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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1409155 times)

qiman

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Re: 7 degree temp drop
« Reply #705 on: July 10, 2008, 08:53:49 AM »
Temp. drop in an ICE would need to be determined.  Certainly could be cooler due to lack of explosive heat, but friction still will create heat along the cylinder walls, and any bearing surface.  So, IMO, no cold running ICE.  ;D

Livingwaters08

Yes, friction would still play a part to generate heat even if no explosive heat. I would use vacclaisocryptene additive to reduce friction to the lowest possible. It was developed for the oil/gas refinery industry by the oil/gas refinery industry to prevent maintenance on their own equipment. If anyone knows what the best would be, it is them. And YES, I am a dealer. www.vacclaisocryptene.com because I believe in it from my own results.

qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #706 on: July 10, 2008, 08:57:09 AM »
@quiman
Congratulations, You are one of very few people to get this far :)
It's interesting that this effect(electrostatic cooling) is almost completely absent in the scientific literature but has been around for a very long time. The most noteable person to utilize this effect was Victor Schauberger some 80 years ago, many people equate Schauberger with water and the vortex but this was only a small part of his work. Victor stated he could produce 2 million volts potential from a single drop of water using capilliary tubes and a small suction source! and the resultant "cold expansion" could produce a large temperature drop. In the right context this cold expansion could also produce a perfect vacuum to power his devices . In our world we equate heat with expansion and cold with contraction but this seems to be a bit of an illusion as heat and cold are not "something" they are a condition of "something". If only heat expands and only cold contracts then why is our cold upper atmosphere at a low pressure? It should be very dense if it has supposedly contracted. We could also say radiating energy is expansive relative to the source and contractive relative to its target. In any case if heat is not produced I think it is safe to assume the forces involved are electrostatic in nature, as everything is.

You're exactly right. Ice cubes are cold and expand as they get colder. Water is the most dense at 4C, etc... and other anomalous phenomena attributed to water. I'm aware of electrostatic cooling but there may be something else at play. I'll "expand" on that later. LOL

qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #707 on: July 10, 2008, 09:00:54 AM »
@quiman & All

Interesting indeed as I have worked with electrostatic cooling for some 5 years now, it is still a thrill to see how many different ways it can be invoked.

For a starter for those that are not familiar with the effect you could start at http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm and a google in the subject will bring up many interesting papers, it seems welding is familiar with the effect. I am also aware that NASA has and is doing research in this area.

Now a simple question, the cooling in the video appears to go down at a near constant rate, but once the arc is stopped it at once returns to the 77' mark, I'm not understanding why we wuld not see a ramp back up to the 77', if surfaces are cooled how do they at once obtain instant ambient temperature?

Thanks, forever interesting.....

Good question. The only thing that can be obtained from this test is that the before and after temp, regardless of any possible goofy phenomena with the pulsing and thermometer is that there is no net gain in temp no matter how long I run it. That vid was only a few short seconds but even running it longer...and I stop it and measure temp, there is no gain. Others have commented on how the plug feels cool as well and didn't get hot. It is most interesting. :)

qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #708 on: July 10, 2008, 09:03:54 AM »
@qiman
There are things happening in the spark which we don't fully understand. I was thinking, maybe the ir light from the ir temperature meter is being absorbed or manipulated or whatever, therefore it isn't showing the correct temperature. Maybe a low-tech temp-meter should be used, just to be sure it is really dropping.
Just a thought. 8)

(I see tinu asked the same)

Hi, in my own forum, I think I suggested the same. Anyone could get a regular mercury thermometer for taking temperatures. Tape the bulb tightly to the threads or J electrode of the plug, super glue whatever and just let the thing run, then see if the temp increases. That would be a great analog test that rules out any possibility of interference. Doesn't change the fact that the temp with the IR digital thermometer shows before and after (without spark running) temp is the same and doesn't increase.

whopper1967

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #709 on: July 10, 2008, 09:15:27 AM »
Hello all,let me ask you this.In capacitors circuit and I am pretty sure xboxs,the ignition coil must generate +ve hv for them to work,so,if like someone said earlier,most modern ignitions generate negative,is there any way to change that to positive?thanks all.

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #710 on: July 10, 2008, 10:35:07 AM »
I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Ben - maybe you should get prepared to eat that nail ...

As I understand it - what is required (after the initial HV low current spark) is a lower voltage high current discharge.  We don't actually know what voltage is needed for this secondary discharge - people are blowing up inverters because inverters are available off the shelf - but we haven't proved we need the voltage to be that high.  Some, including myself, have speculated about connected the 12V directly to the spark plug for the high current discharge.  (Remember - Graneau have given good science that it is Amps that blows the water apart - so at this stage in the process, unnessary voltage multiplication at the expense of current is counter-productive).

So very likely, a rudimentary coil of few turns is exactly what we need ... perhaps he is using multiple discharges at lower and lower volts (with higher and higher current) ...

Don't sneeze at this simple coil arrangement.  In this thread we have no idea who the real information or the real disinformation is coming from.  These coils are so easy a child could build - so try them!

Electrostatic cooling ... wow.  I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...

wavez

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #711 on: July 10, 2008, 10:41:46 AM »
My experiments are going pretty good here. I am using the updated circuit that Luc has posted.
(this one: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5024.0;attach=24621;image)

Thanks for posting this simple, easy to understand diagram Luc.

These are the spark plugs I am using:
http://www.amazon.com/E3-Spark-Plugs-Engine-Garden/dp/B000BPOI8O

My multi-meter showed that they have little to no resistance, so there is no need to modify these. For people who are looking to buy plugs, my advice is this: Use either lawn mower or racing plugs. Neither one should have resistance, but check for resistance and exchange the plug until you have one that has no resistance. Luc, if you could mention this in the first post it might save some people some $ on plugs :). Also, try to find plugs that have more surface area like a firestorm plug. The E3 plug has a little C shape at the end of its cathode, so maybe this helps...

Today I increased the gap size and that made a big difference. I think the plug was originally around 10 thousandths, but once I moved it up to 80, then we were really seeing some nice sparks. 80 thousandths is a BIG gap size for a plug. My plug is clearly not designed with that kind of spacing in mind.

I've been thinking about how a water explosion could be possible... I don't know if we want to delve into much theory in this thread or not. I think it should be pointed out though, that gasoline (or hydrogen) explodes because of a chain reaction. I don't see how this could happen with water, but maybe the pressure from the piston makes the explosion possible. I assume all this and more has been discussed in the s1r replication group which I have not been a part of :(. Maybe the process is like the japanese van that jymboche linked to. The area around the plug would turn to plasma and explode, while the rest expands from the heat.

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #712 on: July 10, 2008, 11:13:08 AM »
Ben - maybe you should get prepared to eat that nail ...

As I understand it - what is required (after the initial HV low current spark) is a lower voltage high current discharge.  We don't actually know what voltage is needed for this secondary discharge - people are blowing up inverters because inverters are available off the shelf - but we haven't proved we need the voltage to be that high.  Some, including myself, have speculated about connected the 12V directly to the spark plug for the high current discharge.  (Remember - Graneau have given good science that it is Amps that blows the water apart - so at this stage in the process, unnessary voltage multiplication at the expense of current is counter-productive).

So very likely, a rudimentary coil of few turns is exactly what we need ... perhaps he is using multiple discharges at lower and lower volts (with higher and higher current) ...

Don't sneeze at this simple coil arrangement.  In this thread we have no idea who the real information or the real disinformation is coming from.  These coils are so easy a child could build - so try them!

Electrostatic cooling ... wow.  I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...

Hi greendoor,

A 12V battery is lower voltage but why do you assume it can provide a higher current than a capacitor? If you think that this the case then you are mistaken. Although only for a very short period, a capacitor can easily discharge energy with currents in the thousands of amps. A battery's only advantage here is that it can deliver a high current for a long period of time. But this is of no advantage in this process and has quite the opposite effect of wasting energy. In fact, to do what you are suggesting, simply take any of the previous inverter circuits described in this thread and replace the inverter and capacitor with 2 or 3 12 volts batteries in series. Now reduce the spark plug gap  as small as possible without touching. The circuit will now work and the batteries' current will flow through the arc but it will continue to arc continuously like an arc welder until the batteries' voltage drops. The spark plug gap ends will glow red and if you spray water on this arc there will be no explosion. So energy will be wasted in such a process and you will get very little, if any, water to explode.

Regards,

Ossie

qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #713 on: July 10, 2008, 11:40:18 AM »
I would like to point out one simple fact:

I can make this effect with a variac or inverter DISCONNECTED/ISOLATED (both terminals isolated) from the capacitor so this rules out 100% for a fact that I am getting any extra high current surge from the power supply.

Some want to believe it can come from a capacitor...(once it is discharged).

What S1R shows with some inverter touching the plug off and on through a relay and then ignition coil off/on...whatever he is showing is NOT the same method as Luc has found. So some are automatically thinking that there is some surge from the power supply to make this spark based on Luc's circuit because of some crossed idea that it is supposed to be the same thing?

Also, has anyone bothered to scope the function of the diode?

I see something that seems to almost be deliberately IGNORED here. My power supply is 100% separated from the capacitor on BOTH terminals when the capacitor is discharged into the spark plug. That means 100% as an undeniable FACT, there is no current surge from my variac or inverter going to the coil when the HV pulse leaves the ignition coil.

So that leaves the capacitor as the only thing connected to the circuit as far as input. Once the capacitor is discharged, there isn't enough to provide any current surge! With a 3uf capacitor, that is 0.0384 joules of work possible (with no losses) if it is charged to 160volts. That is LESS THAN 0.04 watt seconds worth of energy...and if using a 3uf cap, once it is discharged and claiming that there is some current surge from the cap..again AFTER it is discharged will have some current surge that assists this spark...even with a 47uf cap at 160v, that is 0.6 watt seconds or 0.6 joules...and AFTER discharge there is enough for some mysterious current surge??? LOL Well, again...is this DISINFORMATION...there might be enough energy left in the cap AFTER discharge to may raise 1 hair on a flea's leg, but to assist in some robust spark on a plug like we're witnessing???

1. Why do I get the effect without any power supply connected to my cap?
2. AFTER the cap is discharged, why do I get the effect still and do you honestly think there is enough in the cap to give some current surge to cause this effect?
3. HOW DOES A DIODE WORK?
4. Think about VOLTAGE POTENTIAL..........where there is any kind of voltage...that potential is available EVERYWHERE instantaneously wherever it it is in contact with some kind of conductivity as long as it is not blocked. When the arc is happening, the HV potential is available at the exit of the HV diode...what does that tell you?

mr.uu

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #714 on: July 10, 2008, 11:44:20 AM »
Hello all!

Only reading this forum for years, finally my first writing!  :o

Probably a bit offtopic, so sorry for that first...but:
Did we finally (re-)discover the "holy grail" of electronics here?
Powering a single "device" with two powersources. From one drawn high voltage, low current- from the other low voltage, high current.
Here joining them together just before the airgap (sparkplug).

What if you join them together just before a coil? Or an ordinary light-bulb?
How would then the effective power accumulate (From voltage x current (U*I) as Ohm?s Law says)?
If we draw from the hv-source 10 watts (100volts*0.1amps), and also 10 watts from the lv-source (0.1volts*100amps), would the effective combined power on the lightbulb be 20 watts or 10000watts?
Could this somebody try to verify? With an ordinary lightbulb?
Is there even a possibility to "create" such small voltage x huge amperage powersource?

Or is this all garbage? If so, then sorry for that...

Another thing regarding this circuit:

I am certain, that a circuit utilising resonance (between coil and capacitor) would undoubtly need less amount of energy than not in resonance.
Anybody considered that yet? Is it even possible to utilize in this circuit?
Of course this would mean fixed RPM within an ICE, but it maybe a possility in an ICE/generator setup with fixed RPM...


All the best to all of you guys, especially the few who do actually build and test things!





 


greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #715 on: July 10, 2008, 11:49:05 AM »
Thanks Ossie ... I was just speculating, because I know a battery can deliver huge peak current (e.g. starter motor).  A lead-acid battery is kinda like a large capacitor ... The problem you describe would seem to be solvable with switching??  I'm just thinking that any inverter or coil arrangement for voltage multiplication (or division??) might be a waste of power, if the Ampere force is the operating force.

Anyhoo - a random quote I just pulled from googling around ... I find it very enlightening:

Quote
To understand the effect you have to first realize that heat is space 'wiggling' in place. Then you also have to realize that an electric discharge is basically space realigning itself. So, a violent "moving" of space that allows the heat to instantly redistribute. Just like thunderbolts cool down...

Is he right?  I suspect yes ...

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #716 on: July 10, 2008, 11:57:47 AM »
I would like to point out one simple fact:

I can make this effect with a variac or inverter DISCONNECTED/ISOLATED (both terminals isolated) from the capacitor so this rules out 100% for a fact that I am getting any extra high current surge from the power supply.

Some want to believe it can come from a capacitor...(once it is discharged).

What S1R shows with some inverter touching the plug off and on through a relay and then ignition coil off/on...whatever he is showing is NOT the same method as Luc has found. So some are automatically thinking that there is some surge from the power supply to make this spark based on Luc's circuit because of some crossed idea that it is supposed to be the same thing?

Also, has anyone bothered to scope the function of the diode?

I see something that seems to almost be deliberately IGNORED here. My power supply is 100% separated from the capacitor on BOTH terminals when the capacitor is discharged into the spark plug. That means 100% as an undeniable FACT, there is no current surge from my variac or inverter going to the coil when the HV pulse leaves the ignition coil.

So that leaves the capacitor as the only thing connected to the circuit as far as input. Once the capacitor is discharged, there isn't enough to provide any current surge! With a 3uf capacitor, that is 0.0384 joules of work possible (with no losses) if it is charged to 160volts. That is LESS THAN 0.04 watt seconds worth of energy...and if using a 3uf cap, once it is discharged and claiming that there is some current surge from the cap..again AFTER it is discharged will have some current surge that assists this spark...even with a 47uf cap at 160v, that is 0.6 watt seconds or 0.6 joules...and AFTER discharge there is enough for some mysterious current surge??? LOL Well, again...is this DISINFORMATION...there might be enough energy left in the cap AFTER discharge to may raise 1 hair on a flea's leg, but to assist in some robust spark on a plug like we're witnessing???

1. Why do I get the effect without any power supply connected to my cap?
2. AFTER the cap is discharged, why do I get the effect still and do you honestly think there is enough in the cap to give some current surge to cause this effect?
3. HOW DOES A DIODE WORK?
4. Think about VOLTAGE POTENTIAL..........where there is any kind of voltage...that potential is available EVERYWHERE instantaneously wherever it it is in contact with some kind of conductivity as long as it is not blocked. When the arc is happening, the HV potential is available at the exit of the HV diode...what does that tell you?
Qiman - seriously thank you.  I have been quoting the Graneau paper as being the source that states (with apparant authority) that it is the Ampere force that is involved.  Maybe Graneau contains disinformation?  I don't anyone at this stage - and the fact this paper is freely available makes it suspect (even though it seems to be waving abundant free energy under our noses).

I am looking into the Electrostatic Cooling effect - and so far Voltage seems to be the key effect, not Amps so much.  So maybe I am the blind trying to lead the blind (almost certainly).
My apologies.  The one thing I am certain of, and have stated many times, is that we need to find both the minimum voltage required, and the minimum current required - in order to reduce total Power input, to maximise total Power available. 

I hope to build some devices very soon and report findings.

qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #717 on: July 10, 2008, 12:38:20 PM »
Greendoor,

The input of the diode is touching the low voltage +. The output of the diode is touching the HV+. Anytime the voltage on the output side of a diode is HIGHER than the input, the DIODE REMAINS CLOSED.

When is there less voltage potential on the diode's output than the input side? When does the voltage drop below the input side? When the cap is discharged, think about how how much is left and what that diode is.

When does the other side of the diode drop BELOW the input side of the diode in order to open that diode?

Until then....the diode remains closed.


qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #718 on: July 10, 2008, 12:43:22 PM »
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #719 on: July 10, 2008, 01:06:31 PM »
Hello all!

Only reading this forum for years, finally my first writing!  :o

Probably a bit offtopic, so sorry for that first...but:
Did we finally (re-)discover the "holy grail" of electronics here?
Powering a single "device" with two powersources. From one drawn high voltage, low current- from the other low voltage, high current.
Here joining them together just before the airgap (sparkplug).

What if you join them together just before a coil? Or an ordinary light-bulb?
How would then the effective power accumulate (From voltage x current (U*I) as Ohm?s Law says)?
If we draw from the hv-source 10 watts (100volts*0.1amps), and also 10 watts from the lv-source (0.1volts*100amps), would the effective combined power on the lightbulb be 20 watts or 10000watts?
Could this somebody try to verify? With an ordinary lightbulb?
Is there even a possibility to "create" such small voltage x huge amperage powersource?

Or is this all garbage? If so, then sorry for that...

Another thing regarding this circuit:

I am certain, that a circuit utilising resonance (between coil and capacitor) would undoubtly need less amount of energy than not in resonance.
Anybody considered that yet? Is it even possible to utilize in this circuit?
Of course this would mean fixed RPM within an ICE, but it maybe a possility in an ICE/generator setup with fixed RPM...


All the best to all of you guys, especially the few who do actually build and test things!


I'm not sure what you've been reading here - but your conclusions are nothing like what i've learned here ...

As far as i'm concerned, there is no secret power in the spark.  Most people here seem to be using the brute force approach - maxium volts, maximum amps - large power input, for hopefully enough power output to drive a piston down a cylinder ...

The power i'm interested in is in the water.  And it would appear to be in the molecular bonds holding water together in a liquid state.  By atomising the water with a spark - the water suddenly has less molecular bond energy - and because energy is neither created nor destroyed - the energy that was previously holding the molecules together is transformed into violent kinetic energy.  And apparantly the temperature drops too - which I don't understand yet.  Heat is kinetic energy - but obviously there are different forms of kinetic energy.  For example - it's possible to freeze something (reducing heat energy) and accelerate it (increasing kinetic energy) at the same time - so different effects are obviously at work here. 

The subject of electrostatic cooling seems to be linked here.  If objects can be suddenly cooled with the application of high voltage with minimal current - it would appear that massive overunity heat engines should be possible.  I'm thinking this water arc effect is ultimately a heat engine.  But I could be barking mad.

I'm just looking for the best strategy to build a device to test these wild theories ...