby.
The gy501 was the one that came best out of the test the heater only needs like 3 volts so i hooked it up to some battery's.
The dy86 burned out for some reason and it did not function long.

Anyway it all worked much better then using Silicon diodes which i was doing like half of the day.
I did not use any timing device i just placed a capacitor on the relay coil and switched the coil in series with it's own breaking contact , which works fine.
By varying the value of the capacitor the switch rate increases or decreases.
Also i did not use any mains or an inverter i just pulsed a simple 12 to 200v transformer from the battery which also works fine.

Marco.

(http://www.hupse.eu/radio/tube_images/DY86.jpg)
(http://www.hupse.eu/radio/tube_images/PD510.jpg)
(http://www.hupse.eu/radio/tube_images/GY501.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on August 23, 2008, 08:35:01 PM
Hello everyone,

  Nice work. 
   I found this forum thread about 3 days ago while trying to find some hydrogen fuel information.

   I've read every page of it. its remarkable what you have discovered.
   I,m gathering the parts to build the circuit now . I hope to have it working this evening.
   I,m no where near as knowledgeable as many of you here but I am willing to help any way I can.
   I do have a few Ideas but I"m just trying to get up to speed with you guys right now.
   Good luck and be safe.  Will post again when I get my circuit up and running.
 
      gourdman   



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 23, 2008, 11:19:38 PM
Luc

Durability tested your simple circuit design with the spark plug. I have it automatically run with a continuous synchronous water atomizing spray on it. It works well until about an hour later when the switching relay started to give way. Think should have an electronic switching circuit to take over this.

Regards

unity2zero

Hi unity2zero, thanks for sharing :D... you are correct!... the relay is not going to last. I have been asking for help on a solid state circuit since my electronic knowledge is very limited. Hopefully we will find a simple circuit that most could build to replace the relay. Once we find that it will be shared. If anyone would like to share (a simple circuit) that would do what a SPDT switch does please help. I started a topic for that here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5438.msg122872.html

Check what was suggested and if you know of a even simpler way please do share your circuit.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 23, 2008, 11:36:22 PM
Men it really hurt and my body was shaking for two hours.
But i will be fine.  :)
I tried some high voltage vacuum tube rectifiers like the dy86 ,pd510 and the gy501 which can handle 18-25KV but they do have a warning on then for emitting X-rays so i held the geiger counter nearby.
The gy501 was the one that came best out of the test the heater only needs like 3 volts so i hooked it up to some battery's.
The dy86 burned out for some reason and it did not function long.

Anyway it all worked much better then using Silicon diodes which i was doing like half of the day.
I did not use any timing device i just placed a capacitor on the relay coil and switched the coil in series with it's own breaking contact , which works fine.
By varying the value of the capacitor the switch rate increases or decreases.
Also i did not use any mains or an inverter i just pulsed a simple 12 to 200v transformer from the battery which also works fine.

Marco.

Thanks Marco for letting us know that you are fine ;)... I'm glad you are still with us ;D since I see you are doing very interesting tests that not many would do.

Since you are playing with high voltage here is a high voltage capacitor test video I just uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6oSekQykiw

Keep us updated ;) and thanks for sharing :)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 12:08:49 AM
@everyone

Here is a link to download a full size DV file of only the slow motion video part of the video I just posted above.

Link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MI18SMZ9

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 02:11:34 AM
Hello everyone,

  Nice work. 
   I found this forum thread about 3 days ago while trying to find some hydrogen fuel information.

   I've read every page of it. its remarkable what you have discovered.
   I,m gathering the parts to build the circuit now . I hope to have it working this evening.
   I,m no where near as knowledgeable as many of you here but I am willing to help any way I can.
   I do have a few Ideas but I"m just trying to get up to speed with you guys right now.
   Good luck and be safe.  Will post again when I get my circuit up and running.
 
      gourdman   

Hi and welcome :D gourdman, I hope you noticed to not bother getting an inverter for now and just power your Bridge from the wall outlet. Too many have fried inverters and since we are still developing the circuit I see no need for the inverter at this time.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 02:42:15 AM
@everyone,

the link below is a new uploaded video to inform all who maybe interested of the engine project I'm working on at this time.

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAyW21_L0is

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on August 24, 2008, 02:48:49 AM
@everyone

Here is a link to download a full size DV file of only the slow motion video part of the video I just posted above.

Link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MI18SMZ9

Luc

Thanks for that vid Luc. I'm glad that you mention safety along with your narration.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 04:37:41 AM
@everyone,

I think this is a great occasion to share this since the release of the water gasoline engine project video.

Here is a video done by YouTube user: "dreamyear"  demonstrating a 50/50 water gasoline mix burning very well and for a longer time than just gasoline alone.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP6kLaVyDBY

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on August 24, 2008, 06:03:15 AM
Thanks again for all the information. Have you seen my video on a 3/4" ball replica of a Krupa style plug? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPu7AI50w

I went through most of all the mosfet that I had collected during the tests. The IRF640 gave the best effect with my setup of the collection of mosfet's I had.

I listen to Mr. Krupa's new telephone interview. It was very informative. So they maybe made in Brazil.

Do you think you could talk Mr. Krupa and investors into sending me one sample so I can try it with my circuit?

Thanks for sharing this information.

Luc

I'm sure that will be possible once they are in production. We only have a few of them for our own testing at the moment. Good luck on the engine tests. Those should be very interesting.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 07:29:59 AM
Thanks :D for the reply UncleFester

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 24, 2008, 08:35:29 AM
Luc,

Here is a proposed very simple circuit for testing on your system.

The circuit works like this:
The 120 VAC is rectifyed through a diode bridge resulting in only positive pulses after the
bridge. The capacitor will charge up and when the capacitor voltage reach approx. 120 VDC
the Neon bulb will light sending a small current to the SCR trigger. The SCR will then dump
the capacitor charge into the ignition coil. The BY diode is there for back emf protection. The
5 watt resistor is a current limiter so that the SCR will survive.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 24, 2008, 10:15:54 AM
hi Luc

[Edit: i said i'd get back to you with an update on the SS mods you were looking to replace the relay with in your existing circuit - as i'm about to post this i see Groundloop has just posted an SCR-based schematic, so my suggestions may be redundant now but i'll post anyway in case you also decide to try your existing circuit with SS mods at any time]

i've updated my previous schematic to show how the solid state SPDT switch arrangement which Groundloop adapted for you
    (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5438.msg122802.html#msg122802) 
in your SS SPDT thread could be modified to split the switch into two and move your inductor between them

this would then enable you to use D2 to reclaim the flyback energy from the inductor into your 6u8F capacitor (C2) to boost the discharge as i was suggesting earlier

i've left the suggested bridge cap (C1) in place - this would give you maximum input charge to the 6u8F every strike

if you use R1 to protect C1 from damage due to in-rush current, try with 220R initially & vary C1 to the minimum capacitor value which still maximises charge volts on your 6u8F at your required strike rate

D3 is suggested to provide some protection to MOSFET Q2 from any flyback voltage from primary of T1 - if there's no significant flyback there, remove D3

(D2, D3 can be 1N400x type)

the source circuit which Groundloop adapted for you didn't seem to have any protection against overlap of switching voltages (to ensure that both outputs are not 'on' at same time) - might not be an issue depending on the actual switching signal circuit used, but suggest you check Q1 & Q2 gate drive signals on 2 channel scope (with no AC to Bridge), before allowing the FETs to switch real charge from bridge to transformer!

i think you could test this circuit arrangement below with a DPDT relay (as long as you've got 'break-before-make' contacts!) in place of the MOSFETS - in which case certainly include D3 (in addition to D2) to prolong relay switch contacts

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 24, 2008, 11:01:34 AM
Luc,

Attached is the same simple circuit with external trigger input.
Note: Adjust the SCR trigger voltage BEFORE switching on circuit.
This circuit can be used with external trigger in an engine enviroment.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 06:29:10 PM
Luc,

Here is a proposed very simple circuit for testing on your system.

The circuit works like this:
The 120 VAC is rectifyed through a diode bridge resulting in only positive pulses after the
bridge. The capacitor will charge up and when the capacitor voltage reach approx. 120 VDC
the Neon bulb will light sending a small current to the SCR trigger. The SCR will then dump
the capacitor charge into the ignition coil. The BY diode is there for back emf protection. The
5 watt resistor is a current limiter so that the SCR will survive.

Groundloop.

Wow :D Groundloop,

thank you for all the great work you have done ;D  I can see that this is a very simple circuit which those with no or little EE will be able to build, including me ;D

Excellent work ;)  Thanks for sharing.

I will also share your circuit at the Energetic Forum...I hope that is okay with you?

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 06:42:02 PM
hi Luc

[Edit: i said i'd get back to you with an update on the SS mods you were looking to replace the relay with in your existing circuit - as i'm about to post this i see Groundloop has just posted an SCR-based schematic, so my suggestions may be redundant now but i'll post anyway in case you also decide to try your existing circuit with SS mods at any time]

i've updated my previous schematic to show how the solid state SPDT switch arrangement which Groundloop adapted for you
    (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5438.msg122802.html#msg122802) 
in your SS SPDT thread could be modified to split the switch into two and move your inductor between them

this would then enable you to use D2 to reclaim the flyback energy from the inductor into your 6u8F capacitor (C2) to boost the discharge as i was suggesting earlier

i've left the suggested bridge cap (C1) in place - this would give you maximum input charge to the 6u8F every strike

if you use R1 to protect C1 from damage due to in-rush current, try with 220R initially & vary C1 to the minimum capacitor value which still maximises charge volts on your 6u8F at your required strike rate

D3 is suggested to provide some protection to MOSFET Q2 from any flyback voltage from primary of T1 - if there's no significant flyback there, remove D3

(D2, D3 can be 1N400x type)

the source circuit which Groundloop adapted for you didn't seem to have any protection against overlap of switching voltages (to ensure that both outputs are not 'on' at same time) - might not be an issue depending on the actual switching signal circuit used, but suggest you check Q1 & Q2 gate drive signals on 2 channel scope (with no AC to Bridge), before allowing the FETs to switch real charge from bridge to transformer!

i think you could test this circuit arrangement below with a DPDT relay (as long as you've got 'break-before-make' contacts!) in place of the MOSFETS - in which case certainly include D3 (in addition to D2) to prolong relay switch contacts

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Wow :D also excellent work on your part Sandy!

thank you for taking all this extra time to help the project!... you guys are God sends. Many have been asking me for a SS switching and I think now we have some good and simple stuff to share.

I will also share this with the Energetic Forum, I hope that is fine with you Sandy?

Once again, thanks and God Bless

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on August 24, 2008, 06:45:07 PM
hey men i tried to post over there but i can't.
dunno what's happening..
M.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 07:25:35 PM
hey men i tried to post over there but i can't.
dunno what's happening..
M.

Hi Marco, are you referring to the Energetic Forum?...if so, after you apply for membership you will not be able to post until they send you an approval of your application. Unfortunately it's not an instantaneous approval system like here at OU. If you need help to speed up the approval send me a PM.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 24, 2008, 07:35:57 PM
hi Luc

you're welcome - no problem about sharing those suggestions ...don't forget they're just extending the SS SPDT circuit Groundloop adapted for you, so the EF members will need that too, for the MOSFET gate switching

  (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5438.msg122802.html#msg122802) 

looking forward to seeing how the water-plasma ideas develop

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 24, 2008, 08:54:43 PM
Luc,

I have no problem with sharing. Everything I post on the Internet is free ware.

Good luck with your research.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on August 24, 2008, 09:02:11 PM
Okay so here is a little visualization of what is happening.  :)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 24, 2008, 09:08:23 PM
hi Luc

you're welcome - no problem about sharing those suggestions ...don't forget they're just extending the SS SPDT circuit Groundloop adapted for you, so the EF members will need that too, for the MOSFET gate switching

  (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5438.msg122802.html#msg122802) 

looking forward to seeing how the water-plasma ideas develop

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Hi Sandy, thanks for making it clear for the MOSFET switching.

Since you mention switching! I have a question about it. Do you think inductor (L1) would have a hot spot (power efficiency) if we had the ability to adjusted the duty cycle of Q1?  if so, do you think that same duty cycle would work on the discharge of Q2 ?  if not. then two 555 circuits would be needed?  if so, then is there a way (circuit) to keep them from not overlapping?

Sorry for all the chain questions.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 24, 2008, 10:22:17 PM
Hi Sandy, thanks for making it clear for the MOSFET switching.

Since you mention switching! I have a question about it. Do you think inductor (L1) would have a hot spot (power efficiency) if we had the ability to adjusted the duty cycle of Q1?  if so, do you think that same duty cycle would work on the discharge of Q2 ?  if not. then two 555 circuits would be needed?  if so, then is there a way (circuit) to keep them from not overlapping?

Sorry for all the chain questions.

Luc


Luc

Most  of the   experments I  am planning  require a PMW with  controllable frequency   pulse width and   voltage . 

From  the  data sheet for   the LM 555       the second  circuit example is for   a   astable operation

The   frequecy and  and    dwell time  can be set  with  Rb ad C1

The   output   would go to the trigger  of the  second timer   set up as example 4      ( PMW )

The   bias of   the input  pin     would  set the   pulse  width .


I  was planning on using  a  556  chip ........ 2  555s on  a single  chip.


gary




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on August 24, 2008, 10:22:52 PM
Marco no wonder those little guys BITE
Luc this man seems to close the loop at the end [GEET}
Chet   
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uboKv7lbAbY&feature=related
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on August 25, 2008, 12:07:56 AM
@ all who are working on small engines/plasma spark

for those moving towards a blended fuel mix/gas vaporization/hho for the next step in getting a small engine to run,
I decided to start up a new thread to explore/brainstorm the concept of emulsifying Brown's gas in a liquid.

There's a Japanese/Korean company touting the breakthrough and boasting what they're calling em-fuel... and
it sounds like they've managed to trap and stabilize HHO into microbubbles within a liquid... in their case, kerosene/diesel and
are running this mix with NO modifications to furnaces and engines. Their using a 50/50 mix.

I wonder how this emulsion would respond to a plasma spark? Since we are exploding H20 could we emulsify a 90/10 mix and combust with plasma?
Could we emulsify HHO into water only?  Could we emulsify into gasoline?  They're doing it with something their calling a "nanomizer" and trapping
Hydrogen and Oxygen separately into bubbles less than a tenth micron in size..... and the gas WON'T come out of solution once trapped.... even under a centerfuge!

Please feel free to take a look ... it's been bugging me for days!!!  I think this could help ALL water projects if we figure this out and replicate.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5450.msg123278/topicseen.html#msg123278

Sorry if this seems off topic  :-[  but i see relevance to many efforts finding a home here on this thread.... if you want to chat or input to this topic please bring it
over to the new thread..thanks,
randy  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 25, 2008, 12:16:30 AM
Marco no wonder those little guys BITE
Luc this man seems to close the loop at the end [GEET}
Chet   
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uboKv7lbAbY&feature=related

Hi Chet, yes he is closing the loop ;D. Frederic Gauthier is a French Canadian (like me) and lives a few hours away from me. I contacted him about a year ago when I saw his video. He personally confirm to me that the loop was closed.

This is why I have confidence with the partial GEET system I'm building and proposing.

Here is part of a reply I posted at the Energetic Forum:

The reason I don't want to use the carburetor (other than just the throttle plate) for fuel control is they don't vaporize fuel. My belief is, if you want optimal ignition (close to 100% burn) with minimal energy to ignite it (plasma spark) I think having gases in a vapor state will burn with less energy than a gas in liquid state. I could be wrong since I'm also not a chemist. The system I propose will use the energy normally wasted (exhaust) to prepare the input fuel (water & gas) in many ways. One is, if we are imputing water vapor then we are also outputting water vapor in the exhaust. So by using the exhaust we are recollecting the water, using the heat to heat the water for it to turn to vapor, using the the exhaust air to vigorously mix the water and fuel together with the bubbles, using the Stainless pot scrubbers to brake the bubbles over their large surface area which will turn liquid to vapor very easily and ready for intake. I love this system since it is what kind of goes on in Nature!...Water (fuel), Sun (exhaust heat), Earth (scrubber surface), Lightning, (plasma spark) and Rain (collecting exhaust output)

I think that when we get closer to mimicking Nature in our inventions, the closer we will be to free energy.


Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 25, 2008, 12:24:24 AM

Luc

Most  of the   experments I  am planning  require a PMW with  controllable frequency   pulse width and   voltage . 

From  the  data sheet for   the LM 555       the second  circuit example is for   a   astable operation

The   frequecy and  and    dwell time  can be set  with  Rb ad C1

The   output   would go to the trigger  of the  second timer   set up as example 4      ( PMW )

The   bias of   the input  pin     would  set the   pulse  width .


I  was planning on using  a  556  chip ........ 2  555s on  a single  chip.


gary

Thanks for sharing that Gary ;) it answers a few questions. Now just the inductor question :-\

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 25, 2008, 12:30:39 AM
@ all who are working on small engines/plasma spark

for those moving towards a blended fuel mix/gas vaporization/hho for the next step in getting a small engine to run,
I decided to start up a new thread to explore/brainstorm the concept of emulsifying Brown's gas in a liquid.

There's a Japanese/Korean company touting the breakthrough and boasting what they're calling em-fuel... and
it sounds like they've managed to trap and stabilize HHO into microbubbles within a liquid... in their case, kerosene/diesel and
are running this mix with NO modifications to furnaces and engines. Their using a 50/50 mix.

I wonder how this emulsion would respond to a plasma spark? Since we are exploding H20 could we emulsify a 90/10 mix and combust with plasma?
Could we emulsify HHO into water only?  Could we emulsify into gasoline?  They're doing it with something their calling a "nanomizer" and trapping
Hydrogen and Oxygen separately into bubbles less than a tenth micron in size..... and the gas WON'T come out of solution once trapped.... even under a centerfuge!

Please feel free to take a look ... it's been bugging me for days!!!  I think this could help ALL water projects if we figure this out and replicate.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5450.msg123278/topicseen.html#msg123278

Sorry if this seems off topic  :-[  but i see relevance to many efforts finding a home here on this thread.... if you want to chat or input to this topic please bring it
over to the new thread..thanks,
randy  :)

Excellent :D idea Randy to start a topic on this. Much of this may soon tie together we may find. It is good though that we keep it separate for now.

Thanks for posting this information here and I ask for all to share and support Randy's (goldenequity) important topic.

Good one man ;) I also just love the timing of it all.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 25, 2008, 03:50:25 AM
hi Luc

...replying about switching issues related to your inductor between bridge & 6u8F cap:

from my experiments with similar circuit (pulse charge cap via inductor then separate discharge from cap through following load) i found there is a very small range of acceptable 'charge' times for a particular coil at a required voltage whilst the 'discharge' time from the cap could be varied quite significantly over a wide range


the issue for the inductor seems to be this: if the 'charge' pulse width is too short for a particular inductor & voltage then the input energy is still being used to setup the inductor's magnetic field and it doesn't transfer the maximum possible voltage to the cap

on the other hand, if the 'charge' pulse is too long then there is unecessary 'waste' of energy when maximum voltage has been reached across the cap and there is I-squared-R loss in the copper of the inductor winding


so for my inductor/voltage parameters (approx 2R of 0.45mm magnet wire, random-wound on 12mm x 20mm approx ferrite / 8V) the 'sweet spot' charge time is around 180uS - less than this & my cap doesn't charge to 8V - more than this i start losing efficiency - and with a recorded efficiency of just 120% i certainly don't want to lose any of that precious extra 20%!!  :)

my approach is to vary the PWM by separately varying the 'charge' time with one control and the 'discharge' time with a second control - that way i can keep the inductor switching at optimal 'sweet spot' and effectively vary the frequency of operation by varying the 'discharge' time


i think there is one more important timing issue for your circuit than for mine, however - and it is because the load on your switched cap is another 'inductance' - the auto-coil

i think that you will find there is also an issue of field setup time for the auto-coil Xfr primary as with your bridge-to-cap inductor: there is likely a similar 'sweet spot' setup time - only in this case the field setup time will relate to the amount of charge (hence energy) transferred from the switched cap into the primary

in your case you've found that using your 6u8F cap gives you optimum results - smaller cap values (or higher cap value with more ESR loss) doesn't enable the primary to setup up so much input field (hence secondary output is smaller)

larger switched cap values take longer to charge to the same voltage & use more energy - not all of which perhaps gets transferred to the secondary & therefore the spark gap

we've seen from the video link you shared (user swbNN?) the scope trace on the switched cap input to the auto-coil showed that using HV diodes from top of primary to top of secondary and water spray into spark gap significantly reduces discharge time into the spark gap and therefore increases the spark Power for the same energy

i would say then that with a given switched cap value getting charged to a maximum input voltage from the AC bridge/coil combo then there will be a 'sweet spot' minimum discharge period into the auto-coil - too short & the spark energy will be reduced - any longer than this will just become an inter-spark delay (which will become part of the ICE firing cycle anyway, i guess?)

in summary: for a given inductor / switched cap / auto-coil arrangement: adjust initial 'charge' time to just enough to get max charge voltage, no longer - then adjust 'discharge' time to just get max spark power, no longer - then adjust remaining inter-spark time to get required frequency of spark

hope this helps

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 25, 2008, 04:49:14 AM
hi Luc

...replying about switching issues related to your inductor between bridge & 6u8F cap:

from my experiments with similar circuit (pulse charge cap via inductor then separate discharge from cap through following load) i found there is a very small range of acceptable 'charge' times for a particular coil at a required voltage whilst the 'discharge' time from the cap could be varied quite significantly over a wide range


the issue for the inductor seems to be this: if the 'charge' pulse width is too short for a particular inductor & voltage then the input energy is still being used to setup the inductor's magnetic field and it doesn't transfer the maximum possible voltage to the cap

on the other hand, if the 'charge' pulse is too long then there is unecessary 'waste' of energy when maximum voltage has been reached across the cap and there is I-squared-R loss in the copper of the inductor winding


so for my inductor/voltage parameters (approx 2R of 0.45mm magnet wire, random-wound on 12mm x 20mm approx ferrite / 8V) the 'sweet spot' charge time is around 180uS - less than this & my cap doesn't charge to 8V - more than this i start losing efficiency - and with a recorded efficiency of just 120% i certainly don't want to lose any of that precious extra 20%!!  :)

my approach is to vary the PWM by separately varying the 'charge' time with one control and the 'discharge' time with a second control - that way i can keep the inductor switching at optimal 'sweet spot' and effectively vary the frequency of operation by varying the 'discharge' time


i think there is one more important timing issue for your circuit than for mine, however - and it is because the load on your switched cap is another 'inductance' - the auto-coil

i think that you will find there is also an issue of field setup time for the auto-coil Xfr primary as with your bridge-to-cap inductor: there is likely a similar 'sweet spot' setup time - only in this case the field setup time will relate to the amount of charge (hence energy) transferred from the switched cap into the primary

in your case you've found that using your 6u8F cap gives you optimum results - smaller cap values (or higher cap value with more ESR loss) doesn't enable the primary to setup up so much input field (hence secondary output is smaller)

larger switched cap values take longer to charge to the same voltage & use more energy - not all of which perhaps gets transferred to the secondary & therefore the spark gap

we've seen from the video link you shared (user swbNN?) the scope trace on the switched cap input to the auto-coil showed that using HV diodes from top of primary to top of secondary and water spray into spark gap significantly reduces discharge time into the spark gap and therefore increases the spark Power for the same energy

i would say then that with a given switched cap value getting charged to a maximum input voltage from the AC bridge/coil combo then there will be a 'sweet spot' minimum discharge period into the auto-coil - too short & the spark energy will be reduced - any longer than this will just become an inter-spark delay (which will become part of the ICE firing cycle anyway, i guess?)

in summary: for a given inductor / switched cap / auto-coil arrangement: adjust initial 'charge' time to just enough to get max charge voltage, no longer - then adjust 'discharge' time to just get max spark power, no longer - then adjust remaining inter-spark time to get required frequency of spark

hope this helps

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Excellent Sandy,

this is great help and confirms what I thought would happen. Each step and components of the circuit will needs to be tuned before one can achieve a high level of efficiency.

I am not completely clear on this " (approx 2R of 0.45mm magnet wire, random-wound on 12mm x 20mm approx ferrite / 8V) "

What does 2R stand for in layman terms?

you say the 0.45mm mag wire is random-wound!... does that mean it is not nicely wound next to each wire row by row like a coil?  if so, it is somewhat loose and just quickly wound like if you would wind twine on a stick?  if so, have found this to give a better effect (efficiency)?

and last, what is / 8V stand for in layman terms?

I really appreciate all the information and circuit diagrams you have shared in this topic Sandy. And I am sure many are in the background just reading and learning even though they don't post. I know I mostly did that when I first came to this Forum some years ago.

All this to say that your contribution is more then we can realize.

Thank you for your great service to humanity.

Luc


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: professor on August 25, 2008, 06:14:48 AM
Hi
You might want to reverse the BY255
Tnx
Professor


Luc,

Attached is the same simple circuit with external trigger input.
Note: Adjust the SCR trigger voltage BEFORE switching on circuit.
This circuit can be used with external trigger in an engine enviroment.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on August 25, 2008, 06:42:25 AM
Hi all

Im new here so go easy on me  ;D

I saw the circuit yesterday, bought all the stuff from maplin. The circuit is based on gotoluc simplified circuit as posted on page 1

The parts are :

2x 1,000uF 200V capacitors (pull from an old PC ATX PSU)
Wipac CL300 ignition coil (not sure what car is for, I bought the cheapest)
6x 1N5408 diodes
12V power relay
240-110VAC transformer (45W UK-USA converter)
KBPC35-04 bridge rectifier

Im just basically charging the capacitor by energizing the relay coil, on release the charge is dumped into the ignition coil.

I was originally using a 47uF 400V capacitor but that didnt do much. So I used 2 of those, result got better. I finally decided to pull out the 2 caps from the old ATX PSU I had lying around, used short thick speaker cables together with the power relay. Finally a big bang and lots of purple flash is produced, it started to hurt my eyes after a couple of tries, I have to turn my back when firing.

So far so good, next step is to spray water, that made the sound much more snappier and bigger orange flash. Sounds good, I can definately hear explosion there.

Spraying the sparks with water sometimes drown it and refuse to spark, here comes a small fog machine for consistent results. Immersed in a polystyrene cup with water, made 2 holes to pass the nails.

The fog machine create a small fountain and sometimes hit the nails so I had to cover it such that only the mist get to the nails, again excellent results. Ignore the red light thats comming the fog machines LED.

I wasnt convince its creating explosion, place a small strip of polystyrene just above the nails, bang, big orange flash,  piece of polystrene did not move.  :-\

Next step, I use a syringe, put 2 enameled copper wire through and sealed with plastic glue then gap the wires inside accordingly. Fill it with mist, then compress it. same results, nothing moves. Sound like massive explosion but definately nothing is happening there.

I was so excited to build the electronics for it, I feel that I cant move on until Im convinced a real explosion is happening.

 :(

Am I missing something here?

In the mean time, Ill be doing more reading and testing.

 :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 25, 2008, 07:09:26 AM
professor,

No, the BY255 is correct in the circuit drawing. The BY255 is used as a "free wheeling" diode to
protect the TIC106D from back emf voltage spike. Look at the circuit drawing again. The capacitor
will be charged with plus voltage facing the TIC106D. When the SCR fires the plus voltage will
go to the coil into the bottom. At this time the BY255 is closed. When the pulse fire is done the
coil will flip polarity (back emf voltage) and the BY255 will then open and take care of that.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on August 25, 2008, 07:13:27 AM
Luc,

Attached is the same simple circuit with external trigger input.
Note: Adjust the SCR trigger voltage BEFORE switching on circuit.
This circuit can be used with external trigger in an engine enviroment.

Groundloop.
@Groundloop
May I ask a silly question? How can I measure SCR trigger voltage? Should I measure voltage between G and K pin of SCR when 120 VAC is supplied to the circuit?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 25, 2008, 07:36:19 AM
bxngoc,

No measure with no input power. You use a oscope and measure between the gate and katode. Then you provide a 5 volt pulsed
voltage to the ferrite transformer. Adjust the 10K pot for approx. 0,9 volt on the gate. Another method
is first to adjust the 10K down to the katode level. Then switch on the circuit and carefully adjust
the 10K pot until the SCR starts to trigger.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on August 25, 2008, 08:29:30 AM
Great thank to Groundloop.
You're wizard with electronics. I take this opportunity to learn from you because I'm not a EE. I'm just an IT guy. BTW How far have you done with Telsa switch circuit? Have you got OU yet? I've download your schematic and source but not replicated yet. I'm learning to program PIC microcontroller now.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 25, 2008, 09:34:53 AM
hi Luc

thanks for the kind words - i'm glad to help if i can

not really sure that i have much to offer, but as the other guys pointed out to you & me earlier there is a close similarity in this particular part of your switching circuit between our two projects (although they're being used in very different applications)

...sorry for the confusion over some of those circuit details above

i used 2R to indicate 2 ohms (i don't have the ohms symbol)

yes, the coil wind is exactly as you describe - "not nicely wound next to each wire row by row like a coil  ...somewhat loose and just quickly wound like if you would wind twine on a stick"

it's not mechanically loose tho' because i tape between each layer (about 4 or 5 turns per layer - the ferrite is only 20mm long approx) so i get a short fat coil

i've tried various hand-wound coils and the most important factor - for my test - is that the copper resistance stays low (just a few ohms) - i used random-wind method just to reduce the coil capacitance - i only want to store mag-field energy in the coil which i can then reclaim with the flyback diode (D2)

i haven't done any tests yet to compare the efficiency of the random-wound coil with my tight-wound coils - they seem mostly equivalent so it hasn't been an issue so far

however, the coil i need is small compared to the one you're using - so it may make a much bigger difference in your application if the coils is tight-wound or random-wound

it's the sort of thing you can test after optimising the rest of the circuit operation - then you can go back & just change that one thing and see if your 'optimal' results get worse or improve


the example info inside the brackets relates to the parameters i mentioned outside the brackets: "my inductor/voltage parameters" - so the / 8V just gives the "voltage" part of that pair of parameters (no division involved)
 
i mentioned the voltage in my circuit example because my application doesn't use the high voltages that the water-plasma experiment needs and so my particular 'charge' time should be seen as relevant only to my low-voltage circuit - your optimal time may turn out to be very different due to either difference in inductance or difference in voltage levels

thanks for the heads-up on the confusion over my info - hope this makes it easier to see what i was trying to say  :)

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: foxwhisper on August 25, 2008, 09:46:50 AM
Hi guys, I'm a newbie to this great site so pardon me for my ignorance. have been playing around with plasma sparks/ water vapour with some interesting effects  but have just read PowerLabs 'reasearch' on hv water atomization where no pressure build up or expansion  was detected during discharge. my question is, as  an ICE relies on expansion of gases to work, would the 'shockwave' from the water explosion replicate a gasoline explosion? any feedback greatly appreciated.

foxwhisper.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 25, 2008, 09:47:05 AM
@Chris31 ,
Hi, there,
I am at the same you are :) I can achieve visible explosion but the force is not enough for moving the piston.

Anybody here had the same issues? Had beat them ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on August 25, 2008, 10:17:05 AM
@Chris31 ,
Hi, there,
I am at the same you are :) I can achieve visible explosion but the force is not enough for moving the piston.

Anybody here had the same issues? Had beat them ?


Hi

I finally have reached page 21 of this thread, still alot to read LOL.

Callanan at post 74 showed it > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OTCqws_hsc

This is the stage I want to get to before replacing the relay with MOSFETs.

Im not sure if its a problem with my circuit, or maybe this just does not work unless its tried with compress air/water like inside the engine. If this is the case then Ill go ahead and get myself a mower/RC engine to play with  8)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 25, 2008, 10:22:00 AM
Hi

I finally have reached page 21 of this thread, still alot to read LOL.

Callanan at post 74 showed it > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OTCqws_hsc

This is the stage I want to get to before replacing the relay with MOSFETs.

Im not sure if its a problem with my circuit, or maybe this just does not work unless its tried with compress air/water like inside the engine. If this is the case then Ill go ahead and get myself a mower/RC engine to play with  8)
Thanks for pointing me out that video. I was just staring at it too :). He's been using 500uf/400v which is about 40J charge while I use capacitor at 23uf and bigger engine chamber. Hope the charge is the key. Tonight I am going to try again (with 2x capacitors).

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on August 25, 2008, 10:37:04 AM
Thanks for pointing me out that video. I was just staring at it too :). He's been using 500uf/400v which is about 40J charge while I use capacitor at 23uf and bigger engine chamber. Hope the charge is the key. Tonight I am going to try again (with 2x capacitors).



Im using 2x 1,000uF 200V so thats plenty.

Try putting a small piece of paper on top of the spark gap, it should atleast fly off if there is an explosion, are you getting that?
Thats what I expect to happen on my setup in open air, unless Im missing something. The polystyrene foam didnt even move LOL, just plenty of flash and bang.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: foxwhisper on August 25, 2008, 11:26:46 AM
Yep, tried that Chris31,getting really good spark & noise but next to nil reaction, even tried a short cylinder over the plug blocking the end with paper & rubber band.Still no joy! think of looking at another concept as can't think of where I've gone wrong.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 25, 2008, 11:33:01 AM
hi all

since there is supposedly a longitudinal force in the direction of high-current flow, has anyone with a 'nail-type' spark gap seen any evidence of the gap electrodes being forced apart?

thanks
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 25, 2008, 12:14:33 PM
Im using 2x 1,000uF 200V so thats plenty.

Try putting a small piece of paper on top of the spark gap, it should atleast fly off if there is an explosion, are you getting that?
Thats what I expect to happen on my setup in open air, unless Im missing something. The polystyrene foam didnt even move LOL, just plenty of flash and bang.
Well you're having big charge (40J). But at least you should having the foam jumping... I am able to push paper :D
How do you pour water into the spark plug the water. I'd made several tests closing a spark plug into glass (plastic one!) full with water. Most of the times there was a just a big bangs and shortage (because of the water) at the spark plug, but some times I was achieve noticable explosion.
Still whole "explosive" subject is big question to me, a lot of work to be done.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 25, 2008, 12:23:15 PM
bxngoc,

My Tesla switch did not work on ANY frequency.

See the Tesla switch thread. (Sorry Luc for the off topic post.)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on August 25, 2008, 02:25:41 PM
Hey guys, I'm playing with Plasma Spark for a month now...

But I get very very very bad misfire...

Any ideas??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on August 25, 2008, 02:35:58 PM
Hey guys, I'm playing with Plasma Spark for a month now...

But I get very very very bad misfire...

Any ideas??
Reasons might be:
1) HV misfires
2) not enough power to charge the big capacitors (need for more bulbs)
3) spark plug react surface is dirty
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on August 25, 2008, 04:12:33 PM
For those who are not getting much for a explosion, I would try using negatively charged water and then test your explosion levels again.

 I would also like to know if you all are testing the explosions under a compression and if so, you may want to raise the compression levels until you find the one that works best. The average engine compression ratio may not be high enough when using water as a fuel.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 25, 2008, 06:28:55 PM
Hi all

Im new here so go easy on me  ;D

I saw the circuit yesterday, bought all the stuff from maplin. The circuit is based on gotoluc simplified circuit as posted on page 1

The parts are :

2x 1,000uF 200V capacitors (pull from an old PC ATX PSU)
Wipac CL300 ignition coil (not sure what car is for, I bought the cheapest)
6x 1N5408 diodes
12V power relay
240-110VAC transformer (45W UK-USA converter)
KBPC35-04 bridge rectifier

Im just basically charging the capacitor by energizing the relay coil, on release the charge is dumped into the ignition coil.

I was originally using a 47uF 400V capacitor but that didnt do much. So I used 2 of those, result got better. I finally decided to pull out the 2 caps from the old ATX PSU I had lying around, used short thick speaker cables together with the power relay. Finally a big bang and lots of purple flash is produced, it started to hurt my eyes after a couple of tries, I have to turn my back when firing.

So far so good, next step is to spray water, that made the sound much more snappier and bigger orange flash. Sounds good, I can definately hear explosion there.

Spraying the sparks with water sometimes drown it and refuse to spark, here comes a small fog machine for consistent results. Immersed in a polystyrene cup with water, made 2 holes to pass the nails.

The fog machine create a small fountain and sometimes hit the nails so I had to cover it such that only the mist get to the nails, again excellent results. Ignore the red light thats comming the fog machines LED.

I wasnt convince its creating explosion, place a small strip of polystyrene just above the nails, bang, big orange flash,  piece of polystrene did not move.  :-\

Next step, I use a syringe, put 2 enameled copper wire through and sealed with plastic glue then gap the wires inside accordingly. Fill it with mist, then compress it. same results, nothing moves. Sound like massive explosion but definately nothing is happening there.

I was so excited to build the electronics for it, I feel that I cant move on until Im convinced a real explosion is happening.

 :(

Am I missing something here?

In the mean time, Ill be doing more reading and testing.

 :)

Hi Chris31,

thank you for posting your results, observations and pictures of your setup which looks very good. Great job there ;)

@everyone,

today I see many of you sharing very similar results. You are observing an explosion event when water is added but cannot seem to be able to measure an explosive pressure.

We are not yet understanding why this is since since most of us don't have a million dollar lab to test with. We know the spark process is very quick and some are quite convinced that as quickly as it explodes it will also implode.

It has also been observed that the water and spark event stays cold. So if we know water will expand with heat and the process stays cold we could conclude that there would be no expansion results.

What we need to do is change our thinking. We all want a quick fix for our combustion engines and are too focus on just that. I can tell you that combustion engines are killing our World and you know that. So if we know that, then why not try and think of other ways to use this effect? I'm not saying that I have the answers because I don't. All what I do is share what I find and ask you do the same. By doing this maybe someone could think or accidentally hit on a great use for this effect.

I have proposed and I am building at this time (well not right now since I'm writing this message, right!) a half GEET plasma combustion engine with great hope that by emulsifying the water with some fuel and the plasma spark should give a very good results in a combustion engine.

How many of you have submitted a proposal to use this effect since you have built the circuit and had time to observe the effect???...How many of you have looked at goldenequity new topic on emulsifying water and fuel???... How many of you have seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI54ZQqw5Ps&feature=related  ?...How many of you have read this post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg123291.html#msg123291 ?...How many of you understand understand what the hell Luc is talking about?... How many of you want to cut home heating and car fuel consumption by 50% or more?

So lets use what we have (plasma spark) and expand with what is proposed! or propose your own ideas.

If you chose to conclude that there is no expansion pressure and therefore an ICE won't work with this spark circuit and decide to move on to another topic!... then I'll tell you your attitude is what has and will keep us where we are. I'll also tell you that to move on will bring you no better fruit.

A wise man once told me....If you are looking for water and start digging a well and after some time you find no water and decide to start digging at another place and so on, how can you expect to find water? ...It is only when you have steady faith and stick to the task that you will reach the water.

Understand our Nature and you will reap its benefits.

I will be building the engine for the next 3 days and not moderating the tread.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 25, 2008, 06:37:13 PM
hi Luc

thanks for the kind words - i'm glad to help if i can

not really sure that i have much to offer, but as the other guys pointed out to you & me earlier there is a close similarity in this particular part of your switching circuit between our two projects (although they're being used in very different applications)

...sorry for the confusion over some of those circuit details above

i used 2R to indicate 2 ohms (i don't have the ohms symbol)

yes, the coil wind is exactly as you describe - "not nicely wound next to each wire row by row like a coil  ...somewhat loose and just quickly wound like if you would wind twine on a stick"

it's not mechanically loose tho' because i tape between each layer (about 4 or 5 turns per layer - the ferrite is only 20mm long approx) so i get a short fat coil

i've tried various hand-wound coils and the most important factor - for my test - is that the copper resistance stays low (just a few ohms) - i used random-wind method just to reduce the coil capacitance - i only want to store mag-field energy in the coil which i can then reclaim with the flyback diode (D2)

i haven't done any tests yet to compare the efficiency of the random-wound coil with my tight-wound coils - they seem mostly equivalent so it hasn't been an issue so far

however, the coil i need is small compared to the one you're using - so it may make a much bigger difference in your application if the coils is tight-wound or random-wound

it's the sort of thing you can test after optimising the rest of the circuit operation - then you can go back & just change that one thing and see if your 'optimal' results get worse or improve


the example info inside the brackets relates to the parameters i mentioned outside the brackets: "my inductor/voltage parameters" - so the / 8V just gives the "voltage" part of that pair of parameters (no division involved)
 
i mentioned the voltage in my circuit example because my application doesn't use the high voltages that the water-plasma experiment needs and so my particular 'charge' time should be seen as relevant only to my low-voltage circuit - your optimal time may turn out to be very different due to either difference in inductance or difference in voltage levels

thanks for the heads-up on the confusion over my info - hope this makes it easier to see what i was trying to say  :)

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Thank you once again Sandy for taking the time to make every detail so very clear.

Cheers

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 26, 2008, 02:22:32 AM
Hi Luc,

I agree.......if we go "C'est La Vie" and move on, nothing will happen.

A while ago I proposed using 4 spark plugs per cylinder ( only for experimental purposes at this stage ) to see if an increased delivery of energy might be enough to kick of a sustained detonation that would produce enough energy to move a piston.

While sitting here musing on this, I wondered about the step wave form that Meyer had, and I wonder if we could replicate that using 4 plugs firing one after enough in sequence ( i.e. each plug fires as if it were a "step" ), if that might be enough to smash the bonds betweenm the water molecules. Its a bit brute force, but worth looking at.

I was going to replace the old cylinder head of my old mower with 1/2 inch plate steel plate and drill and tap 4 holes for 4 spark plugs and fire them altogether and then work ont he stepping circuit which would just be 4 copies of the same circuit or maybe 4 caps all connected via timing circuitry.

I think firing all 4 plugs at the same time first is worth looking at.

Luc I also like the idea of the GEET/water hybrid. I think the GEET step is really the "softening up" process to hopefully lower the energy threshold to get the water to burn.





Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 26, 2008, 01:04:29 PM
Setup:
Similar to Aaron / P. Linderman.
Supply 130V from variac.
Primary Cap 80uf 330V
Enhanced Caps 100uf 400V x 4
Ignition Frequency 1Hz.

1.Results using Nebulizer:

Very small reaction, compared with "sprayed" water. Luckily, I had a nebulizer lying around. I even tried it with electrolyte. Same result.

2. Results from sprayed electrolyte.

Increased explosive force compared to tap water. Heat, (pressure tests later today I hope) but huge problems with arcing within the tube, due to increased conductivity on surface between electrodes. 

3. Results from connecting spark anode and cathode to 2 x 3''x3'' electrolysis plates submerged in electrolyte.

Considerable HHO production. I will try to feed HHO with sprayed water into the pressure tester and measure pressure change.

Xbox, if you are reading this, can you confirm your supply power voltage, cap values and approx. volume of your cannon,  when you did similar tests?

@ everyone. Pressure differential is the be all and end all. No pressure differential, no ICE.

Thanks
D.


 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on August 26, 2008, 03:37:27 PM
Hi Groundloop,
I tried your circuit but got no spark. I used a good telephone transformer from Tamura (P/N: T1104) and SCR p/n: BT151. I hook input trigger coil of the transformer to pin RC0 of a PIC and wrote a small program like this
void main() {
    PORTC = 0;
    TRISC = 0;

    delay_ms(50); // Charge capacitor for 50ms
    while(1) {
        PORTC.F0=1; // Discharge capacitor for 1ms
        delay_ms(1);
        PORTC.F0=0; // Charge capacitor for 50ms again
        delay_ms(50);
    }
}
I measured output pulse at secondary coil and adjusted pot to got 0.9V between G and K pin of SCR. Then I supplied 110 VAC to the circuit. Nothing happened. I slowly adjusted pot back and forward but nothing happened too.
All components that I used are working with mechanical relay circuit of Luc.
Hope to get your solution. Can we use an optocoupler instead of transformer because the transformer makes trigger pulses distortedly?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 26, 2008, 04:36:58 PM
@Dread:
I use 300VDC. My latest jig is a 3/4" PVC TEE, so what ever the volume of that is... My old jig was a 3/4" PVC tube about 5" long...so what ever the volume of that was...LOL

My setup is 110VAC mains going into a voltage doubler = just over 300VDC...that then goes into a 270uF 400V cap
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 26, 2008, 07:41:26 PM
Thanks X-box

The pressure test results:

I have a problem with the relay not being able to cope with much more that 100V with any consistency but I managed.

OK. Volume of combustion chamber 100ML (+/- 4 OZ)
Single shot @ 35PSI and 125V from the variac,  Adjusting anode and cathode screw heads for bigger and smaller gap, Using tap water.
The best pressure change was +1 PSI.


The results are disappointing. However, I now have a baseline. I know I need a more robust relay and much more voltage.
I will repeat test with electrolyte once I have replaced the components.   

Rgds
D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 26, 2008, 07:51:25 PM
@ Foxwhisper

Have you tried heavier gauge wires? I found my 600V spec wires if used on both electrodes make a measurable improvement.

Hope this helps
D.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 26, 2008, 08:51:02 PM
bxngoc,

It did not work because you did not build the circuit as shown in my drawing.
Look at the data sheet for the TIC106D and then look at the data sheet for the BT151.

The BT151 needs 2 mA to 15 mA (max) at 0,6 volt to 1,5 volt (max) to trigger the gate.
The TIC106D needs 60 uA to 200 uA (max) at 0,4 volt to 1 volt (max) to trigger the gate.

You MUST use the TIC106D or a 100% simmilar LOW gate current trigged SCR.

EDIT: Another issue. You do need to time discharge timing in your PIC program. You only need a
pulse (trigger pulse to the transformer) that is long enough to trigger the SCR. The discharge time
will be controlled by the size (value in uF) of the capacitor used. When a SCR triggers, the current
through the SCR will go on until there is no more current possible from the capacitor. The SCR will then
close. It is not like a MOSFET where you can switch off the device by will. Set the discharge time in
your program a little bit higher than the SCR will stay open. The PIC program will then look like this:

1. Wait until capacitor is fully charged. This can be done by actually measuring the voltage over the capacitor
    with a oscope and find the time it takes to charge the capacitor.
2. Send ONE pulse that is long enough to trigger the SCR. Found by exprimenting.
3. Wait until capacitor is fully drained and the SCR has closed. Found by oscope measuring the capacitor.
4. goto 1.

EDIT2: Yes, it is possible to use a opto coupler. I'm currently working on a circuit that will take the power from
the 120 volt rail to power a pic and opto coupler. This circuit (posting very soon) will be able to use other SCR
like your BT151 because we can adjust the gate power needed by changing a resistor value. Stay tuned.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: professor on August 26, 2008, 10:08:08 PM
Hi
Maybe  we need a second opinion here.
The Way I see it,but maybe I am not looking at it correctly so I"ll  explain.  The NP Capacitor charges up first through the least resistance that of the coil and if the voltage becomes greater than .75 volt  the diode parallel to the primary conducts to ground as it is forward biased now the Capacitor is fully charged negative on the primary side. If the scr is triggered then the voltage stored in the capacitor discharges through the scr to ground and the field in the transformer would collapse providing we had no diode here at all. If you were to protect the scr you would have to parallel the scr with your diode in opposite polarity as shown in your diagram in other words have the cathode facing opposite to that of the scr thus would protect the scr  from any spikes .
This is my point of view .I apologize if I am wrong. I inclosed a diagram not my own but if you look on the Net under strobe Light Circuits you will find this to be standard procedure.Maybe we both are right?
Professor
professor,

No, the BY255 is correct in the circuit drawing. The BY255 is used as a "free wheeling" diode to
protect the TIC106D from back emf voltage spike. Look at the circuit drawing again. The capacitor
will be charged with plus voltage facing the TIC106D. When the SCR fires the plus voltage will
go to the coil into the bottom. At this time the BY255 is closed. When the pulse fire is done the
coil will flip polarity (back emf voltage) and the BY255 will then open and take care of that.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 26, 2008, 10:44:51 PM
professor,

Not the same circuit. My circuit has the SCR wired a different way than in your circuit.
My circuit works correct and has been built, tested and used on a motor as a CDI system.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 26, 2008, 11:57:00 PM
bxngoc,

As promised. Here is the opto coupled version for interfacing to a PIC (or other micro controller).
This circuit power the micro controller from the 120 volt rail. Use only the components in the
drawing. No short cuts here! The SCR can be of any type as long as you change the value
of the two resistors around the SCR and opto (10K and 33K). The values in this drawing is for the TIC106D.

Please note that the ground line in this circuit is LIVE at 120 volt DC and the circuit must be built into
a plastic box to protect the operator. The circuit must be built onto a proper PCB. There must be just
one ground line going from the "live" circuit part to the digital part. Best point of ground connection is
at the Katode of the SCR.

The circuit has one external trigger input. This is for 5 volt TTL but if you change the 330 Ohm resistor then
any input pulsed voltage can be used. For 12 volt pulsed input the resistor value is approx. 1K.

If you have any questions then just ask.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 12:12:10 AM
bxngoc,

Attached is a circuit for those of you that use a micro controller (mcu) with a built in A/D converter.
This circuit measure the voltage over the capacitor. The 0 - 120 V will be 0 - 4 volt at the
input of the mcu. The 5,1 volt zener is there for protection.

We take the guess work out by using a voltage sence network. Now the code in the mcu can be
very simple. Just measure the voltage and wait until the capacitor is fully charged. One can also
trigger before the cap is fully charged. Now the operator has no need to know the capacitor charge time.
And if the capacitor is changed, same goes. One great PIC that fits this circuit is the PIC16F88.
If you need a circuit drawing and code for this PIC, just ask.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 01:17:38 AM
bxngoc,

Here is a circuit drawing with a PIC16F88 for the ignition circuit.
Now all you have to do is to write some firm ware to the PIC mcu.

1. Init
2. Measure if capacitor is charged up
3. No, goto 2
4. if input trigger then fire SCR
5. goto 2

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on August 27, 2008, 03:49:17 AM
Thank you Groundloop. You make my mind  full of interesting things. It was my fault on previous failed attempt I didn't use exact SCR on your circuit and I have not used SCR before. It is difficult to find good electronics component in my place.
For new circuits I suggest we will make a PWM output to a MOSTFET to drive a step up transformer to get high AC voltage (like people on energeticforum do with NE555). So we will get rid of AC wall plug. We only turn on charge pump when it is need so we will save battery energy.
In further improvment we can add two hall sensor inputs to PIC to determine TDC and BDC of pistol to start ignition.
I know you have planned all improvements already but I can't restrain to say it out
I appreciate if you can send me PIC CDI source code and schematic for reference.
@all
Sorry for my bad English but I know you can understand my writing well.
Cheers
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on August 27, 2008, 04:45:28 AM
@ Luc....
 .... and here's your circuit producing some mechanical energy...
it WILL work.... patience and perseverance everyone!!!
this is from retrod
and here's his comments from the cap70 thread:
Quote
Here is a video I did of a marble in a close fitting plastic tube with plasma arc and water. For an ignition system (high voltage) I am using a 1980 vintage GM HEI ignition coil powered by a strobe light discharge. The low voltage side is a 120 volt mains voltage doubler circuit. As you will see the energy to drive the marble out of the cylinder is not very predictable.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=WzpsOdllv2w
cheers!  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 07:44:08 AM
bxngoc,

When running a CDI circuit on a engine, all you need is the motor ignition reference output.
This will give you a fixed reference point for the piston. (Usually TDC or close to TDC.) Then all
you do is delay the firing in software (in the PIC) for other ignition points. The PIC software
tracks the time between the ignition pulses and can then compute the correct timing.
One or two Hall sensors on the motor flywheel will also work fine. (Less software.)

I see no problem in designing a PIC controlled power supply for this circuit. Give me some
time and I will see what I can come up with. The psu should be simple and powerful and the
first thing that I think of is a toroid transformer controlled by a couple of mosfets with a IR2106
driver IC controlled directly from the PIC.

I'm sorry to say that I can not share the full engine CDI circuit and software with you. This, because
I have developed the circuit together with a friend. My friend gave me a permission to put parts of
the circuit (modified) out on the web.  That said, we can construct our beefed up ignition circuit
around the already posted circuit drawings and write a new software for the PIC16F88 mcu. I see that
a bit longer down the road I should construct a professional circuit board for this project. But first I need
a replicator to build and test so that we do not waste time and money on expensive circuit boards.

BTW, you English is OK. :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on August 27, 2008, 10:03:26 AM
@Groundloop
It is no problem that you can't share full source code. I respect intellectual property. I've found http://www.semifluid.com/?p=34  (http://www.semifluid.com/?p=34) that generate plasma from a PIC output.
We're playing a jigsaw puzzle now. We're finding pieces of information and assemble into a big picture of a car that will run by water.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 11:52:43 AM
bxngoc,

I fully agree with you, the ultimate goal is to run an engine on water.

I have constructed a 12VDC to 230VAC (or 110VAC) converter that can be switched
on and off from a pic TTL control signal. But, I did not like the circuit. I think it is too
complicated. I also think it will be much cheaper to buy a 300 Watt inverter that
convert 12VDC to 230VAC (or 110VAC). I have attached the circuit for the thinkers
out there. Maybe someone can modify the circuit to be more simple? The link you
posted was a very nice circuit but I think it need some back emf protection of some sort.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 01:27:16 PM
bxngoc,

I was inspired by your post and made a new much simpler circuit.
It can't be much more simple than this, I think.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on August 27, 2008, 02:51:52 PM
Could we use crystal oscillator 500Hz instead of PIC ? That would be much cheaper.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 03:30:28 PM
forest,

Yes you could. But the idea was that the PIC will shut off the power hungry inverter
when not needed. This to save energy. You must see all my circuit drawings as a
whole. One PIC mcu will control all the circuits.

Finding a crystal that oscillate at 500Hz will be difficult, I think.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on August 27, 2008, 03:59:55 PM
Sorry,I'm just searching for simple 12VDC->230VDC inverter  to really fast charge capacitor, so I would be able to discharge it at the 10khz rate or maybe faster each time having plasma waterplug effect.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on August 27, 2008, 04:25:53 PM
For simple circuit just read this thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.msg122299.html#msg122299 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.msg122299.html#msg122299). Capacitor70 has done it already.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 27, 2008, 07:09:51 PM
@ X-Box,

Trying to order the components to build the 1/2 wave voltage doubler. Can you let me know what the Caps voltage or material spec is? ploughing through mouser is giving me a headache.

Thanks
D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 27, 2008, 07:45:16 PM
@ X-Box,

Trying to order the components to build the 1/2 wave voltage doubler. Can you let me know what the Caps voltage or material spec is? ploughing through mouser is giving me a headache.

Thanks
D.

The caps i used are 33uf 250V...here is the schematic..
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 27, 2008, 09:35:44 PM
X-Box,

You just saved me $40.

Thanks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on August 27, 2008, 09:54:21 PM
X-Box,

You just saved me $40.

Thanks.
I accept paypal.... ;D ;D ::) ::) ;D ;D

JUST KIDDING!!!

@groundloop:

GREAT work with the PIC!!!! Any particular reason you use 16F88?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2008, 10:56:16 PM
xbox hacker,

The first micro controller I got was the PIC16F84A. I learned to program that mcu in assembler.
I switched to the F88 since the F84 now starts to get old and the code in the F88 is the same in
assembler. The F88 also has many built in features such a A/D converter, larger code space,
RS232 serial communication, more timers etc. It is a versatile mcu.

bxngoc,

Thanks for posting the link. I have made a cleaned up version of the same circuit.
The frequency can be altered by changing the 36K5 resistor. (Maybe a 22k trimmer in series with a 10K resistor here?)
I think that around 1KHz will be enough if we use a regular 12VAC-12VAC to 230VAC toroid transformer.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: foxwhisper on August 27, 2008, 11:44:33 PM
Hi all, re plasma spark & water explosion as a fuel, I'm of the opinion it is a futile exercise &  flogging a dead horse.After hands on expermenting, reading every post,viewing every video & studying volumes on the subject by academics & university studies,I have come to the same conclusion as most of those studies----  the 'explosion' is an implosion creating a shockwave, the noise becoming louder at the application of moisture,simply by  decreasing the resistance & increasing the plasma spark. It may be just possible for the displacement of air by a sound wave  within a tiny ICE, free from seals (resistance) & its piston positioned so that  with the help of gravity, it moves to the downstroke position. I do not believe that sophisticated electronics will increase the energy to run an ICE with next to no energy to start with. By replicating ideas that have no substance, other than a barely viewable U tube clip, some of which, that have been described by a few, who seem to need an ego boost for something they did'nt make happen. Some of these people disappear of the radar!--- I have serious doubts about s1r9a9m9 as I'm sure many others have. We all have the same goal, trying to find an alternative fuel system, & wasting time, effort & hard earned cash on fruitless exercises is not in my book &, it won't be people like me who will  hinder  the goal. To look outside the square is probably a good way to go, the more indivdual thinking can only help the cause, but improving  on proven  technology should not be neglected.  Finding a method of generating Aquafuel efficiently within the vehicle itself  is one such example of many & one which I intend to persue. The new thread on emulsifying Browns Gas is great lateral thinking. Let there be more! That's my two cents worth & my opinion for what it's worth.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 28, 2008, 03:31:54 AM
Hi all, re plasma spark & water explosion as a fuel, I'm of the opinion it is a futile exercise &  flogging a dead horse.After hands on expermenting, reading every post,viewing every video & studying volumes on the subject by academics & university studies,I have come to the same conclusion as most of those studies----  the 'explosion' is an implosion creating a shockwave, the noise becoming louder at the application of moisture,simply by  decreasing the resistance & increasing the plasma spark. It may be just possible for the displacement of air by a sound wave  within a tiny ICE, free from seals (resistance) & its piston positioned so that  with the help of gravity, it moves to the downstroke position. I do not believe that sophisticated electronics will increase the energy to run an ICE with next to no energy to start with. By replicating ideas that have no substance, other than a barely viewable U tube clip, some of which, that have been described by a few, who seem to need an ego boost for something they did'nt make happen. Some of these people disappear of the radar!--- I have serious doubts about s1r9a9m9 as I'm sure many others have. We all have the same goal, trying to find an alternative fuel system, & wasting time, effort & hard earned cash on fruitless exercises is not in my book &, it won't be people like me who will  hinder  the goal. To look outside the square is probably a good way to go, the more indivdual thinking can only help the cause, but improving  on proven  technology should not be neglected.  Finding a method of generating Aquafuel efficiently within the vehicle itself  is one such example of many & one which I intend to persue. The new thread on emulsifying Browns Gas is great lateral thinking. Let there be more! That's my two cents worth & my opinion for what it's worth.


Thank you foxwhisper, for your very honest and direct opinion. I do agree with much of what you are saying. Three days ago I wrote this message to the group: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg123465.html#msg123465  but in a way they could come to some of the conclusions you are sharing. However it would be better if they do this on their own!... Saying it with a tone of certainty is not advisable, since we never should say never.

@everyone, I am very happy to have seen all your participation to date. For those of you that have replicated this simple circuit and have seen the effect know it is nothing close to watching a video replication of it. You have not wasted your money!... in the contrary you have gained an experience that money can't buy. My hat's off to all who did and those that will also chose to replicate.

As I have said, we don't know what to do with this water enhanced spark.  At this time! since it will not make a combustion engine work unless we put in more energy than we would get out of the engine. Like I said, the combustion engine is not a great design. Again, I could be wrong and someone will figure out how to harmonize the water in a Natural way that could create water expansion and make an engine work. But we don't have this knowledge yet.

So with this said, I would suggest you connect with Nature (Universe) and observe or ask how It would use this effect to return energy!... then share your thoughts, meditation and dreams or submit your proposal.

My plasma engine proposal is now mostly built!... It is a GEET bubbler (only) which attempts to use the exhaust energy (heat and air pressure) to prepare the water and fuel mix by emulsifying the mixture with the vigorous bubbling action, heat and shock waves of the exhaust (like this example video): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8902559328011576310 but I will also add at the top of the jar some Stainless pot scrubbers to which when the bubbles hit they will burst and create a large surface area (surface tension) which in turn will create water gas vapor which our plasma spark will be able to combust @100% with minimal power input. Today I have finished building the complete bubbler asembly and the next step will be the timing system and the circuit to remove the waste spark. Please also note that I am making a closed loop with the exhaust and intake as I am quite sure it is possible as Frederic Gauthier (a French Canadian like me who lives a few hours from me) demonstrates in his French (sorry) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uboKv7lbAbY  I did contact Frederic last year after seeing his video and he has confirmed that he did close the intake and exhaust to create a loop and the engine worked just as well. This is what he is doing with the cloth to show no output or intake. I hope to have a demo some time next week.

Please do keep up the great work, as you never know!... you maybe the one to find the answers we are all looking for.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on August 28, 2008, 05:54:33 AM
Hi everyone

Im fairly convinced that exploding water alone is never gonna be enough to power an engine. I think the small explosion which some have reported to move a piston is possibly caused by some small amount of fuel/oil got mixed with the water.

I see groundloop comes up with some really nice circuit, excellent stuff but I think it is too advance for what we need at the moment. This is why I didnt wanna spend too much time building anything more than the basic circuit as posted by gotoluc.

To move forward, I have decided to buy a hedge trimmer, here is the victim, a 26cc 1HP 2 stroke motor. Im gonna be using it for HHO or water/fuel mixture.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on August 28, 2008, 06:33:03 AM
My proposal is now built!... It is a GEET bubbler (only) which is an attempt to use the exhaust energy (heat and air pressure) to prepare the water and fuel mix by emulsifying the mixture with the bubbling and heat of the exhaust (like this example video): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8902559328011576310  the bubbles brake over a large surface area (pot scrubbers) to which will create a vapor state of the gases which our plasma spark will be able to combust @100% with minimal power input. Today I have finished building the complete bubbler system and next step will be the mechanical waste spark and timing system. I hope to have a demo some time next week.

I agree, I think we need to mix water with some fuel at least, then on top of that use plasma spark to explode the mix.

I have just done a quick water/veg oil mixing using a fog machine. The results look encouraging, I get pop and flames  ;D

Here is the link

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5450.0.html

Cant wait to see your demo luc :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 28, 2008, 07:51:17 AM
hi all

since there is supposedly a longitudinal force in the direction of high-current flow, has anyone with a 'nail-type' spark gap seen any evidence of the gap electrodes being forced apart?

thanks
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Hi Sandy,

I was going though the posts and looking for something an read your post and it rang a bell ::) ... a user named Gibs of the Energetic Forum (where they also have a topic going on about the circuit) was doing tests with a spark plug electrodes under water and reported this.

"I observed significant opening of the gap after a couple of dozens of under water explosions.
It started at .015" and it went to approximately .100", the ground electrode literally bent out!!!"

Link: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug-22.html#post26878

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 28, 2008, 08:02:10 AM
I agree, I think we need to mix water with some fuel at least, then on top of that use plasma spark to explode the mix.

I have just done a quick water/veg oil mixing using a fog machine. The results look encouraging, I get pop and flames  ;D

Here is the link

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5450.0.html

Cant wait to see your demo luc :o

Good direction on your part there Chris31. I saw your post and pictures at goldenequity's Emulsifying Brown's Gas Topic and I think you're doing great work.

So are you thinking the veggie oil will also keep the engine oiled up as it's going through the crankcase? 

Keep up the good work ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on August 28, 2008, 08:20:33 AM
Good direction on your part there Chris31.

So are you thinking the veggie oil will also keep the engine oiled up as it's going through the crankcase? 

Keep up the good work ;)

Luc

Yes Im hoping the veg is gonna work as lubricant while the engine is running, I know they are thicker but atleast its gonna lub the engine. I think Ill run the engine on fuel/oil mix just to flush out the veg oil and water residue each time Im done with the experiment. Its a small engine so it should be easy to flush the junk out. If it come to the worst Ill strip the engine and clean it up.

At the moment, I need to build the electronics and get the engine running on plasma spark with normal fuel/oil and play around with the timming abit. Once that done, what I would like to do next is brute force, mix veg oil (or diesel/petrol) with water, heat it up to maybe 70 deg before feeding it to the carb, then use plasma to explode the mix.

I hope it work  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 29, 2008, 01:01:54 AM
Quote
since there is supposedly a longitudinal force in the direction of high-current flow, has anyone with a 'nail-type' spark gap seen any evidence of the gap electrodes being forced apart?

thanks
sandy

Hi Sandy,

I was going though the posts and looking for something an read your post and it rang a bell ::) ... a user named Gibs of the Energetic Forum (where they also have a topic going on about the circuit) was doing tests with a spark plug electrodes under water and reported this.

"I observed significant opening of the gap after a couple of dozens of under water explosions.
It started at .015" and it went to approximately .100", the ground electrode literally bent out!!!"

Link: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug-22.html#post26878


hi Luc

thanks for the follow-up - interesting info!

you see, what i'm thinking is: if the force is across the spark/plasma - not around it - then maybe we should be striking the spark/plasma between one electrode and the piston at (just past?) TDC- not just across the spark plug?

what do you think?

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on August 29, 2008, 01:46:03 AM
My 2 cents.......I'm trying to find an old 2 stroke mower engine to try putting 4 spark plugs into a do it yourself 1/2 inch plate steel cylinder head, so I can deliver a lot more energy to the fuel.

I might even try a water/gas mix of 50/50 to see how things go. My thoughts are that more energy delivered to the water or water/gas mix might be enough to get it to fire. Worth a try. I keep coming back tot he Papp engine ( I know its a separate topic ) but they have BIG electrodes that protrude into the cylinder fromt he head to maximise contact with the fuel - my thinking is that it may require this level of redesign to deliver the required big boot up the ass to the fuel, to get it to ignite.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 29, 2008, 03:09:02 AM
hi Luc

thanks for the follow-up - interesting info!

you see, what i'm thinking is: if the force is across the spark/plasma - not around it - then maybe we should be striking the spark/plasma between one electrode and the piston at (just past?) TDC- not just across the spark plug?

what do you think?

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Hi Sandy, are you saying we use the top of the piston as our ground Electrode? 

Even if that was not what you meant I'm going to test it and see what happens.

Let me know as well.

Thanks

Luc



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 29, 2008, 03:14:28 AM
My 2 cents.......I'm trying to find an old 2 stroke mower engine to try putting 4 spark plugs into a do it yourself 1/2 inch plate steel cylinder head, so I can deliver a lot more energy to the fuel.

I might even try a water/gas mix of 50/50 to see how things go. My thoughts are that more energy delivered to the water or water/gas mix might be enough to get it to fire. Worth a try. I keep coming back tot he Papp engine ( I know its a separate topic ) but they have BIG electrodes that protrude into the cylinder fromt he head to maximise contact with the fuel - my thinking is that it may require this level of redesign to deliver the required big boot up the ass to the fuel, to get it to ignite.

Hi plasmastudent77, good idea! you never know until you test. The Papp engine is not so separate from this topic as this one was started to parallel this topic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5154.new

Keep up the good work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 29, 2008, 04:31:17 AM
Hi Sandy, are you saying we use the top of the piston as our ground Electrode? 

Even if that was not what you meant I'm going to test it and see what happens.

Let me know as well.

Thanks

Luc


Luc

Using   the piston  as   a cathode  was something I  thought about   when I first started   thinking about  how to  make a water car more practical

I  think that  using  the piston  as  cathode  has some serious  problems.
At first  glance it  looks  great ......... but as I see it  the problem is  oil.

Although   the  film  is   thin there is an oil  film  on the  rings and  sides of the  piston.
This  oil  will make the  piston    function  kind of like a capacitor .
The  voltage on the piston  will rise enough to arc through the oil .....then as it  discharges  it  will  leave  burnt oil  at the  discharge site
The  electrical  discharge  will probably  quickly  pit   the  cylinder  walls.

The   arcing  through  the oil could be  eliminated by  a   flexable  ground    line  like   a  spring  of some kind.      As I see  it the  piston  travel  is to far  for a spring to be practical .   Also   to carry  the  current the spring would  have to be  fairly  heavy

A flexible  ground  strap  like on  engine  blocks  would  flop  around  and  quickly  fall  apart leaving   lots of  copper  strands in the oil .


My  solution   is to  use  heavy copper  wires    formed into a grid   just  above TDC  so the arc  goes  through as much    of the  air compressed into the  cylinder as possible .     The  grid   would be  attached to  the  top  of the  cylinder      but  would   almost touch  the piston    at TDC       The  effect  would   be very  similar to   a giant  firestorm plug


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 29, 2008, 05:12:07 AM
Luc

Using   the piston  as   a cathode  was something I  thought about   when I first started   thinking about  how to  make a water car more practical

I  think that  using  the piston  as  cathode  has some serious  problems.
At first  glance it  looks  great ......... but as I see it  the problem is  oil.

Although   the  film  is   thin there is an oil  film  on the  rings and  sides of the  piston.
This  oil  will make the  piston    function  kind of like a capacitor .
The  voltage on the piston  will rise enough to arc through the oil .....then as it  discharges  it  will  leave  burnt oil  at the  discharge site
The  electrical  discharge  will probably  quickly  pit   the  cylinder  walls.

The   arcing  through  the oil could be  eliminated by  a   flexable  ground    line  like   a  spring  of some kind.      As I see  it the  piston  travel  is to far  for a spring to be practical .   Also   to carry  the  current the spring would  have to be  fairly  heavy

A flexible  ground  strap  like on  engine  blocks  would  flop  around  and  quickly  fall  apart leaving   lots of  copper  strands in the oil .


My  solution   is to  use  heavy copper  wires    formed into a grid   just  above TDC  so the arc  goes  through as much    of the  air compressed into the  cylinder as possible .     The  grid   would be  attached to  the  top  of the  cylinder      but  would   almost touch  the piston    at TDC       The  effect  would   be very  similar to   a giant  firestorm plug


gary

Hi Gary, excellent information on the possible cylinder walls problem.

I think we need a new engine design for this idea. And if it runs mostly cold we could do many things that can't be done in a ICE.

Keep up the thoughts and thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on August 29, 2008, 01:48:13 PM
I sent this Q to Aaron but he might be busy.

@ everyone.

Would this modification to the Aaron circuit, with X-box's 1/2 wave voltage doubler work?
I don't think I can send the increased voltage through the relay without problems but I can still get it to where it counts most.

Thanks
D.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on August 29, 2008, 02:17:50 PM
hi Luc

thanks for the follow-up - interesting info!

you see, what i'm thinking is: if the force is across the spark/plasma - not around it - then maybe we should be striking the spark/plasma between one electrode and the piston at (just past?) TDC- not just across the spark plug?

what do you think?

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Great idea, maybe this should be tested in a car, without plasma.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on August 29, 2008, 04:53:08 PM

deleated   after  giving  it a little more thought
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 30, 2008, 11:21:20 AM
@all,

Some pics.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on August 30, 2008, 11:26:02 AM
@All,

Has anyone seen this before, plasma flowing over or thru the wire ????

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on August 30, 2008, 11:38:08 AM
happyvalley808,

Yes. When the insulation break down voltage is less than the applied voltage then this will happen.

Group,

I have updated the small power inverter circuit to include a on off control. (PIC mcu control)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 30, 2008, 04:54:52 PM
@All,

Has anyone seen this before, plasma flowing over or thru the wire ????

HV

Hi HV,

if those pics are from a single frames of video it could also be an effect from the CCD camera's scan system. Notice how it lines up with your spark plug but just below it. I had the same thing and though it was some kind of anomaly and spent much time studying it just to find out it was the camera creating this.

Thanks for posting.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on August 30, 2008, 04:59:17 PM
Greetings all.........
take a look at this.... a plasma circuit (Tero design) running a 4 stroke motorcycle..

plasma demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5zh12n0lEg
engine running (smooth!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXFMIfcOo_I

no, not water.... gasoline on plasma
Congrats to revizal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nul-points on August 31, 2008, 10:42:07 PM
hi Luc

apologies for late reply, i've been away for a few days

> Hi Sandy, are you saying we use the top of the piston as our ground Electrode?

yes - i'm just wondering if this is why we're not seeing much evidence of an explosive force around the plasma on contact with the water: because the force is along the current - and usually the spark occurs between the two rigidly fixed electrodes of a commercial spark plug

i appreciate what Gary is saying about oil insulation and piston/cylinder pitting - i'm not suggesting that sparking to the piston is an acceptable end-solution - just that we try to fully understand what is really happening with this effect before dropping it because it seems like a dead-end

a new method of applying force may require a new method of capturing it (eg. direct drive onto 'flywheel' type crank from multiple discharges?)

ok, perhaps unsuitable for direct ICE application, but could we miss discovering a new drive technology as a result?

just a thought

all the best
sandy

<b>Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site:</b>  <b>http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc</b>
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on August 31, 2008, 10:47:16 PM
I sent this Q to Aaron but he might be busy.

@ everyone.

Would this modification to the Aaron circuit, with X-box's 1/2 wave voltage doubler work?
I don't think I can send the increased voltage through the relay without problems but I can still get it to where it counts most.

Thanks
D.


This 100 Ohm Resitors are to high !
Will burn !!
about 5 ohms is ok
PESE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: foxwhisper on September 01, 2008, 02:01:12 PM
Hi all,I was wondering if anyone has performed actual underwater "explosions" ( not mist or vapour ) with a high intensity arc? Any feedback re method & results would be much be appreciated. Perhaps an approach in this direction may be worth investigation in harnessing the shockwave energy in another way. FW 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: GrawpSVK on September 01, 2008, 08:14:47 PM
Hi all,I was wondering if anyone has performed actual underwater "explosions" ( not mist or vapour ) with a high intensity arc? Any feedback re method & results would be much be appreciated. Perhaps an approach in this direction may be worth investigation in harnessing the shockwave energy in another way. FW 

Interesting. I have been thinking about the same.
Did you know that plasma arc in water can cause mechanic cavitation? I know that NASA was studying this during freefall (of airbus).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on September 01, 2008, 09:38:36 PM
I have been trying to think of some more designs for spark plugs that could be tested and while I was playing around with some HHO gen designs I realised that neutral plates are often used but for spark plugs we just spark over the one gap and thats it... I don't know if anyone has tried to use neutral plates with this circuit or what is expected to happen so I wanted to find out

now if we connected two spark plugs to the same circuit that would create a neutral path between them? and does it change anything voltage wise? or the effect?

when I did a simple test for a HHO setup I used two containers filled with salt water, one container had the + voltage (13V DC 6amp) and the other had the - and the only connection between the two containers was a stainless steel rod... the negative side went brown and the positive side was clear, I measured the voltage between the neutral rod and the connections and the negative side was higher voltage (I forget the voltage but it was something like 8v on the neg and 4 volts on the pos)

whatever this high voltage circut is doing to the water to produce the larger spark having two chambers may give different results like the HHO setup did? who knows?

anyway here are two designs for new plugs that would use this neutral plate setup (but a simple experiment could be done with 2 spark gaps, no need to actually make these, they are just showing the idea)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 02, 2008, 03:11:33 AM
@everyone,

the below in blue is a post by User: smw1998a of the Energetic Forum. He just posted this report after building and studying the effect of the circuit for the past month. His work is impeccable and deserves all our applause and praises.

Here are also all his 4 videos demonstrate the effect with some that have excellent scope shots.

No. 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEfQUZJyrok

No. 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdxBbb-tR3s

No. 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-YtAX6j_hg

No. 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QmzePtUeU


Hello All,

I have been thinking hard on this one Further study of scope traces have provided me with a better insight into what the effect actually is. I was wrong about the reduced resistance, it?s actually far more simple than that.

My scope shows that my secondary coil rises to spark 20uS after the SCR conducts. During this time my capacitor drops from 200v to 180v. Before the voltage on the secondary winding gets high enough to arc across the gap there is only one path for the energy stored on the capacitor to get to ground, through the primary winding.

The addition of the diode in the circuit does a very simple thing. Once the arc has formed, the energy stored in the capacitor has a new path to ground via the HV diode and the arc. There is so little resistance in this new circuit path that it is as good as a dead short across the capacitor terminals. CRACK A disruptive capacitor discharge straight to ground.

The poor ignition coil has had 20v (200v to 180v) dropped across the primary winding in barely 20uS. There is just enough voltage on the secondary to arc across the gap and CRACK? No more energy in the capacitor to deliver to the primary winding and drive the voltage up in the secondary to maintain the arc. The ignition coil has had the rug well and truly pulled from under its feet. Being a coil with a sudden loss of current, the magnetic field collapses. There was so little energy stored in the magnetic field of the coil at the time the capacitor shorted its energy across the gap that the BEMF is insignificant.

There are a few significant points here. The diode/s are important because they have to hold back a reverse voltage as the secondary rises into the KV range before there is enough voltage to create the arc. Once the arc appears it is like shorting a 200v capacitor out with a diode, anode to positive cathode the negative. Increasing the voltage on the capacitor to over 300volts, assuming the cap can handle it, will not stress the ignition coil with the HV diodes in place. It may, however, increase plug ware no end.

With increased voltage on the capacitor you will have a very violent discharge across the arc. Due to the fact that the capacitor shorts across the arc as soon as it is formed the duration of the spark event is very short, much shorter than a standard HT spark.

I have wondered where all the apparent energy came from. When I drove the ignition coil inductively via a 555 timer and transistors, that circuit used almost 4 Amps and everything got hot. My batteries got battered by that circuit and I was plagued with transistor failures.

My current circuit does what it does on 1 amp@ 12v. I have managed to squeeze a frequency of 48Hz out of my charge pump, charging the cap to 200v. Although the charge pump transistor does get warm, nothing else does and other than initial 7555 failures, I have not lost a component on this circuit after many hours of testing.

All The best Lee?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 02, 2008, 03:26:29 AM
hi Luc

apologies for late reply, i've been away for a few days

> Hi Sandy, are you saying we use the top of the piston as our ground Electrode?

yes - i'm just wondering if this is why we're not seeing much evidence of an explosive force around the plasma on contact with the water: because the force is along the current - and usually the spark occurs between the two rigidly fixed electrodes of a commercial spark plug

i appreciate what Gary is saying about oil insulation and piston/cylinder pitting - i'm not suggesting that sparking to the piston is an acceptable end-solution - just that we try to fully understand what is really happening with this effect before dropping it because it seems like a dead-end

a new method of applying force may require a new method of capturing it (eg. direct drive onto 'flywheel' type crank from multiple discharges?)

ok, perhaps unsuitable for direct ICE application, but could we miss discovering a new drive technology as a result?

just a thought

all the best
sandy

<b>Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site:</b>  <b>http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc</b>

Hi Sandy,

thanks for all the good points ;)  As you see we still have tests to do even if it fails to use this with an ICE. At this time I'm busy with the tuning and testing of the circuit on my half GEET plasma engine. So if anyone want to test Sandy's suggestion please let us know and do report your finding! good or bad as we need to find what to do with this effect.

If no one replies then I will out it on my things to test list that I will address if all fails with my present engine.

Thanks Sandy for your most excellent sharing and ideas ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 02, 2008, 03:28:23 AM
This 100 Ohm Resitors are to high !
Will burn !!
about 5 ohms is ok
PESE


Hi Pese,

thanks for keeping an eye and helping with the topic ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dave45 on September 02, 2008, 03:40:17 AM
just thinking lightening doesn't explode water it implodes I would think otherwise the clouds would explode
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: destino1320 on September 02, 2008, 08:33:26 AM
Greetings all
This is my first post here, and a have a few questions.

Here is a video of my set up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqSq3jVlMHA

so far we have built a pair of firestorm spark plugs and we have put together a combination of the Tero water explosion circuit and the JCBX circuit.
We cant get the engine to run however, so i am curious about a few things, especially from capacitor70 or s1r9a9m9
- what is the best air to water mixture
-what is the optimal way to bring the water into the engine
-what is the optimal timing of the engine
-what is the optimal voltage coming from the inverter, and end result through the diodes ( as diodes to consume some voltage, there is a voltage drop when using certain diodes)
- is there a good way to charge the water before bringing it in to the motor, with magnets, or ionization or joe cell etc

any more help or comments would be great

thanks for all the good work everyone!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on September 02, 2008, 10:56:33 AM
I must ask if anyone here is aquainted with an ERG. The description wiki gives states that is equal to less than 1 joule but has so many more eV .....    does anyone know if wiki has made a mistake in the description of an ERG?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erg

ooops  sorry bout that .... i see now the diffrence of 7 magnitudes     ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 03, 2008, 05:48:44 AM
Greetings all
This is my first post here, and a have a few questions.

Here is a video of my set up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqSq3jVlMHA

so far we have built a pair of firestorm spark plugs and we have put together a combination of the Tero water explosion circuit and the JCBX circuit.
We cant get the engine to run however, so i am curious about a few things, especially from capacitor70 or s1r9a9m9
- what is the best air to water mixture
-what is the optimal way to bring the water into the engine
-what is the optimal timing of the engine
-what is the optimal voltage coming from the inverter, and end result through the diodes ( as diodes to consume some voltage, there is a voltage drop when using certain diodes)
- is there a good way to charge the water before bringing it in to the motor, with magnets, or ionization or joe cell etc

any more help or comments would be great

thanks for all the good work everyone!

Wow destino, you guys are serious!!!... no one here that I know of have been able to make an engine work on water alone. So for myself there is nothing I can tell you do this and it will work.

However... I see you made some Krupa style plugs. From my simple experiments with the design I have found you need a high performance coil and mostly a custom made coil driver circuit to get the plugs to spread  the plasma over the larger surface of the plugs ball. I think that is the idea behind the Krupa plug design over a standard design. I think when we can get the plasma to cover all the surface area of the ball at ignition would possibly be one of the winning combination. I'm no expert but that is what I think and understand at this time. Have a look at a test video I did. Please keep in mind I am doing this with a standard coil alone, so no capacitor discharge and diodes used. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPu7AI50w

User name: UncleFester is more of an expert than me since he claims to be working at R&D for Mr. Krupa. So you can post here if you wish and ask him. However, keep in mind they have investors and maybe cannot share all the information. Which brings us back to why we are doing this!... right!!!

I also can offer you what I am working on at this time. I think our plasma spark will work well in a combustion engine if we combine some fuel with the water since a combustion engine works with an expansion event and what we have found is our spark and water event stays cold, so how could we expect the water to expand if it stays cold!... right!!!  So I proposed a GEET plasma engine combination to which is now built!... It uses the GEET bubbler concept only so no reactor chamber. The idea is to use the exhaust energy (heat and air pressure) to prepare the water and fuel mix by emulsifying the two in a vigorous mixture by the bubbling action, heat and shock waves of the exhaust (something like this example video): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8902559328011576310  but I have some Stainless pot scrubbers at the top of the jar to which when the bubbles hit they will burst and create a large surface area (surface tension) to help create a water gas vapor to which our plasma spark will be able to combust the fuel to which will flash the water vapor to steam to which will give great pressure to make a combustion engine work. All this with minimal power (fuel) input. My hopes also are that the plasma spark will create the effect that the GEET reactor does but all in the combustion chamber. Also note that my system is a closed loop between the exhaust and intake as I am quite sure this is also possible as Frederic Gauthier demonstrates (in French sorry) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uboKv7lbAbY  I did contact Frederic last year after seeing his video and he has confirmed that he did close the intake and exhaust to create a loop and the engine worked just as well. This is what he is doing with the cloth to show no output or intake. I hope to have a demo some time this week.  Here is a video of the proposal I did over a week ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAyW21_L0is  At this time the bubbler assembly is completed, so now I'm working on the timing system and  the waste spark removal circuit.

You may also want to look at this topic as it relates to what I am doing above: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5450.msg123278.html

I hope this can help you or anyone else reading this.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on September 03, 2008, 04:06:30 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Alltho the GEET system is an alltogether diffrent system,its neat that you are apply'n it to your research and I wuld like to offer some suggestions for your future research around the whole reality of the system if you dont mind...   just some thoughts and perspectives for your pleasure.
The glass jar wuld be inside a metal container with an 1/8" gap between them,sealed at top and bottom.The metal container wuld have fittings from the glass sealed jar as you have assymbled thru the top of it and seald as well with an additional fitting at top to push the heated exhaust into and around the outside of the glass jar and also a fitting on the side near the bottom to exit and exhaust the combustion gasses into as standard small engine muffler.
The copper piping you have assymbled for exhaust inlet I think wuld be a neat way to pull some extra nitrogen into the system from the air ... it wuld be assymbled as you have only where the exhaust is added atop of the lid into the copper piping an air filter/ionizer and an adjustable ball valve wuld be in place and the exhaust  wuld be routed into the extra fitting atop of the metal container to flow around the outside of the glass jar and exit out of the metal container with a provided fitting near the bottom side of the metal container.... hmm well those were some thoughts about the system and you may like to try it that way or not but I do appreciate the work you are doing and most sencerily Thank You for sharing.
Im currious to research subjecting all of the exhausted combustion byproducts further to combustion temperatures and the changes that those gasses may encounter....  may be good or bad....  interesting I havent seen any documentation on subjecting exhaust gasses to combustion chamber temperatures yet  :-\

                                                                                                                                             
Im looking very forward to attempting a replication of the work you have shared.
All this is great stuff and Im glad everyone is still plug'n away and havent given up....  just wanted to say Thank You.

                                                                                                                                                                                     Thank You !
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 03, 2008, 11:14:09 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Alltho the GEET system is an alltogether diffrent system,its neat that you are apply'n it to your research and I wuld like to offer some suggestions for your future research around the whole reality of the system if you dont mind...   just some thoughts and perspectives for your pleasure.
The glass jar wuld be inside a metal container with an 1/8" gap between them,sealed at top and bottom.The metal container wuld have fittings from the glass sealed jar as you have assymbled thru the top of it and seald as well with an additional fitting at top to push the heated exhaust into and around the outside of the glass jar and also a fitting on the side near the bottom to exit and exhaust the combustion gasses into as standard small engine muffler.
The copper piping you have assymbled for exhaust inlet I think wuld be a neat way to pull some extra nitrogen into the system from the air ... it wuld be assymbled as you have only where the exhaust is added atop of the lid into the copper piping an air filter/ionizer and an adjustable ball valve wuld be in place and the exhaust  wuld be routed into the extra fitting atop of the metal container to flow around the outside of the glass jar and exit out of the metal container with a provided fitting near the bottom side of the metal container.... hmm well those were some thoughts about the system and you may like to try it that way or not but I do appreciate the work you are doing and most sencerily Thank You for sharing.
Im currious to research subjecting all of the exhausted combustion byproducts further to combustion temperatures and the changes that those gasses may encounter....  may be good or bad....  interesting I havent seen any documentation on subjecting exhaust gasses to combustion chamber temperatures yet  :-\

                                                                                                                                             
Im looking very forward to attempting a replication of the work you have shared.
All this is great stuff and Im glad everyone is still plug'n away and havent given up....  just wanted to say Thank You.

                                                                                                                                                                                     Thank You !

Hi kewlhead,

thank you for your suggestions and words of appreciation towards the work done.

I'm still working out things on the ignition system and hope to have a test as soon as it works. We will have to wait for the first test to be done before considering changes.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on September 04, 2008, 10:36:56 AM
Pese,

Yes, thanks for your council. My visits here are becoming more infrequent with development of the engine, test rig, circuit, and high voltage multi-tasking switch, (don't even ask) etc.
The circuit mod. with the V-doubler has increased explosive compression.  @ 30PSI to around 35PSI. I will try with less resistance on the booster side and SS electrodes.

Luc.

I managed to blow my booster diode chain (7 X 1N5408's)  ;D 270uf 400V + doubler was fine. I added 3 x 100uf 400V caps and they died. Using a 12 diode chain now, it's fine but no pressure tests yet.

X-box.

Any idea, why I can't reproduce your explosive compression? Trying to remove variables here. Are you using an automotive HT (high voltage) lead or is it a solid core? Is my 100 ohm resistor too much? Any ideas?   

Rgds.
D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on September 04, 2008, 12:57:22 PM
X-box.

Any idea, why I can't reproduce your explosive compression? Trying to remove variables here. Are you using an automotive HT (high voltage) lead or is it a solid core? Is my 100 ohm resistor too much? Any ideas?   

Rgds.
D.
Dont know for sure....i have 50kV wire for the HV, I have NO resistor....also i was using Cap70 Coil design....NO DIODES.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 04, 2008, 04:03:15 PM
Luc.

I managed to blow my booster diode chain (7 X 1N5408's)  ;D 270uf 400V + doubler was fine. I added 3 x 100uf 400V caps and they died. Using a 12 diode chain now, it's fine but no pressure tests yet.

X-box.

Any idea, why I can't reproduce your explosive compression? Trying to remove variables here. Are you using an automotive HT (high voltage) lead or is it a solid core? Is my 100 ohm resistor too much? Any ideas?   

Rgds.
D.

Hi Dread,

the 7 X 1N5408's diode chain I used in the video demo was in good balance with the capacitor I was using (6.8uf). So if you go with a higher capacitor uf value you will need to add more diodes.

Also for HV wire leads. You must use wire with no resistance!...I had collected some old CRT flybacks and cut off the red HV wire lead and used that everywhere the HV is present. The inside wire is solid and has no resistance. The shielding is also rated at 40,000 volts. It work great for me.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 04, 2008, 04:15:42 PM
Dont know for sure....i have 50kV wire for the HV, I have NO resistor....also i was using Cap70 Coil design....NO DIODES.

Hi xbox hacker,

I'm going to try capacitor70's design as soon as I get some free time. I would like to see if there is a measurable power efficiency difference.

I also just notice that capacitor70 has found some kind of self charging 4 battery circuit?... is this correct?... will he start a new topic for this?

Let us know as I'm sure many would like to participate in that.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on September 04, 2008, 11:39:42 PM
I replaced the 100 Ohm with a 50 Ohm and got more bang, then a 20 Ohm and 20 diode's. 1 huge bang then the diode's blew. I think I am totally over the diode thing now. They are fine for lower power but when experimenting with variables they are a pain. X-Box, I can feel your smirk.
It's time for the Cap 70 transformer coil. Where did you guy's get your ferrite core from and what size is it?

Thanks.

Dread.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on September 05, 2008, 01:16:50 AM
Scratch the info request. Going to copy X-box's design (for a change :-\)

Hey X-box, it looks like 3 layers (13, 1st layer, 12, 2nd layer, 13, 3rd layer) on your secondary, right?
What did you use as the core? looks like PVC. 

D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on September 05, 2008, 05:15:00 AM
Scratch the info request. Going to copy X-box's design (for a change :-\)

Hey X-box, it looks like 3 layers (13, 1st layer, 12, 2nd layer, 13, 3rd layer) on your secondary, right?
What did you use as the core? looks like PVC. 

D

The coil i use is from a arcade monitor....its for the Horizontal width adjustment. The plastic thing is threaded in the center and the ferrite is threaded too, that how you adjust it....by moving it up and down. My rod is 1" long by about 3/8" diameter. Their is only a primary and a secondary. In the image the secondary is on the bottom and the primary is wound over the secondary. The secondary is about 28-30 turns and the primary is about 12 turns...i say about because i have made MANY coils and they all worked just fine....not one number of turns was better then another. I have never gone over 30 on the secondary....lol

You can goto radioshack and buy a ferrite rod inductor, take off the windings that are on it, and you have a core to start with! The secondary needs to be coated wire.....NOT magnet wire. I bought some 1000V wire on ebay and i have not gotten around to testing it....but i hope to soon! The primary can be magnet wire. The best wire i have found to use...that was FREE....is the windings form a microwave transformer. Most of my coils were made of it.

The capacitor is the most important part!! I bought some 6kV 500pF caps on ebay, and they seem to work well.

Here is how to start:
-Connect your HV/primary side to the coil.
-Connect a spark plug to the secondary side of the coil...one leg goes to the body of the plug and the other leg goes to the top of the plug... DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DC VOLTAGE FOR NOW. We just want to see if we can get a spark on the secondary plug!!!! If you get a good spark...with no missing, then move on to adding the DC to the secondary.

REMEMBER...
(http://designstudioexpress.com/warning.gif)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 05, 2008, 06:26:41 AM
Scratch the info request. Going to copy X-box's design (for a change :-\)

Hey X-box, it looks like 3 layers (13, 1st layer, 12, 2nd layer, 13, 3rd layer) on your secondary, right?
What did you use as the core? looks like PVC. 

D
The coil i use is from a arcade monitor....its for the Horizontal width adjustment. The plastic thing is threaded in the center and the ferrite is threaded too, that how you adjust it....by moving it up and down. My rod is 1" long by about 3/8" diameter. Their is only a primary and a secondary. In the image the secondary is on the bottom and the primary is wound over the secondary. The secondary is about 28-30 turns and the primary is about 12 turns...i say about because i have made MANY coils and they all worked just fine....not one number of turns was better then another. I have never gone over 30 on the secondary....lol

You can goto radioshack and buy a ferrite rod inductor, take off the windings that are on it, and you have a core to start with! The secondary needs to be coated wire.....NOT magnet wire. I bought some 1000V wire on ebay and i have not gotten around to testing it....but i hope to soon! The primary can be magnet wire. The best wire i have found to use...that was FREE....is the windings form a microwave transformer. Most of my coils were made of it.

The capacitor is the most important part!! I bought some 6kV 500pF caps on ebay, and they seem to work well.

Here is how to start:
-Connect your HV/primary side to the coil.
-Connect a spark plug to the secondary side of the coil...one leg goes to the body of the plug and the other leg goes to the top of the plug... DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DC VOLTAGE FOR NOW. We just want to see if we can get a spark on the secondary plug!!!! If you get a good spark...with no missing, then move on to adding the DC to the secondary.

Hi Dread and xbox hacker,

please don't get me wrong guys but I think these questions and information should be kept in the same topic (were capacitor70 has posted his circuit) in order not to confuse those who are working on the circuit of this topic. Also, if these questions were in the topic that the information is in, it would help those who want to replicate capacitor70's circuit if they could read them there.

What do you think of this idea? can we agree to do this if more questions or information are needed?

Hey xbox hacker, you haven't answered my question above ::) watsup man!
Added: I think I see now what I missed, at the end capacitor70 said (no limit less power :()

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on September 05, 2008, 01:06:52 PM
What do you think of this idea? can we agree to do this if more questions or information are needed?
Great Idea!!


Hey xbox hacker, you haven't answered my question above Roll Eyes watsup man!

I am sorry....i did not see that one....  :-\
Soooo many forums...so little time....

He is working on a "Tesla Switch" like thing that will have the power to power the DC needed for the plasma spark.

No limitless power, yet  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 05, 2008, 01:58:47 PM
Group,

There was a current flowing through the high side of the ignition coil from the low voltage driver circuit through the diode chain.
(In my CDI circuits posted earlier in this thread.)

This current leakage was not wanted so I have designed a new circuit proposal that have no leakage at all.
The new circuit uses high voltage high current diodes to insulate the ignition coil high voltage.

I hope you will find this circuit useful.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on September 05, 2008, 02:34:56 PM
Luke,

Happy to oblige. Do you want results of the effect posted here or there?

X-Box,

Thanks man.

Rgds.
D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: GrawpSVK on September 05, 2008, 03:47:49 PM
Does somebody know this?
http://www.thejoecell.com :
Quote
How is it possible?

It is has been reported that when clean water is prepared properly in a joe cell, certain specific types
of bubble production result on the surface of the water. This in itself may give a valuable clue as to
the cause of the energy. When these bubbles are ignited, they often create an extremely violent
reaction with an associated sonic boom. It is highly likely that what is occurring here is related to a
principle known as Cavity Quantum Electrodynamics.
I've know about the joe cell technology for a four years now,.... never had time to built one, anyway I have had only a very very little of q. physics in school yet.

Read this http://www.thejoecell.com (http://www.thejoecell.com). Use google cache in case it doesn't work.

sorry for my english
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 05, 2008, 05:13:47 PM
Luke,

Happy to oblige. Do you want results of the effect posted here or there?

X-Box,

Thanks man.

Rgds.
D

Hi Dread,

what you can do since you are familiar with the circuit here is after some time when you get as familiar with capacitor70 circuit is share how much time it took you to get the circuit built and working (compared to this one), how low of uf cap value at xx volts can you use and still get the effect (compared to this one) which should give us an idea of efficiency and any advantages you may find (compared to this one).

That would be helpful

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: GrawpSVK on September 05, 2008, 06:59:03 PM
Another quote from www.thejoecell.com
Quote
then in 1969, interest in steam electricity
was renewed because of explosions caused by the ignition of vapors during the washing of oiler
tankers with steam jets. Steam electricity is supposedly explained by the bubbles nucleated in the
boiling of water droplets, behaving like resonant quantum electrodynamic (QED) cavities. During
bubble growth as the bubble cavity resonance coincides with vacuum ultraviolet frequencies, the
water molecules on the bubble walls dissociate by cavity QED into hydronium H3O+ and hydroxyl OH-
ions.
Doesn't it sound familiar?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on September 06, 2008, 11:03:44 AM
Hi Dread,

what you can do since you are familiar with the circuit here is after some time when you get as familiar with capacitor70 circuit is share how much time it took you to get the circuit built and working (compared to this one), how low of uf cap value at xx volts can you use and still get the effect (compared to this one) which should give us an idea of efficiency and any advantages you may find (compared to this one).

That would be helpful

Thanks

Luc
@luc:
Hi Luc,
Let me answer instead of Dread.
I went for Cap70 circuit because had to use over 65 diodes (every 1000v ) in order to prevent the HV spark going to the big capacitor. I this is thing that I found from from several days of tries/mistakes, it was really hard.
That's why tried the cap70 circuit and it started to work at once - so fast that I didn't believed it. Of course there is disadvantiges of the cap70 and it is important one. The traf used to get HV spark transformed to the first spark plug delivers very little of the HV spark because of the capacitors and transformers. That's you get something like 500pF energy @ 6000v which is enough for getting the effect same like with the diodes but not enough for getting effect in engine under compression (at TDS there is 8x pressure than at the room) and turbulention(from fuel/air incoming). However you can avoid also that by increasing the turns (& size) of the traf as also increasing the voltage of the capacitors.

@everyone:
Just wanted to share some thoughts which are objective and not influenced by overunity fanaticism.
I'd read several articles of Graneau (and son) works. These are the people that had studied the effect we trying to achieve here.
So the effect is real.
They believed that after effect the water molecules are splitted each other. The overunity energy came from the energy that is holding the H20 molecules together. And this from otherside is coming from the sun. However many people believed (even some of the people worked with P. Graneau) that his calculation about overunity of the effect are big mistake. But even if no mistake according to Graneau we getting overunity about 2 to input energy. Do you think that is enough for alternator to make energy so can feed the engine? I don't - that's why believe that s1r9a9m s work is lie (who knows?).
However there is something else, if really there is overunity we can utilize the wasted energy using "Tesla Switch". Remembered that we'd used a bulb's for feeding the big capacitor and preventing the shorts. In analogue way we can use the current after the big sparks to feed another capacitor (see what the tesla switch projects in the forum). That will definately increase the COP and make things possible.
But you may be see it's all thought and it need a lot of tries and mistakes to clear the way.
This is the way I am following and believe the same way as some of the people here.
Unfortunately I am still having problem with compression on my engine so I cannot help you guys more real world data currently. Although  I hope that I did helped somebody by my thoughts.

Thanks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 06, 2008, 07:12:03 PM
Hi everyone,

I want to give you all an update on my engine test . I spent all day yesterday working on the waste spark circuit idea I had using a latching relay as a spark skip circuit.  I originally thought the latching relay would work with a single pulse to flip (latch) the relay from side to side, well it does!  but the polarity of the switch needs to reverse back and forth also. That is the problem since I'm using a single switch to activate it. All my attempts to resolve this have lead to the relay to loop and not just a single flip. So that idea looks like it's not going to work.

About 2 weeks ago my friend Rick suggested a 2:1 timing belt and pulley arrangement to which I really liked the idea but when I found out the cost (about $100.) to get the parts locally I dropped that ideal until I have a proven system.

Anyways, I think I can do a basic test without the waste spark circuit as long as I don't pass TDC since the intake valve starts to opens just a hair after TDC . 

I built a really nice sliding timing position switch that I can move on the fly from about 30 degrees BTDC to 5 degrees ATDC.

Unfortunately today is raining and showing no signs of clearing and Sunday I have something happening all day, so it looks now like it's going to be Monday 

Stay tuned!

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 06, 2008, 07:35:11 PM
@luc:
Hi Luc,
Let me answer instead of Dread.
I went for Cap70 circuit because had to use over 65 diodes (every 1000v ) in order to prevent the HV spark going to the big capacitor. I this is thing that I found from from several days of tries/mistakes, it was really hard.
That's why tried the cap70 circuit and it started to work at once - so fast that I didn't believed it. Of course there is disadvantiges of the cap70 and it is important one. The traf used to get HV spark transformed to the first spark plug delivers very little of the HV spark because of the capacitors and transformers. That's you get something like 500pF energy @ 6000v which is enough for getting the effect same like with the diodes but not enough for getting effect in engine under compression (at TDS there is 8x pressure than at the room) and turbulention(from fuel/air incoming). However you can avoid also that by increasing the turns (& size) of the traf as also increasing the voltage of the capacitors.

@everyone:
Just wanted to share some thoughts which are objective and not influenced by overunity fanaticism.
I'd read several articles of Graneau (and son) works. These are the people that had studied the effect we trying to achieve here.
So the effect is real.
They believed that after effect the water molecules are splitted each other. The overunity energy came from the energy that is holding the H20 molecules together. And this from otherside is coming from the sun. However many people believed (even some of the people worked with P. Graneau) that his calculation about overunity of the effect are big mistake. But even if no mistake according to Graneau we getting overunity about 2 to input energy. Do you think that is enough for alternator to make energy so can feed the engine? I don't - that's why believe that s1r9a9m s work is lie (who knows?).
However there is something else, if really there is overunity we can utilize the wasted energy using "Tesla Switch". Remembered that we'd used a bulb's for feeding the big capacitor and preventing the shorts. In analogue way we can use the current after the big sparks to feed another capacitor (see what the tesla switch projects in the forum). That will definately increase the COP and make things possible.
But you may be see it's all thought and it need a lot of tries and mistakes to clear the way.
This is the way I am following and believe the same way as some of the people here.
Unfortunately I am still having problem with compression on my engine so I cannot help you guys more real world data currently. Although  I hope that I did helped somebody by my thoughts.

Thanks.

Hi vlindos,

thank you for sharing your capacitor70 circuit experience. Each system will have pros and cons but by working together we may find the most ideal method.

Thanks for also sharing your views on the Tesla switch. I think there could be a potential there but would tend to think using modern electronics for switching will be a dead end. Maybe spark gaps as switches with discharges of less than 10us may find better results?

Who knows ???

Maybe allcanadian has found something and is waiting ::) for us to see the light ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 06, 2008, 07:55:10 PM
Group,

There was a current flowing through the high side of the ignition coil from the low voltage driver circuit through the diode chain.
(In my CDI circuits posted earlier in this thread.)

This current leakage was not wanted so I have designed a new circuit proposal that have no leakage at all.
The new circuit uses high voltage high current diodes to insulate the ignition coil high voltage.

I hope you will find this circuit useful.

Groundloop.

Thanks you once again Groundloop for your continued interest, support and sharing of your circuit design ideas.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ezbruce on September 06, 2008, 10:27:03 PM
Hello guys !
this is my first post PLEASE be gentle with me. I found out that if you use a 4 post 12 v. relay across the coil ( pos. to the ground wire or points wire ) you can fire the High amp DC off the diode bridge. Some what in time to fire the plugs.However I don't know what  freq.that it will hold up to ( I.E. RPM of the engine.?) and how better can you charge the cap also seems to be a problem. All opinions greatfully appreciated. possible what is needed is two relays fired at the same time?.
thanks Bruce
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 06, 2008, 11:46:23 PM
Hello guys !
this is my first post PLEASE be gentle with me. I found out that if you use a 4 post 12 v. relay across the coil ( pos. to the ground wire or points wire ) you can fire the High amp DC off the diode bridge. Some what in time to fire the plugs.However I don't know what  freq.that it will hold up to ( I.E. RPM of the engine.?) and how better can you charge the cap also seems to be a problem. All opinions greatfully appreciated. possible what is needed is two relays fired at the same time?.
thanks Bruce

Welcome :D aboard Bruce,

unfortunately I can't help you with your request since we are not at the point of applying the circuit to an automobile at this time. Please note that this effect has no heat!... it stays cold!... even if it works for hours. We don't quite understand why the water reacts like it explodes. Some who have replicated are convinced that it also implodes immediately after the explosion. So with this said it will not make a standard combustion engine work on water alone at this time since you would need the water to expand, which needs heat to do that. Please read my recent post to get up to date as what I am suggesting to do to get the heat needed for expansion.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ezbruce on September 08, 2008, 03:48:03 PM
Welcome :D aboard Bruce,

unfortunately I can't help you with your request since we are not at the point of applying the circuit to an automobile at this time. Please note that this effect has no heat!... it stays cold!... even if it works for hours. We don't quite understand why the water reacts like it explodes. Some who have replicated are convinced that it also implodes immediately after the explosion. So with this said it will not make a standard combustion engine work on water alone at this time since you would need the water to expand, which needs heat to do that. Please read my recent post to get up to date as what I am suggesting to do to get the heat needed for expansion.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ezbruce on September 08, 2008, 04:08:30 PM
Hey guy's
Mr. Luc and all of the crew I have a slightly different thought process regarding this Plasma spark thing!!! Please fell free to comment or critique. Fist of all I think that we are trying to replicate a sort of controlled multi cycle tig welding machine only at a slightly lower amperage.For those that don't know a  tig welder uses a high voltage ,high freq. spark to start the lower voltage but much higher amperage current which we use to weld with. And also it can do this with not only DC current but, DC reverse and also AC current. I have the schematic available if some of you electronics Mr. Wizards would like . Please send me your fax number and I will asap resend back this doc. ( for those that wish to Google this it's a Miller 250 dial arc HF welder  this is on page 26.) This just MIGHT be helpfull if we can miniaturize the circuit and then employ it in any of our Ice's .
Just thinking out loud to the crowd.
Thanks
Bruce
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 08, 2008, 04:26:48 PM
Here is link to your welder owner's manual http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf .The schematic is on page 26. I think it's complicated to me because it doesn't show component's values and it uses complicated transformers.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 08, 2008, 05:01:17 PM
Hey guy's
Mr. Luc and all of the crew I have a slightly different thought process regarding this Plasma spark thing!!! Please fell free to comment or critique. Fist of all I think that we are trying to replicate a sort of controlled multi cycle tig welding machine only at a slightly lower amperage.For those that don't know a  tig welder uses a high voltage ,high freq. spark to start the lower voltage but much higher amperage current which we use to weld with. And also it can do this with not only DC current but, DC reverse and also AC current. I have the schematic available if some of you electronics Mr. Wizards would like . Please send me your fax number and I will asap resend back this doc. ( for those that wish to Google this it's a Miller 250 dial arc HF welder  this is on page 26.) This just MIGHT be helpfull if we can miniaturize the circuit and then employ it in any of our Ice's .
Just thinking out loud to the crowd.
Thanks
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

your analogy is correct! what we are doing is very close to a welder circuit. I tried to Google "Miller 250 dial arc HF welder" but too many finds come up to know which one you are referring too. Can you find the document you are talking about on the internet. Once you have the page in your browser just click once on the address bar (so the address is highlighted) and right click and select copy and then reply to this post and in the text body right click and select past. Make sure to leave a space at the beginning and the end of the address and post it. This way all can look up the document you are talking about as not many have fax machines anymore and why would you pay a long distance to fax this to a user in Indonesia if it's available for free on the www.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 08, 2008, 05:06:22 PM
Here is link to your welder owner's manual http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf .The schematic is on page 26. I think it's complicated to me because it doesn't show component's values and it uses complicated transformers.

Hi bxngoc,

thanks for your help ;D I don't see a schematic!...it looks like a part list to me :-\  I see 2 kinds of transformers and 2 capacitors.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AhuraMazda on September 08, 2008, 09:41:29 PM
Hi Luc
My first post on your thread. Thanks for sharing your findings.
Did you know you can eliminate your extra spark easily by using a "flipflop"?

One really has to look hard to sort the trash on the internet.
I really can't imagine the sick satisfaction that hoaxers get from
spreading their crap. I don't want to name names.
On the other hand, here is a guy which thinks out of the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp7hMUXjmI

Greetings
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 08, 2008, 10:10:42 PM
Hi Luc
My first post on your thread. Thanks for sharing your findings.
Did you know you can eliminate your extra spark easily by using a "flipflop"?

One really has to look hard to sort the trash on the internet.
I really can't imagine the sick satisfaction that hoaxers get from
spreading their crap. I don't want to name names.
On the other hand, here is a guy which thinks out of the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp7hMUXjmI

Greetings





Where can we find a flip-flop...How do they work....Are they costly...

Regards

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 08, 2008, 10:37:13 PM
Hi Luc
My first post on your thread. Thanks for sharing your findings.
Did you know you can eliminate your extra spark easily by using a "flipflop"?

One really has to look hard to sort the trash on the internet.
I really can't imagine the sick satisfaction that hoaxers get from
spreading their crap. I don't want to name names.
On the other hand, here is a guy which thinks out of the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp7hMUXjmI

Greetings


Hi AhuraMazda

thanks for looking and posting your comments in this topic. My electronics knowledge is very basic, so for me a quick idea of a flipflop circuit for a proof of concept of the half GEET engine without too much money spent was to use a latching relay (which I had).

It would be helpful if you could post a simple circuit that can use IRF640 or IRF840 (have some on hand) to miss every 2nd pulse of my trigger switch. I can usually follow a circuit :P

Thanks for sharing this great video. The guy seems to understand so much. I'll need to look at it a few times to absorb it all.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 08, 2008, 10:47:09 PM
@everyone,

I was looking for some past information and found this post from user: allcanadian. I'm re-posting it below (in blue) because I find it very interesting since at that time (July 21st) we were only talking of water use in the engine!... but allcanadian was way ahead of us as usual.

Link if you want: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg114417.html#msg114417

Thanks AC

Luc

@ALL
While the goal is to run on water there are alternatives, When I was 16(a very long time ago) I was running a 1600cc VW engine in a sand rail dunebuggy on 80% methanol + 1 liter octane booster. This would "cook" the engine in about 3 minutes I figured as the plugs had a "white" residue on them, think very very HOT. Most motor heads would tell you to increase the fuel to "cool" the engine as we do today but I did the opposite----I leaned it out further, and added a proportional water injection system ;).
The water vapor cooled the combustion chamber because every Kg of water added had to absorb 2257Kjoules of energy before it could flash to steam, the expansion ratio for water to steam is around 1:1000 so I got my good expansion ratio thus power without excessive heat running as lean a mixture as I wanted. There is actually a very interesting power curve here mid-throttle where decreasing fuel but not air or water results in decreased power so a gas engine can run like a diesel engine. So varying the fuel only can act as a form of speed control---a very efficient one at lean mixtures as the EGT is low.
With this explosive water arc ignition system very lean mixtures could be combusted in a consistent, reliable manner which was always the main issue I had to contend with. As well the lean mixture plus low EGT means emissions like NOX will be very low. Maybe a compromise between a pure water engine and a lean burn gas engine is an easier option for some----me for instance-- I like easy. ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AhuraMazda on September 09, 2008, 01:25:38 AM
@Luc

This is where you may find the data sheet for 4013 datasheet:
http://info.hobbyengineering.com/specs/FAIRCHILD-CD4013BC.pdf

And here is a basic circuit showing how to drive a FET.
Please note this circuit is not tested.
For every two pulses going into the clock input, the fet is clocked once.
the clock input must normally be pulled low by a 1mega ohm resistor.
The voltage to the chip should be no more than 15 volts.
This used to be a very common chip typically available from
http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H2107.html.


Regards


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 09, 2008, 02:07:10 AM
Hi bxngoc,

thanks for your help ;D I don't see a schematic!...it looks like a part list to me :-\  I see 2 kinds of transformers and 2 capacitors.

Luc
Sorry Schematic is in page 25
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 09, 2008, 05:10:57 AM
@Luc

This is where you may find the data sheet for 4013 datasheet:
http://info.hobbyengineering.com/specs/FAIRCHILD-CD4013BC.pdf

And here is a basic circuit showing how to drive a FET.
Please note this circuit is not tested.
For every two pulses going into the clock input, the fet is clocked once.
the clock input must normally be pulled low by a 1mega ohm resistor.
The voltage to the chip should be no more than 15 volts.
This used to be a very common chip typically available from
http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H2107.html.


Regards




Thanks AhuraMazda for the circuit. I found 7 of the 4013's on eBay for $1. plus $3. for shipping to Canada.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110267188656&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aussepom on September 09, 2008, 03:08:42 PM
Hi  All
               What uses can you think of for a flame from water I have a few.

  Oz Injector rises again and the second round of parts are shortly to be made, with the latest info, new hope for it.
2lts of water a min, 4cubic metres of 'gas a min'
LHV of the gas at 182,   rated at 12.8Mj per Cubic metre         
2,046MJ per hour,  or  1,027,199 btu per hour
This spewed out in a flame with a  temperature up to  2,800deg C  less if nitrogen (air) is mixed with it.
This is the SMALL ONE 
The large one 185,000 cubic metres of 'gas' a min,  94,625 Mj per Hour, or  47,507,952 btu per hour.
Ok  now I will await the abuse or interest. Hi turtle just popped in here to have a look
aussepom
   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 09, 2008, 04:33:57 PM
Hi  All
               What uses can you think of for a flame from water I have a few.

  Oz Injector rises again and the second round of parts are shortly to be made, with the latest info, new hope for it.
2lts of water a min, 4cubic metres of 'gas a min'
LHV of the gas at 182,   rated at 12.8Mj per Cubic metre         
2,046MJ per hour,  or  1,027,199 btu per hour
This spewed out in a flame with a  temperature up to  2,800deg C  less if nitrogen (air) is mixed with it.
This is the SMALL ONE 
The large one 185,000 cubic metres of 'gas' a min,  94,625 Mj per Hour, or  47,507,952 btu per hour.
Ok  now I will await the abuse or interest. Hi turtle just popped in here to have a look
aussepom

Hi aussepom,

I notice your post and I am wondering :-\ if this is the correct topic you wanted to post this in ???

All those number are impressive and I am sure everyone here would be interested in such a technology.
 
You are welcome to use this topic (to which I can moderate) to share your technology. If you chose to do so!...I ask you (to begin with) to only share what you have actually built and tested as a working technology. We would need a schematic of the working device, part list, photographs, videos what ever you can provide. Many here have talent in many areas and I'm sure they would be happy to help in the development.

This topic was started by full disclosure in the first post with the intent to help the World with a simple circuit that showed a real effect to water and it worked for most everyone who replicated right from the start. So if a new circuit is introduced to the topic I would expect no less and will help as much as I can to get it developed.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 09, 2008, 04:56:21 PM
@everyone,

yesterday I had a small break with the rain and tested my half GEET engine to find that the cam lobe I made on the flywheel to activate the timing switch is not long enough (on period) for the relay to trigger correctly. It worked by hand when I turn it but as soon as it turns faster it misses most of the time. Today again is rained out, so maybe tomorrow I'll do the mod and retest.

I'll post the video once I have it working.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on September 09, 2008, 05:20:51 PM
aussepom " Staggering figures " Will you share?
                   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 09, 2008, 06:03:52 PM
Pese,

Yes, thanks for your council. My visits here are becoming more infrequent with development of the engine, test rig, circuit, and high voltage multi-tasking switch, (don't even ask) etc.
The circuit mod. with the V-doubler has increased explosive compression.  @ 30PSI to around 35PSI. I will try with less resistance on the booster side and SS electrodes.

Luc.

I managed to blow my booster diode chain (7 X 1N5408's)  ;D 270uf 400V + doubler was fine. I added 3 x 100uf 400V caps and they died. Using a 12 diode chain now, it's fine but no pressure tests yet.

X-box.

Any idea, why I can't reproduce your explosive compression? Trying to remove variables here. Are you using an automotive HT (high voltage) lead or is it a solid core? Is my 100 ohm resistor too much? Any ideas?   

Rgds.
D.

You need a much longer string of diodes. I've been using two strings of 25 1N5408 in parallel. But each string of 25 seems to handle the massive power we are applying to the plugs. Explosive compression can only be found at levels of energy higher than 3 joules. We found this through trial and error. You cant immerse a plug in water and get it to fire on less than 5 joules, or so it seems through our experiments.

Like Luc said though, the higher voltages help so that you may get away with lower energy levels for the same effect by raising the voltage level but lowering capacitance. Luc's got a great system of running a variac into a microwave transformer. That was a great idea because it semi-isolates the variac and allow a major wide range of voltage levels.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on September 09, 2008, 08:14:12 PM
Explosive compression can only be found at levels of energy higher than 3 joules. We found this through trial and error. You cant immerse a plug in water and get it to fire on less than 5 joules, or so it seems through our experiments

Yeah I realised this, and generating 5+ joules for every spark at 3000 RPM is not gonna be easy.  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aussepom on September 09, 2008, 10:04:10 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

 Sorry about the intrusion but your thread was interesting as you seem to be trying out with  'spark plugs' high voltage etc, to get a 'good ' spark.
Is this what you want for  the engine to 'burn all the fuel' or are you tyring to produce a 'plasma arc' ?
A spark after all is 'plasma' the same as the lighting, it ionises the air making it easier for an arc or spark to travel in.   But there are other ways to produce ' plasma arc', I have had a thread running in another forum just on this, and some that have read that thread may still be wondering when it will happen.
If you use a high voltage by the way of the ht coil of  a car.
I have used a modified 'jacobs ladder' circuit to switch the input side at 140 to 150hz at about 120v on the 12volt input, but do not let the pulses fall any lower. There were some protective diodes across the switching transistor.
With this you do not need any  gap just break off the small outer electrode, I have had a spark over 1" 1/2 long from this, with a plug it just arcs all over. 
I should then if  I wanted to continue on this, start a new thread.
aussepom
                   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: flyag1 on September 09, 2008, 10:34:41 PM

aussepom wrote:

"I have had a thread running in another forum just on this, and some that have read that thread may still be wondering when it will happen.
If you use a high voltage by the way of the ht coil of  a car."

Could you point us to the thread you speak of,  so that we may see your ideas?  Maybe up load a diagram of your circuit?

Thanks,

Dale
                   

[/quote]
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on September 09, 2008, 10:42:00 PM
Aussepom   Also the very high" gas'" production. Please start a thread [or stay here if LUC feels its appropriate}
            Thanks      Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on September 09, 2008, 11:33:19 PM
UncleFester

(great name btw)

Thanks for the info. I considered lowering the capacitance but I need it for the sub circuit that I am working on (getting close now) when I get it working, I will publish here. If it works, it will change everything.
In the mean time, I would like to progress with the coil system from the Water Sparkplug forum, but specifics and a general review of my findings will be here.
My sole aim is explosive compression. How I achieve it, Diodes or coil matters not.

Rgds
Dread
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 09, 2008, 11:51:59 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

 Sorry about the intrusion but your thread was interesting as you seem to be trying out with  'spark plugs' high voltage etc, to get a 'good ' spark.
Is this what you want for  the engine to 'burn all the fuel' or are you tyring to produce a 'plasma arc' ?
A spark after all is 'plasma' the same as the lighting, it ionises the air making it easier for an arc or spark to travel in.   But there are other ways to produce ' plasma arc', I have had a thread running in another forum just on this, and some that have read that thread may still be wondering when it will happen.
If you use a high voltage by the way of the ht coil of  a car.
I have used a modified 'jacobs ladder' circuit to switch the input side at 140 to 150hz at about 120v on the 12volt input, but do not let the pulses fall any lower. There were some protective diodes across the switching transistor.
With this you do not need any  gap just break off the small outer electrode, I have had a spark over 1" 1/2 long from this, with a plug it just arcs all over. 
I should then if  I wanted to continue on this, start a new thread.
aussepom

Hi aussepom,

to make sure things are clear!... I offered you to post your findings in this topic if you wish, since I think this would give a good head start since many are keeping track of what is going on here. The moderator privilege I have are also useful since I can edit posts. So when you have updates I can post them all on the first page no.1 post so everyone can easily find them.

Just keep in mind that we need the information to be clear and complete (the same way I started this topic)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 12:12:02 AM
You need a much longer string of diodes. I've been using two strings of 25 1N5408 in parallel. But each string of 25 seems to handle the massive power we are applying to the plugs. Explosive compression can only be found at levels of energy higher than 3 joules. We found this through trial and error. You cant immerse a plug in water and get it to fire on less than 5 joules, or so it seems through our experiments.

Like Luc said though, the higher voltages help so that you may get away with lower energy levels for the same effect by raising the voltage level but lowering capacitance. Luc's got a great system of running a variac into a microwave transformer. That was a great idea because it semi-isolates the variac and allow a major wide range of voltage levels.

Thank you UncleFester for confirming my findings and the idea of using a microwave transformer with the variac.

@everyone, please be extremely careful with this MOT setup since you can easily reach voltages of over 3,000 volts since some variac can close to double the voltage of your AC input.

You will also need HV shielded wire and to stay focused of all the materials you are using in close proximity of you experiment. This stuff is no joke, it can kill you as fast as a lightning strike :o.

Play safe so you can live to share ;D

Luc

P.S. @ UncleFester, I also like your user name!... it's really catchy ;)


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 12:22:36 AM
UncleFester

(great name btw)

Thanks for the info. I considered lowering the capacitance but I need it for the sub circuit that I am working on (getting close now) when I get it working, I will publish here. If it works, it will change everything.
In the mean time, I would like to progress with the coil system from the Water Sparkplug forum, but specifics and a general review of my findings will be here.
My sole aim is explosive compression. How I achieve it, Diodes or coil matters not.

Rgds
Dread

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Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread, Go Dread,

May you be successful in your findings ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 10, 2008, 02:22:48 AM
UncleFester

(great name btw)

Thanks for the info. I considered lowering the capacitance but I need it for the sub circuit that I am working on (getting close now) when I get it working, I will publish here. If it works, it will change everything.
In the mean time, I would like to progress with the coil system from the Water Sparkplug forum, but specifics and a general review of my findings will be here.
My sole aim is explosive compression. How I achieve it, Diodes or coil matters not.

Rgds
Dread

Go for it! The higher you can keep the voltage the better. We ran some tests today with a high speed camera (125,000 frames per second max) and found some amazing stuff happening. We were running in the 50+ joule range and tried a bit of water on it for fun. We found that it does create even more compression from the water, but I'm still concerned about the amount of pressure it's producing per pulse. We were finding limited pressure (25-40 psi) per pulse at 50 joules in a 100cc chamber. We ran all the way up to 415 joules (502 volts @ 3300uF pulse discharge cap once per second) and it works better but still not sure how much power will be available from the water explosion inside a combustion chamber from it even though it sounds like a shotgun blast going off inside the lab.. Of course like you stated as well it will be difficult to create enough power from the alternator, etc to feed a 5 joule @ 60 times per second ignition system. The plugs also seem to disintegrate rapidly at 50+ joules, although it may still be workable at these energy levels. At 400+ joules it's a different story LOL! These poor plugs were taking a real beating  ;D

Hopefully our investor will let us post some footage of the plugs across a wide range of power levels and at different frame rates. Super slow motion showed a spark from the HV coil followed immediately by a massive flow of current and a ball of plasma about the size of a grapefruit then falling off slowly into a shower of molten (or maybe vaporized) cloud of metal from the plug. This cloud seems to form a diameter of about tennis ball size before fading out. A normal plug with electrode cut off shoots a flame straight up, while the FireStorm plug creates a definite ball of plasma strangely enough.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 02:42:37 AM
Go for it! The higher you can keep the voltage the better. We ran some tests today with a high speed camera (125,000 frames per second max) and found some amazing stuff happening. We were running in the 50+ joule range and tried a bit of water on it for fun. We found that it does create even more compression from the water, but I'm still concerned about the amount of pressure it's producing per pulse. We were finding limited pressure (25-40 psi) per pulse at 50 joules in a 100cc chamber. We ran all the way up to 415 joules (502 volts @ 3300uF pulse discharge cap once per second) and it works better but still not sure how much power will be available from the water explosion inside a combustion chamber from it even though it sounds like a shotgun blast going off inside the lab.. Of course like you stated as well it will be difficult to create enough power from the alternator, etc to feed a 5 joule @ 60 times per second ignition system. The plugs also seem to disintegrate rapidly at 50+ joules, although it may still be workable at these energy levels. At 400+ joules it's a different story LOL! These poor plugs were taking a real beating  ;D

Hopefully our investor will let us post some footage of the plugs across a wide range of power levels and at different frame rates. Super slow motion showed a spark from the HV coil followed immediately by a massive flow of current and a ball of plasma about the size of a grapefruit then falling off slowly into a shower of molten (or maybe vaporized) cloud of metal from the plug. This cloud seems to form a diameter of about tennis ball size before fading out. A normal plug with electrode cut off shoots a flame straight up, while the FireStorm plug creates a definite ball of plasma strangely enough.

UncleFester...415 joules :o ... must of been FUN ;D

Thanks for the update and it would be nice to see some pics of that.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 06:22:45 AM


Hi UncleFester,

I need your help or opinion if you can. Today I finally had time to drive to the US border (1hour each way) to picked up the MSD 8261 Performance Coil I had ordered some weeks back. I'm now testing the coil by manually charging and then discharging a 6.8uf capacitor in the primary. The coil only started to make a HV spark once my cap got around the 50vdc range. Would you happen to know anything about this coils driver characteristics?

Thanks for your help

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 10, 2008, 07:04:37 AM
It appears as though it is a mosfet driven system, maybe with a charging side that charges a cap up to about 450 volts, but the cap must be small, because the effect is not like the larger capacitive discharge you see using an SCR or relay. Also, you get multiple discharges per crank signal and the color is a whitish yellow. This is the same effect Krupa shows in his earlier videos. The switching sound coming from the driver is characteristically mosfet or igbt, the same type of sound you hear from a modern day inverter type TIG welder. Bob say's that the output from these drivers is nowhere near what we was getting in his original videos, and to the naked eye it appears he is right. You see the streamers of HV across the plug but not the plasma effect we are looking for. Also, the units shut down when the diode string is used, they simply will not work with it in place and thus you rely solely on the rated output of the driver and coil. We have used 5 different coils. One was called a flamethrower, blaster3, blaster2, and I can't remember what the other two were, but they were drag racing coils made by Accell. Now, I have not run these 1 joule drivers in parallel but I will try that next week and see if it makes a difference. We have 5 of them and so I might try running a filtered supply from the variac and see how high I can go before it lets the smoke out  ;D


Bob claims that this 1 joule driver is what was used, but he say's it may have been used at higher voltages than it was originally designed for. He calls it the adrenaline ignition which at the time was brand new technology and only custom built on a one off basis for dragsters, etc. Now these drivers can be purchased but are a staggering $10,000 American dollars per unit. I would cut off a finger to have a schematic but clearly that's not going to happen. We can try and design a unit similar to the 555 charge pump and discharge side like I've seen posted, but I would imagine we would need some ISOTOP style packaged Mosfets with 800 volt @ 50 ampere rating or so in order to make it realiable and capable of 5 joules or so.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aussepom on September 10, 2008, 07:28:11 AM
Hi Guys
The figures I quoted are real, you can work it out for you self quite easily.
It is well known that a litre of water can produce HOH with electrolysis the gas amount is also a fact 1 litre for 2065liters of HOH. (Browns gas) though this is wrong he did not invent it.
If you can process water correctly this is what you can achieve at 100% change.
Now this HOH gas is NOT FULLY DISSASOSIATED. Just stretched out like an elastic band, it takes energy to stretch it, and a little less to hold it in the stretched position, when you ignite it, it will release the energy and then return to its original shape from 2 cubic metres of 'gas space'  back to 1 litre of water. Do this in a sealed container and you will create a vacuum with 1,999 litres and one litre of water.
You will have a potential lift pressure of  19.7lb/sq" this test can be seen on Utube, Allgoodautomation.
I did not agree with the work done energy as the time that it took to do it was not timed, and I do not think it could be done due to the extreamley fast flame speed of HOH.

      Calculated      
      Gas HOH         
lts/hr   water   2065/ltr      cubic M   
   lts min   lts/min   lts/sec   min   sec
60   1   2,065   34.42   2.065   0.034
108   1.8   3,717   61.95   3.717   0.062
150   2.5   5,163   86.05   5.163   0.086
300   5   10,325   172.08   10.325   0.172
390   6.5   13,423   223.72   13.423   0.224
750   12.5   25,813   430.22   25.813   0.430
960   16   33,040   550.67   33.04   0.551
2,160   36   74,340   1239.00   74.34   1.239
2,580   43   88,795   1479.92   88.795   1.480
4,200   70   144,550   2409.17   144.55   2.409
5,400   90   185,850   3097.50   185.85   3.098
This table is just what you could achieve with HOH.

How ever if you fully DISSASOSIATE, you will have to take the LHV of the separate gases in the correct formula to get the LHV, I have such a programme I can mix any gas in any quantity it will give me all the relative information.  That why the LHV I quoted is at 182 and the 12.8 is the MJ value per Cubic metre. THIS IS NOT THE LHV FOR HOH, no one has proven this and given the LHV value, some has have tried with some guess work.
This may not fit very well in your thread but it is information that you may find useful.
It may give you insight to what can happen inside you ICE engine, when with just a small amount of HOH could lift your energy up by 1% .
Ok Luc I hope this is useful information, please do as you wish with it.
aussepom     
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on September 10, 2008, 07:50:17 AM
Aussepom ( and others )

I have posted the idea of adding basically 4 spark plugs per cylinder to enable delivery of a large ammount of energy to the water vapour ( or GEET fumes ).

What do you think? My idea is that perhaps one plug just isnt going to deliver enough kick ass to make it happen......or is too concentrated in its power delivery.

My thinking is that :

(1) Water needs a serious boot to get it to crack ( stretch ) initially....
(2) Water is not like petrol ( gas ) which is combustible right away - it needs to be "stretched" ( converted ) inside the engine first
(3) Perhaps it needs two boots, one quickly after the other - first to crack, the second to ginite.


I keep grinding on this subject ( and get politely ignored ) coz people expect water to behave like gas and burn like gas - but it aint gas......

Thoughts flames/abuse welcome......
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 04:35:43 PM
It appears as though it is a mosfet driven system, maybe with a charging side that charges a cap up to about 450 volts, but the cap must be small, because the effect is not like the larger capacitive discharge you see using an SCR or relay. Also, you get multiple discharges per crank signal and the color is a whitish yellow. This is the same effect Krupa shows in his earlier videos. The switching sound coming from the driver is characteristically mosfet or igbt, the same type of sound you hear from a modern day inverter type TIG welder. Bob say's that the output from these drivers is nowhere near what we was getting in his original videos, and to the naked eye it appears he is right. You see the streamers of HV across the plug but not the plasma effect we are looking for. Also, the units shut down when the diode string is used, they simply will not work with it in place and thus you rely solely on the rated output of the driver and coil. We have used 5 different coils. One was called a flamethrower, blaster3, blaster2, and I can't remember what the other two were, but they were drag racing coils made by Accell. Now, I have not run these 1 joule drivers in parallel but I will try that next week and see if it makes a difference. We have 5 of them and so I might try running a filtered supply from the variac and see how high I can go before it lets the smoke out  ;D


Bob claims that this 1 joule driver is what was used, but he say's it may have been used at higher voltages than it was originally designed for. He calls it the adrenaline ignition which at the time was brand new technology and only custom built on a one off basis for dragsters, etc. Now these drivers can be purchased but are a staggering $10,000 American dollars per unit. I would cut off a finger to have a schematic but clearly that's not going to happen. We can try and design a unit similar to the 555 charge pump and discharge side like I've seen posted, but I would imagine we would need some ISOTOP style packaged Mosfets with 800 volt @ 50 ampere rating or so in order to make it realiable and capable of 5 joules or so.

Thank you once again UncleFester for taking the time to explain what you and Bob know about these coils. I have some HV 1uf caps!... do you think a 1uf charged to 450vdc would still too much to drive the coil?

I haven't yet tried it with the diode setup and find it strange that it would just stop working ???

I did not get some SCR's yet since the local electronic store I use only had 2 models in stock and neither were the model of Groundloop's schematic. So I though I would wait till I see feedback from users as which SCR works best but no one has posted any info. Since you are doing very serious switching, may I ask you what you have found that works best for this application?  is it an SCR's or Power MOSFET? and what would be the part number?

Thank you UncleFester for your help and sharing the experiment you are doing at this time.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ezbruce on September 10, 2008, 04:48:11 PM
Mr. LUC
I will try to get the Miller welder schematic here. http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315p_mil.pdf

WOW it works Ha-HA-HA I take back everything I was thinking about Bill Gates...
Back to our business .
Please look at the lower Right hand side of the schematic.Around T-2 and T-3   there are a few caps and some resistors. Mixing the two different signals together on a single wire can and has been done for many years. I will explane how to make a spark box later this is a method of separating the two signals,and not having a short in the system.

note that the work represents the ground of the spark plug.And the electrode represents the center of the plug( ALSO NOTE THAT IN A TIG welder you can change the DC politary or go to AC if needed.)
For all you electronics guys I hope that this just might be the breakthrough we need.So far I have not been able to use a "piggyback" current to get a Plasma on my spark plugs.I will never claim to be a electronic wizz. but I can solder up circuits ( also burn them up on occasion) and try different hook ups.IN SAYING THIS HAS ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO GET A HIGH AMP CHARGE TO ' PIGGYBACK 'AS OF YET??? Please fell free to comment . thanks for the computer lesson Mr.LUC
thanks   Bruce
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 05:19:11 PM
Hi Guys
The figures I quoted are real, you can work it out for you self quite easily.
It is well known that a litre of water can produce HOH with electrolysis the gas amount is also a fact 1 litre for 2065liters of HOH. (Browns gas) though this is wrong he did not invent it.
If you can process water correctly this is what you can achieve at 100% change.
Now this HOH gas is NOT FULLY DISSASOSIATED. Just stretched out like an elastic band, it takes energy to stretch it, and a little less to hold it in the stretched position, when you ignite it, it will release the energy and then return to its original shape from 2 cubic metres of 'gas space'  back to 1 litre of water. Do this in a sealed container and you will create a vacuum with 1,999 litres and one litre of water.
You will have a potential lift pressure of  19.7lb/sq" this test can be seen on Utube, Allgoodautomation.
I did not agree with the work done energy as the time that it took to do it was not timed, and I do not think it could be done due to the extreamley fast flame speed of HOH.

      Calculated      
      Gas HOH         
lts/hr   water   2065/ltr      cubic M   
   lts min   lts/min   lts/sec   min   sec
60   1   2,065   34.42   2.065   0.034
108   1.8   3,717   61.95   3.717   0.062
150   2.5   5,163   86.05   5.163   0.086
300   5   10,325   172.08   10.325   0.172
390   6.5   13,423   223.72   13.423   0.224
750   12.5   25,813   430.22   25.813   0.430
960   16   33,040   550.67   33.04   0.551
2,160   36   74,340   1239.00   74.34   1.239
2,580   43   88,795   1479.92   88.795   1.480
4,200   70   144,550   2409.17   144.55   2.409
5,400   90   185,850   3097.50   185.85   3.098
This table is just what you could achieve with HOH.

How ever if you fully DISSASOSIATE, you will have to take the LHV of the separate gases in the correct formula to get the LHV, I have such a programme I can mix any gas in any quantity it will give me all the relative information.  That why the LHV I quoted is at 182 and the 12.8 is the MJ value per Cubic metre. THIS IS NOT THE LHV FOR HOH, no one has proven this and given the LHV value, some has have tried with some guess work.
This may not fit very well in your thread but it is information that you may find useful.
It may give you insight to what can happen inside you ICE engine, when with just a small amount of HOH could lift your energy up by 1% .
Ok Luc I hope this is useful information, please do as you wish with it.
aussepom     


Hi aussepom,

thank you for posting these calculations. I'm not sure what LHV stands for!... is it, Liter Hydrogen Value?

If I understand this correctly, you are are sharing results of not fully disassociated water to HOH!... it is just in a stretched state as you say and you have tested water in this stretched state and have come up with this data?... is my understanding correct?

If this is correct, then you have the missing link we are all looking for and this would works perfectly with this topic since what we need is a way of preparing the water for our spark.

What would we use (circuit or device) to condition the water to this stretched state and keep it this way till combustion?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 10, 2008, 05:55:00 PM
Mr. LUC
I will try to get the Miller welder schematic here. http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315p_mil.pdf

WOW it works Ha-HA-HA I take back everything I was thinking about Bill Gates...
Back to our business .
Please look at the lower Right hand side of the schematic.Around T-2 and T-3   there are a few caps and some resistors. Mixing the two different signals together on a single wire can and has been done for many years. I will explane how to make a spark box later this is a method of separating the two signals,and not having a short in the system.

note that the work represents the ground of the spark plug.And the electrode represents the center of the plug( ALSO NOTE THAT IN A TIG welder you can change the DC politary or go to AC if needed.)
For all you electronics guys I hope that this just might be the breakthrough we need.So far I have not been able to use a "piggyback" current to get a Plasma on my spark plugs.I will never claim to be a electronic wizz. but I can solder up circuits ( also burn them up on occasion) and try different hook ups.IN SAYING THIS HAS ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO GET A HIGH AMP CHARGE TO ' PIGGYBACK 'AS OF YET??? Please fell free to comment . thanks for the computer lesson Mr.LUC
thanks   Bruce

Hi ezBruce,

thanks for sharing. I attached the circuit to your post above which will make it easier for those who want to look at it. I don't have time to look at it now since it's a sunny day today and I have to make changes to my engine and re-test.

Everyone is welcome to join in please.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aussepom on September 10, 2008, 09:41:35 PM
Hi Guys

If you are interested I could try and fine that modified HT circuit using the 'Jacobs ladder' for your spark plug experiment, this has been done before using a plug that I have been trying to get the number of for quite a while, I do know that one plug is a NGK. If I can find the info I will post it that’s if you are interested.
How ever the OZ Injector will be using high energy 'plasma arc', but you can modify this plug to feed water mist though it and produce a very large blue flash as the water 'burns', the only problem with this it is not very stable using high voltage.

 

this one  is a Champion Industrial Spark Plug w/non-fouler from a auto-parts store.

Champion  Industrial plug  220  FI21501  $8.02 from the USA

aussepom
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 11, 2008, 12:45:40 AM
@everyone,

today was a sunny day in Ottawa, so I did my timing switch mod and tested the engine just to find more problems with my ignition switching causing too many spark misses, so I failed to get the engine started today.

I did do a video of the test even though it failed :-[  If anyone is interested in seeing the setup. It is uploaded on the new Energetic Forum video hosting service called EnergeticTube: http://www.energetictube.com/play/Energy__Unsorted/Half_GEET_Plasma_Engine_Test

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on September 11, 2008, 01:27:54 AM
LUC  Nice settup!!! can't wait for results
STEPHAN how come we don't have overunity tube ?
                   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 11, 2008, 05:06:29 AM
Thank you once again UncleFester for taking the time to explain what you and Bob know about these coils. I have some HV 1uf caps!... do you think a 1uf charged to 450vdc would still too much to drive the coil?

I haven't yet tried it with the diode setup and find it strange that it would just stop working ???

I did not get some SCR's yet since the local electronic store I use only had 2 models in stock and neither were the model of Groundloop's schematic. So I though I would wait till I see feedback from users as which SCR works best but no one has posted any info. Since you are doing very serious switching, may I ask you what you have found that works best for this application?  is it an SCR's or Power MOSFET? and what would be the part number?

Thank you UncleFester for your help and sharing the experiment you are doing at this time.

Luc


SCR's are the only devices I've been able to get to work reliably up to 1000 volts @ 25 amp. The one I fried was 1200V @ 300A I believe, but you can find NTE parts that are available and rated for 1200V @ 25A and cost about $12 a piece. I will go grab the part number from them. The one in GroundLoops circuit is way, way too small, those pop like popcorn even at 2 joules. The mosfet for the ignition driver that would run off a car electronic system would be similar to this one: http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/99477.pdf

That would be for the charging side to drive a step-up coil to charge a 50uF @ 800V cap. Then the charged cap could be discharged through an SCR and give us around 5 joules. I already have the charging side designed, and I have a processor controlled version already built except for the discharge portion of the circuit. It uses a PIC 12F683 (8 pin) processor, has two snubbers across the step-up coil and appears to work well so far. The discharge side would be fired once the processor see's the cap at full charge for bench testing, and the same input can be used for a crank trigger signal from a very simple coil sitting above the crank magnet.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 11, 2008, 07:00:41 AM
UncleFester,

The TIC106 used in my circuit is good enough to make the initial spark on a spark plug.
It is rated 5 ampere (much higher when pulsed) and with the CDI capacitor at 2uF2 the drive is plenty to start the spark.
The main power to get plasma then comes from the capacitor before the diode chain. The proposed
diodes is LT10A07. Those diodes can take 10 ampere (much higher when pulsed). I have built and tested my circuit as
a CDI system. It works just fine. That said, there is no problem with using a bigger SCR and a bigger CDI capacitor.

I have started a research project converting a 1,5HP water pump. My main goal is first is to add a CDI circuit and plasma
enhancer to the motor. I will replace the water pump with a generator. Then I will add a water injector and try to run
the motor with brown gas (HHO) and water as cooling. Attached is my design so far.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ezbruce on September 11, 2008, 04:26:18 PM
good morning Mr. LUC
I just watched you video on your converted lawn mower.One of the major problems with a single is balance.If you do not have a blade on the mower ( I.E. some sort of a flywheel ) they are difficult to start and run. Possibly because of the sensitivity of your P/U switch which just MIGHT be jumping around.( Just a thought trying to help)also a big thank you for the TIG schematic I could not get it to get that big. In the lower right hand of the drawing at the High freq(high voltage)CR-2 and CR-1 most probably would have the same value. these are controlled buy the operator and for our need lets just say we are going to use the continuous one ,since we are.This current goes to a transformer which goes through another transformer with another cap (C-2 )as of yet this value un known.this signal seems to mix with another lower value transformer value ( for us this could be the High amp DC side) and out comes what we need a plasma spark Bang, and in Nano seconds disassociation.If you or ANY OR YOUR ELECTRONICS GUY'S this method just might work for us,  ALL YOU GUY'S PLEASE CRITIQUE AND COMMENT AND TRY TO COME UP WITH ANOTHER SCHEMATIC.


Thanks  Bruce
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 11, 2008, 07:23:23 PM
UncleFester,

The TIC106 used in my circuit is good enough to make the initial spark on a spark plug.
It is rated 5 ampere (much higher when pulsed) and with the CDI capacitor at 2uF2 the drive is plenty to start the spark.
The main power to get plasma then comes from the capacitor before the diode chain. The proposed
diodes is LT10A07. Those diodes can take 10 ampere (much higher when pulsed). I have built and tested my circuit as
a CDI system. It works just fine. That said, there is no problem with using a bigger SCR and a bigger CDI capacitor.

I have started a research project converting a 1,5HP water pump. My main goal is first is to add a CDI circuit and plasma
enhancer to the motor. I will replace the water pump with a generator. Then I will add a water injector and try to run
the motor with brown gas (HHO) and water as cooling. Attached is my design so far.

Groundloop.

Hi Alex,

It works fine at low power levels, but at 3 joules it doesn't work. We need more than 3 joules to get good water splitting, and preferably 5 joules or more. Best energy is going to be 450-600 volts @ 50uF. That looks like a great engine for this project. We have two generators we are converting, one is a Chonda (Chinese Honda clone) 5.5 Horse and a 3.5 horsepower real Honda. The Chonda will use the standard GEET reactor and the smaller Honda is getting a custom unit that Bob Krupa designed.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 11, 2008, 08:13:16 PM
SCR's are the only devices I've been able to get to work reliably up to 1000 volts @ 25 amp. The one I fried was 1200V @ 300A I believe, but you can find NTE parts that are available and rated for 1200V @ 25A and cost about $12 a piece. I will go grab the part number from them. The one in GroundLoops circuit is way, way too small, those pop like popcorn even at 2 joules. The mosfet for the ignition driver that would run off a car electronic system would be similar to this one: http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/99477.pdf

That would be for the charging side to drive a step-up coil to charge a 50uF @ 800V cap. Then the charged cap could be discharged through an SCR and give us around 5 joules. I already have the charging side designed, and I have a processor controlled version already built except for the discharge portion of the circuit. It uses a PIC 12F683 (8 pin) processor, has two snubbers across the step-up coil and appears to work well so far. The discharge side would be fired once the processor see's the cap at full charge for bench testing, and the same input can be used for a crank trigger signal from a very simple coil sitting above the crank magnet.

@UncleFester

Thank you once again UncleFester for your help and advice on the SCR's. After testing my switching circuit (indoors) last night, I have come to the conclusion that the relay was causing the inconsistencies. I must move on to the SCR switching :P  I'll check today with another local electronic store to see what hey have available in stock. If I can't get it in town it will be ordering it on the internet and it will take more than a week to get them.

Luc

UncleFester,

The TIC106 used in my circuit is good enough to make the initial spark on a spark plug.
It is rated 5 ampere (much higher when pulsed) and with the CDI capacitor at 2uF2 the drive is plenty to start the spark.
The main power to get plasma then comes from the capacitor before the diode chain. The proposed
diodes is LT10A07. Those diodes can take 10 ampere (much higher when pulsed). I have built and tested my circuit as
a CDI system. It works just fine. That said, there is no problem with using a bigger SCR and a bigger CDI capacitor.

I have started a research project converting a 1,5HP water pump. My main goal is first is to add a CDI circuit and plasma
enhancer to the motor. I will replace the water pump with a generator. Then I will add a water injector and try to run
the motor with brown gas (HHO) and water as cooling. Attached is my design so far.

Groundloop.

@Groundloop

Hi Groundloop, I'm moving to your circuit but I will need an SCR that can handle minimum 800vdc and would much prefer to use 3,000vdc. My tests show that increased voltage and reducing capacitance give a better result than just increasing capacitance. This video demonstrates that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJVbA8Upvs  UncleFester has also noticed and confirmed this.

So if I'm going to build a solid state circuit, I would like it to be heavier on the voltage switching capability than the amperage if at all possible.

I like your HHO water injection project. This is an excellent direction. A fine mist of water injected at the most Intense heat point is going to make any combustion engine work with minimal energy in and minimal energy wasted out of the exhaust!...which should change the average 30% energy at the crank to over 70%

You will succeed with this!...we should of been doing this a long time ago!... actually my friend Rick and I were talking about this last week. He is over 70 y.o. and originally form Great Britain and worked most his life as a mechanical engineer and says they were doing that with the first Turbo Prop Aircraft's to keep the engines from melting.

Luc
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 11, 2008, 08:18:38 PM
good morning Mr. LUC
I just watched you video on your converted lawn mower.One of the major problems with a single is balance.If you do not have a blade on the mower ( I.E. some sort of a flywheel ) they are difficult to start and run. Possibly because of the sensitivity of your P/U switch which just MIGHT be jumping around.( Just a thought trying to help)also a big thank you for the TIG schematic I could not get it to get that big. In the lower right hand of the drawing at the High freq(high voltage)CR-2 and CR-1 most probably would have the same value. these are controlled buy the operator and for our need lets just say we are going to use the continuous one ,since we are.This current goes to a transformer which goes through another transformer with another cap (C-2 )as of yet this value un known.this signal seems to mix with another lower value transformer value ( for us this could be the High amp DC side) and out comes what we need a plasma spark Bang, and in Nano seconds disassociation.If you or ANY OR YOUR ELECTRONICS GUY'S this method just might work for us,  ALL YOU GUY'S PLEASE CRITIQUE AND COMMENT AND TRY TO COME UP WITH ANOTHER SCHEMATIC.

Thanks  Bruce

Hi ezBruce,

since I'm not a real electronic guy all I can do is what I'm doing now. I reattached the schematic to your last post to make it easier for those who are reading your post to look at what you are pointing out. If you have the ability to test this I would advise for you to do so, as many here have many projects on the go and may not get involve!... but let us see.

After testing my switching circuit (indoors) last night, I have come to the conclusion that the relay is causing the inconsistencies. I must move on to the SCR switching :P

I'll try another local electronic store to see what hey have.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 11, 2008, 08:41:05 PM
UncleFester,

The main energy to the spark plug does NOT come from the CDI circuit. It is coming from the Inverter.
If you increase C10 (in my circuit drawing) then you increase the energy going to the plug. Also,
if you increase the voltage to the inverter you get the same result. To increase the inverter output
voltage just use a voltage doubler. I will probably use a home made transformer on the inverter
that gives me approx. 600 volt AC. The TIC106D can be replaced with any type of SCR as long as
the drive resistors on the opto coupler is changed to give the correct trigger current. Looking forward
to hear your results with your motors.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 11, 2008, 10:02:21 PM
Well it turns out the other electronic retail store have more selection in stock!... but one would needs lots of cash.

They want $32.00 for a NTE5558 800v 25a  and $16.00 for a 800v 10a

And they won't pay me for gas to drive to the other end of town either :P

Looks like eBay is the way for my zero budget

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 11, 2008, 10:15:24 PM
@everyone,

below is a pictures of Greg's and then Jetijs's (Energetic Forum user name: gmeast and Jetijs) 2:1 gear assembly for removing the waste spark on their ICE Generators which they are converting to plasma spark. I like Greg's simple solution of a difficult situation since the engine had no accessible areas to install a gear, so he used the end of the generator side shaft. Not too sure where Jetijs will be installing his finely machined polycarbonate gears.

Great work Greg and Jetijs, thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 12, 2008, 12:53:34 AM
UncleFester,

The main energy to the spark plug does NOT come from the CDI circuit. It is coming from the Inverter.
If you increase C10 (in my circuit drawing) then you increase the energy going to the plug. Also,
if you increase the voltage to the inverter you get the same result. To increase the inverter output
voltage just use a voltage doubler. I will probably use a home made transformer on the inverter
that gives me approx. 600 volt AC. The TIC106D can be replaced with any type of SCR as long as
the drive resistors on the opto coupler is changed to give the correct trigger current. Looking forward
to hear your results with your motors.

Groundloop.




@GroundLoop

I understand, that is why I am using a system similar to Luc's. It is a variac into a microwave transformer, then FWB. I have been able to go up to 2KV @ 1uF, but I use a spark gap to discharge the cap at these voltages. I can go all the way up to 1000V @ 50uF (25 joules) by using the SCR. My SCR setup makes the SCR handle the entire discharge current of the cap (capacitor is parallel to the primary of the coil and diode string and SCR is series on the Anode side of the circuit). With an HV relay I can go all the way up to 400 joules discharge but the rep rate is slow (although only one pulse almost destroys the plug). Every time the coil fires it jumps about 2mm off the table from the inductive kick, and the diode strings I use barely handle the output (I use 25-1N5408's in series, and two strings of them in parallel for more current).

I used your circuit with the cap in series with the primary of the coil but I could not get enough energy across the plug to explode water. I beefed up all the components to handle higher voltages and currents and it exploded water then but I still did not get enough energy to create high pressures in a closed chamber. 5 or more Joules is needed and even then the pressure created from exploding the water is not more than 5-10 psi per pulse and we need more like 75 psi per pulse to drive a small engine I believe.

@GotoLuc

I paid 12 a piece for the 1200V @ 25A ones in Salt lake City, UT. Not sure why they would be that much more expensive there unless these were NOS (new old stock).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 12, 2008, 01:17:50 AM
UncleFester,

OK. I understand what you are trying to do and in your case you probably need that high energy.

In my case I only need a little more energy than a normal spark because I do not want exploding
water, I want exploding Brown gas. Then I will use water injection as cooling. My first attempt
will use regular petrol (gas) but with the motor in a lean configuration. When I lean the gas/air mixture the
motor gets hotter. To keep the heat down I will inject water. Then maybe it will be possible to run the motor
with much less gas usage? My main problem is to find space for the water injector.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 12, 2008, 03:29:09 AM
UncleFester,

OK. I understand what you are trying to do and in your case you probably need that high energy.

In my case I only need a little more energy than a normal spark because I do not want exploding
water, I want exploding Brown gas. Then I will use water injection as cooling. My first attempt
will use regular petrol (gas) but with the motor in a lean configuration. When I lean the gas/air mixture the
motor gets hotter. To keep the heat down I will inject water. Then maybe it will be possible to run the motor
with much less gas usage? My main problem is to find space for the water injector.

Groundloop.

The finer the fuel is vaporized the cooler it will run. Bob Krupa was running a Ford V-8 at more then 30:1 with plasma ignition and it ran cooler because there is no heat soaking of the cylinder walls from the secondary flame. Also, the engine was on the dyno and it showd 125 horsepower gain and 70 percent better mileage because more of the fuel was being used to drive the pistons. You don't want any flame, only an explosion at the firing of the plasma plug. This is why GEET combined with plasma ignition is king. Exhaust temps should drop by 50 degrees or more. With water injection added you should cool down by 100 degrees or more using plasma and lean mixtures. It goes opposite to combustion engineering which states that you want more fuel to cool the engine down, but then, you have an engine dumping most of it's fuel in partially unburnt state out the tailpipe, we don't want that  :D

Look at this video and notice how much flame and how much is going out the tailpipe on exhaust. Flame is happening still even when the exhaust valve is OPEN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz31eCym2iQ
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ezbruce on September 12, 2008, 04:31:13 PM
Good morning CREW
In regards to the welder Schematic the high voltage is supplied via a cap through a iron core transformer.( I think ) which feeds to another air core transformer which is aided by another booster cap.( I apologize if I 'm not using the proper terms to you electronics guys) This circuit seems to be much SIMPLER  fewer parts to fail ,no diodes needed no FET's no SCR just two transformers And this method works and has worked for a gazillion years. Another thought do we really need to reinvent the wheel? We could build one for each plug wire ( IE ).4 cyl.ICE.4 plugs .4spark wires 4 gizmo's.Please take the time to critique this. I know you all are busy, but could this be this simple and we just overlooked it!!! anthow the best to all

thanks EZ
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 12, 2008, 05:17:57 PM
@GotoLuc

I paid 12 a piece for the 1200V @ 25A ones in Salt lake City, UT. Not sure why they would be that much more expensive there unless these were NOS (new old stock).

That's just the way it is in Canada with certain items!... we just get screwed :(.

Thank God for eBay :D I got these to start with MCR265-10 55A 800V SCR Rev Blocking Thyristor  I hope they are okay ??? I was able to get 2 of them for $9.19 plus only $3.50 to ship from Florida to Canada!...can't beat that price.

Here is the link if anyone else is interested: http://cgi.ebay.com/MCR265-10-MCR265-55A-800V-SCR-Rev-Blocking-Thyristor-2_W0QQitemZ380063516384QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item380063516384&_trkparms=39%3A1

But unfortunately now my testing is put off till I receive these :(  I feel like this is taking forever ::)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 13, 2008, 01:56:30 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: btester1 on September 13, 2008, 05:29:06 AM
Hope this helps.
http://www.blacklightpower.com/presentations/TechnicalPresentation091208.pdf

8,600 Times Less Power Required to Achieve the Same Light Emission with Strontium-Argon Catalyst Present Compared to Control

In the pdf, you can see a view of the plasma chamber with the H2 present with this catalyst.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 13, 2008, 04:45:42 PM
A working plasma ignition setup in a Volkswagon van  :)  Using your low current circuit Luc!! Plasma generation, under compression, using 1/2 amp!!!! Nice.  ;D

circuit
http://skyhero.com/Cozzco%20Plasma%20Arc%20Circuit.pdf (http://skyhero.com/Cozzco%20Plasma%20Arc%20Circuit.pdf)

video
NexusPlasma01.wmv (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1149735778386216742&hl=en)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on September 13, 2008, 05:51:26 PM
@Groundloop:
Nice schematic and board design!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 13, 2008, 08:06:11 PM
@xbox hacker,

Thanks. :-)  I will start soldering the boards next week.
I have started to convert my motor in the mean time.
The water pump is off now and next step is to add a generator.
Need to modify the motor front to keep the bearing in place.
I think some aluminum will do fine here. See attached image.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 13, 2008, 10:08:55 PM
@goldenequity,

I have made a cleaned up drawing of the circuit. I did not get the number of diodes used.
Also, in the car he used another string of diodes. Where to put them?
Can anybody that are better in understanding English than me take a look at the video and update
the drawing with the correct number of diodes and also where the second string
of diodes is attached?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 14, 2008, 02:09:12 AM
A working plasma ignition setup in a Volkswagon van  :)  Using your low current circuit Luc!! Plasma generation, under compression, using 1/2 amp!!!! Nice.  ;D

circuit
http://skyhero.com/Cozzco%20Plasma%20Arc%20Circuit.pdf (http://skyhero.com/Cozzco%20Plasma%20Arc%20Circuit.pdf)

video
NexusPlasma01.wmv (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1149735778386216742&hl=en)

Hi goldenequity and everyone,

this is great news once again... this demonstrates the power of sharing ... the more we do the more we receive (growth).

I had a feeling we could piggy back on the existing spark switching system I guess that's why I was in no rush to by SCR's and was trying to even use my relay on the test engine. I was really hoping someone was going to solve it soon.

We are not out of the woods yet. We must work together to create a complete circuit which will include a pulsed coil instead of an inefficient inverter. This video is my attempt to show a more efficient circuit than using an inverter and if I can do it it aint that difficult. http://www.youtube.com/my_videos

I have had a vision for a while of a single box most anyone could installed in a vehicle to create the plasma spark. If the vehicle is a 6 cylinder the box would have 6 holes on its side fitted with male tip plug connector so you unplug your existing ignition cable from the spark plug and plug it in the box which would also have the same amount of wire lead coming out to connect back to the plug. This box would also have a circuitry that would give one the ability to retard the timing just by turning a pot to which could also be mounted inside the cars on the dash board.

I hope this is not too high of a goal to reach. Seeing all the talent that is coming together I am faithful we will achieve this. We can create a complete kits, circuit board, coil, components and all parts needed. That way anyone around the world could buy and build it or have someone build it for them and install. This would create work and income in every part of the World. This way everyone can make some income with it, since God knows there is allot of combustion engines out there.

Thank you all for your excellent research and development so far

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 14, 2008, 02:31:47 AM
@goldenequity,

I have made a cleaned up drawing of the circuit. I did not get the number of diodes used.
Also, in the car he used another string of diodes. Where to put them?
Can anybody that are better in understanding English than me take a look at the video and update
the drawing with the correct number of diodes and also where the second string
of diodes is attached?

Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,

thank you for this most excellent way to demonstrate a circuit wiring diagram. I like this style since so many will be able to understand it since many have good visual skills but no electronic skill. I know you are asking for help to complete the circuit. The help will come.

If it is at all possible from now on, can you please use this circuit illustration program to do all your circuits to help those with no electronic knowledge. It is important for the information to be easy to understand so many can share and replicate.

Thank you once again for your great service to the World.

BTW he said he used 30 diodes but also said it could be much less, also the other diode sets are used to prevent the other plugs to fire when the dedicated plug fires.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on September 14, 2008, 04:05:10 AM
@goldenequity,

I have made a cleaned up drawing of the circuit. I did not get the number of diodes used.
Also, in the car he used another string of diodes. Where to put them?
Can anybody that are better in understanding English than me take a look at the video and update
the drawing with the correct number of diodes and also where the second string
of diodes is attached?

Groundloop.


Thanks Groundloop, for such a good picture. This will help me to better my understanding of what we are trying to accomplish. As Luc said this will be a big plus to guys like me that have only a high school education in electronics. Thanks again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 14, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
@ Groundloop

I took the liberty of putting out the call to the energetic forum for an enhancement of your
diagram.  This came back quickly from lapperl (his FIRST forum post btw!)
Quote
@Groundloop and everyone,

I am new to this forum but an avid watcher and would like to commend everyone on their great efforts.

I have edited Ground loops schematic with my representation of what Bill was saying in the video and the schematic he posted.

He stated that he has two banks of 60 1N5408 diodes in series, each at 3 amps 48kva. In parallel, he gets 6 amps. He stated that he feels he does not need two banks and he over engineered the circuit.

He calls the line coming out of the diode bank a "dipole wire". He runs 4 dipole wires to 4 banks of 7 diodes which he calls his "cross talk preventer". From each of these cross talk diode banks, he runs a wire to the top of each spark plug.

Like I stated previously, this is the way that I understand his circuit from watching his video several times and reviewing his schematic. If anyone feels that this is incorrect, please let me know. I am by no means an expert in this field and am open to advice and or criticism.

I am planning on replicating this circuit and will post my findings here.

I also took the liberty of emailing the author of the video and .pdf circuit with the below diagram for confirmation or correction.
I will keep you posted if/when I hear back.  :)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 14, 2008, 07:53:07 AM
I  know little about car electronics so this Nexus circuit makes me confuss. What do coil switch and switch capacitor do? In my car there are two wires come to ignition coil, then center wire comes to distributor. How can I wire Nexus circuit to my car?
Another problem is inverter. My country uses 220 VAC electricity so I can't find 110 VAC interter. How to adapt this circuit to use with 220 VAC inverter?
Maybe some experts help me solve these problems?

Cheer to all.

Ngoc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 14, 2008, 09:38:35 AM
@gotoluc,

>If it is at all possible from now on, can you please use this circuit illustration program to do all your circuits
>to help those with no electronic knowledge. It is important for the information to be easy to understand so
>many can share and replicate.

For simple circuit like this it is no problem to create a visual circuit diagram. But for more complex circuits I use
the Eagle electronic CAD program. The advantage of using the CAD program is that you also can design PCBs
and you get the factory files for production of PCBs.

>I have had a vision for a while of a single box most anyone could installed in a vehicle to create the plasma spark.

I think it will no problem designing such a unit. I will try out the circuits I already has designed and if success then I
will see if I can design a generic unit of the sort you want.

@michaelpaul,

Yes, it is important that everybody can replicate this circuit.

@goldenequity,

I think you got most of the diodes the wrong way around. If the first diode is negative out then all the other must be the same way?
In the pdf document all the diodes goes in series with the negative terminal pointing at the high voltage coil. I think we need some
input from the inventor here?

@bxngoc,

The ignition switch (can be a electronic one) is controlled from the motor. This switch closes when the motor needs a spark on a plug.
This happens because the ignition coil has plus voltage on one side and when the switch puts the coil to ground then we get a pulse
out of the high voltage ignition coil. The ignition coil itself is a transformer with two coils of enameled copper wire inside. Both coil is wound
onto a laminated iron core. Most ignition coils is filled with oil to keep them cool. One coil has few turns and the other many turns.
So the ignition coil transform the low 12 volt to a high (many kilo volt) voltage to the plug. The capacitor on the coil switch is standard
on all cars that uses this system. The capacitor will suppress noise from the switching and will also greatly extend the life of the
ignition switch.

I think it is no problem at all to use a small (100 - 300 Watt) inverter for 230 volt AC. If you take the transformer and capacitor out of a
micro oven wired for 230 volt then the parts will survive. The capacitor will then be half in value but double in volt rating. The transformer
primary (from the micro oven) will also be made to tolerate 230 volt AV. With double the AC voltage and half ( approx 6uF) the capacitor
value then you will get the same spark. If your coil has just two wires, the low voltage connection and the high voltage plug wire at the top
then both the coils is grounded through the coil metal. Then the low voltage wire is pulsed with 12 volt high and low from a electronic
unit in your car. This is not a problem. You can leave it as it is. You will only need to add the inverter and connect the diode string
to the top of you spark plugs. You will probably need one diode string to each plug to avoid "cross connection" between the plugs.
I have made a circuit drawing (attached) that explain this.

A note, what circuit to use depends on if the high voltage pulse out of the coil is negative or positive seen from the motor ground.
Also, we must check with the inventor on how many diode to use in each serial diode string.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 14, 2008, 09:51:01 AM
Below is a email to Bill and his response.He said he will work on a better presentation when gets back from vacation in a couple of weeks.I hope this will help.


On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 9:37 PM,  I  wrote:
> If you would please help with your nexus plasma circuit.
>
> First----- inverter is physically and electrically isolated from the vehicle
> ground.So does that mean you need a different power supply other than your
> cars battery?A extra battery to run the inverter??
>
> Download said-- 120vac from the inverter is directed through a mot primary
> to a half wave rectifier,but schematic shows that the hot side of inverter
> is to mot and the neutral side of inverter is to half wave rectifier and
> then to diodes?Is it also possible to get the type(schematic) of your half
> wave rectifier.I have found two types on the net,but would like to use
> yours.
>
> I'm like a lot of people.I'm a experience auto technician. I understand Ac
> and Dc and respect both when it comes to safety. But when it come to
> building electronics I'm a novice and need things explained in laymen
> turns.It just like the 60 diodes I have search the net and have found
> different views on how to connect them in series and in parallel with some
> using resistors?
>
> Does your download go into detail (pictures and so on for the laymen) I
> would be more than happy to purchase your download if it does.
>


Hi Bob,

I'm not selling anything differently than what you find in the PDF. I
wouldn't charge for information. The only thing you get plasma related
with the purchase is a download of the same video you can watch
online.

The inverter is physically and electrically isolated from vehicle
ground. I'm using the same battery that is used to run the engine. I
just didn't hook the chassis to ground and I didn't hook up the ground
little green ground wire on the inverter. The plus and minus are
hooked up, of course.

I don't get real technical at all, and you're right, the negative side
of the input has the rectifier on it. It's just five of the same
diodes all wired in series, way more than you will need. I think one
would do fine, but it wouldn't hurt to use two or three.

Now, it's not a rectifier unless it's in series with the input, and
that's why I said it positive goes to the rectifier, but it goes there
on the ground side. Just like in the schematic.

A rectifier is just a diode or group of diodes. One is shown on the
schematic just like it is just where it goes. More would be in
parallel with the one you see, and the only reason to add more would
be to carry more current, but we ain't carrying any current to speak
of so you don't need anything special.

Just wire everything like it shows in the schematic. I'll work on
making a better presentation when I get back from vacation in a few
weeks.

If you would, post this email to as many forums as you may belong to
or find so that I don't have to answer the same questions a million
and one times.

Have fun and Be Safe !!!!!

Bill
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nyloncylon on September 14, 2008, 11:35:29 AM
A note, what circuit to use depends on if the high voltage pulse out of the coil is negative or positive seen from the motor ground.
Also, we must check with the inventor on how many diode to use in each serial diode string.

Groundloop.

From the video it seems to be 8 diodes in each string in the backfeed protector.

NC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 14, 2008, 12:09:40 PM
Thanks  Bob for your sharing info and communication with Bill.
Thanks Groundloop for clear explaination about ignition switch and solution for 230 VAC use. I always get your prompt help within one hour after my post. BTW my ignition coil has three poles: positive pole, negative pole and output pole: +12 VDC come to positive pole through a ceramic resistor that attached to ignition coil, a black-white wire from somewhere come to negative pole. there is a pair of red and black wires connect positive and negative to unit inside distributor. finally a thick wire connect output pole of ignition coil with distributor.
How to determine high voltage pulse out of the coil is negative or positive seen from the motor ground?
My car is Mitsubishi Lancer Ex, 1800cc,4 cylinders.It made by Japan in 1986. I bought this antique to make experiment. I ride motorbike everyday.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 14, 2008, 12:21:00 PM
@bwb,

Thank you for clearing that up with the inventor.

@nyloncylon,

You are right. I have updated the drawings. (Attached.)

@bxngoc,

You can use the ignition wiring on your car just as it is now. You just has to add wires (high voltage insulated) to each
spark plug and to the diode strings.

>How to determine high voltage pulse out of the coil is negative or positive seen from the motor ground?

Working on that, stay tuned.............

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 14, 2008, 01:52:40 PM
@bxngoc,

>How to determine high voltage pulse out of the coil is negative or positive seen from the motor ground?

I think the attached circuit will work. If it do not then you will only waste two inexpensive leds. :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 14, 2008, 02:51:01 PM
@ groundloop

Yup... you were right.... diodes going the wrong way in the diagram revision from lapperl.
Here is the email back from Bill (the video/.pdf guy)
Quote
The diodes in the 60 string are going in the wrong direction.
The ground for the capacitor should be to the battery, NOT to the 120 hot!
Cripes :)
When you geter done, could I have a copy for the PDF?
Much better than mine
Regards,
Bill

Nice Job on all this groundloop..... you're a real asset to the forum ... thanks for ALL!! ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on September 14, 2008, 03:15:28 PM
Goldenequity,

Thanks for checking with the inventor, clearly there are some issues with the schematic that he posted in his pdf.  He did state in his video that it is wired backwards but works.  Was he referring to his "Cross Talk Preventer"?  He did not say that they were wrong on the diagram you sent him. He only said the diodes in the 60 string. ???

So if I am reading his email correctly, then the capacitor should go directly to the battery negative terminal and not the 120v leg out of the MOT going to the engine block?

LapperLL

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 14, 2008, 03:26:42 PM
@ lapperl and groundloop

Jeezz....good to have you BOTH on the SAME Forum... this will help alot. ;D

A picture's worth a thousand words..... not sure lapperl..
but
if you or groundloop want to correct the diagram according to your current understanding...
I will keep sending the revisions to Bill until we get confirmation from him....
might as well get this right.... and let's just use this forum... THANKS!
randy  :)

Update:
lapperll.... check your pm... i gave you Inventor/ Bill's email address to chat with and forward revisions to...
that will work best.... keep us all posted.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on September 14, 2008, 03:52:40 PM
@Goldenequity,
  I made a revision to Groundloop's most recent diagram.  I left the diodes of the "Cross Talk Block" in the same orientation as the 60 string, so if you don't mind, ask the inventor if this orientation is correct and what he was referring to in the video when he stated that it was wired backwards.

@Groundloop,
  I hope you don't mind me utilizing your graphics.  It's much easier then starting form scratch.


Thanks,
LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 14, 2008, 04:03:47 PM
Update:
lapperll.... check your pm... i gave you Inventor/ Bill's email address to chat with and forward revisions to...
that will work best.... keep us all posted.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 14, 2008, 04:49:46 PM
You  make me watch the thread all day. I've checked my car and seen negative pole of battery is connected to car body and a thick black wire. I suppose engine ground is contacted with car body. So what is different between capacitor pin is connected to engine ground or is connected to negative pole of battery?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 14, 2008, 06:28:59 PM
Bill needs more energy to run on water. Also, he needs to cut the ground electrode off the plug, this will give him more energy for the same input.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 14, 2008, 07:31:03 PM
All,

The negative terminal of the car battery is going to the engine block. This is the ground terminal.
If the inverter output is going through a "MOT" and then to minus then my circuits are correct.
No problem for me that "Inventor/ Bill" is using my drawings. All I post on this forum is free for all to use.

Does anybody on this forum have a high voltage o-scope probe? Then we can find out the real spark plug
voltage and design the diode strings according to the voltage. I think the voltage is approx. 20 Kilo Volt.
Then we will only need approx 20 - 8 = 12 in the voltage block string. Maybe some more to be sure.

In the cross talk diode strings will will need just enough diodes to block the cross firing since the
voltage and current always will take the low resistance path through the spark plugs.

I think the easiest way to make the diode strings is by soldering the diodes together and use
"electrician" tape over the solder joints and then an other layer (or several) of heat shrink tubing.
Just a thought.......

I think that using this Plasma ignition enhancer on a petrol (gas) run car will be beneficial for all.
Due to the higher spark energy there will be no misfires in the motor and also maybe gas savings
because of a better internal combustion. Any thoughts on this?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 14, 2008, 09:48:11 PM
My concerns on this is if any additional heat is created and how much from the plasma spark in the cylinder. A hot cylinder could equal burnt exhaust valves and also if the spark plugs heat range will be sufficient to disperse the extra heat if any? I'm very interested in seeing pictures of  Bill's spark plugs when he gets back. I do believe that you should run a water injection system with this and be sure to check your plugs at least within the first 100 miles and regularly after that for a while... The condition of the plugs should show you if they are running hot,cold or normal. If hot a colder heat range plug! Remember this is only a my opinion.I plan on putting one of these on my old 79 Dodge 4X4 318 V8 and see what happens when using it with my hydrogen cell and water injection system. ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on September 14, 2008, 10:35:26 PM
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_challenge.shtml
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 14, 2008, 10:45:49 PM
bwb,

If you are running a 300 Watt inverter and is using, let us say half of that energy, then the total added
energy to you motor will be 150 Watt. This is way too small to make any difference in your motor.

Another issue is the improved combustion with a plasma spark. My best guess is that this will not
impact the motor in a negative way. Only one way to find out, try it on your car. :-)

Then we have the spark plugs. Does anybody know if the Firestorm plugs in on the market?

Groundloop.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on September 14, 2008, 11:15:58 PM

@GroundLoop

I understand, that is why I am using a system similar to Luc's. It is a variac into a microwave transformer, then FWB. I have been able to go up to 2KV @ 1uF, but I use a spark gap to discharge the cap at these voltages. I can go all the way up to 1000V @ 50uF (25 joules) by using the SCR. My SCR setup makes the SCR handle the entire discharge current of the cap (capacitor is parallel to the primary of the coil and diode string and SCR is series on the Anode side of the circuit). With an HV relay I can go all the way up to 400 joules discharge but the rep rate is slow (although only one pulse almost destroys the plug). Every time the coil fires it jumps about 2mm off the table from the inductive kick, and the diode strings I use barely handle the output (I use 25-1N5408's in series, and two strings of them in parallel for more current).

I used your circuit with the cap in series with the primary of the coil but I could not get enough energy across the plug to explode water. I beefed up all the components to handle higher voltages and currents and it exploded water then but I still did not get enough energy to create high pressures in a closed chamber. 5 or more Joules is needed and even then the pressure created from exploding the water is not more than 5-10 psi per pulse and we need more like 75 psi per pulse to drive a small engine I believe.

@GotoLuc

I paid 12 a piece for the 1200V @ 25A ones in Salt lake City, UT. Not sure why they would be that much more expensive there unless these were NOS (new old stock).

UncleFester,

Just wanted to bring something to your attention  about Samual Leaches system if I remember correctly his system used a total of 43 joules I believe and at frequencies in the UV & IR band.....  just thought you may interested in that .I think he explains the diffrent level of joules and the effect it had in his system.
 sorry for the off topic luc,  wont hurt my feelings to delete it after UncleFester reads it.  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: UncleFester on September 15, 2008, 03:11:51 AM
bwb,

If you are running a 300 Watt inverter and is using, let us say half of that energy, then the total added
energy to you motor will be 150 Watt. This is way too small to make any difference in your motor.

Another issue is the improved combustion with a plasma spark. My best guess is that this will not
impact the motor in a negative way. Only one way to find out, try it on your car. :-)

Then we have the spark plugs. Does anybody know if the Firestorm plugs in on the market?

Groundloop.



FireStorm plugs will be in production soon. All U.S. plug manufacturers would not make them for us because they said they last too long and would make their own plugs obsolete. We are going to have them made outside the country.

The lean conditions normally make an engine run hotter, but only if you are using a poor atomization system such as a carburetor or injector. Once you hit 30:1 and are running a plasma ignition the engine cools down substantially and there is no way for the engine to have valve issues. Once even a small amount of water is introduced the engine cools down even further and horsepower increases by 25 percent or more. At this point there would be no possibility of the engine running too hot.

Increased electrical input into the ignition system DOES NOT increase engine temperatures, it actually cools down because more of the fuel is being burnt instead of heat soaking the cylinder walls with a secondary flame.

@Kewlhead

Interesting find. I'm not sure if I could set up that sort of system but may have time once testing is finished on the plugs and new ignition systems on the V-8's we are running.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 15, 2008, 05:47:41 AM
Hi everyone,

Just uploaded a video showing the water spark plug producing the effect at lower voltage levels.

The video is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8jNVq4pKo

Also I'd like to share my progress on my generator test rig. 

Peace,

Greg

The pic shows the sensor plate that will hold some reed switches.  The plate has slotted holes for changing timing.  The larger gear has three holes for mounting the rotor that will hold a magnet that will actuate the reed switches. Hopefully by this time next week I will be running this thing.
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/timing1.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 15, 2008, 06:37:26 AM
gmeast,

What kind of HV diodes are you using? Partnumber?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on September 15, 2008, 06:41:42 AM
Hi everyone,

Just uploaded a video showing the water spark plug producing the effect at lower voltage levels.

The video is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8jNVq4pKo

Also I'd like to share my progress on my generator test rig. 

Peace,

Greg

The pic shows the sensor plate that will hold some reed switches.  The plate has slotted holes for changing timing.  The larger gear has three holes for mounting the rotor that will hold a magnet that will actuate the reed switches. Hopefully by this time next week I will be running this thing.
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/timing1.jpg)


that looks great! :).best ive seen so far i think.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 15, 2008, 06:58:28 AM
gmeast,

What kind of HV diodes are you using? Partnumber?

Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,

The diodes I'm using are NTE517 and I get them from Mouser.  Their part # is 526-NTE517.  They are 15kv and a little over 0.5 AMP.

Best to you.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 15, 2008, 07:08:02 AM
@gmeast,

Thanks. :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 15, 2008, 07:18:02 AM
that looks great! :).best ive seen so far i think.

Hi b0rg13,

Thank you very much. Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 15, 2008, 10:01:10 PM
Can't wait to try Bill's circuit on my generator as soon as everyone agrees on the circuit architecture.  Thanks Gotoluc for bringing the water spark plug to our collective attention.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on September 15, 2008, 11:50:10 PM
Has the circuit designer elaborated on his water injection system? He says his van ran (badly but still ran) on water alone.

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 16, 2008, 02:03:14 AM
Has the circuit designer elaborated on his water injection system? He says his van ran (badly but still ran) on water alone.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I downloaded the HQ version of his video and reviewed it.  As of the date of the video he had installed 2 water misters in the intake hose AFTER the mass airflow sensor.  He only had one hooked up.  Each mister is rated at 1/2 gallon per hour at 30 psi.

That's what the video said.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 16, 2008, 09:17:46 AM
All,

I have studied the car ignition coil system a bit and has come to the following conclusion:

The coil consist of one coil with a tapping for the +12 volt (few turns) near the ground.
The coil ratio at the +12 volt is approx. 1:100.  At first we charge the coil with +12 volt.
At this moment the high part of the coil puts out approx. 1000 volt positive pulse. This
pulse is too low to give a spark. Then we open the switch (mechanical or electronic) and
the coil goes high Q and flips around to give a high negative pulse around 45 kilo volt
to the spark plugs.

I have designed a plasma circuit that can tolerate up to 48 kilo volt based on this knowledge.
In my circuit I use the BY255 diode (rated 1300 volt 3 ampere). I use high voltage capacitors
to make sure that the capacitors can survive the first high positive coil pulse. The BY255 is
inexpensive so I just made four strings that both can block the high voltage pulse and take
care of the insulation between the spark plugs. I replaced the MOT with a known coil
of 10mH.

The attached drawing is the circuit I'm going to try on my car.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on September 16, 2008, 12:32:17 PM
I'm really trying to understand the flow of current and what is happening at every given time but it gets confusing. Each time I see a different schematic, I can't even begin to understand the electronic schematics using transistors and what not. This might be too much asked but could someone explain it by starting with a basic ignition schematic modifying it in the water sparkplug schematic using clear explanations. I promise if I understand it I will help other people understand it, but currently I just can't help  ;).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 16, 2008, 02:09:31 PM
@broli,

The plasma ignition works like this:

The existing ignition system on your car provide a high voltage spark to the plugs.

The plasma add on uses diodes to insulate the spark plug from each other and to insulate the
inverter from the high voltage. The coil will when fired provide a very high voltage to the plugs.
When that voltage has fallen to a low value then the diodes will open and discharge the capacitor
into the plug. This will add energy to the plug and the plasma spark is created.

See attached drawing on how to connect everything to your motor. You do not have to make
any changes to your existing ignition system.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on September 16, 2008, 02:42:10 PM
  Thanks everyone for all the input on this
 This is an easy modification anyone,  even I can do
  Thank you groundloop for the easy to read diagrams and the high voltage + --  tester
  Just one question .   Do we still need a bridge rectifier?

  I have about 4 engines I want to set this up on. My wifes VW bus is first so I got to get it right. "Hehe"

  Thanks again for everyones good work, I truly think this my change the world.


           Gourdman
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: e2bwild on September 16, 2008, 03:07:55 PM
Does Bill mention anything about resistance in the plugs ???
so far we have been going after no-resistance plugs to get the plasma.



that could be the reason he is only drawing 100mA

Big E
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 16, 2008, 03:47:29 PM
@gourdman,

No. You do not need a diode bridge. One diode at the inverter is enough.

@e2bwild,

He did not say anything about the spark plug resistors.

Is there spark plugs on the market that do not have any resistors?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 16, 2008, 04:39:03 PM

Is there spark plugs on the market that do not have any resistors?

Groundloop.

Thank you Groundloop for your new schematic and all the help to date.

@everyone,

I find it strange that Bill did not mention about the spark plug internal resistor since it is so important. I have not yet seen a plasma spark work if the internal resistor is in the plug!... so I am quite sure you need to remove it. This may cause some problem with some plugs models as I have plugs on my Ford Windstar that the internal resistor is not removable. It is a solid stem!... if I try to unscrew it, it just brakes the stem inside. I'm not sure though if it's the same for all the manufactures of that plug model make them like that?  but I think other plugs could work on the engine if that is the case!... since really, all the plug is suppose to be is a spark gap.

Great work everyone.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 16, 2008, 05:19:13 PM
Anybody tried this on fuel injected engine.? :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 16, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Just google you can find many non-resistor spark plug.
Here is part number of NGK http://www.carsparkplugs.com/images/ngkchart.jpg you can see if there is no "R" in part number means non-resistor spark plug.
Found one on amazon http://www.amazon.com/NGK-BP7ES-Resistor-Spark-Plug/dp/B000C5M2HC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 16, 2008, 05:25:54 PM
Just google you can find many non-resistor spark plug.
Here is chart of part number of NGK http://www.carsparkplugs.com/images/ngkchart.jpg you can see if there is no "R" in part number means non-resistor spark plug.
Found one on amazon http://www.amazon.com/NGK-BP7ES-Resistor-Spark-Plug/dp/B000C5M2HC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nyloncylon on September 16, 2008, 06:18:31 PM
@groundloop

Thanks for your great explanations of your circuit for us "gui" minded newbies:)
Have just ordered the diodes and caps. Are theese ok?:
MULTICOMP  BY255                 DIODE, STANDARD, 3A, 1300V
NICHICON      UCY2G100MPD   CAPACITOR, 10UF, 400V

Any suggestions for where a LSI-100T (transformer?) or similar could be found in some electronic equipment?  Have access to loads of scrapped computers, monitors and other electronics.
Would it be ok to seal all diode strings in some sort of insulated tubes?

NC
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 16, 2008, 06:40:35 PM
@nyloncylon,

If you find an old micro wave oven then you can use that transformer.

Bill stated that he used the primary of that transformer. Since the
primary is rated for 110 VAC in Bill's case and the transformer must
transfer a lot of Watt then I guess that almost any transformer or single
coil with almost the same properties will do the job.

I selected to use a 10mH Iron transformer for audio usage. It is a single coil
for use in the built in speaker filters. But, this is research and I must try it out
before I can say for certain it will perform OK.

I think if you look into some old PC power supply then you will find a input
coil filter with enough size to do the job. Also many transformers of some
size will probably work OK. I think we must research this more.

Your capacitor should at least withstand the first positive pulse from the ignition coil.
This pulse can be approx. 1000 volt. So two of your capacitors in series will do fine.
The result value will then be 5uF and I think this is enough if you run a 230VAC inverter.

I'm really guessing a lot as you can see from my writing. This is because this plasma ignition
is as new to me as it is to you. But I think that if we try this out on our cars then we will
learn a lot and find the perfect values on the parts.

I have ordered the BY255 diodes and other parts and will try it out on my car as soon as the parts arrive.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nyloncylon on September 16, 2008, 07:48:04 PM
I'm really guessing a lot as you can see from my writing. This is because this plasma ignition
is as new to me as it is to you. But I think that if we try this out on our cars then we will
learn a lot and find the perfect values on the parts.

I have ordered the BY255 diodes and other parts and will try it out on my car as soon as the parts arrive.

Groundloop.

At least you are probably guessing with some sort of clues and knowlege ;D
Have lurked on this thread for some weeks and finally someone came up with a configuration i could build!
I live in Europe and use 230v so your schematics fits well for me. Have an old 1971 Volvo 145 im eager to use as a testdummy.
Im not wanting this for water as fuel, but hopes for better milage on gasoline. Live in a cold area so water would also be impractical. Also eager to try this out on a two stroke 600ccm 3 cylindre snowmobile that almost use 1 litre per cylinder per 10km!

NC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 16, 2008, 08:02:22 PM
How to control the timing once the you have the schematic done...

Sparks are controled by the ECU so this is a seperate circuit(unless with 555).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 16, 2008, 08:15:27 PM
@nyloncylon,

WoW, does the old Volvo 145 still roll? :-) I bet you will get a better mileage with a hotter ignition.
Have you found any reseller of sparks plugs without a internal resistor in Europe? If you do
please PM me or post the contact information here.

Today I received the parts and PCBs for my 1,5 HP project. I will start soldering together the inverter
first. There is a lot of work before I can try running this motor. Need a generator (dynamo) and I also
need a injector, pump and regulator for the water injector system. But, even if it takes some time, I
will be there one day. Attached is a image of my motor right now. Been working on a replacement
for the ignition coil. I will need just a pickup coil for triggering and will then build my CDI ignition
for this motor. Lots of work............... :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 16, 2008, 08:17:24 PM
Well Groundloop PM awaits you

Ah when i saw this i wanted to buy a test car 97' Seat Cordoba but when a friend told me its useless without iginition timing i said useless.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: starcruiser on September 16, 2008, 09:16:54 PM
@Groundloop,

There are mod kits for lawn tractors that convert them to electronic ignitions, they come with the pickups required to attach to the crank. Basically a repair kit for tractors with bad magnetos, you could look for that since they come with pickups and magnets...  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 16, 2008, 09:41:15 PM
@starcruiser,

Thanks for the tip. My motor is very small, only 1,5HP. I think it will be easier for
me just to remove the ignition coil and just add a Ferrite based home made coil
casted in epoxy (The epoxy version that can tolerate heat.) I will also need a
new standard coil for my CDI circuit. Thats not a problem. The problem is time
and the work that has to be done. :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 16, 2008, 11:38:53 PM
Greetings all...
I received an email back from lapperll.... Still no word back from Bill yet
I think he's still on vacation.  We wait and see..... not forgotten tho  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nyloncylon on September 16, 2008, 11:47:47 PM
@groundloop

My Volvo only needs a new exhaust pipe. Blew a hole in it some years ago ;D
Non-resistor spark plugs is without a R in NGK model numbers and probably other brands to. For the 145 i need NGK BP5EY, but they are maybe rare to find today? I attached the chart mentioned by bxngoc.

NC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 17, 2008, 12:10:16 AM
Hi all,

I have posted a video demonstrating the CORE water spark plug principles as applied to multiple spark plugs. This is NOT the Nexus circuit. It operates as a CDI system like the original isolated circuit brought to us by Gotoluc and demonstrated by Peter Lindemann and also replicators from all around.

The circuit below is the exact circuit as used in the video. It uses 3 HV diodes in parallel (NTE517) per plug ... visible in the video. The circuit does not need a beefy choke (MOT) primary. It will produce a bright plasma discharge on 12 uf. I'm using 47uf in these tests because I like to blow up water.

The video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kz2REk4XdA

Enjoy. Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distrib.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 17, 2008, 03:46:47 AM
Spark Plugs

I found  non resistant plugs for my truck. at http://www.summitracing.com/ Just do a spark plug search, then use browse by make of vehicle to find if they have your plugs in NR. I posted this once before.So delete it if you want.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 17, 2008, 05:13:05 AM
How to control the timing once the you have the schematic done...

Sparks are controled by the ECU so this is a seperate circuit(unless with 555).

Hi Mr.Tesla,

It may take time to test all the circuits to find what works best and is simplest to build. If you have an ECU vehicle like most of us then if you want to be able to change timing I would recommend you to build Greg's circuit which I think is very stable and the simplest circuit to build at this time.

But do remember we are all testing these.

@Greg, excellent video demo and circuit ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 17, 2008, 05:53:15 AM
Spark Plugs

I found  non resistant plugs for my truck. at http://www.summitracing.com/ Just do a spark plug search, then use browse by make of vehicle to find if they have your plugs in NR. I posted this once before.So delete it if you want.


Hi,

Thanks, I didn't know where to go for those.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nyloncylon on September 17, 2008, 07:17:37 AM
It may take time to test all the circuits to find what works best and is simplest to build. If you have an ECU vehicle like most of us then if you want to be able to change timing I would recommend you to build Greg's circuit which I think is very stable and the simplest circuit to build at this time.

But do remember we are all testing these.

@Greg, excellent video demo and circuit ;)

Luc

Do you consider Gregs circuit simpler to build than the Nexus/Groundloop circuit? Im not very skilled in electronics but Groundloops circuit seems to involve far less types of components, but in number there are many more. Except for the inverter we have one MOT, one type of diode and one cap type. The total number of parts needed are just over 150. To get hold on this few parts and the soldering job i can overcome, but maybe boring. Any thoughts on this topic?

NC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 17, 2008, 08:35:36 AM
Why don't we try NTE517  diodes in Nexus/Groundloop instead of 4 string of  BY255? I  got difficulty in buying both type of diodes in my place so I have to consider carefully.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 17, 2008, 09:26:38 AM
Ok gotoluc thanks a lot for the ECU thingy.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 17, 2008, 10:06:45 AM
Why don't we try NTE517  diodes in Nexus/Groundloop instead of 4 string of  BY255? I  got difficulty in buying both type of diodes in my place so I have to consider carefully.

What country do you live in ?

Regards ,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 17, 2008, 01:36:02 PM
All,

First, using NTE517 in my circuit is not a problem but you will need more than one in series at each plug.
The NTE517 is rated Maximum 15 Kilo Volt and max. 550mA. So to get the required (in my opinion)
voltage protection (45KV) you will need 3 in series. The BY255 is rated 1300 Volt at 3 ampere. To get
approx. 3 ampere with the NTE517 you will need 5 in parallel also. So for each plug you will need 15 high
voltage diodes. The total will be 60 diodes of the NTE517 type. Now compare the cost;

BY255 = (37 * 4) + 1 = 149 diodes = 17 USD (worst case cost)
NTE517 = 60 diodes =  400 USD (worst case cost)

Comparing the two circuits is not possible. The Nexus circuit uses the motor ignition and timing as it is.
You just add parts to get the plasma flame at the sparkplugs. Greg's circuit uses reed relays and must
be timed by using magnets on the motor flywheel. It is a more complex circuit and is not for the beginner
if you ask me.

Everything depends on what you want to do. If you want a simple and low cost plasma enhancer then
use the Nexus. If you want to do a lot of research into water injection then build Greg's circuit.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 17, 2008, 01:39:02 PM
Quote
Comparing the two circuits is not possible. The Nexus circuit uses the motor ignition and timing as it is.
You just add parts to get the plasma flame at the sparkplugs. Greg's circuit uses reed relays and must
be timed by using magnets on the motor flywheel. It is a more complex circuit and is not for the beginner
if you ask me.

Nexus is the suitable circuit to go.Let the engine control the timing messing with it and changing stuff is not easy....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 17, 2008, 01:40:16 PM
@happyvalley808
I live in Vietnam. We can only buy some common electronics components from China at local shops. Some of them work unrealiably. Even they don't have datasheet.
Sorry some guys come from China. That's just my feel.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 17, 2008, 02:52:45 PM
@bxngoc,

Data sheets for components can be downloaded for free from the Internet.

If you create a PayPal account then you can buy all the parts you want from the net.

If you have access to a garbage dump for electronic then you can harvest diodes
and other stuff from discharged electronic equipments for free.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bxngoc on September 17, 2008, 03:18:09 PM
@Groundloop
Thank you for your advice. I always harvest components from old computers. I make online order too but shipping cost from 50 to 100 USD is expensive for me if just buy some diodes.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on September 17, 2008, 03:25:54 PM
UPDATED NEXUS PLASMA ARC CIRCUIT

@Everyone,

  I have updated Bill's Nexus circuit and received his blessing. 

He stated that he is using a 2,500 watt Cobra inverter but is only drawing 100ma so a large inverter is not necessary. 

He also stated that the capacitor that he is using is from a very old and heavy microwave oven and he has not tried a more modern cap to see if it would work, but he will when he returns from vacation.

I am also planning on testing a modern MOC (.95uf 2000vac) and will publish my findings.  I'm just waiting on my diodes from Mouser.

Good Luck to everyone and thanks to Goldenequity and Groundloop for their assistance in this matter  ;D

Lapperll
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2008, 03:34:04 PM

 To get approx. 3 ampere with the NTE517 you will need 5 in parallel also. So for each plug you will need 15 high
voltage diodes. The total will be 60 diodes of the NTE517 type. Now compare the cost;

BY255 = (37 * 4) + 1 = 149 diodes = 17 USD (worst case cost)
NTE517 = 60 diodes =  400 USD (worst case cost)




From  what I understand    it  doesn't  work very well  to  use diodes in parallel .
The voltage drops  across them are  slightly different ,  most of the  current  will  go through  the  diode  with the  lowest voltage drop . 

Unless  you  match  the  diodes VERY carefully  they will end up burning out  one at a time  until  they are all  gone


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 17, 2008, 04:33:50 PM
@ lapperll > Well what to do with those ''existing spark connections'' on the diagram'' from what i see you get dual voltage on sparks correct me if am wrong.What is the purpase of those ''existing spark connections'' .
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on September 17, 2008, 04:50:57 PM
@Mr.Tesla,
  You do not do anything with the existing spark connections.  Groundloop explained it best in reply #1606.  Please review his reply for a very well written explanation. 

I am by no means an expert in this arena, but am willing to help in any way that I can.

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 17, 2008, 04:55:17 PM
Thanks ill look in to it
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2008, 04:57:58 PM
@ lapperll > Well what to do with those ''existing spark connections'' on the diagram'' from what i see you get dual voltage on sparks correct me if am wrong.What is the purpase of those ''existing spark connections'' .

Mr Tesla

This  thread  is  about  getting the most bang for the buck  from those 2  connections .
The  existing   ignition system  is high enough voltage to  form  an arc . But not much power.
The  low   voltage from the inverter  has  enough power  to do some work .

When the  high   voltage makes  an arc  within that arc  plasma is formed.
This  plasma  is  a relativly good  conductor  so  the  low  voltage  can flow through the arc.

We  are in effect making a switch  using  the  existing   ignition  system   to  turn the  power on and off .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 17, 2008, 06:14:58 PM
All,

First, using NTE517 in my circuit is not a problem but you will need more than one in series at each plug.
The NTE517 is rated Maximum 15 Kilo Volt and max. 550mA. So to get the required (in my opinion)
voltage protection (45KV) you will need 3 in series. The BY255 is rated 1300 Volt at 3 ampere. To get
approx. 3 ampere with the NTE517 you will need 5 in parallel also. So for each plug you will need 15 high
voltage diodes. The total will be 60 diodes of the NTE517 type. Now compare the cost;

BY255 = (37 * 4) + 1 = 149 diodes = 17 USD (worst case cost)
NTE517 = 60 diodes =  400 USD (worst case cost)

Comparing the two circuits is not possible. The Nexus circuit uses the motor ignition and timing as it is.
You just add parts to get the plasma flame at the sparkplugs. Greg's circuit uses reed relays and must
be timed by using magnets on the motor flywheel. It is a more complex circuit and is not for the beginner
if you ask me.

Everything depends on what you want to do. If you want a simple and low cost plasma enhancer then
use the Nexus. If you want to do a lot of research into water injection then build Greg's circuit.

Groundloop.

Hi all,

I personally love the simplicity of the Nexus.  The circuit I tested and submitted as a contribution is more a study in principle and some on the practical.  I wanted to carry the CORE circuitry (Gotoluc's initial circuit) to a point of reasonable completion.  It is harder to apply my system because it changes the nature of the entire system to a CDI.  The Nexus is a 'bolt-on' ... very slick.

Any help I can give, just yell.  I'll be putting my system on my '64 VW Bug for testing.  I will post results as well as my generator stuff too.  The biggest hurtle in all of this has been the 'distributor'.  Now, at least, that has been solved in two ways.

Best to all.  Peace,

Greg



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 17, 2008, 06:27:34 PM
Mr Tesla

This  thread  is  about  getting the most bang for the buck  from those 2  connections .
The  existing   ignition system  is high enough voltage to  form  an arc . But not much power.
The  low   voltage from the inverter  has  enough power  to do some work .

When the  high   voltage makes  an arc  within that arc  plasma is formed.
This  plasma  is  a relativly good  conductor  so  the  low  voltage  can flow through the arc.

We  are in effect making a switch  using  the  existing   ignition  system   to  turn the  power on and off .

gary

Thanks Gary for the perfectly clean and simple explanation of what the circuit does.

@everyone, we should do everything in our power and knowledge to keep the circuit or new solutions the simplest as possible.

With this said, can we come to an agreement as to which circuit we feel is the simplest and cost effective to build at this time.

We have Groundloops and now lapperll circuit to consider. Can we all look this over and agree which one we will be testing in our cars.

We will deal with timing solutions later.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on September 17, 2008, 06:29:07 PM
Hi all,

I have posted a video demonstrating the CORE water spark plug principles as applied to multiple spark plugs. This is NOT the Nexus circuit. It operates as a CDI system like the original isolated circuit brought to us by Gotoluc and demonstrated by Peter Lindemann and also replicators from all around.

The circuit below is the exact circuit as used in the video. It uses 3 HV diodes in parallel (NTE517) per plug ... visible in the video. The circuit does not need a beefy choke (MOT) primary. It will produce a bright plasma discharge on 12 uf. I'm using 47uf in these tests because I like to blow up water.

The video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kz2REk4XdA

Enjoy. Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distrib.jpg)



Very good vid Greg. I am ordering parts to construct your circuit. I see you have an isolation transformer (1:1) and I know that there are many to choose from. Is there one in particular that you used or will any 1:1 transformer will do?
Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 17, 2008, 06:39:27 PM
Hi all,

I personally love the simplicity of the Nexus.  The circuit I tested and submitted as a contribution is more a study in principle and some on the practical.  I wanted to carry the CORE circuitry (Gotoluc's initial circuit) to a point of reasonable completion.  It is harder to apply my system because it changes the nature of the entire system to a CDI.  The Nexus is a 'bolt-on' ... very slick.

Any help I can give, just yell.  I'll be putting my system on my '64 VW Bug for testing.  I will post results as well as my generator stuff too.  The biggest hurtle in all of this has been the 'distributor'.  Now, at least, that has been solved in two ways.

Best to all.  Peace,

Greg


P.S.  Inexpensive diode strings work in  the CDI Plasma circuit I posted just as well as those hideously expensive HV diodes.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 17, 2008, 07:55:37 PM
@gotoluc > totaly agree with you i am confused about all these cirucits.What i think you guys should do make an agrement wich is the SIMPLE and EASY to build and EFFECTIVE.

lots of new folks want to try it incl. my friends but they are confused.For me the NEXUS looks good.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 17, 2008, 08:45:33 PM
All,

Attached is my final proposal for a 230VAC Inverter setup. I have based my circuit on the Nexus drawing.
I always like to "beef up" my circuits so that the electronic will last long and not break down. For that
reason has I designed the circuit to take up to 48 kilo Volt coil pulses. The BY255 will guarantie a constant
current of max. 3 ampere from the inverter to each plug. I have also used the LT10A07 ten ampere diode at
the Inverter output for the same reason. My two series capacitor will ensure me that the capacitors can handle
the first 1000 volt pulse from the ignition coil before the coil flips to high voltage. The Inverter is made of
plastic and can be mounted direct on the car chassis. The single transformer coil is a standard coil used
in speaker audio filters and is available to most people. This coil also has a know value and can take up
to 300 Watt RMS (if ever needed). I have no copy right on my circuit version.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 17, 2008, 08:56:32 PM


Very good vid Greg. I am ordering parts to construct your circuit. I see you have an isolation transformer (1:1) and I know that there are many to choose from. Is there one in particular that you used or will any 1:1 transformer will do?
Thanks, Mike

Hi michaelpaul,

Well, there's a rule of thumb.  If your inverter is a purely inductive inverter then the isolation transformer should be 1/2 the power rating.  For example if you have a 400 watt inverter then your transformer should not be any bigger than 200 VA (as the only load)  With these newer solid state synthesizers I'm lost.  I have a 400 watt inverter pushing a 250 VA transformer and it has no trouble starting ... which is usually where the problems are. Go 1/2 inverter rating to be safe.

On another note,  you can experiment with less expensive diode strings like the other systems and forgo the expensive HV diodes.  If you use too big of a cap value you'll pop the HVs for sure.  47uf is as high as I'll go with them.  The thing I like about a CDI system is that with the cap size, voltage and the inrush snubber resistor (12 ohm) you have good control over the circuit's characteristics.

There's no doubt that the Nexus circuit is the easiest to implement but you might learn more with the CDI circuit.  Don't ever fire both of the triacs at the same time.  Put a fuse and switch for the AC going into the full wave bridge.  My fuse is is 1A ... one amp.

Good luck and be safe.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 17, 2008, 09:14:43 PM
Expert Needed because I'm not :)

On the Nexus circuit.

1.--Could someone show how to make the three to five 1n5408 half bride rectifier?

2.--If you wanted to use resistors with the 1n5408 diodes what size should you use?

I went to this site and I'm still a little confuse on which way to go. http://www.powerdesigners.com/InfoWeb/design_center/articles/Diodes/diodes.shtm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 17, 2008, 10:01:48 PM
@happyvalley808
I live in Vietnam. We can only buy some common electronics components from China at local shops. Some of them work unrealiably. Even they don't have datasheet.
Sorry some guys come from China. That's just my feel.
[/quot

Check out this company, there located in thailand......futerlec.com ...Check out 6A10 diodes 1000V 6A

I live in hawaii , 2 day shipping cost me  $18, not bad..

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on September 17, 2008, 11:17:53 PM
Quote
Expert Needed because I'm not Smiley

On the Nexus circuit.

1.--Could someone show how to make the three to five 1n5408 half bride rectifier?

2.--If you wanted to use resistors with the 1n5408 diodes what size should you use?

I went to this site and I'm still a little confuse on which way to go. http://www.powerdesigners.com/InfoWeb/design_center/articles/Diodes/diodes.shtm

@bwb

The half wave bridge rectifier is just a single diode.  Bill used 5 diodes in series on his circuit but stated that they were not all needed.  Three would more than likely be sufficient.  All you have to do is solder at least 3 diodes together end to end, just like the 60 diode string and the 7 diode cross talk blocker.

I'm not sure about the resistors, maybe someone else can help with that one.

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 02:03:51 AM
@bwb

The half wave bridge rectifier is just a single diode.  Bill used 5 diodes in series on his circuit but stated that they were not all needed.  Three would more than likely be sufficient.  All you have to do is solder at least 3 diodes together end to end, just like the 60 diode string and the 7 diode cross talk blocker.

I'm not sure about the resistors, maybe someone else can help with that one.

LapperLL

Hi lapperll,

as you can see the circuit needs to be very very simple so questions like this don't come up. Does the software you used for the circuit have a picture of a diode?  if so, can you please use it or import a pic of one and paste 4 diodes in series and you may as well do the rest of the diodes just to make it super clear of orientation and quantity.

I also noticed your capacitor does not say capacitor! it says 12.5uf MOC to which I assume stands for microwave oven capacitor.
Please note that MOC are only around 1uf so that may also cause confusion or more questions. Can you please also have a pic of a capacitor in your circuit and title it  "Capacitor of 10uf to 40uf rated minimum 200v for 120 volt inverters. For 220 volt inverters use 5uf to 20uf minimum 400 volts." Are we only using non polarized capacitor? if so you also need to write this and if polarized capacitors can be used then you need to indicate the + and the - on the correct sides.
 
You may as well have a pic of a MOT! oh yes, also don't call it a MOT!  write it out as not everyone is familiar with that term. Show the wires connecting only to the primary and write that the secondary windings (fine wire) are not used.

I also noticed you have H for Hot wire and N for neutral, again we are asking for trouble here. Maybe write it out and include more information as to how one would know which is which.

I hope this is not too much to ask ;D  but in the long run if we keep it to this standard of simplicity we will save much time with questions.


@Groundloop, if you are ready to do the same with your circuit that would be great since as you said it will be the more bullet proof circuit.

Thanks for all your help.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 02:21:12 AM
@gotoluc > totaly agree with you i am confused about all these cirucits.What i think you guys should do make an agrement wich is the SIMPLE and EASY to build and EFFECTIVE.

lots of new folks want to try it incl. my friends but they are confused.For me the NEXUS looks good.

Hi Mr.Tesla,

Who is "you guys" anyway?.  This forum is an open exchange of ideas from everyone for everyone.  People build what they want.   I built my design, it works and I shared it.  Now I'm building the Nexus circuit because there's cause to believe it works too.

I wasn't aware there was a panel sitting in judgment waiting to rule on a final design that everyone is going to build.  I for one feed off of enthusiasm, hope and expectation, but I hope this forum isn't getting hijacked.

Sincerely,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 18, 2008, 02:49:46 AM
Hi lapperll,

as you can see the circuit needs to be very very simple so questions like this don't come up. Does the software you used for the circuit have a picture of a diode?  if so, can you please use it or import a pic of one and paste 4 diodes in series and you may as well do the rest of the diodes just to make it super clear of orientation and quantity.

I also noticed your capacitor does not say capacitor! it says 12.5uf MOC to which I assume stands for microwave oven capacitor.
Please note that MOC are only around 1uf so that may also cause confusion or more questions. Can you please also have a pic of a capacitor in your circuit and title it  "Capacitor of 10uf to 40uf rated minimum 200v for 120 volt inverters. For 220 volt inverters use 5uf to 20uf minimum 400 volts." Are we only using non polarized capacitor? if so you also need to write this and if polarized capacitors can be used then you need to indicate the + and the - on the correct sides.
 
You may as well have a pic of a MOT! oh yes, also don't call it a MOT!  write it out as not everyone are familiar with that term. Show the wires connecting only to the primary and write that the secondary windings (fine wire) are not used.

I also noticed you have H for Hot wire and N for neutral, again we are asking for trouble here. Maybe write it out and include more information as to how one would know which is which.

I hope this is not too much to ask ;D  but in the long run if we keep it to this standard of simplicity we will save much time with questions.


@Groundloop if you are ready to do the same with your circuit that would be great since as you said it will be the more bullet proof circuit.

Thanks for all your help.

Luc

Hi Luc...
I might also add that if someone feels motivated to help..... a "parts list" would be helpful.......
For instance:
I sent the diagram to a friend who wants to get started...... he looked up the 1N5408 diode ..... and found 5 different "versions"...... so I agree..... the cleaerr and more bullet proof we can make all finalized circuits ..... the less questions and the more SUCCESSES and encouragement we will have.

cheers 2 all  ;D
randy
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on September 18, 2008, 03:24:23 AM
Quote
Hi Mr.Tesla,

Who is "you guys" anyway?.  This forum is an open exchange of ideas from everyone for everyone.  People build what they want.   I built my design, it works and I shared it.  Now I'm building the Nexus circuit because there's cause to believe it works too.

I wasn't aware there was a panel sitting in judgment waiting to rule on a final design that everyone is going to build.  I for one feed off of enthusiasm, hope and expectation, but I hope this forum isn't getting hijacked.

Sincerely,

Greg


@gmeast
Here! Here!


@gotuluc,
Please note that the Nexus circuit is not mine!!  All I have done is clean up the diagram for Bill from    http://skyhero.com/ (http://skyhero.com/).

Per the inventors request, I have not strayed too far from his original design.

I had some spare time and like gmeast, I felt that the design had merit and wanted to assist in getting the information out there to the public.

If anyone wants to improve on the diagram, then by all means feel free to.  Any vector graphics based software can edit the pdf file and I would be willing to email to to anyone that PM's me.  The site will not allow more than a 100k upload, so I cannot post the actual pdf.


@gmeast,
  I love what you have done with advancing Luc's circuit and please do not get discouraged.  Keep up the awesome work. ;D

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 03:41:26 AM
Hi Luc...
I might also add that if someone feels motivated to help..... a "parts list" would be helpful.......
For instance:
I sent the diagram to a friend who wants to get started...... he looked up the 1N5408 diode ..... and found 5 different "versions"...... so I agree..... the cleaerr and more bullet proof we can make all finalized circuits ..... the less questions and the more SUCCESSES and encouragement we will have.

cheers 2 all  ;D
randy

Yes goldenequity I do agree a part list on the circuit would also be helpful.

I just picked up 200 pieces of 1N5408 for a total $20. including delivery to my door. Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/100-pcs-1N5408-Diodes-Rectifier-3A-1000V_W0QQitemZ270276765928QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270276765928&_trkparms=39%3A1

You need at most 100 to do a 6 cylinder engine, as I am quite sure you don't need 60 of them on the main string as Bill has said in the video that he over engineered the diode string. Do it if you want but I think 30 will be fine.

I'm now going to pickup a 220 volt inverter! I will post the link when I find it. Yes a 220 volt inverter!!!... it will work better for you than a 120 volt inverter as I have found that the effect is better at higher voltages so you use less capacitive energy. This is a video I did to demonstrate that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJVbA8Upvs

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on September 18, 2008, 03:49:00 AM
MUCH APPRECIATION....]
to all who donate your time.... and skills
failures and successes..... starting with Luc
without whom this thread and all the circuit variations
would not even EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please.... @ all.....KNOW that this is REALLY an
awesome thing that is going on here..... we lost an important member and contributor
to this thread named Ossie over hurt feelings and poor communications....
very unfortunate.... I REALLY miss him...
so
be kind and respectful and choose words wisely PLEASE.... we thrive on
suggestions, alternatives, encouragement, collaboration, successes and failures,
but not
demands or criticism/belittlement.... be careful.
thanks,
randy
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 04:37:11 AM
@lapperll
thanks for your reply and the help you have provided to date ;)

@everyone,
who would be up to the task of making the changes to the Nexus circuit as recommended in my post above: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg126862.html#msg126862

@goldenequity,
thanks for your kind words and mentioning this very important point. Words do have impact, so let us write softly. That goes for me, as some times I write a little too direct :-[

@everyone,
as mentioned in my above post here is the 220v inverter I purchased. I 'm taking a small risk here ($20. delivered :P) and going for a 150 watts inverter since Bill has said in the video that the consumption was only 100ma!!!... and that was using 120 volts!  so if that's the case I think a 220 volts 150 watts should do the trick. If not I'll loose a hole $20.  :( 
Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/150W-Car-Charger-DC-12V-AC-220V-Power-Inverter-Adapter_W0QQitemZ250296515216QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250296515216&_trkparms=39%3A1

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 18, 2008, 05:06:27 AM
@bwb

The half wave bridge rectifier is just a single diode.  Bill used 5 diodes in series on his circuit but stated that they were not all needed.  Three would more than likely be sufficient.  All you have to do is solder at least 3 diodes together end to end, just like the 60 diode string and the 7 diode cross talk blocker.

I'm not sure about the resistors, maybe someone else can help with that one.

LapperLL

Thankyou for the reply.I hope I didn't sound to much like a idiot.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 05:22:47 AM
Expert Needed because I'm not :)

On the Nexus circuit.

1.--Could someone show how to make the three to five 1n5408 half bride rectifier?

2.--If you wanted to use resistors with the 1n5408 diodes what size should you use?

I went to this site and I'm still a little confuse on which way to go. http://www.powerdesigners.com/InfoWeb/design_center/articles/Diodes/diodes.shtm

Hi bwb,

I know it can be confusing when new at this. Believe me this is the simplest it has gotten so far and It took a while to get here. I am trying to help you and others who will come or even those who are here but too shy to post there simple questions so they just keep reading silently in the background so not to interfere with the development and hoping we will post something they can understand.

My hopes are we will come to a very simple circuit and or kit one could buy made or assemble themselves, it is a question of time, sharing and involvement that will bring us there. My hopes are to make it available for close to what it would cost you to buy the parts alone.

To answer your question, there is no resistors in the circuit. Resistors would cancel the effect of the circuit. You also need to remove resistors from inside your plugs or buy non resistor plugs. Video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0
All diodes in the circuit are in series.

I hope this helps

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 05:34:26 AM
All,
..............................................................................
Comparing the two circuits is not possible. The Nexus circuit uses the motor ignition and timing as it is.
You just add parts to get the plasma flame at the sparkplugs. Greg's circuit uses reed relays and must
be timed by using magnets on the motor flywheel. It is a more complex circuit and is not for the beginner
if you ask me.
.............................................................................
Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,

What you said is incorrect.  I used reed switches because they were easy.  All triggering hardware uses the distributor's rotor with an optical chopper and gate triggering circuitry ... like one would expect ...NOT on the flywheel.  The circuit I posted was the "exact" circuit I used in the VIDEO.  That posted circuit is NOT the version that goes in a vehicle.  Please don't be so quick to find fault with others' contribution(s) to this effort.

Respectfully,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 18, 2008, 06:03:47 AM
....@everyone,
as mentioned in my above post here is the 220v inverter I purchased. I 'm taking a small risk here ($20. delivered :P) and going for a 150 watts inverter since Bill has said in the video that the consumption was only 100ma!!!... and that was using 120 volts!  so if that's the case I think a 220 volts 150 watts should do the trick. If not I'll loose a hole $20.  :( 
Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/150W-Car-Charger-DC-12V-AC-220V-Power-Inverter-Adapter_W0QQitemZ250296515216QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250296515216&_trkparms=39%3A1

Luc
Hi Luc,
Thanks for this find. I am jumping on this sparkplug testing because of yours and others posts, so I also bought one. I hope I get it soon here in usa.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 06:07:46 AM
Hi Groundloop,

What you said is incorrect.  I used reed switches because they were easy.  All triggering hardware uses the distributor's rotor with an optical chopper and gate triggering circuitry ... like one would expect ...NOT on the flywheel.  The circuit I posted was the "exact" circuit I used in the VIDEO.  That posted circuit is NOT the version that goes in a vehicle.  Please don't be so quick to find fault with others' contribution(s) to this effort.

Respectfully,

Greg

Hi Greg,

I think this is a misunderstanding ???... as I think Groundloop was just trying to guide this user to the simplest solution for now and not trying to find fault in your circuit. As we know and I have also posted and suggested for those who wish to have timing control your circuit is the simplest and most robust solution at this time. So I think Groundloop was just picking up that it still maybe too advanced for this user from the questions asked.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 06:20:22 AM
Hi Luc,
Thanks for this find. I am jumping on this sparkplug testing because of yours and others posts, so I also bought one. I hope I get it soon here in usa.

Hi insane4evr,

good for you ;D  the more the better!  as everyone will have new ideas and together will help improve the circuit. This is the great part in open forum public sharing ;) everyone wins ;D

I order most everything I need from eBay and from different parts of the World. I'm amazed with the fast delivery of stuff coming from half way around the World. Most of the time it takes about 10 days.

Keep us posted of your findings so we can grow

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 06:27:29 AM
@gotoluc,

Your are right.

@gmeast,

It was NOT trying to find fault in your circuit. You have a great circuit and I said that.

If you go back and look at my circuits for the 1,5HP project you will probably find
a LOT of errors there. :)  Sometimes English is a difficult language to communicate with.

Sorry if I hurt you feelings.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 07:00:16 AM
Thank you Groundloop I think and hope all is clear ;D

let's move on!

@Groundloop, Greg or anyone else good in electronics, I have some questions.

Do you think it would be needed to have a higher frequency than 50hz?

If so, do you think we can take a cheap inverter like I just bought ($20. delivered) and modify it to a higher frequency?   

If so, can one of you spend $20. and experiment with it?

My thinking is, since these are so cheap and maybe all we need for now, we could use just the circuit from them and add the circuit board we will hopefully create (once we test the circuit) which would have the coil, cap, diodes and mount it all in a new box which would have the HV wire leads ready to connect to the plugs. All in one box ready to buy and connect for those who can't build.

Let me know what you all think.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 07:16:22 AM
Okay all is clear, so let's move on!

@Groundloop, Greg or anyone else good in electronics, I have  questions.

Do you think it would be needed to have a higher frequency than 50hz?

If so, do you think we can take a cheap inverter like I just bought ($20. delivered) and modify it to a higher frequency?   

If so, can one of you spend $20. and experiment with it?

My thinking is, since these are so cheap and maybe all we need for now, we could use just the circuit from them and add our circuit board (once we test it) which would have the coil, cap, diodes and mount it all in a new box which would have the HV wire leads ready to connect to the plugs.

Let me know what you all think.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Yes.  It is possible to get into a harmonic (of sorts) if you run the engine too fast.  When calculating the rpm limit vs the inverter frequency I calculated an rpm limit if 3300 rpm for a six cylinder engine with an inverter feeding the circuit at 60 Hz.  Through a full bridge you have 120 Hz rectified 1/2 sine waves.  You need two of them per charge cycle to avoid charging in a trough (a minimum), so that puts you back at 60 Hz.  50Hz limits you more.  As your feed frequency from the inverter approaches your ignition frequency then things deteriorate.  The higher the frequency the better.  It's especially important for the CDI and important for the Nexus too since both circuits draw pulses from the inverters in real time.

CDI charge pumps run in the hundreds of Hz.  Well a little long winded but there ya go.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 07:29:29 AM
@gotoluc,

I have a somewhat different approach to the Inverter solution. I'm trying to build a small
power inverter (found the circuit on the net) with a Toroid transformer output. I'm about
to put the soldered electronic into a plastic box right now and will test the circuit soon.
(I posted the circuit earlier in this thread.) Attached is a image of the assembly.

If this Inverter works then I'm planning to seal the box with silicone glue to make the
unit water resistant. I think it is important to make the unit water resistant so that
it will survive in a car motor environment.The inverter oscillator can be tuned to a wide
range of frequencies ranging from a few Hz to many KHz. I think the best frequency
will be around 1Khz because of the Iron core Toroid transformer. With a Ferrite
toroid transformer core the unit can be tuned above 20KHz. Then it will be silent
to the human hearing. If we change the 330R resistor to 1K then the unit can be
switched on and off by a 12 volt signal (or relay).

Just some thoughts...........

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 07:48:10 AM
Thank you both Greg and Groundloop for such quick replies.

Man are we rolling today!!! ;D

@Groundloop, excellent looking circuit and looking forward to your toroid inverter test results.

Thanks for sharing guys

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 08:19:23 AM
@gotoluc,

I have looked inside my ready bought Inverter (thus invaliding the factory guarantie).
For me it seems possible to both adjust the output voltage and also the frequency
to some extent (VR1, VR2). How much, I do not know. Attached is a drawing on how I think
this inverter works.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 18, 2008, 01:32:50 PM
Has anybody actually tried this in a car?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on September 18, 2008, 02:29:10 PM
FYI: Page 5 of this thread......

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108905.html#msg108905

just add a cap (and MOT, if you want)....LOL

Things always come full circle........

want more DC volts?

(http://designstudioexpress.com/simple_setup_rev3.png)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 04:13:44 PM
All,

My home made small power inverter had its first run today. I used a 230VAC 25 Watt light bulb
on the output. The opto coupler was not in use yet so I just bypassed the 4047 reset to
ground to switch on the oscillator. Later I will use this opto (4N35) as a oscillator on/off switch.

The inverter did run cool and did not blow up! :) Some small problems was detected. The pulse
current demand was high so my lab power supply went "high wire" on the current display.
I will try to solve that problem by adding a input filter to the inverter.

I will also do a longer test run for several hours to see if this inverter can perform well. I will also
provide more data (current usage, frequency etc.) later.

But, it did run! :)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 04:24:16 PM
FYI: Page 5 of this thread......

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108905.html#msg108905

just add a cap (and MOT, if you want)....LOL

Things always come full circle........

want more DC volts?

(http://designstudioexpress.com/simple_setup_rev3.png)

Hi xbox hacker,

Yup! that's great!  This reminds me of my tig welding equipment.  It uses a high freq. Hv arc to create a conduit for the high amperage welding voltage to jump onto.  All you have to do is get the welding tip close to the workpiece and the high freq arc jumps the gap and then the 'regular' arc starts.  You don't need to touch the workpiece to start.  It's also called "soft start"

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 18, 2008, 04:36:14 PM
All,

My home made small power inverter had its first run today. I used a 230VAC 25 Watt light bulb
on the output. The opto coupler was not in use yet so I just bypassed the 4047 reset to
ground to switch on the oscillator. Later I will use this opto (4N35) as a oscillator on/off switch.

The inverter did run cool and did not blow up! :) Some small problems was detected. The pulse
current demand was high so my lab power supply went "high wire" on the current display.
I will try to solve that problem by adding a input filter to the inverter.

I will also do a longer test run for several hours to see if this inverter can perform well. I will also
provide more data (current usage, frequency etc.) later.

But, it did run! :)

Groundloop.
Hi Groundloop,

Very nice circuit. Simple and the output is completely isolated from the input which is probably needed to avoid frying inverters if not connected properly.
Maybe there is a way of providing a "dead time" during the gating transition between the two mosfets. It should minimize current spikes.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 04:50:34 PM
Has anybody actually tried this in a car?

Yes! see video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1149735778386216742&hl=en

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 04:51:34 PM
@insane4evr,

Thank you. :D

As I said, some small problems has to be solved.

I do not know if the 4047 IC has any dead time control. But I will look it up.

The circuit is making a LOT of noise when used directly on a car battery (or in my case, a lab supply).
So I will need a input filter for the unit. I'm working on that right now. Will post a solution
in a hour or so.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 18, 2008, 05:00:13 PM
@gotoluc,

I have looked inside my ready bought Inverter (thus invaliding the factory guarantie).
For me it seems possible to both adjust the output voltage and also the frequency
to some extent (VR1, VR2). How much, I do not know. Attached is a drawing on how I think
this inverter works.

Groundloop.

Thanks Groundloop for looking into this further ;)  Maybe what I can do is buy a 2nd one to experiment with since they are only $20. and crack her open and see if it has any pots and play around to see what happens.

Very clean job on you new inverter!

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 18, 2008, 05:03:22 PM
i saw that video and i was thinking of a video with showing engine that it works on water..(not stanley meyer).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 05:14:28 PM
@gotoluc,

Thanks.

Well I do not think the manufacturer will give us the circuit drawing so your
proposal is maybe the only way to find out what we could do with a ready
made inverter. What worries me more is the way those inverters are built.
The output from the inverter does not come directly from a transformer,
but is a chopped up DC voltage. It may be needed to check the polarity
of the output. I also do not know if the output fets will survive the first
ignition coil pulse before the ignition coil flips and the diode blocks
the high voltage. Only one way to find out, try it on a car.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on September 18, 2008, 05:14:46 PM
Impressive stuff groundloop, you work fast  ;D

Just a quick question, Im looking for a cheap place to get a PCB done. I usually make my PCB at home, the artwork is done on protel/altium. Its the solder mask that really bothers me, its not easy soldering without solder mask on the PCB.

Did you do yours at home or did you get it made?

Im actually designing a CDI, based on 2 power MOSFETs + high side drivers + PIC + hall effects.

The advance/retard is controlled by the PIC on the fly up to +/- 30 deg. Mapping can also be added with ease.

Its only a test circuit at the moment, so far it seems to be working fine, still alot of coding and testing to do. Funny enough I got stuck in getting the tachometer part to work properly LOL.

Im not gonna bother with the inverter at the moment though. Im just gonna use what I already have.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on September 18, 2008, 05:32:38 PM
who would be up to the task of making the changes to the Nexus circuit

I can remake it in the same style if you want but I will need to know the exact info for any part changes or descriptions needed so I can add them... but first I can remake the image and add the diodes images to see how it looks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 18, 2008, 06:01:48 PM
@Chris31,

Thank you.

I use factory made PCBs. I send the gerber and drill files into a online database at the factory.
The PCBs are expensive but I think it is wort it. If you want very good PCBs then you must
find a PCB manufacturer in your country. I use the Eagle CAD when designing electronic.

All,

I found another problem with the inverter. The on/off opto control did not work as planned because
the 4047 IC just went high on the inverted Q output, thus clocking the power transistor on all
the time. I just removed the on/off opto and circuit. Will use a relay to control the inverter on
and off. Attached is the new circuit drawing.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 08:16:59 PM
Thank you Groundloop I think and hope all is clear ;D

let's move on!

@Groundloop, Greg or anyone else good in electronics, I have some questions.

Do you think it would be needed to have a higher frequency than 50hz?

If so, do you think we can take a cheap inverter like I just bought ($20. delivered) and modify it to a higher frequency?   

If so, can one of you spend $20. and experiment with it?

My thinking is, since these are so cheap and maybe all we need for now, we could use just the circuit from them and add the circuit board we will hopefully create (once we test the circuit) which would have the coil, cap, diodes and mount it all in a new box which would have the HV wire leads ready to connect to the plugs. All in one box ready to buy and connect for those who can't build.

Let me know what you all think.

Luc

Hi Luc,

I'm not sure if this will be of use for the Nexus style circuit but I solved the frequency issue for my type of CDI producing your water spark effect.

It needs to be said that my circuit triggering method is NOT what you would put in a vehicle.  The proper technique is either Hall effect or optical chopper on the distributor shaft. 

The diagram below solves my frequency issue by replacing the Charge Triac with a Charge Power Mosfet.  I also added a 470 uf -400 VDC Cap shown right under the FWB.  This makes a DC power supply of sorts.  The circuit has never been more stable  I am so happy!.

To anyone looking to experiment with a multiple spark plug CDI Plasma system, this is a very stable configuration.  In 'real' CDI systems the charge side is usually more sophisticated but the big Cap, FWB and Power Mosfet has solved several technical challenges using easily obtained components.

Enjoy.  Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distrib1.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 18, 2008, 08:48:39 PM
author=gotoluc link=topic=5024.msg126891#msg126891 date=1221708167]
Hi bwb,

I know it can be confusing when new at this. Believe me this is the simplest it has gotten so far and It took a while to get here. I am trying to help you and others who will come or even those who are here but too shy to post there simple questions so they just keep reading silently in the background so not to interfere with the development and hoping we will post something they can understand.
How am I suppose to take your statement.Is it OK for us simpletons to ask questions here or should we stay in the background and not interfere. ??? ;D
Simpletons stay silently in the background and do not interfere
.
Just joking - Don't get upset

My hopes are we will come to a very simple circuit and or kit one could buy made or assemble themselves, it is a question of time, sharing and involvement that will bring us there. My hopes are to make it available for close to what it would cost you to buy the parts alone.
That would be great and I hope you suceed

To answer your question, there is no resistors in the circuit. Resistors would cancel the effect of the circuit. You also need to remove resistors from inside your plugs or buy non resistor plugs. Video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0
All diodes in the circuit are in series.

I know there is no resistors in the circuit.
I also  know about the plugs! I have posted a link several times here for a online store that carries a wide range of NR plugs.
What I was wanting to know with the resistor question? I was wondering if running resistors in parallel with each diode as geovel156 did in his plasma circuit to help protect the diodes could be applied to the Nexus circuit. Reading up on diodes I found they say to do this to help stop the reverse voltage avalanche breakdown effect when running diodes in series..I will be using a12vdc to120vac inverter with1N5408 1000V 3A diodes and was needing to know what size resistor would be best to try because I had no ideal how to even calculate that and if it would even work.or if it was even needed. But since you say it will not work I will not even try it.Below is a part of geovel56 post back on page 21.

geovel56 Plasma Arc Circuit and part of his Reply #832 and Reply #834
"Sometimes a diode may not have all the proper characteristics as rated. If one diode is actually weaker and internally not functioning up to specifications, it will blow and cause a cascading chain of blown diodes. The 500K ohm resistors in parallel with the diodes equalizes the diodes".


Thanks to everyone who help answer my questions and especially about the "??half bridge rectifier??."

:-X Goodby everyone--This will be me in the background watching
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 09:41:43 PM
author=gotoluc link=topic=5024.msg126891#msg126891 date=1221708167]
Hi bwb,

I know it can be confusing when new at this. Believe me this is the simplest it has gotten so far and It took a while to get here. I am trying to help you and others who will come or even those who are here but too shy to post there simple questions so they just keep reading silently in the background so not to interfere with the development and hoping we will post something they can understand.
..............................................................................................

Hi all,

I know most questions relate to the Nexus circuit now.  But for the sake of those interested in understanding what I have posted I have included a diagram showing the equivalent circuit using a simple single relay.  If this helps in the understanding then I'm glad.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distribeq.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 18, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
@gmeast > look your schematic is ok but its still far awaaay till i can put this thing in my car couse my car aint a cammaro that S1r has.
Why not double/triple the voltage that comes from the coil stock and already as it is.Would be much simplier.

Yea these circuits are infact a good/superb start but its still long way.1.5 hp engines yea but Modern engines doubt it.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 18, 2008, 09:59:32 PM
@All,

S1R says he solved the surging problem in his water motor....


> The problem of the surging has been found. In all the time looking
> into the electrical parts as the problem I got ta thinking. Whats
> deferent in all of the applications on all the engines that have
been
> tested.
> The Elcamino and the generator are useing the same parts, the
relays.
> why wont the new stuff do the same? Well looking at the whole
picture
> at once and its hard to see the small details of the system. I
called
> every one who tested the new stuff and they all had the same answer.
>
> ( None of the test engines , mine encluded, were set up so the
> exhaust would be run back to the intake and be reused. )
>
> I was looking over Stan Meyers work when I took notice of this. In
> his notes it showed that the injectors he used also had other gases
> that were being used, what other gases, I thought on this for a
> while, ( 6 months now ), and came to realize what gases he was
> talking about.
>
> So I ask some one a question. What would happen if you were to
> seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen and feed just plain air
with
> it then use this inside an ICE engine, what would the exhaust gases
> be? HNOS was the reply. then I ask what would happen if these gases
> were exhuasted and directed back into the intake of the same
engine,
> what would the results be as the exhaust gases were combined with
the
> first gas mixtures to the intake then burned in the engine? Answer-
A
> constant incress of NOS build up as if you were useing a
pressureized
> tank to feed the gas to the engine, and combined with the
> hydrogen/oxygen mix and water vapor the combustion would be very
fast
> and cause high pressures in the cylinders.
>
> Now the deferences between the test engines and the other two. None
> of the test engines were feeding the exhaust gases back to the
intake
> to reuse the NOS gas as a booster for the water (hydrogen/oxygen)
> being used.
>
> The results of this finding as seems many others was over looked by
> me and the others as well.
>
> A simple thing like reuseing the exhaust gases to help split the
> water at the plug when its fired.
>
> The missing link. The Elcamino and the generators exhaust run to a
> holding tank and then to the engine again. The NOS is in the water
> its self bonded by the effect of compressed explosion in the
> cylinder.
>
> I changed my design so it would work. I hope to show it in Flarida
> next month.
>
> S1R.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 18, 2008, 10:02:18 PM
@happyvalley808  > tell S1R to test his thory on electronic fuel injected engine and this time more detail.It dosent help me if i cant reproduce it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 18, 2008, 10:09:50 PM
@gmeast > look your schematic is ok but its still far awaaay till i can put this thing in my car couse my car aint a cammaro that S1r has.
Why not double/triple the voltage that comes from the coil stock and already as it is.Would be much simplier.

Yea these circuits are infact a good/superb start but its still long way.1.5 hp engines yea but Modern engines doubt it.




Hi Mr.Tesla,

Understood.  The CDI Plasma requires more.  Most not familiar with electronics or components will be intimidated.  I am concentrating on simplifying but it's just about there.  There will be no way around it.  A CDI is a different animal.  It will require putting an electronic pick up in place of the points in the distributor.   It's not for the faint of heart.  You'll just have to wait and see how successful the Nexus circuit is if you want a bolt-on or drop-in system.  As Groundloop said, "...the two circuits cannot be compared..."  I have a feeling that proper integration of these principles into modern vehicle will only be possible on the manufacturing level.

Thanks for your comments.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 18, 2008, 10:22:20 PM
@happyvalley808  > tell S1R to test his thory on electronic fuel injected engine and this time more detail.It dosent help me if i cant reproduce it.



Nothing is impossible, except your state of mind makes it so........Negativity is not necessary....

Aloha,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: flyag1 on September 18, 2008, 11:19:27 PM
Hi Mr.Tesla,

Understood.  The CDI Plasma requires more.  Most not familiar with electronics or components will be intimidated.  I am concentrating on simplifying but it's just about there.  There will be no way around it.  A CDI is a different animal.  It will require putting an electronic pick up in place of the points in the distributor.   It's not for the faint of heart.  You'll just have to wait and see how successful the Nexus circuit is if you want a bolt-on or drop-in system.  As Groundloop said, "...the two circuits cannot be compared..."  I have a feeling that proper integration of these principles into modern vehicle will only be possible on the manufacturing level.

Thanks for your comments.  Peace,

Greg

Greg, I have to almost agree with your statement: "integration of principles only possible on manufacturing level"

It seems to me (reading from multiple sights and threads) most modifiers are trying to force stock components to comply to new rules as opposed to replacing components with simplified high performance aftermarket components.  No computer is needed to burn fuel and make power... for those who don't believe all you have to do is go down to the local drag strip and look under a hood or two... It may well be simpler to remove and replace the complete distributor systems  as well as intake systems of late model ice.  Go back to simple throttle body systems and cam timed distributes...  the cost to replace components may end up being less than paying to manipulate the on board computers. 

Getting around the rules as currently stated by the EPA is a different matter.  Its going to take a total re-write of the laws for compliance... luckily for me I live in a state whereby no mandate exist for annual emissions testing:) 

I am still trying to decide what system / systems to try and replicate... HHO and / or Plasma...  so far nothing stands out as the right choice :-\  But when I do decide I will not be restricted to using the manufactures stock components... 
     
C the Light,
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Area 51 on September 19, 2008, 12:47:14 AM
@All,

S1R says he solved the surging problem in his water motor....


> The problem of the surging has been found. In all the time looking
> into the electrical parts as the problem I got ta thinking. Whats
> deferent in all of the applications on all the engines that have
been
> tested.
> The Elcamino and the generator are useing the same parts, the
relays.
> why wont the new stuff do the same? Well looking at the whole
picture
> at once and its hard to see the small details of the system. I
called
> every one who tested the new stuff and they all had the same answer.
>
> ( None of the test engines , mine encluded, were set up so the
> exhaust would be run back to the intake and be reused. )
>
> I was looking over Stan Meyers work when I took notice of this. In
> his notes it showed that the injectors he used also had other gases
> that were being used, what other gases, I thought on this for a
> while, ( 6 months now ), and came to realize what gases he was
> talking about.
>
> So I ask some one a question. What would happen if you were to
> seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen and feed just plain air
with
> it then use this inside an ICE engine, what would the exhaust gases
> be? HNOS was the reply. then I ask what would happen if these gases
> were exhuasted and directed back into the intake of the same
engine,
> what would the results be as the exhaust gases were combined with
the
> first gas mixtures to the intake then burned in the engine? Answer-
A
> constant incress of NOS build up as if you were useing a
pressureized
> tank to feed the gas to the engine, and combined with the
> hydrogen/oxygen mix and water vapor the combustion would be very
fast
> and cause high pressures in the cylinders.
>
> Now the deferences between the test engines and the other two. None
> of the test engines were feeding the exhaust gases back to the
intake
> to reuse the NOS gas as a booster for the water (hydrogen/oxygen)
> being used.
>
> The results of this finding as seems many others was over looked by
> me and the others as well.
>
> A simple thing like reuseing the exhaust gases to help split the
> water at the plug when its fired.
>
> The missing link. The Elcamino and the generators exhaust run to a
> holding tank and then to the engine again. The NOS is in the water
> its self bonded by the effect of compressed explosion in the
> cylinder.
>
> I changed my design so it would work. I hope to show it in Flarida
> next month.
>
> S1R.


I find it funny that he has had the El Camino running on water for 3 years  ::) , but " Oh wait, I forgot I closed loop the exhaust on the El Camino. That's why the motor's are surging now ". What was he thinking, lol. This gets funnier everyday. Just where is "Flarida" anyway?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 19, 2008, 01:00:58 AM
@Area51,

I understand everyone's frustration, I agree that it's funny he forgets such important factors........I'm not waiting for S1R to do anything, but I will consider what he has to say....

Regards,

HV 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Area 51 on September 19, 2008, 01:07:50 AM
@Area51,

I understand everyone's frustration, I agree that it's funny he forgets such important factors........I'm not waiting for S1R to do anything, but I will consider what he has to say....

Regards,

HV 

I agree, no one should wait. Also I find it interesting reading his posts, humorous to say the least.  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 19, 2008, 02:25:24 AM
Ok everyone,

This is just some free energy stuff ... energy from the void ... from the vortex ...from the aether ... from the seething vacuum, etc.

I posted a video and proposed some conclusions about what initiates the plasma burst we're all working on.

This was just fun to do. Nothing scientific, just interesting.

The video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB247Gy4Mg4

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tiltfulll on September 19, 2008, 02:49:02 AM
@Area51,

I understand everyone's frustration, I agree that it's funny he forgets such important factors........I'm not waiting for S1R to do anything, but I will consider what he has to say....

Regards,

HV 

Where is he talking?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 19, 2008, 02:57:23 AM
On his forum, waterfuel1978
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on September 19, 2008, 04:24:17 AM
Guys, if any one wants to know about custom hacked Inverters, needing pulse width modulation etc etc, check out this doc.
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/Trans-verter%20R%20and%20D.pdf

Ash
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 19, 2008, 05:20:14 AM
Guys, if any one wants to know about custom hacked Inverters, needing pulse width modulation etc etc, check out this doc.
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/Trans-verter%20R%20and%20D.pdf

Ash

Yes! Thanks Ash,

This is a great document.  A key to its usefulness is harnessing the OU energy.

Thanks for posting,

Greg
Title: Nexus PDF 09|18|08
Post by: goldenequity on September 19, 2008, 08:17:39 AM
@ all
This is a cut and paste from Bill/Nexus .pdf.... just the verbiage... I don't know if it's been updated since he first posted.
I post it here as reference for the thread.  :)


Quote
The Nexus Plasma Arc Circuit
Copyright © 2008

All information is hereby released into the public domain for public use.
"Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power
obtainable at any point in the universe. . .it is a mere question of time when
men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of
nature." - Nikola Tesla

What follows is what I did. I don’t recommend that you do it. It’s dangerous. So don’t do it. But if you do and you (or anybody in your vicinity) gets zapped, it’s your own fault. Read Everything, then read some more - - - -

The inverter is physically and electrically isolated from vehicle ground. Because of this, the only path for 120 VDC is through the dipole created across the spark plug gap.

OK, the Nexus hot wire is connected directly to the engine block, but it’s relative. Just don’t use your inverter for making coffee.

120 VAC from the inverter is directed through a MOT (microwave oven transformer) primary to a half wave rectifier.

The MOT secondary is not used. A MOT secondary has one side tied to the transformer core, so I placed a wire nut on the secondary HV output and gave it a few coats of tool dip – just to make sure.

Without the MOT in series with the input, the plasma arc shoots out two or three inches and welds the anode and cathode of the plug together in short order.

So if you decide to disregard my advice and play with this, be careful.
The MOT can easily be configured into a saturable reactor, which should allow for variable control of the current.

The diodes are all 1N5408 rated at 800V and 3 amps each. They are available through Newark:
for a very reasonable cost – like 150 diodes for around twenty bucks. Newark provides quick shipping and excellent customer service.

          http://www.newark.com/58K9608/semiconductorsdiscretes/product.us0?sku=fairchild-semiconductor-1n5408_requestid=75114


The capacitor is 12.5 uF, 250 volt and was taken from the same microwave as the MOT. I don’t think the capacitor values are critical. It’s just in there to keep DC from going away for half an input cycle.

The negative side of the rectified 120 V is directed through a string of diodes sufficient enough to block the ground path  through the circuit that the HV from the engine coil will see (remember, nearly anything looks like ground to HV).

The lazy HV will take the easiest path, you know. This will vary with the application. Too few diodes and we don’t get a spark across the plug.

I have two strings of 60 diodes in parallel to provide 48KV of blocking at 6 amps current. I don’t need two strings because the max current I’ve seen through the Nexus circuit is quite a bit less than an amp even with a two inch arc shooting out the plug.

I’m running four plugs in the VW camper van, and all those anodes are connected to the same dipole feed wire from the Nexus supply, which results in spark plug cross fire.

To eliminate crossfire, I installed 7 diodes in series with each individual dipole feed wire. The dipole created across the plug gap creates a nexus to the void – but you knew that, right?

That’s where the energy comes from, and that’s why the current drain on the
Nexus supply is so low. I can explain all this (from my perspective, of course) if you’re interested, but before you ask, you should resolve the question:
What has less resistance than a short?

If you understand the dipole and the nexus contained therein, you’re on your way to even more interesting things, like free energy from magnets, what E=MC2 really means, what happens after we ‘die’ and much more.

Yeah – it’s all very simple. That’s it. Let’s work together on this. I don’t do politics, but it would be nice to get out from under terrorism and back to a free country again.

So, if you make improvements, please share them with everyone so we can get off fossil fuel. I’ll be happy to post your links to relevant stuff and we have a forum that you’re welcome to use.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on September 19, 2008, 10:04:40 AM
Guys, if any one wants to know about custom hacked Inverters, needing pulse width modulation etc etc, check out this doc.
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/Trans-verter%20R%20and%20D.pdf

Ash

From page 3 of this  PDF

Quote

Loading the sides of 3PH transformers A, C phase exteriorizes and projects FIELD outside transformer. If another LOOP is used it becomes a magneto-transistor. Experimentation is the key to obtain these effects.



A magneto-transistor?
Can  anyone  explain a bit more about how to do this ?

If   the idea  works wouldn't  it  be  the ideal circuit  water arc power ? 


gary 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 19, 2008, 01:42:54 PM
Its already done  http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/IgnitionBasics.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 19, 2008, 04:36:32 PM
Impressive stuff groundloop, you work fast  ;D

Just a quick question, Im looking for a cheap place to get a PCB done. I usually make my PCB at home, the artwork is done on protel/altium. Its the solder mask that really bothers me, its not easy soldering without solder mask on the PCB.

Did you do yours at home or did you get it made?

Im actually designing a CDI, based on 2 power MOSFETs + high side drivers + PIC + hall effects.

The advance/retard is controlled by the PIC on the fly up to +/- 30 deg. Mapping can also be added with ease.

Its only a test circuit at the moment, so far it seems to be working fine, still alot of coding and testing to do. Funny enough I got stuck in getting the tachometer part to work properly LOL.

Im not gonna bother with the inverter at the moment though. Im just gonna use what I already have.

Hi Chris 31,

I have already done the "pump n' dump".  It works great!  It is stable and I've solved the frequency problem.  See my diagrams this page.  The new mod is going on my '64 VW Bug.  It'll run in a week or less.

This is a just a suggestion.  Build your CDI and then worry about the micro last.  I've been there and you might end up spending more of your valuable time trying to make your code work right.  This is just a friendly suggestion.

Sincerely. Respectfully.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on September 19, 2008, 05:18:19 PM
@ Groundloop

Many thanks, I will check out some online company, I have seen some ebay seller providing PCB service but most of them are from china the last time I checked.

But in the meantime Ill stick with home made stuff. The PCB is single sided and not that complex.

@gmeast

I know what you mean about not doing the coding as yet. I even mentioned that in the thread myself LOL.

Because I wanted to get a nice controllable CDI for the small 2 stroke engine so I went ahead with the MCU based CDI like a mad man. I wanted to adjust and see all the setting on the fly electronically.

The hardware is done, main code is done, so I guess I dont have much choice but to go ahead, it cant work without the firmware LOL. Its modular so if parts blow up or dont work right I can just change it.

I been making alot of noise lately (running the engine / plasma sparks), me coding keep the people around me happy. Im not posting my circuit as yet until I know its all working correctly. To be honest I dont even have the circuit drawn correctly, I went straight to PCB and built it, my usual habbit that is.

Yes I saw your circuit, excellent stuff. Good luck with the test, keep us updated.

Keep up the good work guys :)

Cheers
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on September 19, 2008, 05:30:59 PM
I have remade the Nexus diagram as requested by Luc with the changes

adding every single diode made the image far too complex so its just image and description changes

the blank area on the left may be large enough for a parts list when we get the info

@Luc

please delete the image if anything is incorrect... I wasn't sure about the half wave bridge rectifier as on the original it said 3 to 5 1N5408 but you mentioned 4 diodes in series so I drew the diodes in the same direction as on the original and drew the diodes like the others to show them in series

EDIT: changed font error and size of image
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 19, 2008, 06:36:54 PM
Its already done  http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/IgnitionBasics.htm

Thanks Mr. Tesla.  Now I can get back to my regular work and earn some money.  Who from the forum is going to buy one of these so it can be experimented with?   I won't ... $1300.00 !

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 19, 2008, 08:23:44 PM
Yes i know i didn't look at the pricing sorry Greg. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on September 19, 2008, 08:46:42 PM
How is the Nexus circuit triggered with engine RPM or is it er.... Im lost how it knows when to fire if anyone can explain plz do..    :-[
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mr.Tesla on September 19, 2008, 08:48:20 PM
this is still in experimental stage so i wouldnt play with it until these guys make some sort of conclusion wich design is best.If you want to live don't play with it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Aka on September 19, 2008, 09:06:35 PM
How is the Nexus circuit triggered with engine RPM or is it er.... Im lost how it knows when to fire if anyone can explain plz do..    :-[

from what I understand it is triggered when the normal ignition cycle creates the spark over the spark plug... this spark creates a lower resistance over the gap which allows the high current from the nexus circuit to discharge across the gap
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on September 19, 2008, 09:11:41 PM
this is still in experimental stage so i wouldnt play with it until these guys make some sort of conclusion wich design is best.If you want to live don't play with it.

yeah.... I was try'n to think of other variations to ask for advice about around the scope of the circuit and was wandering if someone wuld be able to tell me wat wuld the HV from the cars plug wires fed into the secondary of the MOT do to the primary of the MOT  with it fed to the HV cap and then discharged to a spark plug? hmm the scope of the circuit I think or thought was the LV current ability to flow with the HV spark some how....  is that the scope of the circuit?  ( the ability of the LV current flow with the HV spark gap)
I'll go back to the very basic circuit ( the original ) and build it first.   thanks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 20, 2008, 05:06:37 AM
Hi Luc,

I'm not sure if this will be of use for the Nexus style circuit but I solved the frequency issue for my type of CDI producing your water spark effect.

It needs to be said that my circuit triggering method is NOT what you would put in a vehicle.  The proper technique is either Hall effect or optical chopper on the distributor shaft. 

The diagram below solves my frequency issue by replacing the Charge Triac with a Charge Power Mosfet.  I also added a 470 uf -400 VDC Cap shown right under the FWB.  This makes a DC power supply of sorts.  The circuit has never been more stable  I am so happy!.

To anyone looking to experiment with a multiple spark plug CDI Plasma system, this is a very stable configuration.  In 'real' CDI systems the charge side is usually more sophisticated but the big Cap, FWB and Power Mosfet has solved several technical challenges using easily obtained components.

Enjoy.  Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distrib1.jpg)

Hi Greg, I was away for a day so I'm catching up now ;D

Thanks for taking the time to solving the frequency issue to give us an update. I'll look at it over again a little later when I eventually ::) get to where you are at now.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 20, 2008, 05:22:57 AM
author=gotoluc link=topic=5024.msg126891#msg126891 date=1221708167]
Hi bwb,

I know it can be confusing when new at this. Believe me this is the simplest it has gotten so far and It took a while to get here. I am trying to help you and others who will come or even those who are here but too shy to post there simple questions so they just keep reading silently in the background so not to interfere with the development and hoping we will post something they can understand.
How am I suppose to take your statement.Is it OK for us simpletons to ask questions here or should we stay in the background and not interfere. ??? ;D
Simpletons stay silently in the background and do not interfere
.
Just joking - Don't get upset

My hopes are we will come to a very simple circuit and or kit one could buy made or assemble themselves, it is a question of time, sharing and involvement that will bring us there. My hopes are to make it available for close to what it would cost you to buy the parts alone.
That would be great and I hope you suceed

To answer your question, there is no resistors in the circuit. Resistors would cancel the effect of the circuit. You also need to remove resistors from inside your plugs or buy non resistor plugs. Video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0
All diodes in the circuit are in series.

I know there is no resistors in the circuit.
I also  know about the plugs! I have posted a link several times here for a online store that carries a wide range of NR plugs.
What I was wanting to know with the resistor question? I was wondering if running resistors in parallel with each diode as geovel156 did in his plasma circuit to help protect the diodes could be applied to the Nexus circuit. Reading up on diodes I found they say to do this to help stop the reverse voltage avalanche breakdown effect when running diodes in series..I will be using a12vdc to120vac inverter with1N5408 1000V 3A diodes and was needing to know what size resistor would be best to try because I had no ideal how to even calculate that and if it would even work.or if it was even needed. But since you say it will not work I will not even try it.Below is a part of geovel56 post back on page 21.

geovel56 Plasma Arc Circuit and part of his Reply #832 and Reply #834
"Sometimes a diode may not have all the proper characteristics as rated. If one diode is actually weaker and internally not functioning up to specifications, it will blow and cause a cascading chain of blown diodes. The 500K ohm resistors in parallel with the diodes equalizes the diodes".


Thanks to everyone who help answer my questions and especially about the "??half bridge rectifier??."

:-X Goodby everyone--This will be me in the background watching

Hi bwb,

thanks for clearing up your resistor question. I see now but can't help you since it's not something I understand or have ever used. I'm not much of an electronic guy. I just pay around with this stuff an learn as I go.

I hope you will find your answers.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 20, 2008, 05:36:29 AM
Ok everyone,

This is just some free energy stuff ... energy from the void ... from the vortex ...from the aether ... from the seething vacuum, etc.

I posted a video and proposed some conclusions about what initiates the plasma burst we're all working on.

This was just fun to do. Nothing scientific, just interesting.

The video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB247Gy4Mg4

Peace,

Greg

How that is interesting :o  Nice find there Greg!... I wonder :-\ if the wide air gap would still allow a static charge but you would not see the spark ???... don't know.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 20, 2008, 05:41:12 AM
Guys, if any one wants to know about custom hacked Inverters, needing pulse width modulation etc etc, check out this doc.
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/Trans-verter%20R%20and%20D.pdf

Ash

Thanks Ash for keeping an eye on us and helping find answers.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 20, 2008, 05:52:39 AM
I have remade the Nexus diagram as requested by Luc with the changes

adding every single diode made the image far too complex so its just image and description changes

the blank area on the left may be large enough for a parts list when we get the info

@Luc

please delete the image if anything is incorrect... I wasn't sure about the half wave bridge rectifier as on the original it said 3 to 5 1N5408 but you mentioned 4 diodes in series so I drew the diodes in the same direction as on the original and drew the diodes like the others to show them in series

EDIT: changed font error and size of image

Great job Aka ;)  looks good to me!

If anyone sees anything else that is not clear or what ever please let us know.

Thanks Aka for this great job.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 20, 2008, 06:08:34 AM
@Gotoluc,

Thanks to you and everyone for the great work.....

On the nexus circuit, the only correction needed would be on the cap is it AC or DC ?


Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 20, 2008, 06:40:05 AM
@bwb, @gotoluc,

You do not need any resistors at all. Just make sure to use enough number of diodes in series
so that you never are near the maximum diode voltage for each diode. Design for worst case.
Nexus uses at least 60 diodes (800 volt type) in series. I use 37 (1300 volt type) in series.
Bot diode strings can handle up to 48 000 Volt. If we say the car ignition voltage is 30 000 volt
then; 30 000 / 60 = 500 Volt for first case and 30 000 / 37 = 810 Volt for the second case.
So in both cases we are nowhere near the maximum diode break down voltage.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 20, 2008, 06:56:39 AM
Hi Greg,

I have two questions about your circuit if you don't mind.

What is the purpose of the diode across the + and - terminals of the ignition coil? Are there different effects with it and without it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 20, 2008, 08:23:35 AM
Hi Greg,

I have two questions about your circuit if you don't mind.

What is the purpose of the diode across the + and - terminals of the ignition coil? Are there different effects with it and without it?

Hi,

The coil is a nasty inductive load.  The diode is an ultra-fast recovery diode that protects the Triac ... or Mosfet ... whichever is used.  Whenever a coil is driven by a transistor, no matter what kind,  it's good practice to use diode protection.  Some call these "free wheeling" diodes and sometimes come integrated in standard Fet components.  Almost all loads can exhibit inductive characteristics, even Capacitors.  There's one across the charge Cap also.  It's just protection and has nothing to do with the 'water spark plug' or plasma effect.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 20, 2008, 10:52:46 AM
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the explanation. So, the coil being inductive, when the triac is on, the coil's magnetic field is at its expanded state in one direction and the diode is not conducting. But when the triac turns off, the magnetic field collapses and induces a voltage across the coil in the opposite direction but faster if un-impeded. But because the polarity of the induced voltage now places the diode into its conducting mode impedes the speed of collapse and maybe prolongs this condition?

Also, I think that by being a CDI, at the moment the triac turns on, the high voltage at the secondary spikes very fast and very high, much faster than the one induced by the collapse.

Sorry if I am inquisitive. I just want to have a better understanding when I build one like it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 20, 2008, 02:17:40 PM
All,

My small power inverter is taking shape now. I have changed the oscillator frequency to approx. 1000 Hz.
I have added a input filter and also a output filter as shown in the drawing. The output filter is a voltage
depended resistor(VDR). This resistor will take "off" the highest spikes from the AC and regulate the
output to 355 Volt AC. The VDR will also double up as a protection if any "nasty" high voltage spikes
leak into the inverter. My load for testing is a 230VAC 25 Watt light bulb. The light bulb is glowing
ultra bright due to the higher voltage output. I estimate the load to be close to 27,7 Watt. The inverter
is using 2,89 Ampere at 11,1 Volt = 32 Watt. So the inverter itself is only "spending" 4,4 Watt as heat.
This is equal to 86,4% effectiveness. Not so bad for a simple inverter as this. The inverter uses 0,1 Ampere
at 13,6 Volt = 1,36 Watt when there is no load at the output. This is very low compared to the ready
bought inverters. I have not tried a maximum load on the inverter yet but estimate the inverter will
survive up to a 40 Watt load on the output. Next test will be a duration test with a smaller load.

[EDIT 1] Do NOT run the inverter without a load. The transistors will blow due to over voltage!
            (Found out the hard way! Has to change my transistors to better types.)

[EDIT 2] It seems that both transistors are OK. I think I blew the 4047 IC. Maybe I need some
             protection diodes on the transistor gate?

[EDIT 3] The 4047 IC can only source or sink 10mA at maximum so I changed the gate driver resistors to 1K.
             
Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 20, 2008, 04:33:15 PM
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the explanation. So, the coil being inductive, when the triac is on, the coil's magnetic field is at its expanded state in one direction and the diode is not conducting. But when the triac turns off, the magnetic field collapses and induces a voltage across the coil in the opposite direction but faster if un-impeded. But because the polarity of the induced voltage now places the diode into its conducting mode impedes the speed of collapse and maybe prolongs this condition?

Also, I think that by being a CDI, at the moment the triac turns on, the high voltage at the secondary spikes very fast and very high, much faster than the one induced by the collapse.

Sorry if I am inquisitive. I just want to have a better understanding when I build one like it.

Hello insane4evr,

I am glad you asked.  It's better to ask than assume these diodes are somehow part of the plasma effect.  If you don't use them then I guarantee you'll have a plasma effect of an undesirable kind ... and a lot of smelly smoke too.

Sincerely,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 20, 2008, 10:44:02 PM
HI all,

Here is the parts list for the plasma CDI I built:

4 ea. non resistor spark plugs
1 ea. 47uf x 450 V cap
1 ea. 470 uf x 450 V cap
1 ea. 12 ohm x 50 watt resistor
1 ea. 3k ohm x 1/4 watt resistor
2 ea. power Mosfet w/driver
1 ea. FWB rectifier
1 ea.  1:1 x 150 VA isolation transformer
1 ea. 400 watt 115VAC inverter
12 ea. HV Replacement Microwave diodes
2 ea. 1000V x 3A ultra fast recovery diodes
1 ea. standard automotive coil
1 ea. modification to make the distributor points act like a SPDT switch.
1 ea. fuse holder
1 ea. 1A fuse

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on September 21, 2008, 02:33:29 AM
Thank you for posting the parts list. I now see I've missed a part and will order it. Again  ;D Thanks very much Greg.
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 21, 2008, 03:07:34 AM
Thank you for posting the parts list. I now see I've missed a part and will order it. Again  ;D Thanks very much Greg.
Mike

Hi,

Which one did you miss?  I want to make sure I listed everything correctly.  It's hard to edit your own work.  The fuse is not in the diagrams.  Thanks.

Again, you can use long strings of inexpensive diodes instead of the hideously expensive HV ones.

Best wishes,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 21, 2008, 08:06:49 AM
@Gotoluc,

Thanks to you and everyone for the great work.....

On the nexus circuit, the only correction needed would be on the cap is it AC or DC ?


Regards,

HV

Hi happyvalley808,

yes we still needs to be confirmed that. I would not think it matters that much as long as the polarity of a dc cap is in the correct direction.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 21, 2008, 09:31:26 AM
@gotoluc,

One other issue.

Is the ignition voltage from the high coil, negative or positive on modern CDI driven cars?

We know for a fact that the voltage is negative on Bill's WW car.
( That car uses mechanical contacts for the ignition coil. )

Does anybody has some information on this?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on September 21, 2008, 06:06:05 PM
Hi,

Which one did you miss?  I want to make sure I listed everything correctly.  It's hard to edit your own work.  The fuse is not in the diagrams.  Thanks.

Again, you can use long strings of inexpensive diodes instead of the hideously expensive HV ones.

Best wishes,

Greg




It was an oversight on my part. After writing down all the parts from the diagram then checking it against your list, I missed the 3k ohm resistor. I knew I saw it in the diagram, just failed the list it. I will be using the long string of diodes.
Thanks again
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 21, 2008, 09:04:58 PM
@gotoluc,

One other issue.

Is the ignition voltage from the high coil, negative or positive on modern CDI driven cars?

We know for a fact that the voltage is negative on Bill's WW car.
( That car uses mechanical contacts for the ignition coil. )

Does anybody has some information on this?

Groundloop.

Here is what I can share, probably not CDI but HEI, not sure and I am not going to open and reverse engineer the ignition module:

Taken with 475 Tek scope (probe capacitively coupled with 3 turns wire wrapped on insulated ignition wire).

1994 Toyota Pickup, 4 Cyl. 22R-E engine:
 Negative ~1.5 ms duration

2001 Ford Escape XLS, 4 Cyl. engine:
Negative
At idle: Double spark ~2.8 ms apart, ~1.5 ms duration
At ~2250 RPM and higher: Single spark, ~1.5 ms duration ( Not sure if RPM calculation is correct. Duration between single spark from one cylinder of the 4 cylinder engine is 42.5 milliseconds. Please check)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 21, 2008, 09:41:12 PM
@insane4evr,

Thanks for doing the measurements.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 21, 2008, 09:59:30 PM
@insane4evr,

Thanks for doing the measurements.

Groundloop.


NP.

But maybe I got my RPM wrong for the Ford.  ???

Duration between sparks for a single cylinder when it switched to single is 42.5 millseconds. Please check my calculation for a 4 cyclinder engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 21, 2008, 10:29:22 PM
@insane4evr,

Single cylinder spark duration:

t = 42,5mS = 0,0435S     f = 1 / t so 1 / 0,0435 = 22,99    RPM = f * 60 = 1379,31

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 21, 2008, 11:18:33 PM
@ Groundloop,

Thanks.
So, does that mean that for a 4-cylinder engine, the RPM of the distributor is the same as the main shaft?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 22, 2008, 12:17:58 AM
@insane4evr,

I'm more of a electronic guy than a engine mechanic but I assume
that every piston has to be moved to TDC for each revolution on the engine?

But since this is a four stroke engine then only one of the pistons will
be ready to fire for each engine revolution. So we will need a firing sequence
of 1324 or something like that. Then you will get one power stokes for each
revolution and will need one sparks also.

So I guess the distributor is geared down 2:1 from crankshaft.

I'm guessing a lot here, you really must ask someone familiar with car engines. :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 22, 2008, 02:48:43 AM
Hi all,

I'd just like to post my progress.  I have sent away for some very slick magnetic switches that are meant for VW ignition conversion.  The kit has a rotor with some magnets on it and and this switch.  I'll need one rotor and two of these switches to form a SPDT switch in the distributor housing.  For now I'm making the stock distributor do this.  The photos below show the stock distributor/points and some modified ignition parts.  The modified one is not finished but I'll explain my plans.  I posted both stock and modified for comparison. 

The stock points breaker arm (riding on the cam lobes) will be the common pole of the SPDT switch.  Each of the phenolic blocks will have a springy phosphor-bronze leaf contact and each with separate wires leading out of the housing ... including the common wire ... no condenser.  So the common will contact one leaf contact or the other ... not both.   Timing and vacuum advance stay intact.  That's it for what it takes to run the Plasma CDI design I'm building. 

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/stock.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/spdt.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on September 22, 2008, 05:11:50 AM
@ Groundloop,

Thanks.
So, does that mean that for a 4-cylinder engine, the RPM of the distributor is the same as the main shaft?

The distributor is connected to the camshaft, usually by meshing of gears. The crankshaft is connected to the camshaft, usually with gears and a chain or belt of some kind. The crankshaft turns 2 times to every 1 time of the camshaft, in your typical IC engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 22, 2008, 05:22:57 AM
@Groundloop and michaelpaul,

Thanks. So, in a 4-stroke engine, if the repetition rate of a spark of one cylinder is every 42.5 milliseconds, then:

F=1/T = 1/.0425 = 23.529 Hz or rps.
23.529 x 60 = 1411 distributor RPM
1411 x 2 = 2822 crankshaft RPM. Correct? I hope I am learning thus stuff. :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on September 22, 2008, 04:59:25 PM
@Groundloop and michaelpaul,

Thanks. So, in a 4-stroke engine, if the repetition rate of a spark of one cylinder is every 42.5 milliseconds, then:

F=1/T = 1/.0425 = 23.529 Hz or rps.
23.529 x 60 = 1411 distributor RPM
1411 x 2 = 2822 crankshaft RPM. Correct? I hope I am learning thus stuff. :)

Your math is correct.
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: apcwzrd on September 22, 2008, 11:00:25 PM
I have remade the Nexus diagram as requested by Luc with the changes

adding every single diode made the image far too complex so its just image and description changes

the blank area on the left may be large enough for a parts list when we get the info

@Luc

please delete the image if anything is incorrect... I wasn't sure about the half wave bridge rectifier as on the original it said 3 to 5 1N5408 but you mentioned 4 diodes in series so I drew the diodes in the same direction as on the original and drew the diodes like the others to show them in series

EDIT: changed font error and size of image

Been watching from the sidelines but felt the need to jump in and ask some questions regarding Bill's Nexus circuit.

1. If the output from the MOT is connected to engine ground, and engine ground is connected to the minus terminal of the battery - are they not the same electrical potential? Why does bill say to connect the capacitor to minus battery terminal and NOT the output of the MOT. It seems to me that the circuit would work either way. What am I missing here?

2. The inverter is marked NEU and HOT on the output. Since the output is an AC voltage how do the terms NEU and HOT apply?

My cousin and I created the nexus circuit and tried it on one plug removed from my 1996 Geo Metro  - just as Bill demonstrated in his video. With the engine running and the 400 watt inverter turned off there was no spark at the plug. When I removed the DC connection (60 1N5408's) then the HV spark showed up. That should have been my first clue. I connected the 120V DC back to the plug and turned the Inverter on.....Instant smoke! I am now a member of the fried inverter club :-\

I will try the simple dual LED trick posted earlier to determine whether I have a negative or positive HV spike and connect the diodes accordingly. I believe this is a crucial step in getting the Nexus circuit to work - and to keep from frying inverters!

Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 22, 2008, 11:57:58 PM
Hi everyone,

I started a new topic and ask if you can please have a look: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5621.msg127695.html#msg127695

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 23, 2008, 04:39:40 AM
Hi everyone,

I've completed the design and testing of a twin Hall effect control for the CDI system I've built. The diagram shows looking down into the distributor with cap and rotor removed. It's somewhat pictorial. One hall effect sensor is for the charge pulse and the other is for the discharge pulse. The 2.2k ohm resistors play a dual role. First, each acts as a pull-up resistor. When one of the magnets (little squares on the rotor) passes by the sensor, the 'minus' wire from the sensor goes to high impedance and the 2.2k resistor yanks the 'plus' side of the Mosfet opto up and turning the Mosfet "on". When the window has passed, the sensor yanks it to ground and the Mosfet is turned "off" again. The other purpose of the 2.2k resistor is as a current limiter for the Mosfet's opto. circuitry.

This can also be accomplished with just one sensor but would require a "break before make" inverted signal for the opposite circuit. It's easier to add a sensor and resistor than it is to design, build and troubleshoot a circuit ... for me anyway.

Peace,

Greg
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/compufire.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 23, 2008, 06:05:48 AM
@apcwzrd,

I fully agree, the battery minus and the engine ground is the same.

Another way to test the ignition voltage polarity is to first use one diode string connected to one spark plug.
Then you put the end of the diode string near the engine ground. If a spark is jumping from the diode
string then the diode string is the wrong way around.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 23, 2008, 06:23:10 AM
@Groundloop,

I'm going to build your high voltage polarity tester, just wondering if you have tried this ....

Regards,

 HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: apcwzrd on September 23, 2008, 06:33:25 AM
@apcwzrd,

I fully agree, the battery minus and the engine ground is the same.

Another way to test the ignition voltage polarity is to first use one diode string connected to one spark plug.
Then you put the end of the diode string near the engine ground. If a spark is jumping from the diode
string then the diode string is the wrong way around.

Groundloop.

Groundloop

Thanks for the verification and a super simple way to test whether the diodes are oriented correctly. I will try it tomorrow. Funny how the simplest solutions work the best.

Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on September 23, 2008, 06:59:19 AM
Been watching from the sidelines but felt the need to jump in and ask some questions regarding Bill's Nexus circuit.

1. If the output from the MOT is connected to engine ground, and engine ground is connected to the minus terminal of the battery - are they not the same electrical potential? Why does bill say to connect the capacitor to minus battery terminal and NOT the output of the MOT. It seems to me that the circuit would work either way. What am I missing here?

2. The inverter is marked NEU and HOT on the output. Since the output is an AC voltage how do the terms NEU and HOT apply?

My cousin and I created the nexus circuit and tried it on one plug removed from my 1996 Geo Metro  - just as Bill demonstrated in his video. With the engine running and the 400 watt inverter turned off there was no spark at the plug. When I removed the DC connection (60 1N5408's) then the HV spark showed up. That should have been my first clue. I connected the 120V DC back to the plug and turned the Inverter on.....Instant smoke! I am now a member of the fried inverter club :-\

I will try the simple dual LED trick posted earlier to determine whether I have a negative or positive HV spike and connect the diodes accordingly. I believe this is a crucial step in getting the Nexus circuit to work - and to keep from frying inverters!

Cheers,
Tom

Be sure that your inverter is (insulated) not grounded to the body or it could short circuit.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 23, 2008, 08:25:24 AM
@happyvalley808,

I have tried capacitive pickup for ignition coil cable driving the led in a opto coupler so I know
the method will work but I have not tried the simple led tester yet.

There is a easy way to test this, see post above.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 23, 2008, 08:33:23 AM
@bwb,

I fully agree. Be careful with high voltage.

Another issue is water and humidity. Ready bought inverters (most of them) uses a fan for cooling.

If you mount the inverter in the engine compartment then your in trouble. One engine wash
and you inverter is ruined. If you put the inverter into a plastic box (fully closed) then your
also in trouble, no air flow for the fan cooling.

The main reason for building my own inverter:

The output voltage can be designed to suit my voltage needs.
The inverter uses no fan and can be water resistant.
The inverter is fully insulated by the use of a output transformer.

Attached is my newest inverter version. Still testing the inverter but it is beginning to work OK now.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: apcwzrd on September 23, 2008, 11:50:29 AM
Be sure that your inverter is (insulated) not grounded to the body or it could short circuit.

BWB

Yes, the inverter as well as all of the additional components were mounted on a piece of 3/4" plywood which worked very well. I just had the HV diode protection string wired backwards. Next try will be a winner!

Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on September 23, 2008, 06:07:56 PM
@apcwzrd

Hello, I don't think I've posted here before, mostly on energetic forum. When I got to the point of testing the Nexus circuit for correct operation yesterday, I flipped on the inverter with the engine running, and It FRIED!! Just as yours did. So, I figured diodes were in the wrong direction. Changed them to face oposite direction, flipped on the NEW inverter, and FRIED it too!!! I have tried all kinds of configurations to get this circuit to work, so far, NO LUCK! I even tried the way Wilber said he got it to work, with a full wave bridge instead of half wave. Red light instantly came on for inverter, I shut it off quick enough to keep it from frying.........that time. I agree with you about the "Neutral" and "Hot" outputs from the inverter. Whichever lead you put the half-wave rectifier into, becomes readable as DC neg between the two leads with a meter. Then you're supposed to hook the +pos lead from there to the engine block? On the original schematic posted by Mr. Bill, the diode array direction lets the HV+ from the spark plug end feed straight through the diodes back to the inverter. I had a digital meter on the table close to the inverter, not hooked to anything, and it was going nuts with the engine running and inverter off. On one occassion, just running the engine lit up the green "power" LED on the inverter.......the inverter was NOT turned on! Even if he used reverse-bias diodes and I used forward-bias, changing the direction would fix the problem.........and it hasn't thus far. I now have a total of 6 inverters under my belt, but only 2 are from this circuit, the cost of inverters is starting to add up! If we can figure out the problem SOON, it would be wonderful to use this "simple piggy-back" system. If not, I'm just going to build the "gmeast circuit", I like it very well just a little more complicated to hook up to a V-8.

BTW, has anyone heard ANYTHING further from Mr. Bill regarding how to actually make this circuit work?

@everyone

Keep up all the good work and testing. We will get there eventually!!!

Mike.............................Naples, Florida
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 23, 2008, 06:10:29 PM
Hi everyone,

I've completed the design and testing of a twin Hall effect control for the CDI system I've built. The diagram shows looking down into the distributor with cap and rotor removed. It's somewhat pictorial. One hall effect sensor is for the charge pulse and the other is for the discharge pulse. The 2.2k ohm resistors play a dual role. First, each acts as a pull-up resistor. When one of the magnets (little squares on the rotor) passes by the sensor, the 'minus' wire from the sensor goes to high impedance and the 2.2k resistor yanks the 'plus' side of the Mosfet opto up and turning the Mosfet "on". When the window has passed, the sensor yanks it to ground and the Mosfet is turned "off" again. The other purpose of the 2.2k resistor is as a current limiter for the Mosfet's opto. circuitry.

This can also be accomplished with just one sensor but would require a "break before make" inverted signal for the opposite circuit. It's easier to add a sensor and resistor than it is to design, build and troubleshoot a circuit ... for me anyway.

Peace,

Greg
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/compufire.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distrib2.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on September 23, 2008, 06:19:11 PM
@gmeast

Thanks for posting your latest schematics, YOU THE MAN!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 23, 2008, 07:56:30 PM
@gmeast

Thanks for posting your latest schematics, YOU THE MAN!!!

Hi,

Your welcome.  The first diagram of the distributor serves the function of the SPDT switch represented in the lower left of the second diagram.  This might clear up some things if it was confusing.  Or is it confusing now?

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on September 23, 2008, 08:46:08 PM
@Greg

Thank you, and no it's not at all confusing now. The only request I have is, could you briefly touch on how and what type isolation transformer you are using? What role does it play exactly, and since I don't CURRENTLY have one, could this keep me from frying inverters on a daily basis. Sorry for asking if you have already answered these questions somewhere else.

Later.....................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nyloncylon on September 24, 2008, 12:09:16 AM
@groundloop

You use the LSI-100T transformer in your circuit. See they sell them in audio component shops. I found two similar looking transformers in my basement, but there are no markings on them except: "Inter technik 6,8mH 3,0ø. The copper wire is probably 3mm(?). This beast could crush a toe or two if dropped!
Can i use this instead of the LSI-100T in a 230v ac setup?

NC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: infringer on September 24, 2008, 01:41:17 AM
whew I'll give you a dollar plus shipping for them transformers lol!!!

I hear tell they are worth a mint in copper scrap price...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on September 24, 2008, 02:06:16 AM
My 2 cents - re:fried inverters.......it might be worth using 120V AC rectified as your test bench and iron out the bugs first. This at least will also allow us to provide as much or as little power as needed, then once we have the bugs out, implement using an inverter. It is possible we need more than 300 Watts - using rectified mains AC will allow us to dial up what we need and test.

Has anyone tried delivering say 500 Watts per plug to see the effect?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 24, 2008, 05:58:57 AM
@Greg

Thank you, and no it's not at all confusing now. The only request I have is, could you briefly touch on how and what type isolation transformer you are using? What role does it play exactly, and since I don't CURRENTLY have one, could this keep me from frying inverters on a daily basis. Sorry for asking if you have already answered these questions somewhere else.

Later.....................Mike

Hi Mike,

The isolation transformer disassociates commons and hots and such electrically so that you can tie them the way you want them.  In the CDI circuit, it allows me to tie battery(chasis) minus, and the HV rectifier minus together, switch on the minus side of the CDI Cap and Coil and also tie all of the plus sides of everything (CDI Cap, Storage Cap, Coil, and HV)  together as a common without worrying what the inverter is doing.  Besides eliminating grounding conflicts with the inverter, it further isolates the plasma effect from the CDI Cap switching to prevent cross coupling or cross fire.  I don't know how an isolation transformer could be applied to a Nexus circuit, but I suggested that one be used to help isolate the inverters from ground conflicts.  Usually when you hear one of those inverters squealing then self destructing it's usually a severe ground fault.

The isolation transformer I'm using is a 150VA 115VAC - 115VAC plugged right into the inverter.  The inverter is a 400 watt modified sine wave inverter.  Usually if you want to run a transformer on an inverter you choose a transformer with 1/2 or less of the power rating of the inverter.  I got it out of McMaster-Carr. p/n 70245K71

Also try the suggestion from another member who suggested to use utility power until you have your conflict straightened out.  It's allot cheaper than investing in an inverter company.

Phew! hope this helps.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 24, 2008, 06:16:51 AM
@nyloncylon,

I have decided to use my 10mH coil because that is what I have. Bill said he needed to reduce
the current so that the spark plugs do not burn together. I guess that any coil of some size will
do. I have NOT tested the circuit on my car yet so it is hard to say exactly what size coil is needed.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 24, 2008, 06:27:45 AM
My 2 cents - re:fried inverters.......it might be worth using 120V AC rectified as your test bench and iron out the bugs first. This at least will also allow us to provide as much or as little power as needed, then once we have the bugs out, implement using an inverter. It is possible we need more than 300 Watts - using rectified mains AC will allow us to dial up what we need and test.

Has anyone tried delivering say 500 Watts per plug to see the effect?


Yes, correct plasmastudent77, please everyone!!!... do not use your inverter to test a new circuit. I have said this many times before, just use a minimum 10 amp full wave bridge plugged in the AC grid and test your circuit with that first. Once you know for sure it's all working then instead of getting a really long extension cord to drive around use an inverter.


Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 24, 2008, 03:51:45 PM
Hi all,

Just posting some pics.  The first photo shows my VW distributor having the stock points removed and replaced by two hall sensors ... one for the CDI CAP charge pulse and the other for the CDI Cap discharge pulse.  The second photo shows the magnetic rotor in place on the rotor shaft and overhanging the sensors.  The last photo is a scope capture showing the complimentary signals produced by the sensors and rotor. 

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/2hall.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/rot2hall.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/compl.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 24, 2008, 04:50:56 PM
@gmeast,
Nice work. I notice that every other pulse is wider than the other. Will it affect timing uniformity of each cylinder firing?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on September 24, 2008, 04:58:50 PM
Thanks Greg,

    I understand the isolation transformer alot better after reading your description. I have definitely got to get one. I like the idea though of using grid power to get everything working correctly before hooking up an inverter. Should knock down the number of fried inverters for sure! I've used power from the wall a few times to test circuits, but I didn't know if I was in a safe range of operation as far as the 12V + and - of the battery tying into the coil and relays and such. I guess if something happened it would just trip the breaker in the panel. You're right, much easier to reset the breaker than replace the inverters, cheaper too! As for the Nexus circuit.......Wilber said he made it work using a full-wave bridge instead of half-wave that Mr. Bill used. Using a FWB, if it in fact works, should then allow the use of the isolation transformer from the inverter. The MOT should still be able to have one leg fed through it to "bias the current", as Mr. Bill puts it, to keep from welding the spark plug ends together. The isolation transformer could very well solve the entire problem for everyone! Testing will show, as soon as I get one. I'll post as soon as I find out.

BTW, that is a nice looking distributor you got there! I'm sure it will work as good as it looks and it will be smooth sailing for you in operation. I know you will keep us updated, and we all appreciate that for sure. Later......................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 24, 2008, 07:26:37 PM
Thanks Greg,

    I understand the isolation transformer alot better after reading your description. I have definitely got to get one. I like the idea though of using grid power to get everything working correctly before hooking up an inverter. Should knock down the number of fried inverters for sure! I've used power from the wall a few times to test circuits, but I didn't know if I was in a safe range of operation as far as the 12V + and - of the battery tying into the coil and relays and such. I guess if something happened it would just trip the breaker in the panel. You're right, much easier to reset the breaker than replace the inverters, cheaper too! As for the Nexus circuit.......Wilber said he made it work using a full-wave bridge instead of half-wave that Mr. Bill used. Using a FWB, if it in fact works, should then allow the use of the isolation transformer from the inverter. The MOT should still be able to have one leg fed through it to "bias the current", as Mr. Bill puts it, to keep from welding the spark plug ends together. The isolation transformer could very well solve the entire problem for everyone! Testing will show, as soon as I get one. I'll post as soon as I find out.

BTW, that is a nice looking distributor you got there! I'm sure it will work as good as it looks and it will be smooth sailing for you in operation. I know you will keep us updated, and we all appreciate that for sure. Later......................Mike

IHi Mike,

Remember that the grid is taking the place of the inverter.  So if you're going to used an isolation transformer then plug the transformer into the grid and your circuits into it.  This does not mean you won't fry the transformer if your circuit is incorrect.  These transformers cost $70.00 but it also allows you to hook a o'scope up to the circuit without frying the scope via ground conflicts.

Please be careful.  Later,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 24, 2008, 07:32:06 PM
@gmeast,
Nice work. I notice that every other pulse is wider than the other. Will it affect timing uniformity of each cylinder firing?

Hi insane4ev,

Thanks for your comment.  The positive going pulses are the "on pulses" for each sensor.  the "off" time being longer is because I was turning the distributor on the bench by hand.  The leading edges all rise uniformly with regard to timing ... the duration can change.  The most important thing is that they don't fire at the same time.  If that happens then I pop my 1A fuse.  I am hoping that the pulse is long enough for the charge time ... I think it will be ok ...if not then I'll go mechanical ...like I started to do.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on September 24, 2008, 08:18:50 PM
@Greg

    I probably should just use the grid for power then, until I get the circuit to function correctly. Would I have any protection by putting a fuse between the FWB and the isolation transformer? I don't know what to really think about this Nexus circuit, but I will try a little longer to make it work. If I can't get it, I will most likely just order all the stuff I need to build your circuit instead.

Later.......................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 24, 2008, 08:40:44 PM
@Greg

    I probably should just use the grid for power then, until I get the circuit to function correctly. Would I have any protection by putting a fuse between the FWB and the isolation transformer? I don't know what to really think about this Nexus circuit, but I will try a little longer to make it work. If I can't get it, I will most likely just order all the stuff I need to build your circuit instead.

Later.......................................Mike

Hi Mike,

Absolutely.  I have a 1A fuse in the AC line between the Transformer and the FWB.  This limits the amount of current the Transformer can draw thereby protecting the Transformer.  1A may not be sufficient for the Nexus though.  I have not tried building it.  I've been concentrating on the original Gotoluc - Lindemann circuit.   Fuses are cheap.

Best,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 24, 2008, 10:26:22 PM
All,

I'm one step closer to try out the plasma ignition circuit in my car. Today I finally
got the inverter done. I have tested the inverter on two different toroid transformers.
A 18V + 18V to 230V transformer will give out 117VAC with a 25 Watt load. This is close
to the 110 VAC used in some countries. When I run the inverter on a 9V + 9V to 230V
transformer then I get 218 VAC with a 25 Watt load.
The inverter frequency is approx. 1000Hz. The input filter is performing well and there is
little noise on the 12 VDC input lines. Attached is the final inverter drawing.

[EDIT] Attached a image of the inverter output.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 25, 2008, 12:55:11 AM
All,

I'm one step closer to try out the plasma ignition circuit in my car. Today I finally
got the inverter done. I have tested the inverter on two different toroid transformers.
A 18V + 18V to 230V transformer will give out 117VAC with a 25 Watt load. This is close
to the 110 VAC used in some countries. When I run the inverter on a 9V + 9V to 230V
transformer then I get 218 VAC with a 25 Watt load.
The inverter frequency is approx. 1000Hz. The input filter is performing well and there is
little noise on the 12 VDC input lines. Attached is the final inverter drawing.

[EDIT] Attached a image of the inverter output.

Groundloop.


Hi Groundloop,

Can the circuit be switched on and off so it could be used as an active charge component in a CDI system?

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: terence on September 25, 2008, 05:49:11 AM
Hi all,

Very interesting topic!Hope to started soon. I'm in the process of collecting parts.

A question though: I read all those people frying inverters, I was wondering, the alternator makes full wave sinus (before rectifying). Isn't it possible to take this wave and step up the voltage with an extra transformer?

Terence


New and reading!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on September 25, 2008, 05:58:43 AM
Hi all,

Very interesting topic!Hope to started soon. I'm in the process of collecting parts.

A question though: I read all those people frying inverters, I was wondering, the alternator makes full wave sinus (before rectifying). Isn't it possible to take this wave and step up the voltage with an extra transformer?

Terence


New and reading!


That made me think of something crazy. What if the HV pulse would go into another ignition coil to produce an even higher HV pulse. That could fry things big time.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 25, 2008, 07:01:37 AM
@gmeast,

I initially designed the inverter to be on/off controlled but limitations inside the 4047 IC made it
impossible to do that. That said, the inverter can still be used as an active charge component in a CDI system.
The inverter frequency is high (approx. 1000Hz) and the output voltage (and max. current) can be changed
by using a different transformer (voltage ratio and size).

Attached is the drawing of my CDI circuit. The CDI system itself is switchable by using a opto coupler controlling the SCR.

I see no problem using this inverter in your circuit If you want a high frequency inverter.
This inverter will eliminate the use of a insulation transformer since it already has an transformer on the output.

[Edit] The components R13, R15, D5, C8 and J8 is not needed for CDI operation. I just need those components
         in my setup so that I can monitor the CDI voltage with my microcontroller.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 25, 2008, 09:26:17 AM
Hi Groundloop,

Can the circuit be switched on and off so it could be used as an active charge component in a CDI system?

Greg
One way I can think of is to add an analog mux chip between the 4047 outputs and the gates of the mosfets.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 25, 2008, 04:10:58 PM
@insane4evr,

Yes, and also two NAND gates will do. By using NAND gates we ensure
that both transistor gates will be low when not triggered. The two NAND gates
can be triggered from a opto coupler etc.

But do we really need to switch of the inverter? The stand by usage is less than 4 Watt.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 25, 2008, 04:38:30 PM
@insane4evr,

Yes, and also two NAND gates will do. By using NAND gates we ensure
that both transistor gates will be low when not triggered. The two NAND gates
can be triggered from a opto coupler etc.

But do we really need to switch of the inverter? The stand by usage is less than 4 Watt.

Groundloop.
You are probably right on the low standby power. I am just answering gmeast's question.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on September 25, 2008, 09:59:53 PM
FYI: Page 5 of this thread......

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108905.html#msg108905

just add a cap (and MOT, if you want)....LOL

Things always come full circle........

want more DC volts?

(http://designstudioexpress.com/simple_setup_rev3.png)

Sorry to be a bother but could you enlarge the picture or post a parts list?
I can make out the part numbers in the image.

Thank you
DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 25, 2008, 10:21:26 PM


The capacitors in the voltage doubler are 250v 33uf, the two diodes are 1N4007.....

The large capacitor is 400v 330uf.....

I'm using the voltage doubler with 10uf 250v caps and it works great....

HV,
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 25, 2008, 11:34:12 PM
Hi all,

Just some more pics.  The first photo is of the module made with a bunch of store bought parts - as is.  The next photo is my VW's engine compartment showing the 3 mounting studs sticking out of the compartment wall.  The third photo is of the module test-mounted to check for stuff hitting stuff, etc.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/module.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/compart.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/install.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 25, 2008, 11:59:38 PM
@gmeast,

Really nice work, it looks great.... I can't wait to see her running!!!

Is your VW an every day car or project vehicle ?

Aloha, 

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on September 26, 2008, 12:03:38 AM
I second the above post, please keep us updated. This might sound funny, but are you planning to put a switch near the dashboard inorder to switch between plasma spark and regular spark so you can test it while driving and what not? Or can this become difficult?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 26, 2008, 12:04:50 AM
@gmeast,

Really nice work, it looks great.... I can't wait to see her running!!!

Is your VW an every day car or project vehicle ?

Aloha, 

HV

Hi HV,

ha ... it's an every day project vehicle ... tee hee.  I only want to run it on the dual hall sensor distributor I built then its out of the VW and onto my generator for the water for fuel research.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 26, 2008, 12:18:33 AM
@gmeast,

Do you plan on firing that baby up soon ?

What type of generator ?


HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 26, 2008, 12:34:27 AM
I second the above post, please keep us updated. This might sound funny, but are you planning to put a switch near the dashboard inorder to switch between plasma spark and regular spark so you can test it while driving and what not? Or can this become difficult?

Hi broli,

It's not funny at all.  In this particular circuit, all of the 'plasma' diodes 'common' at one end and that common is on the CDI 'plus' on the coil.  A switch unhooking the 'plasma diode' array at this common 'plus' does the job.  So it is painfully easy to do .. especially with this circuit.  Since I want to keep wire lengths as short as possible, I can use an automotive relay for this purpose and put the "on-off" switch on the dash (thinking out loud).  Great Idea broli.  Thanks!

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 26, 2008, 01:15:14 AM
@gmeast,

Do you plan on firing that baby up soon ?

What type of generator ?


HV

Hi HV,

Hopefully I'll fire it up this weekend.  I did the distributor two days ago ... earlier post.  The circuit was originally built for test on a Briggs abd Stratton 5300VA generator.  I modified the generator-end and put a 1:2 reducer so I could time it and not have the extra spark from the magneto.  Below is a modification of the genset.

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/timing1.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Area 51 on September 26, 2008, 01:21:31 AM
@gmeast,

Really nice work, it looks great.... I can't wait to see her running!!!


It does look great, and I can't wait either.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on September 26, 2008, 03:51:57 PM
I modified the generator-end and put a 1:2 reducer so I could time it and not have the extra spark from the magneto. 

Hi Greg

Where did you buy your gears and what size/how many teeth per gear are they so I can buy a similar set?  I want to make a similar modification to my generator.

My project is to get my generator (10HP engine) to run on a combination of HHO & water.

Thanks
DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 26, 2008, 04:46:24 PM
Hi Greg

Where did you buy your gears and what size/how many teeth per gear are they so I can buy a similar set?  I want to make a similar modification to my generator.

My project is to get my generator (10HP engine) to run on a combination of HHO & water.

Thanks
DonL


Hi DonL,

I purchased the gears for McMaster-Carr:

6325K79    
Steel Plain Bore 14-1/2 Deg Spur Gear 12 Pitch, 15 Teeth, 1.25" Pitch Dia, 5/8" Bore

&
6325K28    
Steel Plain Bore 14-1/2 Deg Spur Gear 12 Pitch, 30 Teeth, 2.5" Pitch Dia, 5/8" Bore

I had to ream the bigger gear for a pair of needle bearings.  I also machined back over 1/2 of the gear face to lighten it and also to make some place to locate and mount a  rotor.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 27, 2008, 03:30:50 AM
Hi everyone,

I have posted a short video showing the final bench testing and demo of the original Gotoluc-Lindemann isolated water spark plug circuit configured for a 4-cylinder engine.

The hardware is ready for installation in a vehicle and I'll be placing it in my '64 VW Bug.  I hope you enjoy the video.
 
The video is located at:
YouTube - final bench test - distributed plasma CDI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz6rbF_4huM)

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 27, 2008, 03:37:59 AM
@gmeast,

That is the most stable plasma ignition i've seen yet....

Great work Greg !!!

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on September 27, 2008, 03:46:00 AM
Greg absolutely brilliant mate, going off to do our video now with the Genset on a the spark and booster,  had to comment and say what an amazing circuit Greg Keep going!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 27, 2008, 05:03:46 AM
I third that Greg ;D

Most excellent stability. Your are way past me now man ;)

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 27, 2008, 06:06:09 AM
I third that Greg ;D

Most excellent stability. Your are way past me now man ;)

Thanks for sharing

Luc

@all,

Thanks everyone for the comments!

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on September 27, 2008, 12:15:05 PM
Guys, shot the video with all the groups research and themes, added all the plasma research thats done already which is neglected and where we want to go with this plus support for the open source enigneers. We were just about to fire up the 5.5HP generator, with a smack and a nexus plasma ignition, and guess what?

The con rod just snapped!! (with out the plasma and booster connected)BANG!! BOOM CRASH!! cheap Chinese aluminum ::) :-X >:(, we had run this on 100% hydroxy before but embrittlement cannot get into the con rod, SO DOH! we couldn't fire it up, so we are now going to Smack the CAR with the plasma ignition should be done next week. Will uses Alex's circuit (groundloops).
Beware of cheap Chinese gensets !! It blew with out the plasma spark or hydroxy, just on its own, a con rod!!  :-X

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 27, 2008, 12:54:17 PM
@gmeast,

Excellent work.  ;D

@All,

Here is a image of a snapped con rod. (For all of us that never has seen a piston.)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on September 27, 2008, 01:00:47 PM
Its an amazing sound, you get no compression or any thing, ours looked like Alex's, except in pieces :D ;D
At least it didnt break with Alex's circuit and the Booster ::)
Cheap Chinese stuff is all i can put it down too  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on September 27, 2008, 01:02:30 PM
Can't that part be bought in stock from some car shop?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on September 27, 2008, 03:48:17 PM
Can't that part be bought in stock from some car shop?

Buying a new piston and rod is easy.
Putting them in is fairly easy.

As long as the cylinder, crankshaft, valves, etc weren't damaged also.
There comes a point where it's just cheaper to replace the motor then replace the parts.
The sum of the parts (price) is larger then the whole (motor price).

I get the feeling that manufacturing companies keep their prices on parts high so you'll just buy another motor which is probably where thier largest markup is.

Just a feeling...  :-\

DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kremlin01 on September 27, 2008, 08:54:54 PM
Gmeast, just watced your video, really impressed, looks like some real clout there.
Best of luck with all your projects.

Regards, Bren.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 28, 2008, 05:51:43 AM
Gmeast, just watced your video, really impressed, looks like some real clout there.
Best of luck with all your projects.

Regards, Bren.

Hi Bren,

Thanks much.  Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 28, 2008, 06:42:40 AM
@All,

I've just tested the polarity of the ignition in my truck using Groundloops high voltage polarity circuit and it worked great.....

This is sooo simple, two leds, two wires and a piece of perf. board....

To all that have fried inverters , use this method it works ........

Thanks Groundloop!!!

Best Regards,      HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 28, 2008, 07:36:54 AM
@happyvalley808,

Thanks. I'm glad it is working.

I also think that Gmeasts idea of using an insulation transformer is important
to avoid burning the inverters. A transformer can take much more "abuse"
than those flimsy HEXFETs used in most small inverters.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on September 28, 2008, 08:04:15 AM
@Groundloop,

I have limited electronics knowledge, do you think a microwave transformer is overkill or do we need one of this size....

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on September 28, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
@happyvalley808,

If you use a 110 VAC inverter and needs approx. 40 Watt then use a 110VAC to 110VAC 40 Watt transformer.
Connect the inverter to one of the transformer pairs, connect plasma circuit to the other pair. (For 230VAC you must use a 230VAC to 230VAC transformer.) You still need a series coil on the plasma circuit! See drawing.

What you are doing is insulating the inverter from the plasma circuit.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on September 28, 2008, 03:53:31 PM
modified circuit

(http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/5b/42/dreamyear44/folder/3/img_3_87_0?1222609346.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on September 28, 2008, 07:14:53 PM
Hi Luc,
Thanks for this find. I am jumping on this sparkplug testing because of yours and others posts, so I also bought one. I hope I get it soon here in usa.
Just got the 12vdc to 240vac inverter I ordered and examined it.

It seems that most of them are basically DC to DC converters. The DC output is converted to modified sine-wave using mosfets as Groundloop says.

Since the plasma circuit rectifies this AC back to DC, I think that you can do away with the rectifier and tap directly to the DC output of the inverter. The output DC section of what I got measures 257 VDC. The one I have has its output isolated from its input and I think most inverters are also isolated.

More work to do.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: 1stCor127 on September 28, 2008, 11:39:27 PM
Hi everyone,

I have posted a short video showing the final bench testing and demo of the original Gotoluc-Lindemann isolated water spark plug circuit configured for a 4-cylinder engine.

The hardware is ready for installation in a vehicle and I'll be placing it in my '64 VW Bug.  I hope you enjoy the video.
 
The video is located at:
YouTube - final bench test - distributed plasma CDI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz6rbF_4huM)

Peace,

Greg

Greg! Excellent work!  I believe we are finally coming to the end.  Had you posted your solid state schematic, or have i just missed it?  Keep up the good work and we'll keep on experimenting on this end and sharing any and all info. 

You are moving up on my "hero list" …move over sir hoax!
 ;)

1stcor
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on September 29, 2008, 04:39:54 AM
Greg! Excellent work!  I believe we are finally coming to the end.  Had you posted your solid state schematic, or have i just missed it?  Keep up the good work and we'll keep on experimenting on this end and sharing any and all info. 

You are moving up on my "hero list" …move over sir hoax!
 ;)

1stcor

Hi 1stCor127,

Thanks for you comments.  You'll find the exact circuit diagrams and photos of the distributor on pages 44 & 45.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on September 29, 2008, 06:01:09 AM
Hi everyone,

a YouTube user: honda4004 posted a comment on my Water Power test 3 video to search for Pistol Shimp on YouTube.

Here are the videos that I found. Very interesting I must say :D

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ONQlTMUYCW4&feature=related

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on October 01, 2008, 03:34:38 PM
Hi everyone,

a YouTube user: honda4004 posted a comment on my Water Power test 3 video to search for Pistol Shimp on YouTube.

Here are the videos that I found. Very interesting I must say :D

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ONQlTMUYCW4&feature=related

Luc

I suggest the following:

http://www.dynaflow-inc.com/Publication/pdf_documents/SV-66-Spark.pdf

http://www.dynaflow-inc.com/Services/BubbleDynamics_files/BubbleDynamics.htm

more here:
http://www.dynaflow-inc.com/Publication/FullTextReports/Fulltext_Bubble_Cav.htm

and then  hydrosonic... sonoluminescence....Griggs Cavitation ecc ecc

Wings
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on October 01, 2008, 06:07:02 PM
HI all,

Here is the parts list for the plasma CDI I built:
...
1 ea.  1:1 x 150 VA isolation transformer
...

Peace,

Greg

Greg

Where did you get your isolation transformer?
I'm seeing prices of $250+ and specifications in kv. ????

Thanks for your work and help on this,
DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 01, 2008, 06:37:33 PM
@happyvalley808,

If you use a 110 VAC inverter and needs approx. 40 Watt then use a 110VAC to 110VAC 40 Watt transformer.
Connect the inverter to one of the transformer pairs, connect plasma circuit to the other pair. (For 230VAC you must use a 230VAC to 230VAC transformer.) You still need a series coil on the plasma circuit! See drawing.

What you are doing is insulating the inverter from the plasma circuit.

Groundloop.

To everyone,

I'm really glad to see isolation transformers being recommended to protect the inverters.  (They also have other advantages in these types of circuits).  But I would like to recommend that you adhere to a practiced engineering rule of thumb regarding power transformers running on a synthesized inverter waveform ... particularly modified sine wave inverters.  Whatever combination you use, try and make sure that your inverter is at least 2X (twice) the power rating of your isolation transformer.  That is, if you are using a 40VA isolation transformer then try and make sure your inverter is at least 80VA or greater.  The inductive load characteristics of a power transformer can 'slam' the square wave of the inverter and you can quickly approach peak inverter loads without knowing it.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 01, 2008, 06:52:07 PM
Greg

Where did you get your isolation transformer?
I'm seeing prices of $250+ and specifications in kv. ????

Thanks for your work and help on this,
DonL


Hi dllabarre,

You must be careful with all of this and I'm sure you are being safe.  I just want to say this.

Try McMaster-Carr.  The exact transformer I am using is:
70245K71      CONTROL TRANSFORMER WITH PLUG & CONNECTOR, 150 VA, 115V INPUT, 115V OUTPUT

@ $70.90

It has a 115VAC plug/jack in/out.  Very convenient.   If you're using 115VAC use a 1A in-line fuse in one of the legs (in or out) ... best in both. 

Now remember in the rating of an isolation transformer, the windings are constructed to produce 150VA @ 115VAC.  So if you're drawing more load, the output voltage will be less than 115VAC and if you are loading it less than 150VA then the output voltage will be higher than 115VAC by a portion of the ratio of YOUR load to that of the rated load for the transformer.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on October 01, 2008, 07:54:47 PM
Hi dllabarre,

Try McMaster-Carr.  The exact transformer I am using is:
70245K71      CONTROL TRANSFORMER WITH PLUG & CONNECTOR, 150 VA, 115V INPUT, 115V OUTPUT

@ $70.90

It has a 115VAC plug/jack in/out.  Very convenient.   If you're using 115VAC use a 1A in-line fuse in one of the legs (in or out) ... best in both. 

Peace,

Greg

Thank you.
Very good information!

The transformer is on it's way.

DonL



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on October 01, 2008, 08:26:03 PM
You can always make an isolation transformer from 2 identical microwave transformers.
Grind off the welds to dismantle them and then place both 120 V windings on one core.
The 2 HV. windings could be placed on the other core to make a second isolation transformer.
This may be much cheaper then buying one, since most microwave ovens get thrown out because
the magnetron burns out but the rest of the parts are still in working order. 
Just make sure you discharge the capacitor before dismantling the oven.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on October 01, 2008, 10:03:42 PM
I suggest the following:

http://www.dynaflow-inc.com/Publication/pdf_documents/SV-66-Spark.pdf

http://www.dynaflow-inc.com/Services/BubbleDynamics_files/BubbleDynamics.htm

more here:
http://www.dynaflow-inc.com/Publication/FullTextReports/Fulltext_Bubble_Cav.htm

and then  hydrosonic... sonoluminescence....Griggs Cavitation ecc ecc

Wings


infoscience.epfl.ch/record/85686/files/PRL%20final.pdf
http://www.truveo.com/tag/cavitation

Wings
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on October 01, 2008, 10:20:59 PM

infoscience.epfl.ch/record/85686/files/PRL%20final.pdf
http://www.truveo.com/tag/cavitation

Wings



http://www.idac.rm.cnr.it/laboratory_files/idac02c.mpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Discharge on October 02, 2008, 03:11:08 AM
All,

I post at EF as "tstorey." I have spent the last three months doing a sub par job of figuring out what the "effect" is.

From endless study of youtubes,  discourse with a dozen different "circuit replicators," still more communication with assorted mechanical engineers and physicists I really don't have much. In a way this is good. It has not been defined which leaves us with some solid "maybes."

The one known area of research that I haven't been able to eliminate is SL. SL, like so many areas of research involving "fusion," is hopelessly riddled with emotion and politics. It is also riddled with complex experiments that have very little to do with Luc's circuit and tap water.

I like the shrimp because they don't need a $14 million dollar funding grant from the defense department to stun some plankton with a bubble.

The effect has been defined as follows. None of this is true because there is no money for measuring equipment.

The discharge travels at about 15,000 mph (10 microseconds) This is pretty quick and maybe the key. This is about the duration speed of a professional photographer's strobe.

The light emission has been inaccurately measured at 40,000 lux which is photographer's language for "photon count." This is very bright.

The sound emission is measured at 120db. Gun shot is about 170 db. Pretty loud for a 1 or 2 mm spark.

Three researchers have encountered measuring device interference..voltmeters, oscilloscopes, ammeters and digital thermometers register nonsense until brought far enough away from the discharge to return to normal.........why? Could it be particle radiation? I do not mean ionizing radiation. This could be an emission from the effect the most obvious being photons. The more energetic the event the more energetic the photon.

Questions:

1) Brilliant 40,000 lux Photon radiation is a marker for gas bubble implosion (“Water Spark plug III”). Significant increase of photon count with addition of water is a marker for H20* bubble implosion(?). (that is right steam bubble vapor implodes too)

2) Shock wave and resulting 120 db sound emission are markers for bubble implosion. Addition of H20 results in amplification of shock wave by 10 X and sound emission by 2X thus a marker for H20* implosion(?).

3) Digital measuring equipment interference is a marker for particle
    radiation(?)/extraordinary EMF.
   
    Particle radiation(?) is a potential marker for ionizing photons as
    measuring equipment is designed to function in the presence of generic EMF
    fields.

4) Full spectrum light emission in the (non H20) water Spark Plug III” is a
   potential marker for bubble collapse. Violet to blue to full spectrum light emission
   in WSP IV is a possible marker for atomic Hydrogen in LDE.

5) Potential instant dissociation of 65 degree F  tap water into atomic hydrogen
    would be a marker for implosion temperatures.

 6) The amount of voltage and the size of the spark is out of balance with “sizes”
     of the shock wave, sound emission, photon count and possible H20 dissociative
     properties of the effect. This suggests that sonoluminesence (bubble implosion)
     may explain some of  the discharge's observed effects.

The ability of the discharge to utilize water through possible dissociation during the effect might be a marker for implosion temperatures. Energy input and effect's “size” seems inadequate to confirm electrolysis which would yield an, as yet unobservable, “combustible hydrogen gas (HHO).” .

It would be of interest to observe the effect in a pressurized/contained environment as all effect components in current test configurations are subject to rapid dissipation.

It is also observed that the effect itself is quite “small” potentially suggesting that only, relatively small amounts of hydrogen are involved if, indeed, any is involved at all.

Fusion is not yet disproved. I know we all hope this might be the fusion of atomic hydrogen into Helium and H2 or whatever and the release of energy from same.

Augmentation of the effect with the addition of water is a key point. SL research has indicated that a temperature drop can increase the photon count. Water sprayed on a spark assuredly drops the temperature of the spark and in this effect the spark gets brighter.

I prefer that the H20 is dissociated into H of one form or another, but, maybe it is cooling the trodes and booting up the photon count.

Doesn't really matter. Both could still be about fusion.

Discharge hits the atmosphere at 15,000 mph and gas bubbles accelerate into small bubble clusters that begin to implode thus increasing heat and pressure on remaining bubbles. This "bubble world" is referred by science as a "fusion opportunity." In other words, they don't know what the heck is happening. They just know there is extreme pressure, extreme heat, high particle velocity and the resultant collisions.

The equipment does not get hot.

Any thoughts are welcome, but, measuring equipment would be far more welcome as I have the corner on the uninformed guessing game here.

Best to all, sorry about the book, but, this deserves one.


T


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 02, 2008, 08:06:06 AM


http://www.idac.rm.cnr.it/laboratory_files/idac02c.mpg


Hi wings,

thanks for your interest and for adding all these documents and the video link. I'm not much of a scientific guy but I know many who are in the background reading maybe interested in these.

We also have a new member from the Energetic Forum that has been studying this effect since the beginning. A welcome to user name: Discharge

Please do keep up this important study to ultimately find the best use for this effect.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 02, 2008, 08:13:00 AM
new video at Energetic Tube:

http://www.energetictube.com/play/Vacuum_Radiant_Energy/plasma%20CDI%20in%20vehicle
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 02, 2008, 08:26:55 AM
new video at Energetic Tube:

http://www.energetictube.com/play/Vacuum_Radiant_Energy/plasma%20CDI%20in%20vehicle


Because of the way Energetic Tube processes video, the close ups of the plug appears to be skipping, but in actuality it is not.  Hopefully the YouTube upload will be better.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 02, 2008, 09:41:15 AM
@gmeast,

Great work !! Your sooo close !!!

That old VW sounded new....Have you taken her for a ride???

How many amps or m-amps are being used from the inverter.....

Thanks for sharing your work !!

Regards, 

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on October 02, 2008, 12:33:56 PM
Hi wings,

thanks for your interest and for adding all these documents and the video link. I'm not much of a scientific guy but I know many who are in the background reading maybe interested in these.

We also have a new member from the Energetic Forum that has been studying this effect since the beginning. A welcome to user name: Discharge

Please do keep up this important study to ultimately find the best use for this effect.

Luc

@ Discharge

Roger Stringham probably have explored the cavitation effect ... reentrant jet during bubble collapse... 500Mpa plasma jet speed 30 km/sec

http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/StringhamR/StringhamR.htm

a nice document that can provide some explanation (plasma vortex and plasma pinch effect) is:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StringhamRcavitationb.pdf

wings
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: turbo on October 02, 2008, 12:41:46 PM
Wow that dude is the more heavy shit. :)

Intresting!

Marco.

Hi everyone,

a YouTube user: honda4004 posted a comment on my Water Power test 3 video to search for Pistol Shimp on YouTube.

Here are the videos that I found. Very interesting I must say :D

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ONQlTMUYCW4&feature=related

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 02, 2008, 01:11:39 PM
Because of the way Energetic Tube processes video, the close ups of the plug appears to be skipping, but in actuality it is not.  Hopefully the YouTube upload will be better.

Greg

The YouTube upload is complete ... a little better quality video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fj4LeCnAUQ


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on October 02, 2008, 01:23:33 PM
The YouTube upload is complete ... a little better quality video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fj4LeCnAUQ




that looks nice and smooth , how did it drive?.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on October 02, 2008, 02:05:15 PM
The YouTube upload is complete ... a little better quality video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fj4LeCnAUQ



Nice Job!! The engine seems to run really smooth I hope to see more ICE's running with this spark soon."Including one of mine" ;D
  Gourdy
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 02, 2008, 02:32:20 PM
that looks nice and smooth , how did it drive?.

Very peppy.  Lugging the engine at full throttle it doesn't miss a beat ... you can feel every cylinder fire.  Most importantly, I did not have to choke the engine to warm up.  All engines need a richer mixture to warm up on, but It took right off without hesitation.  This by itself is an unexpected potential fuel savings.  It is very exciting!  Next will be gasoline and alcohol emulsions then experimentation with distilled water.

Thanks for your interest,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 02, 2008, 04:54:02 PM
@gmeast,

This is very exciting development. Finally, a car running with plasma sparks.

Perhaps a before and after driving pictures of the plug electrodes to compare with none plasma spark wear rate will be good to know.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 02, 2008, 05:12:46 PM
Hi all,

I've been posting on  My s1r9a9m9 replication! but for some reason that thread is dead.
What happened to Capacitor70 and Xbox Hacker?
Anyway, I want to show you what I've been working on.

This is my rig...
Explanation by the order of pictures:

1 -» B&S 3,5HP 127cc side valve 1980 engine.
2 -» This engine uses points and condenser ignition.
3 -» HV car coil Lucas sport DLB105.
4 -» The box of the HV coil, and cold beer. 2 VERY important things to keep this project going.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 02, 2008, 05:18:24 PM
@gmeast,

This is very exciting development. Finally, a car running with plasma sparks.

Perhaps a before and after driving pictures of the plug electrodes to compare with none plasma spark wear rate will be good to know.

Good idea!  Me do now.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Area 51 on October 02, 2008, 06:44:38 PM
Very peppy.  Lugging the engine at full throttle it doesn't miss a beat ... you can feel every cylinder fire.  Most importantly, I did not have to choke the engine to warm up.  All engines need a richer mixture to warm up on, but It took right off without hesitation.  This by itself is an unexpected potential fuel savings.  It is very exciting!  Next will be gasoline and alcohol emulsions then experimentation with distilled water.

Thanks for your interest,

Greg

It sounded great, Greg. I wonder what the horsepower increase is? Do you have access to a dyno?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on October 02, 2008, 06:56:16 PM
Very peppy.  Lugging the engine at full throttle it doesn't miss a beat ... you can feel every cylinder fire.  Most importantly, I did not have to choke the engine to warm up.  All engines need a richer mixture to warm up on, but It took right off without hesitation.  This by itself is an unexpected potential fuel savings.  It is very exciting!  Next will be gasoline and alcohol emulsions then experimentation with distilled water.

Thanks for your interest,

Greg

thats very promising :), was the engine temp ok?,and were you able to ajust the fuel mix and lean it out a little?..if so.. i bet your car could run on a mix of acertone and water in a vapor system!

sounds like a better spark..is better :).

..now im wondering why they put resistance in them,maybe i missed something.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 02, 2008, 08:40:30 PM
The YouTube upload is complete ... a little better quality video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fj4LeCnAUQ


Most excellent work and video demo Greg ;D   

Amazing to see how quick it starts :o

You are in the number one spot light now. Congratulations :D

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Discharge on October 02, 2008, 08:49:10 PM
Wings,

Thanks for link!

Will check out.

T
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 02, 2008, 09:35:44 PM
Most excellent work and video demo Greg ;D   

Amazing to see how quick it starts :o

You are in the number one spot light now. Congratulations :D

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

oh, oh!  Well it's all your fault ... you started it.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 02, 2008, 10:07:47 PM
Hi everyone!!

I finally finished reading your whole topic....(ahhh.... Thank God!!)
First post here, to say MEN YOU HAVE DONE AN AWSOME WORK HERE!!!!
I made a huge amount of notes!!

I am a student (my age is 17) and I have a lot of homework to do for school, so there's no time for experiments and construction stuff.
I hope after finishing school (around this May - June) I will be able to buy an old used car as to make a project.

I would also like to thank you ALL, especially Gotoluc and others, for starting this topic and sharing everything!!

Keep updating, and the GREAT work!!!!

Regards,

Zissis
Athens, Greece
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 02, 2008, 11:12:47 PM
Hi everyone!!

I finally finished reading your whole topic....(ahhh.... Thank God!!)
First post here, to say MEN YOU HAVE DONE AN AWSOME WORK HERE!!!!
I made a huge amount of notes!!

I am a student (my age is 17) and I have a lot of homework to do for school, so there's no time for experiments and construction stuff.
I hope after finishing school (around this May - June) I will be able to buy an old used car as to make a project.

I would also like to thank you ALL, especially Gotoluc and others, for starting this topic and sharing everything!!

Keep updating, and the GREAT work!!!!

Regards,

Zissis
Athens, Greece

Thanks Zissis for posting. I am happy you have interest in this and wish you the best in your school year and look forward to your experiments next summer. I'm sure by then the group will have much new information for you to use for your tests.

Keep reading the groups development to stay up to date as the development is a group effort and I take no credit for it.

It comes from everyone and it is shared with everyone.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 03, 2008, 12:11:00 AM
Hi everyone,

user Jetijs (in bleu) of the Energetic Forum has brought back to the attention a very important point. He is talking about the benefit of Voltage Vs. Capacitance. See my reply below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs
I think that there is a difference in the basic circuit (gotoluc) and the booster cap circuit (Aaron) as the basic circuit does not make the spark plug hot and the effect goes bigger and bigger if you increase the voltage. The booster method is all about capacity.


Hi Jetijs,

thank you for bringing this up.

As you know I have made a video to demonstrate this a while back. For those who missed it here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJVbA8Upvs

If you want a bigger spark you raise the charge voltage of the capacitor and lower the capacitance (uf value) and save on energy.

I had a great spark using 2uf but charged to 1000vdc and you can get a better spark at 2000vdc with a .5uf cap and a most amazing spark at 3000vdc with a .22uf cap. I can go on but I think you get the picture.

Notice that all the above use the same energy (1 Joule) but yet the spark effect gets better as the voltage rises.

At this time Groundloop is designing me a switch circuit that hopefully will handle high voltage at low amps. But maybe a circuit is not even required as once the voltage is high enough it can jump a small gap, so we could just use a mechanical rotor to do the switching!... right ;D... so this maybe the way to go since electronic components have voltage limits.

User: Uncle Fester who works with Krupa on the development of the Firestorm Plugs has confirmed what I have shared about the voltage.

Peace & Love

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 03, 2008, 03:25:28 AM
Hi all,

Now I begin the work of making it all meaningful.  Already there are some mods that are for the convenience of telemetry / monitoring.

First I have relocated the diode clusters to a more accessible location for monitoring.  The first photo shows the clusters hanging from the air filter can and the feeds going directly to the distributor (small brown wires).  The purple wire (common) ties to the white wire (primary plus side of the coil).  The carbon plug wires have been replaced by solid wire cables (blue plug cables) that makes tying directly to the distributor possible.

The second photo is a baseline photo of No. 3 spark plug for the purposes of monitoring the effect of the plasma discharge on the plug.  The gap is .023 inch.   The spark plugs are non resistor (copper core).

And thank you all for your comments on the video.  They are appreciated and it is hoped that this work will benefit all.

Peace,

Greg
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/clusters.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/plug_init.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 03, 2008, 03:45:07 AM
With all these pictures I'm starting to miss my 72 VW Super Bug. It was my first car and I was 17 :D... we were best buddies :'(

Life and mechanics was so simple then. What have we allowed them to do to cars ???...you have a hard time just changing plugs on cars now and the fuel economy is no better.

Thanks for the pics Greg

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 03, 2008, 11:42:53 AM
Dear Greg

I use super bug too, 1971, i try to do the same as your,
I have questions.

witch circuit you use now.
from your picture, look like diode seem parallel
not series like in nuxsus circuit?

Do CDI necessary? can I use normal point?

Thanks,
zzzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on October 03, 2008, 11:45:07 AM
Hi zzzz

No this is the  water plasma spark circuit,(not Bill's nexus one) and You can find Greg's CDI circuit in these pages, the energetic forum, or in the groups PDF :)
This PDF is listed on page one of the thread listed as being on the panacea university site
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 03, 2008, 11:49:06 AM
Thanks ashtweth_nihilisti  ;D

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 03, 2008, 02:46:43 PM
Hi all,

I had a hard time trying to buy 6A10 diodes but that was because I didn't know that a P600M was the same diode.
For those who have the same difficulty here is a link on the datasheet:
www.perfectway.cn/down/Datasheet/STD/6A05%20P600A%20THRU%206A10%20P600M-.pdf

Or just google for 6A10 P600M...

6A10 diodes have 250Amp Peak Forward Surge Current 8.3ms, and this is very important on these setups.

Now I have a question, can an engine run on ethilic 70% vol. alcohol? Does alcohol mix with water?

rfsimoes
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 03, 2008, 04:40:15 PM
Dear Greg

I use super bug too, 1971, i try to do the same as your,
I have questions.

witch circuit you use now.
from your picture, look like diode seem parallel
not series like in nuxsus circuit?

Do CDI necessary? can I use normal point?

Thanks,
zzzz

Hi zzzz,

The circuit I am using is an adaptation of the very original circuit that Gotoluc demonstrated and then opened this thread.  In my circuit, the Cap is isolated and charged, then it is isolated again and then discharged to the coil as a pulse.  This can be done with a SPDT relay but the points will die early and can't cycle very fast. 

If you could cram a second set of points into the distributor housing then you could use standard points to trigger the power Mosfets I use. But I chose to use a standard points conversion for VW's that replaces the points with a solid state sensor and then added an extra sensor ... one for Charging the Cap and one for Discharging the Cap to the Coil.

The Nexus circuit uses the standard coil, points and voltage then 'piggybacks' a plasma spark onto the standard spark using the standard spark as a 'starter' path for the plasma to cross the gap on .... like a Tig welding machine with 'high-frequency soft- start'... GENIUS.   I chose to use the original circuit concept and made it solid state ...  for science reasons.

Please note that my system uses much lower voltage to the Cap than other systems because of my choice of power Mosfets ... voltage limitations, cost, availability, etc.

Diode strings can be used in place of the parallel diodes I use.  I use 4ea. parallel per channel to get a higher current capability.  Because I use lower voltage, I did not want the IxR and/or cascading loss(s) of multiple diode drops in the long diode strings. 

Two circuits follow and the third pic is a scope capture of charge and discharge trigger signals from the modified distributor.  My rendition of the original circuit is more difficult to make than the Nexus circuit but many here are capable of pulling it off:  Not shown are the 1A fuses into and out of the isolation transformer ... these are a "must-have" to protect the components.

***HIGH VOLTAGE***please be careful with ALL of this.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/compufire.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/distrib2.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/ren_energy/spark_plug/compl.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on October 03, 2008, 05:02:49 PM

Diode strings can be used in place of the parallel diodes I use.  Because I use lower voltage, I did not want the IxR or cascading loss(s) of multiple diode drops in the long diode strings. 

***HIGH VOLTAGE***please be careful with ALL of this.

Peace,
Greg

Hi Greg

How many NTE517 diodes do you have PER spark plug.  The diagram shows just 1 but in your picture it looks like more.  I'm referring to the componets in the picture that are between the purple wire and the brown wire that is going to each spark plug wire on the distributor cap.
Are there any other componets in your diagram that really should show multiple?

Thanks
DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 03, 2008, 05:41:32 PM
Hi Greg

How many NTE517 diodes do you have PER spark plug.  The diagram shows just 1 but in your picture it looks like more.  I'm referring to the componets in the picture that are between the purple wire and the brown wire that is going to each spark plug wire on the distributor cap.
Are there any other componets in your diagram that really should show multiple?

Thanks
DonL


4ea just for good measure.  I think 3 is adequate but they get warmer than I like ... so "4"

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 03, 2008, 06:06:57 PM
Hi zzzz

No this is the  water plasma spark circuit,(not Bill's nexus one) and You can find Greg's CDI circuit in these pages, the energetic forum, or in the groups PDF :)
This PDF is listed on page one of the thread listed as being on the panacea university site

Hey Ash,

I just visited Panacea and downloaded the PDF.  I truely feel honored that you included my work in the compilation.  You guys are doing such an incredible job there at organizing all of the innovations.

Again  thanks.  Sincerely,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: modernsteam on October 03, 2008, 07:58:35 PM
Great  job Luc

 :)

I am  not sure that I  agree  with you that  radiant  energy is involved ...
............................
gary


Hello Gary,

Unless we can prove that energy can be created from nothing at all, then, if there is a claim of overunity of any energy-based process, energy must therefore come from somewhere. But there could be several possible "somewheres", the most likely, from my readings on the various New Energy websites, eg., the writings of Bearden, being the Earth's magnetic field, or energy from the vacuum of space, generally thought to be scalar longitudinal waves. "Radiant  energy", the term used by Tesla, Bedini, and several others, is thought to be that very energy from space, a.k.a. "Zero-point energy". Even "water fuel" may really be just a good "energy carrier" or intermediary for that space energy, because of the apparent resonance characteristic of water. With water, it would seeem that the requisite pulsed input current at specific frequency and voltage ranges, pulse shape and width, and rest time between the end of one pulse and the beginning of the next (have I missed anything?) seems key to utilizing this apparently "secret" resonance to ultimately access this magnetic or vacuum energy. The secrets inventors appear to have are the specifics of these input current frequencies and amounts, voltages, and pulse widths, shapes, and rest times, all in addition to appropriate electrode materials, shapes, and surface characteristics. That's a lot on ones plate to deal with, and God help everyone in persuing these projects.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 03, 2008, 10:14:29 PM
Dear diary... ;D

Today I manage to run my engine on plasma.
Then I had a step back because after 5 seconds or so, my UPS ran out of batteries. I think the batteries are worn out.

The 2 paralel 300W bulbs light up very bright showing that the cap were being charged so it was working.
The engine sound better.

Does any one know a easy way for making a gasoline-water emulsion?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 03, 2008, 10:34:23 PM
Dear diary... ;D

Today I manage to run my engine on plasma.
Then I had a step back because after 5 seconds or so, my UPS ran out of batteries. I think the batteries are worn out.

The 2 paralel 300W bulbs light up very bright showing that the cap were being charged so it was working.
The engine sound better.

Does any one know a easy way for making a gasoline-water emulsion?

Pure acetone or rubbing alcohal will mix with water....

Regards ,

HV

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 04, 2008, 12:37:13 AM
Dear diary... ;D

Today I manage to run my engine on plasma.
Then I had a step back because after 5 seconds or so, my UPS ran out of batteries. I think the batteries are worn out.

The 2 paralel 300W bulbs light up very bright showing that the cap were being charged so it was working.
The engine sound better.

Does any one know a easy way for making a gasoline-water emulsion?

Great to hear.  Running on gas?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 04, 2008, 03:11:26 AM
Great to hear.  Running on gas?

Yes still with the old filthy gas.
Tomorow I'm planing to start testing alcohol. But as far as I know alcohol needs a 40% larger jet and I don't have any to mess with.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 04, 2008, 03:32:26 AM
Dear diary... ;D

Today I manage to run my engine on plasma.
Then I had a step back because after 5 seconds or so, my UPS ran out of batteries. I think the batteries are worn out.

The 2 paralel 300W bulbs light up very bright showing that the cap were being charged so it was working.
The engine sound better.

Does any one know a easy way for making a gasoline-water emulsion?

Hi rfsimoes,  good for you :D

A topic was started by user: goldenequity on Emulsifying here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5450.0

I hope he is still around since no new posts have been posted for some time but you would be amazed with all the information he has put together in such a small amount of time. Thanks goldenequity

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on October 04, 2008, 03:48:05 AM
check this video

this is the largest water explosion i ever heard.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cmwmgFpGXK4

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 04, 2008, 03:48:50 AM
Hi zzzz,

The circuit I am using is an adaptation of the very original circuit that Gotoluc demonstrated and then opened this thread.  In my circuit, the Cap is isolated and charged, then it is isolated again and then discharged to the coil as a pulse.  This can be done with a SPDT relay but the points will die early and can't cycle very fast. 

If you could cram a second set of points into the distributor housing then you could use standard points to trigger the power Mosfets I use. But I chose to use a standard points conversion for VW's that replaces the points with a solid state sensor and then added an extra sensor ... one for Charging the Cap and one for Discharging the Cap to the Coil.

The Nexus circuit uses the standard coil, points and voltage then 'piggybacks' a plasma spark onto the standard spark using the standard spark as a 'starter' path for the plasma to cross the gap on .... like a Tig welding machine with 'high-frequency soft- start'... GENIUS.   I chose to use the original circuit concept and made it solid state ...  for science reasons.

Please note that my system uses much lower voltage to the Cap than other systems because of my choice of power Mosfets ... voltage limitations, cost, availability, etc.

Diode strings can be used in place of the parallel diodes I use.  I use 4ea. parallel per channel to get a higher current capability.  Because I use lower voltage, I did not want the IxR and/or cascading loss(s) of multiple diode drops in the long diode strings. 

Two circuits follow and the third pic is a scope capture of charge and discharge trigger signals from the modified distributor.  My rendition of the original circuit is more difficult to make than the Nexus circuit but many here are capable of pulling it off:  Not shown are the 1A fuses into and out of the isolation transformer ... these are a "must-have" to protect the components.

***HIGH VOLTAGE***please be careful with ALL of this.

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,

I was wondering if I should and could update my first page post by adding your circuit and pictures so it could be an easy reference point when newcomers ask where to find it.

What would you think of this?

If you like the idea you may want to write all the information needed to explain like something you did above and it may help to reduce questions asked. We could refer newcomers to first read all the information and if they still have questions I could update your document with the answers.

Please let me know what you think of this or if you have ideas

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 04, 2008, 04:16:47 AM
Hi Greg,

I was wondering if I should and could update my first page post by adding your circuit and pictures so it could be an easy reference point when newcomers ask where to find it.

What would you think of this?

If you like the idea you may want to write all the information needed to explain like something you did above and it may help to reduce questions asked. We could refer newcomers to first read all the information and if they still have questions I could update your document with the answers.

Please let me know what you think of this or if you have ideas

Luc

Hi Luc,

Very flattering and go for it.  Let it evolve.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 04, 2008, 08:57:18 AM
Hi gmeast!

GREAT work you've done there! You have done the only one working project here!! Great video posted, and all showed!!
Me and all others are waiting for the "magic" video, to introduce water into your CDI plasma VW Bug, And see If it works!!!!


@Luc
Thanks for your wishes for my last school year!!
I will keep reading all of the updates.


Best wishes,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 04, 2008, 04:52:27 PM
Hi gmeast!

GREAT work you've done there! You have done the only one working project here!! Great video posted, and all showed!!
Me and all others are waiting for the "magic" video, to introduce water into your CDI plasma VW Bug, And see If it works!!!!


@Luc
Thanks for your wishes for my last school year!!
I will keep reading all of the updates.

Thank you and I will post EVERTYTHING ... plus and minus.

Greg


Best wishes,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 04, 2008, 06:02:35 PM
Hi all,

Wanted to share an observed spinoff of having the Plasma CDI. I have mentioned this earlier but now I'm giving it some significant consideration. If nothing else, there is a real emissions and economy advantage I've already noticed. On start up, I don't need to use the choke at all. I flip the Plasma "On" and it starts right up ... instantly ... not even one turn of the engine!

No excess fuel is used nor is there the associated polluting, rich, gagging fuel mixture.

Then I switch back to CDI-only once warmed up. I realize that this is minor compared to our ultimate goal but it is an immediate benefit ... a multi-mode/phase spark ... that's a new one! Also, additional flash Caps can be switched in or out as needed for temporary punch. The CDI alone puts the standard ignition configuration to shame.

Thanks again to everyone. Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 05, 2008, 12:52:49 AM
Hi guys,

Today I tried to mix water with gas and I think I came up with a reasonable emulsion.

I've poured some gas on a glass and then added 1/4 of water.
Then some drops of hair shampoo "Garnier", dish washer "Fairy".
At this point it starts to mix but it slowly separate also if let quiet.
Then I added a few drops of common 70% ethilic alcohol.

The mixture seems to stabilize long enough for a quick experiment.

At ebay.co.uk I could not find any COCAMIDE DEA and ETHOXYLATED NONYLPHENOL (IGEPAL).
We are doomed here on Europe :'(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on October 05, 2008, 12:54:17 AM
has anyone thought about combining the pulstar spark plugs (http://www.pulstar.com/ignition-velocity.html) (they have a corona discharge to them...meaning a small amount of plasma)
and using the nology plasma wires (http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/home_n.asp?dir=detail&id=1550) (thus enhancing the corona effect to a much much higher degree causing a larger area of plasma)

here is the pulstar plug quick understanding. (http://www.pulstar.com/energy-efficiency.html)

here are the nology wires stepping voltage to a plasma level BUT THERE ARE BAD THINGS ABOUT THESE CAPCITIVE WIRES WHICH CAN DESTROY YOUR PLUGS..
(http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/products/1550_b.jpg)

SO WIRES SUCH AS http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm (http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm) which are non capacitive type inductor wires should be used.

this could be our plasma injector withouth the need of a whole new circuit.

please be sure to click all the links.

any ideas on this?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 05, 2008, 08:10:56 PM
@gmeast,

How many amps is your system drawing off the inverter ?

When you say increase in economy do you mean your getting better MPG...if so how much ?


Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 05, 2008, 08:15:46 PM
@gmeast,

Have you noticed any overheating in your diodes.......

What is the longest amount of time you have ran the engine with the plasma ignition ?


HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 06, 2008, 01:33:41 AM
To all -- A little help. :P

 I finished up my Nexus plasma system. I have a standard electronic V8 ignition system off of a Dodge set up on a work bench. The distributor has the oem magnetic pickup in it(not points).I'm firing eight plugs with the Nexus system and getting a really nice consistent plasma ball with 120vac from the wall.I do admit that at first it was burning up my test plugs (melting) until I found the right combination of a starting capacity off of a furnace blower and a smaller transformer out of a small microwave oven.My problem I'm having is when I hook the system up to the 12vdc to 120vac inverter--then connect it to the battery that also powers the ignition system-- I'm getting some kind of feedback. As soon as I turn on the inverter  the transformer starts to hum and the inverter fault light comes on.I can hook the inverter up to a separate 12vdc battery supply and everything works perfect.All plugs fire and never misses a beat with a really nice plasma ball spark. Could this be because the inverter I have is a modify sine wave and that I need what they call a pure wave inverter.Has anyone else had this problem and how did you cure it.Any thoughts or ideals would be appreciated.
Thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 06, 2008, 01:35:25 AM
has anyone thought about combining the pulstar spark plugs (http://www.pulstar.com/ignition-velocity.html) (they have a corona discharge to them...meaning a small amount of plasma)
and using the nology plasma wires (http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/home_n.asp?dir=detail&id=1550) (thus enhancing the corona effect to a much much higher degree causing a larger area of plasma)

here is the pulstar plug quick understanding. (http://www.pulstar.com/energy-efficiency.html)

here are the nology wires stepping voltage to a plasma level BUT THERE ARE BAD THINGS ABOUT THESE CAPCITIVE WIRES WHICH CAN DESTROY YOUR PLUGS.

SO WIRES SUCH AS http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm (http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm) which are non capacitive type inductor wires should be used.

this could be our plasma injector withouth the need of a whole new circuit.

please be sure to click all the links.

any ideas on this?

Hi kinesisfilms,

thank you for your well done post.

The plasma spark we are producing with the circuit is much stronger then what these products can do on there own and at less cost I believe. We cannot use them to enhance the effect either! we need to work with a non resistor plug and wire.

If you think I have not understood your suggestion please do let me know.

Thanks for posting

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 06, 2008, 01:39:45 AM
To all -- A little help. :P

 I finished up my Nexus plasma system. I have a standard electronic V8 ignition system off of a Dodge set up on a work bench. The distributor has the oem magnetic pickup in it(not points).I'm firing eight plugs with the Nexus system and getting a really nice consistent plasma ball with 120vac from the wall.I do admit that at first it was burning up my test plugs (melting) until I found the right combination of a starting capacity off of a furnace blower and a smaller transformer out of a small microwave oven.My problem I'm having is when I hook the system up to the 12vdc to 120vac inverter--then connect it to the battery that also powers the ignition system-- I'm getting some kind of feedback. As soon as I turn on the inverter  the transformer starts to hum and the inverter fault light comes on.I can hook the inverter up to a separate 12vdc battery supply and everything works perfect.All plugs fire and never misses a beat with a really nice plasma ball spark. Could this be because the inverter I have is a modify sine wave and that I need what they call a pure wave inverter.Has anyone else had this problem and how did you cure it.Any thoughts or ideals would be appreciated.
Thanks

Hi bwb,

I'm no expert with the Nexus circuit but it sounds to me you have a ground problem. The case of the inverter should not touch the ground.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 02:42:10 AM
@gmeast,

Have you noticed any overheating in your diodes.......

What is the longest amount of time you have ran the engine with the plasma ignition ?


HV

Hi HV,

How many you got in parallel on each channel?

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 06, 2008, 02:44:39 AM
Hi bwb,

I'm no expert with the Nexus circuit but it sounds to me you have a ground problem. The case of the inverter should not touch the ground.

Luc

Thanks for the response. I have followed your post and to me you are an expert. :)
  The case is not grounded to anything on the outside of it.Could it be that the inverter circuit itself is causing the connection by the way it produces the ac current?Since it is a modify sine wave form and not a pure wave form? Should I Just open it up and undo any internal grounds and hope for the best?BOOM ;D :o Any ideals welcomed.I do remember that the original plasma arc circuit that got this all started had to have a independent power supply.So I'm thinking maybe the type of inverter and the way it produces the ac may have something to do with it?Any experts on inverters out there? :P ;)Better yet has anyone else got the nexus to work on a Modify sine wave inverter with a positive output from your coil using only one battery?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 02:52:08 AM
@gmeast,

How many amps is your system drawing off the inverter ?

When you say increase in economy do you mean your getting better MPG...if so how much ?


Regards,

HV

Hi HV,

I haven't said anything yet about MPG.  I just got it in a few days ago.  I will be testing for longer and longer periods of time as my job gives me time to.  I spent this weekend cleaning up the install and taking some pulse-power data. 

My ignition system consumes 2.234 A(ave) at 5,000 RPM.

That comes from:
5,000 Rpm = 83.33cycle per sec.X 4-Cyl / 2(for 4-stroke engine) = 166.7 pulses per sec
&
12.5 ohm current limiter to Mosfet through 134V (charge) = 10.72 A
&
scope says 2.5 ms per pulse charge but it's a 'ramp up' = 1/2 = 1.25 ms per pulse (ave)
so ... duty cycle is 1.25 ms/pls X 166.7pls/sec. = .208 (this is now dimensionless factor)

10.72 A X .208 = 2.234 A

This is to everyone:
It is unreliable to use most of the digital current measuring devices you buy for determining power in many of these circuits..  They don't even measure modified sine wave inverter current reliably because of the square wave.  On top of that,  all of these systems are transferring power as "pulses" and these digital devices can't compute wattage correctly.  They like "smooth" DC and sine wave AC.  The most reliable way to measure power in a pulsing circuit is to use a shunt and a scope and compute the power across the shunt.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 06, 2008, 03:18:51 AM
Hi HV,

This is to everyone:
It is unreliable to use most of the digital current measuring devices you buy.  They don't even measure modified sine wave inverter current reliably because of the square wave.  On top of that,  all of these systems are transferring power as "pulses" and these digital devices can't compute wattage correctly.  They like "smooth" DC and sine wave AC.  The most reliable way to measure power in a pulsing circuit is to use a shunt and a scope and compute the power across the shunt.

Greg
I have to say one thing.I plan on building your circuit.It seems to be the way to go.But not being a electronics expert I'm starting out playing with the simple nexus circuit.You know! Put transformer here,put diodes here. I hope you don't mind it when I start being a pain in your back asking this and that :D But i will do a search for the answers first.Maybe you can make a idiot proof layout of your circuit? It looks to me that it could be hook up to a standard electronic ignition system with no problems at all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 06, 2008, 03:22:44 AM
Thanks for the response. I have followed your post and to me you are an expert. :)
  The case is not grounded to anything on the outside of it.Could it be that the inverter circuit itself is causing the connection by the way it produces the ac current?Since it is a modify sine wave form and not a pure wave form? Should I Just open it up and undo any internal grounds and hope for the best?BOOM ;D :o Any ideals welcomed.I do remember that the original plasma arc circuit that got this all started had to have a independent power supply.So I'm thinking maybe the type of inverter and the way it produces the ac may have something to do with it?Any experts on inverters out there? :P ;)Better yet has anyone else got the nexus to work on a Modify sine wave inverter with a positive output from your coil using only one battery?

Hi bwb,

I'm quite sure that it has nothing to do with the modified sine wave as it works when you isolate it using another battery so that would show you it is an isolation problem.

If anyone here has a suggestion please go for it as I have no good remedy.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 03:48:53 AM
I have to say one thing.I plan on building your circuit.It seems to be the way to go.But not being a electronics expert I'm starting out playing with the simple nexus circuit.You know! Put transformer here,put diodes here. I hope you don't mind it when I start being a pain in your back asking this and that :D But i will do a search for the answers first.Maybe you can make a idiot proof layout of your circuit? It looks to me that it could be hook up to a standard electronic ignition system with no problems at all.

Hi bwb,

No pain.  I've never built the Nexus or Alexa circuit but there is a whopping big difference between the one I've experimented with and the Nexus style.  The  one I made is based on the very first, original 'water spark plug' circuit where the Coil is pulsed with HV and not regular battery voltage.  (see the very first post in this thread - page 1). The original circuit is basically a CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) with a Diode feedback scheme.  The Nexus style is a regular voltage ignition system with an HV system 'piggy backed' onto it and with a 'similar' Diode feedback scheme.

Thanks for your interest.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 06, 2008, 03:57:30 AM
Hi bwb,

I'm quite sure that it has nothing to do with the modified sine wave as it works when you isolate it using another battery so that would show you it is an isolation problem.

If anyone here has a suggestion please go for it as I have no good remedy.

Luc

Thankyou gotoluc
I will do a check on the circuits ground and hopefully find the problem.I appreciate your input and advice very much.I will post it if I find the problem.

Thankyou again.
Bob

PS-- Here is something my brother and I plan on burning with the plasma arc. Woodgas compress in a  tank.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2N0a6Swi00
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 06, 2008, 04:05:08 AM
Hi gmeast,

Thanks for your average current draw calculation. Since the way I understand your circuit, all power comes from the inverter, can you measure inverter current draw from the battery to compare it with the calculation? I am not sure if it will be pulsing or will be filtered by the inverter internal capacitors, etc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 06, 2008, 05:08:07 AM
Thankyou gotoluc
I will do a check on the circuits ground and hopefully find the problem.I appreciate your input and advice very much.I will post it if I find the problem.

Thankyou again.
Bob

PS-- Here is something my brother and I plan on burning with the plasma arc. Woodgas compress in a  tank.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2N0a6Swi00

Hi bwb,

thanks for sharing that. First time I hear of this but I bet my friend Rick knows about this woodgas.

Keep us updated of your tests.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on October 06, 2008, 06:17:14 AM
@gmeast,

  I was hoping that you could answer a question in regards to the solid state relays that you are using.  Most SSR's require a voltage drop on the secondary side in order for the relay to disengage.  This does not appear to be the case with the Crydom relays that you are using.  Do the Crydom relays disengage when the voltage is dropped on the primary side like a standard relay?

Thanks for all of your efforts.

LapperLL

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on October 06, 2008, 02:49:41 PM
Hi All,

Haven't been here in a very long time as other business ventures have consumed all my time as of late.  S1R, Nathran, said he would drive his car running on water (not the mythical El Camino however) to a show in Ruskin, Florida October 18-19, 2008.  My group was wondering what BS he'd come up with when he didn't show up.  I am not sure if those here follow Nathran's BS, but here is his most recent post and amazingly enough, he won't be at the show...  Imagine that!  LMAO

***************************
I am still laughing my a$$ off at Nathran's latest post.  We were all wondering what BS excuse he'd come up with when he couldn't produce a real vehicle.  Members of my group were betting he just wouldn't show up, and then post something to the Waterfuel1978 group saying he had car trouble, his dog ate his homework, his grandmother died, or something to that effect.

At least he came up with his BS before the show to make his "no-show" more believable.  This guy is a total joke!  I wonder why he just doesn't take the El Camino to the show?  Maybe because his El Camino, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, etc. all have one thing in common... they don't exist!  Still Laughing My Ass Off!

Here is his post on the Waterfuel1978 group:

Florida Event.
Posted by: "s1r9a9m9" s1r9a9m9@...   s1r9a9m9
Sun Oct 5, 2008 2:10 pm (PDT)

Due to a problem with the vehicle that I planed to drive to the event
haveing blown the top of the engine off, ( intake busted, haeds
cracked, pistons drove down through the oil pan, fan through the
radiator, and other stuff blown off the engine.) I will not be
attending the event as planed.

We were testing it on the express way and there was no warning that
it would do what it did. We were driveing it at about 70 mph when the
engine blew up. Engine parts every where. There are even holes
through to the inside of the vehicle where parts flew off the engine.
The vehicle is a mess and needs a lot of work. I dont know how it
effected the transmission yet.

The exhaust feed back was direct to the intake and it put to much
pressure on the return gases and the amount of nos was more than
expected so we got a big bang out of it. it happens and they ant
nothing we can do about it.

This is a second disapointment to me and its probly not the last. I
will contenue to try to get the info out when it works well enough
for others to copy with out any danger.

I know a lot of people is expecting me to be at the event but now
with the engine blown in the vehicle I dont have anything to show.

It will take two weeks to replace the engine and other stuff that got
damaged. Even if pushed. The vehicle still may do the same thing on
the way. Just not enough time for the test needed to do it right.

As for the other info I will post it. I have been busy trying to get
ready for the event and now I can get back to the group and post the
other drawings that I have.

I know that this is not what any one wanted to hear but it happened.

S1R.
***************************
Way too funny,
Geo

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 05:41:46 PM
Hi gmeast,

Thanks for your average current draw calculation. Since the way I understand your circuit, all power comes from the inverter, can you measure inverter current draw from the battery to compare it with the calculation? I am not sure if it will be pulsing or will be filtered by the inverter internal capacitors, etc.

HI insane4evr,

You read my mind!  Today after regular work, I will fit an amp meter in the DC line to check agreement.  I will use an analog meter because digitals go unreliable with pulsing. I know the inverter I use has a front-side Cap ... may be good filter.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 06:04:06 PM
@gmeast,

  I was hoping that you could answer a question in regards to the solid state relays that you are using.  Most SSR's require a voltage drop on the secondary side in order for the relay to disengage.  This does not appear to be the case with the Crydom relays that you are using.  Do the Crydom relays disengage when the voltage is dropped on the primary side like a standard relay?

Thanks for all of your efforts.

LapperLL

Hi lapperll,

Yes, you're welcome. The SSR's I am using are Power Mosfet packages complete with opt-isolated DC control inputs.  Most other SSR's are SCR based and require the voltage drop you mentioned.

These are:
Crydom Model D2D12 SSR(12A 200VDC 0 - 32VDC control input)
Mouser Electronics P/N 558-D2D12

I would make sure you have that power resistor on the charge SSR like in the diagram to protect the SSR.  The inrush current into a (even a small one) capacitor can exceed the max. inrush current rating for the mosfets.

Unfortunately these SSR's limit your ability to experiment with higher voltages.  There may be other brands of Mosfet SSR's out there that have higher ratings, better price, etc. but I used these because they had the isolated control input.  I didn't feel it a good budget of time to try and learn how to do that level of electronics.

Don't let both SSR's to fire (prolonged, seconds) at the same time or you can say "bye-bye" to your coil.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 06, 2008, 06:22:02 PM
Hey Guys,

I just hooked up a HEI Distributor from a Chevy 350 to fire plasma! I have it locked in a vice on the bench, wired out to an external coil, worked great charging the cap to 120V. HOWEVER, when I added a voltage doubler circuit to the cap, I fried the ignition module. (I wanted that extra bang, just got it in the wrong place)  My fault, I think, I failed to isolate the grounding circuits from each other. Question is this, what would be a good way to "in-line" protect the module from harm's way? Would a few 1 amp fuses in all directions from the module be a good start? It was perfectly happy with the cap firing at 120V. Closer to 300V.......not so happy. Don't want to switch to frying modules instead of inverters.  The inverters only cost $40, my boss just replaced the module, it was $55. I have spark again now. This underway experiment is an attemp to fuse together the "piggy-back" Nexus circuit technology with the "gmeast" "super isolated CDI plasma" circuit technology. Since I like both circuits, why not try to use a degree of both circuits and hook up a V-8 to see if it will work well enough. My boss just got a digital video camera that will allow me to FINALLY upload videos to the computer and then the web. I will be recording my first EVER video to upload maybe later today, subject.....V-8 HEI CDI Plasma!!! (if I can keep from frying ignition modules, that is). Wish me luck, any insight on protecting the ignition module is appreciated and needed. Thanks everyone for all the help freely given here.  Later.......................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 06:41:00 PM
Hey Guys,

I just hooked up a HEI Distributor from a Chevy 350 to fire plasma! I have it locked in a vice on the bench, wired out to an external coil, worked great charging the cap to 120V. HOWEVER, when I added a voltage doubler circuit to the cap, I fried the ignition module. (I wanted that extra bang, just got it in the wrong place)  My fault, I think, I failed to isolate the grounding circuits from each other. Question is this, what would be a good way to "in-line" protect the module from harm's way? Would a few 1 amp fuses in all directions from the module be a good start? It was perfectly happy with the cap firing at 120V. Closer to 300V.......not so happy. Don't want to switch to frying modules instead of inverters.  The inverters only cost $40, my boss just replaced the module, it was $55. I have spark again now. This underway experiment is an attemp to fuse together the "piggy-back" Nexus circuit technology with the "gmeast" "super isolated CDI plasma" circuit technology. Since I like both circuits, why not try to use a degree of both circuits and hook up a V-8 to see if it will work well enough. My boss just got a digital video camera that will allow me to FINALLY upload videos to the computer and then the web. I will be recording my first EVER video to upload maybe later today, subject.....V-8 HEI CDI Plasma!!! (if I can keep from frying ignition modules, that is). Wish me luck, any insight on protecting the ignition module is appreciated and needed. Thanks everyone for all the help freely given here.  Later.......................................Mike

Well, this is how progress is made ... takes someone with guts to try things. Best of luck!

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on October 06, 2008, 07:50:34 PM
Some cool videos showing the power of water zapped with electricity. ;D

6000V underwater spark in a swimming pool:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7071092171301511423&ei=mE7qSNWTMIvs-wHdiKW_CA&q=%22underwater+spark%22&hl=en

6000V underwater spark in a pale of salt water:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7494412709896356081&ei=mE7qSNWTMIvs-wHdiKW_CA&q=%22underwater+spark%22&hl=en
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 06, 2008, 08:30:41 PM
Hi Greg

Very impressive progress you are making there. Have been following it very closely  ;D

I read you wanted to try multisparks?

I have played with it on my CDI and I must say, it need alot of power to achieve this.

For example, if you wanted 3 sparks at 3000 RPM, you will need to be able to charge and discharge the capacitor 3 times within 10 degrees per revolution.

If you plug in all the values you have on your circuit using this calculator >

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/rc.htm

You will find that its almost imposible to achieve it, unless you increase the inverters power output or reduce the capacitor capacity.

Have you checked if the capacitor is getting charged to 63.2% of the supply (atleast) before dumping it to the coil when the engine is running at 3000 RPM let say? A scope should show you this.

The reason I asked is because I noticed you have put a limiting resistor in series with the capacitor, and the capacitor is such a big value... you may get away with a smaller capacitor value.

Keep up the good work, excellent stuff you got there  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 08:48:19 PM
@gmeast,

Have you noticed any overheating in your diodes.......

What is the longest amount of time you have ran the engine with the plasma ignition ?


HV

Hi HV,

The current felt by the diodes (4in parallel) has a relationship to the Cap size.  I have no overheating on continuous running with my 47uF Cap.  During development, 100uF got them too warm for my liking.  Of course it made a HUGE plasma burst ... probably destructive to the plug.

Thanks HV,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AhuraMazda on October 06, 2008, 09:59:45 PM

On multiple discharge:
If you want to discharge the capacitor 3 times, you will have to be very quick to charge it up.
I don't think it is practical.
My proposal is to charge the 3 capacitors prior to reaching TDC and firing them at desired intervals.
This puts heavy demands on the circuit design.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 10:11:43 PM
Hi gmeast,

Thanks for your average current draw calculation. Since the way I understand your circuit, all power comes from the inverter, can you measure inverter current draw from the battery to compare it with the calculation? I am not sure if it will be pulsing or will be filtered by the inverter internal capacitors, etc.

Hi insane4evr,

I have taken the measurement with an analog amp meter and here are the results with final calcs in watts:

First the pulse power calcs again:
5,000 Rpm = 83.33cycle per sec.X 4-Cyl / 2(for 4-stroke engine) = 166.7 pulses per sec
&
12.5 ohm current limiter to Mosfet through 134V (charge) = 10.72 A
&
scope says 2.5 ms per pulse charge but it's a 'ramp up' = 1/2 = 1.25 ms per pulse (ave)
so ... duty cycle is 1.25 ms/pls X 166.7pls/sec. = .208 (this is now dimensionless factor)
therefore:
10.72 A X .208 = 2.234 A

looking at the capture from the scope (1st photo below) it resembles a sine wave somewhat, so we can use 0.707 X 134V in the average power calc:
.707 X 134V X 2.234A = 211.6 Watts.
Wp = 211.6 W

Now,

the alternator was putting out 13VDC
the analog amp meter (2nd & 3rd photo below) read 16 A
13V X 16A = 208 Watts
Wi = 208 W

and Wp agrees pretty good with Wi.  Compared 211.6 W to 208 W.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/plas_pulse.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/meter0.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/meter1.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 06, 2008, 10:31:32 PM
@gmeast,

Thanks for doing the math...

So a smaller inverter wouldn't work ?...... the inverter has to be 400w or more ?

Thanks for your time..

Mahalo Nui Loa,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 06, 2008, 10:46:52 PM
On multiple discharge:
If you want to discharge the capacitor 3 times, you will have to be very quick to charge it up.
I don't think it is practical.
My proposal is to charge the 3 capacitors prior to reaching TDC and firing them at desired intervals.
This puts heavy demands on the circuit design.


Hi

I was also thinking something along that line, well I though using 3 set of CDIs might do it. Each capacitor is charged in turn such that the load on the inverter is spread throughout each revolution. Then the 3 capacitors are discharge sequentially within let say that 10 deg.

I dont know if its beneficial or not, I wont bother with it at the moment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 06, 2008, 11:21:32 PM
Hi insane4evr,

I have taken the measurement with an analog amp meter and here are the results with final calcs in watts:
.....
and Wp agrees pretty good with Wi.  Compared 211.6 W to 208 W.

Peace,

Greg

Man you really know your stuff. And a mathematician even.

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 06, 2008, 11:35:34 PM
Man you really know your stuff. And a mathematician even.

Thank you very much.

You are most welcome!

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vonwolf on October 06, 2008, 11:44:41 PM
On multiple discharge:
If you want to discharge the capacitor 3 times, you will have to be very quick to charge it up.
I don't think it is practical.
My proposal is to charge the 3 capacitors prior to reaching TDC and firing them at desired intervals.
This puts heavy demands on the circuit design.

    I havn't folllowed this thread long so this might be coverd allready. Anyway MSD makes a long line of HiPef egnition products that can deliver an insane voltage mulipule spark discarge at any timeing you may need. They can be pricey but go to Sumitt Racing or Jegs and you might get some ideas, you never know we gear heads might be able to help
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 07, 2008, 03:06:02 AM
Here are two different types of CDI ignition systems.The first is a really simple one used on older cars and the second is a multi spark high output.Could help with ideals?

http://www.wbnoble.com/WN_articles/CD-ignition-SK.pdf

http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/SC-DIY-CDI-article-hires.pdf
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 07, 2008, 04:48:42 AM
Bill is back. Take a look at his new video.




http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6829539099631634836&hl=en
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on October 07, 2008, 04:52:01 AM
Hi rfsimoes,  good for you :D

A topic was started by user: goldenequity on Emulsifying here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5450.0

I hope he is still around since no new posts have been posted for some time but you would be amazed with all the information he has put together in such a small amount of time. Thanks goldenequity

Luc

Hi .... still here!  Been busy for the last 10 days working on a pet project.  ;D
been working on a high-cat`ion electrolyte that good down to -32F.... very cool.
Also an emulsion for bubblers that's good down to -29F.... keeps me out of trouble.
I'm following all the progress here.... and yes....
there is a simple water/gas emulsion posted in the thread you mentioned.
cheers!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on October 07, 2008, 05:18:40 AM
Guys Bill also needs some answers as do we all for this circuit, please take a look :)

--------------------------

further down the rabbit hole, here!

I spent all weekend tinkering with the Plasma Arc Generator on the
bench and have made some interesting discoveries. Perhaps 'weird'
would be a better word, but only in respect to conventional electronic
theory.

Here's the deal; I was still not convinced that there was any
appreciable current draw through the unit that would account for the
obvious current in the plasma arc at the plug. Being a bit eccentric,
I decided that when I put it on the bench, I would change the low
voltage, theoretically high current leads going to the plug from 14
gauge to, of all things, telephone hookup wire, just to watch them
melt, or not.

They don't even get warm, even at wide open maximum welding arc!

As long as the inverted dipole exists across the plug, the unit draws
no current from the source and, actually appears to send current back
into the source.

The unit does show current draw through the diode rectifier, in some
cases, over 100 amps, but it is not being generated from the mains or
the battery. Everything in the unit remains cool to the touch and the
2.5 amp fuse in the output holds just fine.

I have reduced the size of the inductor from the large MOT to a small
squirrel cage motor winding. It does not heat, even at max arc.

I need some help figuring out what is going on from a conventional
perspective first. If there is no way to explain what is happening
with conventional electronic theory, then we should take a look at
what may be happening in the dipole arrangements. I think we may be
talking ZPE here, although I don't think a Zero is appropriate and
I'll be glad to tell you why.

There is a physical mechanism for building up millions of volts of
static charge between a storm cloud and the earth, but there is NO
mechanism that can account for the tremendous current exchange that
takes place during a lightening strike – that still remains a mystery.
Perhaps we've harnessed the 'secret' of lightening.

-----------------------------------
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 07, 2008, 05:45:36 AM
Hi all,

Has anyone come across a good source for capacitors? I've been using surplus store Caps for the plasma CDI. Does anyone know about photo flash caps?

Thanks in advance,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 07, 2008, 08:23:04 AM
Hi all,

Has anyone come across a good source for capacitors? I've been using surplus store Caps for the plasma CDI. Does anyone know about photo flash caps?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

Hi Greg,

I've got about 6 or 8 photo flash caps from a box of disposable cameras my uncle gave me. They are 330vdc and about 160uf. I tried them and they work well. He picked up those cameras for free from some photo shops (after they remove the film to develop)

That's about all I know

Luc

PS @everyone, I have not been posting as much since I'm doing many tests on a very interesting circuit to which I hope to share soon.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on October 07, 2008, 09:11:38 AM
alright while walking amongst the internet i stumbled upon this

"Hello,
I have worked with Bob Krupa, and I have the first Firestorm prototypes sparkplugs made. As well as advanced prototypes that were developed. There is more to the mix than just the sparkplug. Plasm ingition is the first step
to high eff engine. It takes at least 800ma for 5ms and a special plug to with stand it.
A better way is to use Pulstar sparkplugs
[link to www.pulstarpulseplugs.com]
[link to www.pirate4x4.com]
To be able to get the most out of of it
you will need to be able to re-program the ECU.
Like the MegaSquirt II programable ECU.
[link to www.diyautotune.com]
If the air to fuel muxture is even per cylinder.
The air fuel ratio of 30 to 1 will produce the least
CO and NOX near zero...Like the Bourke engine...
At this AF ratio the engine will have less power
but will have the highest SFC possible.
Bob reprogramed his ECU to 24 to 1...
The plug alone will not convert into 50% increase.
The Pulstar clam 6% increase in MPG this is on a stock car.
Have fun..
Doug"

this is copied from this forum.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message581058/pg1 (http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message581058/pg1)

now remeber the pulstar plugs push out 1,000,000 watts.....and popular mechanics did a test on these plugs and found it to increase horsepower by 10.4 horse to the wheels and torque by 7.2.
http://www.pulstar.com/pdf/modified_April2008.pdf (http://www.pulstar.com/pdf/modified_April2008.pdf)


maybe if we modified the spark gaps structure to match that of a firestorm plug and increased maybe the voltage going to the plugs this might work.

i just keep coming back to what already exists...i see a common problem with these spark plugs is that they seem to weld them selves at the site of a plasma flame.....the material might greatly help also.....now i also listened to a radio interview with bob krupa on blog talk radio....jsut search bob krupa on the blog talk radio website and look for a link with the kentucky water fuel museum guy.....SO MUCH INFORMATION IS RELEASED IN THIS INTERVIEW.....please any comments to this would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on October 07, 2008, 09:20:12 AM
http://www.smartplugs.com/fuels/aqueousfuels.htm (http://www.smartplugs.com/fuels/aqueousfuels.htm)

http://e3sparkplugs.com/technology.htm (http://e3sparkplugs.com/technology.htm)

http://www.halo-sparkplugs.com/ (http://www.halo-sparkplugs.com/)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 07, 2008, 11:28:00 AM
Hi Greg,
   
    About Cap, long time ago, i have experiences with Vacum Tube class A sterio amplifier, at final out put, they must have VERY PRECISE CAP to block DC come out to destroy speaker, that So Expensive :( (on that time, wima brand ), some guy recommmend to modify standard cap to be very good cap, Bi-Cap, it very popular trick may be you already know.
   just use very small cap ( polystylrin or polypropyline type non polar, picofarad value) parallel to main cap, they said sound stage will far more dynamic, not the same as very expensive cap, but from my ears, i can here a lot differences from standard, they call this modification Bi-Cap. 

  This may work, i don't know, I not have theory.
   cuz I'm mechanic  :P   ;D

http://www.thlaudio.com/wimaitme.htm


zzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 07, 2008, 09:50:37 PM
Hi all,

Yesterday I ran my engine on gasoline and plasma for some stable and reliable minutes.
The experience was so encouraging that today I decided to go ahead with water alone but it was a no go.
I puled and puled that cord and nothing.
I could only hear a loud bang at the exhaust but no power stroke. :'(


Sadly
rfsimoes
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on October 08, 2008, 12:29:04 AM
Sitting here having a think it would appear that you have a vacuum created due to very high current flow then a rapid current collapse of the plasma - and at the moment of collapse drawing the normally untapped ZPE energy out of the vacuum - and as such ZPE being literally tapped into by the current collapse. In fact, I theorises that the plasma collapse is a ZPE "switch" that may expalin why under "orthodox" electronics theory that its impossible to create more energy - unless of course you are tapping into the ZPE field using the plasma collapse. And tapping of the ZPE is possible in a vacuum but requires I believe a voltage potential to first exist across the vacuum ( where the plasma used to be ) - which is what you would have immediately after the plasma collapse across the plug spark gap. 

This is the "Wokka Theory".   :)   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on October 08, 2008, 01:51:42 AM
Hi Greg,

I've got about 6 or 8 photo flash caps from a box of disposable cameras my uncle gave me. They are 330vdc and about 160uf. I tried them and they work well. He picked up those cameras for free from some photo shops (after they remove the film to develop)

That's about all I know

Luc

PS @everyone, I have not been posting as much since I'm doing many tests on a very interesting circuit to which I hope to share soon.

looking forward to it   Good Luc !
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 08, 2008, 02:08:45 AM
Hi all,

Yesterday I ran my engine on gasoline and plasma for some stable and reliable minutes.
The experience was so encouraging that today I decided to go ahead with water alone but it was a no go.
I puled and puled that cord and nothing.
I could only hear a loud bang at the exhaust but no power stroke. :'(


Sadly
rfsimoes

    Maybe you could try injecting propane to get her started and heated then shift over to water. 
Title: Bill's Nexus Circuit
Post by: lapperll on October 08, 2008, 02:24:20 AM
Well I watched Bill's second video and he explained his circuit more clearly.  He also showed close up footage of how his circuit is wired.

I decided to go ahead and test it my test vehicle with one plug and 120vac from my wall socket.  I have been reluctant to attempt his circuit due to every ones posts of burnt out inverters.

I am happy to inform everyone that the circuit worked just as described.    ;D

Just as a precaution, I isolated everything!!  Even the MOT.  I believe that this will be required to run effectively.   ;)

Next step is to try and not burn up my inverter.

I will post more info once I have completed and post an updated schematic.

I also only used 45 diodes during this test, due to the fact that I stole 15 for my Gmeast circuit that I have been playing with.

LapperLL
Title: Inverter question
Post by: zzzz on October 08, 2008, 03:47:34 AM
I got question again,

yester I went to electronics shop to buy  400w  12-220 V inverter

ther ask me what type do you want?
they sell 3 type
1.pure sine wave, most expensive  lets say prices 7x.
2.modify sine wave, middle prices  4x.
3.modify square wave. from chaina, very cheep.  1x

body is the same, they test with TV for me, all of them work fine with.
but with fluorescent lamp with square wave have alitle bit blink,(very little)...

which one is proper for the circuit,
Thanks,

zzzz
Title: Re: Inverter question
Post by: gotoluc on October 08, 2008, 04:06:49 AM
I got question again,

yester I went to electronics shop to buy  400w  12-220 V inverter

ther ask me what type do you want?
they sell 3 type
1.pure sine wave, most expensive  lets say prices 7x.
2.modify sine wave, middle prices  4x.
3.modify square wave. from chaina, very cheep.  1x

body is the same, they test with TV for me, all of them work fine with.
but with fluorescent lamp with square wave have alitle bit blink,(very little)...

which one is proper for the circuit,
Thanks,

zzzz

Hi zzz,

I would go for the cheap one as you will be passing the output through a rectifier anyways to create DC. No need for Sine Wave with the stuff we are doing.

Luc
Title: Bill's Nexus Circuit First Test Video
Post by: lapperll on October 08, 2008, 04:11:49 AM
I was too excited, so I had to make a quick video.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDq6pLxQGU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDq6pLxQGU)

I'll have to do more testing tomorrow, it's getting late and the wife will kill me if I stay up late again!!   >:(

LapperL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 08, 2008, 05:21:50 AM
Hi all

I just finished with a brain storm that paid off.
I named it "VEXUS" just for fun.
I designed a CDI/Conventional ignition hybrid that has:

stability
no SCR's
no Mosfets
no twitchy inductors (no MOT parts)
tuneability
scaleability
adaptability
simplicity
. . . . phew!

It piggybacks onto standard 12 VDC Coil.
Definable by conventional theory.
Can be explained in terms of "soft start" technology used on my 30 year old Tig welding equipment.

Video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze43yeqbYSs

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: Bill's Nexus Circuit First Test Video
Post by: gmeast on October 08, 2008, 05:53:03 AM
I was too excited, so I had to make a quick video.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDq6pLxQGU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDq6pLxQGU)

I'll have to do more testing tomorrow, it's getting late and the wife will kill me if I stay up late again!!   >:(

LapperL

Hi lapperll,

Congratulations!  Feels good don't it?  It's great when a plan comes together ... huh?

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 08, 2008, 06:54:46 AM
Hi all

I just finished with a brain storm that paid off.
I named it "VEXUS" just for fun.
I designed a CDI/Conventional ignition hybrid that has:

stability
no SCR's
no Mosfets
no twitchy inductors (no MOT parts)
tuneability
scaleability
adaptability
simplicity
. . . . phew!

It piggybacks onto standard 12 VDC Coil.
Definable by conventional theory.
Can be explained in terms of "soft start" technology used on my 30 year old Tig welding equipment.

Video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze43yeqbYSs

Peace,

Greg


Excellent Greg!... I like it...and the name ;D

You've got a good sense of humor.   :D Good for you

Are you going to post a circuit?

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 08, 2008, 07:19:45 AM
Excellent Greg!... I like it...and the name ;D

You've got a good sense of humor.   :D Good for you

Are you going to post a circuit?

Luc



Hi Luc,

Absolutely am going to post the circuit.  It took less time to build it than to draw it.  Tomorrow you'll see the circuit.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on October 08, 2008, 08:08:42 AM
Hi Luc,

Absolutely am going to post the circuit.  It took less time to build it than to draw it.  Tomorrow you'll see the circuit.

Peace,

Greg
Great solution. You've positively re-affirmed that K.I.S.S. wins again! ......  ;)   KneeDeep
Cheers
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kensmith52 on October 08, 2008, 02:17:20 PM

Guys Bill also needs some answers as do we all for this circuit, please take a look :)

--------------------------

-----------------------------------

Where is the forum that they are on as i can't seen to find it. However, I would think his digital meter is causing most of his current reading problems. When you first tum on a piece of equipment, the current is about 3 times higher than normal because of in-rush. This is happening all the time on this circuit because of the pulsing. I would use a analog current meter but if he wants to limit the current on the circuit he could do this. Put a ballast (Resistor) in line with the 120 volts. Use I= E/R.  So 120 divide by 60 ohms = 2 amps.
So if you get a short on the plug, this resistor will draw 240 watts.
Ken
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 08, 2008, 02:27:30 PM
Has anyone tried to explode ionized water, steam or fog?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HaroldCR on October 08, 2008, 02:52:59 PM
 There seems to be some EXCELLENT info, at this link. Scroll down to near the end.

Link (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=628.15)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 08, 2008, 07:12:50 PM
There seems to be some EXCELLENT info, at this link. Scroll down to near the end.

Link (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=628.15)

Please somebody should tell the stevie1001 on that forum that he needs to catch up a little bit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 08, 2008, 09:21:54 PM
Hi all,

New VexUs multi-spark plug circuit operating with standard 12VDC coil now on video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diA3TbNzuUA

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 08, 2008, 09:38:46 PM
Wow, excellent job Greg ;)

The VexUs name still makes me laugh ;D

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 08, 2008, 09:47:40 PM
Hi greg,

You never cease to amaze me !!!

Thank you very much for sharing !!!

Kind regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 09, 2008, 01:02:18 AM
Hey guys,

I just uploaded a video to Utube of my V-8 distributor plasma firing all 8 spark plugs. I have no idea how long it takes for them to "process" a video, but as soon as they do, it can be viewed by everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ongInjtR4qg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ongInjtR4qg)

The video is not very good quality, due to a piece of junk camera. The spark looks alot better in person, have to get a better camera. I only have 110V supplying this circuit right now. I intend to build part of Greg's circuit to go along with mine and up the volts to around 300 or so. I found out that the Crydom mosfets also come with a volt rating of 400, for about $30 more each. Anyway, there's my first vid, can't wait to finish stabilizing this circuit and try it out in a Chevy 350!! Later....................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 09, 2008, 01:29:05 AM
Hi all,

New VexUs multi-spark plug circuit operating with standard 12VDC coil now on video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diA3TbNzuUA

Peace,

Greg




Hi greg,

With your new circuit will it be neccesary to isolate the inverter ?

In your video's of the new circuit are you using mains AC or an inverter to power the circuit?

Thanks for your help....

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 09, 2008, 01:55:15 AM
Great job there jstadwater

Video looks good to me

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 09, 2008, 04:16:34 AM



Hi greg,

With your new circuit will it be neccesary to isolate the inverter ?

In your video's of the new circuit are you using mains AC or an inverter to power the circuit?

Thanks for your help....

Regards,

HV

Hi HV,

Thanks and yes/no.  I am on an isolation transformer plugged into the mains.  Even with an inverter the circuit needs the isolation.  I need the IT when I'm on the mains because of ground conflicts with my o-scope ... sparks and stuff ... not good.  I'm posting circuit now.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 09, 2008, 04:23:19 AM
Hi all,

I've attached the hybrid circuit diagram. It should be noted that the choice of R1 and C1 are critical to the frequency response the circuit will have. For instance if C1 is 22uf and R1 is 55ohms then one RC time constant is 0.0012 seconds. 5X RC gives you a quick enough charge for a 4-cylinder engine turning 5000 RPM. The discharge time is dependent upon the circuit resistance ... it should be kept as low as possible. This will determine how completely the CDI Cap discharges and how much it floats above 0-VDC like shown on the VexUs scope trace in the last video.

In the video I used a 0 - 3500 ohm pot just for test and development since I didn't know what to expect. This is all new to me too.

The mechanism of the circuit is no mystery. Most welding equipment especially Tig welding equipment have a feature called 'high frequency start'. In this type of welding you use a torch that's not really a torch but an electrode holder with a sharp tungsten tip shrouded in inert gas. A high current arc is generated between this tungsten tip and the workpiece and that's the heat source. To start the welding arc you normally would need to touch the tungsten tip to the workpiece. But with 'high freq' a high frequency (low current) spark 'dances' around in the gap between the tungsten and the workpiece ionizing the space and making it very conductive. The high current welding arc now starts all by itself. This is likely what is happening in our circuits. The regular ignition spark is ionizing the spark plug gap allowing the higher current stored in the CDI Cap to flow.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 09, 2008, 05:06:10 AM
Great job Greg ;D
Thanks very much..., this the thing I waiting for.  ;D  ;D  ;D

please help to solve my question.

from your explanation, If i want to rev at 6000 rpm, 4 cyl, time consume in each spark is 5ms. or 0.005 s
so you reccomend to use 5 time less that mean 1 ms for charging, right?  ???

if correct, what differences between High C Low R that give the same RC vaule as Low C high R. and for this 22uf with 45Ohm is ok. have effect with spark plug eating?

and about isolate transformer, it 1:1 correct, but it can't find it nearest is 1:2 ( 110 to 220V ) can i use 220 invertor and stepdown to 110 and use with this circuit. ???

as your reccomend to keep lowest resistacnes in all system, but i can't fine non resistances spark plug here..  :P   How can i make VexUs work?


Dear Luc,

  Thanks you, i broght china inverter. ;)

Regard
zzzz


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 09, 2008, 05:12:36 AM
Excellent simple circuit Greg,

I was about to update the first page with your stable circuit and you announced a new circuit so I decided to wait and see what it looks like.

To me this new circuit looks to be about the simplest multi plug circuit to date and I like simple solutions so do you think it's ready to post or do you need to do more tests?

Thanks again for all this most excellent research and development and coming up with a simple solution.

Your dedication is a true example of Open Source Sharing (OSS)

May your life be blessed for your effort to help our World.

@everyone, you must all look at this video presentation and reflect as the message is real. We need to work together as we are doing here to fix what we have let them do to US. 

Video Link: http://www.storyofstuff.com/index.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 09, 2008, 05:22:04 AM
Hi greg,

I think you have answered all of Bill Cozzalino's questions from his latest video of the "Nexus circuit"  with your "VexUs"
circuit......And you managed to keep it simple, i love it !!!

What do you think about replacing the FWB with Xboxhackers voltage doubler...being that we can now tune the spark to our liking....????

Aloha,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 09, 2008, 05:24:55 AM
Great job Greg ;D
Thanks very much..., this the thing I waiting for.  ;D  ;D  ;D

please help to solve my question.

from your explanation, If i want to rev at 6000 rpm, 4 cyl, time consume in each spark is 5ms. or 0.005 s
so you reccomend to use 5 time less that mean 1 ms for charging, right?  ???

if correct, what differences between High C Low R that give the same RC vaule as Low C high R. and for this 22uf with 45Ohm is ok. have effect with spark plug eating?

and about isolate transformer, it 1:1 correct, but it can't find it nearest is 1:2 ( 110 to 220V ) can i use 220 invertor and stepdown to 110 and use with this circuit. ???

as your reccomend to keep lowest resistacnes in all system, but i can't fine non resistances spark plug here..  :P   How can i make VexUs work?


Dear Luc,

  Thanks you, i broght china inverter. ;)

Regard
zzzz


zzzz,

please let me know why would you want to rev your engine to 6,000 RPM???

If you have a 220 inverter good for you!... but don't step it down!... reduce your capacitance by half and still you will have a better effect then those using a 120 inverter.

Did you read my first page? it has the information how to make your plugs resistorless and many have posted a video demo showing how to do it. You need to read more of the posts to get all the information.

Luc

Can someone please re-post the video demo of the resistor being removed from the plug please and I'll include it in the first page also.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 09, 2008, 05:49:53 AM
@All,

Here is a video showing how to remove the resistor from a spark plug....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Best regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 09, 2008, 07:05:00 AM
Resistorless spark plug:

I wanted plugs for a 1993 toyota pickup and a 1970 Camaro.
Here is what I did: I went to site www.sparkplugs.com
Plugged in my car info to get: thread, reach, and hex size. Of course they will list resistor type.

Then I played with searching for makes older than 1960 with the same thread, reach, and hex size (maybe not too important) and here is what I found for my needs:

For my 1993 toyota pickup: Non-US automobile, Hillman Hunter: NGK Traditional sparkplug BP6ES (non-resistor).

For my 1970 Camaro: 1957 Corvette: NGK Traditional sparkplug B6S (non-resistor).

You can either order from them and might pay a hefty shipping cost or knowing the part number(s) that will work, see if your local store carries them.

Just my 2 cents.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 09, 2008, 07:06:35 AM
Dear Luc,
   Bug is not so strong ( with standard engine ) so they gave me very much gear ratio,
at 100 kmhr he use 4800rpm@3rd and 120kmhr 4000rpm@4th
I ever hit 5200 some time but for save side i think 6000 is number,

 If you mean torch and pull cermic out I understnd and done that
but I can't assembling it back for work...... it slip out ... 555   :P


for sure I read this great post since first page,
repilcate some Ossise circuit,
may be it too long for may memory, I need to re read all again, thanks.

still need the recommend on my  question.

regard,
zzzz

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 09, 2008, 08:07:50 AM
Great job Greg ;D
Thanks very much..., this the thing I waiting for.  ;D  ;D  ;D

please help to solve my question.

from your explanation, If i want to rev at 6000 rpm, 4 cyl, time consume in each spark is 5ms. or 0.005 s
so you reccomend to use 5 time less that mean 1 ms for charging, right?  ???

if correct, what differences between High C Low R that give the same RC vaule as Low C high R. and for this 22uf with 45Ohm is ok. have effect with spark plug eating?

and about isolate transformer, it 1:1 correct, but it can't find it nearest is 1:2 ( 110 to 220V ) can i use 220 invertor and stepdown to 110 and use with this circuit. ???

as your reccomend to keep lowest resistacnes in all system, but i can't fine non resistances spark plug here..  :P   How can i make VexUs work?

Hi zzzz,

wow ... many questions ... I am just using basic knowledge here.  I am no expert.

22uf @ 450 ohms  = 0.0099 sec. too long,: 22uf @ 45 ohms = .00099 sec.= about 0.001 or 1ms.

also remember your power requirement: you will charge about 150 VDC so 150V / 45oh = 3.3A
but if 1 RC then ave. = 3.3 / 2 = 1.7A X 150 = 250 Watts (power resistor rating).  I guess this is why people are using light bulbs.

in RC time circuits 1 time constant is about 68% of full charge and that is what is used in the RC calculation.  5 time constants is considered full time until you reach full charge because the charge is not linear with time.  So you take what you need, such as 0.005 sec., and divide by 5 ONLY for computing the values for R or C ... whichever you are starting with.  So we are actually computing the values of the components for 5ms ... crazy!

on isolation transformers:  I have not completely explored the VexUs circuit.  It is possible that using higher voltage may work better than low voltage.  I don't know yet.  It is a new circuit.  I have been using McMaster-Carr transformers and I can give you a part number.

70245K71    
Control Transformer with Plug & Connector 150 VA, 115V Input, 115V Output

if you use a transformer that is TRULY an isolation transformer then you may use a step down isolation transformer.  As I said ... this is new to me too.

Any other help on non-resistor plugs for zzzz would be appreciated.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 09, 2008, 08:30:13 AM
Hi greg,

I think you have answered all of Bill Cozzalino's questions from his latest video of the "Nexus circuit"  with your "VexUs"
circuit......And you managed to keep it simple, i love it !!!

What do you think about replacing the FWB with Xboxhackers voltage doubler...being that we can now tune the spark to our liking....????

Aloha,

HV

Hi HV,

To tell you the truth I don't know how it will react to higher voltages.  It is 'tunable' for sure, but I would hesitate going too HV because the power rating for the current limiter R1 might go too high and it may end up needing to be an active circuit device rather than a cheap passive one as it is now.  Much basic experimenting should be done to find out what the practical limits are.  I plan to keep probing the prototype circuit from the video for transients that could be damaging to an ECM or computer stuff.  If it turns up clean, I'll put it in my '96 F150 Truck.  It's all computer, OBDII, blah, blah, blah electronic, etc.

So in a nut shell, 'uh ... I don't know'.  Still working on everything but the basic circuit I posted is solid I think.

One thing I have entertained is switching in & out various combinations of R1's and C1's to change the energy character of the circuit.  This is practical to do I think.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 09, 2008, 08:46:01 AM
Hi greg,

Thanks for taking your time to answer questions with clarity...............You  da man  ;D ;D ;D!!!!!!

Mahalo,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 09, 2008, 01:07:08 PM
Hi zzzz,

wow ... many questions ... I am just using basic knowledge here.  I am no expert.

22uf @ 450 ohms  = 0.0099 sec. too long,: 22uf @ 45 ohms = .00099 sec.= about 0.001 or 1ms.

also remember your power requirement: you will charge about 150 VDC so 150V / 45oh = 3.3A
but if 1 RC then ave. = 3.3 / 2 = 1.7A X 150 = 250 Watts (power resistor rating).  I guess this is why people are using light bulbs.
...

Hi zzzz,

I forgot a detail.  This is a pulse power calculation and therefore there is a duty cycle to consider for this power rating.  For brevity,  we can consider a frequency high enough that we only have a charge time of 1 RC.  The trace will look like a saw tooth and around 50% duty cycle.  We can take the 250 Watts (from above) and cut it in half ... 250 / 2 = 125 Watts ... there! ...  much better.  I knew I forgot something.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 09, 2008, 07:04:37 PM
Hi all,

I wanted to post some information re: operationsl frequencies for VexUs.  I  ran the resistance of the current limiter R1 down to 125 ohms running in the circuit with the 22uf CDI Cap (C1).  Then I captured a trace of the charge and discharge cycle in order to check reality against the theoretical.  With these values a  1-Time Constant  =  RC = .000022 X 125 = .00275 sec or 2.75 ms.

The first photo is the raw trace. It floats above 0 - VDC because R1 is still passing current during the discharge cycle.  The second photo is the raw trace translated downward and left to the origins and stretched right and left ... 'cause it's easier to read that way.

Even though the raw trace is actually floating up a little, we'll treat the second photo as a perfect curve just to see if we have any agreement with calculated values.  1RC is considered to be 0.63 of full voltage charge on any Cap.  The photo shows about 160 VDC to be full charge so:

0.63 X 160 = 108.  The second photo has a time scale of .001 sec (1ms) per division (horizontal).  So if you go from 0,0 over 2.75 ms (from earlier) and then 'up' and you'll see that you cross the trace between 100 VDC and 110 VDC.  This agreement at least instills some confidence that you can select a component and it will perform approximately as the numbers say it should.

Power for R1 would be 160V / 125 ohms = 1.28 A:  Aave = 1.28 / 2 = .64 A..  At max speed it's about a 50% duty cycle, so = .64 A / 2 = .32 Amps.  .32 A X 160 V = 51 Watts.  There's also the current that flows during the discharge cycle so that needs to be added in.  I'll think about what that should be.

The charge / discharge trace shown would be good for a 4-cylinder engine running from 'idle' to about 3,000 RPM.  But you can drop R1 down to 55 ohms and it is theoretically good for 5,000 RPM (full effect).  I'll be testing this soon. And I hope this post can help others understand these circuits.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/raw.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/1ms.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on October 10, 2008, 02:10:15 AM
@Luc
Quote
@everyone, you must all look at this video presentation and reflect as the message is real. We need to work together as we are doing here to fix what we have let them do to US. 
Video Link: http://www.storyofstuff.com/index.html
Excellent video Luc, I would go further,ask yourself a question-----What do I do in the economy---what is my contribution? It turns out 99% of us do nothing but support each other, that is our only purpose. like the 10 support people for each soldier in the army, the support people don't fight they are a government make work program---and so are we. Who makes the most positive contribution to society? Not corperations, not governments, not support people------Inventors ;D Peoples living conditions have improved through technology, over 80% of the most beneficial technologies that have been patented were invented by individuals----not corperations nor government. We are the future right here in this forum, we can create the future we want-----a better one.
Regards and keep up the good work ;)
AC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on October 10, 2008, 02:59:34 AM
Nexus Circuit Update

I spent some time today cleaning up my Nexus test circuit and implemented the inverter.  With all of the reports of fried inverters, I installed fuses going into and coming out of the inverter as a precaution.  I started at 1amp and worked my way up to a 7amp fuse in order to run the inverter.  I did not alter the circuit in any way from the one I used in the video I posted the other day.  The only difference is the inverter, and as you can see in the picture I have attached, it is completely isolated from the vehicle.

  The instant I turn on the inverter with the engine running, the warning light comes on and the inverter trips out.  This is exactly the same condition that BWB noticed with his nexus replication.

 When I use another battery (the one in the photo) that is isolated from the system, it works great!  Again, the same results that BWB was having.  >:(

I also noticed that when I use the vehicles battery and the inverter tips, I can see a spark at the ground clip that I attach to the engine block.  This lead me to believe that it was an issue with the AC voltage that is going through the MOT (microwave oven transformer).  So I went ahead and removed the Half Wave Rectifier that was on the neutral side of the AC and installed a FWB.  I ran the positive DC to the MOT and the negative to the diode string.  I got the same end result, the inverter tripped.  When I used the isolated battery, it worked fine.  I went ahead and reversed the polarity (-dc to MOT and +dc to diodes) it did nothing at all.

@anyone;
I am at a loss and was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to what could be causing this. ???

I have had great hopes for this circuit, due to its simplicity and the potential for it to be utilized on fuel injected vehicles that utilize a coil for every cylinder.  But at this point I am ready to abandon it and move on. :'(

@bwb;
Have you had any further luck?


Thanking everyone in advance,
LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 10, 2008, 04:08:38 AM
Thanks Greg
   Now i understand
  yesterday I went to three electronic shops , all i got is not satify again,  >:(
I got 350mA 12000V diode only 5 ea ( VexUs circuit is 15000V)
(I use the same Bosch blue coil as your)
Cap 470uf but 250V biggest that they have only 2 ea
Cap 22uf 400 V 5 ea thats OK
i add 10uf 450 V
R 220 ohm 20 w  8 ea

but they don't have isolation transformer, even 220 to 110 V they don't
they have only theroide 220-45V minimum ratio that they have... :P

I live in Thailand but not in capital...
maybe this is the time to visit Bangkok...

12000V BreakDown. is enough for this coil  ???
will have any problem if i don't use isolation trans. ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 10, 2008, 04:13:22 AM
Thanks Greg
   Now i understand
  yesterday I went to three electronic shops , all i got is not satify again,  >:(
I got 350mA 12000V diode only 5 ea ( VexUs circuit is 15000V)
(I use the same Bosch blue coil as your)
Cap 470uf but 250V biggest that they have only 2 ea
Cap 22uf 400 V 5 ea thats OK
i add 10uf 450 V
R 220 ohm 20 w  8 ea

but they don't have isolation transformer, even 220 to 110 V they don't
they have only theroide 220-45V minimum ratio that they have... :P

I live in Thailand but not in capital...
maybe this is the time to visit Bangkok...

12000V BreakDown. is enough for this coil  ???
will have any problem if i don't use isolation trans. ???


Hi zzzz,

Check out Futerlec.com thet are based in Bangkok i believe...

Regards,

HV





Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on October 10, 2008, 04:14:33 AM
someone else has successfully done this.....i got these images through a yahoo group

(http://www.hvlabs.hu/tmp/vizauto_talalkozo/K%e9p%20005.jpg)
(http://www.hvlabs.hu/tmp/plazmagyujt_doboz.jpg)

(http://www.hvlabs.hu/tmp/plazmagyujt_full1.gif)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 10, 2008, 04:19:35 AM
zzzz,

Sorry that's futurlec.com....

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on October 10, 2008, 06:44:42 AM
To LapperLL and all.


Hey lapperll -- I have tried every setup I could think of since that other post and still think it is the type of inverter. I am using a modify sine way inverter. The original plasma by sr1 used two batteries and I think a modify sine way.I believe but don't take my word on it that you could run the inverter though a  isolation transformer which is used to decouple two circuits then to the nexus circuit.At least that is what I will be trying when I can locate or make one.

I have to say that Bill's circuit is worth the trouble. I bench tested it both with a points distributor and a electronic ignition system(magnetic pickup distributor)firing eight spark plugs and it worked perfect. I ran it for about 20 minutes with the electronic ignition and then shut it down and discharge the cap for safety and found no heating of anything just like Bill said. I even eliminated the mot and just used a small 110V 50 to 60 HZ coil with out a core and it worked fine.I used telephone line wire for all the leads,But will use a bigger gauge wire for the finish product.While it was running I spray a water mist on the plugs and got the normal response.(POW )Water exploding. :o All eight plugs exploding water made me take a step back.  ;D



But in the mean time I will contact Bill and see what kind of inverter he is using? A modify sine way or a pure sine way and post what he has to say about it.

Bill's new video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6829539099631634836&hl=en
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 10, 2008, 07:59:42 AM
@LucExcellent video Luc, I would go further,ask yourself a question-----What do I do in the economy---what is my contribution? It turns out 99% of us do nothing but support each other, that is our only purpose. like the 10 support people for each soldier in the army, the support people don't fight they are a government make work program---and so are we. Who makes the most positive contribution to society? Not corperations, not governments, not support people------Inventors ;D Peoples living conditions have improved through technology, over 80% of the most beneficial technologies that have been patented were invented by individuals----not corperations nor government. We are the future right here in this forum, we can create the future we want-----a better one.
Regards and keep up the good work ;)
AC

Thanks AC for making these points and your words of encouragements.

From all the great work and contributions I am seeing here I have great hope that group effort like this will transform our World to a better place for ALL

Love All Serve All

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 10, 2008, 05:04:00 PM
Hey guys,

Here is the link to the vid I just shot using the marine plugs with no ground strap. Still only 110V, maybe 300V tomorrow. My camera does not pick up the plasma spark very well, but you still can get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwbYJ48uV58 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwbYJ48uV58)

Thanks again Greg, I really like the VexUs circuit!! 

Tomorrow is another day to play.................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 10, 2008, 07:38:20 PM
Here is a video of Greg's VexUs circuit firing plasma via my V-8 HEI distributor. The max speed on the drill I used spun the distributor at 2,300 rpm. No misfires, even if you see that the camera may not have captured them all. A VERY crisp sound from the plasma at 2,300 rpm, I was completely ASTOUNDED!! Here you go, more to come.....................

HEI V-8 VexUs plasma---2,300 rpm   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPaO94l8ugY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPaO94l8ugY)

Enjoy, I sure did while I was filming it!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 10, 2008, 07:47:21 PM
  Does the plazma shutdown long enough at high rpm to avoid misfire?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 10, 2008, 09:56:37 PM
Here is a video of Greg's VexUs circuit firing plasma via my V-8 HEI distributor. The max speed on the drill I used spun the distributor at 2,300 rpm. No misfires, even if you see that the camera may not have captured them all. A VERY crisp sound from the plasma at 2,300 rpm, I was completely ASTOUNDED!! Here you go, more to come.....................

HEI V-8 VexUs plasma---2,300 rpm   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPaO94l8ugY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPaO94l8ugY)

Enjoy, I sure did while I was filming it!


Great video....

What kind of software are you using on your laptop........

Can you confirm that the plasma ignition will not have any negative effects on  OBD1 - OBD2-  computers...

Thanks for sharing your findings........

Aloha,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 10, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
Thanks happyvalley,

  I just had the laptop sitting next to the circuit during operation to see if there were any fields created that were strong enough to interfere with the display screen of the laptop. Since there was no interference of the laptop display, I would assume there wouldn't be an EMF generated strong enough to affect a vehicle computer. You know, if you get a speaker too close to a TV or computer screen, the EMF will distort the colors displayed. The laptop display was only 4 inches away from the plasma "kick wires", and only 24 inches from the spark plug assembly, no interference at that range so hopefully we are good to go. But, I'm no expert by far, so I don't know for sure if that's even a viable test, just all I could think of at the time.

@sparks

As for the question  about the plasma collapsing long enough at high rpm to keep from igniting the fuel coming in through the intake valve, (is this what you meant by "misfire"?) I have not gotten that far in testing yet. But I would think that since mechanical timing is being used in it's original configuration, as long as the timing was adjusted properly, it shouldn't be a problem. That too, depends maybe on just how high an rpm we're talking about. Will it be usefull for a dragster that cranks out 12,000 rpm, probably not. The first thing that comes to mind about the reliability of mechanical timing is the fact that early, front-prop war planes used it to time the firing rate of high powered machine guns to be able to shoot at full speed without blowing off their own propellers! Now that's accuracy. Anyway, I digress. More tests need to be done, later..............................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 10, 2008, 11:49:04 PM
I have no clue as to what resistence I should be using, but I just measured the ohms on the light bulbs I have been using. The 100 watt bulb I used in all the videos, measures 10.2 ohms. I now have a 75 watt bulb in the socket and it measures 13.9 ohms, seems to be about the same "effect" at the plug as the 100 watt, at 500 rpm, as fast as I can spin it by hand anyway. I also put in a 40 watt bulb, seemed to decrease the "effect" a little, measured 26.2 ohms. I should probably wait to get the rest of my HV diodes before I try to figure it out too much, right now I have a mix of different types of diodes and configs. Two plugs are each firing with 60 1N5408 diodes in series, two are firing each with 6 strings of 10 1N5408 diodes in parallel, and the other four on the bottom of my steel plate, (strongest of all the sparks) are each firing with a single HV microwave diode 12,000V rated. Maybe the mix is what's heating up my capacitor?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 11, 2008, 12:23:56 AM
Excellent work there jstadwater ;),

I would agree that once all your diode strings are equal it will be better.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 11, 2008, 12:49:50 AM
  Does the plazma shutdown long enough at high rpm to avoid misfire?

Hi sparks,

a user named smw1998a of the Energetic Forum studied my basic circuit effect and made some excellent videos with scope shots to demonstrate the effect. His 250vdc cap discharge time was less than 10us.

Please look at the videos of his study.

Luc

smw1998a Spark Study and Discharge time Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QmzePtUeU

smw1998a Cap Charge time tests Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-YtAX6j_hg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 11, 2008, 05:41:13 AM
 Hi all,

VexUs high speed - multi spark plug bench test

video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgY81rKw3Hw

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 11, 2008, 06:40:01 AM
Hi all,

VexUs high speed - multi spark plug bench test

video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgY81rKw3Hw

Peace,

Greg

Extremely impressive Greg ;D

Thanks for sharing ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vonwolf on October 11, 2008, 07:16:06 AM
  I dont want beat a dead horse here but the risistor spark plugs are only for radio noise reguction it has very little to do with performance. Turn your radio on youll hear it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sigmaX on October 11, 2008, 03:08:41 PM
Hi folks!

I´ve been following this topic with great interest. I got a question, from my ignorant standing point (excuse please if it was already answered before, or obvious):

As I´ve seen in the firestorm video (on youtube) the spark that generates is very similar to the one the Nexus and Vexus systems do...

I've been also peeking at the pulstar pulse plugs, and their internal configuration, and it seems that inside they got some kind of solution to increase the discharge and manage the high voltage discharge you people are managing with a converter / diodes / etc.

Now, if it is the same kind of spark (it looks like the same, visually) ... these plugs are not that expensive, and you don't have to build up a whole system. So I was wondering if it is really the same or not ? or what are the gains of walking this other path ? I am asking because I am about to do my own tryings, but my finish line is the practical issue of reducing gas usage in my car.

Also why are you all trying with big motors ? why not test all this with a generator / lawnmover motor ? and (I know it is another topic) ... wouldn´t it be easier and less expensive to try to get water exploding, on a small motor ?

Regards,

Enrique.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 11, 2008, 04:19:50 PM
Hi folks!

I´ve been following this topic with great interest. I got a question, from my ignorant standing point (excuse please if it was already answered before, or obvious):

As I´ve seen in the firestorm video (on youtube) the spark that generates is very similar to the one the Nexus and Vexus systems do...

I've been also peeking at the pulstar pulse plugs, and their internal configuration, and it seems that inside they got some kind of solution to increase the discharge and manage the high voltage discharge you people are managing with a converter / diodes / etc.

Now, if it is the same kind of spark (it looks like the same, visually) ... these plugs are not that expensive, and you don't have to build up a whole system. So I was wondering if it is really the same or not ? or what are the gains of walking this other path ? I am asking because I am about to do my own tryings, but my finish line is the practical issue of reducing gas usage in my car.

Also why are you all trying with big motors ? why not test all this with a generator / lawnmover motor ? and (I know it is another topic) ... wouldn´t it be easier and less expensive to try to get water exploding, on a small motor ?

Regards,

Enrique.

Hello sigmaX,

       I think I need to point out, and I think most will agree, you have to use a pretty high dollar camera to be able to even come close to fully capturing the "actual" plasma blast that is being generated on our plug tips. The Firestorm plugs may be the next best thing, but they are not available unless you make them yourself. I, like so many others, anxiously await their release to the public. When they are available, my test will be to see what "effect" we can get with them in conjunction with our CDI systems, as well as standing alone. As for why some of us are using big engines instead of 1 cylinders, I can only speak for myself, of course. I want a real world application that will allow me to positively affect the lives of as many people as possible. I think some of us also like to push the envelope a little as well. I, personally, am not satisfied with "good enough". I want to know how far the limits can be pushed, and then made applicable as a "blows your mind" device. Keep in mind also, our ultimate goal here is to get away from having to even use fossil fuels in our engines. We don't know yet to what level we need to take our circuits. Even if our systems end up generating more energy than we actually need (in the final stages), cutting back the produced energy of a given circuit is the easy part. I hope I have in some way helped you understand this subject a little better, at least from my perspective. Our goal is to ultimately help everyone, that's why all the info is freely shared here. Thanks for your interest and all the best wishes for success to you as you start your own testing. Have a great day, every day.......................................................Mike  
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sigmaX on October 11, 2008, 04:52:01 PM
Hi Mike!

Thanks for your explanation. I understand. In my country, anyway, just adapting an electrical generator to use water, would be a breakthrugh (our electricity is mainly from charcoal based power stations). Electricity itself is quite expensive (y pay between 50 U$S and 100 U$S for my house electricity, per month, and I have only a max (capped out) 3.3 Kw contract, so go figure.

But anyway, the idea of converting the car into something that could use a mix of gas and water / alcohol, or even water alone, makes anyone drool :)

Regards, Enrique.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on October 11, 2008, 07:50:07 PM
 Has anyone thought of using two or more plazma sparks per stroke? One to split and the others to split again?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 11, 2008, 08:30:57 PM
  I am not sure if this has been done but back in the day they use to recycle spark plugs.  You would ultrasonic or manually clean the plug and file and regap the electrodes.  Then to make sure they were ok you would screw them into a little box with a viewing window and pressurize the box to 30 or 40psi.  Then view the spark through the window.  I had one of these from an old garage and used it in my youth working in an autoelectric shop. They were also used as a diagnostic tool if you had a skip in cylinder.  They were replaced with oscilliscopes with inductive pickups on the coil wire that would show you how well your ignition was doing without removal and inspection.  Point being compression of the air changes the spark gap characteristics considerably.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 12, 2008, 12:26:25 AM
  I am not sure if this has been done but back in the day they use to recycle spark plugs.  You would ultrasonic or manually clean the plug and file and regap the electrodes.  Then to make sure they were ok you would screw them into a little box with a viewing window and pressurize the box to 30 or 40psi.  Then view the spark through the window.  Point being compression of the air changes the spark gap characteristics considerably.

Hi sparks,

you are correct, the spark does preform very differently under pressure.

YouTube user ozicell has made his own pressure chamber to test his own modified plug at about 100 psi..

Here are some of his video's. Keep in mind he is using a standard ignition system only but what he call kiker cables?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6UE345GXoA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl9zXE7ntRQ

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: maxc on October 12, 2008, 03:49:15 AM
Hi all,

I've attached the hybrid circuit diagram. It should be noted that the choice of R1 and C1 are critical to the frequency response the circuit will have. For instance if C1 is 22uf and R1 is 55ohms then one RC time constant is 0.0012 seconds. 5X RC gives you a quick enough charge for a 4-cylinder engine turning 5000 RPM. The discharge time is dependent upon the circuit resistance ... it should be kept as low as possible. This will determine how completely the CDI Cap discharges and how much it floats above 0-VDC like shown on the VexUs scope trace in the last video.

In the video I used a 0 - 3500 ohm pot just for test and development since I didn't know what to expect. This is all new to me too.

The mechanism of the circuit is no mystery. Most welding equipment especially Tig welding equipment have a feature called 'high frequency start'. In this type of welding you use a torch that's not really a torch but an electrode holder with a sharp tungsten tip shrouded in inert gas. A high current arc is generated between this tungsten tip and the workpiece and that's the heat source. To start the welding arc you normally would need to touch the tungsten tip to the workpiece. But with 'high freq' a high frequency (low current) spark 'dances' around in the gap between the tungsten and the workpiece ionizing the space and making it very conductive. The high current welding arc now starts all by itself. This is likely what is happening in our circuits. The regular ignition spark is ionizing the spark plug gap allowing the higher current stored in the CDI Cap to flow.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus.jpg)
Why not tap power off the 117 dc volts in the inverter and eliminate the full wave rectifier? Or will that cause problems?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 12, 2008, 05:44:03 AM
Why not tap power off the 117 dc volts in the inverter and eliminate the full wave rectifier? Or will that cause problems?

Hi maxc.

Fantastic question.  Anything to eliminate parts is a good thing.  The isolation transformer provides a buffer between the inverter and the circuit and most importantly it isolates the circuit so you can look at it with a scope without smoking the scope.  I guess it depends on the construction of the inverter and one's comfort level with performing surgery on an inverter.   Most people don't have a problem with hooking a FWB to an inverter to get 150 - 180 VDC for their experimentation.  An inverter+FWB=instant gratification.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 12, 2008, 06:06:10 AM
Hi Greg,

I plan to build your "VexUs" circuit, but i will use a voltage doubler in place of the FWB....

In your opinion should i increase the value of R1 or would it be sufficient for testing...

Thanks.

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 12, 2008, 06:17:40 AM
Hi Greg,

I plan to build your "VexUs" circuit, but i will use a voltage doubler in place of the FWB....

In your opinion should i increase the value of R1 or would it be sufficient for testing...

Thanks.

HV

Hi,

What size your CDI Cap (C1) and R1 now?  You'll need to make sure your doubler can deliver the CDI charge current to C1 through R1.  The FWB has no current limitation up to 'burnout'. (smoke).  As the double increases voltage it also decreases current so it's possible that C1 won't charge fast enough ... it might 'float and arc' at the plug.

I have no experience with rating doubler ladders ... sorry.  Can someone advise here please?

Peace,

Greg

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 13, 2008, 03:13:11 PM
If you put a bifilar coil on the HV coil you've got a VIC with minimal amps,, whci hdrives Stans injectors. (I think)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on October 13, 2008, 03:59:11 PM
If you put a bifilar coil on the HV coil you've got a VIC with minimal amps,, whci hdrives Stans injectors. (I think)

Except, to efficently fracture water into Hydrogen and Oxygen you need to supply pulsed DC to the fuel cell.

If you can figure out a circuit to pulse this HV let me know.
I'd love to test it with my fuel cell.

DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 13, 2008, 04:01:40 PM
    Meyer produced his plazma by injecting an ion stream along with his water.
The water was changed into hho gas as it was partially electrolysized passing through the nozzle which was set up as a capacitor in a series resonant circuit.  Plazma has an extremely energetic flow of electrons around a grouping of ionized atoms.  Instead of electron energy expressing itself in a field measured in protonic diameters it now is travelling around billions of neuclei grouped or held together by their magnetic dipole moments.  You got yourself plazma.  The electron kinetic energy is now emitting highly energetic displacement waves that are absorbed by the hho gas nitrogen and oxygen mixture.  This energy input causes the water to explode. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 13, 2008, 04:08:27 PM
Except, to efficently fracture water into Hydrogen and Oxygen you need to supply pulsed DC to the fuel cell.

If you can figure out a circuit to pulse this HV let me know.
I'd love to test it with my fuel cell.

DonL

Rectified AC is like pulsed DC, you get the unipolar waveform. The bifilar makes of this 2 unipolar waves, positive and negative of equal magnitude.
The only thing that needs to be done is to create a delay, or gap, between the pulsetrains.
But the cap in the above circuit flattens the unipolar wave from the rectifier, I guess.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 13, 2008, 04:09:43 PM
    Meyer produced his plazma by injecting an ion stream along with his water.
The water was changed into hho gas as it was partially electrolysized passing through the nozzle which was set up as a capacitor in a series resonant circuit.  Plazma has an extremely energetic flow of electrons around a grouping of ionized atoms.  Instead of electron energy expressing itself in a field measured in protonic diameters it now is travelling around billions of neuclei grouped or held together by their magnetic dipole moments.  You got yourself plazma.  The electron kinetic energy is now emitting highly energetic displacement waves that are absorbed by the hho gas nitrogen and oxygen mixture.  This energy input causes the water to explode. 
Which Meyer invention utilizes plasma?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 13, 2008, 04:53:10 PM
@alan

    I am not even sure if Meyer knew what was going on downstream of his injector.
I can see a high velocity stream of ionized gas creating a plazma in his reaction chamber though.  The people in this link are letting the ionized gas created by the ignition coil spark act as a seed plazma or lightning precursor.  The additional voltage applied causes the electrons to be superconducted by this seed plazma accross the spark gap in a vectored flow at near the speed of light.  This is when the kinetic energy of the electron does it's thing.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 13, 2008, 05:20:59 PM
@sparks
Quote
I can see a high velocity stream of ionized gas creating a plazma in his reaction chamber though.
Does such a video from Meyer exist? Please show me.
Isn't the ionstream created by the water itself, by means of self ionization?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 14, 2008, 04:05:53 AM
dear Greg,
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 14, 2008, 04:12:31 AM
dear Greg,
    just updating,  last night i test VexUs with power from line, without isolation trans and with resistances plug.
  result as you know, not have plasma ball, and i got electric shock when i touch car body.
   so i will try to find proper parts as your design.
Regard,
zhor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 14, 2008, 04:25:38 AM
Hi all,

VexUs circuit running the Bug found at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWXuFCHwp7Q

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 14, 2008, 04:34:56 AM
Hi.greg,

Great video, nice and simple !!

Looks like you do some serious work in that garage of yours , nice forklift !!


Thanks for sharing

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 14, 2008, 06:00:02 AM
Absolutely FANTASTIC Greg ;D

Was that only water you were spraying on the plugs?  since this is the first time I see the spark so red on video.

Top notch work man.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 14, 2008, 06:05:35 AM
Greg,

Excellent work. Sweet and simple.

Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 14, 2008, 06:56:39 AM
Absolutely FANTASTIC Greg ;D

Was that only water you were spraying on the plugs?  since this is the first time I see the spark so red on video.

Top notch work man.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Hi Luc,

Distilled water only.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: scalar wave on October 14, 2008, 04:12:53 PM
Greg,

love your work;

have you tried salt water spray?  If not, could you--it looks by others experiments, salt water can provide more energy out under plasma spark.

Also, in cold weather climates could be more useful as a "fuel"

Thanks

Got to run

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 14, 2008, 04:14:22 PM
Hi Luc,

Distilled water only.

Greg
Try ionized
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 14, 2008, 04:18:39 PM
Excellent!!!! Excellent!!!! Excellent!!!! Greg!!!!

I loved the time when you sprayed water on the plug!!!! Extremely awesome!!!!

I am going to buy the circuit elements and build it now!!!!
Is the circuit same as below?? or am I wrong????

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus.jpg)

Well done again!!
And thanks for sharing!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 14, 2008, 04:33:49 PM
  Try putting your spark plug in a microwave oven with a couple of cc's of tap water under it.  I did and the water flames are quite energetic as the microwave stimulation keeps the cascade ion effect going.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 14, 2008, 07:08:02 PM
Excellent!!!! Excellent!!!! Excellent!!!! Greg!!!!

I loved the time when you sprayed water on the plug!!!! Extremely awesome!!!!

I am going to buy the circuit elements and build it now!!!!
Is the circuit same as below?? or am I wrong????


Well done again!!
And thanks for sharing!!

Hi,

Yes it is that exact circuit.  The combination of R1 and C1is important ... so are the voltage and power ratings for these things.  A starting point might be 47uF for C1 and 100Ohms - 75Watt for R1.  Things change when you 'up' the voltage, etc.  You'll have to change R1 and / or C1.

The plugs must be non resistor.  If you run diode wires directly to plugs than old plug wires fine, else use solid plug wires (racing wires).

Thanks for your interest,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 14, 2008, 07:08:59 PM
Excellent!!!! Excellent!!!! Excellent!!!! Greg!!!!

I loved the time when you sprayed water on the plug!!!! Extremely awesome!!!!

I am going to buy the circuit elements and build it now!!!!
Is the circuit same as below?? or am I wrong????


Well done again!!
And thanks for sharing!!

Hi,

Yes it is that exact circuit.  The combination of R1 and C1is important ... so are the voltage and power ratings for these things.  A starting point might be 47uF for C1 and 100Ohms - 75Watt for R1.  Things change when you 'up' the voltage, etc.  You'll have to change R1 and / or C1.

The plugs must be non resistor.  If you run diode wires directly to plugs than old plug wires fine, else use solid plug wires (racing wires).

Thanks for your interest,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 14, 2008, 10:32:00 PM
Hi,

Yes it is that exact circuit.  The combination of R1 and C1is important ... so are the voltage and power ratings for these things.  A starting point might be 47uF for C1 and 100Ohms - 75Watt for R1.  Things change when you 'up' the voltage, etc.  You'll have to change R1 and / or C1.

The plugs must be non resistor.  If you run diode wires directly to plugs than old plug wires fine, else use solid plug wires (racing wires).

Thanks for your interest,

Greg

Emmm....
Maybe there will be some differences. Here in Greece, we use 230v AC. So I may not be able to find a 110v AC inverter.
So what rates of the capacitors and the resistor should I use?? For sure they must be over 500v but what capacity??

For sure plugs will be non resistor, and the diodes will be fed directly on the top of the spark plug. (too low budget to buy racing wires....don't forget I am still a high school student)

Thanks for the support,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 14, 2008, 10:38:04 PM
My latest VexUs V-8 video, 5,800 rpm this time!!! :o

Keep in mind that this test is performed discharging ONLY a single, 1.06uF capacitor with no "storage" cap. So the spark is a bit weaker than it will be when my ordered parts arrive. I will change to a 4.7uF as soon as they arrive via UPS, should be tomorrow. I am using a voltage doubler circuit with a pair of 120uF 330V flash caps, output is 326VDC. This test was performed at 5,800 RPM, decided to go ahead and step it up. I figure it will either GO or BLOW! ;D There should be NO reason you would need to tach up a Chevy 350 to 5,800 rpm, but IF I do decide to, at least I'll know I'm still stable. As I mentioned in another post, none of the components were even warm to the touch. 8) This is so much fun, it can hardly be considered work! Anyway, here's the U-tube link.

VexUs plasma--V-8 HEI--5,800 RPM   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAP5n5oeVPY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAP5n5oeVPY)

I forgot to spray water mist on it, I'll do that next time..............Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 14, 2008, 10:51:21 PM
My latest VexUs V-8 video, 5,800 rpm this time!!! :o

Keep in mind that this test is performed discharging ONLY a single, 1.06uF capacitor with no "storage" cap. So the spark is a bit weaker than it will be when my ordered parts arrive. I will change to a 4.7uF as soon as they arrive via UPS, should be tomorrow. I am using a voltage doubler circuit with a pair of 120uF 330V flash caps, output is 326VDC. This test was performed at 5,800 RPM, decided to go ahead and step it up. I figure it will either GO or BLOW! ;D There should be NO reason you would need to tach up a Chevy 350 to 5,800 rpm, but IF I do decide to, at least I'll know I'm still stable. As I mentioned in another post, none of the components were even warm to the touch. 8) This is so much fun, it can hardly be considered work! Anyway, here's the U-tube link.

VexUs plasma--V-8 HEI--5,800 RPM   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAP5n5oeVPY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAP5n5oeVPY)

I forgot to spray water mist on it, I'll do that next time..............Mike


Nice video, keep up the good work.......It's great to see others using the marine plugs, don't you love them....I do !!

Are your plugs getting hot ?

Aloha,

HV

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 14, 2008, 11:20:22 PM
Nope, and neither is any of the other components in the entire circuit. This is by far the easiest and simplest system yet! You can change up any values you choose in a matter of minutes and then continue testing. It's just AWESOME..............................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 14, 2008, 11:38:13 PM
Excellent job Mike ;D

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 14, 2008, 11:56:04 PM
Thanks Luc,

    I'll be posting another vid once I get this installed on the Suburban 350. The sky doesn't even seem to be a limit here!! This plasma spark STILL amazes me every time I see it sitting there bangin' away, especially here lately. More to come, just waiting on parts. Later...............................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 15, 2008, 12:04:36 AM
Hi Mike,

What year suburban ?  Carb. or fuel injection ?

Thanks,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 15, 2008, 12:15:34 AM
Hey HV,

    '96 Suburban, 5.7 Lt. fuel injected OBD2. There will be some ECM fooling required, no doubt. I'm game, at this point, for almost anything. I WILL do whatever it takes to win!! If the computer presents too much of a problem, I will yank it and kick it to the curb! I always liked a good carb better  anyway, no way it will beat me, not this far in the game. ;D Later................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 15, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
Hey HV,

    '96 Suburban, 5.7 Lt. fuel injected OBD2. There will need to be some ECM fooling required, no doubt. I'm game, at this point, for almost anything. I WILL do whatever it takes to win!! If the computer presents too much of a problem, I will yank it and kick it to the curb! I always liked a good carb better  anyway, no way it will beat me, not this far in the game. ;D Later................................Mike


Mike,

I like the way you think !!...I agree

Keep us posted .....I will soon try the "VexUs" circuit in my 93' Toyota T-100 ..

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 15, 2008, 12:32:36 AM
A small bench test just to see..................

    I just ran 5,800 rpm for about five minutes, then grabbed the end of the plug where all that FIRE just was, still cold. All the diodes and caps stayed cold as well. I'll do a longer test tomorrow, at a more reasonable rpm, (you shouldn't be making 5,800 rpm anyway unless you're running from the cops, which I strongly advise against!) to see if there is any heat built up anywhere. I don't really expect to find any at only 1uF though. I think this will be a very reliable, real world circuit.......................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 15, 2008, 12:40:48 AM
Emmm....
Maybe there will be some differences. Here in Greece, we use 230v AC. So I may not be able to find a 110v AC inverter.
So what rates of the capacitors and the resistor should I use?? For sure they must be over 500v but what capacity??

For sure plugs will be non resistor, and the diodes will be fed directly on the top of the spark plug. (too low budget to buy racing wires....don't forget I am still a high school student)

Thanks for the support,
Zissis

Hi Zissis (cool name)

Don't worry.  This stuff works better on higher voltage anyway.  Just cut down on C1 and increase R1 accordingly for an even greater effect at your higher 230VAC voltage!

Try C1 = 10uF to 22uF and R1 = 200 to 600 ohms, and around 80 - 120 Watts  (maybe a light bulb).  You'll have to test for heat at run time.

For cost consideration, try diode strings instead of HV diodes (microwave replacement diodes are somewhat costly).

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on October 15, 2008, 02:27:36 AM
@gmeast - Hi.  Just watched your VW Beetle video - not sure as to the 'groups' current progress, is this actually running on water, or are you just taking its normal HV and 'modifying' it via the VexUs circuitry to show us what the 'running' plasma modification looks like?  Although running an ICE just on water must be the ultimate aim, I have an old '94 Peugeot that I am really curious to see how using the plasma spark circuirty would effect its normal fuel consumption!  Thanks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 15, 2008, 04:09:13 AM
Thanks Luc,

More to come, just waiting on parts. Later...............................................Mike

Ya ::), I'm also still waiting for parts: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=270276765928  see my name in the Purchases list. Paid for these diodes September 21st and still aren't in yet. Must be on the slow boat from China :P

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 15, 2008, 06:54:01 AM
Hi Zissis (cool name)

Don't worry.  This stuff works better on higher voltage anyway.  Just cut down on C1 and increase R1 accordingly for an even greater effect at your higher 230VAC voltage!

Try C1 = 10uF to 22uF and R1 = 200 to 600 ohms, and around 80 - 120 Watts  (maybe a light bulb).  You'll have to test for heat at run time.

For cost consideration, try diode strings instead of HV diodes (microwave replacement diodes are somewhat costly).

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg!! (I like your name too)
Friends call me Zis..!! ;)

Ok, I will order these parts. What about diodes?? 1N5408 are ok??
Test vehicle will be a Volvo 440 fuel injected (my father's). No plans for water, just to decrease fuel consumption. The plasma ignition water car project, will be an other car, like a small suzuki, or a cheap old mazda. For sure costed not over 600-700 dollars. I am going to buy it this summer since school will be over for me!!

Thanks a lot for all of your help!!
Zissis!


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Gustav22 on October 15, 2008, 08:48:16 AM
Hello all,

thanks to the work of several experimenters it seems to become fairly "easy" to produce a reliable plasma spark.

It has also been conclusively demonstrated, that this spark can interact with water mist and produce a pressure wave which can displace a piston.

Such a water explosion seems to happen quite easy at ambient air pressure but seems difficult to achieve it at the elevated pressure in an ICE (internal combustion engine) when the piston is somewhere near TDC.

If I understand UncleFester's postings correctly, the electrical energy of the plasma spark has to be increased in order to achieve the water explosion at conditions of elevated pressure.

In order to ignite the water mist in an ICE with the relatively low electrical power levels currently available from the VexUs and Nexus and similar circuits, I was thinking that it might be beneficial, if one could find a way to decrease the pressure in an ICE.

I was thinking that maybe this is possible by (partially) blocking or restricting the air intake of the engine. If this can be achieved the pressure inside the combustion chamber would be less than normal, thus facilitating the explosion of the the water mist.

Good luck and thanks to all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 15, 2008, 03:40:11 PM
Hi Greg!! (I like your name too)
Friends call me Zis..!! ;)

Ok, I will order these parts. What about diodes?? 1N5408 are ok??
Test vehicle will be a Volvo 440 fuel injected (my father's). No plans for water, just to decrease fuel consumption. The plasma ignition water car project, will be an other car, like a small suzuki, or a cheap old mazda. For sure costed not over 600-700 dollars. I am going to buy it this summer since school will be over for me!!

Thanks a lot for all of your help!!
Zissis!


Hi Zis,

5408 diodes come in a variety of flavors.  I have always used the UF series (ultra-fast) but for strings 1N5408 is what everyone is using ... I think ... 1000V x 3A ... right?

Also caution, I have not tried VexUs on electronic system yet,  I intend to, also on coil packs.  Forum member 'jstadwater' on Energetic Forum (topic: Water Sparkplug) has been testing for a V-8 and has diagnostic equipment and indicated there are NO damaging EMF's produced by the VexUs circuit.  You should also sign on there and see his work.  He's done a great job with my circuit ... I'm very excited!

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HaroldCR on October 15, 2008, 05:46:49 PM

 Sorry this is just a "Little" off topic, but.

Quote
Please somebody should tell the stevie1001 on that forum that he needs to catch up a little bit..

rfsimoes wrote this, to a response to my last post, about some GOOD info on another site.

  Well, Stevie has successfully ran his B&S lawnmower on STRAIGHT HYDROXY !!!

  No fuel tank on the engine. It's directly off his waterfuel cell.

  I can't view videos or wmv's, so, here's a link for y'all to check out.

  http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,648.0.html (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,648.0.html)

 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 15, 2008, 06:24:27 PM
Hi Zis,

5408 diodes come in a variety of flavors.  I have always used the UF series (ultra-fast) but for strings 1N5408 is what everyone is using ... I think ... 1000V x 3A ... right?

Also caution, I have not tried VexUs on electronic system yet,  I intend to, also on coil packs.  Forum member 'jstadwater' on Energetic Forum (topic: Water Sparkplug) has been testing for a V-8 and has diagnostic equipment and indicated there are NO damaging EMF's produced by the VexUs circuit.  You should also sign on there and see his work.  He's done a great job with my circuit ... I'm very excited!

Greg

Hi Greg

As you said, as everyone uses it, 5408 might be ok. If not, they are cheap, so nothing to matter for if they blow up....!!

Anyway I asked for prices:
100x 1N5408 diodes
A couple of 10μF capacitors, two 22μF, two 47μF and two 470μF
For the resistor, I plan to use a light bulb, or a wall potentiometer. They are at least 60W
An 150VA 1:1 isolation transformer
A Full Wave Bridge Rectifier 400V 10A
12VDC to 220VAC inverter, quite cheap found here -->  "Ebay's Link" (http://"http://cgi.ebay.com/500W-Car-12V-DC-to-220V-AC-Power-Inverter-Adapter-USB_W0QQitemZ290267096352QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290267096352&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14")  (cost+shipping to Greece = 36$)

These are the basics for now. The others are easy to find.

Btw I've seen 'jstadwater' 's replication, and really liked it. Very stable circuit, and very nice videos, too!!!!

More updates to come....

Zissis
"Here is my blog" (http://"http://zissisprojects.wordpress.com")

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 15, 2008, 08:43:08 PM
Hi Greg

As you said, as everyone uses it, 5408 might be ok. If not, they are cheap, so nothing to matter for if they blow up....!!

Anyway I asked for prices:
100x 1N5408 diodes
A couple of 10μF capacitors, two 22μF, two 47μF and two 470μF
For the resistor, I plan to use a light bulb, or a wall potentiometer. They are at least 60W
An 150VA 1:1 isolation transformer
A Full Wave Bridge Rectifier 400V 10A
12VDC to 220VAC inverter, quite cheap found here -->  "Ebay's Link" (http://"http://cgi.ebay.com/500W-Car-12V-DC-to-220V-AC-Power-Inverter-Adapter-USB_W0QQitemZ290267096352QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290267096352&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14")  (cost+shipping to Greece = 36$)

These are the basics for now. The others are easy to find.

Btw I've seen 'jstadwater' 's replication, and really liked it. Very stable circuit, and very nice videos, too!!!!

More updates to come....

Zissis
"Here is my blog" (http://"http://zissisprojects.wordpress.com")



Hi Zis,

Very excellent!  Don't forget things like fuses and fuse holder to protect the transformer.

Your blog does not come up.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 15, 2008, 08:56:50 PM
Ok.... i had a mistake in the links....

Inverter from ebay.: Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/500W-Car-12V-DC-to-220V-AC-Power-Inverter-Adapter-USB_W0QQitemZ290267096352QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290267096352&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
My blog.: Link (http://zissisprojects.wordpress.com) (Nothing special. Just what I have constructed so far.)

@Greg:
What fuse should I put?? And where?? Before or after the inverter?? What Amperage??

Thanks
Zissis!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 15, 2008, 09:38:54 PM
Ok.... i had a mistake in the links....

Inverter from ebay.: Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/500W-Car-12V-DC-to-220V-AC-Power-Inverter-Adapter-USB_W0QQitemZ290267096352QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290267096352&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
My blog.: Link (http://zissisprojects.wordpress.com) (Nothing special. Just what I have constructed so far.)

@Greg:
What fuse should I put?? And where?? Before or after the inverter?? What Amperage??

Thanks
Zissis!!

Hi Zis,

I would protect #1) vehicle wiring so one fuse into the inverter 4A to 6A and #2) transformer from overload so 2A out of transformer.  Safe to start with.  Fuses are cheap.  The inverter may come with fuse and/or recommendation(s).

Thanks for links,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 15, 2008, 09:45:30 PM
Hi Zis,

I would protect #1) vehicle wiring so one fuse into the inverter 4A to 6A and #2) transformer from overload so 2A out of transformer.  Safe to start with.  Fuses are cheap.  The inverter may come with fuse and/or recommendation(s).

Thanks for links,

Greg

Ok Greg.!
Maybe tomorrow I will order the parts, if not, maybe in a few days. I will keep any progress posted!!

Thanks for your patience on answering ANY (maybe silly) question I have had!!

Zissis!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 15, 2008, 09:53:58 PM
Have you all considered something??
 
If we finally win. And succeed to run a regular Internal Combustion Engine in plain water, stably and reliably.

Have you ever thought of this thread to become famous?? And all T.V. programs discussing for it?? Wouldn't that be beautiful!!

Just a thought....
Keep posting....!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 15, 2008, 11:08:50 PM
Hi Greg

As you said, as everyone uses it, 5408 might be ok. If not, they are cheap, so nothing to matter for if they blow up....!!

Anyway I asked for prices:
100x 1N5408 diodes
A couple of 10μF capacitors, two 22μF, two 47μF and two 470μF
For the resistor, I plan to use a light bulb, or a wall potentiometer. They are at least 60W
An 150VA 1:1 isolation transformer
A Full Wave Bridge Rectifier 400V 10A
12VDC to 220VAC inverter, quite cheap found here -->  "Ebay's Link" (http://"http://cgi.ebay.com/500W-Car-12V-DC-to-220V-AC-Power-Inverter-Adapter-USB_W0QQitemZ290267096352QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290267096352&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14")  (cost+shipping to Greece = 36$)

These are the basics for now. The others are easy to find.

Btw I've seen 'jstadwater' 's replication, and really liked it. Very stable circuit, and very nice videos, too!!!!

More updates to come....

Zissis
"Here is my blog" (http://"http://zissisprojects.wordpress.com")



Hi Zis,

You need to do a little research on the isolation transformer.  The one I have specifically says 115VAC INPUT and 115VAC OUTPUT, 150 VA.  So you might try and determine if that will work at 230VAC.  Usually they are matched for 60Hz,  VAC and VA.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: scalar wave on October 16, 2008, 12:09:05 AM
Greg,

have you tried spraying salt water on the plasma spark?

Supposed to be an increase in power output and won't freeze on the low temperature climates if used as a fuel. 

The plasma spark is theorized to release a little Hydrogen, and Oxygen and also combust it to give a little more heat and energy to the process.  Would be interested to see if that's true.

Also, folks are looking for isolation transformers, and I've seen you can make one with two MOT (Microwave Oven Transformers, back to back).  Connect the 110 to primary, connect secondaries together, and draw off the power from the 2nd MOT primary; I guess you could hook up 110 to secondary, then link primaries, and then draw off of the second MOT secondary, links are via the EM field.

Anyway just a thought.  I've been a Joe Cell a holic and am now looking at this plasma spark process.  I'm looking at the similar characteristics of the processes, sometimes just reverse processes.

Try the salt water spray on a video please. 

Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 12:38:07 AM
Hi Zis,

You need to do a little research on the isolation transformer.  The one I have specifically says 115VAC INPUT and 115VAC OUTPUT, 150 VA.  So you might try and determine if that will work at 230VAC.  Usually they are matched for 60Hz,  VAC and VA.

Greg

Hi Zis,

Greg is right! a 115v transformer will not work efficiently if you put 220v in, the coil does not have enough winding and will act much like a short. I know because I tried it. I have a 220v inverter and I won two 115v/115v 1:1 isolation transformer on eBay for $1. each. However it works if I use both and wire each side in series. It also give a 115v center tap.

It maybe be cheaper to find two identical 220v MOT from a repair shop or city dump. You lightly cut the welds on each sides to open them up and take out the inductors and combine both primaries in one and re weld.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 12:45:57 AM
I Just want to inject a question, to see if any good ideas are out there.

Plasma Arc, wonderful ckt, replicated and adjusted.  This was all easy.

NOW.  The modern ignition coil actually has no ground connection to the HV side of
the coil.  The Two wires from that side of the transformer are both connected to plugs.
The basic concept has been around a while, and the problem that arises is:  One plug
will be positive and the other negative.  Distributer Ign is fine.  If no Dist., I assume a
dual, half wave rect. on the inverter is the only way to go.  (OR 2 inverters, but naaaa.)

This means that the diodes are reversed on the off set of plugs and I am wondering if
anyone else has started testing this?

By the way, running a basic B&S ICE isn't as hard as it seems.  I'm about to try without
the Cell, just opening the main jet and feeding water.  If it works, I'll start posting the
garbage ckts I'm using, but as I want to get to modern engines, this coil polarity has me
wondering.  (If it's just a case of Plug deposits, then I'll mig a ball of stainless onto the
center electrode, but I've already welded a crosswire, so I wanted to use the premade plugs
before making them different.

Any Suggestions?  Any testing done?  I'll only post my positive results so as to not clog
this thread up with my junk.  (I'm on sabatical from TPU work, and already have a modified
B&S for Hydroxy operation.  Now trying to run it on Water.  If that works, this coil problem
will be the next hurdle for more modern engines without distributers.  I could eliminate the
problem by grounding One plug wire and doubling the number of coils, but that is the hard
way out and I would like to avoid it if possible.  The standard drive CKt probably couldn't drive
two coils, etc.  Want to stay as stock as possible.)


Hi Loner,

We have not tested much on modern engines, it is just starting and Greg's new simple VexUs circuit has just been released. So we need testers. Please replicate and post your findings

@everyone: please note that we are not able to run a combustion engine on water alone is using these circuits. However we are noticing RPM gain and easy cold start by using the plasma spark and we could start testing with emulsifying small amounts of water in the carburetor via a cold fog humidifier or ultrasonic pound misters or just dripping water in a tube warped around the exhaust to crate water vapor and lead it in the intake.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 16, 2008, 08:02:37 AM
@Loner,

>>Said:
>>The modern ignition coil actually has no ground connection to the HV side of the coil.

Can you post a simple drawing on how modern cars ignition is made?

As I understand you, there is two spark plugs at the high side of the coil.
Is there two coils to get 4 spark plugs going?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 16, 2008, 02:28:01 PM
Hi all

Anyone looking for cheap 1N5408 in UK, here is a seller on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400000828857&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123

I though it was a listing mistake, I asked the seller and he confirmed that the price is for 100s.

Too bad I already bought lots from another seller  :-[
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 16, 2008, 02:54:35 PM
Hi Zis,

Greg is right! a 115v transformer will not work efficiently if you put 220v in, the coil does not have enough winding and will act much like a short. I know because I tried it. I have a 220v inverter and I won two 115v/115v 1:1 isolation transformer on eBay for $1. each. However it works if I use both and wire each side in series. It also give a 115v center tap.

It maybe be cheaper to find two identical 220v MOT from a repair shop or city dump. You lightly cut the welds on each sides to open them up and take out the inductors and combine both primaries in one and re weld.

Luc

Hi Luc!

You are right. I saw the prices for 220v isolation transformers and they are not cheap. Maybe I should go to a repair shop, or an appliance recycling place to find some used transformers from microwave ovens.

Thanks,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 04:20:49 PM
Hi all

Anyone looking for cheap 1N5408 in UK, here is a seller on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400000828857&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123

I though it was a listing mistake, I asked the seller and he confirmed that the price is for 100s.

Too bad I already bought lots from another seller  :-[

Thanks for sharing this link Chris3. I may have to re-order mine since it's been 25 days I ordered some from China and are not in yet :(.

Good find ;D and thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 16, 2008, 04:35:30 PM
Thanks for sharing this link Chris3. I may have to re-order mine since it's been 25 days I ordered some from China and are not in yet :(.

Good find ;D and thanks for sharing.

Luc

LOL yeah, I just paid mine 4 times more.

By the way hows the half geet project comming along? Im gonna build something similiar, hopefully very soon, I need to get the plasma working perfectly first ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on October 16, 2008, 04:47:20 PM
There seems to be nothing else that is particularily cheap from that supplier.  He also lists the same part as a transistor, for a higher price and with a quantity of 25.  Beware...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1N5408-Transistor-x-25-pcs_W0QQitemZ160153629542QQihZ006QQcategoryZ4663QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1N5408-Transistor-x-25-pcs_W0QQitemZ160153629542QQihZ006QQcategoryZ4663QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 05:57:20 PM
LOL yeah, I just paid mine 4 times more.

By the way hows the half geet project comming along? Im gonna build something similiar, hopefully very soon, I need to get the plasma working perfectly first ;D

Well electronic components availability are always a problem in my city and preventing me from completing my tests. I'm waiting for a 4N35 Optocoupler for my SCR trigger circuit which a local store said would take only about 4 days to get in and that was 2 weeks ago and not in yet. I can't build the VexUs circuit since I'm also waiting for diodes to come in any day ::)

I'm glad to see other are moving along and getting results. Hopefully I will have something to show for next week :P

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 06:04:29 PM
There seems to be nothing else that is particularily cheap from that supplier.  He also lists the same part as a transistor, for a higher price and with a quantity of 25.  Beware...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1N5408-Transistor-x-25-pcs_W0QQitemZ160153629542QQihZ006QQcategoryZ4663QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1N5408-Transistor-x-25-pcs_W0QQitemZ160153629542QQihZ006QQcategoryZ4663QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262)

Thanks Sprocket for bringing this up. It makes no sens ???... a diode part number and calls it transistor???

Chris31, can you check with him to see what is going on here. His feedback is 100% though

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 16, 2008, 06:04:46 PM
  I think the flyback transformers in old computer monitors and television sets have hv diodes in em. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 06:20:39 PM
  I think the flyback transformers in old computer monitors and television sets have hv diodes in em. 


I didn't know that. But wouldn't it be difficult to get at them since they are molded in ???

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on October 16, 2008, 06:53:39 PM
PCB mounted HV diodes (several KV) used in TV/monitors can still be bought - here's one source where I have bought spares in the past.

http://www.donberg.ie/ (http://www.donberg.ie/)

Also, EHT 'stick diodes' (20KV, see pic.) can also be found - Cricklewood Electronics still sell them.  These can simply be removed from the flyback transformer by unclipping the EHT cable that use these types.  They may not be 'beefy-enough' current-wise for this particular application though...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 16, 2008, 07:22:23 PM
Hi Zis,

Greg is right! a 115v transformer will not work efficiently if you put 220v in, the coil does not have enough winding and will act much like a short. I know because I tried it. I have a 220v inverter and I won two 115v/115v 1:1 isolation transformer on eBay for $1. each. However it works if I use both and wire each side in series. It also give a 115v center tap.

It maybe be cheaper to find two identical 220v MOT from a repair shop or city dump. You lightly cut the welds on each sides to open them up and take out the inductors and combine both primaries in one and re weld.

Luc


Yes, this should work fine, but:

Combining two same primaries in one, as you say, the new modified transformer's winding will not be 1:1 exactly....
Let's say that we have 2 transformers with same N in primary. So, N1=N2. There is a law for AC transformers, which says Npri/Nsec = Vpri/Vsec. so we need to have on the new transformer Npri/Nsec = 1 (where N=the number of windings and V=the electro-diegertic power (volts)) in order to have the same secondary volts as primary volts. But if considered that the primary wires have the same length, this will result when we will coil the new secondary (old primary from the other transformer), we will have less amount of windings on the new transformer's secondary, and so less volts [concerning to this law of transformers]. Thus the factor will not be 1:1.

I can't explain better....  :-\

Zissis

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 16, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
Anyone with transformer knowledge would like to help out here please step in.

This stuff is beyond my ::)

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cell1 on October 16, 2008, 08:18:06 PM
Connect two 115V isolation transformers in this way.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 16, 2008, 11:45:27 PM
Connect two 115V isolation transformers in this way.

Hi all,

Thanks everyone, Luc, cell1 for jumping in to help Zis with the isolation transformer issue.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 17, 2008, 12:03:45 AM
Hi Loner,

We have not tested much on modern engines, it is just starting and Greg's new simple VexUs circuit has just been released. So we need testers. Please replicate and post your findings

@everyone: please note that we are not able to run a combustion engine on water alone is using these circuits. However we are noticing RPM gain and easy cold start by using the plasma spark and we could start testing with emulsifying small amounts of water in the carburetor via a cold fog humidifier or ultrasonic pound misters or just dripping water in a tube warped around the exhaust to crate water vapor and lead it in the intake.

Thanks

Luc

Hi Luc,

I agree.  It's time to start tesing various fuels and combinations of emulsions and even GEET.  I'm ready!

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 05:52:23 AM

Why are you trying to use an isolation transformer?  If an inverter is being used to power the circuit, you will be VERY hard pressed to find one that uses the Auto-transformer function, which is the only way the inverter wouldn't already be FULLY isolated.  Thatdoesn't mean that the manufacturer of the unit didn't specifically make internal connections to include surge suppression, etc.  Simply removing as much of the inverter circuitry as needed toclean-up the output suppression, and any connection from source to output, will provide plenty
of isolation.

Thanks in advance. 
Art.

Hi Art, I do agree it sounds kind of overkill but if we go through all the posts you will find that over 20 inverters have been reported fried and that is only counting those who reported it. Modern inverters have some protection but maybe not enough or fast enough as many have found. So to better protect your inverter we recommend an isolation transformer. The choice is really up to the builder ;)

I'm sure many of the experimenters will be coming up with better ways then using an inverter to charge the capacitor once the circuit evolves as many will find the benefits of higher voltages and less capacitance...  just give it a bit more time and I think inverters will not even be a choice.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 06:05:27 AM
Hi Luc,

I agree.  It's time to start tesing various fuels and combinations of emulsions and even GEET.  I'm ready!

Peace,

Greg

Thanks Greg for your willingness to develop.

So what do you think of using exhaust heat to create superheated steam. See Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czoxOqZ8rxk

If we introduce this in the carburetor inlet it could also help the fuel to vaporize before it reaches the intake valve which would be a big bonus once again.

If I remember the bugs have an exhaust heat rise tube that goes through the intake manifold. I wounder if we could use it in any way ???

Just thinking ::)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 06:08:31 AM
Connect two 115V isolation transformers in this way.

Thanks cell1 for posting this diagram. This is exactly what I did with my two 115v isolation transformers to work on 220v.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 06:50:33 AM
@everyone,

for those studying the spark effect, Aaron of the Energetic Forum has posted this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N78E_qA4ws0

Very interesting

Here is his comment:

I used a choke that was made of a spool of magnet wire.
It limited current on the ground side of the spark plug.
It make just as bright of bursts but with no noise at all except
for a little sound..most of the sound is the wire jiggling on
the spool since it isn't tied down.

So maybe we have a new kind of light source that may consumes mostly voltage since the choke limited the amps.

Wouldn't that be great ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 17, 2008, 06:52:30 AM
@Loner,

Thank you for the drawing and explanation.

>>Why are you trying to use an isolation transformer?

I think the main reason people use an isolation transformer is because the small inverters
has a mosfet output stage to make a "simulated" AC voltage. This output stage is prone
to blow up if the inverter gets the initial coil pulse on the input. Since there is a diode string
(or one HV or several HV diodes) connected for minus voltage to the high side of the ignition coil
then there is a path for the positive high voltage pulse to travel back to the inverter and fry the
mosfet transistors. A isolation transformer will prevent that from happening.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Spewing on October 17, 2008, 09:34:06 AM
Anyone with transformer knowledge would like to help out here please step in.

This stuff is beyond my ::)

Thanks

Luc

Your circuit has been updated and is at my forum.

Br, Hydrocars.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 17, 2008, 02:58:51 PM
     @gotoluc

   There is so much mass in the choke coil that the voltage says screw it I'm gonna flow along the surface like wave energy flows along the surface of the ocean.  The voltage still gets to the sparkgap but it comes in the form of a wave instead of slow flow.   In electrical terms the transient current is suppressed by the choke.  Since the discharge technique employed results in mostly transient current we get voltage to the load not requiring current flow through the conductor.  Electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light whereas electrical currents flow millimeters per second.  I like speed.
   Meyer used chokes on both sides of his hho gas generator.  This was to make sure that the wave fronts appear across the spark gap/capacitor/fuelcell/etc. to maximize charge seperation.
       
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 17, 2008, 04:59:28 PM
@Loner,

Thank you for the drawing and explanation.

>>Why are you trying to use an isolation transformer?

I think the main reason people use an isolation transformer is because the small inverters
has a mosfet output stage to make a "simulated" AC voltage. This output stage is prone
to blow up if the inverter gets the initial coil pulse on the input. Since there is a diode string
(or one HV or several HV diodes) connected for minus voltage to the high side of the ignition coil
then there is a path for the positive high voltage pulse to travel back to the inverter and fry the
mosfet transistors. A isolation transformer will prevent that from happening.

Groundloop.

Hi all,

Correct, and on top that, with many of these types of circuits there cannot be any solid reference to either battery 'plus' or battery 'minus' until the time that a flow path is provided by the spark in the gap.  Up until that point the CDI or discharge Cap(s) are floating around and charging up.  The isolation transformer allows this to happen.  It is non-intuitive and one of the most non-mainstream engineering principles I've ever become familiar with.  It's awesome !

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 17, 2008, 06:16:19 PM
Hello all,

Just completed another bench test run for 30 minutes continuous at 2,250 rpm. Closely related to highway speed at cruising. Ambient temperature today = 92.5 degrees F. Temperatures on ALL components pretty much peaked within the first ten minutes of operation and never went a single degree higher throughout the remainder of the test.

Here's the setup: discharge caps = three oil filled MW caps wired parallel, total capacitence = 2.5uF, lowest voltage rating of the 3 is 1,750VAC
MAX recorded temp = 96.5 deg. F. at top of caps

Voltage TRIPLER using three electrolytic caps 120uF 450V and three 1N5408 diodes, 1000V rated at 3A, voltage output = 460VDC
MAX recorded temp = 98 deg. F. at top of 1st cap. Cascading temp drop to 3rd cap in circuit at 93 deg. F.
Diodes remained at same temp throughout test.

Storage cap between tripler circuit and resistor is 15uF 450V
MAX recorded temp = 98 deg. F. at top of cap

Resistor used is 100 watt bulb = 10.4 ohms
Well lit, continuous brightness fluctuations throughout test.

HV blocking diodes at each spark plug are NTE517, 15KV rated at 550mA. Used two diodes parallel at each plug. Spec sheet says operating range is up to 302 deg. F.
MAX recorded temp = 120 deg. F. at cathode end, anode end varied from 5 to 10 degrees cooler than cathode end

Spark plugs are "COPPER MARINE" by Champion 827 M L76V
MAX recorded temp = 99 deg. F.

And when I sprayed water mist on the plugs..........OH MY GOD!!! The intensity went to "WAY COOL"

This video demonstrates the exact components used for the recorded stats I posted above from running the circuit at about 2,250 to 2,300 rpm for 30 continuous minutes.

My only regret is not having a good enough camera to capture the effect as it is in person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMOUQTTM6w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMOUQTTM6w)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 17, 2008, 07:02:58 PM
Hello all,

Just completed another bench test run for 30 minutes continuous at 2,250 rpm. Closely related to highway speed at cruising. Ambient temperature today = 92.5 degrees F. Temperatures on ALL components pretty much peaked within the first ten minutes of operation and never went a single degree higher throughout the remainder of the test.

Here's the setup: discharge caps = three oil filled MW caps wired parallel, total capacitence = 2.5uF, lowest voltage rating of the 3 is 1,750VAC
MAX recorded temp = 96.5 deg. F. at top of caps

Voltage TRIPLER using three electrolytic caps 120uF 450V and three 1N5408 diodes, 1000V rated at 3A, voltage output = 460VDC
MAX recorded temp = 98 deg. F. at top of 1st cap. Cascading temp drop to 3rd cap in circuit at 93 deg. F.
Diodes remained at same temp throughout test.

Storage cap between tripler circuit and resistor is 15uF 450V
MAX recorded temp = 98 deg. F. at top of cap

Resistor used is 100 watt bulb = 10.4 ohms
Well lit, continuous brightness fluctuations throughout test.

HV blocking diodes at each spark plug are NTE517, 15KV rated at 550mA. Used two diodes parallel at each plug. Spec sheet says operating range is up to 302 deg. F.
MAX recorded temp = 120 deg. F. at cathode end, anode end varied from 5 to 10 degrees cooler than cathode end

Spark plugs are "COPPER MARINE" by Champion 827 M L76V
MAX recorded temp = 99 deg. F.

And when I sprayed water mist on the plugs..........OH MY GOD!!! The intensity went to "WAY COOL"

This video demonstrates the exact components used for the recorded stats I posted above from running the circuit at about 2,250 to 2,300 rpm for 30 continuous minutes.

My only regret is not having a good enough camera to capture the effect as it is in person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMOUQTTM6w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMOUQTTM6w)

Very exciting ... thanks.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 07:09:33 PM
Your circuit has been updated and is at my forum.

Br, Hydrocars.

Hi Spewing,

can you post a link to your forum topic so we can see.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
     @gotoluc

   There is so much mass in the choke coil that the voltage says screw it I'm gonna flow along the surface like wave energy flows along the surface of the ocean.  The voltage still gets to the sparkgap but it comes in the form of a wave instead of slow flow.   In electrical terms the transient current is suppressed by the choke.  Since the discharge technique employed results in mostly transient current we get voltage to the load not requiring current flow through the conductor.  Electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light whereas electrical currents flow millimeters per second.  I like speed.
   Meyer used chokes on both sides of his hho gas generator.  This was to make sure that the wave fronts appear across the spark gap/capacitor/fuelcell/etc. to maximize charge seperation.

Thanks for sharing this great explanation sparks ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 17, 2008, 07:20:01 PM
Hello all,

Just completed another bench test run for 30 minutes continuous at 2,250 rpm. Closely related to highway speed at cruising. Ambient temperature today = 92.5 degrees F. Temperatures on ALL components pretty much peaked within the first ten minutes of operation and never went a single degree higher throughout the remainder of the test.

Here's the setup: discharge caps = three oil filled MW caps wired parallel, total capacitence = 2.5uF, lowest voltage rating of the 3 is 1,750VAC
MAX recorded temp = 96.5 deg. F. at top of caps

Voltage TRIPLER using three electrolytic caps 120uF 450V and three 1N5408 diodes, 1000V rated at 3A, voltage output = 460VDC
MAX recorded temp = 98 deg. F. at top of 1st cap. Cascading temp drop to 3rd cap in circuit at 93 deg. F.
Diodes remained at same temp throughout test.

Storage cap between tripler circuit and resistor is 15uF 450V
MAX recorded temp = 98 deg. F. at top of cap

Resistor used is 100 watt bulb = 10.4 ohms
Well lit, continuous brightness fluctuations throughout test.

HV blocking diodes at each spark plug are NTE517, 15KV rated at 550mA. Used two diodes parallel at each plug. Spec sheet says operating range is up to 302 deg. F.
MAX recorded temp = 120 deg. F. at cathode end, anode end varied from 5 to 10 degrees cooler than cathode end

Spark plugs are "COPPER MARINE" by Champion 827 M L76V
MAX recorded temp = 99 deg. F.

And when I sprayed water mist on the plugs..........OH MY GOD!!! The intensity went to "WAY COOL"

This video demonstrates the exact components used for the recorded stats I posted above from running the circuit at about 2,250 to 2,300 rpm for 30 continuous minutes.

My only regret is not having a good enough camera to capture the effect as it is in person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMOUQTTM6w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMOUQTTM6w)

Awesome work jstadwater ;D,

I think she is ready to go on your V8 350 now ;)

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 18, 2008, 12:18:54 AM
@Greg and anyone interested,

I've been thinking about the isolation transformer cost, availability and all this. It seems to be the only down side at this time for replicators.

I have an idea ;D... MOT's are easily available and can be next to free. When you think of it ::)... it is an isolation transformer!... just at a much higher voltage on the secondary side. I propose we move your VexUs circuit to a new level... HV that is. Use a MOT as isolation transformer and feed the HV directly to the circuit. Obviously you would have to drop you Capacitance value by much and make your FWBR with HV diodes but I think that would be the only thing you may need to change. Also many have been noticing the benefit of Higher Voltages.

So what do you think of this idea? Are you willing to test it? if so I would suggest using a Variac to start at a low voltage and slowly raise it if it works. Maybe the .7uf to 1uf microwave oven capacitors could end up being the correct size for the circuit?

Just an idea. Let me know what you think of this.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: scalar wave on October 18, 2008, 04:33:55 AM
JSTADWATER,
GREAT V8 PLASMA SPARK WITH WATER SPRAY.

PLEASE TRY A COMPARISON WITH SALT WATER SPRAY -- OTHERS HAVE SUGGESTED YOU GET A SLIGHT ELECTROLYSIS ACTION ALONG WITH THE WATER EXPLOSION.

NOBODY RESPONDED ON THE MOT TO MOT ISOLATION TRANSFORMER OH WELL TOO BAD.

MIKE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 18, 2008, 04:51:24 AM
JSTADWATER,
GREAT V8 PLASMA SPARK WITH WATER SPRAY.

PLEASE TRY A COMPARISON WITH SALT WATER SPRAY -- OTHERS HAVE SUGGESTED YOU GET A SLIGHT ELECTROLYSIS ACTION ALONG WITH THE WATER EXPLOSION.

NOBODY RESPONDED ON THE MOT TO MOT ISOLATION TRANSFORMER OH WELL TOO BAD.

MIKE



Thanks for the MOT to MOT isolation transformer idea, have you tried it yet ??

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 18, 2008, 06:24:06 AM
@All,

I believe i have found an inexpensive supplier for isolation transformers...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120132004551

They are 1:1 120v in 120v out , 120w


Hope this helps.

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 18, 2008, 08:10:55 AM
@Greg and anyone interested,

I've been thinking about the isolation transformer cost, availability and all this. It seems to be the only down side at this time for replicators.

I have an idea ;D... MOT's are easily available and can be next to free. When you think of it ::)... it is an isolation transformer!... just at a much higher voltage on the secondary side. I propose we move your VexUs circuit to a new level... HV that is. Use a MOT as isolation transformer and feed the HV directly to the circuit. Obviously you would have to drop you Capacitance value by much and make your FWBR with HV diodes but I think that would be the only thing you may need to change. Also many have been noticing the benefit of Higher Voltages.

So what do you think of this idea? Are you willing to test it? if so I would suggest using a Variac to start at a low voltage and slowly raise it if it works. Maybe the .7uf to 1uf microwave oven capacitors could end up being the correct size for the circuit?

Just an idea. Let me know what you think of this.

Luc


Hey Luc!

Very good idea!!
In the past, when I saw your video testing between HV and LV capacitors, it passed my mind to use a "MOT" as a part of the circuit.
It would be really good and beneficial to step up same volts. Beneficial because the spark will be more stable and way bigger as seen in your video!!
Something else that would change in the circuit, (i am not sure) may be the resistor. More Ω will be needed, so less power consumed. Just a thought.... I am not sure about that.


Thanks Luc!!
Zissis

P.S: Gotoluc's video testing Capacitance vs. Voltage is here: Link to Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJVbA8Upvs)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 18, 2008, 11:16:50 AM
@All,

Revizal on youtube has ran Gregs "VexUs" circuit on a modern SUV.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-pI0qb-Bz4

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 18, 2008, 07:26:17 PM
Hi all,

Wanted to post a VexUs circuit configuration update. I have moved the current limiter to a more logical location and in so doing made a hard mate between the FWB + and the chassis ground. The potentials are the same as the original and the theory is the same. What I've done should make filtering, shielding, instrumenting and all other interfacing easier to do.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_3.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cell1 on October 18, 2008, 09:33:14 PM
Probably you already now this link:
http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/2067735.htm
I found interesting that is specifying about how highest level is the voltage into injector.

Someone asked about the inductance of microwave oven transformer:
Primary: 286mH, resistance 1.9ohm
Secondary: 36H, resistance 160ohm
It is for 220V a.c.

Best regards,
Cell1.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 18, 2008, 10:05:56 PM
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the circuit update.

I have a comment not on the R1 placement but the CDI cap ground. My thinking is that when the CDI discharges, the discharge current path is from the plug center electrode, thru the NTE517 diode, thru the CDI cap, thru the junction of (the storage cap +, CDI cap + and if present top end of wire), thru wire, thru wire ground connection to vehicle frame/engine block, thru engine block, thru the plug threaded body thru the plasma spark. Whew. ( Not sure of direction of electron/curent flow convention, I was just tracing the path.)

So, those making this should make sure there is a good current path from the CDI + back to the plug threaded body. That is, all ground connections should be good and solid.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 19, 2008, 02:06:06 AM
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the circuit update.

I have a comment not on the R1 placement but the CDI cap ground. My thinking is that when the CDI discharges, the discharge current path is from the plug center electrode, thru the NTE517 diode, thru the CDI cap, thru the junction of (the storage cap +, CDI cap + and if present top end of wire), thru wire, thru wire ground connection to vehicle frame/engine block, thru engine block, thru the plug threaded body thru the plasma spark. Whew. ( Not sure of direction of electron/curent flow convention, I was just tracing the path.)

So, those making this should make sure there is a good current path from the CDI + back to the plug threaded body. That is, all ground connections should be good and solid.

Hi insane4evr,

You're good!  So you went through that too, huh?  Dizzying!  Simple circuit ... complex path.  You're the only one that has analyzed this properly AND stressed the need for GOOD connections.  An isolation transformer is helpful.

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 19, 2008, 02:11:37 AM
@Gmeast,

Did you see the link for the isolation transformers?  120v in 120v out 120w for $16.00 , Unfortunetly they only ship in the US.

Let me know what you think...

Thanks,

HV

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120132004551
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 19, 2008, 04:01:00 AM
@Gmeast,

Did you see the link for the isolation transformers?  120v in 120v out 120w for $16.00 , Unfortunetly they only ship in the US.

Let me know what you think...

Thanks,

HV

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120132004551

Thank you HV!

I will buy one and test it.  It looks friendly and the price is right.  There's gotta be a way around their problem with shipping elsewhere.

Thanks again,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 19, 2008, 04:16:43 AM
Hi Greg,

I will also buy one.

Thanks for the response.

The seller has nearly 1000 of these iso. transformers, maybe we can set up a deal with them if the buyer mentions the forum ??

I would be willing to bet if they work well, we would all purchase them......


Best Regards,

HV   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 19, 2008, 03:53:43 PM
I had a conversation with an electronics man, and he told me how to make an isolation transformer.

We need two SAME transformers, And connect the two secondaries together.
For example.:

Let's say he have two regular transformers:
1st,    220V AC primary, 12V AC secondary
2nd,   220V AC primary, 12V AC secondary

If we connect the two secondaries together and then give 220V AC to the 1st primary, then the 2nd primary will have 220V AC.
   

                         T1                                                      T2
 (in)                                                                                                                  (out)             
                          !!                                                            !!
-----------------------}  !!  {------------------------------------------------------}  !!  {------------------------------
                       }  !!  {                                                      }  !!  {
                       }  !!  {                                                      }  !!  {
220VAC(pri)      }  !!  {  12VAC(sec)               12VAC(sec)   }  !!  {    220VAC(pri)               
                       }  !!  {                                                      }  !!  {
                       }  !!  {                                                      }  !!  {
                       }  !!  {                                                      }  !!  {
-----------------------}  !!  {------------------------------------------------------}  !!  {------------------------------
                          !!                                                            !!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 19, 2008, 05:24:49 PM
Hi everyone,

The VexUs circuit somehow generates a huge spike that fools the inverter electronics into thinking there is a short circuit. I have been using a cheap 400 Watt inverter with no real internal protection.

I have exceeded my all-time record and can proudly say I have fried three inverter in one day ... beat that ... $40.00 a pop!

I'm trying to get a scope picture of the phenomenon while running on wall AC. Don't ruin any inverters you guys before I find a fix. It is a basic issue. Like has been said, there is so little current draw in this circuit that it can only be how the HV DC is being introduced. It may be an RF level phenomenon which can be shielded. There is some indication that a spike is frying the CMOS circuitry.

I'm also going to build a "dumb" 3055 transistor oscillator for the HV pump ... probably use voltage doubler ladders to get the voltage.

We'll get it. Input welcome. Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 19, 2008, 06:19:29 PM
I had a conversation with an electronics man, and he told me how to make an isolation transformer.

Yes, that will work.

Im actually using exactly the same layout. Weeks before I have been looking for an isolation transformer as it can be bought off ebay cheaply.

Lucky I found 2 same brand new toroid in my junk box  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 19, 2008, 06:28:01 PM
Hi everyone,

The VexUs circuit somehow generates a huge spike that fools the inverter electronics into thinking there is a short circuit. I have been using a cheap 400 Watt inverter with no real internal protection.

I have exceeded my all-time record and can proudly say I have fried three inverter in one day ... beat that ... $40.00 a pop!

I'm trying to get a scope picture of the phenomenon while running on wall AC. Don't ruin any inverters you guys before I find a fix. It is a basic issue. Like has been said, there is so little current draw in this circuit that it can only be how the HV DC is being introduced. It may be an RF level phenomenon which can be shielded. There is some indication that a spike is frying the CMOS circuitry.

I'm also going to build a "dumb" 3055 transistor oscillator for the HV pump ... probably use voltage doubler ladders to get the voltage.

We'll get it. Input welcome. Peace,

Greg

Spikes generated by the plasma circuit getting to the inverters output will destroy it.

A MOV or a bidirectional TVS/transzorb/transil should protect it from nasty spikes. I would also put a unidirectional TVS across the rectified output.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 19, 2008, 06:43:25 PM
Hi all,

I'm posting the basic VexUs circuit as a frame of reference for discussion as needed in addressing the inverter conflict issues recently observed.

Peace,

Greg
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_4.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 19, 2008, 06:46:00 PM
Spikes generated by the plasma circuit getting to the inverters output will destroy it.

A MOV or a bidirectional TVS/transzorb/transil should protect it from nasty spikes. I would also put a unidirectional TVS across the rectified output.

Hi Chris31,

Can you please post a circuit mod of this if you have the graphics?

Thanks,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 19, 2008, 06:55:12 PM
Hi Chris31,

Can you please post a circuit mod of this if you have the graphics?

Thanks,

Greg

I dont have a circuit ready, but its fairly straight forward.

You put a MOV or a TVS across the AC supply, you will find them in surge protected socket strip.

There are 2 type of TVS, one is bidirectional, one is unidirectional. The unidirectional acts the same as a zener diode. TVS and MOV are designed just for that, it kill the spikes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 19, 2008, 06:58:43 PM
Here are the application notes >

http://www.vishay.com/diodes/protection-tvs-esd/trans-zorb/related


This is what you really need >>>

http://www.vishay.com/docs/88439/typtvsap.pdf

I would go for TVS rather than MOVs. I blew a massive MOV but TVS survived.

Check out figure 2, thats what you need. I would also put a uni-TVS across the rectified output like the one shown on figure 1.

Inserting a surge protected power strip in between the inverter and the plasma circuit might do the trick.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: insane4evr on October 19, 2008, 07:32:46 PM
As Chris says TVS is better than MOVs. MOVs degrade everytime they are spiked.

Also, here is a typical inverter output circuit.
Not sure if this will help. But here it is for reference.
Additional note: On this one I reversed, circuit ground is also not connected to case/chassis. But not all inverters are the same.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 19, 2008, 09:26:09 PM
   What stops the inverter produced voltage from trying to discharge the battery through the ignition coil output winding? 
    How bout some neons across the bridge rectifier for wave reflection absorption.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 19, 2008, 09:58:56 PM
Hi everyone,

The VexUs circuit somehow generates a huge spike that fools the inverter electronics into thinking there is a short circuit. I have been using a cheap 400 Watt inverter with no real internal protection.

I have exceeded my all-time record and can proudly say I have fried three inverter in one day ... beat that ... $40.00 a pop!

I'm trying to get a scope picture of the phenomenon while running on wall AC. Don't ruin any inverters you guys before I find a fix. It is a basic issue. Like has been said, there is so little current draw in this circuit that it can only be how the HV DC is being introduced. It may be an RF level phenomenon which can be shielded. There is some indication that a spike is frying the CMOS circuitry.

I'm also going to build a "dumb" 3055 transistor oscillator for the HV pump ... probably use voltage doubler ladders to get the voltage.

We'll get it. Input welcome. Peace,

Greg



Hi Greg,

Where you using an isolation transformer when the inverters fried?

Thanks,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 19, 2008, 10:42:21 PM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: CRANKYpants on October 19, 2008, 11:15:38 PM
DEAR LUC,

FOR A GUY WHO DISLIKES ELECTRONICS YOU SEEM TO BE SWIMMING IN IT MY BROTHER!  ;)

HAPPY SUNDAY ALL...

Thane
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 20, 2008, 12:33:28 AM


Hi Greg,

Where you using an isolation transformer when the inverters fried?

Thanks,

HV

Hi HV,

The isolation transformer plugs into the inverter.  The transformer powers the FWB.  Schematic below.

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_3.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 20, 2008, 12:36:22 AM
All,

I now realize that the cmos protection circuit need to be a little better.
Attached is a updated drawing that shows how to connect circuit.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 20, 2008, 02:07:23 AM
DEAR LUC,

FOR A GUY WHO DISLIKES ELECTRONICS YOU SEEM TO BE SWIMMING IN IT MY BROTHER!  ;)

HAPPY SUNDAY ALL...

Thane

Hi Thane,

boy do you know the truth ;D... even if I try to build a circuit one of the component I need doesn't get delivered. I have 3 circuit waiting to test but still waiting for one part in each.

I think this is a message to just moderate and let the knowledgeable one work it out. I must say :D they are doing an Excellent job at it.

Thanks for checking on what's going on.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 20, 2008, 02:12:49 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 20, 2008, 02:20:33 AM
   What stops the inverter produced voltage from trying to discharge the battery through the ignition coil output winding? 
    How bout some neons across the bridge rectifier for wave reflection absorption.


Sounds like a good suggestion to me sparks :)... but lets see how the new proposals and tests work out.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 20, 2008, 06:02:11 AM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 20, 2008, 02:24:03 PM
Hi everyone,

The VexUs circuit somehow generates a huge spike that fools the inverter electronics into thinking there is a short circuit. I have been using a cheap 400 Watt inverter with no real internal protection.

I have exceeded my all-time record and can proudly say I have fried three inverter in one day ... beat that ... $40.00 a pop!

I'm trying to get a scope picture of the phenomenon while running on wall AC. Don't ruin any inverters you guys before I find a fix. It is a basic issue. Like has been said, there is so little current draw in this circuit that it can only be how the HV DC is being introduced. It may be an RF level phenomenon which can be shielded. There is some indication that a spike is frying the CMOS circuitry.

I'm also going to build a "dumb" 3055 transistor oscillator for the HV pump ... probably use voltage doubler ladders to get the voltage.

We'll get it. Input welcome. Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg!!

How?? A few days ago you showed us with your videos on the bug and on the bench that it is working very fine!!
Also what is a spike, and how can it be created since we have an isolation transformer????


Thanks,
Zissis

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 20, 2008, 04:43:14 PM
Hi Greg!!

How?? A few days ago you showed us with your videos on the bug and on the bench that it is working very fine!!
Also what is a spike, and how can it be created since we have an isolation transformer????


Thanks,
Zissis



Hi Zis,

A "spike" can be either a high amplitude power or RF transients.  A severe enough RF transient can destroy electronics like power FETS and CMOS components ... a part of modern modified wave inverters.

As you recall, the circuit was sitting outside the Bug and yes I did use the inverter that was already installed in the Bug I used on the straight-up plasma CDI circuit.  The only difference  - I used single HV diodes instead of multiple, parallel diodes.  Also, the circuit elements were spread out and not neatly arranged and hooked up on a power strip.  These factors may play a part. 

I do know the only circuit that has never failed to perform is my solid state version of the original Gotoluc / Lindemann / Aaron water spark plug circuit ... from way, way, back.

But I'm dedicated to understanding the recent phenomenon completely and fixing it because the circuit is so reliable, simple, scalable, cheap, etc.

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 20, 2008, 04:48:07 PM
Here are the application notes >

http://www.vishay.com/diodes/protection-tvs-esd/trans-zorb/related


This is what you really need >>>

http://www.vishay.com/docs/88439/typtvsap.pdf

I would go for TVS rather than MOVs. I blew a massive MOV but TVS survived.

Check out figure 2, thats what you need. I would also put a uni-TVS across the rectified output like the one shown on figure 1.

Inserting a surge protected power strip in between the inverter and the plasma circuit might do the trick.

Hi Chris31,

Thanks for the above,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 20, 2008, 08:50:43 PM
Hi Zis,

A "spike" can be either a high amplitude power or RF transients.  A severe enough RF transient can destroy electronics like power FETS and CMOS components ... a part of modern modified wave inverters.

Ok....!! I got that..!!

As you recall, the circuit was sitting outside the Bug and yes I did use the inverter that was already installed in the Bug I used on the straight-up plasma CDI circuit.  The only difference  - I used single HV diodes instead of multiple, parallel diodes.  Also, the circuit elements were spread out and not neatly arranged and hooked up on a power strip.  These factors may play a part. 

So, from what I understand, using the parts and the circuit as spreaded out as in your video, and using single HV diodes, it will work fine??

If then why don't we magnetically isolate everything, and put them all together???? 


I do know the only circuit that has never failed to perform is my solid state version of the original Gotoluc / Lindemann / Aaron water spark plug circuit ... from way, way, back.

Do you mean the one using the relays????

But I'm dedicated to understanding the recent phenomenon completely and fixing it because the circuit is so reliable, simple, scalable, cheap, etc.

Awaiting any update!!

Peace,

Greg



Silly questions for sure, but it is hard for me to understand electronics.
Really thank you!!

Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 20, 2008, 09:24:47 PM
Just ordered the TVS diodes, 2nd day delivery. I hope this works for us, now the bad part...........waiting for them to arrive so I can install into the circuit! Thanks guys, for such a quick response with a possible solution for our inverter issues. You guys are the best!!


Thanks............................... Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 20, 2008, 11:06:07 PM
 @groundlo


         Nice circuits.  Homegrown converter.   You could take your circuit up to any voltage depending on the driven transformer.   What freq is this circuit setup for?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 21, 2008, 03:08:59 AM
Just ordered the TVS diodes, 2nd day delivery. I hope this works for us, now the bad part...........waiting for them to arrive so I can install into the circuit! Thanks guys, for such a quick response with a possible solution for our inverter issues. You guys are the best!!


Thanks............................... Mike

Hi Mike,

What TVS's did you order ... P/N's, etc. and where are you putting them?  I think there is one bi-dirrectional and one directional.

Let me know,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! Plasma Arc Relationship to Negative Energy
Post by: scalar wave on October 21, 2008, 04:17:08 AM
Thought I'd put a few ideas of the Plasma Spark out there for considersation;

Looking at Bedini-Bearden's "Free Energy Generation" book, the resistors, inductors, and capacitors are amplifiers for the negative energy being experienced in the circuit....notice the circuit runs cold and with minimal wire size for strong power effects.  The spark gap creates asymetrical characteristics (sharp gradiants) releasing energy from the environment into the system.

From their book...."...for the component of negative energy that does propagate through the circuitry, the sharp flow of negative energy passing through an impedance (inductive, resistive, or capacitive impedance ) section results in the production of a negtive impedance effect---or amplifier effect--wherein excess negative energy freely flows into said impedance section from the activated local envirnment....thus amplifying the output of negative energy into the circuit......


Anyway, the isolation transformer 1:1 probably is a "amplifier" to a certain degree, along with the choke coils, resisters, and capacitors.

There's a lot more in the book and similarities to our circuitry.  No wonder the strange effects.

Read the book for some tips and similarities.  More later.......

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 21, 2008, 05:04:15 AM
@sparks,

The frequency for oscillators like this will be where the transformer has minimum loss.
Typically (for a iron core Toroid transformer) in the range of 1 to 2 kHz. If you use a Ferrite
core transformer then a bit higher. You can adjust (set) the frequency by using a non
polarized capacitor across the coil (between + and collector on transistor).

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 21, 2008, 05:14:37 AM
I realize I'm not up-to-speed on far too much of what has been happening, but I am wondering
if anyone takes into account the simple concept that the (If standard) Charge of the Coil produces
Positive HV, which also contains the "other" type of energy.  The "Collapse" of the Charge is
the one producing the negative HV being used to form the spark.  There are concepts in this
situation that I have heard no-one mention, and I'm going to re-read the entire thread just so
I don't look the fool for a second time in a short period.  (I'll apologise after I read...)

As is well known, the "Tesla" use of a spark gap was to limit the Electron flow and make use of
the "Potential" flow.  I'm not going to mention the actual types of energy involved, as there are
too many arguements on that subject already.  If the "Plasma" part of the reaction is what is
truly desired, then True electron flow is NOT desired.  This would change how the "Capacitor"
would be used in this situation and require a different type of cap for best function.  Also, the
best way to store a charge for output would be a coil, as the collapse would be a better form
of energy discharge.....   (Sure gives me different results, but I need two chokes to ensure
continous charge avail when sparking, for better charge recovery.  Yes, I'm playing too much.)

Do I sound off the wall, or has anyone else gone this way with their testing???

(Little note.  My record is a 1.5 inch long plasma arc.  Jacobs ladder setup for testing.  The
properties of the plasma arc get very interesting as the gap increases.  VERY Freq. dependant.)


Hi Loner,

thank you for posting. Please do all you can and know to find the potential of this circuit and effect.

Did you see the video I posted of Aaron's findings using a choke?

I also tested it with a choke and this is what I found: I did some test using my basic circuit and a heavy gauge inductor as choke which was just a MOT primary but no core (Air Core) and replicated the effect. It is very interesting to see the same reaction when water is sprayed but not much sound.  I added a 1N4007 to see if I can collect some kick back energy from it and I was able to collect 43vdc in a 220uf cap with one spark pulse. The discharge cap was identical 220uf charged to 168vdc. It seems to give best kick back energy collection when both caps are the same uf value, I tried it with lower and higher capacitance and it was less each way.

One interesting thing I noticed with the collection diode (directing positive to cap) is I tried it on each side of the choke and noticed that If it is on the Ground side of the choke (if the cap is empty) the spark sound comes back but gets less with each additional spark pulse as the cap fills up. Connected to the other side it was always stays a mostly silent spark but the cap did not fill much on additional spark pulses.

Interesting stuff. Please help us to understand this effect

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 21, 2008, 05:47:30 AM
@everyone,

I think we could do without an inverter and isolation transformer if we just use a MOT and pulse the primary with 12vdc to the frequency of choice to obtain voltage of choice from the secondary. We also would have isolation. Best however would be to use the AC (pre diodes) of the alternator to pulse the MOT primary so it would work in perfect sync. with engine revs demands.

Think about it and let me know you thoughts.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 21, 2008, 06:13:47 AM
Hi Luc,

Can you give us more info on your idea., how will you pulse the circuit?

Thanks,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 21, 2008, 06:24:51 AM
Hi Luc,

Can you give us more info on your idea., how will you pulse the circuit?

Thanks,

HV

Hi HV,

we could pulse the MOT primary with a mosfet pulse circuit which could be sensing the coil pulses to synchronize to supply on demand but even better is to just use the AC from the alternator.

I think this is a reasonable idea and would eliminate the Inverter and Isolation Transformer.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 21, 2008, 06:49:13 AM
Luc,

If you go back in the thread then you will see that my small power inverter is doing exactly that.
Pulsing a transformer to get the voltage we want. Also my newest circuit will do the same.

Attached is a power oscillator circuit that can be used to pulse any transformer.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 21, 2008, 07:24:23 AM
Luc,

If you go back in the thread then you will see that my small power inverter is doing exactly that.
Pulsing a transformer to get the voltage we want. Also my newest circuit will do the same.

Attached is a power oscillator circuit that can be used to pulse any transformer.

Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,

yes I did think of you when I wrote it. You had and have a good solution. I would like to see if we could use a MOT's since we can get them for free and it helps to recycle stuff which is better for the environment then to buy new. I also love the idea of using the AC from the cars alternator to pulse on demand.

Thanks for Sharing your circuit

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 21, 2008, 07:33:31 AM
Luc,

Maybe the attached circuit will do? You may need a current limiter when using this circuit on a MOT.
The input can be pulsed from the alternator or other means. What do you think? The current
limiter can be a coil in the plus line or a big wattage resistor. Someone to test this?

[EDIT]  The transformer can be a MOT. (I just like toroid transformers. :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 21, 2008, 02:51:23 PM
@Loner,

The stronger construction of automotive alternators allows them to use a smaller pulley so as to turn twice as fast as the engine, improving output when the engine is idling. The availability of low-cost solid-state diodes from about 1960 onward allowed car manufacturers to substitute alternators for DC generators. Automotive alternators use a set of rectifiers (diode bridge) to convert AC to DC. To provide direct current with low ripple, automotive alternators have a three-phase winding.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

So if the motor runs at 5000 RPM then the alternators runs at 10000 RPM. The frequency of the alternators
output will then be 10000 / 60 = 166,67 * 3 = 500 Hz.

This frequency is not a problem even for Iron core transformers.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 21, 2008, 03:54:18 PM
Hey Greg,

    The diodes I ordered are the ones suggested by Jetijs and Chris31, 1.5KE150CA is the bi-directional one for the AC side. And the 1.5KE15A uni-directional for the DC before the inverter. I ordered 10 each, hope it works for us. They are less than $0.50 each. Later....................Mike  
Title: Re: URGENT! Radian Energy Discharge Plasma Spark Similarities
Post by: scalar wave on October 21, 2008, 04:01:12 PM
Take a look at some exerpts from Bedini-Bearden book found at:

http://www.syscoil.org/medias/pdf/documents/20_bedini_bearden_years.pdf

Look at John Bedini discharging radiant energy photo and associated material in this little bit.

Plasma Spark?

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 21, 2008, 04:16:21 PM
@Groundloop,

thank you for the quick suggestion and circuit idea for pulsing the MOT. I'm not sure what the best or simplest approach is but this gives us an idea of a possible way.

@everyone, I would like to here of what you can think of also.

@Loner, thank you for thinking of the possible frequency issue problem, which I had not though of.  Looks like Groundloop's calculations we maybe okay though. I was hopping someone would say they have a alternator set up to an electric motor from HHO testing and it looks like you have one. Can you please do test using a MOT and see what kind of frequency and power we get at whatever RPM to find if this is a feasible idea please.

Thanks for sharing ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 22, 2008, 06:22:49 AM
sorry for interuption,
just update,
VexUs already function, without isolate transformer, and with RESISTANCES PLUG ???
problem is the mark on diode was differences direction :P,when i turn it backword, it work.
after 2 min turning for test outside with 220AC from wall.
Plug look spark eating, vaule is 22uf and 110 Ohm 80W
I plan to reduce to 10uf. that ok?

Thanks any way

regard,
zzzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 22, 2008, 05:02:36 PM
@Loner,

No big deal, we all make mistakes, that is what make us humans.

I agree with you that the biggest challenge is how to wire the MOT to the
generator coils. If we just wire to one coil then maybe we overload that coil?
The primary of a MOT is approx. 1,6 Ohm. At 12 Volt this will give a load
on one coil of approx. 7,5 Ampere (90 Watt). A typical car generator is
from 55 to 120 Ampere. So we will load that coil at almost 50% for the small
generators. So we need to load all coils.

The idea of connecting a MOT to a car generator is good, but I personally think we
will find it easier to just use power from the battery.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 22, 2008, 05:10:36 PM
Luc

Sorry about last long post.  I'll keep it short.  Have Motor to alt setup.  Don't have MOT.
(I assume that is acronym for Microwave Oven Transformer?)  Being an Old-School
electronics hacker, as it were, I mainly use homemade Electronics for all my testing.
(Test equipment is NOT all homemade, just the Inverters, Osc's, coils, etc.)
I will rip into my garage Microwave, that I never use, and get one, but I'm afraid that
will take longer than you might imagine.  Give me a week or maybe two to get that
far.  Just finished my Homemade HV cap (at least 3KV), so I need to go there anyway.

Here I was, thinking of building a big Tesla generator, and suddenly, this sounds more fun.
If it weren't for other unmentioned problems, I would be a lot faster, but I'm sure you know
what I mean.  I'm still stuck on the "Type" of charge I'm trying to develop for the Plasma
arc.  I'm a lot further behind you guys than it may sound, so for now, ignore me, and I'll post
any results I get ASAP.  (No more making myself look the complete "Armchair" builder.  That
and I need to MIG up the frame for my newest genset.  Need electric start, non geared, and
though I finally have the parts, I just need the time.  Seems there's never enough of that....)

Thank you Loner for taking the time to experiment with this circuit.

You are correct, MOT is a Microwave Oven Transformer ;D

Looking forward to your research.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 22, 2008, 08:39:43 PM
YES, YES, YES..........I got in the 1.5KE150CA diodes in a little bit ago. Hooked up one between the inverter and isolation transformer, and then one between the transformer and tripler circuit. Have not added the one for the battery to inverter yet, but will shortly, just as a safegaurd. I could never run the circuit on just the inverter for more than about a minute at around 2,200 rpm, less than 30 seconds at 4,300 rpm, and the inverter started squeeling loudly in protest.

I just finished running continuous for 20 minutes at 4,300 rpm, powered by inverter ONLY. The 1.5KE150CA diodes did not even get WARM at all........much less hot. But, most importantly, THE INVERTER WAS HAPPY THE ENTIRE TIME!!!!!!!!

NOW.......if I can run a v-8 distributor at that rpm on inverter power, there should be NO problem whatsoever with a 4 cylinder install.

I will now move forward with installing the circuit into this 350 Suburban, HOLD ON TIGHT BOYS, IT'S GETTING CRAZY AROUND HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Later.......................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 22, 2008, 08:44:28 PM
Thank you Jetijs and Chris31,

    Those diodes seem to have fixed the inverter issue. I will do a longer test soon, but 20 minutes is a pretty good test, since I couldn't even run it for 1 minute before. Thanks again for the suggestions................................................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 22, 2008, 08:48:47 PM
YES, YES, YES..........I got in the 1.5KE150CA diodes in a little bit ago. Hooked up one between the inverter and isolation transformer, and then one between the transformer and tripler circuit. Have not added the one for the battery to inverter yet, but will shortly, just as a safegaurd. I could never run the circuit on just the inverter for more than about a minute at around 2,200 rpm, less than 30 seconds at 4,300 rpm, and the inverter started squeeling loudly in protest.

I just finished running continuous for 20 minutes at 4,300 rpm, powered by inverter ONLY. The 1.5KE150CA diodes did not even get WARM at all........much less hot. But, most importantly, THE INVERTER WAS HAPPY THE ENTIRE TIME!!!!!!!!

NOW.......if I can run a v-8 distributor at that rpm on inverter power, there should be NO problem whatsoever with a 4 cylinder install.

I will now move forward with installing the circuit into this 350 Suburban, HOLD ON TIGHT BOYS, IT'S GETTING CRAZY AROUND HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Later.......................................Mike


Man you are on a roll !!! Great work !!!!

I can't wait to hear the update !!!!

Where did you purchase your new diodes?

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 22, 2008, 09:08:01 PM
I ordered both diode types from Allied Electronics 1-800-433-5700. They have both the 1.5KE15A and the 1.5KE150CA in stock. Got them in two days.

Yall stay tuned..........................more to come..............................Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 22, 2008, 09:13:07 PM
I ordered both diode types from Allied Electronics 1-800-433-5700. They have both the 1.5KE15A and the 1.5KE150CA in stock. Got them in two days.

Yall stay tuned..........................more to come..............................Mike

Excellent stuff. I get mine from farnell.  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on October 23, 2008, 12:46:05 AM
Bill's Nexus Circuit Second Test

I finally received my isolation transformer today and performed some testing. I first tested the circuit with an isolated battery to ensure that the inverter primaries were isolated from it's secondaries. It worked just as I expected. The hot side of the inverters output is totally isolated from the vehicle battery, the neutral side still reads 120 VAC but I guess it should seeing that it is tied to the vehicle ground. So when I tested the circuit on the vehicle battery, the inverter held up just fine. I was a little worried due to all of the TVS use that has been going on, but I figured what the hell I'll give it a try. It did not seem to affect the inverter, but I was only running one plug. Just for safety sake, I think I will order TVS's just to make sure.

I also replaced the MOT with an electric motor coil that I got out of the fan in the microwave. The spark was not as great, but that should be due to the fact that the MOT has 0.7 ohms of resistance and the little coil has 103.7 ohms of resistance. The little coil worked just fine and of course is 10 time smaller.

I only used 15 diodes in this test because of just testing one plug, and that also worked fine. I found a neat way of packaging the diodes. I soldered them all together covered them in liquid electric tape, then folded them and wrapped them in heat shrink. Works great and a lot smaller package I have posted a couple of pictures before and after the shrink wrap.

I made a video of the test and I'm in the process of uploading it as I am writing this. I will post a link once it is completed.

Next step is to install this on all four plugs and see how she runs.

Lapperl

Here is the video link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz24fUJQA_o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz24fUJQA_o)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on October 23, 2008, 04:05:45 AM
Hry luc and fellas, wuld it be possible to use a flyback core.... ither the TV or computer,one has a bigger diameter core .Was hope'n we culd used salvaged flyback cores for isolation.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kewlhead on October 23, 2008, 04:32:31 AM
These type of questions are probably aggravting to some guys... hopefully not to everyone tho.These flyback cores are 2 C look'n cores with a very narrow space between the 2 via a plastic spacer of some sorts, it makes me think the 2 isolation windings form a serries network with in the core magneticaly.If that is true,is the dirrection of the second winding wound in the same dirrection to form that serries magnetic network or wound in opposite dirrection?If this expieriment is worth it to form a LC circuit I wish someone culd help to determine a number of windings for a given L to work with an easy to get capacitor value like from the old flash caps  or microwave oven caps.....
Has anyone tried a flyback core?  Oh yeah, why is iether the TV or computer moniter flyback  core bigger in diameter?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Super God on October 23, 2008, 04:55:34 PM
Keep up the good work guys! :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on October 23, 2008, 05:50:08 PM
  @Kewl


    The flyback has the slot because it is pulsed with highfrequency dc.  15khz  I think.  Without the slot the core would build up residual magnetism between pulses and not collapse fast enough to get the high voltage for the tube.   You get your voltage from an ignition coil when you break the circuit.  The faster the better.
    Anybody try to get a small engine on water yet?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on October 23, 2008, 08:03:32 PM
 
    Anybody try to get a small engine on water yet?

I'm still trying to get my 10HP ICE (portable electric generator) to run on water (with or without HHO).

DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Groundloop on October 23, 2008, 08:36:32 PM
@sparks,

>>Anybody try to get a small engine on water yet?

Not much time to work on my 1,5HP motor. Been busy building plasma circuits
and other stuff. I have teamed up with a friend and we are planning to buy an older
car to do the testing on. Everything takes time and money. Since we do not have
plenty of both, then everything slows down.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 23, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
    Anybody try to get a small engine on water yet?

Its been done months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

I believed revizal have tried as well.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on October 26, 2008, 02:59:21 AM
With all the great talented collective collaboration here it is not a surprise that we have a working unit already on the road already.

We did it, this one is for Jetijs et ALL. We have Revizals circuit running with the WFA booster, and will do a 2 week trial and show the wear on the plugs.Thanks Rev!! for the simplicity circuit and
confidence) We are adding it to ALL the groups research in a new supportive video with a themed script about open source engineering, neglected plasma research and a suppressed plug shown to us!plus more.

Mainly a homage to all you guys doing such great work, here are some snaps guys, video and report coming. This circuit ran the car, like a brand new one, it stars up like Gregs VW and PURRRRRRZZZ
Might be a bit too much power with the hydroxy :))))

Screen shots from the Video
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panaceasparkft7.jpg
Spark (sunlight does not do spark justice)

http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panaceaspark002cm9.jpg
Boost in the back round with inverter and spark box
Will see better and more in the video
Ash

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on October 26, 2008, 06:05:24 AM
Guys at this stage it looks like the circuit we got working is good to prove a principle, but still too much heat and amp draw for us. We tried the jacabs ladder test and inserted diodes in series with the input to get the wattage down so it only say 12 volt instead of 13.8 volts.
http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rimg0268sd0.jpg
Still got a 7 amps draw and resistors (300ohms) got hotish after a few minutes of operation. Have made some footage of it being connected and disconnected increasing the RPM's with the booster attached. Will be up soon.

Ash
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 26, 2008, 06:21:45 AM
Thanks for posting your tests and finding Ash :)

Great Job mate ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Johan_1955 on October 26, 2008, 06:12:06 PM
Hello Great People,

Maybe "Tishatang" is even more close than I/we want to see, imagen a cilinder not with a positive pressure but with a far negative pressure, this after being flushed with 5 ideal inert gasses, and they also left a few drops off water behind.

In a 2 cilinder of 400 hp, we will need far more than only a pos.-pressure explosion, also the Negative Back-Force (EMF)!! We are working with this and now forgetting it? To make this power (the mentioned 400 hp) possible in just and only a 2 cilinder, we need also to contract with force: So dream we have an engine not filled with pressure, like above: a 2 cilinder engine, pistons 180 degrees off-set, not filled with a positive pressure but with a negative pressure/vacuum, this after being flushed with 5 ideal inert gasses, and they also left a few drops off water behind.

Ideal for igniting, far less spark or power needed to maintain the plasma going for the than pressure down-stroke, heat done with DC dan contracting with AC, bringing force-full back->up the vacuum back and coolness in the cilinder.

Maybe a try, just a container filled/flushed with a bit Argon of the TIG, sucking side off compressor and than well you know.

Johan
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 27, 2008, 04:02:37 AM
@All,

Here's a video of "Revizal's" first test run with Greg's "VexUs" circuit..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mPv2O8gCu4


HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on October 27, 2008, 04:40:51 PM
Bills Nexus Circuit Installed in Vehicle

I have installed the Nexus circuit in my vehicle and have posted a video.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXmHISwlGM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXmHISwlGM)

I do not have the inverter or isolation transformer installed in the vehicle yet on the video, but I have completed that since then and have driven it on the road.

In the video, you can see the an amp gauge, I had my 5 amp gauge hooked up and it was pulling around 4 at idle. When I revved the engine up, it would peg the gauge so I installed the cheap Harbor Freight amp gauge which is not as accurate but gives you an idea. I do not believe that it is getting above 7 amps or it would have blown the buss fuses I had hooked up to the inverter input.

I drove the vehicle for a little over an hour last night and almost an hour (33 miles) to work this morning with no major issues. The inverter, diodes, and resistor coil did not get hot, only the isolation transformer got warm to the touch. I would believe that this is normal operation.

The only issue that I could see is that from a dead stop, if I attempt a fast acceleration (half throttle or more) the engine will bog like it is missing. Just like if the spark plug wires were bad. Although this issue is present now whether the inverter is on or off. So I expect that there is some cross talk going on with the wiring that I installed, because it never has done this before. Either that or my spark gap is too large, but I doubt this because I only increased it by 10 thousands and once I am rolling, I do not see this problem. I can accelerate full throttle causing the transmission to down shift into passing gear without any hiccups. It only happens from a dead stop when I apply 1/2 throttle or more. I will try to re-route the wires some and see if this helps. If not, then I am gong to add Bill's original 60 diode bank before the 15 diodes I have going to each plug and see if this solves to problem. ???

But besides that, it runs very smooth at idle and appears to accelerate well if I do not over do the throttle.  ;D

More to come.

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 27, 2008, 05:06:48 PM
paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris31 View Post
@greg/mike/jetijs and other experimenters

Just wondering...have you tried placing a small piece of paper in between the plug gap? would it set the paper on fire after let say 1-5 sparks?

I think this will tell us if the sparks is hot or cold.
Hi Chris31,


Reply:
I did the test and the paper mass is too great for an ignition but I did get a burn speck on the paper. I'll try and photograph it and post.

Greg

.................................................. .............

Hi all,

Here are some pics of the paper burn specks.

The circuit is VexUs using 3uF CDI cap, a 22uF storage cap, homemade two transistor oscillator / inverter with voltage doubler (diode - cap ladder).

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/papera.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/paperb.jpg)

...... then I put the paper back and ran it at high speed for a couple of seconds ...

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/paperc.jpg)

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/paperd.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 27, 2008, 07:33:03 PM
So.... That's HOT***  ;D

We knew that it's hot, since some plugs melted down!!

Very interesting greg!! Bravo!!

Try putting wet paper, the same way, and see what happens!!

Thanks,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 27, 2008, 08:57:22 PM
So.... That's HOT***  ;D

We knew that it's hot, since some plugs melted down!!

Very interesting greg!! Bravo!!

Try putting wet paper, the same way, and see what happens!!

Thanks,
Zissis

Hi Zis,

Something else about some refinements I've made is my restrictor valve (current limiter R1 is now only 180 ohms and 5-Watts.  High voltage is one key to keeping the power and heat down in the system.

It explodes water spray wonderfully!

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rfsimoes on October 27, 2008, 11:34:11 PM
@lapperll

The only issue that I could see is that from a dead stop, if I attempt a fast acceleration (half throttle or more) the engine will bog like it is missing. Just like if the spark plug wires were bad.

My guess is that kick wires. You have turned a good set of spark plug wires into bad ones.
Maybe before you add more diodes you could check of your kick wires to see that they aren't the cause of that. Maybe run the car only with the kick wires open.
I'm no expert but I think when you "stick the pedal to the metal", the pressure inside the cylinder increases and then you need more HI voltage to jump that spark gap, and you are loosing that through the kick wires isolation to the ground were the wires are closer.

just trying to help here...
rfsimoes
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on October 28, 2008, 02:19:20 AM
Bill's Nexus Circuit Vehicle Install Update

Quote
@lapperll

The only issue that I could see is that from a dead stop, if I attempt a fast acceleration (half throttle or more) the engine will bog like it is missing. Just like if the spark plug wires were bad.

My guess is that kick wires. You have turned a good set of spark plug wires into bad ones.
Maybe before you add more diodes you could check of your kick wires to see that they aren't the cause of that. Maybe run the car only with the kick wires open.
I'm no expert but I think when you "stick the pedal to the metal", the pressure inside the cylinder increases and then you need more HI voltage to jump that spark gap, and you are loosing that through the kick wires isolation to the ground were the wires are closer.

just trying to help here...
rfsimoes

@rfsimoes,

You are partially correct.  But it did not damage the spark plug wire.  But thank you for your input, it is always appreciated.


Well I should have gone with my gut instinct, it is usually right.

I stopped on the way home and purchased some Champion Platinum spark plugs and left the factory gap setting on 25 thousandths. I figured what the heck they should hold up better in the long run and they were only $2.99 each. I proceeded to re-route the kick wires and shield them with some high voltage shielding that is used on neon signs. When I was on the last plug I realized that the plug wire was not fully engaged on the spark plug. :-[

I also noticed that when I removed the resistor from the spark plugs, there were two where it looked like the #12 copper wire I replaced the resister and spring with were shorting on the inside as if they were too short. I know they were all tight with a good connection. So on the platinum plugs I left the spring in.

We needless to say, it was a 100% improvement. No hesitation at all All is back to above normal. There is a definite increase in power. I do not have to press the accelerator pedal as far to accelerate from a stop and it absolutely idles much smoother. I guess running on all four cylinders will do that.   :o

So I took it for another little test drive (aprox. 15 miles) to the gas station to top off the tank and a little drive around town. Like I said, much improvement.   ;D

Next update will be plug condition after a full fuel tank and mileage increase or decrease.

Until Next Time,

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 28, 2008, 02:40:50 AM
@All.

A bit off topic but important, Many Youtube video's are being deleted as we speak...."Suppression".....

Please back up all important video's ASAP....

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sernaman on October 28, 2008, 03:18:15 AM
 :o fascinating!  you are track in your process to great discoveries.  I hope you can handle the criticism your project will encounter.  Somewhere in all that verbiage you'll find a key to your success.  Believe me, someone is watching and if they appreciate your sincerity, will make that key known to you.  It may have already.  Did you miss it?

My own curiosity?  have you tried insulating the spark plug base from the electrode during your experiments?  Was there any observed change?  I am concerned about shorting during your experiment.  If it is shorting, would insulating improve your results?

Keep up the research. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 28, 2008, 08:09:27 AM
Hi Greg

Thanks for the test. I was also able to burn through the paper, I though I mention it as it could be important in what we are trying to do here.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 28, 2008, 08:23:15 AM
Many Youtube video's are being deleted as we speak...."Suppression".....

Οhh....!!!! I like it....!!!!

This makes me think that we are in a very very very very good way!!!!

I will try to back-up this whole thread, with all posts in it..!!

Thanks HV!!!!

Zis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on October 28, 2008, 08:29:53 AM
Hi all

I have been observing the effect of the plasma sparks for the last 2 days.

The simple test is...

Spray some alchohol inside the cylinder of a 2 stroke engine. No carb, no muffler, Im just using the engine to compress the mixture.

The result is definitely a stronger explosion. Tried with the piston at the bottom, a larger flame spits out of the exhaust.

I also tried this with light oil (penetrating oil), the plasma is able to ignite it. Black smokes and it smell like diesel engine under acceleration :D

Tried with veg oil, there is a small movement of the piston.

Tried with water, nothing.

The only way for it to ignite water is to mix it with fuel, I used alcohol.

This is why I believed that those who tried with water and got some piston movement, I think its due to some fuel still left inside the engine.

Im not too sure if someone have tried before but I will get some diesel fuel and try to ignite that with plasma.

It can surely ignite lean mixture so thats good news.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on October 28, 2008, 09:36:10 AM
Hi, greg,
just wondering, I saw plasma spark seem to be longer than normal spark, can we calculate sparking period of plasma, ???
because all of you gain power from this circuit with gas, where the power came from  ???

Is it possible that exhaust re-combust,( I mean hot steam that produces from fuel+O2 is explode after main combustion finish).

If it be, may be we can set proper ignition timing, plasma spark period, and combustion chamber working condition in real enging to reduces fuel as much as we can,

just an idea... :-[



update, my bug have problem with starter motor, now i wiring circuit to my 38 years old bmw2000. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 28, 2008, 03:19:49 PM
Hi, greg,
just wondering, I saw plasma spark seem to be longer than normal spark, can we calculate sparking period of plasma, ???
because all of you gain power from this circuit with gas, where the power came from  ???

Is it possible that exhaust re-combust,( I mean hot steam that produces from fuel+O2 is explode after main combustion finish).

If it be, may be we can set proper ignition timing, plasma spark period, and combustion chamber working condition in real enging to reduces fuel as much as we can,

just an idea... :-[



update, my bug have problem with starter motor, now i wiring circuit to my 38 years old bmw2000. ;)

Hi,

A GEET setup allows you to recycle the exhaust and re combust what might  be left to burn.  Definitely on the list of things to do.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 29, 2008, 12:40:02 AM
Hi all,

I have moved away from inverters altogether. I have built the simplest of oscillators - a two transistor DC-AC device with a voltage doubler.

I got a scope-wise look at the 'death' event that fried one of my inverters and it appears that the failure (at least on my stuff) is related to the C-MOS circuitry in the inverter controls getting fried first then followed by random firing of the power FETS in the inverter resulting in shorting and burnout. The inverter has an internal 50 A fuse that is blown. All of those have always been blown. If this theory proves out then my transistor oscillator should live ... no control circuitry ... just two power transistors and a couple of diodes, some resistors, etc.

I'll let you know.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 29, 2008, 01:04:16 AM
Hi Greg,

No inverter !!!............ I like that, less is more...

What kind of transistors are you testing with ?

Thanks for sharing..

Aloha,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 29, 2008, 02:44:20 AM
Hi Greg,

No inverter !!!............ I like that, less is more...

What kind of transistors are you testing with ?

Thanks for sharing..

Aloha,

HV

Hi HV,

The transistors are your old standby 3055's in the T03 Cans.  The half wave voltage doubler droops a little at higher frequencies but I can fix that with a more efficient commercial voltage multiplier like one from the following:

http://www.voltagemultipliers.com/html/multcircuit.html

The VexUs part uses a 30 uF storage cap and a 3 uF CDI cap and a 120 ohm current limiter resistor.  The resistor doesn't flow any more than 5 Watts of power.

Anyway, peace,

Greg

Title: Mixed GEET + Plasma Ignition Booster on an engine
Post by: revizal on October 29, 2008, 06:06:38 AM
Hi All,

(Just resend what I posted on energeticforum)

Inspired of what Gotoluc did several times ogo in last 2 day I make a series test to make clear the effect of plasma in ICE. The testing did without electrical loading on the output. I back to my 2K gasoline genset with the steps:
1. Runs the genset on 100 mL gasoline with original ignition setup and No GEET connected into the engine. The fuel last in 4 minutes.
2. Runs the genset on 100 mL gasoline with original ignition setup + GEET connected into the engine. Fuel last in 5 minutes.
3. Runs the genset on 100 mL diesel with original ignition setup + GEET connected into the engine. Fuel last in 5 minutes.
4. Runs the genset on 100 mL diesel with plasma ignition setup + GEET connected into the engine. Fuel last in 7 minutes.

I think with just 100 mL fuel, it’s not enough to make conclusion about fuel consumption. But my main purpose is to see the real effect of plasma on mixed GEET-Plasma booster ignition. The smoke was gone when I run it on mixed GEET + Plasma Booster. My video make it clears to sure the effect. In experience, it need 5-8 times to pull the starter wheel to make engine start on original ignition setup, but only 2 times when I pulling the starter wheel to make the engine start and it was very smooth on gasoline or diesel.

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSbr-lk7xg

I hope it gives some additional progress here.
Best regard,

Revizal.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 29, 2008, 05:16:53 PM
Great work Revizal,
you could do some torque/poweroutput measurements later on to see how more efficient it runs.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 29, 2008, 07:50:48 PM
VIDEO - oscillator / doubler


Hi all,

Trouble with the video editor so no titles and I didn't feel like talking.

In the video you see the regular spark then I turn on the oscillator / doubler assembly, squirt it with water, run it with the drill motor, etc. Good stable plasma to max drill motor speed ... about 2400 RPM.

The doubler (multiplier) is on the left of the transformer. The doubler is the exact one Aaron posted to the group long ago. The xformer is a 115VAC x 12.6 VAC run in reverse. No need for an isolation transformer because the 115 x 12.6 is one. It gets warm but is cooled easly by one of the (many) small chasis fans I have left over from fried inverters. It gets warm for two reasons: 1) it's not a real step up transformer, 2) transformers don't like square waves ... they like sine waves.

The short, fat cap is a 1000uF x 100VDC for the oscillator input supply stabilizer (goes across the 12VDC input to the oscillator - may not be needed).

Behind that is a small 33uF x 450VDC storage cap. On the upper right is an oil-filled HV cap at 3uF. The current limiter resistor is 120 Ohms.

I will be getting a board-mount xformer today. It is only a 0.3A transformer. This arrangement draws very low power ... it surprised me!

This way I can make a final determination if the inverter failures have been 'power-side' based or 'processor-side' based. A failure on the power side is a $2.00 Transistor replacement and on with troubleshooting, etc.

Video is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHsJDADguc

Peace,

Greg

P.S. My original Gotoluc pulsed-coil plasma CDI circuit (with the charge and discharge power Mosfets) is still intact and a reminder that there was NEVER a problem with that configuration. Just thought I'd mention that.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 29, 2008, 08:24:52 PM
Hey Greg!!
Beautiful work!!

Can you post a schematic of the home-made inverter - oscillator circuit??

Are you using your VexUs circuit for the plasma, or Gotoluc's?? Please make it clear!!

Thanks a lot Greg!!
Awesome work again!!

Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 29, 2008, 08:41:51 PM
Hi Greg,

I second that !!!!

Very nice !!

Thanks for sharing!!


Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 30, 2008, 12:37:23 AM
Hey Greg!!
Beautiful work!!

Can you post a schematic of the home-made inverter - oscillator circuit??

Are you using your VexUs circuit for the plasma, or Gotoluc's?? Please make it clear!!

Thanks a lot Greg!!
Awesome work again!!

Zissis

Yes,  I will post the circuit ... got it off the internet ... I am using VexUs ... I am going to exhaust the attempts at a piggyback arrangement because it has more potential for more people.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: revizal on October 30, 2008, 01:14:12 AM
Great work Revizal,
you could do some torque/poweroutput measurements later on to see how more efficient it runs.

Unfortunately, I do not have the tools..sorry.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 30, 2008, 02:58:06 AM
Hi all,

... finished the oscillator, mounted the xformer, mounted the fan, mounted the board on the VW engine compartment back plane.

Here's a pic of the board and a pic of the waveform. It is about 300VAC P-P @ 70 hz. and 247 VDC at the storage Cap.

The oscillator-part is from the transformer and to the right. The voltage multiplier is the two diodes and two caps at the lower left and then there's the fan (1-1/2 square).

It sags a little more than I like at high speed (2400 RPM, 4 cycles per rev = 160 cps). It droops to about 165 VDC at that speed but that's plenty to bring the plasma event.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/oscillboard.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/oscillwave.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 30, 2008, 04:07:34 AM
Hi Greg,

Outstanding work, what votage caps are you using in the doubler ?

Thanks,

HV
Title: Re: Mixed GEET + Plasma Ignition Booster on an engine
Post by: passion1 on October 30, 2008, 08:39:46 AM
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSbr-lk7xg

I hope it gives some additional progress here.
Best regard,
Revizal.
Revizal
Excellent video!!
Which version of the plasma ignition did you use in the video?

Passion
Title: Re: Mixed GEET + Plasma Ignition Booster on an engine
Post by: passion1 on October 30, 2008, 08:41:21 AM
Revizal
Excellent video!!
Which plasma version/circuit did you use in the video?
Passion
Title: Re: Mixed GEET + Plasma Ignition Booster on an engine
Post by: revizal on October 30, 2008, 08:59:23 AM
Revizal
Excellent video!!
Which plasma version/circuit did you use in the video?
Passion

Tero's Plasma circuit. Just the same as what I did on my Yamaha Mio.

Rev.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 30, 2008, 05:12:21 PM
Hi Greg,

Outstanding work, what votage caps are you using in the doubler ?

Thanks,

HV

Hi HV,

The doubler is a half-wave multiplier (not very efficient) and the caps are 22uF x 250VDC.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 30, 2008, 05:48:43 PM
Hey guys,


Here is something I found interesting enough to video the effect. I obtained a cylinder combustion test plate from a friend of mine that bolts onto a cylinder head and allows simulation of combustion chamber pressures. I did this test at 2,300 rpm and only one of eight plugs setup to fire plasma. I pressurized this chamber at 100 - 110 psi, using VERY dry air from the dryer system my painter uses to paint cars. Because we all know what happens with plasma and moisture! As the pressure increases, so does the size of the plasma! I thought compression would decrease the effect, but I guess not now. I wanted a longer video, but the battery in the camera died, so I just went ahead and posted it as is. Enjoy, and please give feedback as to what you guys think of this.....................................Mike   
Vexus Plasma Vs. 100 psi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cXO4yYW480 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cXO4yYW480)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on October 30, 2008, 07:09:54 PM
Unfortunately, I do not have the tools..sorry.
I'm sure you can create a flywheel and couple it to your motor ;)

You know how many cylinder cycles per second, you know how much fuel it consumes, then if you know the weight of the wheel and its resistance, you can calculate exactly how much Joules is put into the wheel.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on October 30, 2008, 10:24:10 PM
It's just me again,

    I did it this time at 125 psi, 2,300 rpm. The higher the pressure, the bigger the plasma gets!!! Keep in mind, I am ONLY discharging 2.5uF in these vids! The reason, I think, that I had to make a new combustion chamber plate is because my painter was using his DRY air system at the time I wanted to make another video. I used regular shop air and it has moisture in it. The plasma built up size as I increased chamber pressure........And BANG!  I'm betting the large plasma ball ignited the amount of water vapor coming through the air hose, the pressure had no where to go, so it blew out the see-through plate. It was quite a boom, I nearly wet my pants! It seems to me that using an ACTUAL combustion chamber is the only way to get an accurate test result. The shape of the head's combustion chamber is a series of angles and curves........it is that way for a reason! The link is below for the 125 psi test.  

VexUs Plasma Vs. 125 psi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on October 30, 2008, 10:36:39 PM
It's just me again,

    I did it this time at 125 psi, 2,300 rpm. The higher the pressure, the bigger the plasma gets!!! Keep in mind, I am ONLY discharging 2.5uF in these vids! The reason, I think, that I had to make a new combustion chamber plate is because my painter was using his DRY air system at the time I wanted to make another video. I used regular shop air and it has moisture in it. The plasma built up size as I increased chamber pressure........And BANG!  I'm betting the large plasma ball ignited the amount of water vapor coming through the air hose, the pressure had no where to go, so it blew out the see-through plate. It was quite a boom, I nearly wet my pants! It seems to me that using an ACTUAL combustion chamber is the only way to get an accurate test result. The shape of the head's combustion chamber is a series of angles and curves........it is that way for a reason! The link is below for the 125 psi test.  

VexUs Plasma Vs. 125 psi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo)



WoW!!!!...........Keep up the great progress !!!!!!

Thanks for sharing....

Aloha,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on October 30, 2008, 11:22:55 PM
Hello Greg!!

I thought something about these things for the transformer:

Quote
2) transformers don't like square waves ... they like sine waves.
Quote
Here's a pic of the board and a pic of the waveform. It is about 300VAC P-P @ 70 hz. and 247 VDC at the storage Cap.

You can smooth out the waveform of the oscillator output by using a simple coil in series with the output. This might be better for the transformer. Maybe some non-polarized capacitors together (even better)
I think that it would be if you used a ballast coil from fluorescent lamps.

What do you all think about that??

Thanks,
Zissis

P.S.: waiting for the oscillator schematic!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on October 30, 2008, 11:56:59 PM
It's just me again,

    I did it this time at 125 psi, 2,300 rpm. The higher the pressure, the bigger the plasma gets!!! Keep in mind, I am ONLY discharging 2.5uF in these vids! The reason, I think, that I had to make a new combustion chamber plate is because my painter was using his DRY air system at the time I wanted to make another video. I used regular shop air and it has moisture in it. The plasma built up size as I increased chamber pressure........And BANG!  I'm betting the large plasma ball ignited the amount of water vapor coming through the air hose, the pressure had no where to go, so it blew out the see-through plate. It was quite a boom, I nearly wet my pants! It seems to me that using an ACTUAL combustion chamber is the only way to get an accurate test result. The shape of the head's combustion chamber is a series of angles and curves........it is that way for a reason! The link is below for the 125 psi test.  

VexUs Plasma Vs. 125 psi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo)


That is one slick setup. I'm glad you tested it at 125psi, as this puts it in the realm of what an ICE has.
Nice vid,and please keep us updated.
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ursine on October 31, 2008, 01:46:06 AM
I.ve got a 26cc 4 stroke weed whacker engine as my hho/water mist test bed. I drew a circuit I hope will eliminate the waste spark. It's a bistable oscillator triggered by a shaft mounted cam to spark Luc's plasma circuit at every other revolution. I'm not an electronics type but the only concerns are the microswitch failing after time and making sure the plasma is firing during the ignition phase and not the exhaust (waste). I'd like to replace the microswitch with a slot encoder but I'm not sure exactly how I'd add it into the circuit (my electronics training is over 30 yrs old and quite rusty).

Dave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 31, 2008, 07:25:04 AM
 New Video of VexUs re-installation
Hi guys,

The oscillator plus voltage multiplier seems successful. It's in the Bug and runs fine. The plasma spark is modest but still a plasma spark and explodes water easily.

I have gone to higher voltage and lower capacitance at the CDI Cap. The discharge is very, very fast and hard to capture the true intensity with the camera. Mike understands where I'm coming from on this issue.

The transformer warms up a little at prolonged higher RPM while driving around, but I can correct that by directing the flow from the chassis fan better.

I think I have proven that (at least my) inverters suffered control CMOS failure followed by self destruction from random power FET firing.

I'm very satisfied and confident that I can proceed to test various emulsions with this ignition system. I'm able to easily change CDI Cap values and can improve the efficiency of the voltage multiplier. My R1 resistor is 120 Ohms x 10 Watts and barely gets warm so this thing is drawing very little power. The main components in the oscillator are rated at only 5 Watts and just lope along at only modest temperatures ... warm but not hot.

The video is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMYpPzcMqeQ

Peace,

Greg

P.S. I will begin conveying the details of all of the circuit and circuit elements soon ... me pooped out for now though.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on October 31, 2008, 07:09:43 PM
 Caps
Hi all,

I added (back in from test circuit) the 1000uF x 50VDC Cap for the power into the oscillator circuit and the xformer temp dropped dramatically. It is in the foreground of the pic below.

Also, I unplugged the 3uF CDI cap and ran a 22uF cap in its place. It ran perfectly and stayed supported even at high speed .... very intense. I think it may be overkill with the higher voltage so if I 'up' C1, it'll only be to 5uF or 7.5uF. Those oil filled caps are really, really fast ... I love 'em !

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/power_cap.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on November 01, 2008, 06:32:38 AM
Bill's Nexus Circuit in Vehicle Update
Just wanted to update everyone on my progress. I have noticed that the diode banks I constructed have a tenancy to fail and cause cross talk (miss firing) after about 100 miles or so. I found that due to the way that I arranged the diodes in close proximity to each other, the HV breaks down the insulator I used and then jumps across to the nearest diode and reduces the blocking voltage. On my first diode banks I used Liquid Electrical tape on the diode leads, bent the bank every third diode and then Shrink wrapped the entire assembly. In an attempt to correct this issue, I bent the diodes back into a straight line, added another layer of liquid tape, applied a smaller size shrink wrap over the straight string of diodes and then bent them at every fifth diode to make them three wide. This version worked for a short while longer, but ultimetely still failed in the same fashion. After 150 miles the cross talk began again. I have come to the conclusion that if using a string of lower voltage diodes, they must be kept in a straight line configuration or at least maintain a distance of 1/2 inch between the leads. In my opinion, the easiest way to resolve this issue is to just use 2 to 4 HV diodes in parallel just as gmeast does. So I have ordered some 15KV 550ma diodes today and will install them as soon as they arrive. Until then the testing is on hold.

I can report that during the 100 and 150 durations, I have not had any inverter issues. I do not have any TVS installed in the circuit. I am planning on using them, but haven't ordered them yet. Need to have more items to purchase from Mouser to justify shipping costs. The TVS's don't cost very much.

Performance still appears to be enhanced using the plasma (until the diodes fail). Easier cold starts, smoother idle and acceleration. I cannot report on MPG's due to the diode issues, but I am remaining optimistic. I hope to replace the diodes and be able to use an entire tank of fuel or two to be able to make a comparison. I have been tracking my fuel consumption for some months and have a very good base line to judge it against. Once this has been done, I will begin to play with the fuel management system in order to lean out the fuel mixture.

But for now, one step at a time.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I haven't been able to post for the last couple of days and just wanted to keep everyone up to date.

Until next time,

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Spewing on November 01, 2008, 06:43:27 AM
Gotoluc have a read http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,641.60.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 01, 2008, 06:07:04 PM
Bill's Nexus Circuit in Vehicle Update
Just wanted to update everyone on my progress. I have noticed that the diode banks I constructed have a tenancy to fail and cause cross talk (miss firing) after about 100 miles or so. I found that due to the way that I arranged the diodes in close proximity to each other, the HV breaks down the insulator I used and then jumps across to the nearest diode and reduces the blocking voltage. On my first diode banks I used Liquid Electrical tape on the diode leads, bent the bank every third diode and then Shrink wrapped the entire assembly. In an attempt to correct this issue, I bent the diodes back into a straight line, added another layer of liquid tape, applied a smaller size shrink wrap over the straight string of diodes and then bent them at every fifth diode to make them three wide. This version worked for a short while longer, but ultimetely still failed in the same fashion. After 150 miles the cross talk began again. I have come to the conclusion that if using a string of lower voltage diodes, they must be kept in a straight line configuration or at least maintain a distance of 1/2 inch between the leads. In my opinion, the easiest way to resolve this issue is to just use 2 to 4 HV diodes in parallel just as gmeast does. So I have ordered some 15KV 550ma diodes today and will install them as soon as they arrive. Until then the testing is on hold.

I can report that during the 100 and 150 durations, I have not had any inverter issues. I do not have any TVS installed in the circuit. I am planning on using them, but haven't ordered them yet. Need to have more items to purchase from Mouser to justify shipping costs. The TVS's don't cost very much.

Performance still appears to be enhanced using the plasma (until the diodes fail). Easier cold starts, smoother idle and acceleration. I cannot report on MPG's due to the diode issues, but I am remaining optimistic. I hope to replace the diodes and be able to use an entire tank of fuel or two to be able to make a comparison. I have been tracking my fuel consumption for some months and have a very good base line to judge it against. Once this has been done, I will begin to play with the fuel management system in order to lean out the fuel mixture.

But for now, one step at a time.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I haven't been able to post for the last couple of days and just wanted to keep everyone up to date.

Until next time,

LapperLL

Hi LapperLL,

Hats off to your tenacity.  It takes real-world testing to reveal challenges and you have done a great job of long term testing on the Nexus circuit.  It's only this way that we all get to the finish line!

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on November 01, 2008, 06:47:59 PM
@LapperLL

You can use silicone sealant to insulate the diodes or use those high voltage laquer spray.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 01, 2008, 07:06:41 PM
Silly questions for sure, but it is hard for me to understand electronics.
Really thank you!!

Zissis


Hallo, my friends I feel really very happy to be here!
My friend zissis, I don't think that is so difficult for someone to understand electronics, when he has so many good friends here!
This is really a very interesting discussion!
I give you my best congratulations!
I will be here

Thank you very much

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on November 01, 2008, 07:38:03 PM
Hi LapperLL,

Hats off to your tenacity.  It takes real-world testing to reveal challenges and you have done a great job of long term testing on the Nexus circuit.  It's only this way that we all get to the finish line!

Peace,

Greg



Greg,

  Thank you for your encouraging words.  That means a lot coming from someone of your stature. 

I had a question on your oscillator circuit.  What values are you using for C1 & C2?  also what type of diodes for D1 & D2?

I also found this circuit on the net but have read that there are a lot of issues with finding the proper cap values to use.  It appears that what you have selected works fine.

Great job!!!

LapperLL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 01, 2008, 10:20:33 PM
Greg,

  Thank you for your encouraging words.  That means a lot coming from someone of your stature. 

I had a question on your oscillator circuit.  What values are you using for C1 & C2?  also what type of diodes for D1 & D2?

I also found this circuit on the net but have read that there are a lot of issues with finding the proper cap values to use.  It appears that what you have selected works fine.

Great job!!!

LapperLL

Hi LaperLL,

The one I downloaded is below.  I don't use the two 3055's on the right nor do I use the 0.1 Ohm resistors on the emitters (they just keep the pairs from fighting).  The diodes were 1N5408 cause I had them then got some 10 A  x 100V ones ... don't know why ... the 5408's got warm but not hot.  The mating resistors are 10 Ohm - 5 Watt.  The Caps are 470 uF x 25 VDC (pairs). Some of the online schematics say you need to use Tantalum caps but this schematic uses dumb old electrolytics joined (-) to ( -).  The mating resistors are 180 Ohm - 5 Watt.  The transformer is 115VAC Single primary x 12.6VAC Center Tapped x 0.3 Amps Mouser P/N 41PG300.  The type of load affects the frequency so if you have a scope it helps with tuning if needed.

Followed by a voltage doubler.

I have not, but I should, try the 110V x 24V or the 110V x 18V like in the picture, but I had the Mouser one.  If you build lt like the picture let me know how it goes.  The picture calls for some pretty high current xformers.

Now, this won't give the blast of an inverter and it sags at high RPM as power is drawn for the plasma ... and that's because it's not really a step up transformer ... it's run in reverse.  But this let me settle on some sort of plasma system that probably won't self destruct.  I'm only using 4 uF oil filled on the CDI Cap,  so it's a pretty modest system.  But it still explodes water.  It provides a smooth and steady (faster) idle with no choke on a cold engine and the Bug is very peppy now. 

Hope this helps.  Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/simple-inverter-2n3055.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on November 01, 2008, 11:46:06 PM
Greg,

Thanks for the info.  That is basically the same schematics that I found.  The one I found also states to use a 24vdc center tap transformer.  It even explains how to convert a MOT.  I don't think converting a MOT would be necessary as we are not drawing that much current, but maybe the 24vdc tranny will provide the voltage required at higher RPM's.  I think that I will get one of each and see which one works best.  I haven't had any inverter issues but it looks as if your oscillator draws much less power, and that is always better.

Again, thanks for the info and here is a copy of the schematic that I found.  As I stated, my research on this circuit has found that it has issues and most say it does not work as written.  I think the different cap configuration in your circuit makes it more stable and keeps the caps from exploding.

LapperLL



(http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/inverter.gif)

Part    Total Qty.       Description
   

C1, C2   2   68 uf, 25 V Tantalum Capacitor   
R1, R2   2   10 Ohm, 5 Watt Resistor   
R3, R4   2   180 Ohm, 1 Watt Resistor   
D1, D2   2   HEP 154 Silicon Diode   
Q1, Q2   2   2N3055 NPN Transistor (see "Notes")   
T1   1   24V, Center Tapped Transformer (see "Notes")   
MISC   1   Wire, Case, Receptical (For Output)   
   

Notes

   1. Q1 and Q2, as well as T1, determine how much wattage the inverter can supply. With Q1,Q2=2N3055 and T1= 15 A, the inverter can supply about 300 watts. Larger transformers and more powerful transistors can be substituted for T1, Q1 and Q2 for more power.

   2. The easiest and least expensive way to get a large T1 is to re-wind an old microwave transformer. These transformers are rated at about 1KW and are perfect. Go to a local TV repair shop and dig through the dumpster until you get the largest microwave you can find. The bigger the microwave the bigger transformer. Remove the transformer, being careful not to touch the large high voltage capacitor that might still be charged. If you want, you can test the transformer, but they are usually still good. Now, remove the old 2000 V secondary, being careful not to damage the primary. Leave the primary in tact. Now, wind on 12 turns of wire, twist a loop (center tap), and wind on 12 more turns. The guage of the wire will depend on how much current you plan to have the transformer supply. Enamel covered magnet wire works great for this. Now secure the windings with tape. Thats all there is to it. Remember to use high current transistors for Q1 and Q2. The 2N3055's in the parts list can only handle 15 amps each.

   3. Remember, when operating at high wattages, this circuit draws huge amounts of current. Don't let your battery go dead :-).

   4. Since this project produces 120 VAC, you must include a fuse and build the project in a case.

   5. You must use tantalum capacitors for C1 and C2. Regular electrolytics will overheat and explode. And yes, 68uF is the correct value. There are no substitutions.

   6. This circuit can be tricky to get going. Differences in transformers, transistors, parts substitutions or anything else not on this page may cause it to not function.

   7. If you want to make 220/240 VAC instead of 120 VAC, you need a transformer with a 220/240 primary (used as the secondary in this circuit as the transformer is backwards) instead of the 120V unit specified here. The rest of the circuit stays the same. But it takes twice the current at 12V to produce 240V as it does 120V.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 02, 2008, 12:35:19 AM
Greg,

Thanks for the info.  That is basically the same schematics that I found.  The one I found also states to use a 24vdc center tap transformer.  It even explains how to convert a MOT.  I don't think converting a MOT would be necessary as we are not drawing that much current, but maybe the 24vdc tranny will provide the voltage required at higher RPM's.  I think that I will get one of each and see which one works best.  I haven't had any inverter issues but it looks as if your oscillator draws much less power, and that is always better.

Again, thanks for the info and here is a copy of the schematic that I found.  As I stated, my research on this circuit has found that it has issues and most say it does not work as written.  I think the different cap configuration in your circuit makes it more stable and keeps the caps from exploding.

LapperLL

......................................


LapperLL,

Yeah, I just ordered a 20 VAC x 1.2A through hole tranny myself as an upgrad to what I have ... just not enough copper wire ... too high a resistance on the outbound.  Just for kicks the one I just ordered is Mouser #546-164G20 (20VCT@.6A 10V@1.2A).

I'll see if that does it ... but right now I'm still pretty happy.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 02, 2008, 12:39:20 AM
LapperLL,

Yeah, I just ordered a 20 VAC x 1.2A through hole tranny myself as an upgrad to what I have ... just not enough copper wire ... too high a resistance on the outbound.  Just for kicks the one I just ordered is Mouser #546-164G20 (20VCT@.6A 10V@1.2A).

I'll see if that does it ... but right now I'm still pretty happy.

Greg

...........also, I have a TVS across the 12VDC supply into the oscillator ... to make sure.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 02, 2008, 01:49:01 AM
Mr greg, hi, my name is Damianos
I am very happy to write here.

Some days before, I had an idea to use the AC from the altenator (generator) of the car before the "heavy" diodes in it, which make DC.
So, I borrowd for a bit and I modiffied your first plan as this in my attach.

With this idea we dont need to make AC for our transformer any more...
The only possible difficulty is to open the altenator (generator) of the car

Thank you
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 03, 2008, 05:05:52 PM
I wish a nice day to everyone,
I am here again with some small changes on the previous plan as follow:
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on November 03, 2008, 06:01:46 PM
Looks good!
L1 is used to replace the lamp, instead of limiting current, it can release a current surge stored in the magnetic field?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 03, 2008, 10:04:40 PM
Hallo again,
 I have to thank you first of all , for your question.
When we have not any load after the electroletic (with +up  and - earth ) C7 capacitor , the L1 does not work.
When we have load, this load increases the intensity , decreases the capacity of the capacitors , but this intensity automatically increases the electromagnetic field of L1 which stores energy in form of electromagnetic field.
This event makes L1 to be something like a power supplier for C7. So C7 takes energy from L1 and avoids the finishing of loading.
So the L1 takes the energy from C6 (capacitor with + and - also) and gives  it on the right time to C7.
We do all this, because we want for our Load a direct current DC as good it can be, almost like a line.
In this way we use better the energy whith is given from the transformer T1 , and T1 works as better it can.
This is an easy explanation.

Thank you again
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 03, 2008, 10:36:32 PM
I have to say something also important (I think).
Instead of one and only D1 diode, we can better put more (better up to 10) diodes in a queue, one after the other, to divide the high voltage on them.

Thank you again
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on November 03, 2008, 10:44:52 PM
Hey no problem, thank you for helping and thinking along.  8)

Why is the ohmic resisance needed?
Also, what I don't understand is, what is the function of a diode over a capacitor?

The goal the circuits posted here is to create a plasma discharge, but what is the goal of this plasma?
To better the ICE ignition process or to explode water? Or mix it and explode both?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 03, 2008, 11:21:51 PM
Thank you again.
I put the resistance to dicrease the intensity of the branch, because the  fighting works like a short circuit. So I have to protect the diodes.
The same can be happend with diode D4. We can put more than one diode to divide the voltage.
A capacitor of 10nF , over a diode , is not so much necessary but theoretically helps the diode to work better.
I did not yet make personally the experiment, but I think that the goal of plasma is to explode water.
This is a very good question of you, because I give two or three ways to use the lightning of the sparks (which comes from the ICE ignition) as a "cable".
We want this "cable" to use it as a "way" to pass the high intensity current through it, and to work "parallel" with the high voltage (of the ignition coil). In this way we believe, that we can see the plasma.
The point of this circuit is that we use the AC current of the Alternator (before its heavy diodes) as a AC source.

Thank you again
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 04, 2008, 12:27:06 AM
Hey no problem, thank you for helping and thinking along.  8)

Why is the ohmic resisance needed?
Also, what I don't understand is, what is the function of a diode over a capacitor?

The goal the circuits posted here is to create a plasma discharge, but what is the goal of this plasma?
To better the ICE ignition process or to explode water? Or mix it and explode both?


Hi Alan,

In the original circuit, a resistor R1 limits the inrush current to CDI Cap C1 so as not to destroy voltage pump (oscillator / inverter) components .. enough resistance to adequately prevent damage but low enough to get a complete charge on C1.

Initially the goal was to just explode water. Find the original ,first, post in this thread by Gotoluc.  But first we want to see the effect of plasma with just fuels and ratios. Then we want to mix and explode both ... emulsion.  Also mix Hydroxy Gas in and ignite it, and more.  Final goal ... water as fuel.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_3.jpg)


Title: Different bulb effect on plasma booster
Post by: revizal on November 04, 2008, 06:03:18 AM
All,

(Resending my posting on energeticforum)

I've completed a test using 25 watt, 60 watt, and 100 watt bulb as resistor to see the effect on plasma booster. The higher the bulb's power the louder the effect and the bigger plasma result. Here is the video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9RSA_rDR8

I hope this make a clear information about requirement of a restriction.

Revizal.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 04, 2008, 09:33:26 AM
If you allow me to make some questions please,
(Because I did not make yet the whole experiment, but I will make it soon , I hope)
When we use 100W bulb , do we get the maximum effect of the plasma or
in case we use 150W bulb , do we expect more "lightning of the plasma"? (or not).
Have these bulbs the same resistance between them or their resistance decreases by increasing the power consumption (Watts) of the bulbs?
The bulbs in your experiment use 110V voltage or 220V voltage?

Thank you 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 04, 2008, 10:05:42 AM
A more question please to all friends...

What is the reason (the need) to use high dc voltage (110V AC gives 155,56V DC  , also 220V AC gives 311,13V DC), when we want high intensity current to work parallel (and upstream?) with high voltage of the car coil?
Is there "a best combination" between  DC voltage and DC intensity that we "give" with Mr Greg's circuit?
Because if is not, then why don't we use many parallel diodes ( to have more intensity) from our battery "straight on" the car coil?

I am waiting for your opinions and ideas...
thank you
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 04, 2008, 12:33:50 PM
OK! my friends,
there is something else now.
I believe that, the "engine works with plasma" O.K.
What kind of water will we have to use?
Can we use "common" Water from the tap of our house,
or must we use (we have to buy) "clear" water without the salt of the type CaCO3 or CaO?
Can we use also salt water (with NaCl), from the see for example? Or will that be a big corrosion problem for our engine?
Will the engine has "after long use" any wear problems with the pistons?

Thank you again
(I always ask ... because I don't know...)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: revizal on November 04, 2008, 01:28:44 PM
If you allow me to make some questions please,
(Because I did not make yet the whole experiment, but I will make it soon , I hope)
When we use 100W bulb , do we get the maximum effect of the plasma or
in case we use 150W bulb , do we expect more "lightning of the plasma"? (or not).
Have these bulbs the same resistance between them or their resistance decreases by increasing the power consumption (Watts) of the bulbs?
The bulbs in your experiment use 110V voltage or 220V voltage?

Thank you 

I used 220 Volt bulb to charge 47 uF 250 volt capacitor.
Higher power consumption (watt) bulb means lower resistant.  The lower resistant make a higher intensity to charge the capacitor.
Higher capacitant of the capacitor need higher wattage bulb, especially in high frequency (charging and discharging the capacitor) or high RPM. If you compare 100 watt bulb and 150 watt bulb, you will get higer energy pump rate in 150 watt (lower resistant).
Therefor, the point is on the velocity to charging and discharging certain capacitor in high frequency instead of the capacity of CDI's capacitor.
But we must concider the ability of spark plug to carry this energy load. The spark plug have maximum rating to prevent melting on its electrode.
On my experiment 22-47 uF is good enough to create high plasma effect without any risk on the spark plug.

Rev.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 04, 2008, 03:54:46 PM
Hi Rev ,
First of all I have to thank you for your answer.
You have really done a very good job.
You see, I come from Greece, and here in our houses we use only 220V AC.
So, as I see ,and after this work, the only thing we have to do then , is to find a good place to fit the bulb in the car, (perhaps away from high Temperature) and to give our attention to protect it from any "breaking" danger.

Thank you again
I don't know... I like to learn...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 04, 2008, 04:29:08 PM
Hi Alan,

In the original circuit, a resistor R1 limits the inrush current to CDI Cap C1 so as not to destroy voltage pump (oscillator / inverter) components .. enough resistance to adequately prevent damage but low enough to get a complete charge on C1.

Initially the goal was to just explode water. Find the original ,first, post in this thread by Gotoluc.  But first we want to see the effect of plasma with just fuels and ratios. Then we want to mix and explode both ... emulsion.  Also mix Hydroxy Gas in and ignite it, and more.  Final goal ... water as fuel.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_3.jpg)




My friend Greg , I wish you a nice day.

First of all, I must give you my best congratulations for your work , and to thank you for your very polite way to share your ideas with other poeple.
In case you have enough time to answer, I would like to ask you the reason you use an "opposite direction" high intencity current unless a current with the same direction with the high voltage car coil circuit.
Well, I didn't make yet myself the experiment, and this is the reason I ask. (Perhaps you have already try it , ant it didn't work).
Anyway what do you think, does the idea worth to take AC (as a AC source) from the alternator of the car ? (before the 'heavy" diodes)
In your last plan , what is the AC voltage of your transformer (primary coil voltage and secondery coil voltage)
I would be very glad by reading your answer.

I don't know...  I like to learn...
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 04, 2008, 05:14:22 PM
A more question please to all friends...

What is the reason (the need) to use high dc voltage (110V AC gives 155,56V DC  , also 220V AC gives 311,13V DC), when we want high intensity current to work parallel (and upstream?) with high voltage of the car coil?
Is there "a best combination" between  DC voltage and DC intensity that we "give" with Mr Greg's circuit?
Because if is not, then why don't we use many parallel diodes ( to have more intensity) from our battery "straight on" the car coil?

I am waiting for your opinions and ideas...
thank you


Hi Damianos,

It has been shown in test by Gotoluc that for the same Joules of energy, a high voltage low current explodes water better than low voltage high current.  And even though an arc is somewhat self-modulating, high voltage and low current produces less plug damage and less plug heating than low voltage and high current.

My VexUs circuit does use multiple parallel HV diodes already.  I use four (4) per plug.

The exact circuit is running on my VW Bug right now.  I do not use a commercial inverter.  I built an inexpensive 2-transistor oscillator (inverter this page) and the transformer in that circuit is 115VAC x 6.0VAC - CT -  6.0VAC x 0.3A  run in reverse as a step up isolation transformer.  Decoupling via some sort of isolation transformer is important in the VexUs circuit as well as the relationship between R1 and C1 and ignition frequency.  I also use a voltage doubler producing 258VDC to the VexUs circuit.  Input voltage is 12VDC

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 04, 2008, 06:15:57 PM
My friend Greg,

first of all I have to thank you for your very useful , for me , answer.
I have also a VW in my own , but it is a POLO 1.6 injection (ALM) model 2000.
I hope nowdays to find the suitable time to work on this experiment.
I have already bought the materials.
The only work I have done until now in my car,  was only a personal and home made electrolysis set.
Let me show you a picture.

Greg , thank you very very much again for your answer. Believe me it was very very useful for me.
Thank you again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lechancel on November 04, 2008, 06:19:30 PM
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6cXO4yYW480
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 05, 2008, 01:31:32 AM
Hi everyone,

I have not posted for a while since winter started setting in Canada and I had many things to complete before it got too cold. One major project was a purchase of an old 92 VW Golf Diesel I pick-up for $200. so you can imagine it needed work to get it road worthy again. I also had planed a 2 week trip from Canada to Florida using this car. It all worked out as I am in Florida now and for the next 2 weeks.

Also to note, I just got hooked up to internet Dial-up so I will have limited access during my time in Florida.

I am happy to see that activity has continued. I will need to catch up on reading these posts.

Thank you all for sharing and keeping the topic alive.

Added:
Congratulations to the Citizens of America for Electing such a great man as Barack Obama. I have a good feeling he will be a great asset for the transformation needed in your Nation to which will have a World Wide impact.

God Bless

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on November 05, 2008, 08:36:37 AM
Good to hear from you again luc, welcome back  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: GraViTaR on November 05, 2008, 05:36:34 PM
Added:
Congratulations to the Citizens of America for Electing such a great man as Barack Obama. I have a good feeling he will be a great asset for the transformation needed in your Nation to which will have a World Wide impact.Luc

Dude, you cannot be that naive.

Obama is not a great man. He is just a puppet. So is McCain; so is Bush. so is Hillary Clinton and so was Bill Clinton.

Obama is not going to do one thing as president that is of his own design. Zbigniew Brzezinski is the one calling the shots. Everything that Obama does as president will be under the supervision of Brzezinski.

Zbigniew Brzezinski is the front man for The Trilateral Commission. They put Jimmy Carter into office. When Carter thought that he was actually in charge and tried to do things on his own, Brzezinski had the Federal Reserve jack up interest rates to sabotage the economy and make Carter look incompetent.

The Trilateral Commission's ultimate goal is to establish a trilateral, global monetary system via the United States, Europe and Japan. All this is to consolidate and streamline the control that the international private banking families of the Rothschild's already exert over the world.

Not only do they control us through the world's monetary systems, but they also control us through energy. The Rockefellers began as oil barons in the 19th Century and the Rothschilds recognized the tremendous advantages and importance of keeping the world dependent on oil. So they took the Rockefellers into their fold and built up an oil/monetary control infrastructure that exists to this day.

That is why these forums are so important: Because "pay-as-you-go" energy is how they control us, and it is up to us to smash those chains of control and to free the world.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 05, 2008, 05:49:01 PM
Got my new tranny for VexUs oscillator.

Hi all,

I just got my new tranny from Digi-Key today and changed out the old one. I also eliminated the voltage multiplier for test reasons. It is important for the plasma arc to not decrease in magnitude with increases in frequency ... or more simply engine RPM.

I have included a scope capture showing the engine running at around 4000 RPM. This can be computed from the period between each discharge event. So every 7.5 u-secs a plasma discharge occurs. With 4-cylinders and every other cycle for 4-stroke ... do the math.

The trace is the same for each event at high speed as it is for idle. The new transformer I just bought for the oscillator fully supports the energy draw required to generate the plasma events at high frequency.

As you can see the discharge transient is nearly 180+ VDC solidly and consistently without droop. I'm very satisfied.

The difference the smallest amount of water makes in the arc is astounding! I am going to introduce atomized water in the intake air as a first test. I am in the process of building a SID CELL Hydroxy generator that I will eventually run in the Bug.

Thanks for reading. Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/new_tranny.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 05, 2008, 05:50:56 PM
power usage

Hi all,

Now that I am generating ALL of the power my VexUs circuit uses (that includes the oscillator/inverter power) I can give you REAL power usage figures for the VexUs circuit.

at idle: 8A @ 13.8VDC = 110.4 Watts
at 4500 RPM: 10A @ 13.8 VDC = 138 Watts

I just wanted to share this information.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 05, 2008, 08:30:02 PM
Dude, you cannot be that naive.

Obama is not a great man. He is just a puppet. So is McCain; so is Bush. so is Hillary Clinton and so was Bill Clinton.

Obama is not going to do one thing as president that is of his own design. Zbigniew Brzezinski is the one calling the shots. Everything that Obama does as president will be under the supervision of Brzezinski.

Zbigniew Brzezinski is the front man for The Trilateral Commission. They put Jimmy Carter into office. When Carter thought that he was actually in charge and tried to do things on his own, Brzezinski had the Federal Reserve jack up interest rates to sabotage the economy and make Carter look incompetent.

The Trilateral Commission's ultimate goal is to establish a trilateral, global monetary system via the United States, Europe and Japan. All this is to consolidate and streamline the control that the international private banking families of the Rothschild's already exert over the world.

Not only do they control us through the world's monetary systems, but they also control us through energy. The Rockefellers began as oil barons in the 19th Century and the Rothschilds recognized the tremendous advantages and importance of keeping the world dependent on oil. So they took the Rockefellers into their fold and built up an oil/monetary control infrastructure that exists to this day.

That is why these forums are so important: Because "pay-as-you-go" energy is how they control us, and it is up to us to smash those chains of control and to free the world.

Hi GraViTaR,

thank you for your post as many may not be aware of this information.

I do not wish to talk politics in this topic or in any other topics mind you, as it will not help us in any way. I am aware of what you mention above but I must say that for the first time since JFK I feel this man is special and I have hope once again.

Time will tell.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 05, 2008, 08:36:21 PM
power usage

Hi all,

Now that I am generating ALL of the power my VexUs circuit uses (that includes the oscillator/inverter power) I can give you REAL power usage figures for the VexUs circuit.

at idle: 8A @ 13.8VDC = 110.4 Watts
at 4500 RPM: 10A @ 13.8 VDC = 138 Watts

I just wanted to share this information.

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,

thank you for continuing your excellent development and for sharing with all.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 05, 2008, 08:42:27 PM
It's just me again,

    I did it this time at 125 psi, 2,300 rpm. The higher the pressure, the bigger the plasma gets!!! Keep in mind, I am ONLY discharging 2.5uF in these vids! The reason, I think, that I had to make a new combustion chamber plate is because my painter was using his DRY air system at the time I wanted to make another video. I used regular shop air and it has moisture in it. The plasma built up size as I increased chamber pressure........And BANG!  I'm betting the large plasma ball ignited the amount of water vapor coming through the air hose, the pressure had no where to go, so it blew out the see-through plate. It was quite a boom, I nearly wet my pants! It seems to me that using an ACTUAL combustion chamber is the only way to get an accurate test result. The shape of the head's combustion chamber is a series of angles and curves........it is that way for a reason! The link is below for the 125 psi test.  

VexUs Plasma Vs. 125 psi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwYzEZ5gEo)


Hi jstadwater,

thank you for doing these important pressure tests and sharing your excellent video's. We now know the Plasma effect is not reduced under pressure as some may have thought.

Excellent work ;)

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 06, 2008, 01:54:56 AM
Here you go guys, we were so impressed with all the groups efforts,
and research that it inspired us to put this video production together
with every ones collective efforts.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9071695126208320206&hl=en

In fact i am so impressed with this research and how far every one is
taking it working together that i am going to talk to the Panacea
trustee's about making a donation to our head engineer Luc at the end
of the year for this research:D

Greg, Luc, lapperll, Peter Lindermann ALL! you guys all know who you
are and are mentioned and featured in this video.So you guys don't get
board, we added in our results of the booster on the Brigg's also with
the booster on the car, plus this video also features a suppressed
plug (Ian's) exclusively given to us, we also aimed to help Rob Kupra
and him, plus support the open source engineers.

You guys get the Panacea award for excellence - under the "open
source device of the year", and at the end of the year ill be talking
to Luc to help all, ill be adding to this video all other results and
our plug wear report as they come in so its a good start.

Well done guys, the video is also a compilation as well
Be on you tube as well tonight
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 06, 2008, 03:07:15 AM
Here you go guys, we were so impressed with all the groups efforts,
and research that it inspired us to put this video production together
with every ones collective efforts.
.....................................................................................


Hi Ash,

Thanks for making the video.  It is surprising the immediate benefits that can be realized with even the most modest plasma spark.  I have been steadily refining (trying anyway) the phenomena in an effort to characterize it.

As part of the effort I have been reducing the power of the circuit gradually via use of a smaller CDI Cap.  I am now at 4uF and a charging resistor of 350 Ohms.  This gives a super stable plasma event up to around 4300 RPM (4-cyl, 4-stroke).

I can start the Bug cold, no choke and take off in second gear without smoking the clutch and shifting from second to fourth ... as you have experienced.  It is also amazing to shift into third at 15 MPH and floor the accelerator pedal and the Bug just accelerates without bucking and complaining.  You CAN feel every single power pulse from each piston.  It's amazing to be combusting such a non-turbulent, poorly mixed, cold mixture like this!

Thought I'd share.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 06, 2008, 04:16:46 AM
Here you go guys, we were so impressed with all the groups efforts,
and research that it inspired us to put this video production together
with every ones collective efforts.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9071695126208320206&hl=en

In fact i am so impressed with this research and how far every one is
taking it working together that i am going to talk to the Panacea
trustee's about making a donation to our head engineer Luc at the end
of the year for this research:D

Greg, Luc, lapperll, Peter Lindermann ALL! you guys all know who you
are and are mentioned and featured in this video.So you guys don't get
board, we added in our results of the booster on the Brigg's also with
the booster on the car, plus this video also features a suppressed
plug (Ian's) exclusively given to us, we also aimed to help Rob Kupra
and him, plus support the open source engineers.

You guys get the Panacea award for excellence - under the "open
source device of the year", and at the end of the year ill be talking
to Luc to help all, ill be adding to this video all other results and
our plug wear report as they come in so its a good start.

Well done guys, the video is also a compilation as well
Be on you tube as well tonight

Wow Ash :o

thank you for your support and the recognition to the effort of some of the developing engineers. As you know, all this has only been possible though group effort so I feel a little reluctant to accept any credit.

I do have one question though,... who will be recognizing and awarding you for your non stop effort, work and contribution to alternative energy research ???

My humble hat is off to you mate ;)... as far as I know... you are the World leader in promoting awareness to Open Source Alternative Energy Research Solutions.

Thanks mate :)

Luc

 



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 06, 2008, 08:32:58 AM
Wo thanks allot Luc :o, my only reward i want is that the mainstream public know how awesome and altruistic ALL you guys all are , as long as you guys get due credit. :)
Now i am gonna get Andrew (the other half of Panacea) to make Greg's and we can compare and run them with hydroxy.

A modest spark is amazing alright ;D. Lets not forget Rob Kupra got 44% ,even with a modified ignition?, WHERE IS THAT ENERGY COMING FROM? It coming from the NORMAL car ignition or battery?. That's allot of power to get 44%, catch my drift, we would be getting more power for 10 amps on Gregs, ill put the car on the Dyno in December and see if we can take a closer look at how much power.

Okay its been 5 days of 1hour trips, tomorrow is D day, if no plug wear with hydroxy, you guys have done it!
If so, wont matter, we will just keep testing and working on it simple as that. It an honor to watch you all work together .

Sincerely
Ash

Ps, ill be adding allot of updates and the groups progress to that video as we get it.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on November 06, 2008, 03:04:43 PM
  Great work everyone. Ive been following all this for about 5 months. Trying to play catchup, but your creating faster than I can build. I have a briggs engine built with a geet system setup on it with an altanator hooked to it.I've built the plasma spark system and am finishing an HHO cell today. I hope to get it all put together in the next few days.Then maybe I can contribute with a little bit of testing.
  Keep up the great work , this is Kool stuff, and maybe together we can all start to change the world.

    Gourdman
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 06, 2008, 03:08:25 PM
Welcome Gourdman plz make some educational vids if you are able would love to see your experiments :)
Your in the company of the warmest hard working OPEN SOURCE crew in the world. Thanks for taking an interest.

Ash
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 06, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Wo thanks allot Luc :o, my only reward i want is that the mainstream public know how awesome and altruistic ALL you guys all are , as long as you guys get due credit. :)
Now i am gonna get Andrew (the other half of Panacea) to make Greg's and we can compare and run them with hydroxy.

A modest spark is amazing alright ;D. Lets not forget Rob Kupra got 44% ,even with a modified ignition?, WHERE IS THAT ENERGY COMING FROM? It coming from the NORMAL car ignition or battery?. That's allot of power to get 44%, catch my drift, we would be getting more power for 10 amps on Gregs, ill put the car on the Dyno in December and see if we can take a closer look at how much power.

Okay its been 5 days of 1hour trips, tomorrow is D day, if no plug wear with hydroxy, you guys have done it!
If so, wont matter, we will just keep testing and working on it simple as that. It an honor to watch you all work together .

Sincerely
Ash

Ps, ill be adding allot of updates and the groups progress to that video as we get it.



Hi Ash,

The NET is actually 6 amps (at high speed, 3 amps at idle) because the oscillator / inverter is consuming 4 amps ... which I was not thrilled with.  The Transistor design I've used for it is mostly immune to RF CMOS spike failure like happened with my other inverters.

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 06, 2008, 03:58:27 PM
Heya Greg, sorry dood my bad :P

You know if i put that Bug on a dyno and i say 6amps peak to the power your getting, i dont think it will be under a COP of 1 personally.
i mean how can 6 amps give all that energy to the bug. I have seen ours ROCKET along with 6 amps too, (8 amps peak)

Ill say again, how does the fire storm spark plug get 44% with out extra energy input? FORTY FOUR PERCENT HELLO
I think this circuit is OU

Lets see on the Dyno shall we (in December)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 06, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
  Great work everyone. Ive been following all this for about 5 months. Trying to play catchup, but your creating faster than I can build. I have a briggs engine built with a geet system setup on it with an altanator hooked to it.I've built the plasma spark system and am finishing an HHO cell today. I hope to get it all put together in the next few days.Then maybe I can contribute with a little bit of testing.
  Keep up the great work , this is Kool stuff, and maybe together we can all start to change the world.

    Gourdman

Hi gourdman,

thank you for your interest in the water power spark. I was hoping someone with a working GEET would come forward and test the plasma spark to see if it would help in any way to further boost the % of water the GEET system can take. As you and others who have built or studied the GEET there seems to be a maximum of 80% water mixture it can take and anything over that it's a no go. I would be very interested to see it brought to its limits and turn on a switch to engage the plasma spark and see if it can help to further its water handling capabilities.

Please keep us up to date no matter how small the advantages and if you need any help please post your questions.

Thanks for your help and sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 06, 2008, 06:05:24 PM
Luc and all those working with the GEET please drop me an email i have a file you need
ashtweth@gmail.com
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on November 06, 2008, 07:09:59 PM
Heya Greg, sorry dood my bad :P

You know if i put that Bug on a dyno and i say 6amps peak to the power your getting, i dont think it will be under a COP of 1 personally.
i mean how can 6 amps give all that energy to the bug. I have seen ours ROCKET along with 6 amps too, (8 amps peak)

Ill say again, how does the fire storm spark plug get 44% with out extra energy input? FORTY FOUR PERCENT HELLO
I think this circuit is OU

Lets see on the Dyno shall we (in December)

44% gain is very very good, but this depends on which engine we are talking about. Getting that sort of gain in a highy tuned super efficient engine is going to be a big WOW.  ;D

Its pretty much the same as changing a badly designed stock exhaust would benefit the greatest gain, while an already optimized system would probably only get 1% gain.

You know how things get marketed these days  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on November 07, 2008, 02:02:40 AM
44% gain is very very good, but this depends on which engine we are talking about. Getting that sort of gain in a highy tuned super efficient engine is going to be a big WOW.  ;D

Its pretty much the same as changing a badly designed stock exhaust would benefit the greatest gain, while an already optimized system would probably only get 1% gain.

You know how things get marketed these days  ;)


krupa stated that the huge gains came out when the air fuel ratio was tweaked from 14:1 (normal) to 30:1and out of no where around 100 hp came out of nowhere.....something happened around high air to fuel ratios....listen to his radio interview on the blog talk radio website under water fuel museum. he considered his spark plugs to be "plasma flame"
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 07, 2008, 10:04:00 AM
I wish you a wonderful good morning...
The weather here in Greece (South Europe) is good enough.
Yesterday, I made plasma myself, using my friends greg plan (as it is already shown).
I took 220Volt AC (electricity of Europe), and I read 315Volt DC on my multimeter (voltmeter).
I used the C capacitor = 470uF/400Volt as it was (in the plan).
Instead of a resistor 100watt i use a bulb 220volt 100watt (Europe). I measured its resistance and it was 38 Ohm.
The only thing i changed on my friend greg's plan was the C1=10-47uF capacitor , which in my case (Europe) should be (as it is shown) 1uF/500volt and it worked very good.

The video i took is on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgqsxp7sdFE

I used for electronic ignition the already known plan which uses the tip 122 transistor.

I am always here with you, to take and give experience, and  to support our forum
Thank you very much again
I wish you a nice day

Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 07, 2008, 10:55:07 AM
Hi guys, finally in. Now mixed results, seemed like we got 5% better MPG or so, which adding to the booster being 16% is still significant 21%:) . Now no one would be with out this plug circuit (as is) to start their car in winter. Even if they didn't run the circuit all the time and just bi- passed it after starting, Greg already showed us how useful it is by being able to start with no choke etc.

Here are the snaps of plugs after an average of 50 minutes driving a day for 6 days no rest. I think they held up OKAY, BUT There is some SLIGHT wear as you can see. Rev's circuit may still need less caps and more voltage IMO. We are gonna try that next. Greg may have found the best balance.:D

http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0008pj9.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0008pj9.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0007zo5.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0007zo5.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0006rq0.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0006rq0.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0006wh9.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0006wh9.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0005hd9.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0005hd9.jpg)

Here are the custom leads Andrew made
Which comprise 16 diodes 1000 Volt 3 amps
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0009bl7.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0009bl7.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 07, 2008, 04:18:30 PM
I wish you a wonderful good morning...
The weather here in Greece (South Europe) is good enough.
Yesterday, I made plasma myself, using my friends greg plan (as it is already shown).
I took 220Volt AC (electricity of Europe), and I read 315Volt DC on my multimeter (voltmeter).
I used the C capacitor = 470uF/400Volt as it was (in the plan).
Instead of a resistor 100watt i use a bulb 220volt 100watt (Europe). I measured its resistance and it was 38 Ohm.
The only thing i changed on my friend greg's plan was the C1=10-47uF capacitor , which in my case (Europe) should be (as it is shown) 1uF/500volt and it worked very good.

The video i took is on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgqsxp7sdFE

I used for electronic ignition the already known plan which uses the tip 122 transistor.

I am always here with you, to take and give experience, and  to support our forum
Thank you very much again
I wish you a nice day

Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...

Hi Damianos,

good for you ;)... I am happy you are enjoying to do this research. Thank you for sharing your results.

I took the liberty to add your YouTube link directly in your post which makes it easier for viewers.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on November 07, 2008, 04:40:24 PM
Heya Greg, sorry dood my bad :P

You know if i put that Bug on a dyno and i say 6amps peak to the power your getting, i dont think it will be under a COP of 1 personally.
i mean how can 6 amps give all that energy to the bug. I have seen ours ROCKET along with 6 amps too, (8 amps peak)

Ill say again, how does the fire storm spark plug get 44% with out extra energy input? FORTY FOUR PERCENT HELLO
I think this circuit is OU

Lets see on the Dyno shall we (in December)
44% of what?
mpg increase?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 07, 2008, 04:51:36 PM
Hi guys, finally in. Now mixed results, seemed like we got 5% better MPG or so, which adding to the booster being 16% is still significant 21%:) . Now no one would be with out this plug circuit (as is) to start their car in winter. Even if they didn't run the circuit all the time and just bi- passed it after starting, Greg already showed us how useful it is by being able to start with no choke etc.

Here are the snaps of plugs after an average of 50 minutes driving a day for 6 days no rest. I think they held up OKAY, BUT There is some SLIGHT wear as you can see. Rev's circuit may still need less caps and more voltage IMO. We are gonna try that next. Greg may have found the best balance.:D

http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0008pj9.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0008pj9.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0007zo5.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0007zo5.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0006rq0.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0006rq0.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0006wh9.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0006wh9.jpg)
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0005hd9.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0005hd9.jpg)

Here are the custom leads Andrew made
Which comprise 16 diodes 1000 Volt 3 amps
ImageShack - Hosting :: pic0009bl7.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0009bl7.jpg)

Great documentation Ash ;)... thanks for taking the time to do this. User name: Unclefester who use to post here and work for Krupa on development of the Firestorm Plug plasma circuit said they needed to use a superior alloy for the plug to last even with his design.

It will be important to find out what double the voltage but using same Joule energy would do in the same test period.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 07, 2008, 05:46:40 PM
>It will be important to find out what double the voltage but using same Joule energy would do in the same test period.

Luc, you guys work your butts off, its not often we get access to resources, so for this Dyno in December, your my head engineers  8) ;D AND ANY  requests and test you want lay it on me man.
Okay ill ask Andrew to tweak Rev's circuity based on double the voltage but using same Joule energy would do in the same test period. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on November 07, 2008, 07:07:13 PM

krupa stated that the huge gains came out when the air fuel ratio was tweaked from 14:1 (normal) to 30:1and out of no where around 100 hp came out of nowhere.....something happened around high air to fuel ratios....listen to his radio interview on the blog talk radio website under water fuel museum. he considered his spark plugs to be "plasma flame"

Thats good to hear, I hope we get to that stage in pulling out 100hp more out of an engine  8)


44% of what?
mpg increase?


I think it must be 44% power gain according to the quote above.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on November 07, 2008, 08:01:59 PM
Thats good to hear, I hope we get to that stage in pulling out 100hp more out of an engine  8)


I think it must be 44% power gain according to the quote above.

it was actually an increase in mileage and a 90 percent decrease to nearly no pollution coming from the exhaust......they said that when the 100hp came out of nowhere the car almost jumped off the dyno......they sadi they would have kept trying higher and higher fuel to air ratios but the uy that wrote the program just stopped at 30:1......krupa said he doesn't know what would have happened if the air to fuel kept becoming leaner and leaner.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 07, 2008, 08:43:54 PM
Hi Damianos,

good for you ;)... I am happy you are enjoying to do this research. Thank you for sharing your results.

I took the liberty to add your YouTube link directly in your post which makes it easier for viewers.

Luc

Hi my friend gotoluc, Thank you.
You did of course very very good. I feel that we are a team here, and this way it is much easier for all viewers (as you said).
It was really an absolutely perfect job. Thank you again my brother for your interest for our Forum.
Thank you
Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 02:41:41 AM
>It will be important to find out what double the voltage but using same Joule energy would do in the same test period.

Luc, you guys work your butts off, its not often we get access to resources, so for this Dyno in December, your my head engineers  8) ;D AND ANY  requests and test you want lay it on me man.
Okay ill ask Andrew to tweak Rev's circuity based on double the voltage but using same Joule energy would do in the same test period. ;)

Excellent Ash ;)

I attached a voltage doubler circuit just in case Andrew needs it.

Thanks for the Dyno offer, I'll keep it in mind ::)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 08, 2008, 02:45:04 AM
I wish you a wonderful good morning...
The weather here in Greece (South Europe) is good enough.
Yesterday, I made plasma myself, using my friends greg plan (as it is already shown).
I took 220Volt AC (electricity of Europe), and I read 315Volt DC on my multimeter (voltmeter).
I used the C capacitor = 470uF/400Volt as it was (in the plan).
Instead of a resistor 100watt i use a bulb 220volt 100watt (Europe). I measured its resistance and it was 38 Ohm.
The only thing i changed on my friend greg's plan was the C1=10-47uF capacitor , which in my case (Europe) should be (as it is shown) 1uF/500volt and it worked very good.

The video i took is on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgqsxp7sdFE

I used for electronic ignition the already known plan which uses the tip 122 transistor.

I am always here with you, to take and give experience, and  to support our forum
Thank you very much again
I wish you a nice day

Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...

Hi Damianos,

Super name you have there.  Great job man.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 02:52:26 AM
it was actually an increase in mileage and a 90 percent decrease to nearly no pollution coming from the exhaust......they said that when the 100hp came out of nowhere the car almost jumped off the dyno......they sadi they would have kept trying higher and higher fuel to air ratios but the uy that wrote the program just stopped at 30:1......krupa said he doesn't know what would have happened if the air to fuel kept becoming leaner and leaner.


Thank you kinesisfilms, you have all of Robert Krupa's stated facts very clear as I can see and your input is helpful.

Keep up the good work so we can keep the facts right ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 08, 2008, 03:34:57 AM
Thanks allot for the circuit Luc!!! Okay will give that a go, any thing else needing tinkering or that you want us to try let us know :) . thanks allot mate!!!!! will update the groups PDF with it also ;D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 06:43:42 AM
Thanks Ash ;D   just testing double voltage at same Joule power, tested for the same period of time for plug wear will be a very important test.

Here is a good online Joule calculator if you need one: http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php

Oh ya, one more thing, you should get a new set of plugs so you have something to compare with. Also make sure to note down your first test capacitor values and charged voltage.

Thanks mate ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 08, 2008, 06:56:43 AM
Good points Luc, done got a new set of 4 plugs ;D
Thanks man.


Ash
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 08, 2008, 09:53:24 AM
Hi guys

I have had success getting a fuel vapour sytsem to work. Its not related to this topic, but I'm hoping that maybe Luc might find it intersting with his GEET work.

My topic   http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6007.new#new

Cheers

PS77
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 08, 2008, 02:23:59 PM
Thanks plasmastudent77 !!
ill add this to the uni web site for all for you :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: grahamsa on November 08, 2008, 03:24:52 PM
HI all
im new, all the way from south africa. very interested in the plasma spark tech. i have a feeling it is the way forward :)
i have a few questions:

1. it was posted earlier that, running a 30:1 mix and a proper atomisation method, not a carb or injection, would work well and not generate too much heat. WHAT is the correct fuel induction method to use?

2. can the plasma circuitry be used on a modern motor (with out a conventional coil, dizzy setup)?

3. for best results, should the plasma spark be run with a lean petrol mix with water injection and a hho generator?

4. if so what is the best method of water mist injection?

i realize these may be simply questions, but answers will greatly increase my understanding of the tech, as well as give me an idea of the long term goal.

many thanks!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on November 08, 2008, 04:08:28 PM
    I have modified generators in the past too run on propane.  There are a number of adjustments to be made to the engine.  Timing issues and valve lubrication systems which basically boil down to dropping light weight oil in the intake manifold. 
    I believe that the popping heard when the water is misted onto the plasma stream is not hydrogen and oxygen exploding.  What is happening is that the plasma acts like a static discharge that lasts for a long long time.  This discharge breaks the water molecule to molecule bonds.  And the water becomes h20gaseous.  Steam.  It will revert to water very quickly as there is no thermal agitation of the water molecules like in a boiler.  To increase the pop it may be necessary to ionize the intake air so that the whole mix is electrically active. 
   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 05:22:21 PM
Hi guys

I have had success getting a fuel vapour sytsem to work. Its not related to this topic, but I'm hoping that maybe Luc might find it intersting with his GEET work.

My topic   http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6007.new#new

Cheers

PS77

Thanks plasmastudent77 for doing these tests and starting this topic. I did post in your topic and wish you the best.

Thank for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 06:39:12 PM
HI all
im new, all the way from south africa. very interested in the plasma spark tech. i have a feeling it is the way forward :)
i have a few questions:

1. it was posted earlier that, running a 30:1 mix and a proper atomisation method, not a carb or injection, would work well and not generate too much heat. WHAT is the correct fuel induction method to use?

2. can the plasma circuitry be used on a modern motor (with out a conventional coil, dizzy setup)?

3. for best results, should the plasma spark be run with a lean petrol mix with water injection and a hho generator?

4. if so what is the best method of water mist injection?

i realize these may be simply questions, but answers will greatly increase my understanding of the tech, as well as give me an idea of the long term goal.

many thanks!

Hi grahamsa and welcome to this topic.

You have some good questions there and I wish I had the answers to them but we have not wet found the best and most efficient ways. We are only starting to look at these. The 30:1 ratio test was done by Robert Krupa who is independently working on developing his Firestorm Plasma plug for marketing. So the full details of his work are not publicly shared as we are sharing here.

We will get there but the time will depend on public open forum participation.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 06:42:26 PM
    I have modified generators in the past too run on propane.  There are a number of adjustments to be made to the engine.  Timing issues and valve lubrication systems which basically boil down to dropping light weight oil in the intake manifold. 
    I believe that the popping heard when the water is misted onto the plasma stream is not hydrogen and oxygen exploding.  What is happening is that the plasma acts like a static discharge that lasts for a long long time.  This discharge breaks the water molecule to molecule bonds.  And the water becomes h20gaseous.  Steam.  It will revert to water very quickly as there is no thermal agitation of the water molecules like in a boiler.  To increase the pop it may be necessary to ionize the intake air so that the whole mix is electrically active. 
   

Hi sparks,

thanks for your input. I really like this idea: To increase the pop it may be necessary to ionize the intake air so that the whole mix is electrically active. 

thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 08, 2008, 07:04:52 PM
Hi Damianos,

Super name you have there.  Great job man.

Peace,

Greg


Hi Greg,

First of all I have to thank you for your good words and for your very very useful help.
I will not stop here, I will  keep on working...
Thank you again my friend.

Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: thermalenergy on November 08, 2008, 09:50:15 PM
Hi sparks,

thanks for your input. I really like this idea: To increase the pop it may be necessary to ionize the intake air so that the whole mix is electrically active. 

thanks for sharing.

Luc

Hi Luc,
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned turning a sparkplug into a Magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) Thruster, similar to a Lorentz Force Motor, but using plasma instead, and accerating it magnetically. Instead of using a small center electrode within a ceramic insulator, how about using a solenoid coil around the plug to magnetically charge the core. Then the water doesn't need to get right into the plug to burn because the plasma will come out to burn it. The plug should have a funnel-shaped opening of course. Wouldn't want to cut a plasma whole right through the piston! Attached is a picture from the myelectricengine site, http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/mpdthruster.html .
P.S.
I'd like to draw and test some circuits, but need some free open-source drawing software to work in Windows. Anybody know of something like that?
Thanks to you all,
Joel
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 08, 2008, 11:19:40 PM
Hi my friends,

I have already tested  something else.
Perhaps many of you, already know that (I don't know), but in any case, i will tell it to you.

I use the always same type of spark (it is NGK 7811 BP6ES) and i will tell you this as an information.
So , Instead of (to make the experiment) the 100W /220V bulb (resistor) , i used a ballast (which we use for neon lamps, type TRL for L65/58 230V , 50Hz, and  22  Ohm resistance) and it worked with C1=1uF just good (I was not to much satisfied)

Then I tried to connect the 100W /220V bulb with the ballast (as a queue, the one after the other) and it did not work (absolutely nothing).
After this i put again the bulb and i made the test again by using now a C1 = 8uF capacitor and it work very good.
I tried it also with a C1=16uF capacitor and it worked much better. (but when i spraied water on it, water made a small explosion and then stopped, i don't know why , perhaps the amount of the water was to much , i really  don't know).

(I have to say, that unfortunatelly I have not a capacity meter, to measure the "real", exact capacity of the capacitors. So, when I tell you a capacity, I mean only the number of the capacity it is written on the capacitor, just thinking that it is true).

Finally I changed the 100W/220V bulb with a 150W/220V bulb (with 33  Ohm resistance) and i used a C1= 1uF, and It worked.
I made the same with C1=9uF and it worked better.
I also made the same with C1=17uF and It worked  very very good.

So I made a small video with this last job.

On this small video you see the 150W/220V bulb (with 33  Ohm resistance) working with a C1=17uF.
So please , allow me show you the following...

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxSYJyS3DU

Thank you very, very much again,
your friend
Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 09, 2008, 12:05:07 AM
video corroborating pressure = intensified plasma

Hi all,

I have just posted a new little video corroborating what others have claimed. Mike posted a great video showing that increased pressure enhances the plasma spark.

I built the small fixture pictured below and ran the spark from the on board system running the plasma circuit on the Bug.

The Digital video doesn't do it justice but the contrast can easily be seen. Enjoy the video and I hope it answers some questions and erases doubts and conflicting opinions re: pressure and plasma ignition sparks.

The video is at:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MP9CiEOEFY

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/pressure_fixture.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on November 09, 2008, 12:57:01 AM
Hello Greg,

Nice handy work, it really is very nice to be able to see the reaction under pressure, thanks for sharing your test....

Greg if you have time could you draw one of your simple schematic's of your oscillator circuit with all value parts you used, thanks a million!!!!

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 09, 2008, 02:12:14 AM
@Luc

This is Andrew speaking: Where abouts would the current limiting go in the voltage doubler circuit? The AC side or the DC side?
What type of current limiter will work for the doubler and if it is a light bulb on the DC side, would we need two light bulbs in series to be able to handle the voltage?

Andrew
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on November 09, 2008, 02:28:57 AM
@Luc

This is Andrew speaking: Where abouts would the current limiting go in the voltage doubler circuit? The AC side or the DC side?
What type of current limiter will work for the doubler and if it is a light bulb on the DC side, would we need two light bulbs in series to be able to handle the voltage?

Andrew


Hi guys,

I also use a voltage doubler that gives approx. 290vdc......I use a 200 watt bulb on the AC side of the doubler...

Regards,

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 09, 2008, 04:09:06 AM
Hello Greg,

Nice handy work, it really is very nice to be able to see the reaction under pressure, thanks for sharing your test....

Greg if you have time could you draw one of your simple schematic's of your oscillator circuit with all value parts you used, thanks a million!!!!

Regards,

HV

Hi HV,

Thank you and I'll do it soon.  The oscillator is just a very generic 2 - transistor inverter built with 2N3055 transistors and a transformer.  One version uses 4 transistors and another uses 2.  They are virtually identical.  I have a concern about power ratings on the 3055's so Monday I have some alternates coming in.  As soon as I test those in my bench circuit (identical to the one in the Bug) I will post my nearly final config, schemes, parts, values, etc.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on November 09, 2008, 04:21:23 AM
Thanks Greg I look forward to it !!!

HV
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 05:10:53 AM
Hi Luc,
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned turning a sparkplug into a Magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) Thruster, similar to a Lorentz Force Motor, but using plasma instead, and accerating it magnetically. Instead of using a small center electrode within a ceramic insulator, how about using a solenoid coil around the plug to magnetically charge the core. Then the water doesn't need to get right into the plug to burn because the plasma will come out to burn it. The plug should have a funnel-shaped opening of course. Wouldn't want to cut a plasma whole right through the piston! Attached is a picture from the myelectricengine site, http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/mpdthruster.html .
P.S.
I'd like to draw and test some circuits, but need some free open-source drawing software to work in Windows. Anybody know of something like that?
Thanks to you all,
Joel

Hi Joel,

thank you for posting your idea. It sounds very interesting and I hope you can find the software you need.

Please keep us updated of your work and development.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 05:31:13 AM
@Luc

This is Andrew speaking: Where abouts would the current limiting go in the voltage doubler circuit? The AC side or the DC side?
What type of current limiter will work for the doubler and if it is a light bulb on the DC side, would we need two light bulbs in series to be able to handle the voltage?

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

the only circuit I have built and tested is the one I started the topic with. It does not require a current limiting resistor (bulb) because of its design and simplicity but it can't be easily adapted to a car ignition as Greg's Vexus circuit. So I don't know if I would be the best at giving you advice. But I think if the bulb is on the AC side it should work well.

happyvaley808 has offered his opinion.

@Greg,  if anything needs to be added here please do help.

Thanks guys ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 05:49:48 AM
Hi my friends,

I have already tested  something else.
Perhaps many of you, already know that (I don't know), but in any case, i will tell it to you.

I use the always same type of spark (it is NGK 7811 BP6ES) and i will tell you this as an information.
So , Instead of (to make the experiment) the 100W /220V bulb (resistor) , i used a ballast (which we use for neon lamps, type TRL for L65/58 230V , 50Hz, and  22  Ohm resistance) and it worked with C1=1uF just good (I was not to much satisfied)

Then I tried to connect the 100W /220V bulb with the ballast (as a queue, the one after the other) and it did not work (absolutely nothing).
After this i put again the bulb and i made the test again by using now a C1 = 8uF capacitor and it work very good.
I tried it also with a C1=16uF capacitor and it worked much better. (but when i spraied water on it, water made a small explosion and then stopped, i don't know why , perhaps the amount of the water was to much , i really  don't know).

(I have to say, that unfortunatelly I have not a capacity meter, to measure the "real", exact capacity of the capacitors. So, when I tell you a capacity, I mean only the number of the capacity it is written on the capacitor, just thinking that it is true).

Finally I changed the 100W/220V bulb with a 150W/220V bulb (with 33  Ohm resistance) and i used a C1= 1uF, and It worked.
I made the same with C1=9uF and it worked better.
I also made the same with C1=17uF and It worked  very very good.

So I made a small video with this last job.

On this small video you see the 150W/220V bulb (with 33  Ohm resistance) working with a C1=17uF.
So please , allow me show you the following...

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxSYJyS3DU

Thank you very, very much again,
your friend
Damianos

I don't know... I like to learn...

Hi Damianos,

most excellent ;D ... welcome to the plasma club ;)

Great work

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 05:54:58 AM
video corroborating pressure = intensified plasma

Hi all,

I have just posted a new little video corroborating what others have claimed. Mike posted a great video showing that increased pressure enhances the plasma spark.

I built the small fixture pictured below and ran the spark from the on board system running the plasma circuit on the Bug.

The Digital video doesn't do it justice but the contrast can easily be seen. Enjoy the video and I hope it answers some questions and erases doubts and conflicting opinions re: pressure and plasma ignition sparks.

The video is at:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MP9CiEOEFY

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/pressure_fixture.jpg)


Excellent setup, test and video presentation Greg ;D... If you could get a hold of a vacuum pump it would be interesting to see what happens under vacuum ;)

Just be careful, as I don't think it has been tested yet.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 06:35:36 AM
@everyone,

for those who are not following the topic at the Energetic Forum I am posting this information here for your information.

I was asking if a user knew about when we lean out fuel if the exhaust temperature increases.

Reply by User: Jetijs
That is how it is supposed to be and this is because if you have a rich mixture, there is more moisture (gasoline) in the mix thus it cools the cylinder. When you run leaner, there is more air and less moisture that could cool the engine. I can see this if I run my genset and monitor the temperatures. If I close the air intake of the carburetor a bit, more vacuum is created to suck more gasoline in the engine making the mixture richer. And the temperature goes down a bit. But on the other hand, every time I turn the vexus booster side ON, the engine exhaust temperature drops by about 10-15 degree Celsius.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Reply from me: gotoluc
Thanks Jetijs for your input to this question. I ask this because some months back at the Overunity water power topic there was an exchange about this. The posters were saying that rich gasoline mixture are used just to keep engine cylinders cool... this was the first time I heard about this. I know there are CRAZY things in this World but using gasoline to cool the cylinder >:( ... so, use twice the fuel and create more than twice the pollution.

Please someone, tell me this is not true, we cannot be that stupid... and for close to 100 years we have let this happen and basically trashed our Environment

I would want my engine cylinder walls to heat to the highest temperature possible since immediately after the plasma spark event I would want an injector to mist water on the hot surfaces to get a flash steam explosion to kick that piston to free energy Kingdom... say, wouldn't that take care of the cooling needed also

Luc

Reply by Greg User: gmeast
Hi Luc,

Sad to say it's true. The perfect fuel-air mixture (stoichiometric ratio) is too hot for valves and valve seats, also it produces high concentrations of Oxides of Nitrogen so the mixture is rich to compensate. But now there are too many Hydrocarbons so you need a catalytic converter. It's a stupid, stupid circle. A 30 MPG car could actually be getting 45 - 50 MPG!

Yes! ... leanest mixture, plasma ignition, water injection, problems solved.

Peace,

Greg


Reply by User: Allcanadian

It is true, extra fuel was added to cool the cylinders then when emmission standards came along they invented the catalytic converter, but the converter would not run hot enough so they added even MORE extra fuel to cool the cylinders AND keep the catalytic converter hot. Our automotive engineers are a disgrace to the very profession they include themselves in and I have little use for their nonsense. On a brighter side we can undo their stupidity, twenty years ago I started experimenting with perfect combustion and detonation combustion. I developed a very simple circuit in which a thermocouple monitored the EGT(exhaust gas temperature) and this thermocouple signal was sent to the circuit to control a transistor which then controlled a small (variable speed) water injection pump---windshield washer pump. As the EGT rises more water mist is injected at the carb inlet this keeps the EGT at a constant temperature. Your engine is now a "Constant Temperature Engine" you can run the EGT at any temperature you want. In this case when your Air/Fuel ratio is leaned out the circuit automatically compensates to hold the EGT constant. If you run the EGT below 200 Deg it should be obvious that the glycol/water cooling system is no longer required.
Next, to set the air/fuel ratio I added another butterfly valve downstream of the carburator to admit fresh air into the intake manifold. This Extra air was mixed proportionally with fuel/air from the carburator to set the actual air/fuel ratio into the motor. The extra air butterfly valve was controlled through a non-linear linkage which connected to the carburator linkage, both intakes were connected to a common aircleaner filter. The non-linear linkage keeps the air/fuel ratio slightly lean at idle and progressively gets leaner as the throttle is opened, if you get way too lean the worst that can happen is you start losing power or the engine will misfire. I installed these systems on a VW and a 1974 Chev 1/2 ton with 350 engine,two barrel carb,turbo 350 transmission, I will not even mention the maximum miles per gallon I achieved because quite frankly you would not believe me.
This system works fine on older vehicles or small motors but as you can imagine it is very hard to install on newer vehicles because of the electronics.
One engine I found interesting in recent years was the "six stroke engine" which uses the same principals I have outlined but is much more complicated.
Regards
AC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 09, 2008, 09:55:12 AM
Hi Damianos,

most excellent ;D ... welcome to the plasma club ;)

Great work

Luc

Hi my friend gotoluc,

i feel you like a family.
Thank you again for your good words. I am always trying to do my best.
I am very happy and i am here with you.
Thank you again.

Your friend
 Damianos


I don't know...  I like to learn...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on November 09, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Rare video of Daniel dingel year 1999

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=msFphgFzCyE&fmt=18
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: supermuble on November 09, 2008, 05:02:02 PM
I have an Exhaust Gas temperature gauge on my car, and a wide band air/fuel ratio monitor. So I can compare both, live, on the fly while I drive my car. I also built a computer system that can control my air fuel mixture.

Here is what happens:

At 13.5:1 air/fuel mixture with normal gasoline, you get maximum power.
At 12.5:1 air/fuel mixture power trails off a little bit since there is not enough oxygen available and the fuel does not burn completely, which means there is a small cooling of the charge (less expansion during the power stroke)
At 11:1 the car runs like a slug. You get very sluggish performance and EGT (exhaust gas temperature) goes down up to 300 degrees to about 1150 degrees F instead of (1350-1450)

Approaching 14.7:1 you get a more complete burn, and better fuel economy. This is the ratio that is REQUIRED for catalytic converters to function, otherwise there is either too much heat, or too much raw unburned fuel going into the catalytic converter and it can't possibly function at peak efficiency and you'll fail an emissions test. The oil companies and car companies are OBVIOUSLY trying to make as much money as possible, because gasoline is inherently flawed. Without a hydrogen catalyst (Water Fuel) you cannot run an engine in a lean burn mode (above 18:1) air/fuel.

My vehicle is emissions exempt, due to the local laws. So I can run my car LEANER than 14.7:1 to get better fuel economy. Beyond 14.7:1 air/fuel, you are putting more air into your motor than the fuel can possibly use. Believe it or not, gasoline will not burn LEAN. The engine design, and the fuel prohibits a lean burn condition.

At 16.5:1 air/fuel mixture, I can turn in maximum fuel economy while the flame speed is still good enough in the engine to make decent power, and smooth operation. Since there is an abundance of air (oxygen) in the cylinder - more than is necessary - I am getting a very complete burn out of the fuel. Between 14.7:1 and 16.5:1 there is such a small difference in EGT that is not noticeable.

At 18:1 air/fuel the engine starts cutting off. Gasoline vapor burns too slowly at this ratio. There is not enough gasoline vapor in the cylinder, and yet there is an abundance of air. The resulting combustion is too slow to do any work, since the piston speed is nearly the same speed as the combustion, the combustion doesn't really do anything. The fuel burns, but the power declines sharply, making the engine very rough running and very low on power. Above 18.5:1 or so, my vehicle will not drive, it starts bucking as the fuel mixture is on the threshhold and will not run.

During cruise, part throttle, 16.5:1 air/fuel, I get 1000F EGT (this is very good for fuel economy).
During WOT (wide open throttle) at 13:1 air/fuel I have 1300-1450 F at the exhaust.

The reason you use more gasoline during full throttle is due to the increased pressures. Light fuel mixtures are more difficult to control, since there is more oxygen available, the fuel mixtures have a tendency to combust before the spark plug fires (detonation/pinging). If this happens at full throttle, it can damage your head gasket or destroy your pistons (I've done it many times). So what you do is richen the fuel mixture. The exhaust temperature goes down, and there is less possibility of detonation. However, gasoline is NOT GOOD at cooling an engine. Gasoline does not have a very high Latent Heat of Vaporization energy rating. On the other hand, water does. If you spray a mist of water into your engine, then you can cool the engine WITHOUT directly effecting the fuel mixture, hence you can run whatever air/fuel mixture you want without worrying about detonation (engine damage). This is why in WWII they started using water injection on air planes since the water can prevent pinging, all while using a standard fuel mixture (14.7:1).

Water injection is better at cooling than gasoline. Gasoline only cools a tiny bit, and it is NOT a great way to prevent detonation. It helps, but ultimately cars need intercoolers to cool the charge air directly before it enters, or water injection, or both.

Now here it the part that pisses me off the most. All cars have a method of richening the fuel mixture at full throttle. This prevents engine damage. Fords have been known to richen their engines excessively, some being 12.5:1 air/fuel! This yields LESS power than 13.5:1 and it WASTES fuel! It is totally against scientific logic and it makes no sense at all. Apparently these mixtures are used as a safety margin in case the injectors get dirty, etc etc. The oxygen sensor is normally disabled around 75% or 80% of full throttle. That is when your engine goes into a RICH fuel mode called OPEN LOOP, meaning NO oxygen sensor in the loop anymore. During this time a vehicle WASTES fuel because the fuel mixture is excessively rich. If you could supplement water into the engine at this time, you could use the water to cool the engine, and you would NOT NEED TO WASTE GASOLINE. Yes, we have been purposefully wasting our environment and pouring unburnt fuel through our engines just to cool them ever so slightly. It is absurd to say the least!!!

It gets really boring arguing with people who insist on using tons of gasoline on a turbocharged engine to cool an engine to prevent engine damage. Too much gasoline does cool the engine slightly, but there is a sharp decline in power. If you simply lower boost levels, or reduce ignition timing, you get the same power output with a proper fuel mixture. 

No engine should ever be running richer than 12.5:1 air fuel, because the engine becomes very sluggish below this ratio. Too much gasoline just washes the lubrication off the cylinder walls and ruins the engine oil in 1/4 the time it normally takes. Water or water/alcohol injection is the only proper method of cooling an engine.

Here is my computer controlled vehicle using a DO-IT-YOURSELF computer that I soldered together from a kit. You can control it with a lap top. This is a Toyota Tercel. I installed a Mazda turbocharger on it.

Let us get it straight. Water is the answer to fuel problems!

(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/4.jpg)
(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/engine_finished.jpg)
(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/fuel_rail_half.jpg)
(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/fuel_rail_bare.jpg)














Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 09, 2008, 05:18:40 PM
I have an Exhaust Gas temperature gauge on my car, and a wide band air/fuel ratio monitor. So I can compare both, live, on the fly while I drive my car. I also built a computer system that can control my air fuel mixture.

Here is what happens:

At 13.5:1 air/fuel mixture with normal gasoline, you get maximum power.
At 12.5:1 air/fuel mixture power trails off a little bit since there is not enough oxygen available and the fuel does not burn completely, which means there is a small cooling of the charge (less expansion during the power stroke)
At 11:1 the car runs like a slug. You get very sluggish performance and EGT (exhaust gas temperature) goes down up to 300 degrees to about 1150 degrees F instead of (1350-1450)

Approaching 14.7:1 you get a more complete burn, and better fuel economy. This is the ratio that is REQUIRED for catalytic converters to function, otherwise there is either too much heat, or too much raw unburned fuel going into the catalytic converter and it can't possibly function at peak efficiency and you'll fail an emissions test. The oil companies and car companies are OBVIOUSLY trying to make as much money as possible, because gasoline is inherently flawed. Without a hydrogen catalyst (Water Fuel) you cannot run an engine in a lean burn mode (above 18:1) air/fuel.

My vehicle is emissions exempt, due to the local laws. So I can run my car LEANER than 14.7:1 to get better fuel economy. Beyond 14.7:1 air/fuel, you are putting more air into your motor than the fuel can possibly use. Believe it or not, gasoline will not burn LEAN. The engine design, and the fuel prohibits a lean burn condition.

At 16.5:1 air/fuel mixture, I can turn in maximum fuel economy while the flame speed is still good enough in the engine to make decent power, and smooth operation. Since there is an abundance of air (oxygen) in the cylinder - more than is necessary - I am getting a very complete burn out of the fuel. Between 14.7:1 and 16.5:1 there is such a small difference in EGT that is not noticeable.

At 18:1 air/fuel the engine starts cutting off. Gasoline vapor burns too slowly at this ratio. There is not enough gasoline vapor in the cylinder, and yet there is an abundance of air. The resulting combustion is too slow to do any work, since the piston speed is nearly the same speed as the combustion, the combustion doesn't really do anything. The fuel burns, but the power declines sharply, making the engine very rough running and very low on power. Above 18.5:1 or so, my vehicle will not drive, it starts bucking as the fuel mixture is on the threshhold and will not run.

During cruise, part throttle, 16.5:1 air/fuel, I get 1000F EGT (this is very good for fuel economy).
During WOT (wide open throttle) at 13:1 air/fuel I have 1300-1450 F at the exhaust.

The reason you use more gasoline during full throttle is due to the increased pressures. Light fuel mixtures are more difficult to control, since there is more oxygen available, the fuel mixtures have a tendency to combust before the spark plug fires (detonation/pinging). If this happens at full throttle, it can damage your head gasket or destroy your pistons (I've done it many times). So what you do is richen the fuel mixture. The exhaust temperature goes down, and there is less possibility of detonation. However, gasoline is NOT GOOD at cooling an engine. Gasoline does not have a very high Latent Heat of Vaporization energy rating. On the other hand, water does. If you spray a mist of water into your engine, then you can cool the engine WITHOUT directly effecting the fuel mixture, hence you can run whatever air/fuel mixture you want without worrying about detonation (engine damage). This is why in WWII they started using water injection on air planes since the water can prevent pinging, all while using a standard fuel mixture (14.7:1).

Water injection is better at cooling than gasoline. Gasoline only cools a tiny bit, and it is NOT a great way to prevent detonation. It helps, but ultimately cars need intercoolers to cool the charge air directly before it enters, or water injection, or both.

Now here it the part that pisses me off the most. All cars have a method of richening the fuel mixture at full throttle. This prevents engine damage. Fords have been known to richen their engines excessively, some being 12.5:1 air/fuel! This yields LESS power than 13.5:1 and it WASTES fuel! It is totally against scientific logic and it makes no sense at all. Apparently these mixtures are used as a safety margin in case the injectors get dirty, etc etc. The oxygen sensor is normally disabled around 75% or 80% of full throttle. That is when your engine goes into a RICH fuel mode called OPEN LOOP, meaning NO oxygen sensor in the loop anymore. During this time a vehicle WASTES fuel because the fuel mixture is excessively rich. If you could supplement water into the engine at this time, you could use the water to cool the engine, and you would NOT NEED TO WASTE GASOLINE. Yes, we have been purposefully wasting our environment and pouring unburnt fuel through our engines just to cool them ever so slightly. It is absurd to say the least!!!

It gets really boring arguing with people who insist on using tons of gasoline on a turbocharged engine to cool an engine to prevent engine damage. Too much gasoline does cool the engine slightly, but there is a sharp decline in power. If you simply lower boost levels, or reduce ignition timing, you get the same power output with a proper fuel mixture. 

No engine should ever be running richer than 12.5:1 air fuel, because the engine becomes very sluggish below this ratio. Too much gasoline just washes the lubrication off the cylinder walls and ruins the engine oil in 1/4 the time it normally takes. Water or water/alcohol injection is the only proper method of cooling an engine.

Here is my computer controlled vehicle using a DO-IT-YOURSELF computer that I soldered together from a kit. You can control it with a lap top. This is a Toyota Tercel. I installed a Mazda turbocharger on it.

Let us get it straight. Water is the answer to fuel problems!

(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/4.jpg)
(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/engine_finished.jpg)
(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/fuel_rail_half.jpg)
(http://www.h2ofuelkits.com/tercel/images/fuel_rail_bare.jpg)



Hi supermuble,

WOW!  This is great data!  I am an instrumentation 'freak' myself.  I love hard data.  I (we) all appreciate these figures and I will probably use these as benchmarks for refining the integrating  of the water spark plug (plasma) circuit in my Bug.

Have you generated data for normally aspirated, non-turbo engines ? This type of data would be relevant to my Bug (even though air cooled engines generally perform poorly - for thermal reasons).

Thanks again.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on November 09, 2008, 05:43:52 PM
     Hydrocarbons.  Hydrooxygen.  What's the difference.  A hydrogen bond is a hydrogen bond is a hydrogen bond.  Why does NASA get excited when it finds water on a planet.  Because they KNOW and have stated that water is a fuel.   Obama is talking solar and wind.  How about a world class action suit forcing the oil profiteers into implementing hydrogen storage and distribution sytems at their expense or send in the troops to make them do it.  It is criminal that the energy industry has placed the world in economic and enviromental distress.  Solar and wind are intermittent and need storage and distribution NOW.  The utility companies needed storage for peak demand electrical use since the 60's.  Dont put in a hydrogen storage facility whatever you do just throw some jet engines at the problem.  They burn exploited fossil fuels which is the onlything that these criminals seem to be able to do.  Exploitation and extortion. 

   Gotoluc

     Sorry for the rant.  You guys won't even need hydrogen to git er movin on down the road.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 05:45:18 PM
Hi supermuble,

WOW!  I second that ;).  Excellent information.

One of the pictures you posted looks like a fuel rail with injectors. Are you doing some kind of mod to it?

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 09, 2008, 06:23:04 PM
@everyone,

for those who are not following the topic at the Energetic Forum I am posting this for your information.

Question asked by me User: gotoluc

@allcanadian
I do have one question. Do you think there would be any advantages to inject the water directly in the cylinder just after the fuel explosion compared to injecting it at the intake?

Luc

Reply by User: Allcanadian

@gotoluc
LOL, I think you know the answer The water is admitted to the cylinder to convert heat energy into pressure and it is pressure which drives the engine not heat---A good example is an air engine is has no heat persay. One problem I encountered was that the water mist could flash into steam when it hit the hot valves and cylinder-----before compression, in this case the rising piston must compress air and already expanded steam and the expanded steam lowers efficiency, we want all of the water to flash into steam near TDC. So yes the perfect system would inject water mist into the cylinder just before ignition to pre-expand the water into steam and cool the engine components. Next ignition occurs and whatever water remains will instantly flash to steam and cylinder pressure will rise. It's kind of funny that this system worked great and was relatively easy to build but there was "One" problem that kept popping up, that is at very lean mixtures I would have misfires and I was looking for a better way to ignite the fuel/air mixture----and you have solved this problem for me in this very thread. From the moment I read this thread I knew you guys had solved the single biggest problem I had with my constant temperature engine and when I replicated your circuit I knew as fact you had solved this problem. I think we should look at this engine system from the proper perspective, it is a steam engine first ----which happens to produce this high pressure steam "IN" the cylinder itself at TDC near instantly. The burning fuel is nothing more that a means to an end---to produce the steam.
Regards
AC

ADDED:
Reply by me User: gotoluc

Ding! Ding! Ding!... We have a winner :D I do believe this would be the correct direction we need to take.

I've been dragging my feet on this for a while but it is clear to me now what needs to be done.

Thank you Allcanadian in helping to put the pieces together ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on November 10, 2008, 07:51:39 PM
Good job Supermuble!!

Nice data...  ;)

A question...
How did you make your laptop to be an analyzer??  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 10, 2008, 10:21:35 PM
Hi all,

I've started building a small semi-GEET reactor for the Bug.  It will be much along the test unit Luc began except I will have makeup air both from the crankcase into the top of the reactor as well as from ambient because I'm not closing the loop.  An exhaust feed from the intake manifold preheat has proven to be a very convenient source for the hot bubbler supply.

News at eleven.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 10, 2008, 10:23:40 PM
Hi my friend supermuble,

the only think I can do, is to give you my sincere Congratulations!
I also have to thank you , for your very , very useful informations.
You have really made a great job.
Thank you again my friend.

friend
Damianos


I don't know...  I like to learn
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jstadwater on November 10, 2008, 10:42:54 PM
Hey Guys,

    I fried the inverter I had hooked up to my Suburban. The VexUs circuit itself is already functional, just have to build a reliable voltage scource. SO, for this video the VexUs circuit is plugged into a wall outlet for the 115VAC. The QUAD shielded satallite/cable wire is working out very nice. Easy hookups, no shorts to ground, no RF noise on radio, it looks nice, and no interference with my OBD2 program. It was easy as pie to pop a plugwire off the distributor and unscrew the corresponding cable wire from the cable splitter to add in an external plug for video purposes. That way I did not have to undo the connection at the plug end!

This test was to verify that I was actually getting plasma at the plugs, since my discharge cap and voltage tripler are both mounted in the rear floor-board inside the Suburban. I used the farthest connection from the discharge cap to hook up the test plug. I saw no difference in spark intensity or plasma sound, (vs. on the bench) I thought maybe the cap was too far from the "event", I guess it makes it up there just fine.....as you will see in the vid.

My next test will be to use the ECM re-programmer I have and lean out the fuel mixture, one ratio step at a time, and then test it. My program will allow a max of 24 to 1 air/fuel, it will be interesting to see how far I can go with it.

During the vid, I had my boss to switch off the plasma circuit a couple times, notice how long it takes the spark to return to normal. Of course, I am only at idle speed, but I think it speaks to great abounds of the stability of the VexUs circuit, this is a V-8! The plasma created here is with 450VDC and a discharge capacitence of 2.5uF. Here's the vid link:


Plasma in the Suburban, Take 1  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D0HbSxTIEQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D0HbSxTIEQ)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: yamalaris on November 11, 2008, 02:14:03 AM
@supermumble : is that a bowlings and grippo megasquirt, I also use this system and have wondered about using its pulse width modulation mode to run a meyer type injector .
@all : great work , WATER IS FUEL !
 
Tim
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on November 11, 2008, 02:40:45 AM
I was able to run my geet engine some the last few days.
I ran it about 30mins with 60%water 35%gasoline 5%motor oil. I was very pleased with the way it ran.
I took a sample of the fuel mixture its in the jar on the left in the picture. I ran it 7 more times at 20 min entervals adding about 100ML of water after each run , then took another sample it's the center picture the water seem to be homaginizing with the oil and doesn't seperate. It has produced a pudding like substance that feels more wet than oily. the engine runs fine on this mixture. I kept adding more water and ran it a until it didn't want to run and took another sample. Its some strange looking stuff  that the mixture is becoming. I was adding HHO to the system.
Today I emptied the tank and did a timed test run under normal opperation Plain gasoline , gasoline with HHO and gasoline HHO with Plasma spark.There wasn't much difference. I'm not sure the plasma circuit is working on this engine.
I filled the Geet tank with 75%water 25%Gasoline ran with HHO on. It would hardly run.I added more gasoline to the mix. I forgot and left the HHO on and had a small explosion that blew the air filter cover off that I've sealed. It turned out to be a nice safety, the flame never even got to the bubbler. Anyway I started the engine again it runs fine, but decided to leave the futher testing till tomarrow.
  Thanks everyone for all the hard work, you guys are really moving foward on this at a fast pace.
Keep up the good . Maybe I can help a little with some testing on this engine.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on November 11, 2008, 02:42:28 AM
these are pics of the samples
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 11, 2008, 02:45:43 AM
Hi all,

I've started building a small semi-GEET reactor for the Bug.  It will be much along the test unit Luc began except I will have makeup air both from the crankcase into the top of the reactor as well as from ambient because I'm not closing the loop.  An exhaust feed from the intake manifold preheat has proven to be a very convenient source for the hot bubbler supply.

News at eleven.  Peace,

Greg

Sound interesting Greg ;)... I'm sure you'll get her done before mine ;D

Thanks for letting us know.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 11, 2008, 03:56:22 AM
Hey Guys,

    I fried the inverter I had hooked up to my Suburban. The VexUs circuit itself is already functional, just have to build a reliable voltage scource. SO, for this video the VexUs circuit is plugged into a wall outlet for the 115VAC. The QUAD shielded satallite/cable wire is working out very nice. Easy hookups, no shorts to ground, no RF noise on radio, it looks nice, and no interference with my OBD2 program. It was easy as pie to pop a plugwire off the distributor and unscrew the corresponding cable wire from the cable splitter to add in an external plug for video purposes. That way I did not have to undo the connection at the plug end!

This test was to verify that I was actually getting plasma at the plugs, since my discharge cap and voltage tripler are both mounted in the rear floor-board inside the Suburban. I used the farthest connection from the discharge cap to hook up the test plug. I saw no difference in spark intensity or plasma sound, (vs. on the bench) I thought maybe the cap was too far from the "event", I guess it makes it up there just fine.....as you will see in the vid.

My next test will be to use the ECM re-programmer I have and lean out the fuel mixture, one ratio step at a time, and then test it. My program will allow a max of 24 to 1 air/fuel, it will be interesting to see how far I can go with it.

During the vid, I had my boss to switch off the plasma circuit a couple times, notice how long it takes the spark to return to normal. Of course, I am only at idle speed, but I think it speaks to great abounds of the stability of the VexUs circuit, this is a V-8! The plasma created here is with 450VDC and a discharge capacitence of 2.5uF. Here's the vid link:


Plasma in the Suburban, Take 1  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D0HbSxTIEQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D0HbSxTIEQ)


Great idea jstadwater to use quad shielded satallite/cable wire to keep RF noise down. Looks like it does the job ;)

Thanks for all the great work and sharing you have done to date.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 11, 2008, 04:02:44 AM
I was able to run my geet engine some the last few days.
I ran it about 30mins with 60%water 35%gasoline 5%motor oil. I was very pleased with the way it ran.
I took a sample of the fuel mixture its in the jar on the left in the picture. I ran it 7 more times at 20 min entervals adding about 100ML of water after each run , then took another sample it's the center picture the water seem to be homaginizing with the oil and doesn't seperate. It has produced a pudding like substance that feels more wet than oily. the engine runs fine on this mixture. I kept adding more water and ran it a until it didn't want to run and took another sample. Its some strange looking stuff  that the mixture is becoming. I was adding HHO to the system.
Today I emptied the tank and did a timed test run under normal opperation Plain gasoline , gasoline with HHO and gasoline HHO with Plasma spark.There wasn't much difference. I'm not sure the plasma circuit is working on this engine.
I filled the Geet tank with 75%water 25%Gasoline ran with HHO on. It would hardly run.I added more gasoline to the mix. I forgot and left the HHO on and had a small explosion that blew the air filter cover off that I've sealed. It turned out to be a nice safety, the flame never even got to the bubbler. Anyway I started the engine again it runs fine, but decided to leave the futher testing till tomarrow.
  Thanks everyone for all the hard work, you guys are really moving foward on this at a fast pace.
Keep up the good . Maybe I can help a little with some testing on this engine.

Thanks gourdman for sharing your tests on your GEET engine using the plasma spark.

With all your tests, would you say that there is no benefit using the plasma spark on a GEET system to increase % of water capabilities?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on November 11, 2008, 04:05:10 AM
I was able to run my geet engine some the last few days.
I ran it about 30mins with 60%water 35%gasoline 5%motor oil. I was very pleased with the way it ran.
I took a sample of the fuel mixture its in the jar on the left in the picture. I ran it 7 more times at 20 min entervals adding about 100ML of water after each run , then took another sample it's the center picture the water seem to be homaginizing with the oil and doesn't seperate. It has produced a pudding like substance that feels more wet than oily. the engine runs fine on this mixture. I kept adding more water and ran it a until it didn't want to run and took another sample. Its some strange looking stuff  that the mixture is becoming. I was adding HHO to the system.
Today I emptied the tank and did a timed test run under normal opperation Plain gasoline , gasoline with HHO and gasoline HHO with Plasma spark.There wasn't much difference. I'm not sure the plasma circuit is working on this engine.
I filled the Geet tank with 75%water 25%Gasoline ran with HHO on. It would hardly run.I added more gasoline to the mix. I forgot and left the HHO on and had a small explosion that blew the air filter cover off that I've sealed. It turned out to be a nice safety, the flame never even got to the bubbler. Anyway I started the engine again it runs fine, but decided to leave the futher testing till tomarrow.
  Thanks everyone for all the hard work, you guys are really moving foward on this at a fast pace.
Keep up the good . Maybe I can help a little with some testing on this engine.



Excellent work gourdman, did you have to adjust the timing? All small engine seems to have fix timing at around 20deg BTDC which make it difficult to start.  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on November 11, 2008, 01:23:22 PM
hey everyone
  Yesterday's post was a quick one I was very tired. We spent the weekend at a Volkswagen show. I was trying to demonstrate this engine to spark some intrest in what we are doing.I had only run this engine once for a short time before the show, so I was still putting everythin together while talking to people about it.My thinking is that if I can get this thing to burn water using an old engine that I can't adjust the timing on. Not using as much HHO as could possibly be generated and the old nexus plasma spark, then using using good stuff should be easy   lol   I haven't run enough test to give any good information yet. I'm not even sure the plasma spark was working yesterday and I was never able to get it hooked up at the show I'm still plugging it in to the wall plug and didn't have time at the show to chase down an inverter.About 100 people gave me there Email wanting more info on all this so I'm spending this morning composing an letter to try and send them in the right direction.
  I hope to spend most of the day testing and will post the results this evening. Sooner If I happen to get any remarkable results.
  Thanks guys for all your hard work you are moving along with this at a remarkable rate.I've been following this form almost the start you guys are the best  keep up the great work.

     Gourdman, :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on November 11, 2008, 08:50:38 PM
 I was able to get the plasma spark working today . When running the engine under normal operation
 there seemed to be a slight increase in power when i turn the Plasma spark on. When I got the Geet system running really well on about 75% water 25% Gasoline 5%oil. I turned the plasma spark on and it bogged down. I am convinced that the plasma spark is making the fuel combust so fast that I need to retard the timing.
  Which is what I have been told many times. It seems to me it would be easier to build some sort of bracket to adjust the magneto, instead of some of the other Ideas I've heard.
   I've also been working on my wife's VW bus. Its running pretty good now and I have the componets to build Greg's Vexus circuit and most of the stuff for the inverter. Unfortunately electronics is not one of my strong points, but I,m sure I'll be able to get it together with you guys help.
  I have an early 1970s 140hp 4 cylinder engine on an old boat of mine that I think I'll start building a Geet system for. Thanks to Ash for the extra geet info he sent me, it should help me get it working with out to many problems
  I think it will be more suited to this.
I believe using this plasma spark with a geet system is the way to go. I still haven't run this small engine enough to know what it is capebale of, but it seem to like the water.I'll keep testing it to see just how mush water i can run through it. and I'll let you know.
I'm also trying to make a video
  Thanks again to everyone for the help and advice.
       Gourdman :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wizkycho on November 11, 2008, 09:29:50 PM
Hi all, wonderfull progress !

Seems to me that in order to "plasmalise" bigger volume of dispersed water sparkplug should need some modification
Jacob's Ladder comes to mind.

http://www.educypedia.be/electronics/electricityjacobsladder.htm

wouldn't that cause an modification of motor - hole in piston (not too deep) should be machined if using longer ladder

I'm thinking of ladder type with One Input plasma wire in a middle surrounded with four or more ground wires.

The good thing is plasma allso goes where less resistance is and that is where unburned water droplets are.

Will Ladder be fast enough...?


Wiz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: CowboyRX on November 11, 2008, 09:43:34 PM
I was unable to run a single cylinder 4 stroke Honda 5.5HP mower engine using gasoline/plasma spark. The waste spark may have something to do with it.
The engines with waste spark have no problem running on 100% HHO/regular spark.

Gourdman,
Did you inject HHO into the GEET reactor, vaporizer or intake manifold?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 12, 2008, 12:45:20 AM
Hi All,

An update on using different fuels ( including 40% water /ethanol mix ) over on my fuel vapourizer thread:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6007.msg137413#msg137413

Cheers

PS77
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 12, 2008, 01:29:02 AM
I was able to get the plasma spark working today . When running the engine under normal operation
 there seemed to be a slight increase in power when i turn the Plasma spark on. When I got the Geet system running really well on about 75% water 25% Gasoline 5%oil. I turned the plasma spark on and it bogged down. I am convinced that the plasma spark is making the fuel combust so fast that I need to retard the timing.
  Which is what I have been told many times. It seems to me it would be easier to build some sort of bracket to adjust the magneto, instead of some of the other Ideas I've heard.
 
Thanks again to everyone for the help and advice.
       Gourdman :)

Thanks Gourdman for the update. I sure hope you are right about advancing the timing since this will be Excellent news.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on November 12, 2008, 03:33:34 AM
Hey guys.
 Cowboy I have been injecting the HHO into the air intake but I think It maybe better to put it into the Geet fuel bubbler. After I run the engine awhile I have to shut the fresh air intake almost all the way off and pull most of the air through the reactor to keep it running good. The pulley I rigged up for the alternator slung the key out so I've been redoing that today.Hope to have it running again tomarrow.
   I should inform the group that is trying to emulsifier Browns gas that this engine is mixing the fuel so well it takes a long time to separate.The water turns to pudding and traps alto of air. I'm sure it will trap some HHO if I start injecting it before the geet tank.

  At Luc : I'm almost sure the plasma spark is causing the engine to stall because it's making the fuel burn faster. It's the only thing that makes sense. Because the engine seems to runs better in normal operation with the plasma spark.
 I left the carburetor on the engine and just sealed the air breather and put a shut off valve on the fuel tank so I can compare normal running to the Geet system easy.It makes getting it started easier too.
 Just wish I could retard the timing as easy.
   
 Thanks all    Gourdman  :)
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 12, 2008, 05:26:49 AM
At Luc : I'm almost sure the plasma spark is causing the engine to stall because it's making the fuel burn faster. It's the only thing that makes sense. Because the engine seems to runs better in normal operation with the plasma spark.
 I left the carburetor on the engine and just sealed the air breather and put a shut off valve on the fuel tank so I can compare normal running to the Geet system easy.It makes getting it started easier too.
 Just wish I could retard the timing as easy.
   
 Thanks all    Gourdman  :)

Hi Gourdman, you probably can retard the timing. Your engine timing is most lightly fixed by a flywheel magneto coil ignition system. What you can do is remove your flywheel bolt and remove the key that locks the wheel at that timing position and retard the flywheel position and tighten the bolt good and it should stay fixed. Maybe before you do this set the piston to TDC and make a mark on the flywheel and engine so you have a reference point in case you need to move it in different positions.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on November 12, 2008, 06:57:22 AM
@All,

I was reviewing  Ash's video production of everyone's progress and i caught something Stan Meyer say's, ( go to 12:10 sec. on the video) , he says you replace the spark plug with a "water fuel cell injector" Simply feed processed water to the injector ?? ......i believe that there is two reasons Stan meyers needed to use resonance frequency in his water fuel cell, #1- to produce an efficient supply of hydroxy ......#2- using resonance frequency's no catalyst is needed in the water , I think he may have been injecting hydroxy enriched water .... Super charged  with lots of hydroxy trapped in the water...   A simple float activated fill valve could refill the water fuel cell as the water is used.....Stan did have a metal holding tank on his dune buggy.....??

For about 2 months I've been toying with the idea of using the water pumped straight from a water fuel cell to power a small engine, now after hearing Stan say it  i believe this may work.......

Please everyone let me know your thoughts....

Aloha,

Jared


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9071695126208320206&hl=en
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: CowboyRX on November 12, 2008, 11:07:40 AM
@All,

I was reviewing  Ash's video production of everyone's progress and i caught something Stan Meyer say's, ( go to 12:10 sec. on the video) , he says you replace the spark plug with a "water fuel cell injector" Simply feed processed water to the injector ?? ......i believe that there is two reasons Stan meyers needed to use resonance frequency in his water fuel cell, #1- to produce an efficient supply of hydroxy ......#2- using resonance frequency's no catalyst is needed in the water , I think he may have been injecting hydroxy enriched water .... Super charged  with lots of hydroxy trapped in the water...   A simple float activated fill valve could refill the water fuel cell as the water is used.....Stan did have a metal holding tank on his dune buggy.....??

For about 2 months I've been toying with the idea of using the water pumped straight from a water fuel cell to power a small engine, now after hearing Stan say it  i believe this may work.......

Please everyone let me know your thoughts....

Aloha,

Jared


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YYNkBKJPK4I
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on November 14, 2008, 01:44:47 AM
none of this (plasma spark) is new... not a fraction of it

they alredy use in jet engine

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=clKALKFZlF8
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on November 14, 2008, 06:07:08 AM
Bill's Nexus circuit in vehicle_2 update

Well I finally received my HV diodes was able to rewire the circuit. I installed the custom spark plug wires I made and ran the dipole wires directly to the distributor cap. So far the system works great. I took it on a 20 mile test drive (10 miles without plasma and 10 miles with) and it did not miss a beat. Long term testing will tell the true story. I will update everyone in a few days or sooner if something comes up.

Mean while, here is a new video link. Just more of the same, but you can see the new wiring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pGMOZn42CU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pGMOZn42CU)


Until the next update,

Peace,
LapperL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on November 14, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
none of this (plasma spark) is new... not a fraction of it

they alredy use in jet engine

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=clKALKFZlF8

    What is new is the fuel.  What do turbines work off of .   Pressure.  Why should we confine ourselves to the belief that the only way to create steam is to use infrared wavelengths  to excite the  water molecular lattice into disassociation.  Just create a plasma field that is so electrically polarized it rips the polarized water molecule bonds apart resulting in steam.  Cold steam but highpressure steam nevertheless.  Further exposure to the plasma electrostatic charge field results in some hydrogen production but this is not the main mechanism here employed to get the push on the piston or turbine vane.
Title: Lynnferd Grant HHO Breakthrough
Post by: goldenequity on November 14, 2008, 03:40:43 PM
Hi everyone...
Not to distract.... but wanted to alert all to what appears to be a breakthrough on HHO production.
Very interesting audio interview with Lynnferd Grant who has now produced gas not just AT the electrodes..
but BETWEEN them.... a la Stanley Meyers.... no resonance, no tubes..... a paper clip.... and a spoon!  :o

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6070.new#new
Title: Re: Lynnferd Grant HHO Breakthrough
Post by: gotoluc on November 14, 2008, 10:19:12 PM
Hi everyone...
Not to distract.... but wanted to alert all to what appears to be a breakthrough on HHO production.
Very interesting audio interview with Lynnferd Grant who has now produced gas not just AT the electrodes..
but BETWEEN them.... a la Stanley Meyers.... no resonance, no tubes..... a paper clip.... and a spoon!  :o

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6070.new#new

Thank you goldenequity for bringing this to our attention and starting a topic. I listen to Lynnferd Grant interview and really like his understanding. I will replicate as soon as I return from my Florida trip.

I encourage everyone who can experiment with this as I think it's going to tie together with what we are doing here.

Thanks for sharing GE ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 14, 2008, 11:53:35 PM
Hi everyone,

here is a video that was poster in the Fuel Vapor System topic and I though some of you may want to see it.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJTAaslsj6Q

Ultrasonic diesel vapors on a GEET but with no reactor rod in.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magneto_DC on November 17, 2008, 10:46:38 AM
Thank you, supermuble !!

Two question blocks:
Did you all your measuring and testing do with the origin (high voltage) spark and spark plug? No enhanced high current (plasma) spark?


How to manipulate the AFR in the engine? You use a none-standard engine controller which is programmable thru your software installed on Laptop?
Can I (or anybody else) manipulate the (my) origin Opel/Vauxhall controller? What / who can manipulate the AFR of a origin engine controller?


Thanks again
magneto_DC

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 17, 2008, 08:22:49 PM
Hello everybody!!

Zis here....

Just finished the video recordings of my plasma construction.

I am using Greg's circuit with a small change. (diode 3)
I have redrew the circuit on my paper. Have a look.:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/3034380713_4c8d50d67e_b.jpg)

( the greek words underneath mean: "The coil has a negative spark from factory" and "spark-plug is non resistor" )

I am having power from the wall outlet. (230VAC)
Bridge is: 25A / 600V
Diodes are: 1N5408 (1000V / 3A)
Bulb is: 100W - 230V - 33Ω (Phillips)
C1 is: 470μF / 450V
C2 is: 40μF + (the black capacitor taken from a camera flash) / 400V   C2 sum is about 80μF - 100μF
Sparkplug is: NGK C7HSA
Coil is: From a motorbike 6volt. I am giving to it 12V.
DC output from the Bridge is 316volts

So let me show you a video. Sorry for my english.

Video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqMxSDsNPzQ


Thanks,
Zissis
Greece


P.S.: Diode 3 (D3) is very important.!! Without the diode 3 there was a closed circuit of the 316 VDC, inside the coil. This resulted the coil to get very hot, and sparks were rare. After i put the diode on the HV side, there was an dramatic change on the stability of spark, and the plasma became way Bigger!!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 17, 2008, 08:49:11 PM

I have also made a video on my engine. It is a 4-stroke 80cc engine. It is not working but rortating!! I tried the plasma with no carburator.! Just on the Top Dead Center, and a bit after. Then giving plasma.

Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AdyO79ZBMg&feature=channel

The second video is the same, but spark-plug is wet..!!

Notice the engine position after the spark, especially on the wet plug (2nd video)
I am showing with my finger ( video pos: 0:33 - 0:41)
The rotation of the engine without water (only plasma) was 180o. The rotation of the engine with water was 260o.

2nd Video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmzP79kSQLw&feature=related


Thanks a lot all of you!!
Zissis

P.S.: Sorry for speaking greek in my videos....
        No gasoline inside the engine (carb is removed)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 17, 2008, 10:57:04 PM
I have also made a video on my engine. It is a 4-stroke 80cc engine. It is not working but rortating!! I tried the plasma with no carburator.! Just on the Top Dead Center, and a bit after. Then giving plasma.

Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AdyO79ZBMg&feature=channel

The second video is the same, but spark-plug is wet..!!

Notice the engine position after the spark, especially on the wet plug (2nd video)
I am showing with my finger ( video pos: 0:33 - 0:41)
The rotation of the engine without water (only plasma) was 180o. The rotation of the engine with water was 260o.

2nd Video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmzP79kSQLw&feature=related


Thanks a lot all of you!!
Zissis

P.S.: Sorry for speaking greek in my videos....
        No gasoline inside the engine (carb is removed)


Hi, my friend Zissis,

believe me, you really made a great job.
I give you , my congratulations.
I wish the best for you.
Keep on working... on this thema.
You are really a very clever boy, because you know how to use your senses.
You gave a very good solusion with this (D3) diode.
I tasted, to put it (the diode), and it worked!
This D3 diode works also and with the opposite direction!
Thank you again my friend.
I am also here...

Thank you again!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on November 18, 2008, 12:54:09 AM
AGREED!
Nice work Zissis.... nice to have friends in Greece!
and thank you for making an English version video.... I appreciate your efforts!
Randy
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 18, 2008, 02:02:43 AM
finished oscillator testing
Hi all,

Whew! I've finished the oscillator design and testing as far as I'm going to take it. I need (we all need) to know the potential for the water spark plug technology ... not what's a better inverter design. But since I fathered the Vexus Circuit and it so handily blows up inverters I thought I'd try to at least provide an alternative power supply for it so the REAL testing can resume. The VexUs Circuit has never had stability problems so it seems worth the effort to solve the power issues.

Below is a picture of the oscillator/inverter. The on-board transformer is rated at 24VA (Watts in this case). The circuit is the exact circuit "High Powered Inverter" I posted earlier. It is a self oscillator. The resistor values are as shown in the picture except for the Caps ... they are 10,000 uF and the thing oscillates at 88 Hz. You can see two cooling fans ... one for the transistors and one for the transformer. At 9:00 is a full wave voltage doubler (actually 2 in parallel for capacity). At 1:30 is a 1,000 uF cap for the 12VDC power in (power supply stuff). At 3:00 is the CDI (dump) Cap @ 5 uF. To its right is the storage cap at 450 uF. Just below that is the ceramic current limiter (resistor) R1 at 510 Ohms.

I'll be posting some vids shortly of all this installed in the Bug, another look at the new HV spark under pressure and the beginnings of my 'headlong' into a semi-geet water/fuel vaporizer for the Bug ... then down to business.

Aside ... the voltage multiplier output starts at 445VDC, is at 325 VDC at 2,400 equiv engine RPM and drops somewhat linearly until about 6,000 RPM and then crashes (minimal output). I'm going to hammer on these voltage multipliers to try and understand how to make them support the HV over a broader operational frequency range.

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/24va.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 18, 2008, 02:23:49 AM
Hello everybody!!

Zis here....

Just finished the video recordings of my plasma construction.

I am using Greg's circuit with a small change. (diode 3)
I have redrew the circuit on my paper. Have a look.:

...

Thanks,
Zissis
Greece


P.S.: Diode 3 (D3) is very important.!! Without the diode 3 there was a closed circuit of the 316 VDC, inside the coil. This resulted the coil to get very hot, and sparks were rare. After i put the diode on the HV side, there was an dramatic change on the stability of spark, and the plasma became way Bigger!!!!

Hi Zis,

Greg here.  Yes you are very observant !  Diode 3 is very important in a single cylinder or magneto ignition system.  The 'Tero' circuit has that diode 3 also.  But when you have a distributor there is not a problem because the coil output gets disconnected by the distributor and the voltage only flows for a very short time ... and the resistance in the coil there is greater than 15,000 Ohm ... so no problem.  But I use D3 on the bench but not in the Car.

Great job on the videos ... you made the engine turn on water ! ! !

Thanks Zis.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 18, 2008, 04:44:08 AM
I have also made a video on my engine. It is a 4-stroke 80cc engine. It is not working but rortating!! I tried the plasma with no carburator.! Just on the Top Dead Center, and a bit after. Then giving plasma.

Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AdyO79ZBMg&feature=channel

The second video is the same, but spark-plug is wet..!!

Notice the engine position after the spark, especially on the wet plug (2nd video)
I am showing with my finger ( video pos: 0:33 - 0:41)
The rotation of the engine without water (only plasma) was 180o. The rotation of the engine with water was 260o.

2nd Video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmzP79kSQLw&feature=related


Thanks a lot all of you!!
Zissis

P.S.: Sorry for speaking greek in my videos....
        No gasoline inside the engine (carb is removed)

Hello Zissis,

I just looked at your videos now. I had to go and find a wireless internet hot spot to see it since at this time I am away from home and no high speed internet..

Very Very Good Job ;)  since don't know of anyone that has been able to make an engine turn that much with water only.

Is this correct?  this was water only?

Thank you for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 18, 2008, 06:34:53 AM
Hello Zissis,

I just looked at your videos now. I had to go and find a wireless internet hot spot to see it since at this time I am away from home and no high speed internet..

Very Very Good Job ;)  since don't know of anyone that has been able to make an engine turn that much with water only.

Is this correct?  this was water only?

Thank you for sharing

Luc

Yes Luc.... Just water.

The engine is not working for years. (since i found her) Carburetor is out, so ANY fuel inside the cylinder must had been exhausted. Otherwise you see the difference between water, and no water.... about 90o more....

Everything must be shared!!!!

Best regards,

Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 18, 2008, 06:48:27 AM
Hi Zis,

Greg here.  Yes you are very observant !  Diode 3 is very important in a single cylinder or magneto ignition system.  The 'Tero' circuit has that diode 3 also.  But when you have a distributor there is not a problem because the coil output gets disconnected by the distributor and the voltage only flows for a very short time ... and the resistance in the coil there is greater than 15,000 Ohm ... so no problem.  But I use D3 on the bench but not in the Car.

Great job on the videos ... you made the engine turn on water ! ! !

Thanks Zis.  Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg..

Thanks for the comments. I will try to construct an electronic ignition circuit, and test it. Just like member Damianos did.! He advises to use a TIP 122 transistor, a small coil, and a diode.

I wish I had a working engine, with a starter motor, and try on the circuit....

Anyway thanks for your input.!

Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 18, 2008, 06:52:19 AM
@ Randy and Damianos,

Thanks very very much for your comments.
I appreciate it a lot.!!

@everyone

The one who has to say "thank you" is me, to everyone here. You have put me in this. So I have to say Thank you ALL guys!!


Thanks again,
Zissis,
Greece

Title: 58 PAGES OF PLASMA SPARK AND NO WATER TRIALS YET?
Post by: scalar wave on November 18, 2008, 07:40:26 AM
As I look over what's been accomplised so far, I see 58 pages of Plasma spark design and discussion and water spray on exposed spark plugs, cars running on the plasma only, down the road, in the garage, .......etc. (of course not on water)

No one has had the courage to put water in the carb????? What's wrong with a little spray?

The "skyhero" originator claims to have run his engine on water, but it ran poorly.......At least he tried.

Take a look at the Byron New Energy website (water hose pouring down a running engine and it keeps going)
 http://www.byronnewenergy.com/wiki/index.php?title=A_few_experiments_to_try_-_16_nov_2005#Is_water_compressible.3F

From their website: "Is water compressible?
An amazing experiment (which you may be hesitant to try on your own expensive car) and which we tried on the BNE Subaru, is :

Run the engine at fast idle (approx 2000/3000 revs) and POUR PURE WATER FROM A GARDEN HOSE INTO THE AIR INTAKE as the motor was running.

FROM THEIR TEST: "We did this with a garden hose and….

THE MOTOR KEEPS RUNNING quite happily!!

WOW!

There is no hydraulic lock, ie. the con rods did not snap, the motor did not seize, it appeared as though the water was compressible (because of the electrical frequency applied to it by the electrical sparking system!!!)

If you try this with a diesel apparently, you will destroy the engine… there will be hydraulic lock, the water is incompressible and the con rods will snap or bend.

Wow! "

Anyway, the plasma spark circuit is working, and 58 pages down the road, under the title "URGENT! WATER AS FUEL...." and with so many successes, no one can put a drop of water down the carb, or water vaporizer output to the carby/manifold, (or a little steam -- or water atomizer) 

When I made a hydrogen cell, I shoved the outlet right into the manifold or carb, did't get a whole lot out of it, but I tried it.

How about a little SALT water spray (actually I saw it done and it did seemed to put out much more power).  All these videos and no one can put a little NACL into the water?

Whats up???  Why isn't anyone taking the logical next step?

Good work, but what's up?

Mike



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 18, 2008, 03:54:24 PM
Hello Mike..

Thanks for asking these questions.

As you can see in a video uploaded by me, (5 posts ago) I am trying to turn a 4-stroke motorbike engine with a wet plug. No fuel. I have not got a working engine on my own yet, but at least I tried....

(From the video engine, It doesn't work because of a fault in the factory ignition circuit. All ignition electronics were dead.)

About salt water, I am sorry not done it yet, but I plan to test it.!

Some have installed the plasma circuit on their cars, but no one put only water in the engine and try it. Just to show if it is working or not. I don't know why. I agree to you here!!

Without any misunderstanding, why don't you take the logical next step yourself, and stay criticizing the others.??

Anyway, thanks again for your input
Best regards

Zissis!!
Title: Re: 58 PAGES OF PLASMA SPARK AND NO WATER TRIALS YET?
Post by: gotoluc on November 18, 2008, 04:53:39 PM

When I made a hydrogen cell, I shoved the outlet right into the manifold or carb, did't get a whole lot out of it, but I tried it.

How about a little SALT water spray (actually I saw it done and it did seemed to put out much more power).  All these videos and no one can put a little NACL into the water?

Whats up???  Why isn't anyone taking the logical next step?

Good work, but what's up?

Mike



Hi Mike,

thanks for your post.

From what you have shared I see you are ready, willing and have done this step. I'm sure everyone here would love to see a video demonstration of your experiment.

Very much looking forward to a video demo.

Thanks for sharing

Luc



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 18, 2008, 09:35:24 PM
Hi Folks,

First let me say that I appreciate each and every one who is actively working on this great system.  It is really good to see so many folks working together to achieve this task.

I have been an automotive mechanic for many years and you men have surpassed anything I ever dreamed.

As for adding water while an engine is running, I have trouble with putting a water hose in the intake and letting the water run with very much volume.  Before unleaded fuel came on the market, the engines used to get carboned up and start making a noise when the carbon built enough in the firing chamber for the piston to come in contact with it.  We would trickle water down the carburetor with the engine revved to about 2,000 rpm.  But we would pour it slow and it would get the carbon out.  I found that using auto transmission fluid was better, but was still careful to pour it slow.  I did one time bend a connecting rod because I let too much trans fluid in.  I have seen engines with several connecting rods bent because people drove into deep water and the ducting behind the grill scooped up too much water.  So I don't think I would stick a water hose running water into the intake of an engine.

Also, there have been several post where people have actually ran their engines with water and this thread is dedicated to a way to provide the simplest way to construct that circuit.  This is a good thing.

I appreciate the cautious approach you folks are taking with this and the plasma spark plug is just one more step in the direction of running an ice on water.  I truly believe it will happen.  People like me who are just starting to learn about electronics need for the folks who pave the way to not leave any stone unturned.

Also, about the spark plug running cool with water on it.  When water goes from liquid to boiling it gives up a tremendous amount of heat.  To prove this, put some water in a pan and heat it to a rolling boil and see how cool the bottom is.  I have won lotsa bets with people betting them I could put my hand on the bottom of a pan with boiling water in it.  It is surprising how cool it is.

All of you folks who are working this system, please continue, you are doing the world a tremendous favor and don't think you dedication and stick-to-it doesn't go unnoticed.

So from me, a nobody in Kansas, here is one big ATTABOY!!!

Sincerely,
Roger
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 18, 2008, 09:46:40 PM

You guys are better than watching serialized television episodes.

I have to say it is refreshing watching this thread develop in a spirit of cooperation camaraderie and a strong sense of purpose toward a common goal.

In reference to the 'water barrier' problem...from what I've observed so far - no water means no power to drive a piston, a mist will produce a localized reaction, and too much water will drown out the plasma spark.

I do not recall anyone immersing the business end of the spark plug in a chamber of water aerated with small bubbles - in so doing giving the plasma access to the oxygen it requires to ignite.

Maybe even use a mild soap diluted adequately to maintain the integrity of the bubbles until used.

Please disregard the above if it doesn't apply.

Just the same tho, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life on an ass kicking apparatus if I failed to mention something that would have turned out to be relevant to the free energy cause.

Regards...

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: scalar wave on November 19, 2008, 01:40:32 AM
Regarding my frustration at no water tests; as I've said in the past, I came from, and still pursue the Joe Cell approach, and Ed Gray systems -- I've applied J-cell techniques, and electrolyzer cells to GEO Metro, Ford Van, Landrover pos ground, and stationary 1-cyl systems.

I only have a few photos left in the yahoo joe cell group now (a couple):

http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/joecellfreeenergydevice/photos/view/7172?b=6&m=s&o=0

pure water after charging:


http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/joecellfreeenergydevice/photos/view/7172?b=3&m=s&o=0

You all have made great plasma designs, but I'm hesistant to jump in since S1r's questionable track record of truthfulness, and little to know results with putting water vapor, spray, salt spray, etc. in the cylinder and getting motion.

Thanks, my parts are all ready to go--all I want is some sign of success down this path.

I have the S1r coil done, ha-- why did I do that I ask myself now?

Still very good work guys

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 19, 2008, 02:46:43 AM
Regarding my frustration at no water tests; as I've said in the past, I came from, and still pursue the Joe Cell approach, and Ed Gray systems -- I've applied J-cell techniques, and electrolyzer cells to GEO Metro, Ford Van, Landrover pos ground, and stationary 1-cyl systems.

I only have a few photos left in the yahoo joe cell group now (a couple):

http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/joecellfreeenergydevice/photos/view/7172?b=6&m=s&o=0

pure water after charging:


http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/joecellfreeenergydevice/photos/view/7172?b=3&m=s&o=0

You all have made great plasma designs, but I'm hesistant to jump in since S1r's questionable track record of truthfulness, and little to know results with putting water vapor, spray, salt spray, etc. in the cylinder and getting motion.

Thanks, my parts are all ready to go--all I want is some sign of success down this path.

I have the S1r coil done, ha-- why did I do that I ask myself now?

Still very good work guys

Mike


Hi Mike,

Well, the lag is about to change.  I have just finished my power system and am happy with the fact that I can now make a 'blinding' plasma ignition spark that is stable across the full range of frequencies (firing rate).  If you have followed this thread you are aware of several technical problems on several levels.  Ash and Andrew have been testing several iterations of the water spark plug circuit.  I have been concentrating on guaranteeing a high voltage spark at high frequency ... something others have not been so concerned with, specifically, but I have seen (on the o'scope) that the basic voltage multiplier's (commonly used) output degrades with frequency unless the multiplier is designed to support a minimum power throughput.

Now that I have a stable high freq spark I will introduce hot water vapor and various emulsions both via the carburetor and the inlet air flow.

So Stay tuned.  Peace,

Greg 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 19, 2008, 05:31:41 AM
Thank you whizwheel and Cap-Z-ro for taking the time to post your positive words which helps to encourage all the hard working developing volunteers ;)

It helps to know that we are supported this way.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 19, 2008, 05:41:30 AM
Hi Mike,

Well, the lag is about to change.  I have just finished my power system and am happy with the fact that I can now make a 'blinding' plasma ignition spark that is stable across the full range of frequencies (firing rate).  If you have followed this thread you are aware of several technical problems on several levels.  Ash and Andrew have been testing several iterations of the water spark plug circuit.  I have been concentrating on guaranteeing a high voltage spark at high frequency ... something others have not been so concerned with, specifically, but I have seen (on the o'scope) that the basic voltage multiplier's (commonly used) output degrades with frequency unless the multiplier is designed to support a minimum power throughput.

Now that I have a stable high freq spark I will introduce hot water vapor and various emulsions both via the carburetor and the inlet air flow.

So Stay tuned.  Peace,

Greg 

Sounds excellent as usual Greg ;D

We can only follow your lead ;)

Thanks for all your dedication and hard work

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 19, 2008, 06:39:42 AM
Quote
I have the S1r coil done, ha-- why did I do that I ask myself now?

You know.... I was recently thinking about S1r 's coil....

Maybe S1r is right, but he doesn't show us the full way to do it.... He is just giving us an idea....

I was thinking to make again this coil, but with much much much more rotations of the cables, (lets say 300 or 400 each coil), and a better core (instead of a nail, lets say a ferrite). I will try it and post something.

Greg, go on....  ;)


Regards,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 19, 2008, 06:34:41 PM
Air Gap

Hi all,

A member from here pointed out the need for a diode at the HV output of the coil to prevent coil heating and partial coil voltage negation caused by the reverse voltage of the VexUs circuit. This make it much like the Tero circuit. This was a very good observation on Zis's part. This IS required for HV on the bench where you have the coil hooked up directly - full time. However, in a real application, the coil is never, ever connected to the circuit because of the air gap provided by the distributor. By placing an air gap at the HV output of the coil, this can be simulated on the bench. The spark is greatly enhanced. For coil packs you'll need an actual air gap or diode. I prefer the air gap because I don't want ANY resistance in this path. You need to shield the zone against RF leakage though.

Picture below:

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_5.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 20, 2008, 02:29:39 AM
Hi Luc,

There used to be fifty something pages now there are 231 from my browser.  Is there a 'posts per page' setting or something that gone nu-nu?  Maybe it's my brouser settings ....... help!

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 20, 2008, 02:42:13 AM
Hi Luc,

There used to be fifty something pages now there are 231 from my browser.  Is there a 'posts per page' setting or something that gone nu-nu?  Maybe it's my brouser settings ....... help!

Greg

LOL  ;D I see the same thing man :D

I don't know what's going on other then there are less posts per page now.

I'll wait a day or so and see if Stefan is going to correct this.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lapperll on November 20, 2008, 02:43:38 AM
Greg,
  It is not your browser because I have the same issue also.  Not sure what the problem is.

Lapper
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 20, 2008, 02:50:00 AM
pre-installation

Hi everyone,

I finished mounting the hardware and here is a pic of the mounting panel I use to hold my stuff.

On the left is the 24 Watt support oscillator. Far right is the voltage multiplier that supplies 400 VDC to 350 VDC from 0-RPM to 3,500-RPM. The numbers are slightly different than from the bench ... to be expected though. Between them is the power supply cap (may not need it). Above the oscillator is the 500 Ohm anodized aluminum power resistor (current limiter / charge resistor). To the right of that there's a terminal strip and at the top is a 3 uF HV cap. No more storage cap because the multiplier serves that purpose.

I plopped it in, plugged it in and went for a 45 mile trip on the back roads. Wound the engine out, lugged it and ran it normal ... the whole nine yards. I hooked up the scope and got the typical discharge curve I've already posted. Getting ready for a water vapor test now .......... FINALLY !!!

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/pre_install.jpg)
Title: Re PAGE NUMBERS
Post by: scalar wave on November 20, 2008, 07:21:55 AM
Very strange,

this used to be on page 58, now it's on page 231, what happened there?

A reformat?  or a loss of 173 pages?  (let's go with the reformat)

On  with the water tests!  (maybe even salt water)

Where's Joe and Peter when ya need them

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on November 20, 2008, 09:03:46 AM
yep...53 and then jump to 231 pages,

maybe this a warning sign to backup all of this data......please :P :'(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 20, 2008, 06:19:33 PM
Hi everybody.

I am using Greg's circuit, as seen in previous posts.

UPDATE!!

I have put in parallel with the 100W bulb, (measured @ 33Ω) a small ballast, from fluorescent lamps. It is 20W and i have just broken up my multimeter, so i cant measure it at now. Anyway, the result is:
 - Bigger frequency of plasma, bigger plasma.(with the ballast in parallel with the bulb)
 - Bigger frequency of plasma, smaller plasma. (without the ballast connected in parallel with the bulb)


See the video in this link. Sorry again for my poor english....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MOiLUDkOJ0

I want everyone who can try this, to try it, and tell us if it is working good or not. Thanks you!!

Greetings
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: provelless on November 21, 2008, 03:05:10 AM
After seeing djzissis video of the engine spinning over with water and plasma only and remembering Ossie doing the same experiment, it got me to wondering just how much a standard engine with gas and a normal ignition would spin.

 In both test I used a automotive coil and grounded down the side of the cylinder head, made a nice rapid fire spark. First engine was a weed eater engine 2-stoke with a very small combustion chamber. Wetting the plug with gas and screwing it into head, engine at TDC, then firing the plug I got nothing. I did this several times, nothing. Then I spun the engine by hand to build up some compression, again at TDC then fired the plug, the engine spun only 180*. I did this several more times with no better results.

Second engine was a a 5 hp Honda 4-stoke. Did all the above test plus poured some gas into the cylinder. The results were worse, at best the engine spun a quarter of a turn.

  I'm not sure if all this means anything but I'm not able to duplicate djzissis results and he's using water!  Keep up the good work guys ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 21, 2008, 05:25:56 AM
@Greg, very sleek man 8) ... excellent work as usual ;)

Thanks for your ceaseless dedication and sharing with all


@Zissis, that sounds interesting :) I can't see the video now since I have only dial-up but will see it soon.

Thanks for sharing my friend


@provelless, now that is interesting :o  I hope you can get to the bottom of this with more tests.

Thanks you also for sharing this information


Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 21, 2008, 06:42:03 PM
Hi everybody.

I am using Greg's circuit, as seen in previous posts.

UPDATE!!

I have put in parallel with the 100W bulb, (measured @ 33Ω) a small ballast, from fluorescent lamps. It is 20W and i have just broken up my multimeter, so i cant measure it at now. Anyway, the result is:
 - Bigger frequency of plasma, bigger plasma.(with the ballast in parallel with the bulb)
 - Bigger frequency of plasma, smaller plasma. (without the ballast connected in parallel with the bulb)


See the video in this link. Sorry again for my poor english....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MOiLUDkOJ0

I want everyone who can try this, to try it, and tell us if it is working good or not. Thanks you!!

Greetings
Zissis

Hi Zissis,

I have now looked at your video. This reminded me of some of my very first experiments with the spark circuit. I was able to to get a plasma spark using coils only (no capacitors). A coil will store energy giving an effect similar to a flywheel on an engine. I was not able to have a consistent spark so I dropped the idea but someone with more experience and knowledge should be able to make it work.

Thank you for sharing your findings

Luc 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 22, 2008, 01:05:25 AM
Hi Zissis,

I have now looked at your video. This reminded me of some of my very first experiments with the spark circuit. I was able to to get a plasma spark using coils only (no capacitors). A coil will store energy giving an effect similar to a flywheel on an engine. I was not able to have a consistent spark so I dropped the idea but someone with more experience and knowledge should be able to make it work.

Thank you for sharing your findings

Luc 

Yes Luc, it is true that the coil can store a very big amount of energy (comparing to a capacitor) in it's magnetic field.

Here, I have to say that my Diodes got warm!!!! Finally....!!
So we can say that there is about 3 amps of 316VDC going on the plasma effect!!

Diodes are 6x 1N5408 in series, and they got just warm. Not hot....!!

I have also cut the small "finger" of the spark plug, (lets say the cathode) as seen in your video with the ultrasonic humidifier, and the plasma became even bigger.!!

That's all since now....

Thanks,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 22, 2008, 01:11:27 AM
After seeing djzissis video of the engine spinning over with water and plasma only and remembering Ossie doing the same experiment, it got me to wondering just how much a standard engine with gas and a normal ignition would spin.

 In both test I used a automotive coil and grounded down the side of the cylinder head, made a nice rapid fire spark. First engine was a weed eater engine 2-stoke with a very small combustion chamber. Wetting the plug with gas and screwing it into head, engine at TDC, then firing the plug I got nothing. I did this several times, nothing. Then I spun the engine by hand to build up some compression, again at TDC then fired the plug, the engine spun only 180*. I did this several more times with no better results.

Second engine was a a 5 hp Honda 4-stoke. Did all the above test plus poured some gas into the cylinder. The results were worse, at best the engine spun a quarter of a turn.

  I'm not sure if all this means anything but I'm not able to duplicate djzissis results and he's using water!  Keep up the good work guys ;D

Hello provelless..!!

Thanks for sharing something like this, and thanks for taking time to do a test like me and Ossie did.

Anyway, are you sure that you don't have any movement using a wet or even a dry spark-plug, and plasma????
What is the circuit are you using?

Can you post some videos of the spark and engine tests please??

Maybe I' am wrong, on my last tests on videos, but I think that it is a bit hard for gasoline to be left inside the engine, since I have never succeeded in making a regular spark on this engine.
My engine, was standing without gas for some years. That's why I am thinking like this.... you know....!!

Thanks again for testing and sharing the results.  ;)

Regards,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 22, 2008, 01:45:50 AM
'nother circuit diagram

Hi everyone,

Some wanted more specifics on the VexUs circuit, component values, etc. So I added to the diagrams posted thus far with the following one. I have included the voltage multiplier (doubler) and all of the other values. I hope picturing the 'air gap' alleviates coil heating concerns ... it just can't happen ... the coil is not really connected to the circuit ... only in the lab. During this last build, I actually used an air gap (just taped the connector jacks about 2 - 3 mm apart) ... worked great!

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_6.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 22, 2008, 02:11:45 AM
Looks great Greg ;)

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: provelless on November 22, 2008, 03:09:40 AM
Hello provelless..!!

Thanks for sharing something like this, and thanks for taking time to do a test like me and Ossie did.

Anyway, are you sure that you don't have any movement using a wet or even a dry spark-plug, and plasma????
What is the circuit are you using?

Can you post some videos of the spark and engine tests please??

Maybe I' am wrong, on my last tests on videos, but I think that it is a bit hard for gasoline to be left inside the engine, since I have never succeeded in making a regular spark on this engine.
My engine, was standing without gas for some years. That's why I am thinking like this.... you know....!!

Thanks again for testing and sharing the results.  ;)

Regards,
Zissis


Zissis no plasma. Basically I took stock engines with stock ignition systems  and using gas to see how far the flywheel would spin. I did this to compare with your test.  It seems to me you"re getting more reaction out of plasma and water than I am with gas. The fact that your engine spun with plasma only is pretty impressive.

 Greg, do you ever take a break? ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 22, 2008, 03:15:57 AM
Thanks Greg,

I was in the process of going back through the posts to find this diagram and got side tracked this morning.  Was glad when I got back to the computer to find it.

I came into this a little late and have been reading a lot and trying to remember where I saw things.  It didn't make it any easier when the pages jumped up to so many. 8-)

Question,

I am going to put this on a 1980 Chrysler Newport 5.2, do I need to build two systems, or will one do the job?  I read that someone is putting one on a 5.7 Chevy.   I am sorry that I can't remember the name.

Thanks again to everyone for working so diligently on this project.

Rog
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 22, 2008, 04:34:47 AM

Zissis no plasma. Basically I took stock engines with stock ignition systems  and using gas to see how far the flywheel would spin. I did this to compare with your test.  It seems to me you"re getting more reaction out of plasma and water than I am with gas. The fact that your engine spun with plasma only is pretty impressive.

 Greg, do you ever take a break? ;D

Hi provelless, I very much agree with you :) ... Zissis's has demonstrated the best Water Plasma Expansion ever demonstrated on this topic.

I truly hope Zissis continues with his testing and development as the World is watching.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 22, 2008, 10:24:22 AM
Hi provelless, I very much agree with you :) ... Zissis's has demonstrated the best Water Plasma Expansion ever demonstrated on this topic.

I truly hope Zissis continues with his testing and development as the World is watching.

Thanks for sharing

Luc


@ provelless

I thought that you were using plasma.  :D
Very useful tests though.

Thank you!

@ Luc

Luc.... you are very encourageful..!! Thanks my friend....!!

Damianos told me that it is very important in our case to use a resistor (like our 100W bulb) in parallel with the coil. This way, we eliminate any negative self-inductance of the coil. This is better for our whole circuit.
Thus with the ballast (coil) mounted on, we have more power available for more sparks per second (Hz)
 
This is all for now....

Zissis!!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cell1 on November 22, 2008, 09:00:42 PM

Hi,
I made the changes suggested by Zissis. To eliminate negative self-inductance of the coil I suggest you to put in parallel with the ballast a diode inversed polarized.
Thanks to all.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gwlp34vaDs
The maximum frequency in video is 150Hz.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 23, 2008, 03:27:32 AM
Hi cell1,

thank you for sharing your test results.

Great job ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 23, 2008, 04:18:04 AM
Thanks Greg,

I was in the process of going back through the posts to find this diagram and got side tracked this morning.  Was glad when I got back to the computer to find it.

I came into this a little late and have been reading a lot and trying to remember where I saw things.  It didn't make it any easier when the pages jumped up to so many. 8-)

Question,

I am going to put this on a 1980 Chrysler Newport 5.2, do I need to build two systems, or will one do the job?  I read that someone is putting one on a 5.7 Chevy.   I am sorry that I can't remember the name.

Thanks again to everyone for working so diligently on this project.

Rog

Hi Rog,

Well, the guy that's putting it on a V-8 that I'm aware of is jstadwater (Mike).  He's the one to ask.  If you have been following all this stuff you'll recall that I posted a warning that I had fried my inverter(s) on the VexUs circuit.  Since I thought the stupid circuit up in the first place it was upsetting for this to happen.  I blew four inverters ... and to this day I don't know the nature of the failures.  Since the circuit itself has always been super stable, I decided to go with a generic oscillator circuit.  It' also has been posted several times here and on Energetic Forum (Water Spark Plug).  The rationale was to eliminate sensitive CMOS components ... most of today's stuff has that in them, and they always blow !  I have been successfully operating on mine for weeks now. 

Your question has to do with "capacity".  I have computed that my 4-cyl engine requires 24 Watts of support for 3500 RPM and a 3 uF CDI Capacitor.  So the 24 VA transformer, 115 VAC primary X 10 VAC secondary (2.4 Amp - series hook up) was an OK choice.  For a V-8 you would need a 115 VAC X 10 VAC secondary (4.8 Amp - series hook up) is my guess.  I use only two (of the possible four) transistors on my oscillator but you would likely need to use all four.

Assuming you have the proper oscillator support, the issue of the HV voltage multiplier becomes important.  That is to say it needs to be big enough to support the spark plug firing frequency.  Too small (not enough capacitor capacity) the voltage drops with RPM too quickly and you loose the plasma spark.  You can only see this happening with an o'scope.  It may look like a good plasma spark at RPM but it's not what it could be.

There are far more dynamics to this than I ever planned to get involved in but since it's necessary I'm glad I worked to figure it out.

WHEW ... So, if you build it right, you only need one (1).

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 23, 2008, 07:47:18 AM
Hi,
I made the changes suggested by Zissis. To eliminate negative self-inductance of the coil I suggest you to put in parallel with the ballast a diode inversed polarized.
Thanks to all.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gwlp34vaDs
The maximum frequency in video is 150Hz.

Hello cell1....!!!!

Tested your suggestion and there is no difference in the spark with or without the diode. Very right suggestion though  ;)
Thank you very very much for testing my setup.

As you can achieve spark at 150Hz, can you tell please me if there is a decrease in the spark as the frequency is growing?? (with the ballast mounted on)

Thank you very much.!!


Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: soapdodger on November 23, 2008, 12:26:25 PM

hello everyone, great thread

Zissis, great work very impressed by your engine rotations!

 im going to replicate your circuit, you describe the coil as negative spark.

Is it correct that most coils are negative earth - positive spark?

so I will need to find a negative spark plug, from a vehicle that has a positive earth (the + from the battery is connected to the chassis)

or can i use a negative earth - positive spark coil but wire it as you have done?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 23, 2008, 04:02:17 PM
hello everyone, great thread

Zissis, great work very impressed by your engine rotations!

 im going to replicate your circuit, you describe the coil as negative spark.

Is it correct that most coils are negative earth - positive spark?

so I will need to find a negative spark plug, from a vehicle that has a positive earth (the + from the battery is connected to the chassis)

or can i use a negative earth - positive spark coil but wire it as you have done?

Hello my friend!!

I am not a mechanical engineer yet to know much about ignition coils (I am 17 years old)

I thing that if you reverse the 12V polarity of an ignition coil you will get the opposite spark. I am not sure about this. You can test the High Voltage polarity by putting diodes. For example D3 (Diode 3) on my circuit. If the High Voltage is positive, a spark should not occur.

Anyway, I have drawn my circuit and part list for you, as my setup is. The part list is not absolute. Any similar parts, should be fine.!

Alternation 2 is a design for electronic ignition. The same as Capacitor 70 and Damianos members have suggested and used.

Here you are with the circuit.:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/3052259785_cd6dccb269.jpg?v=0)

Full quality here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/3052259785_cd6dccb269_b.jpg


And parts List.:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/3052261491_717c96926d.jpg?v=0)

Full quality here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/3052261491_717c96926d_b.jpg


If there is anything you want to ask, I am here!!

Thank you very much, awaiting your findings.!!


Greetings,
Zissis


P.S. If you will find a coil with positive spark, we can modify the circuit, and make it with "negative ground"
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cell1 on November 23, 2008, 04:12:24 PM
Hi,
The sparks still the same at higher frequency. If I increase the capacity of capacitors, the spark is to strong. The maximum frequency it is 260Hz but it is a limitation of the ignition coil.
I use 40W ballast (0.98mH and 3ohms) and two capacitor of 14uF/400V in parallel after the ballast.
The problem is that the spark plug is hot after one minute at 100Hz.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 23, 2008, 04:26:42 PM
Hi,
The sparks still the same at higher frequency. If I increase the capacity of capacitors, the spark is to strong. The maximum frequency it is 260Hz but it is a limitation of the ignition coil.
I use 40W ballast (0.98mH and 3ohms) and two capacitor of 14uF/400V in parallel after the ballast.
The problem is that the spark plug is hot after one minute at 100Hz.


Very Fine my friend!!!!

Very good setup!! I am using capacitors around 100μF after the ballast and lamp.

The spark-plug temperature is very encourageful, because our goal is to expand water inside the cylinder by the temperature of the spark. Ain't that right?

Quote
" it is a limitation of the ignition coil."
What do you mean by that??

Thank you very very very much for posting your results.!!

What about some water vapor or droplets inside the spark?? Have you tried that yet?? What changes do you see?

Thanks again!!
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 23, 2008, 05:55:52 PM
Zissis and cell1,

very good discussion going on ;D

I think what cell1 is saying is an ignition coil will have a high frequency limit because of the core material being steel lamination.  Now if we had a coil with a ferrite core we could go much higher frequency.

I suggest we start experimenting with a large television flyback transformer which operates in the range 18 Khz or more since they have a ferrite core ;D

As you are saying a high temperature plasma maybe better for a combustion engine since they love expansion ;)

Do some searches on YouTube on resonant fyback. Here is one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G--OlsnhX4I

I think if we work with resonance at high frequency we may find that we can have the spark last for many degrease of the power stroke giving the heat needed to expand the water. The other bonus is that at resonance little power is used to create the plasma.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 23, 2008, 09:11:26 PM
Hi Luc!!

Look what I have found!!

(http://www.personal.psu.edu/sdb229/plasma%20schematic.gif)

In this webpage : http://www.personal.psu.edu/sdb229/my%2520plasma%2520ball.html


Please comment!!

Thanks!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: soapdodger on November 23, 2008, 10:14:42 PM
Hello my friend!!

I am not a mechanical engineer yet to know much about ignition coils (I am 17 years old)

I thing that if you reverse the 12V polarity of an ignition coil you will get the opposite spark. I am not sure about this. You can test the High Voltage polarity by putting diodes. For example D3 (Diode 3) on my circuit. If the High Voltage is positive, a spark should not occur.

Anyway, I have drawn my circuit and part list for you, as my setup is. The part list is not absolute. Any similar parts, should be fine.!

Alternation 2 is a design for electronic ignition. The same as Capacitor 70 and Damianos members have suggested and used.

Here you are with the circuit.:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/3052259785_cd6dccb269.jpg?v=0)

Full quality here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/3052259785_cd6dccb269_b.jpg


And parts List.:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/3052261491_717c96926d.jpg?v=0)

Full quality here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/3052261491_717c96926d_b.jpg


If there is anything you want to ask, I am here!!

Thank you very much, awaiting your findings.!!


Greetings,
Zissis


P.S. If you will find a coil with positive spark, we can modify the circuit, and make it with "negative ground"

thankyou zizssis from what i havre read a coil wired the wrong way is 15% less efficient.

it wold be good to try a circuit with a negative spark, they are more common.

can you describe a circuit with positive spark?

thanks lots for your help!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 24, 2008, 12:05:36 AM
Hi Luc!!

Look what I have found!!

(http://www.personal.psu.edu/sdb229/plasma%20schematic.gif)

In this webpage : http://www.personal.psu.edu/sdb229/my%2520plasma%2520ball.html


Please comment!!

Thanks!


Hi Zissis,

at this time I'm using dial-up internet so it would take too long for me to see the complete page and or video's

I can see the page is about how to make a plasma globe. Maybe you can tell me what you find interesting about this and I can comment on it later as tomorrow morning I'm driving for 30 hours to return to Canada from Florida.

I should be back online Wednesday night or Thursday.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 24, 2008, 12:24:58 AM
Hello everyone,

I have been busy doing some numb-skull experiments.  One experiment that has determined the direction for the water spark plug's application to my Bug is this one:

First - older air cooled VW engines have an inlet air heat duct that comes from the hot air heater manifold (wraps around the exhaust).  At idle a vane directs cooler inlet air to draw warm air off of the exhaust system for warm up.  As the engine speed increases the vane is deflected by the flow and begins to bypass the warm air and include cooler ambient air.

It is at the inlet end of the heat duct that I liberally sprayed water mist that readily turns to steam and is ingested as water vapor along with the air.

With the plasma spark switched 'OFF', the engine sputtered or slowed at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

With the plasma spark switched 'ON', the engine sped up at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

So, I will by leaning the engine and bubbling bypass exhaust up through 50% distilled water / gasoline as a component of the inlet air.

This is exciting !

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on November 24, 2008, 12:42:35 AM
Hello everyone,

I have been busy doing some numb-skull experiments.  One experiment that has determined the direction for the water spark plug's application to my Bug is this one:

First - older air cooled VW engines have an inlet air heat duct that comes from the hot air heater manifold (wraps around the exhaust).  At idle a vane directs cooler inlet air to draw warm air off of the exhaust system for warm up.  As the engine speed increases the vane is deflected by the flow and begins to bypass the warm air and include cooler ambient air.

It is at the inlet end of the heat duct that I liberally sprayed water mist that readily turns to steam and is ingested as water vapor along with the air.

With the plasma spark switched 'OFF', the engine sputtered or slowed at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

With the plasma spark switched 'ON', the engine sped up at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

So, I will by leaning the engine and bubbling bypass exhaust up through 50% distilled water / gasoline as a component of the inlet air.

This is exciting !

Peace,

Greg

KOOL!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 24, 2008, 01:29:01 AM
Hello everyone,

I have been busy doing some numb-skull experiments.  One experiment that has determined the direction for the water spark plug's application to my Bug is this one:

First - older air cooled VW engines have an inlet air heat duct that comes from the hot air heater manifold (wraps around the exhaust).  At idle a vane directs cooler inlet air to draw warm air off of the exhaust system for warm up.  As the engine speed increases the vane is deflected by the flow and begins to bypass the warm air and include cooler ambient air.

It is at the inlet end of the heat duct that I liberally sprayed water mist that readily turns to steam and is ingested as water vapor along with the air.

With the plasma spark switched 'OFF', the engine sputtered or slowed at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

With the plasma spark switched 'ON', the engine sped up at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

So, I will by leaning the engine and bubbling bypass exhaust up through 50% distilled water / gasoline as a component of the inlet air.

This is exciting !

Peace,

Greg

Excellent setup idea Greg ;) ... looks like you found a new use for those heaters ;D ... kind of like a semi GEET built right in :D ... very kool 8)

Things are beginning to get very interesting ;) ... are you also going to play with retarding the timing?

Thanks for sharing these important and exiting test results.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 24, 2008, 06:26:14 AM
thankyou zizssis from what i havre read a coil wired the wrong way is 15% less efficient.

it wold be good to try a circuit with a negative spark, they are more common.

can you describe a circuit with positive spark?

thanks lots for your help!


Ok soapdodger!

I will try to make a "positive spark - negative ground" circuit, but first I have to test it.! May take a bit of time.

I will keep you posted!!

Zissis

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 24, 2008, 06:32:16 AM
Hi Zissis,

at this time I'm using dial-up internet so it would take too long for me to see the complete page and or video's

I can see the page is about how to make a plasma globe. Maybe you can tell me what you find interesting about this and I can comment on it later as tomorrow morning I'm driving for 30 hours to return to Canada from Florida.

I should be back online Wednesday night or Thursday.

Luc


Hi Luc!!

This guy uses a T.V. flyback transformer to make plasma.
Since you mentioned something about flyback transformers, I found something and poted it.

Nothing special :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 24, 2008, 06:47:59 AM
Hello everyone,

I have been busy doing some numb-skull experiments.  One experiment that has determined the direction for the water spark plug's application to my Bug is this one:

First - older air cooled VW engines have an inlet air heat duct that comes from the hot air heater manifold (wraps around the exhaust).  At idle a vane directs cooler inlet air to draw warm air off of the exhaust system for warm up.  As the engine speed increases the vane is deflected by the flow and begins to bypass the warm air and include cooler ambient air.

It is at the inlet end of the heat duct that I liberally sprayed water mist that readily turns to steam and is ingested as water vapor along with the air.

With the plasma spark switched 'OFF', the engine sputtered or slowed at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

With the plasma spark switched 'ON', the engine sped up at idle with the addition of the water vapor.

So, I will by leaning the engine and bubbling bypass exhaust up through 50% distilled water / gasoline as a component of the inlet air.

This is exciting !

Peace,

Greg

Very good Greg!!

Go on..!!!!


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 25, 2008, 04:55:38 AM
Thanks Greg,

Thanks for the very good and thorough answer.  I am electronics illiterate and the answer spelled out a lot thing I had not thought of.

I am in the process of ordering the parts I need to build the circuit.  I haven't tried to build one yet, but I am uncomfortable building one with an inverter.  When I saw everyone frying them, I am reasonably sure I would fry some too.

I am having trouble finding a 3uF capacitor.  (I am not sure I have figured out what the relationship between the uF and voltage of a capacitor.)  So I will prolly build it and adjust as necessary.

Thanks again for the help Greg, and all you others too.  I read every post, and then go back and reread them.

Good luck and God speed to all,

Rog
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on November 25, 2008, 07:50:40 AM
SS tube connected to audio amplifier


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nRzCX9oVqQ4&fmt=18


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R7i3pDPz2YU&fmt=18
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 25, 2008, 05:26:44 PM
Thanks Greg,

Thanks for the very good and thorough answer.  I am electronics illiterate and the answer spelled out a lot thing I had not thought of.

I am in the process of ordering the parts I need to build the circuit.  I haven't tried to build one yet, but I am uncomfortable building one with an inverter.  When I saw everyone frying them, I am reasonably sure I would fry some too.

I am having trouble finding a 3uF capacitor.  (I am not sure I have figured out what the relationship between the uF and voltage of a capacitor.)  So I will prolly build it and adjust as necessary.

Thanks again for the help Greg, and all you others too.  I read every post, and then go back and reread them.

Good luck and God speed to all,

Rog

Hi Rog,

Back when I was trying to figure that out in school I suddenly "...had a V-8".  It goes like this:

...and "this"  applies to 'RC' time constants.  In the VexUs circuit there is a resistor that allows the capacitor to charge up, but it is important to charge it up as near 'full' as possible before the 'regular' ignition spark fires again.  The time allotted for this can be computed based on RPM, the fact that it is a 4-stroke or 2- stroke engine, etc.

If you charge an empty capacitor with a resistor then it takes "X" amount of time for that capacitor to reach a given amount of "fullness".  The physics folks decided a long time ago that when a capacitor is charged to 63% fullness, the time it took to do 'that' is called "one time constant".  "four" time constants is considered to be full and "five" time constants is considered to be "steady state" .... doesn't charge anymore. 

As strange as it sounds, it doesn't matter whether you are using 1 volt or 1000 volts to charge a capacitor, given the same resistance, it will charge to the same degree of 'fullness' in the same time.  Notice that I have NOT SAID it will "reach the same voltage".  A higher charging voltage will reach a higher voltage level than a lower voltage for the same resistor and capacitor.  The important issue the 'time constant' as the relationship we are interested in.  In the 1-volt circuit, the capacitor is full after approx. 4 time constants at 1-volt . The 1000-volt circuit capacitor is full after approx. 4 time constants at 1000 volts.  This works for the same resistor and capacitor in both the 1 volt AND the 1000 volt circuit.  A time constant is calculated as the product of the capacitance C and the resistance R.  1 time constant = R X C,  t = RC

What's different is the amount of energy (Joules) that have been stored in the capacitor.  This does put capacitance and voltage in a radical dependency ... exponential in fact.  j = 1/2 X C X (V ^ 2) .

V^2 means Voltage Squared ... (V x V) in keyboard language.

It is important that the resistor and capacitor have the appropriate physical ratings ... an appropriate 'voltage rating' for the capacitor and a proper 'power rating' for the resistor.

Things drift around a little based on temperature and other variables.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 25, 2008, 06:21:53 PM
SS tube connected to audio amplifier


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nRzCX9oVqQ4&fmt=18


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R7i3pDPz2YU&fmt=18


Hi my friend dreamyear!

I give you my congratulations!
If you could only please tell me  , what kind of thing is that in the water.
Is it a loudspeaker, a coil , and if could you please tell me what and how is it made of.
Are these bubbles Hydrogen?
And what is the power consumption of the amplifier.

Thank you
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 25, 2008, 06:44:24 PM
Thanks Greg,

I appreciate you taking the time to explain that to me.  As I said, I am sincerely deficient in my knowledge of electronics.

It is guys like you and the others who are making this thread great.

I spent my last twenty-five years working on automatic transmissions.  But for the last six years I have been disabled and can only do very limited work.  I can do a lot of things, but not long at a time.

I downloaded a short electronics tutorial, but as I was reading it and trying to catch up on all the posts on this thread and two other threads, I know I missed a lot.  I am also smart enough to know that I ain't gonna learn what you men know in six or eight months.  What ya'll have prolly took your life time to learn.


All of you men in this group are gifted individuals.  First because you can take an idea and bring it to fruition, second because you have the knowledge to put what you are doing and have done in words to help us slower ones.

So, again to you Greg, you luc, and all the rest THANK YOU!! for your endeavors and achievements.

Good luck, and God speed,
Rog
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 25, 2008, 07:25:27 PM
Thanks Greg,

I appreciate you taking the time to explain that to me.  As I said, I am sincerely deficient in my knowledge of electronics.

It is guys like you and the others who are making this thread great.

I spent my last twenty-five years working on automatic transmissions.  But for the last six years I have been disabled and can only do very limited work.  I can do a lot of things, but not long at a time.

I downloaded a short electronics tutorial, but as I was reading it and trying to catch up on all the posts on this thread and two other threads, I know I missed a lot.  I am also smart enough to know that I ain't gonna learn what you men know in six or eight months.  What ya'll have prolly took your life time to learn.


All of you men in this group are gifted individuals.  First because you can take an idea and bring it to fruition, second because you have the knowledge to put what you are doing and have done in words to help us slower ones.

So, again to you Greg, you luc, and all the rest THANK YOU!! for your endeavors and achievements.

Good luck, and God speed,
Rog


Hi Rog,

Did you look at the original video that started it all? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE

You can also see the evolution of the 'water spark plug' on Energetic Forum "Water Spark Plug" thread.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 25, 2008, 09:04:46 PM
Hi my friends,

Hi my friend Greg,
I am very happy to read you!

So my friends,
there is also a very useful address here
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf (http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf)

I thank all people who take care to our attempt
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 25, 2008, 10:19:51 PM
Hi Greg,

I started reading sometime in Oct and have read all the posts on this thread and a good many of them on the energetic forum too.  I also got side lined on the thread SuperGod has going about s1r's stuff.  The sad part is I was trying so hard to catch up and not get any further behind that I did not retain a lot of what I read.  Since I realized what I was doing to myself, I only keep up with this thread and the one on energetic forum.

I have also been trying to get the stuff together to build zerofossilfuel's current limiting pwm.

I have also read a lot of the information on panacea university. 

Even tho I have read all that, I am the type who has to do some hands on, to understand it.  Like for instance I learned a whole lot about a television when I was in my 20's back in the mid sixties.  I learned not to touch the wire that went up to the side of the picture tube.  8-)

I bought a coil like the one that is in the video but am trying to stay from using the inverter.  Although I bought a 220 150watt inverter, which I will use if necessary. 

I didn't know about any of these fuel efficient forums till about May of this year.  I have built several electrolysis cells and was sorta disappointed with them and was looking for something else when I found Luc's video at the beginning of this thread. 

However, I am still a nube when it comes to doing any of it.

Thanks again for your help.  I want you men to know that I really appreciate your willingness to help us.

I keep wanting to give all of you a lot of "attaboys".

Good luck and God speed,
Rog 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 26, 2008, 12:19:21 AM
Hi my friends,

Hi my friend Greg,
I am very happy to read you!

So my friends,
there is also a very useful address here
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf (http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf)

I thank all people who take care to our attempt


Hi Damianos,

Thanks.  Yes it gets updated regularly.  Much of my stuff is in there too ... find it under 'gmeast'  I will have newer stuff there soon.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 26, 2008, 04:02:41 AM
Hi everyone,

I built and installed a water system today.  It is very simple and introduces hot steam into the inlet air.  This keeps the inlet air warm- guaranteeing good mixing between the air, gas vapor and steam water vapor.

I did some highway driving and more back road and around-town driving before topping off the fuel tank and taking the odometer reading.  Of course I checked the plasma system to make sure all was fine with that too.

The water addition rate is about 2 drips every 3 seconds.  For the record my odometer reading is 35987.  I have no idea how many times it has actually flipped.

Kinda' looks like my Bug is on an I V Drip ... hope it survives !

I have linked six (6) pictures of the installation.

Peace,

Greg

-overall picture
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam1.jpg)

-shows holding tank
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam2.jpg)

-shows sight glass (vinyl really) & needle valve above
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam3.jpg)

-shows water line entering hot carburetor air inlet tube
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam4.jpg)

-shows water line on inside wall of hot air inlet tube
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam5.jpg)

-shows the hot exhaust pipe that the water drips onto
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam6.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 26, 2008, 04:34:14 AM
Looks good Greg,

I am waiting with baited breath to hear how the mileage increases. 

Did it feel different with the water dripping?

I saw an article in a magazine years ago of a man in Germany who had over a million miles on a bug.  I don't remember how many engines he had put in it.  Maybe your's will live longer.  It prolly has a better chance.

Keep up the good work!!!  I bet you are excited, I would be!!!


Good luck and God Speed.

Rog
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on November 26, 2008, 05:06:20 AM
Great Job Greg,
I done water feeding,
but on that time, i decide to feed only on part load,  :)
i put water tank at front and feed line under floor to engine pass oil crank and copper tube that drill cross exhaust pipe for 100% sure that i will get steem.
steem will feed under carburator with one aquarium air valve, this will feed water only parth load include idal, or if you want only part load not include idal speed you can use vacuum line of distributor.
 
test with that as i ever post water 1.5-2 lite/40 km., only steem was not help mpg increase even i lean as much as i can, and power significantly dropdown i can't open air condition at idal.

i try sarvaral way to install Vexsus to my daily drive bug, but invertor always show red falt,... may be i must doublicate your invertor system.

again, Great Job man... ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 26, 2008, 05:29:04 AM
Great Job Greg,
I done water feeding,
but on that time, i decide to feed only on part load,  :)
i put water tank at front and feed line under floor to engine pass oil crank and copper tube that drill cross exhaust pipe for 100% sure that i will get steem.
steem will feed under carburator with one aquarium air valve, this will feed water only parth load include idal, or if you want only part load not include idal speed you can use vacuum line of distributor.
 
test with that as i ever post water 1.5-2 lite/40 km., only steem was not help mpg increase even i lean as much as i can, and power significantly dropdown i can't open air condition at idal.

i try sarvaral way to install Vexsus to my daily drive bug, but invertor always show red falt,... may be i must doublicate your invertor system.

again, Great Job man... ;D

Hi Zis,

You're lucky you inverter just showed a red fault light.  Mine just blew up.  I know the cmos went crazy then the inverter shorted itself out because the internal 50Amp fuse was blown and the circuit certainly couldn't draw that much.  It is still a mystery.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 26, 2008, 07:56:57 AM
Hi Zis,

You're lucky you inverter just showed a red fault light.  Mine just blew up.  I know the cmos went crazy then the inverter shorted itself out because the internal 50Amp fuse was blown and the circuit certainly couldn't draw that much.  It is still a mystery.

Greg

I meant "Hi zzzz" ... Sorry Zis

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 26, 2008, 02:01:30 PM
I meant "Hi zzzz" ... Sorry Zis

Greg


Hehe!!  :D

Don't worry brother!!
I doesn't matter!!  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 26, 2008, 08:19:23 PM
Hi my friend Greg,

Anyway , I have to give you again my congratulations for your work,
and to thank you for your new posted fotos.
I would like to make you a question if you allow me, please...
So, my friend Greg , could you please tell me , if you have remarked any difference at the motor temperature values, in your VW Beetle ,
when it works with, and when it works without "plasma fire"...
I would be very glad my brother when you answer this to me...
thank you again

Your friend
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 26, 2008, 08:48:51 PM
Hi my friend Greg,

Anyway , I have to give you again my congratulations for your work,
and to thank you for your new posted fotos.
I would like to make you a question if you allow me, please...
So, my friend Greg , could you please tell me , if you have remarked any difference at the motor temperature values, in your VW Beetle ,
when it works with, and when it works without "plasma fire"...
I would be very glad my brother when you answer this to me...
thank you again

Your friend
Damianos

Hi Damianos,

Yes, the exhaust gas temperature is at much cooler ... maybe -200 F or more.  After warm up you can still get condensation on a metal plate. 

It is sluggish when the plasma is turned off.  The exhaust pipe must be hot to make steam so I'm not making steam during all of  the warm up.

I am going to mess with the timing.  I filled the gas tank up with cheaper gas to test detonation sensitivity.  I'm not sure where the timing should be with plasma + water ? ? ? ... any suggestions anyone ?

Thanks Damianos,

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 26, 2008, 10:44:16 PM
Hi my friend Greg,

thank you for your very very useful answer.
I also wanted to say (I know that you already know that, and of course better than me), that when we want test the engine, it is really better to try first with a cheaper gasoline and after with a slight mixture with water (for example 95% gasoline and 5% water, and after this, to try with 90% gasoline and 10% water, ect , ect...)
But i suggest always to check the engine about any remarkable difficulty , of its turning on (for a new start).
I also believe that it is better to make all this test on a secondary engine (and not in our car's  engine)

I hope, nowdays , that  i will get a second hand engine to help me to make the experiments.

Anyway I have to thank you again my friend for your help.

Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on November 27, 2008, 02:47:15 AM
Hi Greg,
   as I ever mention about timing, that relate with behavior of rpm increase after apply VexUs, I still not so sure about where the power came from.
   First is plasma make combustion more rapidly in totally time comsuming process, that make engine act like alitle more advance,( from my experiences, normal engine alway set to alitle retard for safe the engine ) that can increase RPM,  if be this way more advance will reduce RPM because timming is too much (same as add HHO mixing to engine).
  Second that i suspect is plasma create after combustion already start, so arround the plug not have intake anymore , have only exhaust gas that comprise of  H2O and CO2.  H2O+plasma = recombustion and push frame front more rapidly, in this case more advances and longer plasma period( maybe larger uf of C )can increase RPM...
  I don't know withc one, or have another theorys. But power increasing must have the way they came from...

   sorry for my bad english, i try to solve this but as i mention, invertor still be my problems...

  Hope this will help...thanks,
zzz.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on November 27, 2008, 03:46:09 AM
Hi Greg,

I still love the way you are doing this project on your car.  It has me excited and I wish I was home so I could get started on my car too.  It is all I can do to sit still.

In thinking about your timing with water/steam injection I keep being reminded of how older cars used to run better on damp cool evenings.  I loved to race when the car was running that way.  It seemed that the better tuned the engine was the better the car run as compared to racing someone with a similar car.  Most times the race was determined by who had the newest points and plugs.  Now you have the best spark anyone can hope for.

We didn't change the timing then.  The cooler, damper air burned fine just like it was.

Now with this situation, what I would consider doing is blocking the engine rpm to about 2k and putting a vacuum gauge on manifold vac.  Then play the dist. back and forth to get the maximum vac on the gauge.  I think we used to expect about 27in on the gauge.  What I usually did then was clamp the dist there and go for a drive and try all kinds of throttle positions to see if it would "ping".  If it did, I would back the timing back down about 1/2 inch at a time till the ping was gone.  You prolly already know that setting an engine with a timing light doesn't always produce the best advance setting.  At one time I worked at a John Deere dealership and we had to put every overhauled engine on a dyno,   After we run one in for an hour we would pull it back into the shop and re-torque the head and readjust the valves.  Then it went back on the dyno and that time when we got it to normal operating temp.  We would play with the dist till we got the highest reading on the dyno.  If you set your timing as I suggested, it may behave differently when you have it on the road as as engine will change when the load is put on it.  After all tractors didn't have vac advance to come into play when the load changed.


As for the water, I would be dripping it in as I was trying it with the vacuum gauge.

Of course, I am thinking in old school and this is a brand new field of expertise.  But if you set the timing that way, you would have a good base line to work from.

I would also at the same time be adjusting the water to see how much I could get it to keep running on without misfiring.

Just my thoughts, hope this helps.

Good luck and God speed,
Rog 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 27, 2008, 05:22:16 PM
Hi Greg,

I still love the way you are doing this project on your car.  It has me excited and I wish I was home so I could get started on my car too.  It is all I can do to sit still.

In thinking about your timing with water/steam injection I keep being reminded of how older cars used to run better on damp cool evenings.  I loved to race when the car was running that way.  It seemed that the better tuned the engine was the better the car run as compared to racing someone with a similar car.  Most times the race was determined by who had the newest points and plugs.  Now you have the best spark anyone can hope for.

We didn't change the timing then.  The cooler, damper air burned fine just like it was.

Now with this situation, what I would consider doing is blocking the engine rpm to about 2k and putting a vacuum gauge on manifold vac.  Then play the dist. back and forth to get the maximum vac on the gauge.  I think we used to expect about 27in on the gauge.  What I usually did then was clamp the dist there and go for a drive and try all kinds of throttle positions to see if it would "ping".  If it did, I would back the timing back down about 1/2 inch at a time till the ping was gone.  You prolly already know that setting an engine with a timing light doesn't always produce the best advance setting.  At one time I worked at a John Deere dealership and we had to put every overhauled engine on a dyno,   After we run one in for an hour we would pull it back into the shop and re-torque the head and readjust the valves.  Then it went back on the dyno and that time when we got it to normal operating temp.  We would play with the dist till we got the highest reading on the dyno.  If you set your timing as I suggested, it may behave differently when you have it on the road as as engine will change when the load is put on it.  After all tractors didn't have vac advance to come into play when the load changed.


As for the water, I would be dripping it in as I was trying it with the vacuum gauge.

Of course, I am thinking in old school and this is a brand new field of expertise.  But if you set the timing that way, you would have a good base line to work from.

I would also at the same time be adjusting the water to see how much I could get it to keep running on without misfiring.

Just my thoughts, hope this helps.

Good luck and God speed,
Rog 

Hi Rog,

There's nothing 'old school' about it !  The nature of a flame front, the energy available in a quant of gasoline, the horrible thermal losses in engine design. etc ... those things haven't changed.  I'm now of the opinion that fuel injection is a real evil.  Any combustion engineer will tell you that as long as there is a droplet of any fuel, it will just smolder away.  That's not vaporization.  We may be seeing a return to more normal aspiration arrangements. 

I'm going to use your "... blocking the engine at 2K ..." and look for the maximum vac. and go from there.  Sounds good to me.  I'm guilty of setting the timing by 'feel'.

Thanks,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 27, 2008, 07:23:58 PM
Hi Luc!!

This guy uses a T.V. flyback transformer to make plasma.
Since you mentioned something about flyback transformers, I found something and poted it.

Nothing special :)

Okay! thanks for the reply djzissis :)

I have something else in mind and I will share if I have any results.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 27, 2008, 07:46:58 PM
Hi everyone,

I was away from home for the past 3 1/2 weeks but I'm now home (Ottawa, Canada) after a long 2 day (30 hours) drive from Florida.

I'm glad to see the topic is alive and well thanks to Greg's and everyone's input.

Thank you for all your contributions ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 27, 2008, 08:00:39 PM
SS tube connected to audio amplifier


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nRzCX9oVqQ4&fmt=18


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R7i3pDPz2YU&fmt=18


Hi dreamyear,

this sounds like a great idea ;D ... was the coil and core we see with the speaker wire warped around it used?  or is i strait from the amp output?

If you start a topic please post the link here as many maybe interested.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 27, 2008, 08:50:09 PM
Hi everyone,

I built and installed a water system today.  It is very simple and .............................................keeps the inlet air warm - guaranteeing good mixing between the air, gas vapor and steam water vapor.

I did some highway ............................................................ I checked the plasma system to make sure all was fine with that too.

... For the record my odometer reading is 35987.  I have no idea how many times it has actually flipped.

Kinda' looks like my Bug is on an I V Drip ... hope it survives !

I have linked ...........................................
Peace,

Greg

Hi everyone,

I have to correct the record.  I looked at my PDA and odometer start milage was "35687" not "35987"  'cause I'm now approaching my first 100 miles of test driving at 35775.  Well, there ya go, can't read my own PDA.

Happy Thanksgiving to all Americans,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cell1 on November 27, 2008, 10:05:58 PM
Hi,
I ask you because you have experience in this field and you can tell me if need to try.
What it is the difference between a plasma spark  and a spark produced by a oven transformer into a spark plug?
I compared booth spark on the same spark plug and them appear the same as velocity.
Why I ask. I want to try one of two possibilities: One with a fly back transformer (djzissis ideea) or another with an oven transformer (I see at gotoluc something into a youtube video).  My interest it is the intensity of the spark. The HV transformer has a high voltage and very good frequency oscillation bat week intensity.  At this, I suppose, need attached a current intensifier as in your circuit. The oven transformer assures a good intensity and a good voltage but works at low frequency.   

Excuse me for English.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 27, 2008, 11:28:37 PM
Hi everyone,

I know it's not much but I just rolled over 101 miles in my test.  You have to rock the Bug to get the fuel gauge to move but that means little to those who know how non-linear those old VW float gauges are. 

I'll probably keep messing with the steam system (not very scientific I admit) but I did make one change that seems to be an improvement.  I added a piece of copper scrub pad over the hot exhaust pipe to force the water to wet the pipe over a larger area.  This also lets me generate more steam.   I might even benefit from some catalysis.  To meter the water a little better, I've ordered a small peristaltic variable metering pump that runs on 12 VDC Ya-hoo ! ... I actually found one.

Some behavior accounts with respect to the steam, normal spark and water spark plug plasma spark:

1. no steam - engine speeds up and slows down when cycling normal / plasma spark - engine speeds with plasma on.

2. steam on / normal spark - engine slows

3. steam on / plasma spark on - engine speed faster than in #1

I've linked before and after pics of the copper 'wick' below:

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam6.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/wick.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: thermalenergy on November 28, 2008, 02:15:20 AM
Hi everyone,

I know it's not much but I just rolled over 101 miles in my test.  You have to rock the Bug to get the fuel gauge to move but that means little to those who know how non-linear those old VW float gauges are. 

I'll probably keep messing with the steam system (not very scientific I admit) but I did make one change that seems to be an improvement.  I added a piece of copper scrub pad over the hot exhaust pipe to force the water to wet the pipe over a larger area.  This also lets me generate more steam.   I might even benefit from some catalysis.  To meter the water a little better, I've ordered a small peristaltic variable metering pump that runs on 12 VDC Ya-hoo ! ... I actually found one.

Some behavior accounts with respect to the steam, normal spark and water spark plug plasma spark:

1. no steam - engine speeds up and slows down when cycling normal / plasma spark - engine speeds with plasma on.

2. steam on / normal spark - engine slows

3. steam on / plasma spark on - engine speed faster than in #1

I've linked before and after pics of the copper 'wick' below:

Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam6.jpg)
(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/wick.jpg)

Hi Greg,
I love your idea to use AC from the alternator instead of from an inverter. It is so simple. That way the intensity corresponds to the speed of the engine, and there's no 60 cycle dead zone. How do you get power to the unit while starting the engine, since the alternator is turning too slow to produce enough voltage? What about using an inverter connected through a relay to the starter, so that when the ignition key is in "start" the inverter supplies power, and when the key is in "run" the alternator supplies power. That way you have the best of both systems. Just a thought.
Joel
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 28, 2008, 03:23:58 AM
Hi Greg,
I love your idea to use AC from the alternator instead of from an inverter. It is so simple. That way the intensity corresponds to the speed of the engine, and there's no 60 cycle dead zone. How do you get power to the unit while starting the engine, since the alternator is turning too slow to produce enough voltage? What about using an inverter connected through a relay to the starter, so that when the ignition key is in "start" the inverter supplies power, and when the key is in "run" the alternator supplies power. That way you have the best of both systems. Just a thought.
Joel

Hi Joel,

I think you might have mistaken me for someone else.  I'm not using an alternator nor am I using a conventional inverter because my VexUs circuit kept blowing the inverters up.  Instead I'm using a two-transistor oscillator and a voltage multiplier.  The oscillator is sort of like an inverter though.

Sorry I can't lead you to the guy with the alternator.  I don't know.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: thermalenergy on November 28, 2008, 05:46:13 AM
Hi Joel,

I think you might have mistaken me for someone else.  I'm not using an alternator nor am I using a conventional inverter because my VexUs circuit kept blowing the inverters up.  Instead I'm using a two-transistor oscillator and a voltage multiplier.  The oscillator is sort of like an inverter though.

Sorry I can't lead you to the guy with the alternator.  I don't know.

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,
Thank you for the reply and for everything you, luc, ossie, and everyone else I forgot to mention is doing. I'm sorry but I just drew the wrong conclusion about the green wire I saw coming out of the back of the alternator. Just look at the first picture from Reply #2349. I'm ordering the parts to modify my geo metro now, but I think there could be a problem producing plasma at higher RPM's. How does your Vexus system compensate for increased power demand at higher RPM's? I thought you had fixed that problem by tapping the alternator to produce more power at higher RPM's. My goal is to eventually install the system in a 1987 Toyota MR2 with a 1.6 liter four cylinder engine with a factory redline of 7500 RPM's. That's why I'm concerned about losing power at high RPM's. I think you are right on the mark testing everything and gradually increasing the water, and the condition of the water,(steam). Liquid water is not very compressible, but steam compresses well, and mixes well with the air intake. How will you create the steam though, if your engine starts running cold? Sorry for the long post, but I think your design is the best one to use in a vehicle, so I think these problems are minor in comparison to those you have already overcome.
Thank You,
Joel
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 28, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
Hi thermalenergy,
 
Hi all friends,

I had the idea to take AC from the Alternaror
To tell you the true, didn't test it yet because of some difficult situations (weather, enough place and ect).

The point is that i thought that when the crankshaft makes one circle, the alternator makes 2,2 circles.
So , when the motor runs with 1100 rpm, the alternator makes 2420 rpm.
2420 r per minure (rpm) is 2420:60 per second = 40.33 r per second = 40,33Hz
This frequency is enough to drive a transformer from 12V AC to 220V AC.
Thats all...
The only question I have is, if there is any kind of damage (in this situation) to the head of piston , by long time working...
So, I really don't know (that is the reason i am looking for a second hand engine, to test it) if this strong flame on the spark, is enough to make any kind of damage to my (one and only) car.

I don't know... I like to learn...
Friend
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 28, 2008, 06:28:23 PM
Hi Greg,
Thank you for the reply and for everything you, luc, ossie, and everyone else I forgot to mention is doing. I'm sorry but I just drew the wrong conclusion about the green wire I saw coming out of the back of the alternator. Just look at the first picture from Reply #2349. I'm ordering the parts to modify my geo metro now, but I think there could be a problem producing plasma at higher RPM's. How does your Vexus system compensate for increased power demand at higher RPM's? I thought you had fixed that problem by tapping the alternator to produce more power at higher RPM's. My goal is to eventually install the system in a 1987 Toyota MR2 with a 1.6 liter four cylinder engine with a factory redline of 7500 RPM's. That's why I'm concerned about losing power at high RPM's. I think you are right on the mark testing everything and gradually increasing the water, and the condition of the water,(steam). Liquid water is not very compressible, but steam compresses well, and mixes well with the air intake. How will you create the steam though, if your engine starts running cold? Sorry for the long post, but I think your design is the best one to use in a vehicle, so I think these problems are minor in comparison to those you have already overcome.
Thank You,
Joel

Hi Joel,

I have thought about the possibility of running out of heat @ temperature to create steam.  I'm pretty sure I'll always have 100 deg C somewhere in the exhaust.  If the steam induction works then I'll consider a dedicated exhaust heat exchanger specifically for that purpose.  I'll tell you this, I added the copper sponge because after dripping in a single spot for a short while, that 'spot' became cooled off enough for the water to just drip and run off.

On power demand:  The way my system works is an oscillator runs a voltage multiplier.  The oscillator is designed to produce enough power for the maximum spark rate I expect.  I don't expect to run any higher than 4000 RPM.  So I designed for that.  My oscillator puts out 24 Watts of power at 200 VDC rectified and 400 VAC Peak to Peak.  The Oscillator runs a voltage multiplier that  outputs 400 VDC.  Doing some math you can choose the value of the 'dump' Cap such that it fully charges and discharges at the sparking  frequency for a 4-strroke, 4-cylinder engine running at 4000 RPM.  So you design for your max power.  You can also choose the appropriate current limiter (charge resistor R1) that fully charges the Cap but has minimal flow during the spark event (this would otherwise just pulls the oscillator and multiplier down). If the engine RPM rises above that design point then the voltage begins to sag a little.  So you can go too fast and begin to lose the intensity of the plasma spark.  If I stay between idle and 3500 RPM, my plasma voltage only varies between 350 VDC and 385 VDC.  You can only see this happening with a 'scope.

Anyway, that's it.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 28, 2008, 06:32:25 PM
Hi Greg,
Thank you for the reply and for everything you, luc, ossie, and everyone else I forgot to mention is doing. I'm sorry but I just drew the wrong conclusion about the green wire I saw coming out of the back of the alternator. Just look at the first picture from Reply #2349. I'm ordering the parts to modify my geo metro now, but I think there could be a problem producing plasma at higher RPM's. How does your Vexus system compensate for increased power demand at higher RPM's? I thought you had fixed that problem by tapping the alternator to produce more power at higher RPM's. My goal is to eventually install the system in a 1987 Toyota MR2 with a 1.6 liter four cylinder engine with a factory redline of 7500 RPM's. That's why I'm concerned about losing power at high RPM's. I think you are right on the mark testing everything and gradually increasing the water, and the condition of the water,(steam). Liquid water is not very compressible, but steam compresses well, and mixes well with the air intake. How will you create the steam though, if your engine starts running cold? Sorry for the long post, but I think your design is the best one to use in a vehicle, so I think these problems are minor in comparison to those you have already overcome.
Thank You,
Joel

Hi Joel,

I have thought about the possibility of running out of heat @ temperature to create steam.  I'm pretty sure I'll always have 100 deg C somewhere in the exhaust.  If the steam induction works then I'll consider a dedicated exhaust heat exchanger specifically for that purpose.  I'll tell you this, I added the copper sponge because after dripping in a single spot for a short while, that 'spot' became cooled off enough for the water to just drip and run off.

On power demand:  The way my system works is an oscillator runs a voltage multiplier.  The oscillator is designed to produce enough power for the maximum spark rate I expect.  I don't expect to run any higher than 4000 RPM.  So I designed for that.  My oscillator puts out 24 Watts of power at 200 VDC rectified and 400 VAC Peak to Peak.  The Oscillator runs a voltage multiplier that  outputs 400 VDC.  Doing some math you can choose the value of the 'dump' Cap such that it fully charges and discharges at the sparking  frequency for a 4-strroke, 4-cylinder engine running at 4000 RPM.  So you design for your max power.  You can also choose the appropriate current limiter (charge resistor R1) that fully charges the Cap but has minimal flow during the spark event (this would otherwise just pulls the oscillator and multiplier down). If the engine RPM rises above that design point then the voltage begins to sag a little.  So you can go too fast and begin to lose the intensity of the plasma spark.  If I stay between idle and 3500 RPM, my plasma voltage only varies between 350 VDC and 385 VDC.  You can only see this happening with a 'scope.

Anyway, that's it.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: thermalenergy on November 29, 2008, 07:31:15 AM
Hi thermalenergy,
 
Hi all friends,

I had the idea to take AC from the Alternaror
To tell you the true, didn't test it yet because of some difficult situations (weather, enough place and ect).

The point is that i thought that when the crankshaft makes one circle, the alternator makes 2,2 circles.
So , when the motor runs with 1100 rpm, the alternator makes 2420 rpm.
2420 r per minure (rpm) is 2420:60 per second = 40.33 r per second = 40,33Hz
This frequency is enough to drive a transformer from 12V AC to 220V AC.
Thats all...
The only question I have is, if there is any kind of damage (in this situation) to the head of piston , by long time working...
So, I really don't know (that is the reason i am looking for a second hand engine, to test it) if this strong flame on the spark, is enough to make any kind of damage to my (one and only) car.

I don't know... I like to learn...
Friend
Damianos

Hi Damianos,
thanks for straightening me out about the alternator tap idea. I think it's a great idea if tested cautiously. A limiting resistance, or light bulb, should keep the power down to a safe minimum. The question is, with a variable frequency AC input, would it need to have a variable capacitance also in order to work properly? Since we aren't using a magnetic plasma injectors, just resistorless spark plugs, I don't see how the tops of the pistons would be at risk from the plasma itself. I think the greater risk is from burning a lean mixture, without water, and causing detonation damage to the pistons. I still need to get all the part numbers, so I can order them. That mouser.com site seems to have some really low prices, if you know what you're looking for. Unfortunately I'm more of a mechanic than an electronic assembly person, so I can't make the cross-references in my head. Damianos, if you live anywhere near Vancouver WA I've got several engines you could work on.
Thanks, Joel
Title: Plasma Effect on Gasoline Vapour
Post by: revizal on November 29, 2008, 09:09:52 AM
Resending what I was write in energeticforum.com...

Hi All,
Today I tested the plasma effect on gasoline vapour. I made an apparatus that make me able to introduce plasma to gasoline vapour flow before burned. I used self pulsed DPDT relay to simulate engine RPM approx 30 Hz. This below the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zI9onSUgI

I got explotion and implotion effect on it. Hydrogen enrichment gas ? I donot know. May be someone in this forum could explain that ?

I tought plasma act as catalytic fuel reformer to produce H2 when burn gasoline vapour (seen as explotion effect). Later, I will introduce this system to my GEET genset to see the effect on RPM and we will see if it worked too on diesel fuel.

Thank you,

Revizal.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 29, 2008, 01:26:38 PM
Hi Damianos,
thanks for straightening me out about the alternator tap idea. I think it's a great idea if tested cautiously. A limiting resistance, or light bulb, should keep the power down to a safe minimum. The question is, with a variable frequency AC input, would it need to have a variable capacitance also in order to work properly? Since we aren't using a magnetic plasma injectors, just resistorless spark plugs, I don't see how the tops of the pistons would be at risk from the plasma itself. I think the greater risk is from burning a lean mixture, without water, and causing detonation damage to the pistons. I still need to get all the part numbers, so I can order them. That mouser.com site seems to have some really low prices, if you know what you're looking for. Unfortunately I'm more of a mechanic than an electronic assembly person, so I can't make the cross-references in my head. Damianos, if you live anywhere near Vancouver WA I've got several engines you could work on.
Thanks, Joel

Hi thermalenergy,

I also heve to thank you for your very very useful reply.
The truth is that if the primary 12V coil of the (12V ac to 220V ac) transformer,
having its special "output leveling inductance: Z=square [R2+(ωL)2]" ,
can stand altenator's 228Hz frequency AC power current (when the engine runs on 6200 rpm) without any burning problem,
then (i suppose) there is no need  to put any kind of resistance or bulb, because as you already know, any kind of circuit takes as much intensity (and power from the source) as it needs , and no more.
By the way i believe that praxis is better than theory, so i can't tell anything before the test.
My friend thermalenergy , thank you again for your very very useful, helpful and polite directions to find a second hand engine, but I live away in Greece (SouthEast Europe).
Anyway I have to thank you again for your help my friend.

Friend Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Johan_1955 on November 29, 2008, 01:34:30 PM
Good job people,

Only interested following from a small distance!

@ Revizal
Great Proof, maybe bit more water, think Papp.
The Ex- and Implosions (+ & - pressure) in resonance with the Piston / Crankshaft?

A for me very usable link: http://sportdevices.nmine.com/ignition/ignition.htm

Thanks all for sharing!
Johan
Title: Re: Plasma Effect on Gasoline Vapour
Post by: gotoluc on November 29, 2008, 04:43:23 PM
Resending what I was write in energeticforum.com...

Hi All,
Today I tested the plasma effect on gasoline vapour. I made an apparatus that make me able to introduce plasma to gasoline vapour flow before burned. I used self pulsed DPDT relay to simulate engine RPM approx 30 Hz. This below the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zI9onSUgI

I got explotion and implotion effect on it. Hydrogen enrichment gas ? I donot know. May be someone in this forum could explain that ?

I tought plasma act as catalytic fuel reformer to produce H2 when burn gasoline vapour (seen as explotion effect). Later, I will introduce this system to my GEET genset to see the effect on RPM and we will see if it worked too on diesel fuel.

Thank you,

Revizal.


WOW :o Revizal... excellent test setup idea ;) ... very interesting effect. It would be interesting if you could have the flame hit a piece of steel that would have a thermometer to see the differences in temperature. I would also like to see water steam introduced by a control valve so you can cut off and see the difference with or without it. If you try it, get a Y connector and have it as close to the plasma spark so it has no time to condensate. Maybe you can use the flame to create your steam, one drop at the time in a stainless container ;D

Great work ;) ... thanks for sharing   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 29, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Short report:

Hi all,

Well, I'm coming up on 300 miles in this test.  I've never gotten more than 25 MPG with in the '64 Bug.  It was rebuilt once to 1300CC from the stock 1200CC.  The factory spec in the owner's manual (actual original manual) says 31 MPG US ... that's with the stock 1200CC engine.  Nothing else is different other than the punch-out to 1300CC except I did put a centrifugal advance distributor on it  ... the original vacuum advance system failed and I couldn't get replacement parts. 

I'm looking forward to installing a real controllable water metering system though because the needle valve approach is fine but I can't adjust the water flow against the mass air flow (engine RPM).

I'll refill at 300 miles.  I'll also take a look at the spark plugs.

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 29, 2008, 06:44:39 PM
Short report:

Hi all,

Well, I'm coming up on 300 miles in this test.  I've never gotten more than 25 MPG with in the '64 Bug.  It was rebuilt once to 1300CC from the stock 1200CC.  The factory spec in the owner's manual (actual original manual) says 31 MPG US ... that's with the stock 1200CC engine.  Nothing else is different other than the punch-out to 1300CC except I did put a centrifugal advance distributor on it  ... the original vacuum advance system failed and I couldn't get replacement parts. 

I'm looking forward to installing a real controllable water metering system though because the needle valve approach is fine but I can't adjust the water flow against the mass air flow (engine RPM).

I'll refill at 300 miles.  I'll also take a look at the spark plugs.

Peace,

Greg



Hi my friend Greg,

I am really very happy with your result!
Congratulations my friend!

Your friend
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 29, 2008, 08:12:39 PM
Hi my friend Greg,

I am really very happy with your result!
Congratulations my friend!

Your friend
Damianos


Hi Dmianos,

I really appreciate your comments, but I don't have any results yet.  I will post preliminary test results today though.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 29, 2008, 09:02:25 PM
Hi Dmianos,

I really appreciate your comments, but I don't have any results yet.  I will post preliminary test results today though.

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,

Thank you for your answer...
I am here...

Your friend Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 29, 2008, 09:53:49 PM
TEST REPORT

Well ........

I completed my first test run.  I drove 300 miles.  65% of that was freeway miles at 55 MPH.  The rest was around town, stop and go, my guess is average about 20 MPH - 40 MPH.

I want to say that the factory hype for this vehicle with the stock 1200 CC engine was 31.5 MPG (U.S.).  I had the engine rebuilt - new jugs and pistons - which made it 1300 CC - a bigger engine with much more power - same carb as for the 1200 CC.

During the test I ran the Vexus Circuit with its own Oscillator and Voltage Multiplier (doubler).  I also made a water drip system that forced steam to be aspirated into the carburetor at a set rate (Bug-on-I-V).

I topped the tank off with 8.44 Gallons of regular gasoline.

Do the math.  Not only did we beat the factory estimate by 13% for the stock 1200 CC engine, we beat it with an even bigger, more powerful 1300 CC engine.  We also beat the best mileage I ever got on this engine by 43 %!

Spark Plugs:

I did NOT use new spark plugs for this test.  The plugs in it are the ones I've been using all along for the bench tests and Vexus Circuit development (in vehicle).  I have no real estimate of the 'abuse' miles on these plugs. 

I have included a photo of the #1 spark plug along side a new plug.  There HAS been wear, so this needs attention ... maybe a different electrode configuration.  The left hand plug is from the bug and gauges at 0.041" and the new plug gauges at 0.029".

This test has been conclusive on several fronts ... at least for me.


PLASMA  RULES !  !  !


Peace,

Greg

(http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/road_plug_1.jpg)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 29, 2008, 10:46:40 PM
Excellent news Greg ;D

Other then once again boosting the voltage and lowering the capacitance I don't know of another way to reduce plug wear. I think that's why Krupa decided to uses a superior alloy to prevent this.

Thanks for sharing your test results.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: thermalenergy on November 29, 2008, 10:52:53 PM
TEST REPORT

Well ........

I completed my first test run.  I drove 300 miles.  65% of that was freeway miles at 55 MPH.  The rest was around town, stop and go, my guess is average about 20 MPH - 40 MPH.

I want to say that the factory hype for this vehicle with the stock 1200 CC engine was 31.5 MPG (U.S.).  I had the engine rebuilt - new jugs and pistons - which made it 1300 CC - a bigger engine with much more power - same carb as for the 1200 CC.

During the test I ran the Vexus Circuit with its own Oscillator and Voltage Multiplier (doubler).  I also made a water drip system that forced steam to be aspirated into the carburetor at a set rate (Bug-on-I-V).

I topped the tank off with 8.44 Gallons of regular gasoline.

Do the math.  Not only did we beat the factory estimate by 13% for the stock 1200 CC engine, we beat it with an even bigger, more powerful 1300 CC engine.  We also beat the best mileage I ever got on this engine by 43 %!

Spark Plugs:

I did NOT use new spark plugs for this test.  The plugs in it are the ones I've been using all along for the bench tests and Vexus Circuit development (in vehicle).  I have no real estimate of the 'abuse' miles on these plugs. 

I have included a photo of the #1 spark plug along side a new plug.  There HAS been wear, so this needs attention ... maybe a different electrode configuration.  The left hand plug is from the bug and gauges at 0.041" and the new plug gauges at 0.029".

This test has been conclusive on several fronts ... at least for me.


PLASMA  RULES !  !  !


Peace,

Greg



Hi Greg,
Those results are an awesome confirmation of the plasma spark concept. Do you have any method of leaning out the gas-to-air mixture? I know re-jetting the carb is kind of a committment, but, you should be able to lean it down to at least 25-to-1 as long as you're adding enough water vapor to prevent pinging. I know of some cars that have a ping sensor, what if you used a ping sensor to determine your fuel mix and timing adjustments? A ping sensor would give you a scientific tool to use for adjustments, and could save your engine from a costly rebuild. Once again, thanks for all your hard work and your generous sharing of your results.
Joel
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on November 29, 2008, 11:10:23 PM
Greg,

Nice work !!.....How much of the mpg increase would you attribute to the water ?
Do you plan to do a test run with just plasma ignition to see how much mpg 's increase ?

Greg you are the man, ......ALL HAIL GREG !!!!!!.......

Thank you for sharing...

Regards ,

Jared
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on November 29, 2008, 11:11:31 PM
@Greg,

I was looking at your plug wear picture you just posted and noticed the J electrode looks like it is fatter then the new one ??? ... is this something that the camera shot is doing or is this real and the metal is transferring location?

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 29, 2008, 11:37:28 PM
@Greg,

I was looking at your plug wear picture you just posted and noticed the J electrode looks like it is fatter then the new one ??? ... is this something that the camera shot is doing or is this real and the metal is transferring location?

Thanks

Luc

Hi Luc,

I see what you're talking about.  I'll yank that plug and look.  I wasn't using flash so it's not an artifact.  They are the same make. 

While I was writing this I picked up two that were on the desk ... one from the photo and a second one.  One has more of a yellow zinc finish than the other, the printing is different, there's a tiny, teenie, itsy bitsy stamping on one of the flats (differeing from the other).  These are definitely from different production runs, maybe even different manufacturers / vendors.  The 'j' hook is fatter than the one I used in the picture.

Well, there ya' go ... manufacturing tolerances.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 30, 2008, 12:12:07 AM
Greg,

Nice work !!.....How much of the mpg increase would you attribute to the water ?
Do you plan to do a test run with just plasma ignition to see how much mpg 's increase ?

Greg you are the man, ......ALL HAIL GREG !!!!!!.......

Thank you for sharing...

Regards ,

Jared

Hi Jared,

It would only be prudent to explore this from all angles.  I needed first to determine if further exploration was worth further time and expense.  Well I got my answer. 

When I worked in industry (gas turbine research, manufacturing technologies, etc.) there was a quote painted on the wall in the research lab.  It read:

 "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

Well I got my test results and I think it's worth pursuing.

Answering a more specific question of yours about the the importance of the water: 

I think the steam  played a very important roll in increasing the thermal efficiency by lowering the overall combustion temperature, absorbing combustion energy and exchanging temperature for pressure with the steam.  But it does this without the regular 'stream penalty' because we are recouping waste heat to first change the water to steam thereby bypassing the heat of fusion penalty (a phase change penalty).  The steam now freely absorbs energy in the chamber, lowering the gas temperatures.  The expansion ratio has not changed because the compression ratio hasn't changed.  So we still expand the gas the same but instead of defining the thermal efficiency as temperature (t1 - t2) / t1, it is also correctly defined as  pressure (p1 - p2) / p1.  The engine is doing its thing at a lower temperature, thus rejecting LESS HEAT to cooling and related thermal losses.

This is what I think accounts for the increased fuel mileage ... increased thermal efficiency.

Thanks for asking.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on November 30, 2008, 03:20:47 PM
Hi my friend Greg,

Thank you again for sharing your results of your tests with us.

Friend
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on November 30, 2008, 04:37:52 PM
Hi Greg,
Those results are an awesome confirmation of the plasma spark concept. Do you have any method of leaning out the gas-to-air mixture? I know re-jetting the carb is kind of a committment, but, you should be able to lean it down to at least 25-to-1 as long as you're adding enough water vapor to prevent pinging. I know of some cars that have a ping sensor, what if you used a ping sensor to determine your fuel mix and timing adjustments? A ping sensor would give you a scientific tool to use for adjustments, and could save your engine from a costly rebuild. Once again, thanks for all your hard work and your generous sharing of your results.
Joel

Hi thermalenergy,

You are correct in that the next step should be to lean it out.  I'll get a blow up of the carb and see what's involved.  I've read that there are several 'sub systems' in these Solex carbs re secondary air screw to compensate for a characteristic rich running at higher RPM.  I'll have to sort through this I guess.  I have a hunch that the steam induction has caused some leaning effect already.  I am an instrumentation 'nut'  Too much leaning could damage the heads so I believe I should next install some thermocouples to monitor and document various engine temperatures.  I'll look into ping sensor practicality while researching the re-jetting issue. Thanks for your supporting comments.

If anyone knows any particulars regarding re-jetting a '64 Bug 1200 Carb, I'd appreciate any input. 

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on November 30, 2008, 10:44:32 PM
Hi all..!!

A man gave me an idea....

What about Wankel engines and plasma??
They have a smaller space for combustion compared to regular engines, and higher compressions. Also they have less kinetic things to move, and they are very low in weight.

Just a thought....

Regards,
Zissis!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 01, 2008, 12:23:54 AM
Hi all..!!

A man gave me an idea....

What about Wankel engines and plasma??
They have a smaller space for combustion compared to regular engines, and higher compressions. Also they have less kinetic things to move, and they are very low in weight.

Just a thought....

Regards,
Zissis!!

Hi Zis,

That's a very good idea.  I like "simple".

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 01, 2008, 02:28:05 AM
Microwave contains a small glass bottle filled with about 80ml of water. Microwaved for about 1:20, the bottle breaks and the superheated water flash boils to steam, blowing the door open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lYRaX2dBA
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on December 01, 2008, 03:31:56 AM
Hi Greg,
    Main jet place at bottom fo floding chamber, you need to take carb out and open 5-7 screw out and lift uptop part of carb up, you will see. this work only the time you have enough flow pass ventury, no matter low mid or hi rpm.
    Idal jet  at right side of carburator, and have adjust screw in left side of it, idal is not  use only at Idal, this use all the time that your maniflod pressure be vacumm, (if you hit paddle to the floor, on that time manifloe pressure  near atmospheric idal will stop inject. acc pump will inject to pump rpm up and main will work later, just a moment your maniflod vacumm will increase and idal will work again...) :o

   So most working jet is idal not main, even for cruising speed both idal and main are work togather. if you want to rejet to lean it very easy for idal jet, just tide adjustscrew in you will get abit leaner all part load work,   :)
   for full load you must do two parts, first for acc pump, solex use very simple linkage from trottle to press diaphram and they have adjustable stopper and spring, very easy to understand, more linkage press to diaphram means more fuel inject just adjust and see.  ;)second thing is mainjet have two way to do, 1. rejet, may be 5-10 no. less have effect for normal application. but it need to find tune and you must have a lot of jet on your home to exchange. so i recommend to second way. 2.rejet by wire, just yuse your small electric copper wire, put it in jet, if small copper wire 10 wire can insert in, then if you want to lean around 10% you just put 1 wire in and tide it into the plase and use as normal. 20% just 2 wire... so on.... then when you get close to enough, you will go to buy the real jet....  ;D

thank for your great sharing...

zzzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 01, 2008, 03:40:22 AM
Hi Greg,
    Main jet place at bottom fo floding chamber, you need to take carb out and open 5-7 screw out and lift uptop part of carb up, you will see. this work only the time you have enough flow pass ventury, no matter low mid or hi rpm.
    Idal jet  at right side of carburator, and have adjust screw in left side of it, idal is not  use only at Idal, this use all the time that your maniflod pressure be vacumm, (if you hit paddle to the floor, on that time manifloe pressure  near atmospheric idal will stop inject. acc pump will inject to pump rpm up and main will work later, just a moment your maniflod vacumm will increase and idal will work again...) :o

   So most working jet is idal not main, even for cruising speed both idal and main are work togather. if you want to rejet to lean it very easy for idal jet, just tide adjustscrew in you will get abit leaner all part load work,   :)
   for full load you must do two parts, first for acc pump, solex use very simple linkage from trottle to press diaphram and they have adjustable stopper and spring, very easy to understand, more linkage press to diaphram means more fuel inject just adjust and see.  ;)second thing is mainjet have two way to do, 1. rejet, may be 5-10 no. less have effect for normal application. but it need to find tune and you must have a lot of jet on your home to exchange. so i recommend to second way. 2.rejet by wire, just yuse your small electric copper wire, put it in jet, if small copper wire 10 wire can insert in, then if you want to lean around 10% you just put 1 wire in and tide it into the plase and use as normal. 20% just 2 wire... so on.... then when you get close to enough, you will go to buy the real jet....  ;D

thank for your great sharing...

zzzz

Hi zzzz,

WOW!  Thanks.  That is allot of good information and very good suggestions.  I never thought about the wire idea.  Fantastic !

Thank you zzzz.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on December 01, 2008, 07:31:08 AM
Dear Greg,
   Use wire just for testing and find the match size, after that change it with new jet, cuz you will got some via behavior from this, like rpm swing abit( just abit) cuz flow through jet is not constant, wire can move abit from engine shaking, i guess >:(.
   But it works, just some annoying, last three year I use this to reduces gasoline since i mix LPG with in my bug. (now 100% LPG )



   may I ask for your updating diagram again please. I can't solve invertor problem, this is the time for me to lern electronic.... :-[


   thanks,
zzzz
     
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on December 01, 2008, 09:42:23 AM
Hi Greg,

In my old racing days, I would solder the jet closed.  Then I would re drill the jet with a smaller drill to lean the mixture.  You can keep re drilling bigger.  Once right size found, buy factory new jet.  If you are careful and use sharp drill bits, the soldered jets work pretty good and you can leave them in.

Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 01, 2008, 04:56:43 PM
Hi Greg,

In my old racing days, I would solder the jet closed.  Then I would re drill the jet with a smaller drill to lean the mixture.  You can keep re drilling bigger.  Once right size found, buy factory new jet.  If you are careful and use sharp drill bits, the soldered jets work pretty good and you can leave them in.

Chris

Thanks Chris,

I'm getting some great suggestions (like yours) from the experienced crowd.  I love it.


On another note:
I usually drove my bug daily in the vicinity of my shop just to keep things moving.  I probably put about 100 - 150 miles (long stretches) on it during the VexUs development before I took the 300 mile (over 3 days) test drive.  Well the poor thing has developed quite an oil leak (no surprise) and it's likely from the seals on the oil cooler ... oozing from there.  So instead of the next series of tests, it's going to be pulling the engine and finding the leak(s).  Between that and regular work, it's going to be a while before I can post anything new ... boo - hoo.

Thanks for listening.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 01, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
Hi Greg,

In my old racing days, I would solder the jet closed.  Then I would re drill the jet with a smaller drill to lean the mixture.  You can keep re drilling bigger.  Once right size found, buy factory new jet.  If you are careful and use sharp drill bits, the soldered jets work pretty good and you can leave them in.

Chris

Great suggestion Chris ;)

Since the jets are made of brass regular plumbing solder will work.

I love it! cheap and simple ;D

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whizwheel on December 01, 2008, 06:06:38 PM
Hi Folks,

In my hyper-mileing days, I lean dropped the float.  That is setting the float about 1/8" lower than the specs said.  I didn't try it on the Solex carb. as the one I worked on was the 60's Opel and was a customer's.  In lean dropping the float, the fuel has to be lifted higher up the fuel tube to the venturi tube and would therefore be a bit less, causing it to be leaner and better atomized.

Also, as a side idea, I used to use something to catch the air blown by the fan and duct it into the air cleaner, (of course seal all the holes in the air filter housing) and boost my fuel economy and power.  I am not sure how it could be done with the steam setup Greg is using, but I noticed the outlet on each side of the blower housing and it would be tempting for me to try it.  Anything that increases the volumetric efficiency helps.

I am also wondering about the exhaust temp and leaning the mixture.  I think I remember you stating the exhaust temp was cooler by about 200 degrees.  So it will be interesting to see what you find with the thermocouples.

When I flew high performance airplanes, we had to monitor the egt to make sure we didn't over lean the engine.  Of course at altitude it brings in a whole other realm of engine control.  Back then it was all done without computers and we had to constantly scan the gauges.

Cheers,
Rog
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on December 01, 2008, 08:20:36 PM
@All,

Here's a very informative lecture on voltage multiplier's....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lPvL-JLV0Y


Aloha,

Jared
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 02, 2008, 01:19:29 AM
@All,

Here's a very informative lecture on voltage multiplier's....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lPvL-JLV0Y


Aloha,

Jared

Good one Jared ;) ... it's very simple to understand with his drawing ;D

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on December 02, 2008, 03:26:44 AM
@All;

Another very interesting site ...

http://www.smartplugs.com/fuels/aqueousfuels.htm


Best Regards,

Jared
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: thermalenergy on December 02, 2008, 05:44:21 PM
Thanks Chris,

I'm getting some great suggestions (like yours) from the experienced crowd.  I love it.


On another note:
I usually drove my bug daily in the vicinity of my shop just to keep things moving.  I probably put about 100 - 150 miles (long stretches) on it during the VexUs development before I took the 300 mile (over 3 days) test drive.  Well the poor thing has developed quite an oil leak (no surprise) and it's likely from the seals on the oil cooler ... oozing from there.  So instead of the next series of tests, it's going to be pulling the engine and finding the leak(s).  Between that and regular work, it's going to be a while before I can post anything new ... boo - hoo.

Thanks for listening.  Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,
I'm sorry to hear about your oil leak. I have an idea for you that could fix several problems at once. What about eliminating the cooler altogether? Instead, connect the oil lines to a copper-tubing-within-tubing intercooler/superheater using water as the coolant. You could preheat your water at the same time as you cool off your oil. A win-win situation, yes? That way you could always get some heat from the engine no matter how cold it runs, since the oil will heat up from the friction alone. I also thought maybe if you used a refrigerant expansion valve to turn the hot water to steam it would give you greater control and adjustability. I have some used valves from a scrapped out multiuser heat pump system that I could send you for free if you like. I know water boils under a vacuum. I think refrigerant valves are an easy way to control it.
Your friend in open-Source development,
Joel
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: grahamsa on December 02, 2008, 07:47:47 PM
hi greg

thanks a lot for all your great work with the VEXUS ciruit. i am currently sourcing all the components to replicate your setup. living in south africa it is a bit difficult to get all the parts you have, but im getting there!

i have some questions that i would be over the moon if you could answer for me!

- with regards to your voltage multiplier, when u use 8 caps, is that a doubler or quad?
also, in the photo there are two diodes between the caps, but they are not shown in your diagram?

- the power resistor you use...if i cannot find one, is a light bulb a suitable substitute?

- the CDI cap you use looks like a microwave oven cap, but will a standard alluminium electrolytic cap of the same specs also work?

- and finally, must all the resistors in the ocsillator be 5 Watt or greater?

i am sorry for the barrage of questions! but parts are expensive over here and i want to try and get i right first time. dunno how often that happens!

good luck with the bug!

many thanks

graham
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 02, 2008, 08:32:33 PM
hi greg

thanks a lot for all your great work with the VEXUS ciruit. i am currently sourcing all the components to replicate your setup. living in south africa it is a bit difficult to get all the parts you have, but im getting there!

i have some questions that i would be over the moon if you could answer for me!

- with regards to your voltage multiplier, when u use 8 caps, is that a doubler or quad?
also, in the photo there are two diodes between the caps, but they are not shown in your diagram?

- the power resistor you use...if i cannot find one, is a light bulb a suitable substitute?

- the CDI cap you use looks like a microwave oven cap, but will a standard alluminium electrolytic cap of the same specs also work?

- and finally, must all the resistors in the ocsillator be 5 Watt or greater?

i am sorry for the barrage of questions! but parts are expensive over here and i want to try and get i right first time. dunno how often that happens!

good luck with the bug!

many thanks

graham


Hi Graham,

First thanks for your comments ... you're welcome. 

Here is your information:

The 8 caps are 2 groups of four in parallel ... for capacity only.  I could not find 'big' high voltage caps.  They are 100 uF x 410 VDC.  It is a doubler.

Yes a bulb will work ... use 30 or 40 Watt ... bigger is a waste of energy ... too big and it will just arc continuously.

You may use aluminum electrolyte caps ... BUT ... if you do, they can't cycle full charge / discharge like oil filled caps so.  If you use (for example) a 3 uF CDI Cap that is rated at 400 VDC, using just one will get very hot and fail.  So, you must increase the cycling capacity by using 4 of them.  Two sets of caps in series, then those two groups in parallel.  This makes a 3 uF x 800 VDC Cap.  To be even safer ... triple it.   Three sets of three caps in series wired in parallel.  I think this makes a 3 uF x 1200 VDC.  Monitor the heat and see.

I made mine ALL 5 Watt.  For a twelve volt input system I would not go smaller.  Technically, the 180 Ohm resistors need only be 2 Watt.  I didn't like that.  They felt like they got too hot, but they didn't fail ... still I built with 5 Watt.

Be safe with high voltage.  Good luck.  Happy building.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: grahamsa on December 03, 2008, 07:32:07 AM
jees greg, thanks for the excellent info! that has put me on my way! gona get the stuff today and get the show on the road!

you are the master!

cheers

graham
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 03, 2008, 08:29:01 AM
Hi everyone,

I started a new topic on a very simple resonant circuit I put together. If anyone is interested the topic is located here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6225.0

Thank you all

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 04, 2008, 03:11:08 AM
jees greg, thanks for the excellent info! that has put me on my way! gona get the stuff today and get the show on the road!

you are the master!

cheers

graham

Hi again Graham,

Use the smaller choice for the transformer.  I ended up with 10,000 uF x 16 VDC cap pairs on my oscillator.   I used a 115 VAC x 10 VAC (series connected - w / center tap) 2.4 Amps.  It works great for my 4-cylinder.  It is very tempting to overkill and end up going nowhere.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on December 04, 2008, 02:07:05 PM
Daniel Dingle's Water Car Secret Formula is about to be released.
He is funded by korean car company Daewoo


http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/19610/20634/daewoo-European-water-p\
ower-car.phtml

Daewoo helps European "water power" car

Water motoring myth lives on


2 December 2008 12:12 GMT / By Adam Vaughan

A European company claims it's been joined by Korean car-maker Daewoo to produce
a "water-powered" car. Swiss firm Ethos says it will have a prototype built
December 2008 in partnership with Daewoo, with a mass production version
arriving in 2009.

The company says it uses a new method to split water into hydrogen and oxygen.
"The technology was there in 1968", argues Ethos CEO Peter Aldred. "With the
advent of new technologies, even more efficient ways of disassociating water
molecules have now been discovered".

Previous water power cars have been debunked. Water car proponents have
suggested a method to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, either using a
battery and electrolysis or metal hydrides. The hydrogen and oxygen are then
recombined, either in a fuel cell for a chemical reaction that creates
electricity (similar to the Honda FCX), or by burning the hydrogen in a
combustion engine (much like the BMW Hydrogen 7).

There's just one problem with both solutions. They require energy to split the
water in the first place, and that energy could be used more efficiently to
directly power the car.

Earlier this year Reuters reported on a Japanese water-powered car based on the
same design as G-Wiz, the Genepax. A production version of the car failed to
materialise.

Related links

http://www.ethoseu.com/




http://www.dinglefoundation.com/index.php
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Viev on December 05, 2008, 10:18:15 PM
Hi all

my first test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLqkTsMHbPE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 06, 2008, 12:10:16 AM
Hi all

my first test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLqkTsMHbPE

Hi Viev,

looks 8) good ;D

Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on December 09, 2008, 08:08:34 AM
upup
so quiet... >:(   ;D

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 09, 2008, 06:52:04 PM
upup
so quiet... >:(   ;D



Hi zzzz,

you know what they say... it's always quiet before a major storm ;D

Not to worry! it will be busy soon enough ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Chris31 on December 09, 2008, 06:57:47 PM

Hi zzzz,

you know what they say... it's always quiet before a major storm ;D

Not to worry! it will be busy soon enough ;)

Luc

You have surprises for us then? ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 09, 2008, 08:46:23 PM
You have surprises for us then? ;)

Hi Chris,

I'm hoping this new research topic I started:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6225.0  will come back and help power this topic ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on December 09, 2008, 11:23:21 PM
Luc I am jealous!!  ;D

I have also started a topic which concerns to ultrasonic humidifiers and if we can make one ourselves.

topic's adress: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6279.0




zis....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 09, 2008, 11:39:27 PM
Hi Chris,

I'm hoping this new research topic I started:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6225.0  will come back and help power this topic ;)

Luc

Hi Luc,

I've pull the Bug's engine because one of the cast magnesium tabe that hold the oil cooler to the block busted and I have an enormous oil leak.  I'm doing surgery ... glad I have a machine shop.

I'm also building a new oscillator that has lower energy quiescence that should make folks happier.  Someone from here or Energetic posted it.

I'm going to open one of the heat boxes and wrap the some copper tubing around the exhaust line to preheat the steam water.  on Energetic I posted one possible explanation for my good mileage.  Here it is:

"I recuperate waste heat by turning water into steam. By doing this, I avoid the conversion penalty associated with the 'heat of fusion' ... that is the heat a substance, in this case water, absorbs before it changes state, in this case water to steam. This heat energy can't be recovered with a condenser ... it is therefore a penalty ... the 'steam penalty'. But I do this external to the process with (otherwise) waste heat. With the steam (gas) combined with the air and fuel, ignition occurs (thanks to the intense plasma spark) and the combustion heats up 'both' the steam and the air, but the steam is like an inert component that can absorb allot of energy. So it does and generates pressure in exchange. The pressure from both the air/fuel and the steam is about the same as it would be by just the air/fuel itself because it at a lower temperature. This is where the increase in thermal efficiency comes in ... it is a system thing:
The pressure ratio (compression ratio) is the same. The efficiency of the energy extraction (power stroke) is thus the same (p1-p2)/p1 ... if the ending pressure p2 is much, much less than the starting pressure p1, then the efficiency is high (that's why a high compression engine is efficient). The same is said for temperature (t1-t2)/t1. But what does this do for us? Well - the engine runs cooler with more energy being converted to output power because FAR, FAR less heat is being rejected from cooling the engine.

In my tests, after the engine warms up, you can place any cold plate at the exhaust and the condensation is about 3 - 4 times the amount of water as usual. The EGT is also cooler by at least 200 Deg F. But you don't get consistent running unless you use a plasma spark. I can run so much water (in the form of steam) that the normal spark will misfire. There is some inherent fuel/air leaning going on here also. If I aspirate the steam after the venturi, then the fuel/air ratio won't be affected ...this is my next step. BUT YOU NEED A PLASMA SPARK TO DO THIS."

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 10, 2008, 02:00:20 AM
Luc I am jealous!!  ;D

I have also started a topic which concerns to ultrasonic humidifiers and if we can make one ourselves.

topic's adress: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6279.0

zis....

Hi zis,

I maybe wrong but I think using steam or super heated steam should theoretically work better with the Plasma spark as waters dialectic properties change with temperature. For those who have experimented with HHO electrolyzer cells will tell you the cell behaves much different when it is hot (more current can go through) and can quickly get out of control if the temperature keeps rising.

Greg is also reporting very good results using steam vapor in his engine.

The other factor to consider is that it is at no cost of energy to create steam in a combustion engine. As a matter a fact the electric radiator fan would work less if you were extracting steam off the engine and should show some power savings there. Using ultrasonic foggers would add energy consumption since they use much current for the work they do.

Nothing wrong with experimenting with them ;) and I'm looking forward to your findings.

Thanks for your research time and sharing :) since it is all these details that will pave the better path.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 10, 2008, 02:39:48 AM
Hi Luc,

I've pull the Bug's engine because one of the cast magnesium tabe that hold the oil cooler to the block busted and I have an enormous oil leak.  I'm doing surgery ... glad I have a machine shop.

I'm also building a new oscillator that has lower energy quiescence that should make folks happier.  Someone from here or Energetic posted it.

I'm going to open one of the heat boxes and wrap the some copper tubing around the exhaust line to preheat the steam water.  on Energetic I posted one possible explanation for my good mileage.  Here it is:

"I recuperate waste heat by turning water into steam. By doing this, I avoid the conversion penalty associated with the 'heat of fusion' ... that is the heat a substance, in this case water, absorbs before it changes state, in this case water to steam. This heat energy can't be recovered with a condenser ... it is therefore a penalty ... the 'steam penalty'. But I do this external to the process with (otherwise) waste heat. With the steam (gas) combined with the air and fuel, ignition occurs (thanks to the intense plasma spark) and the combustion heats up 'both' the steam and the air, but the steam is like an inert component that can absorb allot of energy. So it does and generates pressure in exchange. The pressure from both the air/fuel and the steam is about the same as it would be by just the air/fuel itself because it at a lower temperature. This is where the increase in thermal efficiency comes in ... it is a system thing:
The pressure ratio (compression ratio) is the same. The efficiency of the energy extraction (power stroke) is thus the same (p1-p2)/p1 ... if the ending pressure p2 is much, much less than the starting pressure p1, then the efficiency is high (that's why a high compression engine is efficient). The same is said for temperature (t1-t2)/t1. But what does this do for us? Well - the engine runs cooler with more energy being converted to output power because FAR, FAR less heat is being rejected from cooling the engine.

In my tests, after the engine warms up, you can place any cold plate at the exhaust and the condensation is about 3 - 4 times the amount of water as usual. The EGT is also cooler by at least 200 Deg F. But you don't get consistent running unless you use a plasma spark. I can run so much water (in the form of steam) that the normal spark will misfire. There is some inherent fuel/air leaning going on here also. If I aspirate the steam after the venturi, then the fuel/air ratio won't be affected ...this is my next step. BUT YOU NEED A PLASMA SPARK TO DO THIS."

Greg

Hi Greg,

thank you for the update and all this most amazing research, development and implementation you have done to date. I'm looking forward to the next stage tests after your repairs ;)

Over a year ago I did a test using just one side of my vehicles V6 exhaust pipe, just where the pipe connects to the manifold I coiled 1/4" copper tube around a 8" section and the wrapped fiberglass insulation over it. I did this the day before a trip from Canada to Texas to experiment with adding supper hot steam to the engines intake to see if it would help with fuel economy. to make a long story short, It did not work since I had not thought out the drip system trough. When I returned from the trip I took it apart to find the copper tube had completely disinegrated :o.

I'm telling you this true event since you mentioned using copper pipe on your exhaust. I know it is easy to work with but it may not last long so, I would recommend you use maybe brake line tube if you can find some that can bend to your liking or the best would be bendable stainless tube if you can find some on eBay or somewhere.

All the best to you and your setup to come.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 10, 2008, 03:18:44 AM
Hi Greg,

thank you for the update and all this most amazing research, development and implementation you have done to date. I'm looking forward to the next stage tests after your repairs ;)

Over a year ago I did a test using just one side of my vehicles V6 exhaust pipe, just where the pipe connects to the manifold I coiled 1/4" copper tube around a 8" section and the wrapped fiberglass insulation over it. I did this the day before a trip from Canada to Texas to experiment with adding supper hot steam to the engines intake to see if it would help with fuel economy. to make a long story short, It did not work since I had not thought out the drip system trough. When I returned from the trip I took it apart to find the copper tube had completely disinegrated :o.

I'm telling you this true event since you mentioned using copper pipe on your exhaust. I know it is easy to work with but it may not last long so, I would recommend you use maybe brake line tube if you can find some that can bend to your liking or the best would be bendable stainless tube if you can find some on eBay or somewhere.

All the best to you and your setup to come.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Thanks for the 'heads up' !  I'll use stainless.  I WAS going to use copper and had no idea it would disintegrate.  Thanks,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on December 12, 2008, 10:13:24 AM
hi, Greg,
   when engine down, this is a good opptunity to modify your cyl head,
I found this man, Mr.Sing, and his method, that very match with vw head, this method is groove...
Vw head have alot of squid area to quench intake out to spark tips, but it always have remaining hc. that make vw engine can't boost up compression ratio too much... >:(

factory maybe 7.5 to 7.8 :1 that too low for now. at first i rise up to 9.5:1 with out groove, engine knock very bad, i can't use it daily, after i can't solve this problem , i start to search about cyl head, and i found groove, then i did to my bug and increase more cr to 11:1...+ new camshaft+groove.

bug become a monster ;D,
more powerfull, it seem like you drove v8 muscle car. but have oil leak, so i put a gasket to seal barrel then the cr drop down to 10.5 , after that i use  this set up for 10,000 km before lub oil problem, that make lifter and cam fail , so i re-setup the enging again by reduces cr for supercharger but not done yet.... now engine use all standard parts except 9.2:1 cr head with groove.i use it until now, nearly two years, no supercharge as wish, because now power is more than enough. ;D

so for me,
groove is prove themself that it can solve knock problem for vw high cr head. and it work great with lpg fuel and normal gasoline. another side effect is fuel consumption significantly reduces. driver harder faster(110-130km/hr on hiway) but i paid for fuel less 10-15% compare with 7.8:1 cr...

first pic 10.5:1
second pic 9.2:1

I will try to finish Vexus as soon before supercharge project. 8)

just sharing some exp...

regard,
zzzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on December 12, 2008, 10:35:21 AM
Daniel Dingel patent

http://www.google.com/patents?id=7xGfAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Daniel+Dingel#PPA1,M1
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 12, 2008, 05:28:05 PM
hi, Greg,
   when engine down, this is a good opptunity to modify your cyl head,
I found this man, Mr.Sing, and his method, that very match with vw head, this method is groove...
Vw head have alot of squid area to quench intake out to spark tips, but it always have remaining hc. that make vw engine can't boost up compression ratio too much... >:(

factory maybe 7.5 to 7.8 :1 that too low for now. at first i rise up to 9.5:1 with out groove, engine knock very bad, i can't use it daily, after i can't solve this problem , i start to search about cyl head, and i found groove, then i did to my bug and increase more cr to 11:1...+ new camshaft+groove.

bug become a monster ;D,
more powerfull, it seem like you drove v8 muscle car. but have oil leak, so i put a gasket to seal barrel then the cr drop down to 10.5 , after that i use  this set up for 10,000 km before lub oil problem, that make lifter and cam fail , so i re-setup the enging again by reduces cr for supercharger but not done yet.... now engine use all standard parts except 9.2:1 cr head with groove.i use it until now, nearly two years, no supercharge as wish, because now power is more than enough. ;D

so for me,
groove is prove themself that it can solve knock problem for vw high cr head. and it work great with lpg fuel and normal gasoline. another side effect is fuel consumption significantly reduces. driver harder faster(110-130km/hr on hiway) but i paid for fuel less 10-15% compare with 7.8:1 cr...

first pic 10.5:1
second pic 9.2:1

I will try to finish Vexus as soon before supercharge project. 8)

just sharing some exp...

regard,
zzzz

Hi zzzz,

Thanks for the input.  The compression ratio is around 7:1 for the stock engine.  My engine was rebuilt to 1285cc from 1200cc so it's higher because the head is the same.  I don't think there are any spacers ... maybe there are.

The groove is a great idea.  I didn't know this was done. Thanks for you suggestion.  Right now I'm trying to fix the broken oil cooler mount so I can test again.

Peace,

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 12, 2008, 05:38:21 PM
Hi zzzz,

thank you for taking the time to share all this information and the pictures to see the work ;)

Excellent sharing my friend.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on December 12, 2008, 08:15:15 PM
Hello All,

This may be helpful for some using carbuerators, there are 5 different jet setting's just by turning a dial...

http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm

Aloha,

Jared
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 13, 2008, 01:56:58 AM
Hi everyone,

This deals with a clever little inverter / oscillator posted by pmonk on Energetic Forum - ' Water Spark Plug'  thread.  The following was posted to Energetic.  This may be of value to some.   The 220 Ohm resistors, Caps and PNP transistors have been replaced with different parts - below.  Link to schematic:

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/better.jpg

" Ok, I am satisfied enough with the oscillator to replace my present 'power hog' with the new one. After putting in the 50 Ohm base resistors the frequency is 80 Hz at 14.0 Vdc. It is 97 Hz @ 16 Vdc and 78.9 Hz @ 12.72 Vdc. The oscillator freq. is voltage sensitive to a degree, but not bad at all. It consumes 50 Watts of power to produce 40 Watts @ 155 Vrms. This is acceptable for sure. I compute 40 Watts required to run the VexUs circuit at 3000 RPM, 4-cyl., 350 VDC CDI Cap Charge / Discharge. I hope the Voltage Multiplier performs accordingly.

So 50 Watts plus the quiescent power of 8.4 Watts, < 60 Watts is fairly good for such a primitive circuit with such a low part count.

I will still cool the Transistors and the Transformer in this circuit.

2ea 12K Ohm x 2W resistors
2ea 50 Ohm x 5W resistors
2ea 1uF x 250Vdc electrolytic caps
2ea 2N3055 transistors
2ea MJ2955 transistors
2ea heat sinks (for the 3055's)
1ea 24VA 115VAC x 10VAC w / Center Tap or equiv.
2ea 1.5" x 1.5" 12 VDC chassis fans for cooling. "

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 13, 2008, 07:03:29 AM
Thanks Greg for building, testing and sharing the results of this new schematic ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 13, 2008, 04:52:40 PM
Thanks Greg for building, testing and sharing the results of this new schematic ;)

Luc

Hi Luc,

You're welcome.  I just wish I was back to testing.  I can continue with the power hog inverter i have now, but I can't run my headlights too ... alternator gets WAY HOT.  I never intended to try and understand inverters and power supplies, but it seems the VexUs circuit blows up CMOS and Micro-based consumer inverters, but not dumb old NPN transistor-based oscillators.  Altering the VexUs circuit itself may end up diminishing its effectiveness to perform. 

Many of the OU and 'strange' systems have weird operational characteristics that account for their effectiveness.  Conventional science and engineering eagerly sends 'spikes to ground', puts in buffers, resistors and other junk that literally 'kills dead' any and all benefit.  So I persevere.

Onward and upward,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 13, 2008, 05:24:15 PM
Hi Luc,

You're welcome.  I just wish I was back to testing.  I can continue with the power hog inverter i have now, but I can't run my headlights too ... alternator gets WAY HOT.  I never intended to try and understand inverters and power supplies, but it seems the VexUs circuit blows up CMOS and Micro-based consumer inverters, but not dumb old NPN transistor-based oscillators.  Altering the VexUs circuit itself may end up diminishing its effectiveness to perform. 

Many of the OU and 'strange' systems have weird operational characteristics that account for their effectiveness.  Conventional science and engineering eagerly sends 'spikes to ground', puts in buffers, resistors and other junk that literally 'kills dead' any and all benefit.  So I persevere.

Onward and upward,

Greg

Hi Greg,

thank you once again for posting this valuable information. This shows us there is something at work here that we don't understand or even know about. It is trying to come out but our minds only know of what we have been taught :-\  and we possibly cannot see it as a usefull effect. I am happy and thankful for you putting in so much time and to also see you are open to other possibilities.

I am hopeful that one of us will be able to go beyond and tame this beast ;D

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 15, 2008, 01:57:53 AM
Hi everyone,

Just posting the oscillator / inverter on the board.

Thanks all for your participation.  This thing is quite efficient given the type of circuit and components.

Thanks again pmonk from Energetic Forum for posting this to begin with.

Peace,

Greg

New and better Oscillator without cooling - free space for two fans for the transformer & 3055 transistors - link:

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/better_inv.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 15, 2008, 09:45:07 PM
power-end caps

Hi everyone,

I added my two cooling fans. Those things are very electrically noisy. Because of this I noticed that the Oscillator / Inverter is sensitive to noise on the power supply. So I added 2000 uF across the 12 VDC 'at' the board and it mostly went away. I'll use more on the final installation. I also did a 'short' test and the circuit handles that just fine ... one minute short on the output and the transistors stayed cool.

So, make sure your input power lines are "quiet" or there might be an effect on the circuitry.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AhuraMazda on December 17, 2008, 02:53:06 AM
I hope it is not too late but here is a good book on plasma
http://coulombe-group.mcgill.ca/Coulombe_group/Plasma_Engineering_(CHEE_543)_files/arc_plasma_2008.pdf
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 18, 2008, 03:12:41 AM
new video - efficient oscillator

Hi everyone,

video showing new oscillator running VexUs circuit with very low current draw.

find here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBcSph922rY

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: electronz on December 19, 2008, 12:44:29 AM
Hello Greg!
I am new here and are impressed with your work and like to build a vexus circuit with your oscillator. I am not into electronic so i need a circuit drawing or something like it. Could you please post a drawing on your circuit with all needed components?

Regz,
Electronz














new video - efficient oscillator

Hi everyone,

video showing new oscillator running VexUs circuit with very low current draw.

find here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBcSph922rY

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 19, 2008, 08:23:55 PM
Hello Greg!
I am new here and are impressed with your work and like to build a vexus circuit with your oscillator. I am not into electronic so i need a circuit drawing or something like it. Could you please post a drawing on your circuit with all needed components?

Regz,
Electronz

Hi Regz,

The circuit diagram and a complete parts list has been posted here recently.  If you go back a few pages, you'll find them.  Let me know if you have no luck finding.  Right now I'm trying to get time to finish fixing the oil leak in the Bug so I can resume testing.

The result of a successful inverter/oscillator is a high voltage output device ... more than 420 VAC Peak-Peak and more than 500 VDC with the voltage doubler hooked up, so you have to be very careful.

I'll try and put everything in one post soon.

Thanks,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greenb420 on December 20, 2008, 01:42:14 AM
To all that have and have not posted. To all that Have tried and failed and have not posted. You are the inspiration that people need and want. I have followed this thread since, (I think page 50 before the change in numbers in the forum). I have never posted and this is my first, but I am sure that just like me, there are others that experiment because of this forum and don't post. Mainly because its easier to fail 50 times than to keep posting that 50 times of failure. I am currently working on a completely new design of an engine that will work to provide electricity with water. A water powered generator. There was a post in here with an engine design that works in a circular  motion instead of a up and down with the piston. I believe that, That design would be perfect with the water powered spark plug. Kinda like a bike with different gears that keeps going. When I can provide a pic of the round engine, I will,,,, Its still in progress. But I believe this would allow minimum force to continue motion to the engine. I have been working on it the past 2-3 months. With the economy the way it is,, I eat every other day but believe this  plasma spark plug is worth it. With Greg and Xbox and everyone else working on improving the design of the spark, I believe I can get an engine to work with its optimum potential and energy with water only. This post is just meant to spark the idea that there are way way way more people learning and experimenting than posting. Kinda like me, I like to get things working maybe 50% before I post, but when I do, we can take all the knowledge from the plasma and apply it to a different design of an engine. Thanks to all that post and experiment, You in my opinion, is the work of humans, to create, destroy, rebuild, and evolve.


Greenb420
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 20, 2008, 02:32:13 AM

Wow, thats great news greenb,

I know the people on this forum have inspired me...I just wish I had more of a technical background, and didn't have so many balls in the air.

The forum stats reflect many non posters viewing, so I knew there had to be people like you looking in.

I don't think it will be long before something big beaks here...with all the constructive ideas and innovations being discussed currently.

As far as lateral thinking goes, I haven't seen such a diverse assortment of fertile minds gathered in one place on the net.

To me it feels like there are very exciting times ahead for this forum.

Regards...

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Nihilanth on December 20, 2008, 06:59:38 AM
I recently tried showing one of my friends a video of a water sparkplug (namely this one: YouTube - Water spark plug)

"im pretty sure its just inductive kickback or that the resistance of the coil is ignored because the current goes through the diodes instead"

What do I say to this?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 21, 2008, 12:27:04 AM
firestorm spark plug replication on VexUs circuit

Hi all,

Here is a short video showing a Firestorm spark plug replication running on the VexUs circuit.

find at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BYubd_7RHY

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ECK H20 on December 21, 2008, 01:52:03 AM
Hi  to everyone. this is my first post. I am studying this thread from september and i am in the process to transform a B&S  3 hp in GEET and maybe, after transforming the standard ignition with plasma . My goal is to modify my Jetta 2001 with plasma ignition, but i have to learn vexus circuit. It will be hard for me to understand this circuit since i know nothing about electronic.
I want to happiness everyone for your remarkable job you do on the plexus and vexus circuit. Another thing i want to say, it's wonderful how, all of you, are polite, respectfull, always ready to help and share. I say, to all of you, thank you very much and i wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year.
Sorry for my poor english, i am a french canadian. I hope you understand me.
Jean-Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Neoerg on December 21, 2008, 03:32:00 AM
Maybe this is a little off topic but I just had a thought.... What if you connected one of these plasma makers up to a tesla turbine but instead of a spark plug use the plates themselves as the electrodes?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 22, 2008, 12:58:14 AM
@Greenb420, thank you for sharing your work in progress. I'm also sure an alternative engine technology will work better with the plasma and water then the piston engine. Good luck and please do keep us posted.

@Cap-Z-ro for sharing your positive comments towards the group of devoted developers that have made all this possible.

@Nihilanth, don't worry what others think or try to explain. If you feel there is value with what is demonstrated here, then pursue it!... if not the World will stay as it is.

Thank you all for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 22, 2008, 01:02:00 AM
firestorm spark plug replication on VexUs circuit

Hi all,

Here is a short video showing a Firestorm spark plug replication running on the VexUs circuit.

find at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BYubd_7RHY

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,

excellent  ;).... what... no water spray ;D

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 22, 2008, 01:38:14 AM
Hi  to everyone. this is my first post. I am studying this thread from september and i am in the process to transform a B&S  3 hp in GEET and maybe, after transforming the standard ignition with plasma . My goal is to modify my Jetta 2001 with plasma ignition, but i have to learn vexus circuit. It will be hard for me to understand this circuit since i know nothing about electronic.
I want to happiness everyone for your remarkable job you do on the plexus and vexus circuit. Another thing i want to say, it's wonderful how, all of you, are polite, respectfull, always ready to help and share. I say, to all of you, thank you very much and i wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year.
Sorry for my poor english, i am a french canadian. I hope you understand me.
Jean-Luc

Bonjour Jean-Luc,

thank you for your interest in the plasma water spark and for posting your positive comments.

I am also French Canadian from Ottawa. Your English is good and we can understand all your message.

If you can wait a little more time (after Greg's testing) hopefully our friend Groundloop can make an illustrative diagram that would be easier for anyone to understand. It will have a parts list and I may do a video tutorial on how to put the circuit together.

The original idea of sharing this technology is a priority and as soon as the top developer (Greg) on road tests has been done and he is satisfied with the stability of components, power consumption and output of the new power supply for the Vexus circuit I'm sure he would love for us to share it with everyone.

Please stay tuned for this information or go ahead if you feel you can build it.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 22, 2008, 01:44:24 AM
Maybe this is a little off topic but I just had a thought.... What if you connected one of these plasma makers up to a tesla turbine but instead of a spark plug use the plates themselves as the electrodes?

Hi Neoerg,

all ideas have value and I thank you for sharing yours. Unfortunately we cannot test all of them unless we had for example: a Tesla turbine 

However if you do have one I would encourage you to test it!... as you never know what you can find until you try.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ECK H20 on December 22, 2008, 02:49:18 AM
To Luc. Thank you Luc, for sure i will stay tuned.
Title: Plasma Oscilator Based worked on Motorbike
Post by: revizal on December 22, 2008, 04:47:34 AM
Hi Everyone, (re-write my posting on energeticforum.com)

I just tested above Oscilator on my motorbike (Yamaha Mio 113 cc). It worked good both supply 12 Volt DC from an adaptor and directly from bike's battery. No heat found on transformer anymore but little warm on 2N3055 transistors (still not a problem).

This below is the video link posted on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ee5egcnbz8

Thanks,

Rev.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 22, 2008, 05:57:19 AM
Hi revizal,

great job on the power supply circuit ;) and great video demo as always.

Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 22, 2008, 02:22:01 PM
I recently tried showing one of my friends a video of a water sparkplug (namely this one: YouTube - Water spark plug)

"im pretty sure its just inductive kickback or that the resistance of the coil is ignored because the current goes through the diodes instead"

What do I say to this?

Hi Nihilanth,

user name: smw1998a of the Energetic Forum has studied the effects of the Water Power circuit many months ago. He has taken the time to answer you question with much details. I am including the information here also.

Thanks smw1998a for taking the time to share ;)

Luc


Hello Everybody.
The standard “Kettering” type ignition coil supplies 12-14v through the primary winding of the coil while the points are closed, this creates a strong magnetic field in the core of the coil, when the points open and current is abruptly removed from the primary winding, the field collapses and generates voltages in the region of 250v to 350v. It is the voltage of the collapsing field that is transformed in the secondary winding of the coil up to 100 times.

The water spark plug circuit provides the 300v or so that is needed in the primary winding directly from the capacitor. The spark frequency is now dependent on your ability to charge the capacitor rather than waiting the minimum 4 to 6 m/s for the magnetic field to build in the core. At higher frequencies the coil just hasn’t the time it needs to charge the field sufficiently before the points open causing the field to collapse. At higher frequencies the points themselves become unreliable, floating when they should be closing. This was the reason for the development of the capacitor discharge ignition system used in practically all modern vehicles today.

Back to the water sparkplug circuit. It may appear that all we have done is taken an inductive ignition coil and converted it to a CDI ignition coil. This is true, but there is much more to it. Without the HV diode you have a basic CDI ignition. But the inclusion of the HV diode does two things.

One: Once the arc has formed across the gap, there now exists a direct low resistance path to ground for the remaining energy in the capacitor via the HV diode and the arc. As a practical example of the effect, charge a photo flash capacitor to 280v or so, then short it out with a piece of copper (making sure you are insulated and at arms length). See and hear anything familiar? A bright flash and loud crack….

Two: Once the energy stored in the capacitor has shorted to ground, in an instant, via the arc, there is no more energy available to the primary winding to sustain the arc and everything comes to an abrupt stop. There is very little back EMF (10v or so over 50uS) as the coil had very little time and energy to create a magnetic field in it’s core. Just a disruptive capacitor discharge across an arc.

IMO, Environmental, radiant, negative or vacuum energy has no part in this process. However, the energy of the discharge when combined with water may be greater than the sum of it’s parts. Unfortunately, I’m unable to measure with any accuracy but my observation and experimental experience would suggest that there is something more with the addition of water.

Regards To You All Lee….
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on December 22, 2008, 03:12:33 PM
          The impedance of the secondary is a hell of alot higher than the resistance of the preconditioned spark gap.  The capacitor therefore discharges through the gap at an ionizing intensity. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 22, 2008, 07:02:03 PM
          The impedance of the secondary is a hell of alot higher than the resistance of the preconditioned spark gap.  The capacitor therefore discharges through the gap at an ionizing intensity. 

Hi sparks,

Thanks for posting that brief and concise account of what is happening.  I totally agree with this analysis of everything culminating as the capacitor "... discharges through the gap at an ionizing intensity."

Best to you,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 23, 2008, 02:05:08 AM
@everyone,

below is a continuation of user smw1998a

I'm posting it here for your reading.

Luc


The Vexus Circuit. Pros and Cons
Hello All,

Before I continue, I would just like to say that the following post is based on my understanding of the effect and the application of the Vexus variant of the Water Sparkplug circuit. Advantages and disadvantages as I see them. And is no way an attempt to impugn anybodies efforts applying this technology. In fact, I have spent many hours catching up on posts and I am amazed at the progress made and technical solutions to problems identified along the way.

Vexus and the original circuit both disruptively discharge capacitors across an arc created by a HT coil. The only difference is Vexus uses a storage capacitor specific to this purpose where the original circuit used the capacitor that also provided the energy source for the primary winding of the ignition coil.

There was a post aimed at me about spark duration. (I have been inactive for several months) The spark duration of an inductive ignition coil is around 120uS to 140uS (micro seconds). This is true whether you inductively charge the coil as designed with points and condenser or in my circuit dumping 300v across the primary from a 4uf capacitor (without the HV diode). I’m not sure, but I think modern CDI is around 60uS because the coils are constructed differently.

Anyway, the addition of the HV diode in my circuit reduced the spark duration from 140uS to 10uS. Not because of the plasma in the discharge, but because the energy stored in the capacitor discharging across the primary winding went short circuit via the HV diode the instant the arc formed. Thus, creating the plasma effect and instantly robbing the primary winding of all power and terminating the arc.

IMHO this was the advantage of the original circuit. The abrupt end to the arc allowing me to produce the effect with very little stored power. The problem with increasing the stored energy or capacitance was that only so much of it shorted across the arc. If the duration of the arc ends before the energy in the capacitor is spent, you get a curve at the bottom of the vertical discharge trace at around 50v. This is the remaining, stored energy bleeding off via the resistance of the primary winding. I considered this wasted energy. If you have energy on your capacitor after the disruptive discharge, it is wasted (this may not apply to the Vexus circuit).

It is the stored energy of the capacitor shorted across the arc that produces the effect. The more energy you can dump across that arc the more violent the effect. For bench purposes the lower the capacitance and the higher the voltage, the higher the frequency and the shorter the spark time. It all leads to some interesting effects. But this is not what is required for the ICE.

The advantages of the Vexus circuit are clear. It offers an almost bolt on or piggy back approach to implementing the circuit in a vehicle. This can only be a good thing but there are drawbacks. The spark duration will be that of the normal ignition system. It may SEEM to require greater capacitance to produce the effect but the more energy you dump across the arc the greater the wear on the plugs and distributor (unless you dump directly across the plugs). As the spark duration could be up to 14 times greater than the original circuit, Increasing the capacitance even further could be possible at the risk of very rapid plug wear.
There is a conundrum here. A greater effect can be produced with less power using the original single, low value capacitor circuit. Less energy will be required from the charge pump, higher frequencies and less wear at the plugs. Difficult to implement or piggy back onto a standard ignition system.

The Vexus circuit is easier implement but larger capacitance and longer spark duration create more wear on the plugs and require beefy charge pumps. There will have to be a trade off with the Vexus circuit between a powerful effect and plug wear. Capacitance need only be great enough to prove beneficial to fuel consumption and running. Too much capacitance and circuit supply, reliability and plug wear will reduce the gains of the system.


I would like to take this opportunity to wish all good health and success for the new year.

Kindest Regards Lee….
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bwb on December 23, 2008, 06:23:37 AM
@everyone,

below is a continuation of user smw1998a

I'm posting it here for your reading.

Luc


The Vexus Circuit. Pros and Cons
Hello All,

There was a post aimed at me about spark duration. (I have been inactive for several months) The spark duration of an inductive ignition coil is around 120uS to 140uS (micro seconds). This is true whether you inductively charge the coil as designed with points and condenser or in my circuit dumping 300v across the primary from a 4uf capacitor (without the HV diode). I’m not sure, but I think modern CDI is around 60uS because the coils are constructed differently.

Anyway, the addition of the HV diode in my circuit reduced the spark duration from 140uS to 10uS. Not because of the plasma in the discharge, but because the energy stored in the capacitor discharging across the primary winding went short circuit via the HV diode the instant the arc formed. Thus, creating the plasma effect and instantly robbing the primary winding of all power and terminating the arc.

At everyone
I have thought about using a longer Spark Duration coil to keep the plasma alive longer? Would this be possible ? You can get longer Spark Duration coils for just about anything at Summit.350 us 400 uS  1.5 mS and more in spark duration.Is this a waste of time? link is below.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=coil&N=700+115&Nao=0&Ntk=KeywordSearch#rstop
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 23, 2008, 04:22:10 PM
At everyone
I have thought about using a longer Spark Duration coil to keep the plasma alive longer? Would this be possible ? You can get longer Spark Duration coils for just about anything at Summit.350 us 400 uS  1.5 mS and more in spark duration.Is this a waste of time? link is below.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=coil&N=700+115&Nao=0&Ntk=KeywordSearch#rstop


Hi bwb,

I think extending the Plasma side of the spark will come at a large energy cost (at this time) and Greg has been working hard as it is to bring his Vexus circuit down to a reasonable level.

If my resonance test work proves to be successful it could be directly applied to extend the plasma but we may need a better alloy for the plugs if we want it to last.

Anyone please do correct me if I am wrong here.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Plasma Oscilator Based worked on SUV
Post by: revizal on December 24, 2008, 06:21:25 AM
re-post from energeticforum.com.

All,

Today I tried to connect above oscilator-inverter to get plasma effect on my SUV. Here below is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2M8AkGg0Jo

I used it together with fuel vaporizer and homemade kiker wires. Basically it worked OK with some concern. I thought my diodes string got some cross talk between its. When I increase RPM near to 1500, the engine look like unsteady. But when it reach 2000 RPM or more, the engine runs smooth. And bad insulation of my kiker wires make distorsion to car audio.
Need more adjustment on it.

Rev.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on December 24, 2008, 02:36:36 PM
Hi everyone!!

I want first to congratulate everyone who keeps on experimenting, and feeding this topic with progress!!
Well done to all those (like revisal, greg and all others) who keep working on.!!

In a couple of days I am leaving Athens, to go at my home-village for christmas vacation. There I am going to try the plasma circuit on this 2-stroke engine.:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2913305802_44d7d100fd_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2912448743_ecd2ff1892_b.jpg
It's 35cc 40:1 gas:oil ratio. Sorry but I haven't found a working 4-stroke yet.... Anyway, I am going to try several fuel combinations on it. First to see if with the plasma ignition reduces emissions. Next to try a bit of water mixed with oil and gasoline. After that, maybe I am going to try automotive diesel, or heating petrol. Check emissions in each combination.

I will keep you all posted by 31 Dec 2008 when I come back.
That's all for now,

If you have any suggestions to try on, please let me know.!!

Greetings and Merry Christmas to all,
Zissis,
Greece
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 25, 2008, 07:45:25 PM
Hello Zissis,

thank you for letting us know of your test plans ;)

I wish you all the best and look forward to your results.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on December 28, 2008, 05:07:38 PM
Hello everybody..!!

I found a dial-up connection in a cafe at my home-village and I am writing my results form some tests so far.

So....
I finally installed the plasma VexUs (with ballast alternation) at my 2 stroke 35cc engine. It has an electronic ignition giving negative spark so Diode3 is required to work. As the D3 was missing nothing would work. High Voltage blocking diodes are 10x 1N5408 + 10x 1N5408 to let more amperage pass through. Anyway, you can find some more details in the following video.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1soHSdFYTc

Notice the increase in RPM when the plasma is on.(the bulb glows) and then decrease when plasma goes off. Diodes get a little worm, so does 50μF capacitors. I have meassured the ballast and bulb resistance and it was 20Ω. The wall outlet is 230V AC = 316 DC. Diode 3 is 1N4004, blocking the low voltage close a circuit inside the electronic ignition coil. The fuel is regular 2-stroke 40:1 gas:oil mixture. I have not tried adding water yet.
Here is the plasma spark with the plug outside the engine.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qb2mTT-6wg

I used an old sparkplug where the two tips were too close and after 10 minutes of running the tips melted so the engine stopped.!! See a picture.:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3143679315_8d33f4b1b0_b.jpg

Here are more pictures you might find interesting.:

Diode3 can be seen at the upper left of the HV - balck cable:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/3144513026_b26d5d2751_b.jpg

Circuit and engine all assembled together:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/3143703869_b511e099cd_b.jpg

More updates to come....
Thank you,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 28, 2008, 10:31:55 PM
My friend Zissis,

you have done an amazing job and video demonstrations with an excellent informative post that is well documented with pictures of your setup also. You are an example to the World and I thank you for doing such great work and sharing with the World.

Thank you for making the efforts of going to a internet cafe just to share your work.

May you have success in what ever you do for 2009 and the years to come.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: electronz on December 28, 2008, 10:41:10 PM
Hi Greg!
I saw your Firestorm sparkplugs and i wonder how you made them? Are they a prototype or can you use them in an engine without wearing them out very fast?
Regs, electronz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on December 29, 2008, 04:27:16 AM
Hi Greg!
I saw your Firestorm sparkplugs and i wonder how you made them? Are they a prototype or can you use them in an engine without wearing them out very fast?
Regs, electronz

Hi electronz,

The plugs were made by a gentleman named Robin David.  They were supplied for me to test the VexUs circuit on and to determine any performance enhancements to compliment past vehicle water spark plug tests.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: multiuser on December 30, 2008, 02:41:35 PM
hi @ all!

wow, nice works!

what is the last standing from your works?
is there a running motor with only water?
whats the best curcit for the plasmaspark?
where can i get the curcit?

ciao from austria
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on December 30, 2008, 06:13:53 PM
Hi everybody,

Luc, thank you for the encouraging comments. I really appreciate them!! I wish you a creative and successive year too.!! Not only you, everyone in the forum.!!


I am back to Athens today because of the weather being too bad, and couldn't stay more....

Yesterday was the second day of testings.
When I started the engine, after 10 minutes of continued working on idle, 3 capacitors of the 50μF capacitor bank, got too hot that they were blown up..!!
As this was not too much, I got this problem.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBa3tfq_MS0

I don't know what to do.
Now it's a deal that i can't do anything because of the weather, but.... what's going on??

Thanks.. Zissis!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on December 30, 2008, 06:51:52 PM
Hi everybody,

Luc, thank you for the encouraging comments. I really appreciate them!! I wish you a creative and successive year too.!! Not only you, everyone in the forum.!!


I am back to Athens today because of the weather being too bad, and couldn't stay more....

Yesterday was the second day of testings.
When I started the engine, after 10 minutes of continued working on idle, 3 capacitors of the 50μF capacitor bank, got too hot that they were blown up..!!
As this was not too much, I got this problem.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBa3tfq_MS0

I don't know what to do.
Now it's a deal that i can't do anything because of the weather, but.... what's going on??

Thanks.. Zissis!!

   You may have shorted out the mag.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on December 30, 2008, 09:45:13 PM
   You may have shorted out the mag.

Hi sparks!!

mag - > you mean the magneto?!

How?? When i don't connect anything to the High voltage output, it works fine, even in very high RPM. But if i attach a single wire, it stops!!
With the diode on the High voltage side, there is no closing circuit inside the magneto. So, how could it be shorted out??

Do you think that i need a new magneto??

Thanks for the response!!
Zis!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on December 31, 2008, 02:23:48 AM
     sorry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on December 31, 2008, 03:58:43 AM
Hi everybody,

Luc, thank you for the encouraging comments. I really appreciate them!! I wish you a creative and successive year too.!! Not only you, everyone in the forum.!!


I am back to Athens today because of the weather being too bad, and couldn't stay more....

Yesterday was the second day of testings.
When I started the engine, after 10 minutes of continued working on idle, 3 capacitors of the 50μF capacitor bank, got too hot that they were blown up..!!
As this was not too much, I got this problem.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBa3tfq_MS0

I don't know what to do.
Now it's a deal that i can't do anything because of the weather, but.... what's going on??

Thanks.. Zissis!!

Hello Zissis,

I think user name: sparks maybe partially right :'( ... your magneto coil wire inside the the magneto may have overheated and now has a small internal short so it may have less power then before but maybe just enough to jump the spark plug gap :-\.... but when you introduce any wire (dipole) it loses a little strength and can no longer jump the gap :( and motor stops.

We all have stories about blowing capacitors, inverters and diodes... welcome to the club ;)... we don't understand all that is happening in these circuits so all we can do is experiment and learn as we go.

I would not recommend to test on a good engine unless you don't care what happen to the engine. It is best to create a simulation at different RPM like Greg and Mike have done and then on the engine if successful. 

Sorry for your possible loss of magneto coil.

Thank you for sharing your results

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on December 31, 2008, 07:52:32 AM
Hello Zissis,

I think user name: sparks maybe partially right :'( ... your magneto coil wire inside the the magneto may have overheated and now has a small internal short so it may have less power then before but maybe just enough to jump the spark plug gap :-\.... but when you introduce any wire (dipole) it loses a little strength and can no longer jump the gap :( and motor stops.

maybe you are right guys. But I don't think that I observed any heat on the magneto (coil). Anyway thank you. I am now awaiting of Santa to bring me a brand new 4stroke 6hp for just 130 euros. It is cheap because it is no named.
Thanks for your advice though..!!!!

Quote
We all have stories about blowing capacitors, inverters and diodes... welcome to the club ;)... we don't understand all that is happening in these circuits so all we can do is experiment and learn as we go.

I know.... Now I know why Greg uses High Voltage AC capacitors ;)
By the way, I found one: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/3153141684_8b72f6a193_b.jpg
But it's 1μF. 2100V AC. When I shake him I can hear some liquid inside, so maybe it's electrolytic. 1μF is so small I think. I am going to find some more of them and build up as much capacitance as I can.

Quote
I would not recommend to test on a good engine unless you don't care what happen to the engine. It is best to create a simulation at different RPM like Greg and Mike have done and then on the engine if successful. 

Sorry for your possible loss of magneto coil.

Thank you for sharing your results

Luc


Don't need to worry about the magneto.... It's very cheap and easy to change....
I know I should do a simulation first but I thought that it was not so important....

Anyway thanks for every advice and comment..!!
Keep posting and sharing!!

Regards,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 01, 2009, 12:50:23 AM
maybe you are right guys. But I don't think that I observed any heat on the magneto (coil). Anyway thank you. I am now awaiting of Santa to bring me a brand new 4stroke 6hp for just 130 euros. It is cheap because it is no named.
Thanks for your advice though..!!!!

I know.... Now I know why Greg uses High Voltage AC capacitors ;)
By the way, I found one: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/3153141684_8b72f6a193_b.jpg
But it's 1μF. 2100V AC. When I shake him I can hear some liquid inside, so maybe it's electrolytic. 1μF is so small I think. I am going to find some more of them and build up as much capacitance as I can.

Don't need to worry about the magneto.... It's very cheap and easy to change....
I know I should do a simulation first but I thought that it was not so important....

Anyway thanks for every advice and comment..!!
Keep posting and sharing!!

Regards,
Zissis

Hi Zis,

I'm using a 1uF cap in my circuit now.  With the new oscillator and also a voltage doubler I have 350 VDC at full speed (frequency) and that's the one running with the replicated Firestorm spark plug.  So if your voltage is high, the cap can be small.  Test with it.

Happy New Year.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on January 01, 2009, 02:27:10 PM
Hello everybody..!!

I found a dial-up connection in a cafe at my home-village and I am writing my results form some tests so far.

So....
I finally installed the plasma VexUs (with ballast alternation) at my 2 stroke 35cc engine. It has an electronic ignition giving negative spark so Diode3 is required to work. As the D3 was missing nothing would work. High Voltage blocking diodes are 10x 1N5408 + 10x 1N5408 to let more amperage pass through. Anyway, you can find some more details in the following video.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1soHSdFYTc

Notice the increase in RPM when the plasma is on.(the bulb glows) and then decrease when plasma goes off. Diodes get a little worm, so does 50μF capacitors. I have meassured the ballast and bulb resistance and it was 20Ω. The wall outlet is 230V AC = 316 DC. Diode 3 is 1N4004, blocking the low voltage close a circuit inside the electronic ignition coil. The fuel is regular 2-stroke 40:1 gas:oil mixture. I have not tried adding water yet.
Here is the plasma spark with the plug outside the engine.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qb2mTT-6wg

I used an old sparkplug where the two tips were too close and after 10 minutes of running the tips melted so the engine stopped.!! See a picture.:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3143679315_8d33f4b1b0_b.jpg

Here are more pictures you might find interesting.:

Diode3 can be seen at the upper left of the HV - balck cable:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/3144513026_b26d5d2751_b.jpg

Circuit and engine all assembled together:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/3143703869_b511e099cd_b.jpg

More updates to come....
Thank you,
Zissis


Hi Zissis!

Congratulations, you really made a great job!
Keep on testing and working...
I wish you to test it on a four stroke engine also!
I send you my best greetings
and I wish you a happy new year!
congratulatios again my boy!

your friend
Damianos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 01, 2009, 03:07:38 PM
Hello everybody..!!

I found a dial-up connection in a cafe at my home-village and I am writing my results form some tests so far.

So....
I finally installed the plasma VexUs (with ballast alternation) at my 2 stroke 35cc engine. It has an electronic ignition giving negative spark so Diode3 is required to work. As the D3 was missing nothing would work. High Voltage blocking diodes are 10x 1N5408 + 10x 1N5408 to let more amperage pass through. Anyway, you can find some more details in the following video.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1soHSdFYTc

Notice the increase in RPM when the plasma is on.(the bulb glows) and then decrease when plasma goes off. Diodes get a little worm, so does 50μF capacitors. I have meassured the ballast and bulb resistance and it was 20Ω. The wall outlet is 230V AC = 316 DC. Diode 3 is 1N4004, blocking the low voltage close a circuit inside the electronic ignition coil. The fuel is regular 2-stroke 40:1 gas:oil mixture. I have not tried adding water yet.
Here is the plasma spark with the plug outside the engine.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qb2mTT-6wg

I used an old sparkplug where the two tips were too close and after 10 minutes of running the tips melted so the engine stopped.!! See a picture.:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3143679315_8d33f4b1b0_b.jpg

Here are more pictures you might find interesting.:

Diode3 can be seen at the upper left of the HV - balck cable:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/3144513026_b26d5d2751_b.jpg

Circuit and engine all assembled together:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/3143703869_b511e099cd_b.jpg

More updates to come....
Thank you,
Zissis


Hi Zis,

Fantastic video showing 'more power', engine RPM increase, less fumes!  Plasma spark plug concept is truly valid.

Thanks for sharing.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 01, 2009, 09:09:23 PM
Hi Damianos..!!

Thank you very much..!!

Hi Greg!!

Thank you very much too!!
Yes!! Less fumes, and they smell Just a little bit..!!  (bear in mind that is 2-stroke and there is oil inside the fuel)

One of these days I am going to buy a four stroke just to test plasma and water.!!
I have thought of attaching a transistor at the 12V output of these coils (usually used for the engine's kill switch) and use it to trigger the TIP 122 and then trigger an automotive BIG coil pretty much like yours. And there the plasma circuit.
Also HV capacitor after the resistor, and all the rest, as is.... We 'll see

Just like guys on this video did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3NE8P0sPS8&feature=related
This is a video posted on the energetic forum with a lawnmower on plasma. Very good too!!

These all for now....
Thanks for the responses,

Happy new year too,
Zissis,
Greece
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 02, 2009, 11:07:15 PM
Happy New Year everyone,

The Bug is whole again ... finally!  I will be reinstalling the VexUs circuit with its new oscillator.  Also I have begun documenting the physical dimensions of the firestorm spark plugs so that I can detect any wear.  I'll post the photos and other data both on Energetic and OverUnity.

The oil leak 'fix' was challenging just because.  What I did seemed to work though.

I know it's off topic but I posted some pics of the task:

Peace,

Greg

oil cooler ready to remove
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler0.jpg

broken mounting tab still on cooler
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler1.jpg

tab and block
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler2.jpg

cut off remaining (old original) mounting tab
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler8.jpg

fix-it mounting plate
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler3.jpg

screw heads for metal filled epoxy to grab on to
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler4.jpg

fix-it plate mounted ... see the screw heads
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler5.jpg

metal filled epoxy stuffed into damaged area
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler6.jpg

epoxy filed and cleared for cooler mounting stud and nut
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler7.jpg

ta da  done and ready for cooler and seals, shroud, alternator, distributor, carburetor ... whew!
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler9.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 03, 2009, 01:39:18 AM
Excellent repair solution Greg ;D

Thanks for taking the time to post all the pictures of the repair ;)

Looking forward to the 2009 tests using the new HV Power supply and the Firestorm style plugs.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 03, 2009, 07:09:51 AM
Happy New Year everyone,

The Bug is whole again ... finally!  I will be reinstalling the VexUs circuit with its new oscillator.  Also I have begun documenting the physical dimensions of the firestorm spark plugs so that I can detect any wear.  I'll post the photos and other data both on Energetic and OverUnity.

The oil leak 'fix' was challenging just because.  What I did seemed to work though.

I know it's off topic but I posted some pics of the task:

Peace,

Greg

oil cooler ready to remove
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler0.jpg

broken mounting tab still on cooler
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler1.jpg

tab and block
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler2.jpg

cut off remaining (old original) mounting tab
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler8.jpg

fix-it mounting plate
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler3.jpg

screw heads for metal filled epoxy to grab on to
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler4.jpg

fix-it plate mounted ... see the screw heads
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler5.jpg

metal filled epoxy stuffed into damaged area
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler6.jpg

epoxy filed and cleared for cooler mounting stud and nut
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler7.jpg

ta da  done and ready for cooler and seals, shroud, alternator, distributor, carburetor ... whew!
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/cooler9.jpg

Hello Greg!!

Excellent work.! well done.!
I really like it. I also love this boxer engine too..!!

Nice results..... The bug is back!!

Keep on for the oscillator and the plugs.
Thanks for sharing

Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 03, 2009, 01:00:12 PM
Hello every one...!!

I am really very happy today because,
I have just purchased the small yellow lady, just to test plasma (VeXus)!!!!

Here I have the photos, take a look.:

Photo No 1 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/3162174477_2789ecef05_b.jpg)
Photo No 2 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3162999970_cb0aca6aae_b.jpg)
Photo No 3 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3124/3162168571_a40354d26e_b.jpg)
Photo No 4 (the sparkplug is down there....) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/3163008972_2a02565ebd_b.jpg)

Engine Description I found on the internet:

Model  A168F-1
Certificates  EPA, ISO:9001:2000 passed
Type: Single cylinder, 4-stroke air-cooled, OHV, gasoline engine
Bore x stroke(mm x mm): 68x54
Displacement(ml): 196
Compression ratio: 8.5:1
Rated output power(HP/rpm): 5.7/3600
Max output power(HP/rpm): 6.5/4000
Max torque(N-m/rpm): 13.2/2500
Ignition system: T.C.I
Spark plug: E6TC
Fuel type: Unlead gasoline
Fuel tank capacity(L): 3.6
Fuel consumption(g/KW/h): 400
Oil capacity(L): 0.6
Lube oil type  SAE 15W-40SE or higher
Starting system: Recoil starter
Speed adjusting mode: Centrifugal weight mode
Lubricating mode: Splashing
Air cleaner: Semi-dry, Oil bath, Dual, Silent, Cyclone
Overall dimension(LxWxH)(mm): 395x340x360 
Net weight(kgs): 15
Gross weight(kgs): 16
20FT volume  594
40FT volume  1200

So what about ignition now....
Take a look at those pictures.:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/3162170779_7edd3c9a86_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/3163005522_e54d662616_b.jpg

It says that it has T.C.I. ignition.
If someone knows anything about this kind I would appreciate it if he could help. We want to get 12volt pulses from somewhere in order to trigger a transistor (TIP 122) and then an external automotive coil.

There is some voltage 1-2 volts between black and yellow(earth) cables when i pull the rope.... but i think that this couldn't offer something.

Thats all for now,
Updates to come.....

Thanks,
Zissis


P.S.: Everybody, this small engine needs a name.... What is your propose??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on January 03, 2009, 01:09:58 PM
hope
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on January 03, 2009, 04:11:56 PM
First of all,
I wish you a happy new year ,my friends...

Hi Zisis,

Very good engine!
I think Sparky is also
a good name for her...

Thanks
Damainos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 03, 2009, 07:28:25 PM
Hi Zissis,

thank you for sharing your new test engine ;)

She looks very good in Yellow ;D... maybe you can call her Goldie

I wish you success in your 2009 tests

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 03, 2009, 10:58:56 PM
Hi Zissis,

thank you for sharing your new test engine ;)

She looks very good in Yellow ;D... maybe you can call her Goldie

I wish you success in your 2009 tests

Luc

Hi Luc....

The purpose of buying her was just to test and share....
Thank you very much my friend....

By the way.... I have just tied up the yellow caps. I had opened them in order to find the coils inside.
Only one coil just like the other coil on the 2-stroke. The small bronze box is for the oil level safety valve.
The black wire seems to give some voltage, so it may be used to trigger a transistor using an external battery and an external coil.
Here is a couple of pictures, nothing special....:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/3163491557_6df232ae73_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/3164328562_ff8cf3494a_b.jpg

That's all for now....
More updates soon....

P.S.: About the name, I prefer.: "the VexUs Sparky" if Greg agrees....

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 04, 2009, 12:00:09 AM
Hi Luc....

The purpose of buying her was just to test and share....
Thank you very much my friend....

By the way.... I have just tied up the yellow caps. I had opened them in order to find the coils inside.
Only one coil just like the other coil on the 2-stroke. The small bronze box is for the oil level safety valve.
The black wire seems to give some voltage, so it may be used to trigger a transistor using an external battery and an external coil.
Here is a couple of pictures, nothing special....:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/3163491557_6df232ae73_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/3164328562_ff8cf3494a_b.jpg

That's all for now....
More updates soon....

P.S.: About the name, I prefer.: "the VexUs Sparky" if Greg agrees....



Humm... Sparky is good but is not so female... would you consider "VexUs Shakti"... Shakti is know as the female attribute of God and is the energizing spark found in all living things. It is also known as Chi.

What ever you feel is right :)... this is just a suggestion.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 04, 2009, 02:03:32 AM
Hi Luc....

The purpose of buying her was just to test and share....
Thank you very much my friend....

By the way.... I have just tied up the yellow caps. I had opened them in order to find the coils inside.
Only one coil just like the other coil on the 2-stroke. The small bronze box is for the oil level safety valve.
The black wire seems to give some voltage, so it may be used to trigger a transistor using an external battery and an external coil.
Here is a couple of pictures, nothing special....:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/3163491557_6df232ae73_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/3164328562_ff8cf3494a_b.jpg

That's all for now....
More updates soon....

P.S.: About the name, I prefer.: "the VexUs Sparky" if Greg agrees....

HI Zis,

It's your engine, time  and creativity.  The right name is the name you're most happy with.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 04, 2009, 09:02:38 AM
HI Zis,

It's your engine, time  and creativity.  The right name is the name you're most happy with.

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg....
Mmmm....

I think I am going to change your words a bit....

It's our engine, time  and creativity.  The right name is the name we are most happy with.

Now i think it's right....!! ;)

All the best,
Zissis


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 04, 2009, 09:23:07 AM
Humm... Sparky is good but is not so female... would you consider "VexUs Shakti"... Shakti is know as the female attribute of God and is the energizing spark found in all living things. It is also known as Chi.

What ever you feel is right :)... this is just a suggestion.

Luc



Luc,

I don't know....
whatever you (members) would agree....
I am open to your suggestions....

Friendly,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 04, 2009, 12:54:22 PM

Considering that this is a collaborative effort...and it is taking place on 'overunity.com'...what about considering calling 'her'...'Unity' ?

Regards...

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Damianos on January 04, 2009, 04:49:46 PM
Hi my friends,

"Unity" as a name sounds very good.
I hope you will also like it!

Thank you
Damainos
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 04, 2009, 04:58:37 PM
Considering that this is a collaborative effort...and it is taking place on 'overunity.com'...what about considering calling 'her'...'Unity' ?

Regards...


Actually, the whole thing is gotoluc's fault for making the observation public and Aaron's clarifications from Energetic.  Showing some bias here since I cursed everyone with the VexUs piggyback version of Luc's original circuit,  I like his suggestion of "VexUs Shakti" ... but "Unity" is also a very good name.

...my 2 cents.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 04, 2009, 06:25:07 PM
Actually, the whole thing is gotoluc's fault for making the observation public and Aaron's clarifications from Energetic.  Showing some bias here since I cursed everyone with the VexUs piggyback version of Luc's original circuit,  I like his suggestion of "VexUs Shakti" ... but "Unity" is also a very good name.

...my 2 cents.  Peace,

Greg

Hello my friends, I like both.!!!!

We can choose "Unity" for fistname and "VexUs Shakti" as surname....

Gentlemen I would like to introduce you,
Miss Unity VexUs Shakti..:  http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3162999970_cb0aca6aae_b.jpg

In a week, this is going to run just on water.!! Like S1r9a9m9 did. I am going to find the same bottle as he did for the water....
Also the same inverter, (not hooked up)
and the same battery....
also going to record the video on grass....
Oh I forgot the small silver box. I am going to find one too....

Greetings,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 04, 2009, 06:57:08 PM
Hello my friends, I like both.!!!!

We can choose "Unity" for fistname and "VexUs Shakti" as surname....

Oh I forgot the small silver box. I am going to find one too....

Greetings,
Zissis

Hello Zissis,

I now actually like the name VexUs Unity...  since all this has been possible through the Unity of all involved.

The silver box was a plastic margarine container spray painted silver ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 04, 2009, 07:01:27 PM
Hello Zissis,

I now actually like the name VexUs Unity...  since all this has been possible through the Unity of all involved.

The silver box was a plastic margarine container spray painted silver ;D

Luc

Margarine.... Not regular butter.... it is very important.!!!!  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 04, 2009, 10:45:40 PM
Hi everyone,

I have just completed measuring the plugs for wear documentation purposes.  I have created a baseline data table showing measurements taken at 7 different points on each plug.  The plugs have been I.D.'d and assigned to specific engine cylinders.

Thank you Robin David for these expert replications!

Here is a pic of the plugs and the chart:

Peace,

Greg

here is a pic of the numbered plugs
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/firestorm_plugs.jpg

this is the table showing 7 baseline dimension points for each plug
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/firestorm_data.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 05, 2009, 04:23:26 AM
WOW!... excellent documentation Greg ;)

Thanks for taking all the time to do this and share with all.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on January 05, 2009, 09:46:05 AM
Hi Greg!

Awesome work!!!!
Well done..!!

Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lefferdink on January 05, 2009, 08:31:07 PM
My hat's off to Robin David whom made the spark plugs.
Is it possible that this person would give out his secrets on how, what materials, and machinery the spark plugs were made of and from or lets say modified??
I would like to make a few sets for my automobiles, or have them made for me.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 05, 2009, 09:29:57 PM
My hat's off to Robin David whom made the spark plugs.
Is it possible that this person would give out his secrets on how, what materials, and machinery the spark plugs were made of and from or lets say modified??
I would like to make a few sets for my automobiles, or have them made for me.


Hi lefferdink,

Robin David and myself have already talked about him possibly taking private orders making these plugs to which is mostly labor intensive. At this time it takes him 2 hours per plug. He probably can reduce that time if he had larger orders. It is welding and machining work and the rate is $50. per hour. Send me a PM if you are interested and I will set you up.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 08, 2009, 02:57:51 AM
Hi everyone,

It's getting into the high 40's in my shop right now (AM). Since I installed the Firestorm replicas, I noticed that the Bug starts and runs solid when cold, no choke and WITHOUT the Water Spark Plug plasma circuit running. Amazing! I energized the Water Spark Plug circuit AND IT RAN EVEN BETTER ... #%$@&*!

Gotta keep working on the new water feed for the steam. I'm using a small variable speed peristaltic pump this time. Now I can increase the flow as a function of engine speed ... not automatically but at least it's something.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ECK H20 on January 08, 2009, 03:16:23 AM
 @Greg.  Hi Greg. Do you know what kind of alloy are use for the electrodes on the firestorm spark plug replication? For now , that plugs  seem to be very good.
I have seen the pictures on the bug's crankcase, you did a very nice job.
Jean-Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on January 08, 2009, 04:07:28 AM
hi Greg
   I just done my test with Vexus V.6
   Hi-Grade Audio C 2.7uf.  R 440  ohm V 295 dc with 335 uf storage cap ;)

   I put wire at the distributer cap, and take plug out for easy to look, not have any effect...???
circuit didn't draw any current after cap full. But after i move dc wire to the plug,  plasma show as it should. Then I put all 4 wire to each plug, and test function, circuit draw current but very less 0.1-0.3 amp 13.2 v...
  So it still not so sure plasmar work or not, i separate another plug(5th) put #2 spark wire on it, ran 3 cylinder at idal speed, for short time. I saw plasma work on this plag but it seem not constant, 5-10 cycle plasma work fine then gone 1-2 cycle  can see only normal spark and it looping all the testing time, I check V and current draw it still constant at -290 to -293 and 0.1-0.3 amp.??? 
  I can't solve this, but it seem better than all normal spark, So i decide to run on real life,+ water add 1 lite/40 km.
  after ran for work 5 rounds , 400 km. total, for sure easier cold start. Power  and fuel consumption slightly better, but only 5% i use 80 km every day, normal i pay average 100, after plasma i pay 94-96 for 5 day test
  If i add water, engine ran not so smooth, feel like missfire at ideal, and hi load low speed, then on day 3 i stop water add, bug ran very good... fuel consumption still 95 on the next day. this seem water not have any effect with fuel consumption. maybe quantity still not match.
   for now day 6, off/on plasma did not effect with power and fuel consumption, and engine start to missfire again...maybe plug already gone...

  So this is my test result...any comment...please..........
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 08, 2009, 04:18:51 AM
@Greg.  Hi Greg. Do you know what kind of alloy are use for the electrodes on the firestorm spark plug replication? For now , that plugs  seem to be very good.
I have seen the pictures on the bug's crankcase, you did a very nice job.
Jean-Luc

Bonjour Jean-Luc

Robin David has recently switched to a new alloy for durability. The plugs are now made of an Alloy called Beryllium Copper.  Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_copper

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ECK H20 on January 09, 2009, 02:57:15 AM
@ Luc. Bonjour Luc. Many thanks for the link, it's very interesting and I hope beryllium-copper is the best alloy to use with plasma arc ignition
Regards
Jean-Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 09, 2009, 05:46:29 PM
hi Greg
   I just done my test with Vexus V.6
   Hi-Grade Audio C 2.7uf.  R 440  ohm V 295 dc with 335 uf storage cap ;)

   I put wire at the distributer cap, and take plug out for easy to look, not have any effect...???
circuit didn't draw any current after cap full. But after i move dc wire to the plug,  plasma show as it should. Then I put all 4 wire to each plug, and test function, circuit draw current but very less 0.1-0.3 amp 13.2 v...
  So it still not so sure plasmar work or not, i separate another plug(5th) put #2 spark wire on it, ran 3 cylinder at idal speed, for short time. I saw plasma work on this plag but it seem not constant, 5-10 cycle plasma work fine then gone 1-2 cycle  can see only normal spark and it looping all the testing time, I check V and current draw it still constant at -290 to -293 and 0.1-0.3 amp.??? 
  I can't solve this, but it seem better than all normal spark, So i decide to run on real life,+ water add 1 lite/40 km.
  after ran for work 5 rounds , 400 km. total, for sure easier cold start. Power  and fuel consumption slightly better, but only 5% i use 80 km every day, normal i pay average 100, after plasma i pay 94-96 for 5 day test
  If i add water, engine ran not so smooth, feel like missfire at ideal, and hi load low speed, then on day 3 i stop water add, bug ran very good... fuel consumption still 95 on the next day. this seem water not have any effect with fuel consumption. maybe quantity still not match.
   for now day 6, off/on plasma did not effect with power and fuel consumption, and engine start to missfire again...maybe plug already gone...

  So this is my test result...any comment...please..........

Hi zzzz,

I initially had similar problems when my current limiter R1 was too small so the CDI  C1 Cap would not fill all the way.  I am using a 1uF cap and a 1000 ohm R1 and my oscillator supplies 350 VDC at 3000 RPM (four banger).  Your combination should work too.  Is there some way to make sure your power supply is working under load.  It would be good to use an oscilloscope to look at the output of oscillator / inverter to make sure it does not fall too much as engine speed goes up.

Also, I had no luck adding water as water droplets / fog.  But I had good results with steam I generate from dripping allot of water on the exhaust in the heater box.

The water circuit is not in yet but the following picture shows the inlet coming from the heater box, air inlet and filter is in the cab on the floor behind the driver, and the carburetor is kept from boiling by fan air routed from the right side (restrictor in end of duct hose 7/16" dia).

warm air and steam into carburetor - carburetor bowl cooled by fan bleed air
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/new_inlet.jpg

Be careful of high voltage.  And make sure your wires are not arcing, etc.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on January 09, 2009, 10:37:22 PM
@All,

Please send me your e-mail address if you are interested and i will send a working vapor carb. schematic ..

I tried to post here but the file type is not accepted..

Best Regards,

Jared
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lefferdink on January 10, 2009, 12:32:23 AM
Guys, you may want to check out this metal and get a "Material Safety Data Sheet":  "Beryllium-Copper"
I worked for North American Avation back in the 60's.  The fine particles were getting into the air and people like tool & cutter grinders were dying over this stuff.  They had to wear masks and wash the tools before they could grind any cuts on them. This stuff created puss pockets in their lungs.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 10, 2009, 05:53:48 AM
Guys, you may want to check out this metal and get a "Material Safety Data Sheet":  "Beryllium-Copper"
I worked for North American Avation back in the 60's.  The fine particles were getting into the air and people like tool & cutter grinders were dying over this stuff.  They had to wear masks and wash the tools before they could grind any cuts on them. This stuff created puss pockets in their lungs.

Hi lefferdink,

thank you for your post and concern. I emailed Robin your post and here is his reply.

Luc

My email to Robin:
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:19:50 -0800
From: gotoluc@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Firestorm plugs
To: robin david

Hi Robin,

I don't know if you are following the topic at the OU Forum but if not the below was posted by user lefferdink:

Can you research this for your sake of health.

Luc

lefferdink's post:
Guys, you may want to check out this metal and get a "Material Safety Data Sheet":  "Beryllium-Copper"
I worked for North American Avation back in the 60's.  The fine particles were getting into the air and people like tool & cutter grinders were dying over this stuff.  They had to wear masks and wash the tools before they could grind any cuts on them. This stuff created puss pockets in their lungs.


Robin's reply:
Luc, Yes I am aware of the hazards of beryllium copper and wear my welding mask when welding or machining it . I tend to be like the canary in the mine so I am careful around a lot of what I work on. Thanks for the heads up, Robin David
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 11, 2009, 10:32:29 PM
Hi all,

...just an update.  Made and installed water delivery manifold (bent tube with some 1/16th holes).  Made a couple of freeway runs.  Enlarged the carb bleed air cooling hole to 1/2" dia. ... carb got a little warm - dodn't want to boil the gas in the float bowl and torch everything.  Using the I.V. water drip right now 'cause I'm waiting for some more peristaltic tubes for the pump ... they wear out awfully fast ... inferior tube material I think.  Getting close to resuming tests.  As soon as peristaltic pump is in, then baseline pictures of #2 plug (easiest to get to), mileage, fuel and away we go.

I may still wrap some of that copper scrub stuff around everything though ... don' know.

Peace,

Greg

water supply manifold with 1/16" dia. holes
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/water_tube.jpg

manifold installed (bright sunshine!)
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/tube_install.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on January 13, 2009, 09:09:27 AM
Hi zzzz,

I initially had similar problems when my current limiter R1 was too small so the CDI  C1 Cap would not fill all the way.  I am using a 1uF cap and a 1000 ohm R1 and my oscillator supplies 350 VDC at 3000 RPM (four banger).  Your combination should work too.  Is there some way to make sure your power supply is working under load.  It would be good to use an oscilloscope to look at the output of oscillator / inverter to make sure it does not fall too much as engine speed goes up.

Also, I had no luck adding water as water droplets / fog.  But I had good results with steam I generate from dripping allot of water on the exhaust in the heater box.

The water circuit is not in yet but the following picture shows the inlet coming from the heater box, air inlet and filter is in the cab on the floor behind the driver, and the carburetor is kept from boiling by fan air routed from the right side (restrictor in end of duct hose 7/16" dia).

warm air and steam into carburetor - carburetor bowl cooled by fan bleed air
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/new_inlet.jpg

Be careful of high voltage.  And make sure your wires are not arcing, etc.

Peace,

Greg

Thanks Greg,
 So should i change to 1uf 1000 ohm?
from the pic... You feed hot air from heater box... that very convert from normal theory... but i agree with you...
Normally we need coolest aur intake for more density more power...
but i ever test with my bug by feed hot air in quite the same way that you do, result quite impress, 10-20% less fuel can normally get....BUT...always have treade of....power drop alot ... drivablity not satify...
so i take it off and change from gasoline to LPG. until now.

in your case power drop or not, and did you got missfire both with steam + no plasma and steam + plasma....

and can you feel differences between plasma on and off when running  ...

I will try more...please suggest which point i should improve...

thanks again
zzzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 22, 2009, 11:24:42 PM
Hi all,

There has been some concern about how the beryllium-copper plugs are wearing.  Many saw the data table I posted showing seven distinct measurement points for each plug.  After about 250 miles of 'running around town' miles I pulled my #2 plug and checked it against the data table.  I detected no more than about .0015" variation from the recorded data ... well within measurement error ... enough to say "0" wear.

Of more concern to me was the uniformity of the spark's excursion across the anode / electrode surfaces.  So I enriched the idle mixture to get some carbon on the plug so I could "take a picture" of the spark's excursion.

All I can say is that the wear from the spark must certainly be spread out evenly.  The picture I've included looks just like an inverted shadow cast from a bright light.

Below is the pic:

Peace,

Greg

Photo showing sparking pattern keeping carbon burned off - clean
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/uniform_spark.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 23, 2009, 04:43:38 AM
Thanks for taking the time to give us an update Greg ;)

Keep up the great work

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 24, 2009, 03:24:44 AM
Hello everyone,

Update:

I'm happy to say that the 'water-spark-plug-plasma-circuit' part of the effort has been trouble free since the last rev of the VexUs piggyback circuit (months back) ... it's been all the other crap that's gotten in the way ... oil leak, carb problems, not enough time in the day, etc.

I had a problem with my pilot jet in the Bug's carb.  The hole in the casting was cross threaded (by me of course).  I found another  carb body (now I have three) and changed in new parts.

My oil fix was tits in that it's the first time I can remember it being absolutely DRY under the Bug. I'm finishing up the steam water work ... adding some preheat (more steel tubing), etc. so I can put 'too' much steam through the system.  Also I discovered a slight pressure drop through the heater box so I'll put a blower in to mitigate that. The carb cooler circuit works great too (duct air directed to the upper carb body to keep bowl from boiling).

Almost ready to get back to testing ... yahoo!

Peace,

Greg 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 26, 2009, 02:02:47 AM
Hi everyone,

I will soon start a new topic for Robin David to show everyone how Robin build's his Firestorm style spark plug which have been supplied to Greg for his VW and also to Ash in Ozzieland.

At this time Robin is building a new set of Firestorms and is taking many pictures and also notes of the steps which will all be shared once he provides them to me.

Please stay tuned

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: electronz on January 27, 2009, 03:08:35 AM
Hi too u all!
I have a question i hope somebody could answer: Can Stainless steel 304 withstand plasma with getting worn out? Are there any metall that can withstand plasma sparks?
Regs
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sparks on January 27, 2009, 04:03:51 AM
   The 304 stainless will go away depending on the heat content of the plasma.
All plasmas are not hot.  A plasma is what is conducting energy through a flurescent bulb.  Tesla's tower or top load is a good example of a plasma field.  Not the stupid streamers guys build for effects but a plasma initiated by a curved smooth surface like the spark plugs being designed here. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: electronz on January 27, 2009, 04:27:25 AM
   The 304 stainless will go away depending on the heat content of the plasma.
All plasmas are not hot.  A plasma is what is conducting energy through a flurescent bulb.  Tesla's tower or top load is a good example of a plasma field.  Not the stupid streamers guys build for effects but a plasma initiated by a curved smooth surface like the spark plugs being designed here. 

Thanks for the answer.
Regs
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 28, 2009, 01:37:34 AM
Hi everyone,

This is just an update on Firestorm wear.  I have included a photo of my #2 plug.  Right now the mixture is set lean ... in fact too lean ... but it had to be done.  The pic shows no carbon and each of the "bands" on the dome where spark bounces around actually look almost shiny in person.  There is no unusually localized wear or hot spots.  In fact, when comparing measurements to the baseline data, mostly just the narrowest portions are wearing and approaching the wider spaces (within the same band) ... equalization.  There is about 0.003 gap wear (ave) ... 400 miles.

Greg

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/lean_burn.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on January 28, 2009, 03:22:35 AM
Hi Greg
where can I get this one for my bug... ;)

I still don't get significently fue saving from my system....

but still try...

BG,
zzzz
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 28, 2009, 05:42:14 AM
Hi Greg
where can I get this one for my bug... ;)

I still don't get significently fue saving from my system....

but still try...

BG,
zzzz

Hi zzzz,

A guy named Robin David is a Firestorm Spark Plug replicator.  He made these for me to test.  At present he's perfecting his fabrication technique so they're not generally available.  Luc (this thread's moderator) has more details than I.  I'm sure Robin appreciates your interest.  More news about these plugs will be coming soon I'm sure.

Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: zzzz on January 28, 2009, 07:16:28 AM
thanks, ;)

from my system plug still look ok, only sharp edge of plug aliter bit fillet. it still work anyway.
how about iridium or platinum plug... very small core.. it work wery well with my turbo engine, but for plasma, i never try... how do you think about?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 28, 2009, 09:06:18 PM
 mixture and timing
Hi all,

I just got surprised out of my wit. All along people here had asked me how much I had retarded the ignition timing. I think Aaron (from energetic) and Luc were the first to ask me that. I had adhered to the stock timing for my initial testing which is 7.5 to 10 deg advanced. Things ran fine and I got good results.

I have been trying to refine my steam generation a little and partly accomplished my goals on that. Then I decided to lean the mixture somewhat because adding an inert gas (in this case steam) displaces some air 'oxygen' resulting in a richer mixture. I re-jetted to 0.0465" which is mid way between "stock" and "it ain't gonna run". I took it for a ride and it bucked, hesitated and so on. I check the electrical, scoped the VexUs system, checked the plugs ... bummer - nothing.

It was the timing. With a lean mixture and the water, the speed of combustion must be tremendous! I set the timing to 0 deg TDC and it was better and then 5 deg retarded and it feels great there. Now I can speak to the timing issue first hand.

I would say that plasma initiated combustion is much more energetic than the standard combustion by a considerable factor.

I am going to refine my take on the timing issue, try several points and then get back to testing. I am able to aspirate 50% more steam than before with the simple I.V. drip system ... so I'll keep that. I am taking in only part (not all) of the air through the heater box ... a change away from what I was going to do. I still may have to cool the bowl.

Thanks for reading this,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on January 30, 2009, 05:32:04 AM
mixture and timing
Hi all,

I just got surprised out of my wit. All along people here had asked me how much I had retarded the ignition timing. I think Aaron (from energetic) and Luc were the first to ask me that. I had adhered to the stock timing for my initial testing which is 7.5 to 10 deg advanced. Things ran fine and I got good results.

I have been trying to refine my steam generation a little and partly accomplished my goals on that. Then I decided to lean the mixture somewhat because adding an inert gas (in this case steam) displaces some air 'oxygen' resulting in a richer mixture. I re-jetted to 0.0465" which is mid way between "stock" and "it ain't gonna run". I took it for a ride and it bucked, hesitated and so on. I check the electrical, scoped the VexUs system, checked the plugs ... bummer - nothing.

It was the timing. With a lean mixture and the water, the speed of combustion must be tremendous! I set the timing to 0 deg TDC and it was better and then 5 deg retarded and it feels great there. Now I can speak to the timing issue first hand.

I would say that plasma initiated combustion is much more energetic than the standard combustion by a considerable factor.

I am going to refine my take on the timing issue, try several points and then get back to testing. I am able to aspirate 50% more steam than before with the simple I.V. drip system ... so I'll keep that. I am taking in only part (not all) of the air through the heater box ... a change away from what I was going to do. I still may have to cool the bowl.

Thanks for reading this,

Greg

Excellent news once again Greg ;D

I always felt that if we could get the timing at TDC or past and the engine still runs well than that would be a real positive confirmation that we are on the right track.

Thanks for all your great work and sharing with all.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on January 30, 2009, 07:15:28 AM
Excellent news once again Greg ;D

I always felt that if we could get the timing at TDC or past and the engine still runs well than that would be a real positive confirmation that we are on the right track.

Thanks for all your great work and sharing with all.

Luc

... you're welcome

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 02, 2009, 04:34:33 AM
Hi everyone,

below is a picture of a New Firestorm replica made by Robin David to which a set of 4 will be sent once again to Greg for comparative testing.

These new Firestorm's are made of Nickle. The reasons to try Nickle is that it has been reported to have a catalyst effect with water.

Hopefully soon Greg will have a set of 4 of these to compare them to the Beryllium Copper Alloy Firestorm's he is now using and testing.

We are hopeful the Nickle could further improve the performance and or economy of Greg's VW Bug.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on February 03, 2009, 02:47:33 PM
Hi everybody..!!
It's been a loooong time....!!
I had a lot of study the past weeks so any experiments were "iced"

I am coming back with a video, showing our Unity working. Nothing special, not an update.!
She is in my bedroom running on pure 93o alcohol (methanol)
I have changed the spark-plug to iridium. No plasma.!

Here is the video.:
(say hello to unity..!!!! ;D ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWFR3UUEno

Regards,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 03, 2009, 06:52:17 PM
Thanks Zissis for the update and sharing your new video of Unity ;)

If I were you I would continue testing with alcohol since water mixes with it very well. What you do is add water until Unity has a problem running and then try to make changes that could help her to run better, when she does then add more water and keep tuning, modifying  and you may eventually get to more water than alcohol ;D

If you post your results and you have good results, then most probably Robin David would want to make you a Firestorm replica for Unity to further improve your results.

Keep up the research and sharing.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on February 03, 2009, 10:37:05 PM
Thanks Zissis for the update and sharing your new video of Unity ;)

If I were you I would continue testing with alcohol since water mixes with it very well. What you do is add water until Unity has a problem running and then try to make changes that could help her to run better, when she does then add more water and keep tuning, modifying  and you may eventually get to more water than alcohol ;D

If you post your results and you have good results, then most probably Robin David would want to make you a Firestorm replica for Unity to further improve your results.

Keep up the research and sharing.

Luc



Hi Luc.!!

Thanks for the advice.!!
I am going to do it even though alcohol is much more expensive than gasoline.   :'(

Anyway I have noticed some "problems" running with alcohol. When the air intake is choked at full, this is the only way to start. On open air it won't start. That means that she needs a very rich mixture with alcohol. When I try to open the throttle at half, there are some misfires. Those misfires stop when I open the air intake at full. Then I can throttle it at full. When back to idle, and air NOT choked, it stops.
You can notice that on the video.

Thanks for the advice....
More updates to come soon.!  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 04, 2009, 04:18:22 AM
Hi Luc.!!

Thanks for the advice.!!
I am going to do it even though alcohol is much more expensive than gasoline.   :'(

Anyway I have noticed some "problems" running with alcohol. When the air intake is choked at full, this is the only way to start. On open air it won't start. That means that she needs a very rich mixture with alcohol. When I try to open the throttle at half, there are some misfires. Those misfires stop when I open the air intake at full. Then I can throttle it at full. When back to idle, and air NOT choked, it stops.
You can notice that on the video.

Thanks for the advice....
More updates to come soon.!  :)


Hi Zissis,

I would not think that using the choke fully closed to be a problem. I think that the more water we have going in the engine the less air intake we will need since the water contains Oxygen ;D... so keep this in mind for optimal tuning ;)... that choke leaver maybe your best friend after all.

The alcohol you are using already contains minimum 7% water as it is not 100% pure.

Also make sure to vent out your exhaust as the alcohol you are using contains poison so people don't drink it and you don't want to breath that stuff.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 06, 2009, 05:38:10 PM
new nickel plugs

Hi everyone,

I received my new set of Firestorm replicas from Robin. They are beautiful .. you've already seen one of them posted here.

The first thing I did was a pressure test. It would barely fire either on regular spark of VexUs. The gap is much greater .090 Krupa gap. The Bug would not run. Robin said he's running the same nickel plug/gap so I started to suspect my Bug's old coil. I switched it out with a new one and ... tah dah !

Under the pressure test these plugs Kick A. But, and I don't know if I should feel disappointed or not, they produce what appears to be the same plasma spark with or without the VexUs plasma circuit "on". At atmospheric there is a difference though ... but that doesn't count.

That's this update,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 06, 2009, 05:51:20 PM
new nickel plugs

Hi everyone,

I received my new set of Firestorm replicas from Robin. They are beautiful .. you've already seen one of them posted here.

The first thing I did was a pressure test. It would barely fire either on regular spark of VexUs. The gap is much greater .090 Krupa gap. The Bug would not run. Robin said he's running the same nickel plug/gap so I started to suspect my Bug's old coil. I switched it out with a new one and ... tah dah !

Under the pressure test these plugs Kick A. But, and I don't know if I should feel disappointed or not, they produce what appears to be the same plasma spark with or without the VexUs plasma circuit "on". At atmospheric there is a difference though ... but that doesn't count.

That's this update,

Greg

Thanks for the update Greg.

interesting way to find that your old coil was not outputting as much as the new one.

Also, very surprised :o that your pressure test is not showing any difference in plasma with or without the VexUs circuit ???

I guess the real test will be with the engine running!... please do update us of the results of what happens with the engine running and you turn on and off the VexUs circuit using these new Nickle Firestorm's.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 06, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
Thanks for the update Greg.

interesting way to find that your old coil was not outputting as much as the new one.

Also, very surprised :o that your pressure test is not showing any difference in plasma with or without the VexUs circuit ???

I guess the real test will be with the engine running!... please do update us of the results of what happens with the engine running and you turn on and off the VexUs circuit using these new Nickle Firestorm's.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Well the Bug runs very peppy.  At idle there is an increase in RPM with the plasma circuit "on".  Either under load or sitting at higher RPM there is no perceptible change.  With more standard plugs there is change across the board

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 08, 2009, 12:15:44 AM
Krupa's plasma under pressure-inductoin ignition

Hi all,

I uploaded a video showing the Firestorm at no pressure-VexUs on and off and also under pressure-VexUs on and off.

A healthy plasma arc is produced by the plug even without a plasma or CDI driver circuit. It is enhanced somewhat however by the VexUs circuit.

video is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp-skZ42I5w

Enjoy,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 09, 2009, 04:54:12 AM
Hi Luc,

Well the Bug runs very peppy.  At idle there is an increase in RPM with the plasma circuit "on".  Either under load or sitting at higher RPM there is no perceptible change.  With more standard plugs there is change across the board

Greg

Thanks Greg for the update.

I guess the only way to confirm any change would be to use a dynamometer.

Here in Ottawa, Canada are starting to see more Sunlight, so we are slowly getting out of the deep freeze. I hope to get back to testing my engine as soon as the weather gets warmer ::).

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 09, 2009, 05:09:06 AM
Excellent demonstration video Greg ;)

Very interesting to see 8) the results.

Do you think these new Nickle Firestorms are giving a better result then the Beryllium copper ones?

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 12, 2009, 02:52:51 AM
Hi everyone,

I posted a new video.  Luc was disappointed in me for not spraying a Firestorm plug with water a couple of videos back so I made this video showing water spray on one of the new nickel Firestorm plugs.

It's short and boring but I hope still interesting for you all.  It's here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Jq_UgWv9E&

Enjoy.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 12, 2009, 03:42:52 AM
Hi everyone,

Here are some video frame captures from the water spray mist portion of my last video.  There are countless of these FLAME FINGERS ... some into the camera and some on the far side of the plug.  I was very thrilled to see these.  I didn't see them until I previewed the video on-line !

Peace,

Greg

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/finger1.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/finger2.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/finger3.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/finger4.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/finger5.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/finger6.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 12, 2009, 05:46:50 AM
Hi everyone,

I posted a new video.  Luc was disappointed in me for not spraying a Firestorm plug with water a couple of videos back so I made this video showing water spray on one of the new nickel Firestorm plugs.

It's short and boring but I hope still interesting for you all.  It's here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Jq_UgWv9E&

Enjoy.  Peace,

Greg

Excellent video demonstration Greg ;)

And thanks for spraying water on them this time ;D

Would you say that the water is reacting better with the Nickel then the previous Beryllium Copper ones?

This was the idea behind trying Nickle, as it has been reported to have a catalytic effect on water.

Thanks for taking the time to post all these great still shots also.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 12, 2009, 07:03:22 AM
Excellent video demonstration Greg ;)

And thanks for spraying water on them this time ;D

Would you say that the water is reacting better with the Nickel then the previous Beryllium Copper ones?

This was the idea behind trying Nickle, as it has been reported to have a catalytic effect on water.

Thanks for taking the time to post all these great still shots also.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Thanks.  I thought you'd like the water-part.  There are several things different.  First I have a newer coil in the bug now ... not special, just newer.  Initially the bug would not run on the new plugs Robin sent.  The only difference was the .090" gap ... Krupa's spec on his plugs.  I was going to send them back to Robin but I really suspected an aged coil.  I swapped it out and "bingo!".  So the gap is the other thing that's different ... that's a huge gap.

I was pleased to see those Flame Fingers in the real-world instead of just on the test bench ... they really are a hallmark of sorts.  I have no way of verifying a catalytic effect, but I think they're better than the stock configs and the beryllium-copper ones.  They have to better if they can produce most of the plasma on their own ... but now I think we'll still need a plasma Circuit to push it over the top.  We'll see.

Take care,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 12, 2009, 04:19:14 PM
Hi Luc,

Thanks.  I thought you'd like the water-part.  There are several things different.  First I have a newer coil in the bug now ... not special, just newer.  Initially the bug would not run on the new plugs Robin sent.  The only difference was the .090" gap ... Krupa's spec on his plugs.  I was going to send them back to Robin but I really suspected an aged coil.  I swapped it out and "bingo!".  So the gap is the other thing that's different ... that's a huge gap.

I was pleased to see those Flame Fingers in the real-world instead of just on the test bench ... they really are a hallmark of sorts.  I have no way of verifying a catalytic effect, but I think they're better than the stock configs and the beryllium-copper ones.  They have to better if they can produce most of the plasma on their own ... but now I think we'll still need a plasma Circuit to push it over the top.  We'll see.

Take care,

Greg

Thanks for the detailed reply Greg ;)

One thing I can recommend is to test with is a microwave transformer, Primary powered by an inverter and collect from the Secondary the 2,000 + DC volts in the 1uf or less cap that comes with most microwaves and use a 0.25uf cap as discharge.

The inverter should have no problem since you will have isolation between Primary and Secondary.

I know that we all don't like working with high voltage but if we don't try it we will never know if it's what we are looking for.

I tried it once with a 1uf at 2,000 volts dc but no water, my ears ringed for a day, so you may want to use ear protection and most definitely UV protection glasses and thick rubber gloves ;)

I would even recommend you use a voltage multipliers but obviously less capacitance. With 5,000 vdc and a 0.04uf cap (half a Joule) that should give you a great show ;D  You can get a 0.04uf 10KV rated cap here: http://cgi.ebay.com/0-04uF-10KV-High-Voltage-Capacitor-HV-Tesla-Coil-Ham_W0QQitemZ360104866107QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Electronic_Components?hash=item360104866107&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2

Here is a great online capacitance energy calculator: http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php

As soon as the weather gets warmer in Canada, this is what I will be testing.

So... are you going to beat me to it?

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dankie on February 12, 2009, 04:34:31 PM
Deleted by gotoluc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 12, 2009, 06:31:52 PM
Hi all,

Sorry for all of the posts ... can't help it ... I got so excited about the plasma arc-induced D.I. Water electrolysis and ensuing hydrogen-oxygen reaction I put together a short video compilation of the clearest events to share.

It's not big enough to waste on YouTube so you can douwnload it or open it.  It was made with Movie Maker in XP.  It's very generic but much higher quality than gets rendered on YouTube.

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus_sequence.wmv (http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus_sequence.wmv)

Thanks.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Is this circuit functional ?
Post by: demios on February 12, 2009, 06:33:12 PM
Now, I have to tell you that my knowledge of electronics is pathetic :rofl: but, I think the principle is sound. So, here's the circuit I "envisioned" that's supposed to increase the 13.5VAC (varies between 13.5VAC and 14.5VAC) off of the car alternator and send it through an isolation transformer (40x) that is connected to the voltage quadrupler and then to the dump capacitor rated at 3000V 680pF (3.06m Joules). The dump cap is not in the diagram:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Voltage_quadrupler.svg

Output ranges:

13.5V x 40 x 4 = 2160VDC
14.5V x 40 x 4 = 2320VDC

As I read here: http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/mul/ we have to use capacitors and diodes that are rated DOUBLE in comparison to input voltage (13.5/14.5 x 40 = 540VDC / 580VDC). That means (just to be sure) 1500V rated caps and diodes for quadrupler construction. I also read that these voltage multipliers can be found in old BW TVs, you can also read that here (under "bridge circuit") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_doubler.

So, my question is, will this aid us in creating plasma spark (piggyback the existing spark, of course)?

Thanks for your effort guys!
Title: Re: Is this circuit functional ?
Post by: gotoluc on February 12, 2009, 07:16:13 PM
Now, I have to tell you that my knowledge of electronics is pathetic :rofl: but, I think the principle is sound. So, here's the circuit I "envisioned" that's supposed to increase the 13.5VAC (varies between 13.5VAC and 14.5VAC) off of the car alternator and send it through an isolation transformer (40x) that is connected to the voltage quadrupler and then to the dump capacitor rated at 3000V 680pF (3.06m Joules). The dump cap is not in the diagram:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Voltage_quadrupler.svg

Output ranges:

13.5V x 40 x 4 = 2160VDC
14.5V x 40 x 4 = 2320VDC

As I read here: http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/mul/ we have to use capacitors and diodes that are rated DOUBLE in comparison to input voltage (13.5/14.5 x 40 = 540VDC / 580VDC). That means (just to be sure) 1500V rated caps and diodes for quadrupler construction. I also read that these voltage multipliers can be found in old BW TVs, you can also read that here (under "bridge circuit") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_doubler.

So, my question is, will this aid us in creating plasma spark (piggyback the existing spark, of course)?

Thanks for your effort guys!

Hi demios,

great post ;)

This should work and save the cost and energy losses of an inverter. Using the AC of the alternator to feed a step up transformer is something that was suggested before but looks like no one tried it.

This would be the way I would do it on a car as it would supply more voltage and power as the engine revs and make more plasma power that is needed. I think this is the ideal combination as it makes power as needed.

I hope you build it :)

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on February 12, 2009, 07:22:17 PM
Hi all,

Sorry for all of the posts ... can't help it ... I got so excited about the plasma arc-induced D.I. Water electrolysis and ensuing hydrogen-oxygen reaction I put together a short video compilation of the clearest events to share.

It's not big enough to waste on YouTube so you can douwnload it or open it.  It was made with Movie Maker in XP.  It's very generic but much higher quality than gets rendered on YouTube.

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus_sequence.wmv (http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus_sequence.wmv)

Thanks.  Peace,

Greg

Another great job Greg ;)

Thank for taking the time to do this and also think of hosting it so we get to download it directly without quality loss.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 12, 2009, 07:35:55 PM
Thank you for kind words Luc! This means I do understand something, which is great (I thought I'll never learn anything related to electronics)  ;D

I actually do intend to build it, since parts are readily available and cheap. The HV diodes and caps are around 6 euros all together, and transformer shouldn't be more than 10-15 euros. The spark plugs I use are 11 euros (4 of them), so experimenting should be super cheap and fun :D I involved local Peugeot club into building HHO generators and plasma spark systems. They seem very eager to pursue this. Especially baring in mind that some of them drag race (street drag - 402).

As soon as weather turns nicer (in a few days) I'll go and by the goods!

Cheers !!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: higherpoweredh2o on February 13, 2009, 03:09:07 AM
I have been following this thread for a while now and like what I see. As a race engine builder I fully understand the importance and benefit of super high powered ignition systems. I am especially interested in gmeast testing on the vw.

For a little backgound on me I am currently searching for truth in the hydroxy world. There is alot of myth and little hardcore fact with this crowd. The work needs to be done and I know 100% there is benefits of running hho with gasoline. But I am also finding negatives.

The ICE engine has made no real advances in technology in over 100 years. We have made significant changes to fuel and ignition control to increase eff slightly but no drastic changes have been made in application of gasoline.  An ICE is just that. It requiress alot of ignition advance to start vaporizing our liquid fuel in the combustion chamber, the advance starts the fire in order to have the air fuel mixture to its rapid combustion ( explosion)  state at the downward powerstroke. We all know heat expands and therfor expands that small volume of liquid gas into a vapor state so that rapid combustion can occure.  Modern engines burn 95-97 % of the fuel put in them. The problem is thermally they are eff heaters. The best of the best are only 20% eff in turning that fuel into kinetic energy. the other 80 % is friction loss 5% and heat.

I am very excited at what gmeast has done with lean mixtures and water vapor. The timing at 5 deg atdc shows he is transforming the ICE to an IEE internal explosion engine.   The rapid combustion or explosion is where our power comes from. I am seeing this with hydroxy also. I am finishing an cold vapor system that will create 6 LPH of cold water vapor to inject in an engine. It will be used in conjunction of plasma ,hho and  stamd alone fuel management.

I did some emissions testing earlier this week and found hho to reduce emissions at certain loads and also increase them at different loads. I am relating this to peak combustion temps and raw fuel avail. Most of the hype on hho is that it almost eliminates emissions. Not true. So this research is still much needed.


Sorry for the long post But I wanted to start getting involved with plasma experiments and data exchange. I do have a couple questions.


GMeast::

How is cylinderhead temp differ form stock with your current set up

Do you run an egt gauge?

have you done any emissions tests.  This will show if nox goes up from flame temp. generally nox increases with lean mixtures. But the vapor you introduce can control it. I was curious to if you have emissions test or been able to measure temp of flame in cylinder.


how does the seat of the pants feel power wise......?


If any questions come up please post. I am very open and will answer all questions. Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 13, 2009, 05:21:02 PM
I have been following this thread for a while now and like what I see. As a race engine builder I fully understand the importance and benefit of super high powered ignition systems. I am especially interested in gmeast testing on the vw.

-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

Sorry for the long post But I wanted to start getting involved with plasma experiments and data exchange. I do have a couple questions.


GMeast::

How is cylinderhead temp differ form stock with your current set up

Do you run an egt gauge?

have you done any emissions tests.  This will show if nox goes up from flame temp. generally nox increases with lean mixtures. But the vapor you introduce can control it. I was curious to if you have emissions test or been able to measure temp of flame in cylinder.


how does the seat of the pants feel power wise......?


If any questions come up please post. I am very open and will answer all questions. Thanks for reading.

Hi higherpoweredh2o,

Well, unfortunately I did not think to embed a TC in the head when I had the engine out for an oil cooler leak issue .... kick me in the head !  But recently I installed a bypass circuit that replaces the old intake manifold heater circuit (new one made of pipe fittings).  This gives me access directly to the #2 exhaust port.  It's just a matter of pipe fittings,  a TC and  readout ... part of the next tests (almost started ...need to do regular work for now).

I'll share this observation.  First I have a lean main jet.  Also the pilot jet is a size smaller.  After warm up, I set a high idle (on the throttle adj screw).  Steam off.  Plasma circuit off.  TC up exhaust pipe showed 475F.  Turned on the steam (not cold vapor).  Exhaust temp (pipe) drops to 350F - 385F.  Engine slows down (obviously loses power).  Plasma circuit on.  Exhaust temp (pipe) 375F - 385F.  Engine speeds up to greater than at start. The TC up the exhaust pipe only indicates a trend.  The actual EGT's are much higher we all know.

Essentially the plasma circuit produces a more energetic combustion allowing the steam to gain pressure and provide additional torque instead of just cooling the combustion gas and losing power. The expansion (compression) ratio is the same so the fully expanded / exhausted volume is cooler and condenses more water out the tailpipe.  With the plasma circuit off, the steam cools the combustion gasses and power is lost.  With the plasma circuit on,  the steam gains pressure and contributes torque.  In both cases the exhaust temp stays nearly the same.  With the plasma circuit and steam on, the engine is running cooler for the same power ... therefore less goes to cooling the engine and more goes to turning the wheels.

For the best, best, best power - pep, I need to advance it nearer 'stock' BUT it runs very, very, well near TDC at cruise.

Now I have been thinking about this timing issue as it applies specifically to the slight detour I've taken away exploding water as the primary fuel.  The steam will take some TIME to build pressure as it robs heat from combustion gas while building pressure in exchange (and in accordance with partial pressure laws).  This, in my opinion, is why II need SOME timing advance.  There is more happening I'm sure.

Thanks for your history, interest and all.  Peace,

Greg




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: CowboyRX on February 13, 2009, 05:55:08 PM
I built the circuit from a few months ago (with 22uF and 470uF cap), which had problems with inverter blow ups. I believe those issues have been resolved. I am having difficulty finding the latest/stable version of the circuit. If anyone can provide the link or schematic, it's much appreciated.

Thanks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 13, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
I built the circuit from a few months ago (with 22uF and 470uF cap), which had problems with inverter blow ups. I believe those issues have been resolved. I am having difficulty finding the latest/stable version of the circuit. If anyone can provide the link or schematic, it's much appreciated.

Thanks.

Hi CowboyRX,

I don't know what others have built but I have had this one on my VW Bug for several months now ... no problems and all of my YouTube Bug videos use what's listed below.

this first file is the pl;asma circuit.  I'm using a 2uF C1 and 500 Ohm X 50 watts for R1.  You can use diode strings or the H.V.  NTE517 microwave oven replacements.  I use four in parallel for each plug ... that's $100.00 for all 16 I used ...allot of $ for just this part of it.
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_6.jpg

this second file is the oscillator schematic that replaces an inverter.  No voltage multiplier at end though ...use the one shown in first file.  I have not been able to blow this one up yet but I did have to build it. 
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/better.jpg

this third file is a picture of the oscillator.  The caps are 1uF and there is a 15 VDC TVS (transient voltage suppressor) upper left little diode looking thing.
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/better_inv.jpg

Th transformer is a Tamura PF24-10 ... 115VAC x 10VAC Series  . The lower transistors are MJ2955 PNP's, the upper transistors in the heat sinks are 2N3055 NPN's.  The 220 ohm x 1/2 W 's are replaced by 50 ohm x 5 W's.  The 12K ohm resistors stay as-is. The empty spaces at the top-left and middle-right are for small cooling fans.  You need the fans for continuous running.

Be careful of the HIGH VOLTAGE.  Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: CowboyRX on February 13, 2009, 08:35:54 PM
Thanks Greg. Can I use an off the shelf 150w or larger inverter for the plasma circuit? They are easily available for < $20.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 13, 2009, 10:32:40 PM
Thanks Greg. Can I use an off the shelf 150w or larger inverter for the plasma circuit? They are easily available for < $20.

Hi CowboyRX,

I don't think so.  One or two guys have offered up that you can place an inductor (choke) somewhere in a regular inverter's hook up and it will provide the needed protection.  I keep asking for specifics but no on comes forward.  I got so frustrated I searched online and found an oscillator circuit but it was a power HOG.  Then a member in Energetic Forum posted the circuit I sent you.  With the values I gave you it produces AC at 80 - 90 Hz.

If you use an inverter you will also have to include an isolation transformer between the inverter and the multiplier, otherwise the oscillator's transformer serves that function.  If you don't use a multiplier then you have to use a full wave bridge rectifier into the VexUs circuit to get the DC otherwise the multiplier does that for you.

I'm not going to give up requesting specifics about the choke-protector ... oh yeah ... I guess I just made yet another request for assistance in this post ... tee, hee.

I wish I had been able to figure out the problem with exploding inverters ... but the real goal is to explode Water, Huh?

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: higherpoweredh2o on February 13, 2009, 10:56:43 PM
Thank you for the reply gm east.  It was very informative. And will help me in my application. I will be taking a very complex approach to hydroxy cold vapor and plasma that will help all I am sure.

I have already

egt
wideband
pressure transducers for cylinder.

and soon
 
actual flame temperature measurment probes for combustion.
will also be using 360 degree cam- crank correlation to use accelerometer math to find detonation and such.


Thanks for all this info.



also 1 more question. I am using a msd 6a box as well as a timing computer that allows static timing change on the fly.
Will the multiple spark have a downfall with plasma? Which style plasma system would be more beneficial. Gotluc simpler system or gmeast transducer style system?

I will try both fo experimental purposes but wanted opinions on which to try first.

Thanks again for all the hard work and sharing so far. I will try to shed some light on this field with tuning principles and sophisticated data acquisition equipment. also if  I should post computer data log files here or host them somewhere else? Any ideas for info hosting?
I am not very internet savvy. It will be video and data log files. I will provide software to allow viewing of files.


Thanks

Rob
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: higherpoweredh2o on February 13, 2009, 10:58:24 PM
ps I have also made firestorm type plugs with tungsten style ground straps and sphere. Hopefully it helps with wear.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 14, 2009, 02:11:40 AM
Thank you for the reply gm east.  It was very informative. And will help me in my application.
----------------------------------------------------------
also 1 more question. I am using a msd 6a box as well as a timing computer that allows static timing change on the fly.
Will the multiple spark have a downfall with plasma? Which style plasma system would be more beneficial. Gotluc simpler system or gmeast transducer style system?

I will try both fo experimental purposes but wanted opinions on which to try first.

Thanks again for all the hard work and sharing so far. I will try to shed some light on this field with tuning principles and sophisticated data acquisition equipment. also if  I should post computer data log files here or host them somewhere else? Any ideas for info hosting?
I am not very internet savvy. It will be video and data log files. I will provide software to allow viewing of files.


Thanks

Rob

Hi Rob,

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to the VexUs (gmeast) as 'transducer style' ... not important.  My system is an inspired offshoot of Luc's original observations and prototypes.  Mine just 'piggyback' onto the standard spark much the way the Nexus from Sky Hero does ... but different grounding.  I'm not sure our plasma circuits can handle the frequency of multiple spark events. At present, its designed for single event ignition.  On the other hand I see no reason why proper component selection for R1 and C1 should not allow it.  There has been a consensus among those of us here, Luc and company, as well as Aaron from Energetic Forum that multiple events could take advantage of the Lorentz effect and blow the plasma out into the combustion chamber.   

Data sharing can take any form.  I think a simple link to an ftp site would work well.  Most isp accounts provide several megs if not gigs of free ftp space for personal home pages, etc.  This sharing isn't commercial so your isp should not object ... the only traffic will be those like us and it will only be download.  That's what I'm doing with some of my info'.

Greg


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: higherpoweredh2o on February 14, 2009, 03:34:34 AM
Greg,

Thanks for clearing that up. I am not an electrical engineer (obviously) I understand about enough to get dangerous. I was referring to nexus style just for initial ease of build. The multi-strike will be tried and compared to a single event ignition. I am working with many styles of technology and am combining them to re-invent the wheel with the current infrastructure. I have a fundamental understanding of an engine that very few have, and work with the mechanical aspect of that field. I am a person who cuts through the confusion with logic and a very mechanical visualization of the engines events. This approach has allowed me to make power and efficiency where others say its tapped out.

All I do is simplify the problem and take what most feel a complex solution to that problem. In reality its a very simple, logical application. Engines talk if you will, and I am in tune with their language. This is why every shop puts me in the lead diagnostic position so I get all the hard jobs. This has been frustrating but has also tuned my skills. I hope to be a part of this world changing application. The way I see an engine is the principles of using the fuel is completely backwards. We use heat to generate power, instead of harnessing the fuels we now have to create a series of explosions in a controlled environment to make heat the byproduct. We now are using power as the byproduct. Its all very simple when you break it down. We have just been lazy for the past 100 years and the current methods are out of convenience not necessity.


The really good part about my research is We should be able to fix our mpg and pollution problems with current infrastructure. We dont need redesigned engines or total electric cars. We just need to change our application norms. To me electric is not a very good solution. The lithium batts now used are a mechanics, firemans, and environmental nightmare. I have personally seen cars damn near blown in half with a battery form a hybrid. I was getting hazard pay every time I had to work on one in the shop. Something is off here.

Of course most of this opinion, but if you look at history, society,s generally jump into what looks good today without figuring out long term ramifications of tomorrow. This is where I see current green cars stand today. We can solve the problem, In my opinion, Without recreating the wheel. We just need the transmission to be in drive instead of reverse.


Enough of my thought process its time to get to work and put the " proof in the pudding"...



May GOD bless you all,

Rob


Rob
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 14, 2009, 07:42:15 AM
Greg,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for clearing that up. I am not an electrical engineer (obviously) I understand about enough to get dangerous. I was referring to nexus style just for initial ease of build. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I see an engine is the principles of using the fuel is completely backwards.

We use heat to generate power, instead of harnessing the fuels we now have to create a series of explosions in a controlled environment to make heat the byproduct.

We now are using power as the byproduct. Its all very simple when you break it down. We have just been lazy for the past 100 years and the current methods are out of convenience not necessity.

Enough of my thought process its time to get to work and put the " proof in the pudding"...

May GOD bless you all,

Rob

Hi Rob,

We seem to have the same goal ... in a sense.   I've already shown that exchanging heat for pressure by heating an inert gas (in this case steam) along with the combustion gasses you can lower the combustion and exhaust temperatures thereby reducing the heat wasted in cooling the engine.  There is a point of diminishing returns where thermal efficiency will begin to suffer but I feel we are far from that point.  Besides, you get to use existing engine design and construction. This is a less complicated exploration compared to the technical rigors involved with the alternative ... the adiabatic engine ... where you run everything RED HOT.  This presents material science challenges and involves a whole new engine design.

If you are planning to use Bob Cozzolino's Nexus circuit I would try and find the most current technical updates because the last info' posted here reported some 'cross talk' and plug wear issues.  You might consider doing the extra 'pain in the butt' work involving building the oscillator and consider the VexUs Hybrid CDI Plasma circuit.  It's been running for months without incident.  If you could provide me with the specifics of the ignition box you're planning to use ... coil voltage, event frequency and duration I could try and size R1 and C1 for the job.

Either way, good luck with your exploration of efficieny.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 14, 2009, 05:43:30 PM
I don't know if I should post this since I have concepts instead of experience, which is not so great, to be honest. But, anyway, this is how I understood the process of "piggy-backing" the standard spark (If I am wrong, please correct me, I don't want to confuse the people with my misunderstandings):

Camshaft constantly rotates the distributor shaft, and, consequently, distributor arm (we all know this is the case with most of the cars - those who have rotor arms). Before the rotor arm makes contact with one of the points, electricity in the primary winding of the ignition coil is cutoff, in order to induce high voltage pulse in the secondary winding, and that HV pulse travels through our HV spark cables to the spark plug itself and creates spark, which in turn ignites the fuel mixture.

Since this HV pulse is very similar (in it's behavior) to the capacitor dumping it's complete charge across the spark plug electrodes, we can apply so called "piggy-back" spark enhancement method on both ignition systems - CDI and coil. The charge is jumping across the electrodes, and in a short amount of time it is depleted and the spark disappears. This means that "piggy-back" method kicks in when the charge, in the automobile's standard ignition system, is reduced below the value of our dump capacitor C1. In the case of gmeast's setup the dump capacitor C1 is 410V @ 3uF (Charge Q: 1.23m Coulombs, Energy E: 252.15m Joules).

I thought we might consider making 2, 3 or 4 parallel circuits, of the same basic design, but of different power ratings:

First one to dump the charge would be the highest rated circuit, after it discharges, the second circuit would automatically kick in and release it's charge. In the end the third circuit would do the same. The downsides of this approach are multiple components (higher cost, more room for malfunctions and human error) and ever decreasing power of piggy-back spark.

If multiple spark proves to be very difficult to create, maybe we should use 60.000 Volt race ignition coils (like Krupa does), because they're "plug and play" easy to install, low resistance ignition cables + very simple CDI system (of course with Firestorms).

I know that, at this point our holy grail is multiple spark, since it will cause much less deterioration of plug material, but I am somewhat doubtful about it's feasibility. What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 14, 2009, 07:26:28 PM
Hello everybody on forum.I am new on forum.First of all,sorry for my english.I am from country were is Nikola Tesla born,Serbia.I am telecomm eng. and member of many yahoo groups.My primary job is cable satellite instalations.I read all of 256 pages of messages,and see all videos on Youtube.

Thank you very much to: Luc,Gmeast,and others who build and test Vehus plasma circuit.

On yours topics I see two types of plasma spark ignition.

1. C.D.I  capacitive discharge ignition,no powering HV coil with 12 V.Only discharge 1-3uF cap,to primary of ignition coil.Diode bank using for protect invertor or oscilator ,and add 300 V for plasma.

2.Clasic ignition,with 12 V powering HV coil,and 300 V with diodes for plasma.This second way not working with inverters,without isolating transformer.

Because I am new on this forum,I want litle help for non technical members.
I have many pwm switching mode schematic,and modern chips schematic,for automotive ignition.
On this link is good explanation of ignition principes:

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

In my laboratory I tested many modern chips and all work very well .One simplest schematic is ,with UC-3845 and IRFZ 44 modern fet transistor and small feritte transformator.For discharge Cap.may use thyristor.On gate going triger from pickup coil,breaker contact or hall sensor.

In many modern inverter use simillar chips.Oscilator in inverter running on hundred kilohertz,and transformator is much smaller then 50 or 60Hz.After trans,have diodes and 400 V cap.This diodes is In FWB.,negative point is on ground !!!!! On this point solder positive wire.Negative solder on ground PCB.Second oscilator chip and bank of transistors not use.This is for convert dc 300 V to home frequency ( 50 or 60 Hz). This is no need for exp.In empty invertor space must acomodate CDI capacitor...

This is all for begining...

If need help for technical explanation,don't hesitate to contact me.

Telecomm eng: Kole

Belgrade, Serbia

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 14, 2009, 07:43:26 PM
Hello,

This is explanation for simple circuit:


This DC-DC converter charges a 1uF capacitor at 250 volt in aprox. 1 msec. This theorically lets the CDI spark near 1000 times per second, 60,000 rpm in a single cylinder engine (1 spark per rev), 30,000 rpm rpm in a 4 cylinder engine (1 spark each 2 revs per cylinder).

Energy performance is about 85%. For example, at 12,000 rpm in a single-cylinder engine, with a 50 mJ load is equivalent to 12000/60*0.05=10 watt, with 85% performance it is equivalent to 11.8 W (1 amp)

This inverter uses a SMPS (switching mode power supply) oscillator to convert from 12 volt to 200-300 volt range. It uses the flyback topology instead of typical forward converter. When the MOSFET is activated the transformer begins to accumulate magnetic flux and a negative pulse is present (and not used) at the secondary coil.
When MOSFET is turned off, the magnetic energy stored inside transformer is converted to a positive pulse in the primary coil (and not used), close 50 volt, and thus is multiplied by the transformer ratio in the secondary (close 300 volt). This high voltage pulse is used to charge the CDI's capacitor through a high speed schottky diode.

Flyback topology lets a wider range for transformation better than forward conerter, by changing the duty cycle. In addition it prevents the "short-circuit" effect while the capacitor is not yet loaded. As in CDI schematic capacitor is continuously charging and discharging, performance is very bad with a standard forward converter. While voltage inside capacitor is low, the transformer is sawn as a shorcitcuit by the mosfet, dissipating a lot of heat.

The SMPS oscillator has two inputs:

Voltage feedback is used to reach the desired voltage, when voltage in capacitor divided in the potentiometer reachs the reference voltage, the oscillator stops.
Current sense input is normally used to control the maximum current in the mosfet. It depends on transformer inductance and oscillator frequency, but not on load.
Here, this input is used to temporary switch-off the power supply while the PIC activates the SCR to discharge capacitor. When line is 0 volt, the oscillator is ON, when line is higher than 1 volt, oscillator stops. This is done for two reasons:

1. To increase power economy, all power supplied during discharging is wasted.
2. SCR needs the current to be zero to self-disconnect. If power supply stills active, risk of permanent SCR activation exists.

Power stored in capacitor is a function of V and Capacity: E (jules)= V^2 * C.

For example: for 1uF capacitor, charged at 250 volt, E = 0.0625 J = 62.5 mJ.

Values around 50 mJ are standard, values higher than 50 mJ are high power

The last 1N4007 diode is necessary to load the capacitor with the current provided by the transformer. Please note that this current is high frequency and the small 22n capacitor at the left side of the cap. is needed to convert the high frequency of the transformer to DC because the 1N4007 diode is slow.

Kole - Serbia
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 15, 2009, 02:51:34 AM
Hello everybody on forum.I am new on forum.First of all,sorry for my english.I am from country were is Nikola Tesla born,Serbia.I am telecomm eng. and member of many yahoo groups.My primary job is cable satellite instalations.I read all of 256 pages of messages,and see all videos on Youtube.

Thank you very much to: Luc,Gmeast,and others who build and test Vehus plasma circuit.

On yours topics I see two types of plasma spark ignition.

1. C.D.I  capacitive discharge ignition,no powering HV coil with 12 V.Only discharge 1-3uF cap,to primary of ignition coil.Diode bank using for protect invertor or oscilator ,and add 300 V for plasma.

2.Clasic ignition,with 12 V powering HV coil,and 300 V with diodes for plasma.This second way not working with inverters,without isolating transformer.

Because I am new on this forum,I want litle help for non technical members.
I have many pwm switching mode schematic,and modern chips schematic,for automotive ignition.
On this link is good explanation of ignition principes:

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

In my laboratory I tested many modern chips and all work very well .One simplest schematic is ,with UC-3845 and IRFZ 44 modern fet transistor and small feritte transformator.For discharge Cap.may use thyristor.On gate going triger from pickup coil,breaker contact or hall sensor.

In many modern inverter use simillar chips.Oscilator in inverter running on hundred kilohertz,and transformator is much smaller then 50 or 60Hz.After trans,have diodes and 400 V cap.This diodes is In FWB.,negative point is on ground !!!!! On this point solder positive wire.Negative solder on ground PCB.Second oscilator chip and bank of transistors not use.This is for convert dc 300 V to home frequency ( 50 or 60 Hz). This is no need for exp.In empty invertor space must acomodate CDI capacitor...

This is all for begining...

If need help for technical explanation,don't hesitate to contact me.

Telecomm eng: Kole

Belgrade, Serbia



Hi alpeko.

Welcome and yes you are correct.  The VexUs circuit is an adaptation of Luc's original Water Sparkplug observation and prototype circuit.  The original Luc circuit was a full isolation system ... charge a cap, isolate cap, discharge cap to coil, start over.  This needs HV power SPDP switching to run.  I built one and it works but only for 200 VDC.  The VexUs is intended to ''piggyback" onto existing coil and use the standard ignition spark as the switch or conduit for the cap to initiate discharge through ... the HV diodes force the path to the spark plug instead of the easier path to ground.  Because the VexUs circuit has only one hard electrical point to tie to it needs the isolation transformer to avoid conflicts with the inverter ground ... but it blows them up anyway ... so I use a dedicated oscillator instead ... it doesn't blow up (no CMOS .. only dumb transistors).
 
Again, welcome & thanks for post. Peace,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jenkins25 on February 18, 2009, 11:07:32 PM
Hello everybody!!!

I´m new on forum and sorry for my english,I´m from spain.Since times ago I read the forum and it is very interesting and so thanks to everyone who helps the people and shows the great job you done.I have buyed one Honda CBR 1000 F "hurricane"  1989 with electric failure for mi tests.This bike has reluctor pickup (I seems that fails) TCI OKI and two double ignition coils(4 cilinders) with 3.2ohms each. I´m not electronics, but I would make one CDI plasma spark ignition for mi bike (10000 rpm and electronic advance timing) and test it with water, hho, mist...
So, the question is how begin,for example, is possible to adapt  one hall sensor like gmeast bug,because my reluctor pickup is in contact  with motor oil and I don´t know if hall sensor with oil will be ok.
One pictures my old CBR 1000 . Thanks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 18, 2009, 11:36:47 PM
Answer to Jenkins25
On this link you have many cdi for yamaha motorbike.

Best regards.

Alpeko

link:  http://www.transmic.net/
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jenkins25 on February 19, 2009, 03:56:57 PM
Thank you very much for your answer, Alpeko.

The link is very usefull and I will try to undestand the concept for make one good and powerfull CDI for the tests.

Best regards :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 19, 2009, 10:40:07 PM
To jenkins25,

My pleasure.If you have problem,don't hesitate to contact me.

Best regards to all members.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 20, 2009, 12:13:46 PM
Pozdrav Kole!

Imam Peugeot 205GT sa starim sistemom paljenja, razvodnik, razvodna kapa itd. Interesuje me da li dovoljna nadogradnja sistema paljenja kao na ovom dijagramu? Tj. da li moram da pravim, kao gmeast, sve one djavole sa tranzistorima ili je ovo dovoljno?

In English:

Hi Kole,

I have a Peugeot 205GT with an old-school ignition system, distributor, distributor cap etc. I want to know whether it's enough to add this circuti from a diagram to my ignition system? In other words, do I have to make the circuit as gmeast did, with all the transistors and stuff?

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5928/plasmaeg3.jpg

Description:

Transformer has 1:50 ratio, so it's a step up transformer. It turns 12V from battery to 600V. After that comes the capacitor bank (6 caps) - 630V 1uF (one micro Farad). Then comes the 500ohm resistor, and after that, another 630V 1uF dump capacitor. It goes through 3 microwave oven diodes (12kV) that are connected in parallel, and after that the (+) wire is split in 4 sections and connected to the distributor cap, one for each sparkplug.

Do I need something more here or is this enough?
Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 20, 2009, 06:59:35 PM
For demios,

Na mojoj semi je Motorolin chip na koji se spaja triger od zavojnice za okidanje tranzistora,koji napajaju bobinu.U principu to ti menja razvodnik,i elektronskim putem prekida primar bobine.

Ovo sto mi pokusavamo da napravimo je usteda goriva pomocu dodavanja napona 300-500 V,koji uz pomoc visokog napona stvara efekat plazme na svecici.Dodavanjem vode u obliku pare(magle),u usisnu granu smanjuje se potrosnja goriva.Gmeast kaze da je na svojoj bubi ustedeo i do 50 %.
Za koji dan ja zavrsavam svoj plasma spark sistem,pa cu da isprobam.

Pozdrav svima.
Alpeko - Kole


In english:

On my schematic diagram is Motorola chip,which is uses for electronic ignition in a cars.
This,what we're trying to make is "fuel saving" with adding 300-500V on ignition plug ,and try to make plasma efect.

Gmeast say that his  VW bugs save fuel for about 50 % with simple oscilator and diode bank.
I working on my CDI plasma ignition system,and I test this in couple days.

Best regards to all on forum.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 20, 2009, 08:10:55 PM
For alpeko,

Znam da pokusavas da zamenis razvodnik, ali ja ne bih jer to podrazumeva mnogo posla (osim za one koji vec imaju elektronski razodnik). Mislio sam da upotrebim neku vrstu plazma sistema kao sto je revizal uradio na svom mopedu i dzipu, ali nisam sasvim vican elektronici, pa sam pitao da li moje kolo moze da vrsi posao ? Poslednji kondenzator moze da izbaci maksimalno 200 mJ energije, sto je dosta, s obzirom da standardna varnica ima oko 50mJ (ako sam dobro procitao), ali nisam siguran da li banka od 6 kondenzatora iste vrednosti (ukupno 630V 6uF) moze da prati ritam punjenja/praznjenja koje motor diktira...tako da je moje pitanje bilo u tom smeru upuceno :D

Ja sam vec 2 godine u celoj ovoj prici sa vodenom maglom, HHO, plazmom i GEET sistemom, tako da znam sta pokusavaju da urade ;) Ali, mislim da oni previse energije izbacuju iz C1 (dump cap) i da to ima za posledicu brze trosenje svecica. Sta ti mislis?

English:

I know you're trying to do with ignition system, but I thought I might try a simple circuit since I have and old ignition system, more like revizal did it, you know, simple circuit. In my schematic the dump cap can eject maximally 200mJ, which is a lot if you bare in mind that standard spark has only 50mJ (if I'm not mistaking). But, I was not sure whether the cap bank of 6 caps (total of 630V 6uF) can follow the pace of charge/discharge dictated by the engine? So my Q was in that direction :D

I'm in this whole story for 2 years, now, with HHO, water fog, plasma, GEET, so I know what they're trying to achieve here ;) But I think, they're using too much power from C1, which causes the plugs to wear faster. What do you think (and the rest of you guys)?

Best wishes to all!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 21, 2009, 02:02:56 AM
For demios,

Reci mi odakle si ti demios.Ja sam iz Beograda.I ja nista ne pokusavam.Ja sam inzinjer telekomunikacija i bavim se satelitskim i kablovskim sistemima vise od 30 godina profesionalno.
Automobili i jaka struja nisu moj interes.Ovu sam semu postavio,kao i neki link za onog spanca iznad sto trazi za motor CDI.Kad pises "poslednji kondenzator moze da izbaci maksimalno 200mJ...", ne znam na koju semu mislis.Pitao si me za pezo, da li ono kolo moze da zameni tvoje paljenje.Energija u mJ je E=1/2 C*V^2.Znaci napon je sa kvadratom.Veci napon je bolje.MSD CDI ide na oko 500V.
Dodavanjem niskog napona(300_500) volti sa 30-45KV na svecici ,stvara se efekat plazme.Vodena para na samoj svecici se pretvara u vodonik i kiseonik i sagoreva.Ili mi mislimo da je tako ? Konkretne efekte i ustede tek treba dokazati.Krajnji cilj je direktno ubrizgavanje vode i sagorevanje pomocu plazme.Kao sto su radili Mayer i Puharic.Dobro si primetio da je 6uF malo previse.Svi moderni CDI sistemi koriste oko 1uF ali na naponu 300 - 500V. Sto veca struja na svecici vise se trose.Sto je veci napon manje se trose...Veca energija vise  steti svecici.Sto se tice ritma punjenja i praznjenja,sve se moze izracunati...Ako ti nesto konkretno treba , ja sam tu.

Pozdrav

In english: Serbian traslated

This schematic I posted for my spanish motorbike friend,who asked for substitute CD ignition.I explain plasma efect on spark plug,and voltages on CD ignition.I think that simple oscilator from gmeast,on this moment, is very best for testing efect on spark plug.CDI and invertors is more complicated and must have knowledge for building this.Inverter without isolated transformer,don't working.Because chip in output oscilator,protect inverter ,and shut down.Hand made osc, is very best.

Regards
Alpeko


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 21, 2009, 04:09:18 AM
I ja sam iz Beograda, izvinjavam se sto se nisam lepo predstavio. Zovem se Dimitrije i studiram prava, ali me alternativna energija i ovakve zanimacije jako interesuju.

Sto se tice seme, evo ga link za semu koju sam nacrtao, samo kliknite:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5928/plasmaeg3.jpg

Ona je uradjena prema revizalovom sistemu koji je ugradio u svoj Nissan Terrano, tako da je sema funkcionalna, ali sam ja dodao 630V kondenzatore umesto jednog velikog 250V 47uF.

Na ovoj adresi ima da se izracuna koliko dzula sadrzi kondenzator: http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php Pa sam shvatio da mi je 630V 1uF (198.45 mJ) sasvim dovoljno. Princip rada mi je jasan, kao i to sa vodom i vodonikom. Postavio sam vam pitanje, vise iz nesigurnosti nego iz neznanja i neshvatanja principa rada i instalacije sistema. Posto sam poceo da se edukujem o elektronici pomocu stapa i kanapa nisam siguran uvek u svoj sud. :D

Sada sam zakljucio da mi ne treba OSC, vec prosto kolo. Voleo bih da mi objasnite kako da izracunam ritam punjenja i praznjenja.

Hvala unapred.

English:

I'm also from Belgrade, pardon me for not introducing myself. My name is Dimitrije and I study law, but am very interested in free energy and such.

As far as the schematic goes, here it is:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5928/plasmaeg3.jpg

It's basically Revizal's circuit but with different capacitors, like the one he put on his Nissan Terrano.
On this address http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php you can calculate the energy of a capacitor, so that is what I used when I decided to use 630V 1uF dump cap instead of 250V 47uF cap. The Q I asked you was more a consequence of my lack of certainty in my electronic skills, than my misunderstanding of the principles of work.

I realized now, that I do not need OSC, so I'll use a simple circuit. BTW, can you explain to me how to calculate the charge/discharge rate and energy needed?

Best wishes, Dimitrije.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 21, 2009, 10:32:54 AM
For demios,

Ok Dimitrije,

Trebao si odmah da kazes.Vidim da si ti dobro ovo proucio.Na ovom linku imas objasnjeno kako se kondezator puni i prazni.


http://us.tdk-lambda.com/hp/pdfs/application%20notes/93008500rC.pdf

In english:

On this link is some explanation about capacitor charge and,stored energy and times to ch/disch.


Best regards.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jenkins25 on February 21, 2009, 09:13:25 PM
Thanks Alpeco!!!

First I just order a new pickup reluctor for my bike, because mine is not good (no flow current after push starter motor button).I´m not sure but I think
reluctor has 2 signals at 12 and 36 degrees.
I´m not if  I will be able to make your circuit, because electronics is a unknown world for my but I will try.I need your advice, where can I buy this circuit list of components,online or a phisical electronics shop?
I don´t know if in a electronics shop I´ll find input comparator with histeresis, dwell reference buffer, current limit sense etc. My bike has 12V  battery, 2 double coils for 4 cilinders. Also in my country we have 220 Vac.

Best regards and thanks for you patience. :) :) :)



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 22, 2009, 01:48:06 AM
For jenkins25,

Ok no problem for help.But,you must first off all check where is a mistake in yours CD ignition.You must measure voltages from alternator,reluctor (triger for cdi),12V battery, and other electronic circuits.When you locate what is a wrong,then no problem for replace.If you don't know where buy components,ask mr.google.

Best reg.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 23, 2009, 04:18:27 AM
update illustration of VexUs 6.2

Hi all,

Thought I'd post a more complete illustration of the exact VexUs circuit I been running in my Bug.

Greg

Hey Stefan, when are we going to be able to post pictures again?

Here's the link:
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_6_2.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 23, 2009, 09:28:47 AM
Thank you Alpeko for that link, it helps!

@gmeast

Am I understanding this right - your voltage multiplier is consisted of 8 caps (each rated at 100fm 400V !!!) and 2 diodes (1000V 3A) ? If I am reading this right that would mean that you have 800uF 630V capacitor bank there. Which turns to be 158.76 Joules of energy. And your dump cap is 168.1 mJ. So, the ratio between the two is 100:1. I'm asking you this because it would mean that my cap bank of 6 x 1uF 630V caps is not nearly enough to supply my 1uF 630V dump cap (6:1 ratio). So, did you use this ratio on purpose, or is it arbitrary? Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 23, 2009, 07:24:33 PM
Thank you Alpeko for that link, it helps!

@gmeast

Am I understanding this right - your voltage multiplier is consisted of 8 caps (each rated at 100fm 400V !!!) and 2 diodes (1000V 3A) ? If I am reading this right that would mean that you have 800uF 630V capacitor bank there. Which turns to be 158.76 Joules of energy. And your dump cap is 168.1 mJ. So, the ratio between the two is 100:1. I'm asking you this because it would mean that my cap bank of 6 x 1uF 630V caps is not nearly enough to supply my 1uF 630V dump cap (6:1 ratio). So, did you use this ratio on purpose, or is it arbitrary? Thanks in advance!

Hi Alpeko,

The multiplier cap (bank) size started out as just two caps ... simplest form, but I noticed that as the frequency (engine RPM) increased the output voltage of the doubler would 'sag' but the output of the oscillator transformer did not.  So I began to increase the number of caps until the dynamics were more acceptable.  It still sags from no-load to 4000 RPM by almost 65 VDC ... but that's acceptable.  There are better voltage multiplier designs that do very good jobs of regulating ...this is the crudest design.

...hope this answers,

Did I post the updated oscillator picture here?

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 23, 2009, 07:41:04 PM
update illustration of VexUs 6.2

Hi all,

Thought I'd post a more complete illustration of the exact VexUs circuit I been running in my Bug.

Greg

Hey Stefan, when are we going to be able to post pictures again?

Here's the link:
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/VexUs_6_2.jpg


I don't know if I ever posted the exact oscillator circuit w/ values and all here ... just in case here it is.  It is what is powering the VexUs circuit

Greg

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/better.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 23, 2009, 10:38:37 PM
For gmeast,

Thank you for posting oscilator circuit.In my country standard for mains voltage is 220V/50Hz.
I want use 2x12V/220V~ transformer.How much power is enough for transformer in VA.Did you measure curent and total power.My idea is : increase secundar voltage to 250 - 300 V,because I have possibility for wind new transformer.I not planing use voltage multiplier.

Thank you

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 24, 2009, 01:01:09 AM
For gmeast,

Thank you for posting oscilator circuit.In my country standard for mains voltage is 220V/50Hz.
I want use 2x12V/220V~ transformer.How much power is enough for transformer in VA.Did you measure curent and total power.My idea is : increase secundar voltage to 250 - 300 V,because I have possibility for wind new transformer.I not planing use voltage multiplier.

Thank you

Alpeko.

Hi Alpeko,

The PF 24-10 is a 24VA transformer ... so what you are planning should work well I think. However, the oscillator's frequency of operation will still depend on testing various capacitors to hit a target frequency .. whatever you choose, but I would still try to keep it between 60 and 100 Hz ... my feeling.

Greg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 24, 2009, 11:31:46 AM
For gmeast,

Thank you very much for info about transformer.On Panacea I see diferent inverter power.My opinion is that 50W is enough for CDI plasma.When I testing " pigybacked" hybrid plasma,my spark gap is only 1-2mm with Bosch ignition coil.When I testing CDI only,4.7 uF cap charged on 350 V and discharged on coil, spark is much bigger,about 10 -12 mm.And plasma efect is better.I must reverse HV diodes (35 pcs of 1N5408) in this mode.With or without protecting diodes, spark is 10 mm.With join diodes plasma efect starting.When I testing stock ignition,only negative voltage produce spark and plasma.ON this mode I must reverse polarity of cap and HV diodes.Spark gap or spark is only 1-2 mm.In both tests is same cap 4.7uF/400V electrolytic.What you think about high voltage diferences ?

Thank you.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 24, 2009, 04:18:56 PM
For gmeast,

Thank you very much for info about transformer.On Panacea I see diferent inverter power.My opinion is that 50W is enough for CDI plasma.When I testing " pigybacked" hybrid plasma,my spark gap is only 1-2mm with Bosch ignition coil.When I testing CDI only,4.7 uF cap charged on 350 V and discharged on coil, spark is much bigger,about 10 -12 mm.And plasma efect is better.I must reverse HV diodes (35 pcs of 1N5408) in this mode.With or without protecting diodes, spark is 10 mm.With join diodes plasma efect starting.When I testing stock ignition,only negative voltage produce spark and plasma.ON this mode I must reverse polarity of cap and HV diodes.Spark gap or spark is only 1-2 mm.In both tests is same cap 4.7uF/400V electrolytic.What you think about high voltage diferences ?

Thank you.

Alpeko

HiAlpeko,

You are in the 'smart range' for your Cap size and voltage ... 1uF - 4uF for 300 - 500 VDC.  As far as changing all of the polarities around, it makes it a different circuit for the piggyback version.  Sounds much like the Nexus now ... see Sky Hero' Nexus circuit for that.  I only have worked with my VexUs circuit and gotoluc's original CDI version of the Water Spark Plug... no cross-talk issues.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 24, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
Hi gmeast,

Yes, in modern cd ignition system is 1uF capacitor,and 300-500 Volts.But my target is working plasma.
For this I want testing diferent circuits.In this moment I don't know which system is the best.Yours experiences and others who build and test plasma spark is very valuable for me.

Thank you again Greg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 24, 2009, 11:45:48 PM
Hi gmeast,

Yes, in modern cd ignition system is 1uF capacitor,and 300-500 Volts.But my target is working plasma.
For this I want testing diferent circuits.In this moment I don't know which system is the best.Yours experiences and others who build and test plasma spark is very valuable for me.

Thank you again Greg.

Alpeko

Hi Alpeko,

Higher values for the caps gives a very good plasma spark but very bad spark plug wear.  For the same number of Joules, high voltage and small cap gives a much better plasma spark than lower voltage bigger cap.  That is why I use 1uF - 2uF and 400VDC.  The VexUs circuit has never been put on an electronic ignition system so be careful.  It also has never failed to operate.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 25, 2009, 12:08:32 AM
progress

Hi all,

Finally got re-focused. Since the route I wanted to take with steam 'ingestion', which really should be steam 'injection', is out of practical range not only for me but most everyone else too, I have opted to just go for ultra-high humidity (as an amplification of the 'drip' system I have now) and not try and keep the steam super hot. In this way I can continue with something similar to what I really want to do and also keep testing the plugs and circuitry. I've been stalled long enough. Time to get movin' again.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 25, 2009, 12:38:29 AM
Hi Greg,

Yes I know that.Simple circuit is always safe.Like you, I think that injection of cold fog and enough plasma spark is a way to water powered cars ?

Reg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on February 26, 2009, 07:33:19 PM
Hello everybody..!!

I have just finished the construction of Greg's oscillator.
I haven't got a transformer like greg's (2x10 to 110) but I plan to use 2 identical transformers connected in series. 12 volts to 220 each,
and the central collector will be the connection between the transformers.

Take a look at the board.:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zissischiotis/3312023452/sizes/l/
I couldn't find 50Ω resistors so i used 47Ω @ 5W. I think that it is still fine.!
On the right you can see the 12V input leads, and upper you can see the output leads with oscillated 12V.

This weekend I am going at my home-village to make "Unity" turn with water.
I hope I am going to make it.!!

Regards,
Zissis  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 26, 2009, 09:35:02 PM
Hi djzissis,

Very smart idea.Higher voltage is better.I also want make one osc. with 2x12/230V,because in my country 220 V ~ is mains standard.When testing your plasma spark,please post on this forum experiments result.

This mpg improvements is very important parameter for other members.

Thank you again, and all the best.

Alpeko
.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on February 26, 2009, 10:07:22 PM
Hi djzissis,

Very smart idea.Higher voltage is better.I also want make one osc. with 2x12/230V,because in my country 220 V ~ is mains standard.When testing your plasma spark,please post on this forum experiments result.

This mpg improvements is very important parameter for other members.

Thank you again, and all the best.

Alpeko
.

Hi there friend Apleko.!!

Also my country's mains power is 230VAC. I have already constructed the greg's plasma circuit and ran a 2 -stroke engine on that. Search the forum some pages before for my posts, or go to my youtube channel ( www.youtube.com/djzissis ) and watch all my progress so far.

I am not going to post about mpg (miles per gallon) because:
My country does not meter on gallons, but liters
also does not meter on miles but kilometers.
And, I am not going to use it on a car.!!!

(just kidding ;D )

"Unity" is a small 6,5 bhp (honda gx200 clone) four stroke engine, I bought a couple of months ago, with only reason to test the plasma circuit on, and make her run on water.!!
So I am going to start with alcohol and plasma spark first. Then add some water, and see the progress. And so on.

By the way, are you in Europe.? I am from Greece.!!
Any explanation you need, you can send me a P.M. and have a talk there.!

Greetings,
Zissis  ;D

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on February 26, 2009, 10:12:20 PM
@ Greg

Greg.... I would like to ask you something..!

How many watts does the oscillator draw on full load.?
I am going to test some capacity range on the plasma circuit (after the resistor) and I don't want to burn out the oscillator....  ;D

I thing I am going to test from 1μF to 10 or more μF.

What do you say.?

Thanks in advance, and all the best,
Zissis!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 26, 2009, 10:37:34 PM
Hi djzissis,

Yes, I know that in your country Greece mains power is 220 V~,like mine in Serbia-Belgrade.
Mpg is slang word from forum.Liter per km for my is better.Or liter per 100Km is much better !!!!
I am telecomm eng,and for me not need explanation.I only need practical testing in cars.I want build one inverter circuit with SG-3525 and two IRFZ-44N transistors.In answer to my Greg say that transformer have 24 VA only.I testing in my desk lab.plasma cdi with positive side of protected diodes conected to + 370 V of inverter,and negative on spark plug.I charge 4.7uF and discharge on Bosch ign.coil.In this exp. I produce very nice plasma.Gap is about 3-5mm on spark plug.When I conect circuit to Gregs hybrid plasma circuit,and reverse diodes,cap and polarity plasma not work ? I thik because my inverter haven't isolated output,and not posible reverse polarity.

For that I planing build one for testing.

Best reg.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 27, 2009, 12:52:02 AM
@ Greg

Greg.... I would like to ask you something..!

How many watts does the oscillator draw on full load.?
I am going to test some capacity range on the plasma circuit (after the resistor) and I don't want to burn out the oscillator....  ;D

I thing I am going to test from 1μF to 10 or more μF.

What do you say.?

Thanks in advance, and all the best,
Zissis!!

Hi Zis,

The transformer I'm using is rated for 24 VA, but that is for its normal use as a step down transformer but I use that anyway even for it turned around in our use here.  As long as I can cool the 3055 transistors and the transformer I can draw continuous 36 Watts.  It is running at around 90 Hz. I am going to play around with different caps soon to see If I can optimize and find the best frequency for this transformer and load.

On the test bench I am consuming 60 Watts for 48 Watts output.  Not bad for such a simple circuit.  At rest the circuit draws 12 Watts

On your proto-board ... the double rows upper and lower are just isolated groups of 5 contacts, or are they 8 separate right-left busses, 2 lower right & left and 2 upper right & left?

Best,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 27, 2009, 01:32:49 AM
OOOOOPPPPPPS !

a correction ... I stated in my earlier post the circuit draws 120 Watts at rest ... that was supposed to be 12 Watts ... I can't multiply.  I also corrected the original post.

Thanks,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Kevin Mc Carthy on February 27, 2009, 03:12:45 AM
I have built a medium voltage to high voltage circuit and would like some advise as to what direction to go. I use a fluorescent ballast 660 V output through a variable HV inductor to charge a cap 20 MF 660V through a SPDT switch (NC). Upon a low voltage pulse the SPDT switch discharges the CAP 660 V 20 MF to a step up automotive coil ( designed for 12v to 20,000V upon field collapse). The discharge of the TX goes through 2 spark plugs ( Bosh 4 prong ) opposed with a varing distance placed on a ceramic glazed plate. Next I used a 20,000 .0026 pF cap in series with 400ohm 40 watt resisters.

I get two different sparks when water has been sprayed, one type when the plugs are close together ( 1/2) inch apart which is a bright yellow red, pop and healthy plasma. The second is when the plugs are say 5 inches apart which is blue white, no burst hydroloysis, no loud pop. The latter plasma goes along the ceramic over the water molicules.

The former plasma is thick and a high density, yellow red and has a pop, lower voltage and higher amperage. The latter plasma has a much higher voltage ( funny but painful story), blue white, no noise, lower density filiment, thinner filiment.

Each discharge either type one or type two are 3.5 watts each. I believe voltage and amperage are very important to achieve burst hydroloysis. So there must be a maximum per wattage and an optimum per wattage.

What direction to go? Do I continue to find the optimum and maximum or do I do experiments to use the burst hydrolysis in another way?. I am going a different path then as a car sourch of energy and I would like any insight or suggestion, thank you.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on February 27, 2009, 06:32:23 AM
Hi Zis,

The transformer I'm using is rated for 24 VA, but that is for its normal use as a step down transformer but I use that anyway even for it turned around in our use here. 

Greg it's OK.!! a transformer can be used in both ways. Step up, or step down.... it's the same.!!


Quote
As long as I can cool the 3055 transistors and the transformer I can draw continuous 36 Watts.  It is running at around 90 Hz. I am going to play around with different caps soon to see If I can optimize and find the best frequency for this transformer and load.

On the test bench I am consuming 60 Watts for 48 Watts output.  Not bad for such a simple circuit.  At rest the circuit draws 12 Watts

Although I don't have an oscilloscope or a frequency meter, to gauge output frequency, I metered the idle current.
With no load, not even the transformer on, I am having 160mA @ 11,5 V at input.
that means 1,84 watts on idle, without any transformer.

Very nice Greg..!! Excellent circuit.!! I thing the 3055 can handle more (115W)

Quote
On your proto-board ... the double rows upper and lower are just isolated groups of 5 contacts, or are they 8 separate right-left busses, 2 lower right & left and 2 upper right & left?

On the board, it's the second you said.: The two raws are from right to left, isolated where the black line is.
This way we have, 8 raws from right to left. 2 upper left. 2 upper right. 2 lower left, and 2 lower right.

Thanks you very very much Greg.!! Very nice results.!!

Regards,
Zissis  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 27, 2009, 03:32:39 PM
I was thinking something....is it possible to somehow use a simple circuit to increase the 12V going into the primary of the ignition coil to 16V? That way we'll achieve +33% power input to the primary of the (stock) ignition coil and +33% to the spark itself. This would be especially nice with one of those 60.000V racing coils. What do you guys think of this approach?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 27, 2009, 08:22:12 PM
Zdravo demios,

Nije problem pomocu bilo kog dc/dc convertera napraviti koliki hoces napon.Ali sta ce ti to.Za plazmu je dovoljan visoki napon samo da jonizuje gap i stvori provodni kanal.Sve ostalo radi niski napon a velike struje.Ako hocemo da napravimo kola na vodu,razmisljaj u tom smeru.


In english:

Not problem obtain higher dc voltage.With simple dc/dc converter this job is easy.For plasma efect on spark plug HV about 15 - 30 KV is enough for build ionised channel.Rest of job working LV but higher amperage.You must thinking in that way?

Best reg.to all.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 27, 2009, 09:15:09 PM
Hvala Alpeko, sada mi je jasnije. Usput, da li cu brze napuniti kondenzator sa niskom voltazom i visokom amperazom ili obrnuto? Tj. kako cu brze da ga napunim?

Hvala na odgovoru!

Thank you for explanation Alpeko! It makes much more sense now. By the way, do I need higher current in order to fill-up the capacitor or higher voltage? Which way do I fill the cap faster?

Thank you for the answer!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 27, 2009, 09:43:40 PM
For demios:

      Tc =0.5×Cload ×Vcharge×Vrated/Ppeak

Calculating Charge Time (Tc)
Using the peak power rating of the power supply, charge time Tc can be calculated using equation 1 below.
Where;
Tc - load charge time in seconds
Ppeak - unit peak power rating in J/sec
Cload - load capacitance in Farads
Vcharge - load charge voltage in volts
Vrated - power supply rating in volts
In many applications the load charge voltage (Vcharge) and the power supply rated voltage (Vrated) will be the same, but it is important
to use equation 1 if the load is charged to a voltage less than the power supply rating, otherwise an incorrect charge time will be calculated.

Best reg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 27, 2009, 10:26:34 PM
Hi all,    Down is litle theory from me.  For explanation only.


Which is the best equation to use?
Want to know: load capacitor charge time.
Already know: load capacitance, the charge voltage, the power supply rated voltage, power supply peak power rating.
Equation to use: 1
Want to know: supply peak power required for my application.
Already know: load capacitance, the charge voltage, the power supply rated voltage, desired charge time.
Equation to use: 2
Want to know: supply average power required for my application.
Already know: load capacitance, the charge voltage, the power supply rated voltage, and the repetition rate.
Equation to use: 3
Want to know: maximum repetition rate possible in my application*.
Already know: load capacitance, the charge voltage, the power supply rated voltage, and the supply average power rating.
Equation to use: 4
Want to know: peak charge current for a given supply.
Already know: the power supply rated voltage and peak power rating.
Equation to use: 5
Want to know: load capacitor charge time.
Already know: the load capacitor charge voltage, the load capacitance,
peak charging current.
Equation to use: 6



Tc =0.5×Cload ×Vcharge×Vrated /  Ppeak         . . . . . . . . . . . equation 1     




Ppeak =0.5×Cload ×Vcharge×Vrated/Tc              . . . . . . . . . . equation 2             



Pav =0.5×Cload ×Vcharge×Vrated×Reprate                   . . . . . equation 3



Reprate= Pav  /  0.5×Cload ×Vcharge×Vrated          . . . . . . . . equation 4



Icharge= 2×Ppeak /Vrated                              . . . . . . . . . . . . . equation 5




Tc=Cload×Vcharge/Icharge                             . . . . . . . . . . . . equation 6


            Alpeko            
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on February 27, 2009, 10:26:51 PM
Thanks again Alpeko !!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 28, 2009, 06:23:20 AM
Hvala Alpeko, sada mi je jasnije. Usput, da li cu brze napuniti kondenzator sa niskom voltazom i visokom amperazom ili obrnuto? Tj. kako cu brze da ga napunim?

Hvala na odgovoru!

Thank you for explanation Alpeko! It makes much more sense now. By the way, do I need higher current in order to fill-up the capacitor or higher voltage? Which way do I fill the cap faster?

Thank you for the answer!

Hi demios,

Charging a capacitor is a POWER issue.  You can have all the current in the world but a cap won't charge without a voltage potential to drive the current.   You need a voltage potential and current generating capacity to keep up with the charge rate.  They go together.  Capacitor characteristics are expressed in "Joules"  and defined as 1/2C X V^2 or ' the voltage squared times the capacitance divided by two.  It is one of electrical power's mechanical counterparts.  Kinetic energy is defined similarly ... 1/2 M X V^2 or 'the velocity squared times the mass divided by two.  A very similar statement goes for energy in the famous E= M C^2 or 'energy equals Mass time the speed of light squared' ... everything is the same as everything else the closer you look.

Greg 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 28, 2009, 02:58:59 PM
Hi Greg,

Yes it is theory.Please give us more practical experiences about increasig mpg, or how much you improve mpg.Which method is practical for water injection ?Did you test which point is better for conect protecting diodes.On side spark plugs,or on distributor.And how many diodes need.In my test on desk I conect only 5-8 pcs  1N 5408 without problem ?? I think that one diode per kilovolt is enough,but working(on test desk),on couple diodes ? 
If you conect 300V on distributor side did you change HV cables? If you use solid wire HV cables,RFI is much higher ?Did you think about noise supresion circuit?And my last question:How much plasma in practical improve mpg,in percent ??

Thank you again.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on February 28, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
Hi Greg,

Yes it is theory.Please give us more practical experiences about increasig mpg, or how much you improve mpg.Which method is practical for water injection ?Did you test which point is better for conect protecting diodes.On side spark plugs,or on distributor.And how many diodes need.In my test on desk I conect only 5-8 pcs  1N 5408 without problem ?? I think that one diode per kilovolt is enough,but working(on test desk),on couple diodes ? 
If you conect 300V on distributor side did you change HV cables? If you use solid wire HV cables,RFI is much higher ?Did you think about noise supresion circuit?And my last question:How much plasma in practical improve mpg,in percent ??

Thank you again.

Alpeko.


Hi Alpeko,

I trust you read the entire thread.  I used my Vexus circuit with 375 - 400 VDC Cap voltage and the exact circuits I posted.  I have one TVS on the oscillator board to protect things  I sucked in steam with the intake air.  I got 36 MPG. I used to get only 25 MPG.  The factory says only 31 MPG.   The steam comes from water dripping on part of the exhaust and being sucked up with another tube to the carburetor.  Pictures below:

I use solid spark plug wires.  The distributor side is only 12 V. The voltage on the other side of the NTE517 HV diodes is 385 - 410 VDC.  It is a regular spark that fires and then the plasma current jumps across the gap conditioned by the original standard coil spark.  The NTE517 diodes are 15KV x 0.535 A ... so I use four in parallel.

This was on the test bench first and  now in the car since last year ... several months now.  Like I said the power requirement of the oscillator, multiplier and R1 current limiter is based on the Joules it takes to charge C1 capacitor at max frequency ... max RPM. 

This is not just theory ... this is engineering and practical application ... already done ... proven ... finished a long time now.  Go to YouTube and type in "gmeast" and you will see 22 videos of the work I've done on this up until today starting with the original Water Spark Plug replication.

I hope this helps your experimenting,

Greg

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam1.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam2.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam3.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam4.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam5.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/steam6.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/wick.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on February 28, 2009, 05:18:28 PM
Hi Greg,

Thank you very much for nice answer. I see all yours videos on youtube,and reading all on Panacea.

Many members try to replicate your circuit,and testing on cars.I am very grateful for your practical application of Vehus circuit on car.Your work is very encourage for me.

Thank you Greg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on March 01, 2009, 04:45:49 PM
Alpeko,
imam malo pitanje vezano za komponente koje sam odabrao na sajtu Radio Kluba (sada se zovu Kelco). Evo su komponente:

http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mat3.jpg

Dakle, pitanje je da li je, iz vaseg iskustva, ELKO 100/450 RHT zaista 100 microF, 450V? Pitam vas jer u opisu na sajtu Radio kluba stoji ovo "Elko, stojeći (RAD), 105ř, 100ćF, 450V, 22X35mm, RM10" i kosta samo 300 dinara! Ako je to to (450V, 100microF) onda sam na konju, a vama dodjem turu pica :D Planiram da ga koristim za skladistenje energije (capacitor bank), koja ce onda ici kroz otpornike od 470 ili 510 Ohm (ne mogu da ih nadjem u vrednosti od 50W, pa sam mislio da vezem 10 otpornika od po 5 Ohm paralelno) do dump kondenzatora od 1.5microF 400V (u katalogu se zove CR75 1.5MF), pa onda kroz diode (20x 1N5408) do razvodne kape (necu da kacim zicu direktno na svecice, jer su tesko pristupacne).

For Alpeko:
One small question, this is the screenshot of the components I want to order for my plasma circuit:
http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mat3.jpg

Little explanation for non Serbian readers:

CR75 1.5MF is a capacitor, 1500.0 nF, 400V RM27.5, MKP, 10% (I will use it as a dump cap, AKA "C1")
ELKO 100/450 RHT is also a capacitor made by Elko (Czech), standing capacitor (RAD), 105*C, 100uF, 450V, 22X35mm, RM10 (I'm not sure this one is 100uF because it's really cheap - only 3.2 euros)
1N5408 is a silicone diode, SI-D 1000V 3A/200Ap
5W 470R is a resistor, 470 Ohm, 5W, Wire, 5% (I thought of using 10 of these in parallel because I can't find a singe 500 Ohm 50W resistor. BTW, will this work?)

The question is: Is ELKO 100/450 RHT capacitor what the catalogue says it is, and, from your experience, is it suitable for plasma circuit. I'm asking you this because it costs only 3.2 euros, and apparently it has 100 microF and 450 Volts! I thought it might have been a mistake in their catalogue or that it's some kind of a misunderstanding from my part. If it indeed is what I think it is, I owe you a round of drink :D

I plan to use it as a capacitor bank. The charge will then go through 470 or 510 Ohm resistor(s) (I can't find a singe 500 Ohm 50W resistor so I thought I could use 10x5W 500 Ohm in parallel),  to the dump cap (C1) 1.5microF 400V, and finally through the diodes (20x 1N5408) to the distributor.

Thanks a lot for help and patience everybody!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on March 01, 2009, 07:05:08 PM
Zdravo Demios,

Jeste to je 100uF/450V,a ono 105 je stepeni celsijusa.To je isto vrlo bitna karakteristika za elektrolite,do koje temp mogu da se zagreju a da ne eksplodiraju.

Sto se tice otpornika ako ih vezujes paralelno,istina je povecaces im snagu ali ces im smanjiti otpornost.Dva otpornika od 5 oma vezana paralelno od 5 W su  isto kao i 2,5 oma 10 W.Ako ih vezes redno snaga im ostaje ista ali se otpornost sabira.U tom slucaju bi imao 2x5=10 oma ali i dalje 5 W.

Ja ovih dana planiram da napravim profesionalno multispark CDI na profesionalnoj plocici,koju projektujem u softweru Altium designer,pa cemo se cuti.Ja inace imam dosta uredjaja koje sam proizvodim.

Pozdrav

Alpeko - Kole.

Little explanation for non Serbian readers:

 ELKO 100/450 RHT yes realy 100 uF/ 450V,105 mean 105 celsius,1N5408 is a silicone diode, SI-D 1000V 3A/200Ap,for protection LV from HV.

For paralel resistor wiring power is multiply,but resistance is divide.For series resistors wiring power stay same as one resistor,but resistance is adding.

I have planning to make professional  multispark CDI ,and working on PCB in Altium designer software.I have some of electronic equipment who is build yourself.
I designing many PCB with Protel DXP software.This software have electronic simulator for circuits.


Best reg.

Alpeko.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on March 01, 2009, 08:35:26 PM
Excellent Alpeko, thank you very much! I thought there would be problems with resistors, it sounded too easy :) Nevertheless, I think I'll be able to find some scrap resistor or new one in one of the electronics TV/VIDEO services around. I can't wait to see how your CDI will work! Best of luck!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on March 03, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
Hi everybody..!!

A couple of hours I came back from my home-village.
I have good and semi-good news.!!
The good news is that the plasma circuit is now fully installed on "Unity"
It was encouraging that the exhaust fumes, running on gasoline, had no smell at all.

Check at the video I captured. (really sorry for the shaking camera)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piR4fqOVDDg


Now the other news.... ( more important )
After this video,
I found a plastic bottle, and filled with tap water. Took out the carburetor, and put some water into the intake.
THE ENGINE STARTED WITH THE FIRST PULL
and after 25-30 revs it died. (Just like Capacitor's 70 video.) The combustion chamber was full of water and the engine stuck....  :(
Immediately i took out the spark-plug, and emptied the combustion chamber and ran it again with gasoline until any water boiled and the engine was clean.
Everything OK now.
The bad thing is that I didn't have enough time to do it again and record it to video.
I promise next time to make it run, record it, and maybe I will use the carburetor to merge the water intake and not stuck it again.  ;D

That's all for now.!!
More progress to come....
I want to thank you all from my entire heart, for all the work we are doing together here at overunity.
85% of the job is already done from all of us.!!


Thanks again,
All the best to you all,
Zissis :)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on March 03, 2009, 04:48:38 PM
@djzissis

Excellent results buddy! Maybe you overflowed the engine with water, maybe you should have used the I.V. dripping system, like gmeast did. That would have significantly reduced the amount of water in the engine. Either way, experimenting is more worth than any theory. That's why your work is precious to all of us. Thank you again!

@Alpeko

This is how I see things. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Thank you again ;)

FORMULA (taken from http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php):

Charge: Q = CV where C is the capacitance in Farads, V is the voltage across the capacitor in Volts and Q is the charge measured in coulombs (C)

I calculated that my dump cap has 880uC (micro Coulombs) of charge 400V x 2.2uF = 880uC
And we know that 1 Ampere is 1 Coulomb per second (1A=1Cx1s), so I calculated that at 5000 rpm the spark fires 10.000 times, which means it fires 10.000/60=167 times every second. The total charge released in one second at 5000 rpm is 167x880uC=0.147A. So this is a sort of peak power for most engines. Barely anyone uses higher rpm. Anyhow, we have Amperage and Voltage (remember, my dump cap is 400V), so by multiplying the numbers we get 400V x 0.147A = 58.8W.

So, we need one resistor (commonly known as R1, here on forum) that has a power rating of approx 50-60W.
500 Ohms is chosen, I believe to limit the current to less than 1A >>> 450V (capacitor bank) / 500 Ohm = 0.9A (max current going to dump cap - C1).

Again, this is how I interpret the diagram gmeast shared with us. The final verdict will come from those who know more than I do about electronics.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on March 03, 2009, 05:02:54 PM
Great job Zissis ;D

Looking forward to your next video ;)

Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on March 03, 2009, 09:56:17 PM
Hello demios and Luc..!!

Until May I am full of homework for school because it's the last year at school and I must study as much as I can.
This is the reason I don't have enough time for tests.

Thank you very much for your encouragement.
The best are to come....

Next progress videos and photos are going to be in better quality, and posted as files. (not youtube)
Anyway, thanks again,
Keep up the good work..!!

Regards,
Zissis!! :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on March 03, 2009, 10:19:18 PM
@djzissis

Excellent results buddy! Maybe you overflowed the engine with water, maybe you should have used the I.V. dripping system, like gmeast did. That would have significantly reduced the amount of water in the engine. Either way, experimenting is more worth than any theory. That's why your work is precious to all of us. Thank you again!

@Alpeko

This is how I see things. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Thank you again ;)

FORMULA (taken from http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcchrg.php):

Charge: Q = CV where C is the capacitance in Farads, V is the voltage across the capacitor in Volts and Q is the charge measured in coulombs (C)

I calculated that my dump cap has 880uC (micro Coulombs) of charge 400V x 2.2uF = 880uC
And we know that 1 Ampere is 1 Coulomb per second (1A=1Cx1s), so I calculated that at 5000 rpm the spark fires 10.000 times, which means it fires 10.000/60=167 times every second. The total charge released in one second at 5000 rpm is 167x880uC=0.147A. So this is a sort of peak power for most engines. Barely anyone uses higher rpm. Anyhow, we have Amperage and Voltage (remember, my dump cap is 400V), so by multiplying the numbers we get 400V x 0.147A = 58.8W.

So, we need one resistor (commonly known as R1, here on forum) that has a power rating of approx 50-60W.
500 Ohms is chosen, I believe to limit the current to less than 1A >>> 450V (capacitor bank) / 500 Ohm = 0.9A (max current going to dump cap - C1).

Again, this is how I interpret the diagram gmeast shared with us. The final verdict will come from those who know more than I do about electronics.

Hi demios,

That is precisely correct at every level.  For a 4-cylinder engine, a 2uF cap at 5,000 RPM and 4 time constants for the RC calculation you only need 750 Ohms and about 27 watts (400 VDC)... but why skimp ... if I want to put a 3 uF cap in it then R1 = 500 ohm won't starve C1 and charge it short.

Nice job,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on March 03, 2009, 10:47:54 PM
@demios,

Very nice calculations.Yes resistor R1 is only for current limitting.This protect capacitor from high charging current.You very smart calculate inverter power for this job !!

But, for more practical result ask  gmeast to explain you.This schematic is only one from more similar.

For best result and good plasma you need enough time for testing every component.

@djzissis,

Dear friend from Greece.Water is not suittable for ICE.You must vaporize or atomize water,and in this state mix in air intake.

Thank you very much for try.

Best reg to all.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on March 04, 2009, 01:56:22 AM
@demios,

Very nice calculations.Yes resistor R1 is only for current limitting.This protect capacitor from high charging current.You very smart calculate inverter power for this job !!

But, for more practical result ask  gmeast to explain you.This schematic is only one from more similar.

For best result and good plasma you need enough time for testing every component.

@djzissis,

Dear friend from Greece.Water is not suittable for ICE.You must vaporize or atomize water,and in this state mix in air intake.

Thank you very much for try.

Best reg to all.

Alpeko.

Hi Alpeko,

Actually we want the cap C1 to charge as high as possible.  We want R1 to have low enough resistance to charge C1 to full voltage in the shortest pulse time you expect for the highest engine RPM.  If it is too high a resistance then C1 will not get fully charged and if it is too low the spark plug will arc at lower ignition rates and you will waste power and destroy plugs.  Please see the actual charge and discharge RC curves from my VexUs circuit and engine.  The scope capture shows the engine turning 4,000 RPM.  The resistor R1 must pass enough current to almost completely charge C1 and no more.   It may be best to replace R1 with a choke (inductor) L1 ... but I don't know how to calculate that.

Greg

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/500_ohm.jpg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on March 04, 2009, 03:10:01 AM
Hi Greg,

Yes I think that inductor is much better method then resistor.On this link is formula for calculate inductor value.

http://www.cvs1.uklinux.net/cgi-bin/calculators/ind_imp.cgi

Best reg.


Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on March 04, 2009, 03:13:26 AM
Hi Greg,

This is better link.



http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_3/3.html


Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: demios on March 06, 2009, 08:44:57 PM
I have 2 small questions regarding Voltage Multipliers, as seen here:

http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03286.png

The question No.1 is: do I need AC or DC capacitors to make a Voltage Multiplier circuit (doubler, quadrupler,...)?
Question No.2 is: are these capacitors in parallel or in series? Because I need to calculate the energy they can store (in Joules), and I'm not sure if they're in series or parallel.

Thanks in advance !!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on March 07, 2009, 01:18:41 AM
Hi demios.


Answer:


There is no such distinction as between an AC or DC capacitor.

If you rectify an AC, the voltage will still vary from zero to the peak voltage.  In order to filter it to a constant voltage, you add a capacitor across it.  When the AC is rectified by a diode and sufficiently filtered by a capacitor, then it becomes DC.

A capacitor can be used in series to pass an AC signal (a capacitor used this way is called an AC coupling capacitor, or a DC blocking capacitor).

A capacitor can be used in parallel across an AC signal to attenuate the AC voltage while allowing the DC voltage to develop (a capacitor used this way is called a bypass capacitor). 

In each case, they are all capacitors.  The same capacitor used in different ways takes the name of the way it was used.

If there will be a high alternating current, a high current capability capacitor might be needed.  If the voltage across the capacitor may be + ot -, then a non-polarized one must be used.  If it is always one polarity, then an electrolytic capacitor can be used to reduce cost and size.

Hope this helps!

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fixo on March 25, 2009, 02:43:52 AM
Hi demios.


Answer:


There is no such distinction as between an AC or DC capacitor.

If you rectify an AC, the voltage will still vary from zero to the peak voltage.  In order to filter it to a constant voltage, you add a capacitor across it.  When the AC is rectified by a diode and sufficiently filtered by a capacitor, then it becomes DC.

A capacitor can be used in series to pass an AC signal (a capacitor used this way is called an AC coupling capacitor, or a DC blocking capacitor).

A capacitor can be used in parallel across an AC signal to attenuate the AC voltage while allowing the DC voltage to develop (a capacitor used this way is called a bypass capacitor). 

In each case, they are all capacitors.  The same capacitor used in different ways takes the name of the way it was used.

If there will be a high alternating current, a high current capability capacitor might be needed.  If the voltage across the capacitor may be + ot -, then a non-polarized one must be used.  If it is always one polarity, then an electrolytic capacitor can be used to reduce cost and size.

Hope this helps!

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 01, 2009, 01:35:40 AM
Hi everyone,

it's been a while since I have posted new information but hopefully I will start my experiments soon as winter has now past and the weather is warming up so I should be able to continue soon.

I found on YouTube a Romanian engineer named Mihai Rusetel that seems to have developed and patented a water engine.

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5-C3iG5djI

If anyone knows the language, could you please give us some details on this.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 01, 2009, 01:54:44 AM

I have some reservations about the video Luc...in particular that white panel covering the lower portion of his apparatus.

If the device is patent protected, I cannot think of any reason to hide his work...unless the video was done prior to securing the patent.

It seem there's always something doesn't it.

Good to see you back here.

Regards...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 01, 2009, 07:07:27 AM
I have some reservations about the video Luc...in particular that white panel covering the lower portion of his apparatus.

If the device is patent protected, I cannot think of any reason to hide his work...unless the video was done prior to securing the patent.

It seem there's always something doesn't it.

Good to see you back here.

Regards...

Thanks for your comment Cap-Z-ro

Yes!... there's always something ;D

Let's see if we can find someone to translate some of this.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dankie on April 01, 2009, 06:34:14 PM
Thanks for your comment Cap-Z-ro

Yes!... there's always something ;D

Let's see if we can find someone to translate some of this.

Luc

The water and plasma is a dead horse , just concentrate on some better fuel atomizer or better sparkplug for a normal non-water engine .

It may be because you are somekind of social engineer . Seriously I wonder if you are not deliberatly being totally daft , everything that ever came from you is nit-wit counter-intel work designed to steer the masses into a vortex of nothingness.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 01, 2009, 07:11:07 PM
The water and plasma is a dead horse , just concentrate on some better fuel atomizer or better sparkplug for a normal non-water engine .

It may be because you are somekind of social engineer . Seriously I wonder if you are not deliberatly being totally daft , everything that ever came from you is nit-wit counter-intel work designed to steer the masses into a vortex of nothingness.

Dear dankie,

I see you still follow my topics and I'm puzzled as to why you would since all your posts have been negative bashing :-\

I have deleted your post before but this time I'll let everyone see it.

If what I freely share bothers you so much!... then why would you check up on it or even take the time to write a post ???

If you have found a better working Technology, then please feel free to use this topic to demonstrate what you have. Just keep in mind to demonstrate your device by pictures or preferably a video to which you carefully explain how your technology works. I will not except a theory or a debate on a theory in this topic.

The floor is yours

Sincerely.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kinesisfilms on April 01, 2009, 09:56:31 PM
god damnit dankie......

luc i can assure you he is HIGHLY PARANOID......

how to make a complete fool of yourself in one easy step with dankie.

once again learn to keep your mouth shut before jumping to false conclusions everytime.

a plasma spark plug is incredibly useful for even the work we are progressing.

just becuase it isn't stanley meyer doesn't mean you should conclude it worthless.

let's look at krupa and paul pantone......whatever it takes is whatever it takes and thats it....we are here to solve an energy dilema regardless if you cut it diagonally or straight across.

please stop openly jumping to "counter-intel" rubbish......you did the same thing to dynodon.....

and now this.......
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on April 04, 2009, 04:56:02 PM
Dear dankie,

I see you still follow my topics and I'm puzzled as to why you would since all your posts have been negative bashing :-\

I have deleted your post before but this time I'll let everyone see it.

If what I freely share bothers you so much!... then why would you check up on it or even take the time to write a post ???

If you have found a better working Technology, then please feel free to use this topic to demonstrate what you have. Just keep in mind to demonstrate your device by pictures or preferably a video to which you carefully explain how your technology works. I will not except a theory or a debate on a theory in this topic.

The floor is yours

Sincerely.

Luc

Hi all,

It will be interesting to see if he can contribute ...anything.  I'm sure it will be a challenge for everyone.  Someone please email me when it's over.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 04, 2009, 06:55:28 PM
Hi All,

I do not post often as I am very busy but I also prefer to do physical work over talking. As is often seen, there are a lot more talkers than doers on this forum which is counter-productive.
I am building some devices right now for multiple experiments but have been watching the whole water fuel scene with interest. Contrary to what dankie thinks, water as fuel is not a dead horse but we are stuck at a tipping point, there a many videos proving beyond any doubt that water does indeed explode, however, our problem is that it is not flammable so any initial shockwave or detonation does not propogate and only a very small amount of explosive displacement spreads.
This leads me to think that what we need work on and and make happen inside the combustion chamber is some kind of Resonant Shockwave Propogation.
This could be accomplished in several different ways, one possible method being to set up a resonance or some kind of constant wave in the combustion chamber throughout which the resonant frequency used to detonate the water could propogate and reflect back, using two frequencies which harmonize so to speak.
I suppose the bottom of this issue is to get ALL the water molecules to move, interact, and resonate like mad :)
As we know, water is good at dampening sound so a harmonic resonance may be very necessary as a harmonic pierces through matter more easily.
The combustion chamber of an engine could make an excellent resonant chamber, though of course we do not want to shake it to death ;D...

Additions, ideas anyone?

BTW dankie, what gives you the credibility to go around attacking things that you have not built or bothered to spend the time experimenting with? What contributions have you actually made?
@ Luc, thank you for getting rid of his posts, the threads on this forum are cluttered up enough as it is with the constant squabbling that goes on.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dankie on April 04, 2009, 07:42:54 PM
Water as fuel is not a dead horse , its your plasma idea for water as fuel that is a dead horse , I now see you are mad @ me because you just realized that .

Long live water as fuel !!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 04, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
dankie, please stop trolling, you fail at faking real interest and most can easily see through your facade.
Plasma is hardly a dead horse, it is difficult to study and manipulate and it is not well understood. Hardly good enough reasons to drop it (unless you are too lazy to get up and actually do something other than waste people's time making pointless comments and trying to stop people from doing research...).
How old are you?
Water as fuel is not a dead horse , its your plasma idea for water as fuel that is a dead horse , I now see you are mad @ me because you just realized that .
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dankie on April 04, 2009, 09:15:05 PM
dankie, please stop trolling, you fail at faking real interest and most can easily see through your facade.
Plasma is hardly a dead horse, it is difficult to study and manipulate and it is not well understood. Hardly good enough reasons to drop it (unless you are too lazy to get up and actually do something other than waste people's time making pointless comments and trying to stop people from doing research...).
How old are you?

Its really simple the way I think , I look @ this from the raw doability of something and its overall potential  . Any idea that doesnt fall into this category I try to railroad , its that simple . At this moment I can see that only Stanley Meyers work is a solution , especially now .

I dont care about your emotions or your opinion , I dont care if I crush your dreams or break your heart . I look @ the facts and come up with my own conclusion , and I am right almost everytime .  I railroad somebody and the OU sommunity is better off .

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on April 04, 2009, 10:47:39 PM
Its really simple the way I think , I look @ this from the raw doability of something and its overall potential  . Any idea that doesnt fall into this category I try to railroad , its that simple . At this moment I can see that only Stanley Meyers work is a solution , especially now .

I dont care about your emotions or your opinion , I dont care if I crush your dreams or break your heart . I look @ the facts and come up with my own conclusion , and I am right almost everytime .  I railroad somebody and the OU sommunity is better off .



Fine donkey.  Go some place else and do it and don't waste any more of our time.  Luc, would you please get rid of this gnat.  He some how has designated himself as expert enough to say that only Meyers has IT.  donkey ... where is your up-and-running Meyers system?  Where is it?  Have you built one?  Are you going to build one? 

The donkey prayer:
Please, please show us the way and save us from ourselves ... oh lord of overunity ... I pray that you turn us from our misled ways and deliver us from the darkness we have fallen in to. Open our eyes to your wisdom and make our minds guide our hands to toil to and make devices to glorify you.

Praise all mighty donkey.  Ah f---ing 'men.

Oh, this is for crap.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 05, 2009, 03:10:56 AM
dankie,  you are not an expert relating to anything here and you are too busy loving the sound of your own voice to contribute anything,  you do not speak for the sake of contributing anything useful, but speak for the sake of wanting to listen to your own "clever" voice and wanting to be right.
You say you are "right almost every time" and "the OU community is better off"; please prove the times you have been right and please get it out of your head that you are the saviour of OU.
You have been asked multiple times what you have contributed or done and have ignored the question every time and we all know why ::)
I suggest you go for a walk outside to get away from the computer screen.


Its really simple the way I think , I look @ this from the raw doability of something and its overall potential  . Any idea that doesnt fall into this category I try to railroad , its that simple . At this moment I can see that only Stanley Meyers work is a solution , especially now .
I look @ the facts and come up with my own conclusion , and I am right almost everytime .  I railroad somebody and the OU sommunity is better off .
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 06, 2009, 04:53:00 AM
Hi all,

I have been out of town since early morning Friday and did not have internet access.

I see that dankie has clearly written his opinion on the Plasma Water Spark and has nothing better to share so I don't think we need to debate it any longer.

Everyone has the right to his or her opinion and now dankie's is archived. The future outcome is up to all of us interested in continuing the research and working together.

I would like to thank Greg for his enormous contribution to date and I'm sure he will be encouraged continue to post his development once again when he see's others putting in the effort to what he has taken so much of his time and energy to Freely share his experiment results to help All who have interest in developing this technology.

Greg is one of the best example of what true Open Source technology sharing is about. However, no one should work alone at something that could be good for All. We need to work together as a team to win a game, right!...so let's use our energy wisely and I'm sure once we have a strong, dedicated and focused group, the Universal force will intuitively guide each one of us to help put the pieces together as to best use this effect.

Let's keep our mind on the goal! which is Free Ecological Energy Independence for All...  we only waste time when trying to prove someone right or wrong!

I do believe building, testing and sharing our results will be the best way to come up with new ideas to further develop the effect.

@dankie, any future negative or off topic post will be deleted.

Thank you all for your support and sharing.

Luc



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aquapulser on April 10, 2009, 05:02:48 AM
Hello everyone

We are open source engineers and our day jobs are in IT  and Electronics Engineering. We specialize in taking a pie in the sky concept from black board to production and we have prototyped a plasma spark device for the open source community. This is our two cent contribution for the open source energy community.
 

Please check out the videos of our prototype Radiant Plasma 4700 in HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNvuPMGu6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzqh5au_c

Folks we have 10 protoypes for purchase...protoyping a Plasma spark unit has been a very expensive proposition not to mention challenging especially when it came to miniaturization and achieving 97% charging efficiency.  Our primary goal was to get researchers a low cost device so they can start working on alternative fuels, HHO and study the plasma spark effect rather than struggle with expensive large capacitor charging circuits and diode banks.  No more fried inverters....no more inverters period... we can truly say this is a plasma ignition researchers dream device.

 email: admin@aquapulser.com  if you are interested in preordering a prototype. We plan to protoype additional units and auction them on ebay as we have to eventually recover our initial prototyping costs.

Interested plasma spark researchers, please post this on all the other HHO  plasma spark research forums...Guys forgive us for not spending too much time on online forums..there are just so many forums discussing this topic and related topics....please do understand, we spend our day jobs working on electronics and engineering related projects so we try to make sure our hobbies have as little to do with electronics or engineering as possible.  We definitely felt we could make life easier for open source researchers in providing  a value added plasma research device using our industry expertise and this is our professional contribution.

Our site will be up soon. Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 10, 2009, 06:31:24 AM
Hi aquapulser,

I am not too sure why you are posting your product here as all of us have been sharing our research and technology free of charge.

This maybe a way to advertise your product but this is a Free Public Forum?

I will have to check with Stefan (Forum Moderator) as I'm not sure what the rules are with this kind of situation.

I have no problem with those who want to do business with this technology but It may not be appropriate to use this Public Forum to do so.

Let me check and see.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on April 10, 2009, 07:39:23 AM
Hi aquapulser,

I am not too sure why you are posting your product here as all of us have been sharing our research and technology free of charge.

This maybe a way to advertise your product but this is a Free Public Forum?

I will have to check with Stefan (Forum Moderator) as I'm not sure what the rules are with this kind of situation.

I have no problem with those who want to do business with this technology but It may not be appropriate to use this Public Forum to do so.

Let me check and see.

Luc

Hi aquapulser,

... not only that but I have not seen your system applied to a distributed ignition spark.  A large part of our research and design has been aimed at a "piggy back" concept.  We don't need a CDI coil driver either ... it just rides on top of the existing ignition system  It looks to me like you need one '4700' per plug which makes the total power consumption look ... not so good and not better than the basic VexUs system which is only 50 Watts to run a 4 cylinder engine at 4500 RPM.  But the 4700 @ 26 Watts times 4 is ????

Nice packaging and guitar grinding  though.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 03:40:32 PM
Hello everyone

We are open source engineers and our day jobs are in IT  and Electronics Engineering. We specialize in taking a pie in the sky concept from black board to production and we have prototyped a plasma spark device for the open source community. This is our two cent contribution for the open source energy community.
 

Please check out the videos of our prototype Radiant Plasma 4700 in HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNvuPMGu6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzqh5au_c

Folks we have 10 protoypes for purchase...protoyping a Plasma spark unit has been a very expensive proposition not to mention challenging especially when it came to miniaturization and achieving 97% charging efficiency.  Our primary goal was to get researchers a low cost device so they can start working on alternative fuels, HHO and study the plasma spark effect rather than struggle with expensive large capacitor charging circuits and diode banks.  No more fried inverters....no more inverters period... we can truly say this is a plasma ignition researchers dream device.

 email: admin@aquapulser.com  if you are interested in preordering a prototype. We plan to protoype additional units and auction them on ebay as we have to eventually recover our initial prototyping costs.

Interested plasma spark researchers, please post this on all the other HHO  plasma spark research forums...Guys forgive us for not spending too much time on online forums..there are just so many forums discussing this topic and related topics....please do understand, we spend our day jobs working on electronics and engineering related projects so we try to make sure our hobbies have as little to do with electronics or engineering as possible.  We definitely felt we could make life easier for open source researchers in providing  a value added plasma research device using our industry expertise and this is our professional contribution.

Our site will be up soon. Thanks for your time.


Product looks great.
Is it also possible to run the motor on Water mist only with this kit or is it only to enhance gasoline fuel efficiency ?

P.S. From which bands are the great background songs in the youtube videos ?

Will you have an affiliate program ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dankie on April 10, 2009, 04:23:20 PM
Hello everyone

We are open source engineers and our day jobs are in IT  and Electronics Engineering. We specialize in taking a pie in the sky concept from black board to production and we have prototyped a plasma spark device for the open source community. This is our two cent contribution for the open source energy community.
 

Please check out the videos of our prototype Radiant Plasma 4700 in HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNvuPMGu6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzqh5au_c

Folks we have 10 protoypes for purchase...protoyping a Plasma spark unit has been a very expensive proposition not to mention challenging especially when it came to miniaturization and achieving 97% charging efficiency.  Our primary goal was to get researchers a low cost device so they can start working on alternative fuels, HHO and study the plasma spark effect rather than struggle with expensive large capacitor charging circuits and diode banks.  No more fried inverters....no more inverters period... we can truly say this is a plasma ignition researchers dream device.

 email: admin@aquapulser.com  if you are interested in preordering a prototype. We plan to protoype additional units and auction them on ebay as we have to eventually recover our initial prototyping costs.

Interested plasma spark researchers, please post this on all the other HHO  plasma spark research forums...Guys forgive us for not spending too much time on online forums..there are just so many forums discussing this topic and related topics....please do understand, we spend our day jobs working on electronics and engineering related projects so we try to make sure our hobbies have as little to do with electronics or engineering as possible.  We definitely felt we could make life easier for open source researchers in providing  a value added plasma research device using our industry expertise and this is our professional contribution.

Our site will be up soon. Thanks for your time.


Great Job , looks easy to setup ...

This will help alot .

I liked your info of Meyers on your site.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 10, 2009, 05:42:23 PM
Hi aquapulser and everyone,

Stefan (the board moderator) seems to be okay for now with your post demonstrating your new product but it would be nice to see participation from you by answering some questions members may have about your product.

I see Greg (the top developer) has asked questions and I also see Stefan has.

Looking forward in your participation.

Thanks for sharing :)

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 10, 2009, 07:59:55 PM
Hi aquapulser,
I am not too sure why you are posting your product here as all of us have been sharing our research and technology free of charge.
This maybe a way to advertise your product but this is a Free Public Forum?
Luc

Hey Luc,

With respect, I can see why they are charging, I have been building an aquapulser circuit (the diagram is off their site) and though it seems relatively simple, it has actually cost a lot of time (and money, though I am using a lot of used parts to cut costs) just to redesign the circuit to my own specs and then to get that circuit actually designed into a printable PCB. Though I am not talking of you (thank you for your many contributions :) ), many people on this forum get angry when someone wants to charge for their invention, the majority of these people are those that do not realize how much it costs a person to build something even quite simple while keeping it clear and simple enough for the average person to understand. Many inventors of these kind of devices have jobs and not much spare time and commonly have little money so hats off to them. I cannot afford to buy something like this so could likewise be unhappy but maybe a better idea would be to do our best to donate to people like these guys, if we can, when it is open sourced (I'm pretty sure it will be up on their site).
I have no training or even knowledge of electrical engineering so I have made the stuff I have worked on (I will open source it) as clear as possible for someone similar so that building will be easy, but I am also flat broke so though for example I will open source my work and will not request money, any help would be appreciated. Same applies to the Aquapulser folks, if I could afford to, I would buy a unit to make a contribution to their continued efforts.
 :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 10, 2009, 08:07:36 PM
Hi aquapulser,

... not only that but I have not seen your system applied to a distributed ignition spark.  A large part of our research and design has been aimed at a "piggy back" concept.  We don't need a CDI coil driver either ... it just rides on top of the existing ignition system  It looks to me like you need one '4700' per plug which makes the total power consumption look ... not so good and not better than the basic VexUs system which is only 50 Watts to run a 4 cylinder engine at 4500 RPM.  But the 4700 @ 26 Watts times 4 is ????
Nice packaging and guitar grinding  though.
Greg

Hi Greg,
The great thing about the Aquapulser circuit is that you can do a lot of playing and modification, I think this is the kind of circuit that has a lot of potential if the time is put it on research. The size of the plasmoids they are producing with the Aquapulser is fantastic! Even if no water was used I think fuel and burn efficiency would be increased. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aquapulser on April 10, 2009, 10:37:48 PM
Thanks for your comments everyone.

We look forward and hope to answer all questions that may arise once our site is up.

Plasma ignition has been around for quite a while now. The basic working concept behind the unit we prototyped is based on the following patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3788293.html

Other similar patents
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4029072.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4223656.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4366801.html

There are also other patents and they will be listed on our website.

The key here is that the charging technology has been minaturized using SMT technology and a custom programmed microprocessor to optimize a flyback capacitor charging circuit. The charging technology is cutting edge and that is also the reason why in spite of all the patents out there, there are hardly any plasma spark products.  The issue has always been miniaturizing the charging technology and power consumption, which is possible today because of SMD components and microprocessors.

we would like to make it abundantly clear that we are not here for profit by any means. We are not new to the OU community, we sold and auctioned off high quality gated PWMS because a lot of researchers didnt have gated PWMs and we never posted any ads. We saved and used the funds to further R&D and as a result the Plasma Spark generator is the next HHO research device.


Please read the posts by a gentleman by the name of Shane Jackson

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2093&page=3

The average cost of building the current open source plasma spark vexus circuit...which is conceptually virtually identical to the expired patents outlined above is around $400. And this $400 does not include the inverter. We are all Shane Jacksons here...kudos to him at least he knows how much it costs to actually get just a  basic open source circuit prototyped.

Our pricing will be around $350 just barely covers the basic production costs, from circuit design, enclosure design, Surface mount assembly, HV encapsulation, custom machined connectors, and high quality components etc. We are under the impression that most HHO plasma spark researchers know the cost of actually prototyping a plasma spark device. If we had actually charged for the actual engineering and design input, the unit price would be well over $500.

Credit goes to Luc for having discovered that a high current plasma spark explodes water mist.

Our goal is simply to make affordable plasma spark units for open source researchers to see if the plasma technology can actually run a car on water, HHO or even 60% Ethanol 40% water and if it can supplement existing HHO systems and other systems under ongoing research like Stanley Meyers etc.

We have no personal attachment to any technology or process, and we feel it is the public's right to test it out for themselves and if it doesn't work keep moving on. Our way of contributing back is to take bold risks in prototyping by investing capital and  we invested all of it in bring out a production model that will help everyone move forward with plasma ignition technology and achieve the broader objectives of a true and lasting energy independence.

We would like the broader public who are not OU members or part of the open source culture to test the plasma spark effect. Gmeast  has claimed excellent mileage gains...lets see if others can better it. Those who are great skilled mechanics (unlike us) but have little electronics experience to build a plasma spark circuit can benefit greatly from our work, and that is the best way to move forward if the open source engineering paradigm does indeed work!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on April 10, 2009, 10:41:19 PM
Hi everyone,

Very nice looking aquapulser,but on this forum we must share ours inventions,and make  better world.
No problem make 300 - 500 V inverters,and discharge cap on spark plug,for us electronic spec.
But we must helping for others who's want make plasma spark circuits.

Best reg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aquapulser on April 10, 2009, 10:45:46 PM
Hi aquapulser,

... not only that but I have not seen your system applied to a distributed ignition spark.  A large part of our research and design has been aimed at a "piggy back" concept.  We don't need a CDI coil driver either ... it just rides on top of the existing ignition system  It looks to me like you need one '4700' per plug which makes the total power consumption look ... not so good and not better than the basic VexUs system which is only 50 Watts to run a 4 cylinder engine at 4500 RPM.  But the 4700 @ 26 Watts times 4 is ????

Nice packaging and guitar grinding  though.

Greg

Hello

The RPG 4700 will fire across any distributed spark system. Only one unit per vehicle is required, not 4. This unit is highly energy efficient and  does not consume more than 30 watts. We have attached the wiring diagrams for installation on a vehicle.

The CDI was just to demonstrate how the unit would work with a high voltage input from an ignition coil. The CDI driver also allowed us to demonstrate the plasma spark cycling through frequencies. Yes the RPG 4700 will piggy back on all positive HVDC ignition systems.


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 10, 2009, 11:09:23 PM
Hey Luc,

With respect, I can see why they are charging, I have been building an aquapulser circuit (the diagram is off their site) and though it seems relatively simple, it has actually cost a lot of time (and money, though I am using a lot of used parts to cut costs) just to redesign the circuit to my own specs and then to get that circuit actually designed into a printable PCB. Though I am not talking of you (thank you for your many contributions :) ), many people on this forum get angry when someone wants to charge for their invention, the majority of these people are those that do not realize how much it costs a person to build something even quite simple while keeping it clear and simple enough for the average person to understand. Many inventors of these kind of devices have jobs and not much spare time and commonly have little money so hats off to them. I cannot afford to buy something like this so could likewise be unhappy but maybe a better idea would be to do our best to donate to people like these guys, if we can, when it is open sourced (I'm pretty sure it will be up on their site).
I have no training or even knowledge of electrical engineering so I have made the stuff I have worked on (I will open source it) as clear as possible for someone similar so that building will be easy, but I am also flat broke so though for example I will open source my work and will not request money, any help would be appreciated. Same applies to the Aquapulser folks, if I could afford to, I would buy a unit to make a contribution to their continued efforts.
 :)

Hi magpie,

thanks for filling me in on some of the aquapulser group work as I had no idea of this group till now.

I know what you mean about no money ;)... for well over a year I have had no income or savings to live off of. It is thanks to the generosity of my Girl friend Lucie who is providing me with Free room and board to help continue the research. Most of my experiments I do is also with used stuff I salvage from garbage I pickup. Recently did receive two 100 Euro donations from a very generous soul from the Energetic Forum which help me buy batteries and Magnet wire for my Resonance research work, I was also blessed by User: Groundloop with circuit designs, he even built and shipped me 2 complete circuits for the research and all free of charge.

Thanks to Greg for his enormous research and development contribution and to all others who have contributed in posting your test results.

The World is becoming a New and improved place thanks to us working together and freely sharing with all. May the Force be with us to continue this positive and productive direction.

Thanks to Stefan for also providing and maintaining this Open Public Forum.

Luc

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vrand on April 10, 2009, 11:37:09 PM
....
Our pricing will be around $350 just barely covers the basic production costs, from circuit design, enclosure design, Surface mount assembly, HV encapsulation, custom machined connectors, and high quality components etc. We are under the impression that most HHO plasma spark researchers know the cost of actually prototyping a plasma spark device.


I would be interested in a unit.

Any estimate on when you will be shipping?  Take paypal for payment?

-Mike R.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 10, 2009, 11:47:32 PM
Thanks for your comments everyone.

We look forward and hope to answer all questions that may arise once our site is up.

Plasma ignition has been around for quite a while now. The basic working concept behind the unit we prototyped is based on the following patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3788293.html

Other similar patents
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4029072.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4223656.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4366801.html

There are also other patents and they will be listed on our website.

The key here is that the charging technology has been minaturized using SMT technology and a custom programmed microprocessor to optimize a flyback capacitor charging circuit. The charging technology is cutting edge and that is also the reason why in spite of all the patents out there, there are hardly any plasma spark products.  The issue has always been miniaturizing the charging technology and power consumption, which is possible today because of SMD components and microprocessors.

we would like to make it abundantly clear that we are not here for profit by any means. We are not new to the OU community, we sold and auctioned off high quality gated PWMS because a lot of researchers didnt have gated PWMs and we never posted any ads. We saved and used the funds to further R&D and as a result the Plasma Spark generator is the next HHO research device.


Please read the posts by a gentleman by the name of Shane Jackson

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2093&page=3

The average cost of building the current open source plasma spark vexus circuit...which is conceptually virtually identical to the expired patents outlined above is around $400. And this $400 does not include the inverter. We are all Shane Jacksons here...kudos to him at least he knows how much it costs to actually get just a  basic open source circuit prototyped.

Our pricing will be around $350 just barely covers the basic production costs, from circuit design, enclosure design, Surface mount assembly, HV encapsulation, custom machined connectors, and high quality components etc. We are under the impression that most HHO plasma spark researchers know the cost of actually prototyping a plasma spark device. If we had actually charged for the actual engineering and design input, the unit price would be well over $500.

Credit goes to Luc for having discovered that a high current plasma spark explodes water mist.

Our goal is simply to make affordable plasma spark units for open source researchers to see if the plasma technology can actually run a car on water, HHO or even 60% Ethanol 40% water and if it can supplement existing HHO systems and other systems under ongoing research like Stanley Meyers etc.

We have no personal attachment to any technology or process, and we feel it is the public's right to test it out for themselves and if it doesn't work keep moving on. Our way of contributing back is to take bold risks in prototyping by investing capital and  we invested all of it in bring out a production model that will help everyone move forward with plasma ignition technology and achieve the broader objectives of a true and lasting energy independence.

We would like the broader public who are not OU members or part of the open source culture to test the plasma spark effect. Gmeast  has claimed excellent mileage gains...lets see if others can better it. Those who are great skilled mechanics (unlike us) but have little electronics experience to build a plasma spark circuit can benefit greatly from our work, and that is the best way to move forward if the open source engineering paradigm does indeed work!


Most excellent post aquapulser ;)

Thank you for taking the time to explain your intent and direction.

I totally agree with you that those gifted in the art of ICE may not have much knowledge in electronics :P... therefore this will help spread the ability for those who wish to test this Technology and hopefully make more advancements. 

If you look through my early posts you will find that I was hopeful that we could come up with a box that anyone could connect and have the plasma spark. So my congratulations to you and your group for making it possible and available.

Looking forward to the development.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on April 11, 2009, 01:34:41 AM
Hello

The RPG 4700 will fire across any distributed spark system. Only one unit per vehicle is required, not 4. This unit is highly energy efficient and  does not consume more than 30 watts. We have attached the wiring diagrams for installation on a vehicle.

The CDI was just to demonstrate how the unit would work with a high voltage input from an ignition coil. The CDI driver also allowed us to demonstrate the plasma spark cycling through frequencies. Yes the RPG 4700 will piggy back on all positive HVDC ignition systems.


Hi aquapulser,

I'm glad someone had the resources to do what your group has done.  I can FINALLY justify NOT spending ANY more time or ANY more money on this $#%@!$&.

I can now move on to batteries and motors ... the real future.  It's been fun but expensive.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dllabarre on April 11, 2009, 01:39:27 AM

How is this aquapulser any different then GMeasts vexus?
I don't need specific component differences just basic concept & application differences.

Thank you
DonL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on April 11, 2009, 01:52:15 AM
Hi aquapulser,

If yours circuits is, like Vexus(400V self oscilator),or dc-dc converter,in smd technology and... , why high voltage cable going to box ? Maybe for protecting ( diodes or some else) reason?
And, if yours circuit working like Gregs ,what is a better then Vexus?

Best reg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vrand on April 11, 2009, 01:55:42 AM
I can now move on to batteries and motors ...

If one can fuel a 100-200HP car engine on water with the plasma spark, there are nothing that large in the motor/battery field as yet.

Magnacoaster only goes to 12KW for sales right now.  They claim to go to megawatt units output, but that remains to be seen.

-Mike R.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 12, 2009, 04:05:52 AM
I know what you mean about no money ;)... for well over a year I have had no income or savings to live off of. It is thanks to the generosity of my Girl friend Lucie who is providing me with Free room and board to help continue the research. Most of my experiments I do is also with used stuff I salvage from garbage I pickup.
 

Ironic, isn't it, the people with the least money and resources working to accomplish what those with more easily could if they put their mind to it. In a way though, I'm glad that I'm not rich as it has taught me to be a lot more resourceful and creative, you think out of the box only when you are forced to :)
With the change to lcd and plasma screens there are a lot of CRT's around and they are a fantastic source for parts.
When I do have to buy stuff I get it from Ebay though I do my best to avoid Chinese stuff as it is dangerously unreliable. A really good, cheap, and quick to ship Ebay seller is "thaishopetc" I bought several IRFP460 MOSFETs at $1.20 apiece instead of paying $26 apiece at the local rip-off shop (though I do encourage buying local if you can; good for the economy).

Back to the RPG4700 though! Close to the end of the following video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzqh5au_c&feature=channel_page

This thing can do it's magic with a 9 volt battery, no small feat! :o

Sir "Aquapulsers": Thank you very much for this great contribution  ;D... For the last several months, plasma and using plasma for seperating water molecules seems to have hit a roadblock and has just been plain stuck. The excellent circuits that many dedicated people have been working on only seem to go so far, and we have been having trouble moving onto the next neccesary stage of this technology (which is no surprise considering that resources and cash are limited for most experimenters here).
In my opinion, after seeing the videos and the excellently thought-out unit, the work that must have gone into, and the performance of the RPG4700, I think this is the next step up in plasma technology progress and it deserves attention. Though I haven't heard of anyone having the chance to test it, it has already been built and enclosed so that it can be connected easily inside a vehicle (as they showed in the above post) which straightaway removes a lot of hassle and money for the average person.
What I'm seeing in the videos is that the spark is not just bright, but very broad and powerful which is exactly where we need to be going.
I wish I could afford one (the price is more than fair for the work accomplished though), I'm going try to scrape together the funds to buy one as even if it maybe isn't the full anwer in the water-for-fuel it definitely is a leap in the right direction and I think more can be accomplished by people experimenting with it and by the Aquapulser team.
I hope that many will buy these, we can see that the money would be put to good use.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: paulsonaivy on April 12, 2009, 03:28:15 PM
gr8 work buddy,
can u pls tell what is the out oput voltage
rgds paul
Ironic, isn't it, the people with the least money and resources working to accomplish what those with more easily could if they put their mind to it. In a way though, I'm glad that I'm not rich as it has taught me to be a lot more resourceful and creative, you think out of the box only when you are forced to :)
With the change to lcd and plasma screens there are a lot of CRT's around and they are a fantastic source for parts.
When I do have to buy stuff I get it from Ebay though I do my best to avoid Chinese stuff as it is dangerously unreliable. A really good, cheap, and quick to ship Ebay seller is "thaishopetc" I bought several IRFP460 MOSFETs at $1.20 apiece instead of paying $26 apiece at the local rip-off shop (though I do encourage buying local if you can; good for the economy).

Back to the RPG4700 though! Close to the end of the following video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzqh5au_c&feature=channel_page

This thing can do it's magic with a 9 volt battery, no small feat! :o

Sir "Aquapulsers": Thank you very much for this great contribution  ;D... For the last several months, plasma and using plasma for seperating water molecules seems to have hit a roadblock and has just been plain stuck. The excellent circuits that many dedicated people have been working on only seem to go so far, and we have been having trouble moving onto the next neccesary stage of this technology (which is no surprise considering that resources and cash are limited for most experimenters here).
In my opinion, after seeing the videos and the excellently thought-out unit, the work that must have gone into, and the performance of the RPG4700, I think this is the next step up in plasma technology progress and it deserves attention. Though I haven't heard of anyone having the chance to test it, it has already been built and enclosed so that it can be connected easily inside a vehicle (as they showed in the above post) which straightaway removes a lot of hassle and money for the average person.
What I'm seeing in the videos is that the spark is not just bright, but very broad and powerful which is exactly where we need to be going.
I wish I could afford one (the price is more than fair for the work accomplished though), I'm going try to scrape together the funds to buy one as even if it maybe isn't the full anwer in the water-for-fuel it definitely is a leap in the right direction and I think more can be accomplished by people experimenting with it and by the Aquapulser team.
I hope that many will buy these, we can see that the money would be put to good use.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vrand on April 12, 2009, 07:34:02 PM


Back to the RPG4700 though! Close to the end of the following video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzqh5au_c&feature=channel_page

This thing can do it's magic with a 9 volt battery, no small feat! 

Interesting video test that showed the radiant plasma was greater at higher wattage;  12VDC (26 watts) > 6VDC (12 watts) > 9VDC (4.5 watts).

Maybe 48VDC (100 watts) > 12VDC (26 watts)?

Can say, 100 watts plasma, fuel a car on 75-100% water?!

It would be great for the experimenter if the input VDC & wattage can be adjusted to say up to at least 48VDC (100 watts) or higher?

Even 500 watts input is not a problem with today’s cars/trucks, equipped with higher amperage alternators and battery capacitors used on high power stereo systems

-Mike R.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on April 12, 2009, 07:34:11 PM
@paulsonaivy


Look on explanation and see: 4.7uF cap charged to 450V.It is normal for cdi.Very nice is, all in one box.

Protecting circuit is in box,to 30KV.

Best reg.

Alpeko
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 13, 2009, 06:48:47 AM
Thank you for pointing me out, now please let me clarify what I said in the post.

The price I was quoting was to have the board I designed assembled. The reason for the high cost is my design uses 300 diodes and resistors.

http://www.facetrough.com/images/vexus-bud-3.jpg

My design has hookups for up to a V8 and also offers 80Kv voltage block.....

I did have PCB's made and have offered them for sale for $32 shipped. My attempt to help the technology grow… however to date I have only sold 1!!

Total cost to build one just like I am (case, PCB, diodes, resistors, caps, plugs,....) will be approx $120 plus time. Not exactly cheap but not too bad either.  I hope to have a video up on youtube soon.

That said your device does look very nice and I would love to see your schematics. The price is also very reasonable for a limited production item.




Thanks for your comments everyone.

We look forward and hope to answer all questions that may arise once our site is up.

Plasma ignition has been around for quite a while now. The basic working concept behind the unit we prototyped is based on the following patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3788293.html

Other similar patents
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4029072.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4223656.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4366801.html

There are also other patents and they will be listed on our website.

The key here is that the charging technology has been minaturized using SMT technology and a custom programmed microprocessor to optimize a flyback capacitor charging circuit. The charging technology is cutting edge and that is also the reason why in spite of all the patents out there, there are hardly any plasma spark products.  The issue has always been miniaturizing the charging technology and power consumption, which is possible today because of SMD components and microprocessors.

we would like to make it abundantly clear that we are not here for profit by any means. We are not new to the OU community, we sold and auctioned off high quality gated PWMS because a lot of researchers didnt have gated PWMs and we never posted any ads. We saved and used the funds to further R&D and as a result the Plasma Spark generator is the next HHO research device.


Please read the posts by a gentleman by the name of Shane Jackson

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2093&page=3

The average cost of building the current open source plasma spark vexus circuit...which is conceptually virtually identical to the expired patents outlined above is around $400. And this $400 does not include the inverter. We are all Shane Jacksons here...kudos to him at least he knows how much it costs to actually get just a  basic open source circuit prototyped.

Our pricing will be around $350 just barely covers the basic production costs, from circuit design, enclosure design, Surface mount assembly, HV encapsulation, custom machined connectors, and high quality components etc. We are under the impression that most HHO plasma spark researchers know the cost of actually prototyping a plasma spark device. If we had actually charged for the actual engineering and design input, the unit price would be well over $500.

Credit goes to Luc for having discovered that a high current plasma spark explodes water mist.

Our goal is simply to make affordable plasma spark units for open source researchers to see if the plasma technology can actually run a car on water, HHO or even 60% Ethanol 40% water and if it can supplement existing HHO systems and other systems under ongoing research like Stanley Meyers etc.

We have no personal attachment to any technology or process, and we feel it is the public's right to test it out for themselves and if it doesn't work keep moving on. Our way of contributing back is to take bold risks in prototyping by investing capital and  we invested all of it in bring out a production model that will help everyone move forward with plasma ignition technology and achieve the broader objectives of a true and lasting energy independence.

We would like the broader public who are not OU members or part of the open source culture to test the plasma spark effect. Gmeast  has claimed excellent mileage gains...lets see if others can better it. Those who are great skilled mechanics (unlike us) but have little electronics experience to build a plasma spark circuit can benefit greatly from our work, and that is the best way to move forward if the open source engineering paradigm does indeed work!


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 13, 2009, 06:56:18 AM
Here is a picture of the PCB's. If anyone would like one you can get them here:

http://www.facetrough.com/product_info.php?cPath=55&products_id=190

Thanks,

Shane Jackson
Title: Vexus PCB
Post by: CowboyRX on April 13, 2009, 03:16:03 PM
Is this the latest Vexus circuit?
Does the PCB come with parts list, schematic and soldering instructions?
Title: Re: Vexus PCB
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 13, 2009, 05:38:54 PM
There are many different vexus circuits out there. This is the latest ones available that does not take Greg’s approach to using an oscillator input (due to space limitation, however you could build that in another box to feed this PCB).

With the parts below it puts out over 300v to the plugs:

152 - 1n4007 Diodes Newark 18c8923 $.026
150 - 511K ohm resistor Newark 58k9268 $.011
1 - Caddock 100w 100ohm resistor Newark 73k1966 $10.81
1 - Caddock 100w 1ohm resistor Newark 73k1964 $12.81
2 - Aluminum Oxide Insulator Newark 21M5217 $.70
2 - 33uf 400v cap (voltage doubler) Newark 69k7936 $1.04
1 - 330uf 450v cap (storage cap) Newark 70k9480 $4.90
1 - 10uf 400v cap (dump cap) Newark 69k7897 $.38
1 - Bud Ind. AN-2805-B case Newark 97h4976 $39.99

Shane




Is this the latest Vexus circuit?
Does the PCB come with parts list, schematic and soldering instructions?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: topgroove on April 14, 2009, 04:25:03 PM
hey shane oicu812 here. I'm the one who bought the pcb board. thanks for the parts list you posted. I hate to be a pain in the ass but could you please post or email me the schematic so i can start soldering the board. thanks my email is hstopat3@aol.com, thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 15, 2009, 12:46:04 AM
This should help. If you have any questions let me know:
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 15, 2009, 07:31:20 PM
This may be a little clearer:

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: djzissis on April 21, 2009, 11:49:47 PM
Hello everybody..!!

It's been a long time since i have last written here. I have very little free time, because of school homework so, testings are paused until June.
I have been reading the Stanley Meyer's notes, and found many things about what is going on on his Water fuel cell.

Really amazing information.!! Everything is around electrolysis process, and air ionization at high voltages. The key is oscillation, and resonance. Of everything!!

Anyway, keep up the good work guys, and search a bit for Stan Meyers full data.


All the best,
Zissis
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: 1stCor127 on April 22, 2009, 08:08:48 PM
Interesting!  Did you just hear the Obama speach live a minut ago (2:00 EST april 22 2009)   :o Speaking about energy:  "there is no magical energy source...yet"  "there might be some kid out there working on it in a lab now, but there isn't anything, yet"

Whoh!  We're starting to hit the "radar" 

Keep up the great work gentlemen!  That is light at the end of the tunnel you see!!

1stCor127
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Cherryman on April 22, 2009, 08:15:47 PM
Interesting!  Did you just hear the Obama speach live a minut ago (2:00 EST april 22 2009)   :o Speaking about energy:  "there is no magical energy source...yet"  "there might be some kid out there working on it in a lab now, but there isn't anything, yet"

Whoh!  We're starting to hit the "radar" 

Keep up the great work gentlemen!  That is light at the end of the tunnel you see!!

1stCor127

Look here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7251.0   They know it ...  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on April 24, 2009, 08:50:55 PM
With respect, I can see why they are charging, I have been building an aquapulser circuit (the diagram is off their site) and though it seems relatively simple, it has actually cost a lot of time (and money, though I am using a lot of used parts to cut costs) just to redesign the circuit to my own specs and then to get that circuit actually designed into a printable PCB.
 :)

magpie:

Can you please post the diagram you got from aquapulser's site. I would like to look at it.

Thanx
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 24, 2009, 11:32:52 PM
Here you go, this one (essentially, it is a PWM)  is apparently based on a Lawton circuit, I've built my first PCB prototype and it works, I have a few small quirks to work out, though I think they are due to a faulty pot.
I have put a 2 way switch between pins 4 and 8 in the oscillator section of the diagram, so that I can sync multiple units together, I want to be able to deliver more than just a single gated square wave. This project cost me a lot of time and money in bits and bobs as it is the first circuit I have ever built, but if you shop carefully, it can actually be quite inexpensive to build. I have made a PCB design so that you can make your own PCB with a laser printer very quickly, I have a little more testing to do to make sure that the printable version works properly and is correct, but when I am done I wil publish it.

PLEASE NOTE: This circuit diagram is NOT of the RPG4700 unit the Aquapulser people sell, this is an older circuit for something else they used to sell.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on April 25, 2009, 12:31:57 AM
Here you go, this one (essentially, it is a PWM)  is apparently based on a Lawton circuit, I've built my first PCB prototype and it works, I have a few small quirks to work out, though I think they are due to a faulty pot.
I have put a 2 way switch between pins 4 and 8 in the oscillator section of the diagram, so that I can sync multiple units together, I want to be able to deliver more than just a single gated square wave. This project cost me a lot of time and money in bits and bobs as it is the first circuit I have ever built, but if you shop carefully, it can actually be quite inexpensive to build. I have made a PCB design so that you can make your own PCB with a laser printer very quickly, I have a little more testing to do to make sure that the printable version works properly and is correct, but when I am done I wil publish it.

PLEASE NOTE: This circuit diagram is NOT of the RPG4700 unit the Aquapulser people sell, this is an older circuit for something else they used to sell.

DOH!! I thought you were referring to the CDI item that they have now... and not the Lawton PWM.....LOL My fault.
Title: Re: Vexus PCB
Post by: gmeast on April 25, 2009, 01:35:27 AM
There are many different vexus circuits out there. This is the latest ones available that does not take Greg’s approach to using an oscillator input (due to space limitation,

.........................................................
Shane

Actually there is ONE VexUs circuit out there ... the one I originated.  There are versions (few) of that one.  It required using some sort of pump (oscillator), inverter, DC-DC converter or equiv at the front end to get the charge as they all need.

Thought I'd clear that up.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 25, 2009, 04:34:52 AM
DOH!! I thought you were referring to the CDI item that they have now... and not the Lawton PWM.....LOL My fault.

I WISH ;D Apparently it is a very complicated circuit. I'll do my best to get hold of a unit when I can, seriously though, why is there so little interest in the RPG4700? Just because a few I-want-a-free-lunch people complained about it not being free seems to me a bad reason to ignore technology that is quite obviously being well developed and performs :-\...
$350 is not much for an essentially plug-and-play device that will not require tons of tweaking and effort to generate a fat plasmoid.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on April 25, 2009, 05:55:38 AM
You're right magpie!

$350. is not much for a complete plug and play plasma spark unit. Hopefully I'll be receiving the PRG 4700 soon so I can get back to what I really want to do!... which is experiments on my test engine ;)  and not making electronic circuits :P

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 25, 2009, 06:40:12 AM
Actually Luc?
Haha, making circuit boards and getting into electronics has been quite the learning curve for me ;D
Several months back I managed to get a 160CC 4 stroke 6.5 Horsepower engine brand new at Princess Auto on sale for $100, the next week they were charging about double that so I'm glad I got it when I did. I have never run it or even put oil in it so it will be nice and clean when I am able to do serious testing with straight water and plasma.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on April 25, 2009, 09:01:58 PM
OK... not to start any heated debate or ruffle and feathers  ;)

The Aquapulser seems to work great... and looks even better then it works.....  ;D

And $350 does not sound to bad....

But.. how does it preform under cylinder pressure?! That is the million dollar question. And i know its still new, but how about some real world data from driving. You can't tell me that they haven't even tried to test it out on a car yet, and got data form the test... that's not how R&D works.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: magpie on April 26, 2009, 12:23:13 AM
OK... not to start any heated debate or ruffle and feathers  ;)

The Aquapulser seems to work great... and looks even better then it works.....  ;D

And $350 does not sound to bad....

But.. how does it preform under cylinder pressure?! That is the million dollar question. And i know its still new, but how about some real world data from driving. You can't tell me that they haven't even tried to test it out on a car yet, and got data form the test... that's not how R&D works.

That IS the million dollar question, keep in mind, that even if it doesn't work 100% under the pressure of the combustion chamber but does produce a stronger effect (in the combustion chamber) than the other circuits and does produce a tiny bit of force in there, we will still be a few steps further ahead and closer to our goal and will know that at least the concept works. It is interesting to note that on the Aquapulser website it says that the RPG4700 is just a proof of concept, if they can get enough money they can get to work on a Radiant Plasma system (or whatever they called it :) ).
Title: Re: Vexus PCB
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 29, 2009, 01:46:30 PM
Actually there is ONE VexUs circuit out there ... the one I originated.  There are versions (few) of that one.  It required using some sort of pump (oscillator), inverter, DC-DC converter or equiv at the front end to get the charge as they all need.

Thought I'd clear that up.

Greg

Yes I should have said versions.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shane Jackson on April 29, 2009, 01:47:44 PM
Here is a short video with crappy audio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajsf3ytnNKQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajsf3ytnNKQ)

If you are wondering.... Lysol. I think part of the problem is I did not have the plug grounded very well. All my vice grips are in my spray foam truck.... I may do another video when my new plugs arrive.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on April 30, 2009, 11:06:06 PM
Here are some pictures of my plugs.

All of my plugs wore very well.  I was especially surprised to see the low wear on the beryllium-copper plugs.  Nice job of replicating to Robin David.

Greg

1st photo: far left is the nickel plug with 750 miles, an unused beryllium-copper, 4 be-cu's with 1,400 VexUs miles of  on them

2nd photo: close-up of the unused beryllium-copper plug and some of the used ones

3rd photo: close-up of the nickel plug
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 01, 2009, 04:04:14 AM
Thanks Greg for taking the time to post this Spark Plug wear update of Robin David's Firestorm replicas used with your VexUs circuit and steam intake.

Obviously your circuit is not destroying the plugs as some have been experiencing as they seem to be intact. I cannot detect any wear :-\... can you ???

Congratulations ;D  as you are the only one I know of who has achieved this.

Hope to see more results soon.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 01, 2009, 04:11:53 AM
Here is a short video with crappy audio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajsf3ytnNKQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajsf3ytnNKQ)

If you are wondering.... Lysol. I think part of the problem is I did not have the plug grounded very well. All my vice grips are in my spray foam truck.... I may do another video when my new plugs arrive.

Thanks Shane for posting your new video.

It looks good and you made an interesting show. I wonder how much Lysol costs to the gallon in bulk ;D

Keep us informed of your progress.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 01, 2009, 04:53:31 AM
Thanks Greg for taking the time to post this Spark Plug wear update of Robin David's Firestorm replicas used with your VexUs circuit and steam intake.

Obviously your circuit is not destroying the plugs as some have been experiencing as they seem to be intact. I cannot detect any wear :-\... can you ???

Congratulations ;D  as you are the only one I know of who has achieved this.

Hope to see more results soon.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Well Luc,

I only used a 2Uf dump cap.  My oscillator produced almost 400VDC under load (RPM).  As you demonstrated early on: higher voltage, lower uF is a better affect than lower voltage, higher uF.  The latter is higher current ... very destructive. 

Folks wouldn't build it though.  Oh well.  I'm concentrating on super high humidity and shifting the thermal cycle of the ICE for better efficiency (steam ingestion and fuel leaning with the nickel Firestorms - (fully recuperative)

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gourdman on May 02, 2009, 02:12:15 AM
This maybe off topic but have you guys seen this.
Maybe something for OU researchers to check out.
I don’t post to many forums but have been doing a lot of research and some R&D on what I think shows promise. This appears to be something that could be applied to many of the OU devices that most OU open source engineers would be interested in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyAX9corOuQ&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on May 02, 2009, 08:45:11 PM
This video has been removed by the user.

No video.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 07, 2009, 07:16:01 PM
Hi Luc and all,

I believe this post still belongs here.  The effect is still plasma I think but only observable under pressure.

I have made an important change to the air filter ... a new one ... yeah.  Why it took so long to do this I don't know.  Now there is no labyrinth for the steam that might induce condensation.  Now it's just straight in.  It's still legal ... see the breather in to the other side?

The VexUs plasma circuit is completely removed.  I am running my Nickel Firestorm Spark Plug replicas by Robin David ...ONLY.  At present I still only have my single metered water drip onto a 3 inch long segment of the exhaust manifold (before the muffler).

I have a set of pictures for you:
-first picture is overall of the new filter and old duct

-second picture is of the steam rising from convection & just plain wafting up the duct and condensing on the mirror.  NOTE: ... the weather was dry and warm at the time of the picture

-third picture is of one of the nickel Firestorm plugs

-fourth picture is of a nickel Firestorm plug firing at atmospheric pressure ... enemic

-fifth picture is of the same nickel Firestorm plug firing under 125 psi pressure ... WOW ... a plasma spark!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 07, 2009, 09:37:52 PM
Hi Greg,

thanks for taking the time to update us with your excellent research work in using water vapors and plasma spark.

As usual your explanation, pictures and videos are all top notch ;)

Very interesting to see all the changes that have come about in your research and now to the point where you get the same effect without using a spark enhancing circuit.

I think this again helps to confirmation that high energy input is not what's needed to get results.

Thanks to Robin David's great work, it's also obvious that spark plug geometry is an important part.

Maybe we can try a few Ignition Coils in parallel and observe if it makes a change. I  guess diodes could be used to keep the voltage from going back into each coil.

Thanks again for sharing and we are always looking forward in your results

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on May 08, 2009, 12:22:36 AM
Hi Greg,

I have one question for you:
What is a pipes around.Maybe Paul Pantone GEET processor.
Very interesting to see plasma effect without 400V.Only Firestorm in pressure.
Thank you Greg.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 08, 2009, 12:57:21 AM
Hi Alpeko,

I wish the pipes were for GEET.  They are a bypass circuit to replace the old ones on the engine.  If you look on the right side just under the intake manifold leading to the right cylinder bank, you will see the end of a cut tube.  It's the remainder of the old intake manifold heater circuit  that normally starts down on the right exhaust manifold on the nearest cylinder and from there follows the intake manifold up, over and down to the left side and into the muffler.  These get plugged up early in these engine's lives and become ineffective (design flaw). 

I was hoping to use the hot gas flow in this tube to make steam, but not enough flow.  So now I'll just use the right side to stuff a thermalcouple down for exhaust temperature monitoring.

Greg

P.S.  I suppose these new tubes could be used as a bubbler source for a HALF-GEET ... maybe?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on May 08, 2009, 10:11:39 AM
Hi Greg,

Thank you for explanation.I think that GEET is very good for better MPG.Why not use for water mist,cheap Chinese ,piezoelectric mistmakers.I try couple of this and obtain with plasma spark plug and mistmaker on 36v,about 40% BETTER mpg.Look on Alibaba for types mistmakers.

Happy work.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 08, 2009, 09:20:35 PM
Hi Greg,

Thank you for explanation.I think that GEET is very good for better MPG.Why not use for water mist,cheap Chinese ,piezoelectric mistmakers.I try couple of this and obtain with plasma spark plug and mistmaker on 36v,about 40% BETTER mpg.Look on Alibaba for types mistmakers.

Happy work.

Alpeko.

Hi Alpeko,

40% is very significant.  What plasma circuit did you use?

That's better increase than I got.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on May 08, 2009, 10:02:41 PM
Hi Greg,

My result is not better then yours.
:Yours result from Panacea
I completed my first test run. I drove 300 miles. 65% of that was freeway miles at 55 MPH. The rest was around town, stop and go, my guess is average about 20 MPH - 40 MPH.I want to say that the factory hype for this vehicle with the stock 1200 CC engine was 31.5 MPG (U.S.). I had the engine rebuilt - new jugs and pistons - which made it 1300 CC - a bigger engine with much more power - same carb as for the 1200 CC.During the test I ran the Vexus Circuit with its own Oscillator and Voltage Multiplier (doubler). I also made a water drip system that forced steam to be aspirated into the carburetor at a set rate (Bug-on-I-V).I topped the tank off with 8.44 Gallons of regular gasoline.
Do the math. Not only did we beat the factory estimate by 13% for the stock 1200 CC engine, we beat it with an even bigger, more powerful 1300 CC engine. We also beat the best mileage I ever got on this engine by 43 %!

In my test I use myself constructed 450V,dc converter.I use SG-3525 chip with ferite core transformer,and tr IRFZ-44N in driver side,in half bridge config.For protectiion I use 50 pcs.of 1N-5408 diodes.Ignition coils is stock,spark plug is NGK without resistor,cables is RG-6 foam coaxial.Mist maker is 36V,placed in engine intake manifold.Others is same.

Best reg.

Alpeko

P.S
Greg look on Aquapulser.This is like mine dc converter,and diode protection.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Rednekhippy on May 10, 2009, 12:24:17 AM
Please have a look at my post below which is also posted in the S1r replication thread and tell me what you think.

Hello from the Wet Coast (not a mistype) of Canada.

  This is my first post ever on any forum and I hope I haven't chosen a thread that has 'died'. The work that's being done here should be kept alive and well!
  I stumbled across S1r's video while surfing the net and was hooked instantly. So I decided to look into to it a bit further. After many nights of reading till my eyes bled and meditating on the info absorbed I was struck by a VERY strong mental image. It has taken me several weeks to read this thread and others (along with links/related articles) to get caught up to speed as to what it would take to make an ICE run on water. The more I read, the more this 'vision' I had is reinforced. There has been a couple of comments along the lines of what I've been thinking but they have not been given much attention. My friends and family are getting quite sick of hearing me rant on about this so I thought I'd overcome my shyness and share my thoughts here. This topic seems to have ground to a halt so whats the harm in giving it a kick in the butt. Well...here goes nothin...

  There seems to be 2 problems with the plasma spark:

  1) The spark isn't strong enough. This "brute force" approach seems to work well for gasoline(petrol) but it's not enough to explode water. From what I've seen/read so far this method seems to be a power hog and has a tendency to eat plugs.
  2) The "event" happens too fast to be of any use.
 
  Being and avid believer in the K.I.S.S. principle it would make sense to slow the "event" down. How? IMO vacuum is the answer. Just look up into space. It is just one giant vacuum where plasma can be sustained indefinitely. Joseph Papp understood this and used it in his motor. Cap70 proved this too when he said the engine in his video was in need of a rebuild. Could it be that blow-by past the rings was venting pressure on the compression stroke creating negative pressure when the plasma was being fired ATDC? Someone else (can't remember who now) mentioned they could fire their motor on water with retarded timing too but only for a short while. Could the heat caused from friction (causing air to expand) as the engine warmed up be counteracting the vacuum?
  Another piece of evidence for this vacuum theory is the sound of the engines in Cap70 and S1r's videos. I've heard this before trying to start an engine with the timing too far advanced. It will preignite and counter rotate sending fuel vapor/pillar of flame out the carb. It will also suck the exhaust valve open as the piston travels backwards down the exhaust stroke, causing that funny noise. Is that why S1r claims his El Camino runs with reduced power? Cause the valve springs aren't strong enough to keep the valves closed? It would also be a good reason to explain why the oil dosen't turn grey from water contamination (ever blow a head gasket?) caused by blow-by past the rings (which is inevitable in an ICE)
  The final straw for cementing this theory into my heart and mind (making that little voice in my head say: "I told you so") is even Stan Meyer uses the vacuum principle in his patents. This little secret is not mentioned in words but it IS there.

  "A picture is worth a thousand words"

  Have (another) look at patent #5,293,857 http://www.google.com/patents?id=fPEbAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=stanley+a+meyer scroll down to fig. 3 and tell me what is fundamentally WRONG with this picture.
  Are these guys using neg. pressure+plasma to create pos. pressure near BDC?
 
  Sorry this post has gotten so long but this has been building up in me for quite some time and I needed to get it off my chest. I am quite broke atm and can't afford to replicate. Also my electrical skills are not up to the level needed to build the plasma circuit. I am slowing gathering the materials/knowledge needed to test this theory myself and I call upon those who are set up already to try this out.

Any feedback of any kind would be appreciated.

TYVM,
Red
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 10, 2009, 12:43:14 AM
Hi Red,

I took the liberty to copy and paste your post here as the S1R topic does not have much activity these days so you may have more comments here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 10, 2009, 01:06:16 AM
Thanks Red for sending me your PM to introduce yourself :)

I'm happy to see your enthusiasm ;D and interest of the idea of using plasma and water as fuel for an engine.

I do agree that we still need to do test with a vacuum instead of just compression. I do have a clear Lexan piston and cylinder that I have not finished building for testing this and many other combination.

I was waiting for the warm weather to one again continue with the experiments outdoors. The warmer weather is now starting but I was just offered some work last week and agree to it since I do need some more cash. So it will be a little slow from my side for the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for sharing and don't stop the enthusiasm ;)

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 10, 2009, 01:22:00 AM
Hi Luc,

I never became familiar with any of the "s1r9a9m9" stuff.  Can you please steer me to the original postings ... if possible?

How are you doing these days?  I'm getting some interesting results from my Bug since I changed the intake.   I am getting a much better introduction of steam into the engine than I ever had.  You know I still have the complete electronics and distributor I first built that was based on the original DPDT relay demo of the water spark plug ... mosfet switches and all.  I'm thinking about putting that back in.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 10, 2009, 02:14:20 AM
Hi Luc,

I never became familiar with any of the "s1r9a9m9" stuff.  Can you please steer me to the original postings ... if possible?

How are you doing these days?  I'm getting some interesting results from my Bug since I changed the intake.   I am getting a much better introduction of steam into the engine than I ever had.  You know I still have the complete electronics and distributor I first built that was based on the original DPDT relay demo of the water spark plug ... mosfet switches and all.  I'm thinking about putting that back in.

Greg

Hi Greg,

here is the link to s1r9a9m9 yahoo group:  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/  You need to join the group to read or access files. I don't know of anything there that would be any better then what you have achieved on your own but it can never hurt to look.

I'm happy to see you continuing the development ;D and hope your new findings will lead you to more discoveries as I'm sure the World is watching. Maybe before you try the original circuit see if you can try to double, triple or even quad the coils in parallel since I keep thinking the effect is more voltage dependent but I think one coil may not be enough energy. I have been told by someone who worked on a working 100% water jet engine that 23,000+ volts at a certain energy level is required to dissociate the water. They were also using a very small amount of Hydrogen to start the reaction.

I'm away from home visiting my sons first born son at this time and when I get back I accepted a contract to work. Interesting timing as I was just about to continue where I left off last year when winter struck. So, I afraid anything new from me will be slow for the next couple of weeks anyways.

All the best in your continuing research and as always, thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alpeko on May 10, 2009, 02:28:09 PM
Hi Greg,
Yes,450V on spark plug,and enough water mist in intake,is the best option for effect.

Thank you for experiments.

Alpeko.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 14, 2009, 07:29:48 PM
end of the line

Hi all,

Well the Bug has been restored to stock except for the Firestorm plugs ... for now.  Closing my doors & gotta get rid of everything.  Can't afford storage.

Needless to say I am not going to just toss everything into the dumpster, not both plasma circuits, not the custom solid state distributor for the original plasma circuit and not the Bug either.  If you are following my meaning(s) here, I'm in San Diego California.  PM me and we'll go private from there.

It's been fun,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 15, 2009, 03:28:39 AM
It is truly sad :( that Billions are spent on War and even alternative Energy research but nothing comes out of it that can really help the people.

People!!!... you need to wake up :o ... take control of your life because your Government is not going to do it for you ::)

Greg, I am truly sorry to see how the real researchers in this crazy profit only oriented world end up. Nikola Tesla did not finish his life in an honorable way. This is the price we pay when we try to help or fellow man. Good thing crucifixion is not in style :P

Greg my friend I wish you new beginnings in your life changes. Please drop us a post on your journey when you can :)

Peace and Love to you brother!

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HaroldCR on May 15, 2009, 07:45:05 PM

 Damn Greg
 Sad to read your last post. I have followed every post on this forum with your project.

  My wife's Son is a mechanic down here, and, I am trying to get him to understand your project and rig up a system on his car. I believe he can get a nice bit of income helping others down here.

  Is there a way to stay in contact, in case I need to ask a question or two ???

  I am on a fixed income and had hoped to help with donations to these researchers, but, things are bad down here, and the Govt. is allowing rates to go up, in this recession ???  How the hell people are supposed to live, is a real problem. However, extermination is what the powers to be are looking for. It's ALL greed, except for fine folks like you and the others that post all their projects on these forums.

  Thank You for sharing your project, and, good luck in the future.  Harold in Costa Rica
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 15, 2009, 08:46:08 PM
Damn Greg
 Sad to read your last post. I have followed every post on this forum with your project.

  My wife's Son is a mechanic down here, and, I am trying to get him to understand your project and rig up a system on his car. I believe he can get a nice bit of income helping others down here.

  Is there a way to stay in contact, in case I need to ask a question or two ???

  I am on a fixed income and had hoped to help with donations to these researchers, but, things are bad down here, and the Govt. is allowing rates to go up, in this recession ???  How the hell people are supposed to live, is a real problem. However, extermination is what the powers to be are looking for. It's ALL greed, except for fine folks like you and the others that post all their projects on these forums.

  Thank You for sharing your project, and, good luck in the future.  Harold in Costa Rica

Hi Harold,

Thanks for your comments.  Yes, our government (US) has only one use for productive US citizens now and that is to finance the new world order.  Population reduction is actually the main goal.  Extermination is a real prospect.  Obama's recent $75billion deal to homeowners to buy down upside down mortgages has a catch ... it's a taxable event.  If your mortgage is adjusted down ... let's say $50,000, they let the IRS count that $50,000 as income to you.  I think the first amendment is still in force but just to keep it safe I won't say what I really think of Obama, his thugs and the speaker.

I'll scan the the groups for as long as I still have a connection.  I wish I could find a bunch of people around here to get together, find a plot of land, put up a couple of metal buildings, pool resources fund with some regular jobs of course but also facilitate some of these research projects.  The independent researcher will not see one cent of Obama's $billions earmarked for energy independence ...only the huge multinational energy companies will see that money ... and it will be from lobbying, political influence and every other form of corruption that is contrary to what made America and Americans great in the first place.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tony b on May 19, 2009, 10:54:19 PM
Hi all. 

This is all so exciting! Some of my perhaps "off the wall" comments and ideas on this subject.

It's with great interest that I've gone through all the posts, viewed all the YouTube videos both related to plasma spark and water for fuel experiments.  From my observations, it appears plasma spark ignition does appear to explode mists of water, with a "direct burn" of the hydrogen (?) in the water negating the need for electrolysis first.

The main problem appears to be delivery of  water in a highly enough atomized state to burn well, something clearly not possible by misting water into a carburetor or utilizing a regular fuel injection system that only runs at system pressures of about 40-60 psi.

It seems that the "ideal" would be the fuel system of a direct injection engine running at 510-1740 psi. Would this not be better suited for atomizing water to almost a molecular level in trying to run an engine on water?  The arc of the plasma ignition may then ignite/burn the water mixture with little problem.  http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060518.001/2008-gm-36-liter-vvt-engine-with-direct-injection

Clearly there would be experimentation needed on ranges of timing, different designs for injectors, and perhaps increasing the engine's compression ratios and so on, to determine the optimal combination to make this work - if at all possible - but it's a start.

I think I also came across someone's calculations that hydrogen has 3 times the energy of gasoline (?) per volume.  If this is so, then the engine's computer could be tuned to regulate fuel flow to 35% of that of gasoline for the equivalent power, with subsequent tuning either increasing a vehicle's range of travel or power output. 

In either case, the only thing coming out of the tailpipe is water vapor!!  ;D
 



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: 555 on May 20, 2009, 10:18:52 PM
In my test I use myself constructed 450V,dc converter.I use SG-3525 chip with ferite core transformer,and tr IRFZ-44N in driver side,in half bridge config.For protectiion I use 50 pcs.of 1N-5408 diodes.Ignition coils is stock,spark plug is NGK without resistor,cables is RG-6 foam coaxial.Mist maker is 36V,placed in engine intake manifold.Others is same.

Hi Alpeko,

Do you mind to show us your project (diagram) using SG3525
since aquapulser RPG4700 its not so "Open Source"...

Best Regards

Nelson
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on May 27, 2009, 12:24:51 AM
Hi all,

I've compiled my videos into to a couple of archives.  One is a DVD Video with a navigation menu and some slide shows all in higher resolution than on YouTube.  The other is a DVD Data Disc with still higher resolution files than on the DVD Video.  1st the Video then the Data Disc.

Yes, I'm so low I intend to sell these ... $14.99 and $19.99 + S&H.  Pieces of evolving history.

Any takers?

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on June 24, 2009, 03:47:33 AM
Restored to stock:

I have been selling stuff and just today I removed the Firestorm plugs from my Bug, re-enabled the automatic choke, re-timed, tuned and installed the stock jets, in preparation for selling it.

Now that it has been restored I must say that the difference between how it drove with the Firestorms vs how it runs stock is drastic! I can't tell you what a 'dog' it once again is.

Those plasma generating plugs had a huge impact ... ran lean, no choke needed, 40% better mileage, etc., and on, and on.

Someone should continue researching the Firestorm plugs!

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 24, 2009, 05:43:31 AM
Thanks for the encouraging :) words and update Greg!

Robin David and myself are continuing the research and will report our finding once we have some good results to show.

All the best to you.

Luc





Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: themuteprophet on July 05, 2009, 04:43:06 AM
Hello all,

I stumbled upon s1r's initial diagrams and claims a few years back and was immediately struck with how little was understood about water arc ignitions.  In light of this, I have spent a large amount of time researching this phenomena, developing the right conditions for an ignition, and talking with Hathaway.

I see that there has been quite a lot of research done here as well...and I would love to share what I have discovered.  I read some of the pages in this post, but short of reading all 271, would someone be willing to inform me on the current status of this project so that I'm not repeating theory that is already in use?  What have you discovered beyond s1r/tero's initial successes?

-The Mute Prophet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2009, 06:45:25 AM
Hi themuteprophet,

welcome to the topic :)

To answer you quickly. None of us have been able to run a standard gasoline combustion engine on 100% water not even the latest Robert Krupa's Firestorm plug team with a $200,K budget was able to do it.

However user: gmeast (Greg) is the one who has taken it the furthest. He was using water that was changed to steam with exhaust heat contact and running it to his carburetor intake and was able to retard his timing and achieve somewhere around a 47% drop in fuel consumption. He had some Nickel Firestorm Plug replicas made by Robin David and was using his own developed VexUs circuit.

I started this topic and had to stop my research last October because of winter and have recently been trying to get back to testing but I've been trying to bring to a close another project I started during the winter months but just now have come across a very promising effect and it looks like I'll have to put off the test continuation until that is done.

Please feel free to share your ideas and or discoveries since many are still keeping an eye on this topic even though it has come to a stall in development updates and or new ideas.

Looking forward to read what you have found.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: MasterPlaster on July 05, 2009, 12:44:48 PM
I have come by some information that would be useful for people who want to use water as fuel. I have not been able to find a better copy of this document any where else.

"Electrically induced explosion in water"

Go to page 71 of

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16899127/Meyer-WFC-Extra-Info

Water is only explosive when exposed to certain frequencies.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: themuteprophet on July 05, 2009, 04:08:50 PM
Thanks for the update, Luc.

I have seen the VexUs circuit and, while I am still somewhat confused on some of what its components are doing, I hope that reading more of these posts will give me some more insight into it.  I have also read of the firestorm plugs and am excited to hear of his great success with them.

It seems to me that most of the problems arising out of these various circuit designs are because, in general, the conditions in the cylinder are left uncontrolled. 

First is the purity of the water.  In speaking with them, I have come to understand that the Hathaway and Graneau experiments were most successful when used with distilled water.  While they seemed to have very little explanation as to why, I think that MasterPlaster's post on Meyer's work explains the reasoning behind it.  Whatever the fuel source is that is being used, it's application is highly susceptible to the conditions at the arc.  Most impurities act as electrolytes in the water, thereby drastically changing the voltage breakdown requirement for an arc channel to form and also changing the frequency at which the current is delivered to the medium.  Hathaway also discussed with me the same sort of effect occurring in air (with no fog added), the mechanics of which he claims to be entirely unable to understand.

Second is something that both the gmeast circuits and the s1r-tero circuit seem to take into account.  Of critical importance (after forming an arc channel) is the speed and amount of current delivered.  Circuits that attempt to incorporate large capacitors with high voltages are wasting quite a bit of power needlessly.  Low-voltage capacitors or another, step-down transformer from the source, coupled with the HV input at the gap achieves the same effect for a fraction of the cost.  As I mentioned here, the speed of the current's discharge at the gap is also critical and is directly proportional to the size of the explosion--this is why many engines seem to run much smoother at higher rpms.  It may be that, in the end, the functioning engine will idle much higher than their gasoline counterparts.

Third, the size of the explosion vs current size/speed appears to be exponential, not logarithmic as is standard in conventional engines.  That is, low current applications are going to heed essentially no results.  Unfortunately, too few experiments have been done with this factor in mind (determining the tipping point of effective explosions) to adequately determine some sort of relation between the conditions at the spark and the current delivered.  I can, however, state with some certainty that adding hundreds of amps is insufficient.  It is very likely that an engine based on water-arc explosions will require many kA to run.  It is therefore all the more important to divide the circuit into high current and high voltage.

There's more, but I'll wait for now to see if any of what I've said is useful.

-The Mute Prophet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
Hi themuteprophet,

all what you share sounds good but the bottom line is someone has to build it to see the real world effects.

Until this gets done we will only be adding more pages to this topic.

Sorry to come down with this but I think we know that's how it's going to work out in the end.

Are you the builder or do you have funds to assist a builder?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: themuteprophet on July 06, 2009, 01:32:13 AM
Nope and nope.

It is indeed amazing that simple progress cannot be funded.  I have also been unsucessful in obtaining funds to research.  Thanks, though.

-The Mute Prophet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 10, 2009, 04:22:04 AM
Hi everyone,

I am posting a post from the Energetic Forum posted at the Water Sparkplug topic by user: Spokane1

Spokane1 has tested the spark circuit using SPICE III and below are his 2 posts and also his attached Word documents of the reports.

Luc


Gentlemen,

Has anyone observed a very distinct RF Burst (greater than 200KHz) right after the discharge of this circuit? (Basic Gotoluc topology). It lasts for about 10 uS and is composed of a series of 300 Amp sawtooth discharges. It is frequency modulated and appears to be a relaxation oscillator type response.

This is a classical response that has been modeled using SPICE III. It is a most interesting wave form - but does it happen in actual field circuits of this type?

Spokane1

Dear Mr. Gotoluc,

Attached are three word documents that contain the simulated circuit and a few waveforms plus a short commentary. The SPICE III program outputs a Windows Meta File which only seems to work with Word.

I have completed 95% of an evaluation circuit to see if these RF bursts really exist. I suppose a lot of it is determined by the nature of the spark gap.

IF I get positive results I shall post some scope traces as well.

Spokane1
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 13, 2009, 03:40:49 AM
Hi everyone,

another test report from Spokane1 but this time he used the real circuit and lab equipment to test.

many thanks to Spokane1 for taking the time to do this great service and sharing the results.

Luc


Gentlemen,

It appears that a sawtooth RF burst does take place in the Basic Gotoluc circuit almost like the SPICE III simulator describes.

This is not an exhaustive study but a simple test to see if it was there. The gap is composed of tool steel with the negative (ground) electrode being sharpened. The effect is much greater when the gap is opened up to just short of were it will not arc. In this case the gap is 0.284". The storage cap is a 25 uF 600V oil-paper motor starter type. The power supply is voltage regulated at 300V. The battery operates the contactor to isolate the capacitor from the power supply during a pulse test. The capacitor shunt diode is a little overkill for this application (770 Amp) but I needed something that would handle 30 Amps. The HV diode is a 4-unit string of 8KV at 4 Amp microwave oven devices. The coil is a GM wasted spark model ($3.00 at the local junk yard). This coil has an isolated secondary which might be important because it allows for the polarity of the secondary to be reversed (See SPICE circuit on previous post).

The first scope trace shows the voltage across the gap as measured with a Tektronix 12KV probe. The probe is being driven past its linear range for the initial pulse but it does show the follow up burst wave form OK. The effect only shows voltage swings around 500V. This means that the arc will re-strike at a much lower voltage than the initial breakdown, which is around 15KV in this test, but way off the screen.

The second scope trace is a time expanded version of the first trace. Here we see the sawtooth nature of this process. Notice how the magnitude of the wave train remains relatively constant. The frequency of a single tooth during this portion of the burst is around 116 KHz. The actual frequency content would be higher than this due to its shape. This sample was taken from the last third of the burst where the frequency is slowing down anyway.

It will be interesting to see if this effect can be enhanced.

This observation might help those OU theories that require a HF source to explain any proposed non-classical process.

Spokane1
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aussepom on July 28, 2009, 06:30:51 AM
Hi guys
              have you  see these yet
  this is water burning

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LMRIcx-pm0&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn9-ZK9y2Uk

  the second one was disappointing, but not sure how to use it in a car yet, unless it has a steam engine
I have been off the forums for a while computor problems, managed to just get on, but I can receive at the moment, will have to do a rebuild, some of this stuff looks good.  not sure if I will get back for awhile.
aussepom
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2009, 06:20:19 AM
Hi aussepom,

very interesting find :D

Thanks for sharing :)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: BLACKY on August 07, 2009, 12:42:28 PM
Hello

I am new here in this forum. And its fantastic! ;)

I build up some teslacoils, magnet-motors (bedini-like), influence-machines and more. Now i try to build up a water plasma arc und i have no idea how to build. The capicator in my first circuit changed into smoke. It take an hour to get the whole smoke out of my room. :-[
 
Can somebody help me to build up the circuit like the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I  video? ???

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on August 14, 2009, 02:36:47 PM
hi i did few test with plasma spark with scooter
water is added with gasoline...it seems to work fine...

i'm going to try with 24v~30v with high current     250v is way to dangerous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=-rL6WWuOgZE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Cherryman on August 14, 2009, 02:49:02 PM
@ Dreamyear.

I see you pouring the water into the tank, you're video say: 30% water.

But when i think of that, that would mean that you're engine is running on about 100% water. Because the 70% of gasoline will float ON TOP of the 30% water, so the fuel intake will suck first the water out, and then the gas.. 

Or do you mix the two in front of the carburetor?

Just wondering...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on August 14, 2009, 11:24:58 PM
Hi Cherryman
I did not mix the two in front of the carburetor...only used the gas tank as main fuel source.

thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: scalar wave on August 17, 2009, 03:55:46 PM
Dreamyear,

what circuit are you using for your system?

Is there a circuit diagram posted somewhere?

Sounds like you're already running on water, good job!

Scalar Wave
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mukulia design on August 23, 2009, 10:30:31 AM
WOW. 272 pages of lots of good info. on this thread. i have a 1967 dodge 318 running petrol/ hho/ and i want to do plasma spark.

HAS ANYONE SEEN or can provide link to REAL CAR OR TRUCK running on WATER with plasma spark.


instead of a store boughtinverter. can anyone provide diagram and components for simple homemade one. ::)

hope to have components for this project by end of month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E50EAk04zCU
Title: PCB DESIGN. & inverters
Post by: mukulia design on August 23, 2009, 12:58:28 PM
just found some PCB DESIGNS for the vexus circuits .

i was wondering if basic transformer inverter could be put on board with this. so external inverter not needed.
Title: can VEXUS board wires go to DISTRIBUTOR CAP not plubs
Post by: mukulia design on August 23, 2009, 01:00:59 PM
 ???
just wondering if the diode wires from VEXUS pcb boards could go TO DISTRIBUTOR CAP instead of all the way to plugs ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mukulia design on August 29, 2009, 02:09:19 AM
could it be possible to add a high frequency control circuit to these devices. didnt meyers talk alot about specific frequency???

here is switchable and dialable frequency circuit in HV PS
http://www.imagesco.com/science/high-voltage/HV-power-supply.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on August 29, 2009, 07:32:16 AM
Here is a little work bench I want to make for testing exploding water.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on October 14, 2009, 01:33:34 AM
Free energy TPU (Steve Marks) VIDEO


please spread this video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MYVmtF4JYg



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 14, 2009, 02:40:46 AM
Hi dreamyear,

what would be the point of spreading a video that after so many experimenters and years no one has been able to replicate this technology ???

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not against this, I dream of this and the truth is, it's the TPU that first got me started in research.

I think we should use our time on spreading things that have been found to give some kind of effect to which plans or schematics are available for replication to further study or develop.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Goat on October 14, 2009, 05:51:31 AM
@ Gotoluc & All

I haven't had a chance to go through all the thread to find out if Tesla's Hairpin (Stout Copper Bar) has been discussed as HV source for the spark for the water as a fuel project?

If you were to use a small 12 VDC/120 VAC inverter to drive the Tesla coil and have a circuit to act as the old style engine "points" the charge in the capacitors could be built up quickly.  You could also run the rest of the Hairpin circuit above the capcitors to recharge the battery (maybe).

Just my 2 cents, hope it makes sense and hasn't been discussed already earlier in the thread.

Regards,
Paul




 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 14, 2009, 07:09:53 AM
Hi Paul,

I would definitely say that would be worthy of experimenting with.

Thanks for sharing the idea

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on October 27, 2009, 11:44:58 AM
HHO  with plasma spark  water car project (1st prototype)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX2d7-AbAB0
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on October 27, 2009, 07:31:41 PM
Interesting experiment you have there dreamyear ;)

Looking forward to seeing a video while it's running.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on November 20, 2009, 03:42:37 PM
TPU experiment (video)


9v battery powering 100 watt light bulb


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eX8z6JA1tM
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: MasterPlaster on November 21, 2009, 01:35:52 PM
TPU experiment (video)


9v battery powering 100 watt light bulb


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eX8z6JA1tM

Yawn... Seen it before.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lefferdink on December 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
hey dream year:  I have viewed the steven marks video. This guy certainly has cracked free energy. Have you been able to buy one of those devices? or yet get in touch with his product. I hope that he is protecting himself cause you know how big oil likes to bump off inventers and how the government might put a stop to him.  I want one of those units.
Regards
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 24, 2010, 11:57:35 PM
dreamyear: Congratulations for successful water engine replication!!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on May 25, 2010, 07:08:08 PM
fget2a
quote:

dreamyear: Congratulations for successful water engine replication!!!!
----------------------------

Where??

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 25, 2010, 07:34:17 PM
fget2a
quote:

dreamyear: Congratulations for successful water engine replication!!!!
----------------------------

Where??

Thanks
Chet


Hi... !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLwZ8a3uCHI

successfull plasma ignition replication.... working engine with water.
2 stroke engine. if wants, he speaks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on May 25, 2010, 08:33:32 PM
I thought this was fake??

Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 25, 2010, 10:05:45 PM
http://designstudioexpress.com/simple_setup_rev3.png

This circuit is not accurate. more than one piece of circuit board can work.
Unfortunately, use a compiler (software).





Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on May 25, 2010, 10:13:24 PM
http://designstudioexpress.com/simple_setup_rev3.png

This circuit is not accurate. more than one piece of circuit board can work.
Unfortunately, use a compiler (software).
LOL....not accurate?

Thats my design, my site...it does work! :)

The only problem was prolonged diode life and voltage leakage....

JULY 5th 2008!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5024.msg110213#msg110213

seems like a lifetime ago....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 25, 2010, 10:40:57 PM
LOL....not accurate?

Thats my design, my site...it does work! :)

The only problem was prolonged diode life and voltage leakage....

JULY 5th 2008!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5024.msg110213#msg110213

seems like a lifetime ago....


XBOX Hacker: you have one "runnin on water engine"?
I think not only diodes.
fgab2a

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on May 25, 2010, 10:53:05 PM

XBOX Hacker: you have one "runnin on water engine"?
I think not only diodes.
fgab2a

This design works to the effect of: creating a 300VDC(+) "Plasma Spark" discharge on a spark plug, facilitated by the HV discharge form the ignition source! SO, does it work... YES!!!

Like i said, the HV blocking blocking diodes gave me problems with leakage... so i went with a 4th design based off of this one in conjunction with a design from Cap70....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 25, 2010, 10:54:39 PM
a large number of electrical circuit problem ... "voltage leaking"
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 25, 2010, 10:59:06 PM
This design works to the effect of: creating a 300VDC(+) "Plasma Spark" discharge on a spark plug, facilitated by the HV discharge form the ignition source! SO, does it work... YES!!!

Like i said, the HV blocking blocking diodes gave me problems with leakage... so i went with a 4th design based off of this one in conjunction with a design from Cap70....



There are a number of circuits, but the effect is not always the same. There are differences. water burns.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 25, 2010, 11:10:32 PM
This design works to the effect of: creating a 300VDC(+) "Plasma Spark" discharge on a spark plug, facilitated by the HV discharge form the ignition source! SO, does it work... YES!!!

Like i said, the HV blocking blocking diodes gave me problems with leakage... so i went with a 4th design based off of this one in conjunction with a design from Cap70....

70 cap coil circuit, aggressive fluid effects built into the water. rapid transformation liquid water - vapor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVFMLG8OhPY
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 26, 2010, 05:11:41 AM

Hi... !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLwZ8a3uCHI

successfull plasma ignition replication.... working engine with water.
2 stroke engine. if wants, he speaks.

Hi fget2a,

thanks for bringing dreamyear's video demo to this topic.

This is the first time I see this video. It would be nice if dreamyear posted some details as to what charge voltage and cap size he used.

Myself I stopped experimenting on this over a year ago as the ball had started to roll and I could see that more knowledgeable users would develop this to a finer art like the Aquapulser Team did: http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html

@xbox hacker, glad to see you're still around ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 26, 2010, 08:44:23 AM
Hi fget2a,

thanks for bringing dreamyear's video demo to this topic.

This is the first time I see this video. It would be nice if dreamyear posted some details as to what charge voltage and cap size he used.

Myself I stopped experimenting on this over a year ago as the ball had started to roll and I could see that more knowledgeable users would develop this to a finer art like the Aquapulser Team did: http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html

@xbox hacker, glad to see you're still around ;)

Luc


Luc: "further some details"  ?
diodes setup.....  ?  continuation coil?   LV cap.? LV voltage 140V?

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on May 26, 2010, 02:42:48 PM
@fget2a

Nice demo  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FksWsEb7zig


@Luc

I'm still lurking in the shadows...lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 26, 2010, 09:35:45 PM
@fget2a

Nice demo  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FksWsEb7zig


@Luc

I'm still lurking in the shadows...lol

i use home built cdi ignition system, for "HV" side...  30 KV
i use cap70 similar "Voltage-amperage mixer coil" elektrical circuit.
without "mixer coil" no exploding water on open air.
in engine working little effect of exploding water.
if my without mixer coil, then no little effekt in 250ccm Yamaha engine.
there is a problem "voltage leaking".
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fget2a on May 26, 2010, 10:58:14 PM
LOL....not accurate?

Thats my design, my site...it does work! :)

The only problem was prolonged diode life and voltage leakage....

JULY 5th 2008!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5024.msg110213#msg110213

seems like a lifetime ago....


"Voltage leaking"
amperage is possible leaks. If it continued, the LV circle. it takes more than a small engine with water-2000mF 4000mF?....
hmm.. possible??? ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HUMPHREY on May 29, 2010, 06:59:52 PM
I have tried the first circuit with a chevy igniton coil from a distributor cap. There is a small spark when the diodes are disconnected, but when the diodes are connected it seems to be shorting across the diodes. Could it be the ignition coil?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 30, 2010, 03:50:50 AM
I have tried the first circuit with a chevy igniton coil from a distributor cap. There is a small spark when the diodes are disconnected, but when the diodes are connected it seems to be shorting across the diodes. Could it be the ignition coil?

If the coil can make a spark then it sounds like it's working. It sounds like the HV of the coil is making its way to ground through the diodes. I would check each diode to make sure each one is good. You should have a minimum of 10 good Diodes or more if the coil's HV is weak. I also recommend using 1N5408 as they are rated at 1000 volts 3amp each.

All the best.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: altenergyshift on June 27, 2010, 07:53:25 AM
This is pretty amazing! Sharing
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on July 14, 2010, 12:19:52 AM
Free energy (DreamYear HHO circuit)

back emf and transformer charges 2nd battery...all u have to do is swap the battery



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-q0gcLNcUQ

http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/5b/42/dreamyear44/folder/3/img_3_204_1?1279018300.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7892/dreamyearhho.jpg

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 14, 2010, 02:43:40 AM
Free energy (DreamYear HHO circuit)

back emf and transformer charges 2nd battery...all u have to do is swap the battery



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-q0gcLNcUQ

http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/5b/42/dreamyear44/folder/3/img_3_204_1?1279018300.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7892/dreamyearhho.jpg

Hi dreamyear,

I would recommend two things.

One is, you should be posting this in an HHO topic. However, since this topic is not active anymore I will leave it here for now. However, if it gets much attention it will have to move to a new topic.

The second thing is, your second charge battery connection I believe has a problem. If you want to collect the collapsing field of the transformer primary you should connect it Bedini style. See the edited schematic I did for you.

You should do a test of how many amps is drawn when the complete circuit is in operation and then another test but remove the transformer and charge batteries from the circuit to see if the current stays the same. If the current is less then with the transformer attached then there is no gain. If it is the same then you have something ;)

All the best to you

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 14, 2010, 03:09:57 AM

Link to DreamYear HHO circuit topic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9421.msg248579#msg248579
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dreamyear on July 14, 2010, 03:15:40 AM
thanks i'll test this circuit and check the amps draw
nice nice redraw


Hi dreamyear,

I would recommend two things.

One is, you should be posting this in an HHO topic. However, since this topic is not active anymore I will leave it here for now. However, if it gets much attention it will have to move to a new topic.

The second thing is, your second charge battery connection I believe has a problem. If you want to collect the collapsing field of the transformer primary you should connect it Bedini style. See the edited schematic I did for you.

You should do a test of how many amps is drawn when the complete circuit is in operation and then another test but remove the transformer and charge batteries from the circuit to see if the current stays the same. If the current is less then with the transformer attached then there is no gain. If it is the same then you have something ;)

All the best to you

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2010, 04:28:06 PM
Hi everyone,

it has been a while since I have shared new information.

I have been contacted by a YouTube user: theWIKWIPmaker of a new spark plug design that he has invented. He claims this would greatly help at solving the missing puzzle to make an engine work on water.

It looks promising to me :)

Here is his video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xnX71ydGpU&feature=email

Please share your thoughts and or replication attempts.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 19, 2010, 04:32:30 PM
Here is what theWIKWIPmaker has written about his sparkplug design

Luc

theWIKWIPmaker  |   August 19, 2010

OK, now I want to give to Mankind a great Present!
Now I give you all my Input without any return!
The majority of you are using still a damned Spark Plug. Why? Every video show the same problem. I see always a mist between the electrodes or water film on them. And al the spark plugs are arranged horizontal on tables or turned with the electrodes to the sky. Some of you had the idea to conduct some vapour to the Gap. Forget these pleas! It is the wrong way!
I recognized immediately that this is your main problem.
Now listen to me! Forget al spark plugs and create a totally new one!
If you want to hold water on or between the electrodes you should use a sponge! I solved with my WIK-WIP a second problem that you al have with your spark plugs still our days. My WIK-WIP can conduct through the plus electrode water and will charge the tungsten sponge after each ionisation immediately with water. As you can se in the video, I have no Tungsten-Sponge.
The problem is nobody can buy the tungsten filter. They are still not produced! And therefore nobody have a chance to make experiments with them.
I think we can convince some special companies who work with tungsten to start a mass production for us. A sponge of tungsten will be better. But there can be also a problem with them too. Tungsten will react with hot oxygen to tungsten three oxide and will not live too long as we want. I don't know! I hope the water from the inside will cool the heating area. We can also protect the surface of the tungsten sponge by galvanizing them with platinum.
The Discharge works with:
-massive avalanche of ionisation
-UV-arrays from the Plasma
-separation of water by 1700°C
It's a electrolysis, photolysis, thermolysis.
The metal sponge made of tungsten, suck the water through his body and hold it still the ionisation start.
Between the sponge and the mass electrode the current start to flow and the water begins to evaporate caused by the rapid increasing temperature. The great part of the sponge is now shooting by very fast electrons that come from the big discharging. The electrons create a massive avalanche of ionisation to the water molecules. In this avalanche are appearing a lot of hydrogen and oxygen atoms and also "damaged" Water molecules. They are not really damaged but they lose some electrons. So they get radical. At the same time appears the plasma with the UV arrays which is now shooting again to the water molecules and to the radicals. At the same time the area gets hotter then 1700°C. At this temperature the water molecules will separate also in H² and O². Now the mixture reaches a critical point because there are a lot of Hydrogen and Oxygen in it. Suddenly it starts to burn. It burns very fast and causes a big explosive pressure. The surface of the sponge is now nearly free from water. But the water flow immediately from the inside to the surface and file it up. And the next tact can start again.
I don't know which circuit is the best and more efficient to run the WIK-WIP. I'm not expert!
But there is one think that everybody should think abut:
The WIK-WIP needs a great discharge to create a good ionization and to produce great plasmas.
Only the ionisation of water in combination with the plasma produces the pressure which we need for our engines and nothing else!

I think the Water as Fuel-Technology will change the world.
It will create a world without pollution and poverty!

Pleas continue this good work!
Many Thanks to capacitor70, s1r9a9m9, gotoluc, glotoniok and all the other good man!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 26, 2010, 03:06:31 AM
Hi all,
 
this maybe of interest: YouTube - Geet Pantone Engine Concept Demo by Andreas Kalcker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYjmJYI4aJI)

It is basically the GEET design but no rod and magnetization stuff. I believe Andreas Kalcker  has it right.

Please have a look and post your comments

Luc

Added: He explains it well at 6.55 min. in the video.

Here is his YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/aluka1603?blend=2&ob=1#p/u
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: MasterPlaster on August 26, 2010, 02:00:56 PM
But the video is only 2:58 long!?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: forest on August 26, 2010, 04:05:14 PM
But the video is only 2:58 long!?

and at 2.59 he is saying interesting things about polarization process. Incdredible !  :P
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on August 26, 2010, 05:20:20 PM
But the video is only 2:58 long!?

Hi,

I, also, am trying to find the video he speaks of.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on August 26, 2010, 06:16:06 PM
Hi,

I, also, am trying to find the video he speaks of.

Hi all,

I viewed this vide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdrjkIZebtM

It shows THE SINGLE huge mistake researchers make.  In concluding, he uses the full rated load of the small ohmic (joule) heater can consume for his SFC estimation.  That would be accurate if the engine was producing/running at 50-60 Hz ... which it clearly is NOT.  One of his other videos showed a lamp being used as a load but it was producing 'dim' light.

Be honest with yourselves when drawing conclusions on this stuff.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on August 27, 2010, 04:55:41 AM
But the video is only 2:58 long!?

Sorry, this is the video I am referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYjmJYI4aJI&feature=related

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on August 27, 2010, 11:40:05 PM
This is pretty amazing! Sharing

...should have been around when the water sparkplug work was going on.

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: diehostusxana on August 29, 2010, 02:53:57 PM
Hello, guys,
I am newbee to this forum, although have been watching for a while.
The experiment from gotoluc, which is posted on the first page (power inverter + bridge + 10diodes + ignition coil + switch + sparkplug), I suceeded: I did attach to 220V, took 450v/100uF capacitator, the coil from Accel (high performance racing coil, the 140010, from ebay.com, told to be 50kV). The plasma effect was obvious. Fine :)
Then I look around to put it on some car.
My problem & question: within the ignition system, the distributor is giving pulses within '-' cable and not '+' (so '+' is always on and ground is pulsed). How should I adopt the gotoluc electronics, to apply the circuit to car? Should I use some MOSFET (?which?) to open '+' to diode's imput as soon as ground is on?
I tried to leave a constant '+'(220v) to the diodes and just pulsing (the capacitator + switch) input of ignition coil - all my diodes burned out with the second time of switch on (I observed also a bigger spark than before - could it be key also to even bigger spark?)
I haven't read full text of this forum - if somewhere the answer is already hanging, please give me a link.

another question - has somebody of you, dear guys, managed to make car working with pure water "burning"? Or else, maybe someone know max ratio up to which one should mix gasoline-to-water?
and the last question, has somebody tried using this ignition + HHO+ warm/hot WaterVapor?

hope somebody will help me :)
I am in Germany, Bremen - so if there are some "the guys" around, let me know :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on August 29, 2010, 03:03:56 PM
Welcome,
Lots of good guys in your neighborhood
Here

http://www.overunity.de/

Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on August 29, 2010, 08:36:29 PM
Hello, guys,
I am newbee to this forum, although have been watching for a while.
The experiment from gotoluc, which is posted on the first page (power inverter + bridge + 10diodes + ignition coil + switch + sparkplug), I suceeded: I did attach to 220V, took 450v/100uF capacitator, the coil from Accel (high performance racing coil, the 140010, from ebay.com, told to be 50kV). The plasma effect was obvious. Fine :)
Then I look around to put it on some car.
My problem & question: within the ignition system, the distributor is giving pulses within '-' cable and not '+' (so '+' is always on and ground is pulsed). How should I adopt the gotoluc electronics, to apply the circuit to car? Should I use some MOSFET (?which?) to open '+' to diode's imput as soon as ground is on?............the answer is already hanging, please give me a link.
...................................................................
and the last question, has somebody tried using this ignition + HHO+ warm/hot WaterVapor?

hope somebody will help me :)
I am in Germany, Bremen - so if there are some "the guys" around, let me know :)

Hi diehostusxana,

I did exactly that until attention shifted to the 'piggyback' form of the circuit.  The Panacea website has everything I did which was a full blown version of the ignition system using two Mosfet Relays.

Here are the ciruits I built and tested plus put into my VW Bug.  I will put more up on it if you like:

http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/distrib2.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/distrib2.jpg)
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/module.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/module.jpg)
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/2hall.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/2hall.jpg)
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/compl.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/compl.jpg)
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/chargepulse.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/chargepulse.jpg)
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/install.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/install.jpg)
http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/clusters.jpg (http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/sparkplug/clusters.jpg)

When I changed to my Vexus circuit (piggyback version) I tested ratios and steam/mist.  If I can find the video of this running in my VW then I'll update my YouTube channel ... it is gmeast ... it shows my baseline replication too

Greg


OK I found the videos of this installation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwkaQFr_43A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwkaQFr_43A)

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zhGTTW0q_o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zhGTTW0q_o)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: diehostusxana on August 29, 2010, 11:19:03 PM
http://www.overunity.de/
Chet

Thanks, Chet,
I red about those two guys and ANTON Cell. Nice :) now doing some brainstroming...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: diehostusxana on August 29, 2010, 11:49:10 PM
I did exactly that until attention shifted to the 'piggyback' form of the circuit.  ...
Here are the ciruits I built and tested plus put into my VW Bug.

thank you gmeast for the nice suggestion :). I took look at the schematics. Seems you have continuous +120V switched to spark plugs throug those NTE517 diodes, right? I see, you have lot of txt in Panacea - I will get through those schematics&photos&videos first and post here, if have further questions.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gmeast on August 30, 2010, 04:38:23 PM
thank you gmeast for the nice suggestion :). I took look at the schematics. Seems you have continuous +120V switched to spark plugs throug those NTE517 diodes, right? I see, you have lot of txt in Panacea - I will get through those schematics&photos&videos first and post here, if have further questions.

Hi,

Yes (about)145VDC+ (rectified 120 AC) is a potential (stress) on the spark plug 'gap'.  When the discharge mosfet fires the 47uF cap at the coil, a pathway is formed for a large DC current (coming from the 470uF cap at the FWB) to burst forth in the spark plug gap ... creating the ionizing energy needed for the plasma(?) to form.  The HV diodes 'FORCE' the current to stay in the gap (unless you have leaky insulators).  This is required because there are lower potentials everywhere else for this high energy discharge to go ... other than the gap ... hence the HV Diodes.  Since we have a very, very high voltage conduit formed by the coil, the entire package of energy might just follow the rules for high voltage/frequency such as skin effect, etc. and never get to the plug gap ... or it might back up like a sewer (doubt that ... but it will go somewhere).

Good luck,

Greg
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: diehostusxana on August 31, 2010, 12:01:16 AM
sorry Gerg, I am back with questions ...

When the discharge mosfet fires the 47uF cap at the coil, a pathway is formed for a large DC current (coming from the 470uF cap at the FWB) to burst forth in the spark plug gap

so you have a continuous stress of 145V on spark plags
and when distributor don't fire SPDT, then the 47uF is being charged and when on switch, then the 47uF passes '-' to the coil.
Why do you need the 470uF at all then (to boost power of transforme for the spark moment?)?
Why are you using MOSFETs at all? - don't you get the same when connecting SPDT to the coil? (why you insist on using capacitor discharge?)

hmm, I feel strange, that you are giving continuous 145V to the diodes (I understood from gotoluc that the '+' should be pulsed together with coil). Don't You have current between coil's output (+145V) and coil's +input (+12V)?

sorry for so much questions... but I want to understand the stuff.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on September 03, 2010, 11:53:10 AM
Hi everyone,

it has been a while since I have shared new information.

I have been contacted by a YouTube user: theWIKWIPmaker of a new spark plug design that he has invented. He claims this would greatly help at solving the missing puzzle to make an engine work on water.

It looks promising to me :)

Here is his video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xnX71ydGpU&feature=email

Please share your thoughts and or replication attempts.

Thanks

Luc

why not Water Focus Fusion?

http://www.jp-petit.org/science/Z-machine/FOCUS/principe_fonctionnement_FOCUS.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAzoNcPsQjE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVif4hUAJ8c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byf5_e2W8Hs&NR=1

Warning X-ray emmission!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Hope on October 05, 2010, 06:13:50 AM
This link make all the other hho topics gain usage.
Safe easy HHO storage.   http://www.examiner.com/breakthrough-energy-in-national/ohmasa-gas-makes-water-as-fuel-more-feasible
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mos68x on October 08, 2010, 07:46:28 PM
Hello gentlemen, I think this is my first post even though I've seen this website and many threads here for a long time. I just recently registered so that I could finally post info and talk to other members.

I'm very interested in gmeast's exus(v) circuit but although there are posts showing v62 I don't see anything showing that osc circuit, unless I'm blind.

After spending the last week trying to read everything (I think I've forgotten most of it) I think I would rather try the higher voltage route since it seemed people were saying that it has better effects, unless I misread it. But I can't remember where people started to notice bad plug wear.

I had already decided a long time ago when I first stumbled across the Firstorn spark plugs(intentional misspelling) that I wanted to do them, but I didn't want to delve into the bad health associated with that alloy of Cu. I had thought about using Ni, so I was very glad to see that it had already been done. Although I've seen the gap for the Cu one is supposed to be .090, I haven't seen any info on what the gap is supposed to be for the Ni ones since mr east said that the gap was considerably larger. I had thought of SS too, but luc mentioned that it would wear fast so I hadn't thought much of it since I saw that post.

After seeing some Kiker replications and knowing how they made them I'll do a set of those too since I think that will help in the long run.

I have a circuit that a friend and I put together long before seeing this thread so I might post it up, only problem is that I can't remember most of the part numbers. We had found some special diodes for the project we were doing but like I said I can't remember the part numbers. After we made the schematic I made a PCB layout for it so I know what they looked like for the most part though, lol. Another big difference with our setup was the it was not directly coupled with the HV output of the MSD coil I have. I wasn't sure if I applied the LV current through it if it would last longer than I would want it to and other charging reasons, so the trigger was setup through an inductive coil "pickup" trigger that would sense the HV spike and open the gate for the LV current to go through.

I'll post a schematic of it sometime and see what you guys think of it, though it's probably worthless considering east's and luc's.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Michaelpier on December 11, 2010, 01:06:58 PM
Hello,
Iam also trying to replicate and i wondering what is the use of the inductor as the plan shows ?Is it necessary ?
Thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on December 11, 2010, 08:54:26 PM
That inductor is used to lighten the load on relay, ie, less peak-amp while charging.
The circuit is a 'mechanical-cdi', which requires relay.
Why don't you just use SCR instead?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Michaelpier on December 11, 2010, 11:07:07 PM
Thank you lon,thats why my relays (60Amps) always freeze from the small sparks ? I will try with the inductor to see if i can eliminate those.
Quote
Why don't you just use SCR instead?
Can you suggest one?

Have in mind that my supply is 230ac to 320dc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on December 12, 2010, 07:03:02 AM
No problem...  ;D
Could you give me the part number?
Or, better yet, you could check the datasheet of your SCR at http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/ (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/).

Or, maybe, if you could, just Google - (CDI Circuit).
http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm  (http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm)


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Michaelpier on December 12, 2010, 01:32:00 PM
The inductor works fine. Finally is working, especially if you spray some water :D

I think i will pass the scr for now.Thanks Lon.
Now i must think what to do with it   :P
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on December 12, 2010, 06:46:58 PM
Glad it works!  ;D
Let me know when you got the idea... Lol!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: diehostusxana on December 15, 2010, 10:18:12 PM
Hello guys out there :)
I'm back, have now motor (100EUR :) ), have now read the paper www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf
that doc is simply great, superideas. Supergood autors.
I have bought a simple 1-Zylinder 4-Takt motor.
And I want to make it run with plazma spark for testing.

Could anybody suggest, how do I convert "Magnetic Pickup" inition to Plasma, without external power supply?
.) Case1: may I with original coil impulse charge some condensator and later just discharge it through external coil of CDI ignition?
.) Case2: charge with external battery 1x Cap of 200V, 1uF and put in parallel to sparplug
.) Case3: ideas?
Here my picture:
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on December 16, 2010, 11:22:50 AM
I done this before, but, I failed... My engine ignition timing was too advanced...
Here's what I do:

I wrap my ignition coil, just like yours in the picture, with, 60 turns of copper windings (the number was actually randomly picked).
Then, I feed the output signal through an opto-isolator.

The opto-isolator then, fed to my darlington pair, which's connected to my ignition coil.

The ignition coil will fires as the crankshaft turns. But, in my experiment, the ignition was too advanced, as I try to pull-start the engine, the recoil-rope pulled me back! Very painful.
Even if the engine was cranked, it will violently backfiring at the intake port. That was TCI of course...

You could modify it to work as CDI as you go...

For charging the cap, simplest method I've been using is by utilizing 'DC fluorescent lamp ballast' as my charger. You could use ZVS for more efficient operation, of course...

Good luck!  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lots_of_lime on December 17, 2010, 02:25:06 AM
Hello, I am new here and find this site interesting.
I took a look at the schematics at the start of this thread.
I understand how the circuit works, but wonder what the purpose of the diodes are.

-the inverter provides 120vac from 12vdc battery.
-the rectifier+the capacitor turns the 120vac into raw dc, about 160vdc.
Just a note here, the capacitor should probably be dc and rated for at least 200vdc, and find one with a low ESR, thats would be effective series resistance. the lower the ESR the faster the cap can charge and discharge.
-then the relay is switched, applying the 160vdc to ignition coil, when the relay turns off that is when the high voltage is produced on the output of the ignition coil. it a huge spike caused from the induction coils being inductors and they dont like changes, lol.

since ignition coils output spikes anywhere between 20000volts and up, from 12vdc.
yours will be spicing upwards of about 266000volts plus, lol. cause you are using 160vdc.
BIG ASS SPARK.

I'm not 100% sure what the diodes are doing, Have been trying to figure this out.
and also why so many in series, that makes no sense, one diode should be sufficient for whatever you are trying to do. all a diode does is allow current to flow in one direction.
maybe they are meant to be put in parallel to handle more current.

k, maybe i can explain what the diodes are doing.

at the moment the relay is switched to the ignition coil.
the capacitor with 160vdc across it is now across the ignition coil and across the spark plug- the voltage drop of all the diodes.again one is enough.
so the spark plug has about 155 volts on it.

now the output of the ignition coil will not see a high 266000 volts until the moment the relay switches back to the rectifier to recharge.
this is just the nature of inductors, remember from above.

so maybe the initial voltage of 155vdc on the spark plug gets it excited, don't now.
seems insignificant compared to 266000 volts.

would really like to know what happens without the diodes.

let me know if you see this different?

thanks rob
I have a lot more input, but let's start here.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on December 17, 2010, 04:52:33 AM
Hi!  ;D
Well, you're almost right, but, need more spices...  ::)

-About the ESR, yup, you're perfectly right, but, also, lower ESR means longer lasting caps... I once use a cheap cap, very high ESR, last for about only 10 minutes of run time!

-160V DC charged cap dumped into the ignition coil? That's CDI, Capacitive Discharge Ignition. It doesn't make a 'huge-ass' sparks, but, aid the dv/dt rate. The spark arcs long, caused by higher voltage, but, usually, thinner, due to low amp... See? Voltage is nothing without current...

-The diode in the circuit used to channels the (relatively) 'high-amp side' to the 'high-voltage side'. Without the diodes, the hv-side would simply shorted.

-The diodes are in series because of the low reverse voltage rated by the diode itself. If memory serve me right, the diode used in the circuit have the reverse voltage rated less than 1kV. So, wiring them 10 in series would make them rated for 10kV. Enough for less than 1cm spark. (approx. 1kV for each 1mm spark gap.) Any less than this would make the diode act as an unintentional Zener diode... Lol!

-Actually, as you say, one diode could be sufficient enough, but, must be highly-rated. Like the microwave oven's diode. Rated at 20kV and 350mA. Usually, expensive too...

So, as conclusion, those darn diodes really needed. It being use as the high-current side channeler.
Remember, the CDI circuit made with mechanical relay are meant for demonstration purposes only! Not practical for any working engine...

For practical ones, I really suggest to use a 'real' CDI ciruit, which utilize SCR.

Cheers!  ;D

PS: For the 'diode-less' version, you could jump to the Capacitor70 replication thread, by SuperGod, I guess...


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: MrsNancy on January 23, 2011, 07:15:23 AM
 Looks interesting and from reading the first few pages it sounds promising. Has anyone got an engine to run using this circuit so far?

I'm second year electronics and have not seen a chain of diode like that. It that to increase the voltage capacity?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on January 23, 2011, 07:50:40 AM
Looks interesting and from reading the first few pages it sounds promising. Has anyone got an engine to run using this circuit so far?

I'm second year electronics and have not seen a chain of diode like that. It that to increase the voltage capacity?

I believe Dreamyear succeeded to to run his engine with the circuit. Look somewhere in Youtube.

About the diode, yup, it is to increase the forward-voltage of the diode.
Look in your diode's datasheet for rated forward-voltage.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Michaelpier on January 26, 2011, 11:47:11 PM
I will try to make the sparks without the relays.
iam thinking to use this instead of the scr  http://eu.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=g5ciJ0jwZaFPYkHVnREaNg==

Do you think is going to work?

Michael
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lon92 on January 27, 2011, 03:59:43 AM
I will try to make the sparks without the relays.
iam thinking to use this instead of the scr  http://eu.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=g5ciJ0jwZaFPYkHVnREaNg==

Do you think is going to work?

Michael

In my opinion, 1.2A is too small for CDI application.
Also, it's using opto-mechanism, I believe it would be very slow for this application.
Need someone more expert than me to explain this.

My 2 cents...  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on February 11, 2011, 07:31:45 AM
I followed this thread for the first couple of months, and I want to see the light and sound for myself.  Rather than reading the whole thread I decided to read the panaceabocof summary pdf, and there's a couple of points I wonder if someone could clarify:

1.  If I get the www.aquapulser.com RPG 4700 do I essentially have the same system ready to go?  I'm no expert with electronics, and I have a use for this unit on a scooter in the conventional way even if I can't get it to work for using water so it would be the preferred route for me.  The only drawback being that it goes inline from the coil, and I'd prefer to buy a generator which will likely have a magneto instead of battery/coil.  Rather than reinventing things, it would be good to have a stable debugged basic setup from which to do further experimentation.

2.  It is mentioned that capacitance doesn't matter, it's high voltage that matters, yet reproducing apparently took at least 47uf capacitor to get meaningful output.  Is the idea extensible, in that you can go higher and higher with voltage to get more effect whilst using the same energy? or are there practical limits?

3.  The panaceabocof document mentions Graneau using 3600 joules, which not meaning anything to me I googled a conversion which states that 3600j is 1 watt-hour.  I thought wow that's low, and referred to the RPG4700 page which says that it uses 30watts on top of whatever the conventional system is using.  This makes me wonder if they're dealing with the same thing.

I think I have an idea of how to get useful work out of this, but depending on the nature of the effect would mean some very different design approaches.  The pressure test showing 75psi in water that was preloaded at 36psi suggests that the expansion is around double, which isn't anything like conventional ICE gas expansion, and that when tested in air didn't register.  I wonder whether it still wouldn't register if the air was already compressed at 10:1 or whatever a stock engine happened to be, but it would like it would be low and at the same time the camino from SR1 appears to have similar power to gasoline.  Seeing other references to using the effect for forming metal plates and suggesting potential pressures of 20,000-40,000 Atm's makes me wonder if all these things are the same or not.  The outputs vary from mundane to magical.  I'd hate to play with this and dismiss it because I'd misunderstood a key concept.

Last time (2008) when I made some suggestions of things to try to get a handle on what the phenomenon was I got labelled as an imposter (I said things like try putting a balloon on the end and see if it expands and collapses).  As the only way I'm going to get the answers I seek is to actually do it, I'm just looking to make sure I have all the components that have been proven so that I can focus my time on the areas that still have question marks.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: JuBragg on March 20, 2011, 08:15:19 AM
I have read about ten hours of this thread including much of the earliest pages with diagrams. I see the goal of producing a plasma and following up with a heavier amperage to more completely burn water vapor in the cylinder.

Has anyone considered that flame is a plasma so if we run on conventional fuel and conventional timing, then introduce the high amp spark in a plasma environment at 35° or so after top dead centre it should not need high voltage to bridge the gap.?

Admittedly this would not be running solely on water but it would be far simpler to experiment on existing engines, and various ways of water introduction could be tried.

Many years ago I ran an old (1918?) Amanco hit and miss governed stationary engine that ran first on gasoline to start with, switched over to Kerosene when warmed up, and then had a water regulator that allowed  water to be introduced via a needle valve that increased the power and let the engine run cooler, without of course any follow up spark.

When "Firestorm" plug details became available, I reformed the points of conventional plugs to form a dome on the central electrode and a cup on the side electrode that covered the dome, and even though the cup was only about twice the diameter of the electrode material the resulting spark was quite different to a normal one.  The spark was reddish, and covered the whole area under the dome.

Tests on a four stroke push lawnmower seemed to show increased power, letting me cut tussock grass clumps that stalled the mower before. Unfortunately it ripped the center out of the cutting disk after an hour or two of that ! Then made a set of plugs for my 1992 1800 FWD Subaru and it allowed me to come up a 9 hairpin mountain road on my usual town route in one higher gear, third.

To convert the plugs you need a high speed hobby drill, a set of diamond bits, a hardened steel Phillips metal screw to make the dome former which is hollowed with a diamond bit  then put in a drill and pressed and moved around on the central electrode to 'spin' and form the dome. A slight depression on an anvil metal piece and a domed end punch and a few taps with a hammer forms the bent out side electrode into a cup, tricky balancing act as you have to hold the punch and plug in the same hand. Then bend the electrode back centrally over the center electrode, gap with wire the right diameter bent to go under the cup as a flat gapper will not work.

Not very scientific I know , but if it helps those with the capabilities of making the ignition set up get to use it on a vehicle and show substantial fuel saving it will be one step along the way.

I'm working on an old (1928) 4HP stationary engine with 18" heavy flywheels for a generator, if I can get it going on mainly water it should rival grid power now at 22 to 28 cents a KWH !
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: diehostusxana on March 23, 2011, 11:47:51 PM
Hello, dear gentlemens,
here some update from my side:
.) the schematics - easy to build, it sparks every 2 seconds, when plugged in
.) some photos (more here: https://picasaweb.google.com/101524908390124389939/PlasmaSpark?feat=directlink )

things to note:
.) to avoid circuit switching with hand, I use gas discharge tube. I understand, it takes some energy away, ok, but I feel it to be comfot-giving option
.) the small copper wire is swinging after the hit with HV flow (? is there some classical physics explanation)
.) the spark is jumping also to reverse-oriented diode (? strange, right, but showcases Aaron's correct, reference: panacea-bocaf water spark plug)
.) I don't get a reason of that side-jump of the bight light (see the picture)


That's it about input.
Now about wished output.
0) I previously posted my enging photo, asking for some comments on how to change it to plasma. If there are some practical tips, I would appreciate.
1) can please somebody, who has checked, comment on pulstar.com plugs? Are they giving the FireStorm equal effect or not?
2) does somebody have idea why the pulstar.com has that bright spark?
3) If I would say, the eather, which binds with electrons, is like "uncompressible gas" and current is like "a little bit compressible gas", and therefore, in gotoluc circuit eather is the first who excapes to the spark gap and gives that bright light. Will I be right? (reference book: "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity").
4) About aquapulser.com - is it generating the big spark with the same amount of energy or it consuming more than classic spark-plug?

Best regards,
myself
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Plasmagorilla on May 09, 2011, 05:40:27 AM
Hey Guys

Check the plasma ignition system I have built.
http://www.youtube.com/awatch?v=peO1afaBX5E

I have put it  up on ebay for any one interested who wishes to purchase a kit. I am sure many you have seen the earlier posts by aquapulser.com, ecoignition.com etc  Its way more cheaper than the over priced plasma ignition modules sold there which I believe is a total rip off. $450 for the smallest twin cylinder engine you gotta be kidding  :o  :o  :o

So I decided to build my own plasma kit much more reasonably priced module with more features for researchers and those running hho systems  and those just wishing to save some gas.

I have listed the module on ebay...search for gorilla plasma ignition and you should see it. Here is the link also.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GORILLA-PLASMA-IGNITION-HHO-FUEL-SAVER-RACING-MPG-GAIN-/260781025211?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb7c2a7bb#ht_2846wt_1139

If you have a genuine research project that requires this system, let me know I would be more than happy to give members of this forum a discount. Send me a PM or send me a message through ebay or youtube.

thanks guys.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 09, 2011, 04:04:48 PM
Hey Guys

Check the plasma ignition system I have built.
http://www.youtube.com/awatch?v=peO1afaBX5E

I have put it  up on ebay for any one interested who wishes to purchase a kit. I am sure many you have seen the earlier posts by aquapulser.com, ecoignition.com etc  Its way more cheaper than the over priced plasma ignition modules sold there which I believe is a total rip off. $450 for the smallest twin cylinder engine you gotta be kidding  :o  :o  :o

So I decided to build my own plasma kit much more reasonably priced module with more features for researchers and those running hho systems  and those just wishing to save some gas.

I have listed the module on ebay...search for gorilla plasma ignition and you should see it. Here is the link also.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GORILLA-PLASMA-IGNITION-HHO-FUEL-SAVER-RACING-MPG-GAIN-/260781025211?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb7c2a7bb#ht_2846wt_1139

If you have a genuine research project that requires this system, let me know I would be more than happy to give members of this forum a discount. Send me a PM or send me a message through ebay or youtube.

thanks guys.

Hello Plasmagorilla,

thank you for bringing our attention to your new plug and play product design.

I wish you all the best with your business.

Please keep us updated with user results if you can.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sergenet on May 10, 2011, 12:21:38 AM
good luck plasmagorilla with the beautifully designed plasma kit. I wonder how it would work when coupled with an HHO system. Has anybody tried to see how much more gas savings can be accomplished by combining the two?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Plasmagorilla on May 12, 2011, 12:52:15 AM
good luck plasmagorilla with the beautifully designed plasma kit. I wonder how it would work when coupled with an HHO system. Has anybody tried to see how much more gas savings can be accomplished by combining the two?

I personally have not tested this with an HHO system however just plain plasma ignition increases mileage from 22mpg to 30mpg. That is quite significant...but yes I would like to partner with any professional HHO system sellers or those who have a decent working system already installed to try this out.

Thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on May 12, 2011, 03:01:43 AM
I personally have not tested this with an HHO system however just plain plasma ignition increases mileage from 22mpg to 30mpg. That is quite significant...but yes I would like to partner with any professional HHO system sellers or those who have a decent working system already installed to try this out.

Thanks

Plasmagorilla, have you tested with a better spark plug like Torque Spark Plug, they are doing better then a standard crappy plug http://www.extremespark.com/videos.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on May 12, 2011, 05:25:38 AM
I personally have not tested this with an HHO system however just plain plasma ignition increases mileage from 22mpg to 30mpg. That is quite significant...but yes I would like to partner with any professional HHO system sellers or those who have a decent working system already installed to try this out.

Thanks

Do a search on ebay "HHO Dry Cell" and contact a few that you like but that are making their own HHO cells. Maybe one of them would want a partnership. You will find all kinds of interesting guys making their own Dry Cells on eBay.

That's what I would do if I was already selling my product on eBay.

Let us know how it works out

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cky_cleaner on June 17, 2011, 02:42:59 PM
I personally have not tested this with an HHO system however just plain plasma ignition increases mileage from 22mpg to 30mpg. That is quite significant...but yes I would like to partner with any professional HHO system sellers or those who have a decent working system already installed to try this out.

Thanks
I can test it on my car with HHO installed  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXsKfGVHEY

sorry for my english ;-)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: guruji on August 06, 2011, 01:01:13 PM
I can test it on my car with HHO installed  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXsKfGVHEY

sorry for my english ;-)

You've tried to rev the engine more than idle?
Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: cky_cleaner on April 26, 2012, 07:29:49 PM
You've tried to rev the engine more than idle?
Thanks for sharing
yes , of cource! I drive 1 year with HHO.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DaS Energy on December 03, 2012, 04:52:42 AM
Hello all,
From that I see in the video the heat of the electric arc occuring at the sparkplug causes the water to split into hydrogen and oxygen which then burns.
There is no question a lighting bolt (ie arc across the plug points) will split the water and burn the seperated gasses. However that tiny mist to the spark plug would need be greater in volume if greater forces are to be acheived.
Water powered engines work on the same principal of splitting water.  I would much llike to see how much wattage is required to do the split, and what pressures are obtained from the burning gases, so they can be calculated to KW or Horsepower.
Cheers Peter
 
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tagor on December 03, 2012, 07:59:38 AM
 
Hello all,
From that I see in the video the heat of the electric arc occuring at the sparkplug causes the water to split into hydrogen and oxygen which then burns.
There is no question a lighting bolt (ie arc across the plug points) will split the water and burn the seperated gasses. However that tiny mist to the spark plug would need be greater in volume if greater forces are to be acheived.
Water powered engines work on the same principal of splitting water.  I would much llike to see how much wattage is required to do the split, and what pressures are obtained from the burning gases, so they can be calculated to KW or Horsepower.
Cheers Peter

this is very HV  and 500HP
 
look at this
http://www.overunity.com/11814/luxury-hydrogen-fuel-cell-boat-draws-electricity-from-sea-water/msg308596/#msg308596 (http://www.overunity.com/11814/luxury-hydrogen-fuel-cell-boat-draws-electricity-from-sea-water/msg308596/#msg308596)
 
Quote
- he was using "dry cells"
 - he could produce an huge quantity of HHO (you bet he should).
 - he generated 50.000 volts but that the use of this voltage was "complicated"
 - he got his idea partly from the Internet
 - he was OK to receive me and to "take me for a ride" but that I would not
   be able to see the engine (even from a long way off...).

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DaS Energy on December 03, 2012, 08:31:55 AM
Hello Tagor, Ive been through all the posts and videos but cant get more information than uses X voltage which means nothing. Watts be the thing.  Real easy to use sea water and CO2 to make electricity. Royal Navy in the 18th Centuary trialed Ammonia, we replaced the Ammonia with CO2.
If you can score the wattage from his highly complicated thing. I shall post the generator, using no more than sea water and CO2.
Cheers Peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tagor on December 03, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
Hello Tagor, Ive been through all the posts and videos but cant get more information than uses X voltage which means nothing. Watts be the thing.  Real easy to use sea water and CO2 to make electricity. Royal Navy in the 18th Centuary trialed Ammonia, we replaced the Ammonia with CO2.
If you can score the wattage from his highly complicated thing. I shall post the generator, using no more than sea water and CO2.
Cheers Peter

 
yes this very secret until now
 
look at PESN , we have to wait until january or february to get more information
 
 PS :
 
looking at the batery will be a good thing , but we can not !!
 
or buying a boat = 300 000 euros
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DaS Energy on December 03, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
Hello tagor,
Thanks for the info. 
Any child can take a dry cell battery and spilt oxygen and hydrogen out of water. All you need is two electrodes.  Doing it with sunlight alone was mastered yeasr ago by CSIRO Australia.  I thought by the carry on he was making, he had mastered how to get the electricity for free.  Which is what I am banging on about.
Cheers Peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tagor on December 03, 2012, 11:41:48 AM
Hello tagor,
Thanks for the info. 
Any child can take a dry cell battery and spilt oxygen and hydrogen out of water. All you need is two electrodes.  Doing it with sunlight alone was mastered yeasr ago by CSIRO Australia.  I thought by the carry on he was making, he had mastered how to get the electricity for free.  Which is what I am banging on about.
Cheers Peter

yes , but can you , easely , running a "more than 800 CV" motor ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DaS Energy on December 03, 2012, 11:54:58 AM
Easy as falling off a log backwards. Bigger the engine, more gas.  Process of gathering dont change.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tagor on December 03, 2012, 12:17:02 PM
Easy as falling off a log backwards. Bigger the engine, more gas.  Process of gathering dont change.

can you sell the divice for a 400HP motor and less than 27000 euros ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DaS Energy on December 03, 2012, 12:42:34 PM
 
Hello Tagor,
Dont know what a euro is!     Australian!
No we cant sell you one, but can give you one. Its listed Open Technology
We dont work to Horsepower we work to capacity, that is to say the air intake per second.
There is whats called a snuff point, that is where combustion chokes out it occuring.
 
Re Boat. I am interested to know once the batteries have no charge, does the boat stop ?
Looks to me he's fracturing water and to do that his alternator is not enough so he needs back up.
Personaly I think he's full of bullshit.  One thing to hide the fracanator, entirely different to hide the engine!
Cheers Peter
 
 
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tagor on December 03, 2012, 04:26:14 PM

Hello Tagor,
Dont know what a euro is!     Australian!
No we cant sell you one, but can give you one. Its listed Open Technology
We dont work to Horsepower we work to capacity, that is to say the air intake per second.
There is whats called a snuff point, that is where combustion chokes out it occuring.
 
Re Boat. I am interested to know once the batteries have no charge, does the boat stop ?
Looks to me he's fracturing water and to do that his alternator is not enough so he needs back up.
Personaly I think he's full of bullshit.  One thing to hide the fracanator, entirely different to hide the engine!
Cheers Peter

LUXURY sell the boat mig675 , autonomus ( no big batteries )
but until now nobody have looked inside the boat ...
and i have no money to buy this boat ...
so we have to wait 2013
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DaS Energy on December 03, 2012, 04:42:21 PM
Thanks, Though about it further myself, two big fan ports on fuel cell. Blowing heat! Demineralisation does occur when water boils. But not using such, just a stage passed through, tricky vendor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tagor on December 03, 2012, 05:17:24 PM

Personaly I think he's full of bullshit. 

personaly i think that a bullshit of 300Keuros ( so 400K$US ) is a very big risk
for this business man !!
but i have no money to test it