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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1405498 times)

DrStiffler

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #270 on: July 01, 2008, 07:14:53 PM »
DrStiffler

Just  trying to ake sure that I understand  what you are saying



Your previous  post   about connecting a  ground to me seemed to be  about  another  form of energy  being  created in another  part of the circuit  .

Now it looks like    you are saying that it there is OU here it is  in the spark .
 Is it possible that the  guys that  wrote the  law of  thermodynamics  forgot  to  measure  the  energy created  by a spark in water ? 
Or did  they just assume that   the spark  would follow their  law ?

What is  your opinion on this ......Is the spark following  the law ?

gary
@resonanceman
I think you need to read what I said and not what you think could be between the lines. I never mentioned OU or any violation of LoT, even though LoT is a set of misunderstandings.

Now I have adequate supporting experiments to show that circuits (at least the ones I work with) will cease to cohere energy if any part of the circuit is connected to ground.

If you feel Luc's circuit is doing an intake of some ethereal energy them do indeed try my suggestion. If you end up with apparent additional energy with the ground, then I am wrong, yet I would highly question ground as a source of energy in this context.

Again when I say secondary, additional or in addition to, that in no way can be construed as saying OU or LoT violation.

aether22

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #271 on: July 01, 2008, 09:14:53 PM »
Really it is a philosophical issue as to if energy in such experiments is created in violation of the first law or merely released from some unmonitored (and vast) form of energy present everywhere.

Either way they can work and the question in this case is only if there is more energy we are getting out than we are intentionally putting in.

No one can prove that energy can't be created or destroyed under any circumstance, to do so would require absolute knowledge of everything there is and know that there is nothing outside your knowledge, that may even be a big ask for a God.

At the same time it is impossible to prove that energy can be created, it could always be that energy is disappearing from some vast unseen storehouse at the same rate it is appearing in a device.

Neither side can ever possibly prove it either way to an absolute certainty.

What is not up for debate even by the most skeptical is that it is possible for a device to output energy while putting either no or less energy into it in any deliberate form.

So is this more energy out that in? Based on 9991mars (s1r9a9m9) and the good Doctors test it would seem so.
Now the question becomes if there is anything beyond normal amps and volts required to generate the effect, Luc believes/believed so but seemingly there are a wide range of possible circuits that can create the effect.
That is an important question to answer.

Clearly there needs to be a simple circuit that anyone cab build without need for an inverter, and a circuit fit for putting into an auto.
One thought I have is that it is a good idea to try this first in an engine with gas and then slowly add water to the mix increasing the mix until it is all or mostly all water. (whatever works)
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.

atlantex

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #272 on: July 01, 2008, 09:28:13 PM »
Quote
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.

Heat should due to the friction of the cylinder absolutely no problem, there will be still enough heat generated to warm up the whole car, also in the winter.

The fact of a cold reaction is phenomenal because so we don't have to fear to damage the engine, since a wrong spark plug can act like a burner to the cylinder...


atlantex

exxcomm0n

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #273 on: July 01, 2008, 11:06:18 PM »
The posted results have shown a great effect with liquid water and the idea that the finer the mist, the better the reaction.

I was trying to envision the pump/injector combination that would allow the finest of mists (like the gasoline used today should be perhaps?)

Then I started thinking physical state rather than mechanical means.

Anyone thought of trying steam?

Just a musing.

:D

@ Stephan

Thanks for seconding the crob227 study I mentioned earlier. I find his experimentation very exciting and think he might like to be invited to OU.


resonanceman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #274 on: July 01, 2008, 11:20:43 PM »


Either way they can work and the question in this case is only if there is more energy we are getting out than we are intentionally putting in.


Aether

It seems to me that   our opinions of  if there is more energy coming  in or going out  depends more of our  definition of energy anything else .

I have been told that   if a magnet   holds  a weight   for an extended time no  work is done .   because  there is  no movement and no  energy input .        If  an electro magnet is used to hold the same weight work IS done . 
This  seems really  foolish to me .



This  thread  is about  attempting to replicate  circuit  of S1r9 
If  it has  any  " extra " energy  doesn't really matter  at this point .

I think  the only  questions  we need to think about are does it work ?
And can it be improved .



Quote
Clearly there needs to be a simple circuit that anyone cab build without need for an inverter, and a circuit fit for putting into an auto.

I have been thinking of a 12 V system  today .
I  still have some work to do on it .
The problem is  how  to  protect the  low  volt side  with out  using  REALLY expensive diodes .


Quote
One thought I have is that it is a good idea to try this first in an engine with gas and then slowly add water to the mix increasing the mix until it is all or mostly all water. (whatever works)
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.


The whole  system  is  different .      I don't think  you can mix apples  and oranges in the same engine .


gary

Dread

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #275 on: July 02, 2008, 12:32:19 AM »
...Sure you can. It's called an App-Or-ittion.

tishatang

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #276 on: July 02, 2008, 04:21:58 AM »
@All

According to Dr. Stiffler, water is a good lube.  So, maybe we don't have to mix in oil in a two-stroke engine?
I have an old 50cc 2-cycle Honda motor scooter.  The engine is electric start with auto injected oil system.  If I try to run it on water, should I leave the oil reservoir dry or add soluble oil?  Regular oil won't mix with water.  Soluble oil may change the reaction?  Any suggestions?

Tishatang

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #277 on: July 02, 2008, 04:39:25 AM »
DrStiffler,

It would be wonderful if a person such as yourself could assist and be involved with the practical developments of the process and effects as described in this thread. For anyone who, understandably, has concerns as to the validity of the premise that the energy output exceeds the electrical energy input in this process, then I must strongly urge them to read and study a paper that was previously mentioned a few posts ago and was found and shown to me by my good friend Ben, who has now done some good research on this topic.

The paper was published by Cambridge University Press and was written by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK. The title of the paper is, "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy". It is an excellent paper that fully supports and describes what we have seen in the basic and simple experiments described in this thread. Ben found the paper here as follows:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

Stephan has also uploaded the paper here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

The paper clearly explains that the output energy is NOT from any H2O dissassociation and ignition process but simply an electrochemical process where the hydrogen bonds of the H2O molecule, that causes water to remain in a liquid state, are broken by an electric plasma pulse which converts the water into a dense fog state. A fog state is where the H2O molecules are not bonded with each other to form a liquid state but are unbonded and densely dispersed with air to form a fog.

Quotes: "Experimental observations leave little doubt that internal water energy is being liberated by the sudden electrodynamic conversion of about one-third of the water into dense fog", "The loss of intermolecular bond energy in the conversion from liquid to fog must be the source of the explosion energy", "This bond energy is said to be equal to the latent heat of evaporation, and therefore could contribute up to 2200 J g^-1."

So there is already some good academic science behind what we are seeing in this process. I have no doubt that the effects we have seen, as well as other effects yet to be discovered which you yourself have found, can be used and utilised to build a working engine or motor that is powered solely by pure water. Regardless if the result turns out to be a completely new design and form of engine or a simple retofit to existing engines, the goal in the end is the same although the later would have a more rapid impact in terms of the application of the technology.

So I am very encouraged and pleased by your interest in this thread and some of the basic tests you have already done to see for yourself if there is anything real in the claims made. I hope that more important and serious researchers, like yourself, can come together to openly assist and work on what has been described in this thread for the benefit of all.

Regards,

Ossie


bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #278 on: July 02, 2008, 04:50:41 AM »
Blew up a brand spankin' new inverter tonight!! Don't know why but I hooked it up to the battery and to the rectifier, turned it on and all was fine. I didn't have the neg side of the HV hooked up but as soon as I hooked the pos side up to the battery the inverter blew. Could it be because I have to switch polarity on the IC?? Anyway, hooked back up to the wall outlet and used 2 old heater elements I had laying around as resistors in the low voltage side and it worked without blowing the diodes this time, I'm using 8 5408 diodes. I can definitely tell the arc gets bigger when water is introduced. I'm gonna try some steam tomorrow afternoon and see what happens. If I get good results I might post a vid. This is cool! lol

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #279 on: July 02, 2008, 05:03:44 AM »
Bumfuzzled and All,

If you are going to use inverters as your power supply please avoid using new and modern inverters that are all HF semiconductor based and are effectively the reverse of a switch mode power supply and does not have a large standard transformer in it. These modern inverters, because they are all semconductor based, will be very sensitive to any reverse HV spikes and you will blow the semiconductors in them quite easily. The best inverters to use are the older type that are very heavy because they have a large transformer in them. They work in reverse to a normal step down mains transformer and use transistors to oscillate at 50-60Hz the 12V side of the trnasformer. The 110-240V side is just the transformer's output winding. So these inverters are much more tolerent to HV spikes as the transistor's are protected by the transformers internal winding insulation, although even this does have a limit.

I do NOT recomend people use inverters unless they are either qualified or experienced in working with mains power voltages as the output of the inverter is lethal and the same as your house mains power point.

Regards,

Ossie

livingwaters08

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #280 on: July 02, 2008, 05:35:40 AM »
Group,
I don't want to muddy the waters here, but this may help when connecting all of this to an engine.  Years ago automobiles were positive ground.  My late grandfather's 1932 Ford is an example of this.

Could this arrangement help the grounding problem of the inverter in the circuit ?  I just felt compelled  to mention this.  I don't know how complicated it would be to convert a modern automobile over to positive ground, or even if this would be feasible.

Hope this information helps in some small way. ;)

Livingwaters08

tinu

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #281 on: July 02, 2008, 07:09:32 AM »
...
What is not up for debate even by the most skeptical is that it is possible for a device to output energy while putting either no or less energy into it in any deliberate form.

So is this more energy out that in?
...

Well, I strongly challenge that!
(Nothing personal here; the issue is for group ? it just happened I found your post)

Shortly: much excitement on the paper already published (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93) at a first reading. Many thanks to Ben and Stefan for pointing to it and for making it available. I said WOW and put it away for careful study. Several ours later, a big BUT appeared: on page 125, in Table 1, E12 is grossly miscomputed, by a factor of 100. A mass Mg of about 60g which is propelled at a height of 0.5m needs only 0.3J and NOT 30J. All E12 are miscomputed as so are Eout/Ein ratios. E12 is the heart of the whole paper (as well as of other papers published earlier); it makes me wonder what happens here, as such a mistake is not to be made by a scientist?

In conclusion: Graneau and Graneau clearly prove that about 1% or less of initial energy (that is 0.3J out of 30J or so) goes into studied phenomena and produces a loud bang. If they are correct, there is no useful energy in that bang and no motor is possible, no matter how spectacular the effect is. Not to mention that overunity and extra-energy would be out of question and the whole paper goes down the drain and a large part of the reputation of the parties involved?

Regardless of the above, I was about to raise the issue of real power out. But as an ?armchair scientist? that never seen an electron nor had changed its filters and quarks in a while now, I better refrain myself?

Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Tinu

gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #282 on: July 02, 2008, 07:24:04 AM »
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

Hi Dr. Stiffler, that sounds amazing. Looking forward to a video ;D

At everyone, today is Canada day and I worked all day on the circuit and found something new. The flash of the spark is so bright that I cannot look at it anymore. You cannot see this too much in the video but look at the wood board the spark plug is on, it turns blue. Also look at the last frames and you will see the flame come out of the plug over one inch.

Please look at the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVs_UJ-XRU

S1R has told me that when I have the kind of spark he has I would need sun glasses to look at it. I need to do more tests before I can say if this is the real thing.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Luc

« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 07:34:36 AM by gotoluc »

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #283 on: July 02, 2008, 07:30:04 AM »
There are so many well documented stories of invertors running cars on water alone.  Who cares why it works - let's stick to experimental findings, instead of armchair bollocks.

The established sciences are bought and paid for with big oil money.  The facts are changed to suit the higher agenda - and no "scientist" really has any say in the matter.

Thought for your consideration: To protect yourself & your inverter - why not use an isolation transformer.  You can buy transformers that convert 110 to 220 or vice versa.  These could provide a nice boost as well as isolation. 

I have a big question mark at this time: is square wave really necessary?  Ignore my ignorant rantings earlier - i've read too much Beardon and not done enought experimenting.  If what Ossie is saying is correct - it should not matter 1% how we charge the capicitor ... DC is DC - is that correct?  Or does it have to be pulsed?

aether22

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #284 on: July 02, 2008, 07:33:26 AM »
Well, I strongly challenge that!


You strongly challenge what? My question?

BTW as to there being more out than in I challenge your argument, first s1r9a9m9 showed it can power a car and so if as it seems this is successful creation of the effect then it seemingly should be assuming the origonal claim or myers claim are genuine.
But also please note the hole made in the half inch thick Aluminium, that shows there is tremendous power.

It is also worth noting that an experimenter reported to Keelynet that he had a transducer putting sound into water and at somewhere in range of the frequency several water OU inventors have used the water shot up leaving a hole in the ceiling.