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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1405567 times)

xbox hacker

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #405 on: July 04, 2008, 07:32:02 AM »
Hey xbox,condolences on your tv.I was looking at your circuit diagram,what would happen if your coil wasnt grounded at the base of the plug?Could that possibly make any difference at all?
Thanx wopper for your kind thoughts....LOL Just one more thin i have to fix

ANYWAY..If it was not grounded...it would not arc at all. It seems to be a catch 22 i need ground for the HV and ground for the DC...but not both at the same time.  :-\

gotoluc

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Re: Water Sparkplug Concept Duplicated Again
« Reply #406 on: July 04, 2008, 07:34:32 AM »
Great job Gotoluc and Ossie,

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Not sure if you agree with the explanation, but the electroradiant event you have is fragmenting the heaviside flow away from the conductive wire.

Take care,
Aaron

Hi Aaron, thanks for doing this great video and posting it here for us to see. Your explanation sounds good ;) we will hopefully all be looking at this.

Keep us updated and please feel free to copy my first page of this topic which I just updated the text and my simple schematic and please also include calanan's great posts to help spread this information at the Energetic Forum also.

Thanks

Luc
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 06:45:58 PM by gotoluc »

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #407 on: July 04, 2008, 07:57:10 AM »
Powering a car is going to be fraught with difficulty.  The water freezing issue could be a show stopper for many.  Then there is the rusting, and the bent con-rods when the cylinders hydraulic ...

Vehicle emmissions shouldn't be a big problem - but I expect a nasty backlash from government authorities, on whatever trumped up charges they can think of.

There might be easier solutions for putting this effect to use.  What about a water pump arrangement?  This could prove overunity, and be used to power conventional electric generators or heatpumps or compressors. 

I'm thinking a small pressure vessel with a couple of non-return valves as inlet and outlets.  An open-to-atmosphere gravity tank would maintain a head of pressure on this tank, to maintain a constant supply of water to this pressure vessel.  The spark plug would fire at timed intervals, and the blast would force water up a pipe to the gravity tank - perhaps through a turbine load. 

Although very simple, this could be very dangerous.  I would recommend building in a failsafe rupture disk - or a vent with some rubber hose that could blow in the event of an excessive pressure build up.  The device could be buried or housed in a concrete sheild or whatever.  I'm thinking generous pipe sizes - the idea to minimize the pressure and maximise the flow rate.  Very small sparks @ very low power, creating a big flow is going to impress people that overunity has ARRIVED!

A simple device like this could be replicated widely and put into agricultural use - the economic advantages would not be lost on most people who have to pay for the priviledge to pump water.  Maybe this could purify the water at the same time ...


EDIT Do we know if a completely submerged plug will fire?  If the theory is correct, the energy is from converting liquid water to vapour state.  That suggests that starting with vapour is wrong - can we start with liquid water?

If an air gap is actually required, a couple of probes in the pressure vessel could sense when water had refilled to a set level and trigger the spark ...


tishatang

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #408 on: July 04, 2008, 08:08:15 AM »
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #409 on: July 04, 2008, 08:18:22 AM »
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

Nothing that some electronics couldn't fix.  The pulse from the magneto could be used to just as a timing pulse.  I believe this system will require more Retarded timing, which can be achieved with a small time delay.  If Advance is required, an even longer time delay would give a phase shift of slightly less than 360 degrees which achieves the same thing.  The trick is to make the time delay track the RPM - but nothing that some electronics couldn't solve.



greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #410 on: July 04, 2008, 08:46:23 AM »
Interesting thought from  http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4139758.html

Quote
With the growth of the offshore industry it has become essential to be able to make welds under water to a standard that satisfies certain nationally and internationally recognised welding codes. Attempts have been made to weld underwater without taking any steps to protect the welding arc from water. These have been unsuccessful, partly because water entering the arc becomes dissociated and the hydrogen thus formed is dissolved in the weld pool. The rapid quenching effect of the water on the weldments creates hard martensitic structures in the heat affected zone (HAZ) which are susceptible to hydrogen induced cracking, owing to hydrogen diffusion into the heat affected zone, particularly in joints subject to restraint.

aether22

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #411 on: July 04, 2008, 08:55:27 AM »
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

I actually checked to make sure I wasn't somehow accidentally on the wrong page, you seriously need to stop buying inverters!

capacitor70

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callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #413 on: July 04, 2008, 10:15:57 AM »
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html

Hi capacitor70 and all,

One thing I'd like to point out here in regard to the credibility of video claims of water only powered engines. Ben and I have recently discussed how they have a distinct and peculiar noise they make when they fire. It is almost like what an engine sounds like when the spark plug is out and it is turned over. They sound also does not have the same bang to it as with a normal petrol engine.

So I hope this video is the real thing here as it fits these characteristics just as s1r9a9m9's videos do but hell, I would just like to shake this guys hand for doing this on a motorcyle engine with just a kick start! The guys got a whole lot of optimism and it is people like this who can make the difference for all of us here.

Soon he will get his air-waterfuel mixture right and have that engine running continuously and when this happens, I am sure we will be seeing many more videos of more people doing this same. So let's all cross our fingers here...

Regards,

Ossie


send_to_nice

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #414 on: July 04, 2008, 11:06:26 AM »
There have been some really good posts here in the last 24 hours that echo my current sentiments - that we really need to establish what we are working towards here. I gather from some of the later posts that this thread is all about the spark itself and the circuitry needed to produce it efficiently and reliably. I must admit, I am a little more comfortable with this knowledge as I did sometimes wonder if this thread wasn't just a whole lot of misdirected enthusiasm that was ultimately going to lead us nowhere.

I'm glad we seem to have established the purpose of this thread. I do think that there are a lot of highly talented people here and, just like any open source project, much talent is wasted if it's not channelled effectively towards a bigger plan and common purpose. I also think that we should acknowledge and use the talents of those who are skilled at things other than electronics in order to make this project a reality.

So, what I personally think we need to do is come up with a plan of where we ultimately want to go then divide and conquer. Some say this could pose challenges for auto engines, others say stick to generators, others want to replace diesel with water. What if we made this a 'project'? Start our own forum, move this thread there, and create other threads for discussing aspects beyond circuitry. I have limited knowledge of electronics, a heavily limited budget, and not much spare time. So does this mean I have nothing useful to offer this project? Of course not! There are all sorts of factors to consider before we come up with a plan for what we are aiming for, but I think we need a roadmap so people can see progress, and perhaps a table that shows who has done what and when. It seems there's a lot of people here who say "I just bought a such and such but i'm tired so i'll try it tomorrow" but how many of us go back to read their post explaining how it went? If we do read it, do we realise it's the same person? Do they actually post their findings at all? I don't know - I find it hard to keep track of who has done what.

I'm just terrified of losing our key talents and a record of their progress when people just disappear. Speaking of which, everyone always quotes s1r... Where is he? Bring him on I say! Someone must know him, so why is he not here??

I hope this topic stays here because it being deleted would be a classic case in point of what I want to avoid - one track mindedness. This project needs a soul. Let's give it one.

stu

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #415 on: July 04, 2008, 12:24:30 PM »
Hi stu,

It is a good idea to build the simple strobe device and see and understand how it work. With the other circuit, the sig gen is simply to replicate an ICE firing the ignition coil. But if you are considering trying the strobe circuit on an ICE, it will not serve your purpose as it is only capable of charging it's capacitor up about once every second. It is only being powered by a 9V battery after all. The strobe device is simply a demonstration device to shown how easy it is to explode water with little input power.

Regards,

Ossie




Thanks Ossie, but what I was thinking of was purely about proving the new circuit on the bench (my build quality) - with this in mind is it okay to drive it with the srobe, in the way I had mentioned, before considering attaching it to an ICE?

k4zep

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #416 on: July 04, 2008, 01:07:06 PM »
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html

Hi Cap70,

Wow, I feel I'm running at the back of the pack here.  You obviously have your electronics down pat for your engine but you have a real water/fuel delivery problem.  A carburetor is designed to atomize gas into a vapor, mix the correct amount of air and then the engine runs on it.  The plasma process doesn't use a vapor from a carb but I think needs a wetting of the plug with water, injection/mist, etc.  But my hat is off to you!!!! 

The strange thunka thunkkkkkkk sound of all the water engines I have heard run so far,  I suspect are caused by the timing firing position and the air intake noise we are not used to hearing as it sucks in air ....

The funny thing is it might be possible that this engine doesn't need intake air to run, only displacement for the generated hydrogen/oxygen gas to burn plus the pressure wave from the break down process to expand on the down stroke of the engine!  If this theory is correct as to what I hear when an engine is running, it has very little to do with compression as compression is going away when the plug fires somewhere after TDC (35 degrees?). 

Anyway, all keep at it..............I am encouraged!!!!!  Now I have to go peel potatoes for tater salad for this afternoon, Honey doooosss,
motor can wait. Family and boat trip for 8 this afternoon can't.


Ben

qiman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #417 on: July 04, 2008, 01:07:27 PM »
make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections.

Hi Callanan,

I enjoyed your vids and posts.

My inverter had built in protection so it simply trips itself to prevent overload. Then I simply turn it off then back on and it is fine.

There are some very specific ways to design the circuit so that worrying about the isolation is not even an issue. There is extra benefits to this that I will discuss later.

Anyway, if someone wants most of the circuit you're showing for free...go to any grocery store that processes photos and tell them you're doing a science project and ask for some disposable cameras. You will get free strobes, batts and photoflash caps. You won't drive around the planet with that :), but it is free usually and is enough for anyone to demo the effect to themselves. Other than the disposable camera that was tossed, battery, plug, wire and ignition coil.

bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #418 on: July 04, 2008, 02:20:29 PM »
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

All you have to do is remove the key from the flywheel then you can set the timing wherever you want. Just be sure to tighten the flywheel back down real good. Yes there's some guess work but you can get it close enough. This is what the go kart racers do to them.

I have an old Honda 550 4 cylinder sitting in the shed that would be easy as far as getting the timing right but 4 cylinders would be much harder to get running than one cylinder so I'll stick with the little B&S for now.

Koen1

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #419 on: July 04, 2008, 02:48:34 PM »
Alright, alright, perhaps I'm just a bit overanxious to get to the engine part. :)
I'll turn it down a bit. ;)

I just got the impression we were already doing very well with the plasma ignition
and the circuit that I thought we might be ready to move to the engine part of
the story already.
And since s1r9a9m9 has been posting about his working V8, I thought "here we go". :)

But if you guys want to work out the circuit some more and come up with a
"standardised" circuit for this before we start trying things in engines,
that's fine with me.
Don't let my enthousiasm complicate your circuit tests. :)

@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...