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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1405390 times)

bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #420 on: July 04, 2008, 02:48:48 PM »
Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I understand that many may be eager to attempt to start building these circuits to test them but I must stress that unless you understand how they operate, as well as have some experience in building and testing electronic circuits, it is likely to be an expensive and possibly also dangerous excercise for you. So please understand what you are building and how it works before you proceed as there are many traps for the inexperienced.

One these traps that is most likely the cause of people blowing up their all solid state inverters is that the HV pulse from an ignition coil can be either positive or negative. In all of my circuits, the ignition coil pulse is always positive. But in practise, it can be either.

To accommodate this you will need to make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections. You must then test the polarity of you ignition coil's output pulse by using a long string of LV diodes or some HV microwave oven diodes, preferable 3 or four in series, to prove if the HV pulse coming out of your ignition coil is negative or positive. Once you have proved this, then when you connect the output of the diode string from you inverter circuit, you will connect it to the spark plug positive if your ignition coil pulse is positive or to the spark plug ground, if your ignition coil pulse is negative.

Regards,

Ossie



Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

Quote
Hi bumfuzzled, which circuit are you using?

At everyone, I have posted this before but I will say it again since some don't read all my posts. Look at the first page of this topic again. I have updated it and my circuit. You need to re-read page one since there are many text changes which can help you.

Luc

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

k4zep

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #421 on: July 04, 2008, 02:52:23 PM »
All you have to do is remove the key from the flywheel then you can set the timing wherever you want. Just be sure to tighten the flywheel back down real good. Yes there's some guess work but you can get it close enough. This is what the go kart racers do to them.

I have an old Honda 550 4 cylinder sitting in the shed that would be easy as far as getting the timing right but 4 cylinders would be much harder to get running than one cylinder so I'll stick with the little B&S for now.


Right on.

Please realize this is NOT an Carb. vaporizer ignition device.  What a difference an on demand direct distilled water mist injection system on the plug, to the head would make!!!!!  A idealized injector system would be slightly different than a normal fuel oriented injected mist to vapor system in that it would be oriented towards the plug and not as direct into the combustion chamber only.   My kingdom for a workspace and a machine shop!  If folks on this list are not excited now, just roll over and watch the Simpson's and forget about it! 

Ben

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #422 on: July 04, 2008, 02:55:18 PM »
Thanks Ossie, but what I was thinking of was purely about proving the new circuit on the bench (my build quality) - with this in mind is it okay to drive it with the srobe, in the way I had mentioned, before considering attaching it to an ICE?

Hi stu,

Only if you intend your ICE to run at 60 rpm at most for a single cylinder 2 stroke or 120 rpm for a single cylinder 4 stroke. Just put your points in series with the output of the xenon tube to fire at the right time.

Regards,

Ossie

k4zep

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #423 on: July 04, 2008, 02:59:18 PM »
Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

Try a 110VAC light bulb in series with the high side of the inverter/diode chain. Put it between the INVERTER output and the DIODE. This will protect the inverter and fix the big spike on it during pulses! It will light up when motor is running and limit current. Ossie is dead on about polarities!  In that video on YouTube of the kick start motorcycle motor that almost runs, notice the bulb.


Ben

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #424 on: July 04, 2008, 03:25:08 PM »
Alright, alright, perhaps I'm just a bit overanxious to get to the engine part. :)
I'll turn it down a bit. ;)

I just got the impression we were already doing very well with the plasma ignition
and the circuit that I thought we might be ready to move to the engine part of
the story already.
And since s1r9a9m9 has been posting about his working V8, I thought "here we go". :)

But if you guys want to work out the circuit some more and come up with a
"standardised" circuit for this before we start trying things in engines,
that's fine with me.
Don't let my enthousiasm complicate your circuit tests. :)

@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...

Hi Koen,

I really only can answer your sentiments here by stressing how important it is for people to get the electronics and the discharge plasma right before trying to apply it to an engine. Even though we can present it as simple, for many lesser experienced, in practice I am sure it is not simple for them. But we must endevour to assist people to understand and get the electronics and discharge right. This is because if people were to jump straight in and try and get a motor running, without the correct plasma discharge, they will fail and if many people fail they will report it as so and then sooner than later everyone will be saying it does not work, cannot work and never had worked. So where as I applaud people for going ahead and trying to get an engine to run I am hesitant to encourage them to do so before they are able to understand and get the electronics and the correct plasma discharge occuring in their spark plugs, because if they don't they are doomed to failure.

Regards,

Ossie


bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #425 on: July 04, 2008, 03:29:01 PM »
I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #426 on: July 04, 2008, 03:37:58 PM »
Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

Hi bumfuzzled,

You need to prove the polarity first so that you know and understand why you are connecting the output of the diode string to either the high pin or the base of the spark plug. To prove the polarity coming out of your ignition coil you must simply test which direction the spark travels through a string if diodes. If you get a spark with the test string of diodes pointing to the engine ground then the ignition coils output is positive and you need to connect the power supply output diode string to the high pin of the spark plug. If you get a spark with the test string of diodes pointing to the ignition coil then you need to connect the power supply output diode string to the ground of the spark plug. This polarity test using a test string of diodes is done between the ignition coil output and the engine ground only.

Regards,

Ossie

vlpe

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #427 on: July 04, 2008, 03:42:53 PM »
anybody can answer: why use inverter, if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??  Thanks a lot

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #428 on: July 04, 2008, 03:47:10 PM »
I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.

Hi bumfuzzled,

I beg to differ about the cause of the sound. I have ran many a petrol engine without a muffler in my time and I am sure most will agree with me that it is not something you put up with for long. A petrol engine without a muffler is a terribly loud sort of cracking sound.

But I do want to point out another thing we have noticed on these supposed water engines and that is that there does appear to be something like water vapour coming out of the exhaust and not smoke as that you would expect from a petrol enine. This exhausted water vapour soon just dissapears and pretty quickly becomes invisible or falls downwards.

Regards,

Ossie


petersone

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #429 on: July 04, 2008, 03:48:17 PM »
Hi vlpe
I think it's to get a higher voltage,suppose you could use mains or a bunch of 12v batteries.
Someone will tell us if I'm wrong.
happy hunting
peter

bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #430 on: July 04, 2008, 03:48:37 PM »
Another thing to think about is these motors with a magneto and points have a waste spark at the top of the exhaust stroke. Is the inverter able to charge the cap up quick enough everytime for both sparks?? You electronics gurus will have to figure that one out. A motor running at 3000 rpm with a waste spark will pulse the HV 3000 times a minute so that's 50 times a second, can the inverter keep up??

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #431 on: July 04, 2008, 03:52:45 PM »
anybody can answer: why use inverter, if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??  Thanks a lot

Hi vlpe,

My tests have shown that you need at least 90-100 volts minimum to cause a plasma discharge across the ignition spark in a spark plug set for a standard gap. An inverter raises 12 volts to 110 or 240 volts for this purpose. Many other methods and DC power supplies can be used for this purpose. But considering the relatively cheap price of inverters these days, it is quite convienient to use one. As long as you know what your doing and don't blow it up...

Regards,

Ossie


bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #432 on: July 04, 2008, 03:55:14 PM »
Hi bumfuzzled,

I beg to differ about the cause of the sound. I have ran many a petrol engine without a muffler in my time and I am sure most will agree with me that it is not something you put up with for long. A petrol engine without a muffler is a terribly loud sort of cracking sound.

But I do want to point out another thing we have noticed on these supposed water engines and that is that there does appear to be something like water vapour coming out of the exhaust and not smoke as that you would expect from a petrol enine. This exhausted water vapour soon just dissapears and pretty quickly becomes invisible or falls downwards.

Regards,

Ossie



Yes they are etremely loud without a muffler but yer listening to a video so yer not getting the full dynamics of the sound. My neighbor was mowing his yard the other day without a muffler on it and it sounded just like these motors, he was a good 100 yards away so the loudness of the motor was not there for me to hear. I could hear that distinctive pop. I've ran mowers, motorcycles and other small engines without muflers and yes they are extremely loud but they all also have that same distinct pop. With water it may not have the loudness with it but there is only one way to find out so off I go to experiment.

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #433 on: July 04, 2008, 04:03:07 PM »
Another thing to think about is these motors with a magneto and points have a waste spark at the top of the exhaust stroke. Is the inverter able to charge the cap up quick enough everytime for both sparks?? You electronics gurus will have to figure that one out. A motor running at 3000 rpm with a waste spark will pulse the HV 3000 times a minute so that's 50 times a second, can the inverter keep up??

Hi bumfuzzled,

Please see the last circuit and results I posted as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109796.html#msg109796

I have run this circuit up to 100Hz with no problems. At 70Hz it only uses 5 amps at 12V on the inverter's input. The inverter was delivering only 60 watts where it is designed to deliver up to 300 watts continuously. I know you have been blowing up inverters and are trying to do this but please try and read and understand all of the previous posts regarding the circuits. Get someone to help you if you need to. This may help you to have more success.

Regards,

Ossie


xbox hacker

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #434 on: July 04, 2008, 04:20:27 PM »
@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...
Yes, that is correct, but obviously it wouldnt work if the plug was in the motor...LOL

I think the best part was the ammeter did move when fireing. But now i killed the starting gear, so i got to try to find a new one.  :-\