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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1369989 times)

Offline nightlife

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2008, 11:07:13 PM »
DrStiffler,
Quote
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.


 That may be true but the pre-energized water may be pre-conditioned for the effect to take place. Based on what Luc's experiment has proven, it must be energized before it can be ignited.

 Maybe energizing the water gets the molecules moving and that maybe why it can then and only then be ignited.

 This is the only thing I can think of as far as why it has to have a initially power introduced first.

Offline eastcoastwilly

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2008, 11:38:58 PM »
Hi Luc,

Great work from you and great input from others. Further to nightlife's suggestion of energizing water I wonder what effect using freshly Ozonated water would have on the effect. Many people are mis-informed about ozone, it is VERY, reactive to most inorganic materials, however Ozone is one of natures wonders for purging the planet from toxins. I don't know if a cheap (O3) water ozonator would saturate enough O3 into the water to make a difference but It might be interesting :)

Good luck and keep up the great work folks

Will

Offline geovel56

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2008, 11:48:45 PM »
Hi Luc and OTHERS,

I guess no forum is immune to off topic posts.  I was truly hoping things would be different here with better moderating of the posts.  Bottom line:  Although HHO and electrolysis is a great concept, and just one workable solution to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, this thread was supposed to ONLY be for determining/developing/replicating and maybe enhancing the circuit used in S1R's project.

TO EVERYONE:
The action between water vapor and a plasma arc IS NOT instantaneous disassociation of water into its components, hydrolysis of any kind and really NOT the topic of this thread!

It is very similar to Flash Steam, if not flash steam itself!  It is very similar to Lightening and Thunder.  Lightening and Thunder is the discharge of high energy which pushes the air molecules between the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds.  Thunder is essentially a sonic boom which we not only hear, but also FEEL its concussion.

This is not a chemical - combustion reaction... it is a physical - concussion reaction with enough concussive force to push a piston down.

Now, can we please get back to developing the best circuit which Luc started, and work together to focus on this ALONE.  There are a million other forums out there for awesome alternative energy systems, but extraneous to this particular thread.

As S1R's videos already showed, he IS running the Briggs & Straton engine on water ALONE.  We just don't know what components are in the silver painted "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container, which is what Luc felt he had a handle on, and started this thread.

PLEASE!  Let's work together and help each other moving forward with what Luc started and not deviate from the task at hand... to recreate the circuit in the "mystery container."  The rest of the project is already known.

Respectfully,
Geo

Offline NerzhDishual

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2008, 12:13:17 AM »

Hi witty Guys,

Sounds like this bl' oil barrel price is getting to high. This have a gift for
increasing the creativity and the motivations of some free and sharp minds over here. ;D

Thanks a lot for all your informations and sharing...

@Harti_Berlin:
Thanks for the vid.

How to get the resistor out of the sparkplug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Can somebody please measure what the Ohm value of this resistor is ?
Is it in the 1 to 10  Ohm range or KOhms ?

In France the internal resistance of the Spark-Plug is 5000 ohms (5K).
I have some old car sparks plugs and also a old small motor SP that shows zero resistance!
According to the fact that the spark plug 'leads' have also some resistance, (officially for avoiding
RF interferences, I guess) .
This should be done to increase the mileage.  Unless it were the contrary. :'(

Best

Offline greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2008, 01:29:10 AM »
... I have what appears to be a stupid  idea ...What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer ...?

This is indeed a stupid idea.

NEVER DO THIS!!!  You can blow up the room and kill yourself very quickly.  Hopefully nobody has tried this - otherwise their silence on the results would be due to their instant demise, or hospitalisation with 3rd degree burns ...

I undestand what you are trying to prove - but be safe, whatever you do.


Offline yaz

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2008, 01:41:21 AM »
Stumbled upon a file on a few secrets on S1R's plasma setup. The original document has diagrams but here's a little snip of the document.

The SECRET OF Joe Cells and S1r?s Watercar

Note that Tesla?s BALL LIGHTNING was created by TWO POSITIVE ANODE DISCHARGES FROM TWO COILS IN HARMONIC RESONENCE WITH ONE COIL HAVING A HIGHER VOLTAGE THAN THE OTHER.

That is fundamentally what EV Gray did, what Papp did and what S1r did.  Simply, you create a high voltage and a low voltage spark gap (plug/positive anodes) and the discharge will form a type of plasma ball in air.  Do this intentionally in a cylinder that is grounded and you get a BIG BANG that is contained in a small area that is sufficient to drive a piston down.   

Graneau exploded water just using a single HV capacitance discharge, but this approach is not practical in an engine as it created a concentrated unidirectional explosion but was difficult to recharge and reload.  Tesla?s dual coil simplicity, however, is easily replicated and can be fired at whatever frequency (RPM) required.

S1r?s circuit is very similar to Tesla?s in that he used his car?s normal HV ignition coil and a low voltage (LV) 110v inverter rectified (with high amps) and fired these together through a single wire to the spark plugs.  Many people were confused by S1r?s relays, but these are just additional coils and a way to merge the POSITIVE HV and LV sources together AT A SINGLE ANODE.  The same thing could be accomplished using a 2 ANODE PLUG in each cylinder (but nobody makes those YET.)

Has anyone tried to adjust the high voltage frequency to resonate with the inverter?


The actual document is here.
http://www.thejoecell.com/files/The_Tesla_Plasma_Engine.doc

If you can't see the document due to a graphics filter problem (like I had) here's a link to a viewer.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=95E24C87-8732-48D5-8689-AB826E7B8FDF&displaylang=en


Offline greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2008, 01:55:58 AM »
If i'm understanding this correctly -  it's the sharp square wave of a cheap inverter that is creating the anomolous radiant energy spark.  So so don't buy a sine or modified sine inverter - get the cheap square wave ones.  If speed of diodes is important, then the speed of the diodes in the bridge rectifier will be important.  And don't try to parallel them together, as the pulses from both inverters may not be in phase, so there are complications.  You could just end up with non-pulsed DC most of the time.

Watch out for disinformation from MIB in this thread.  (for all you know, I could be a MIB - there is little point me trying to reassure you that i'm just a geniune free energy tinkerer - so use your brains to see what is going on here).

I like the steam kettle idea for initial proof of concept testing.

I like the multiple spark approach.  How about two seperate sparks - one high voltage low current to ionise the spark gap, and then hit it with lower voltage but higher current immediately afterwards.

How about connecting 12V directly from the battery to the spark plugs all the time with high current leads.  They would normally never conduct anything - until the spark happened ... would that provide more grunt to the detonation?  I understand hho cells only require 2V, and anything more is wasteful - perhaps (once the plasma spark has been formed) low voltage is better?

The catch to this idea is that we don't want to create a path so that multiple cylinders fire at once.  Should work with a single cylinder engine - might require diodes or switching for multi cylinders?

I like the idea of using the existing ignition circuit to provide the timed 12V.  How about a 555 running at 200hz (whatever is optimal - is Bedini Tesla switch data trustworthy?) gating a MOSFET to charge the capacitor.  Maybe a single-shot 555 to operate some MOSFETs configured as the SPDT gate to send the capicitor charge to the distributor.  (The time delay required for charging the capicitor would need to be deducted from the ignition timing - ie. we would need to advance the timing.  I expect the timing will have to be manually adjusted for the new fuel anyway).

I hope these thoughts help.  Ignore them otherwise - I really want to see this thing suceed.

EDIT Perhaps a single cylinder engine that can be manually set to TDC by hand would be a good start.  If we could get a single power stoke from a single spark, we would be onto something.  The trick would be to get the compressed air to hold enough water - maybe steam kettle into the inlet manifold, and prime it with a single turn by hand before ignition. 

I think it's important to get some quick proof of concept results to encourage a breakthrough that can't be suppressed.







« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 02:24:13 AM by greendoor »

Offline callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2008, 02:11:05 AM »
Hi Stephan,

>Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

- My spark plug does not have any resistor. It measures 0 ohms.

> Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

- Most definately. But I would have never believed I could get water to explode on demand even with the 1-1.5 amp at 12 volts I am using. Seeing and hearing is believing guys. This is very real indeed and practically very simple to replicate once you understand the key requirements.

> It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

- The goal must be to come up with the best circuit for the least energy input. At this stage I don't know if this will mean it will be a capacitive discharge or power on demand circuit. I think that maybe a power on demand circuit with DC pulses at the correct frequency, pulse width and voltage may result in the least energy input. Plenty of lab work to do for all of us but because this is the first alternative energy system that I now believe is truly practical for the home experimenter to build and use, we need to stop all the speculation and guessing and theory and simply analyse technically what has been achieved practically as the overall system and process is very simple. So simple that if you are from a technical or scientific background, you would never beilieve it...

> Also, why is the spark blown out ?

- Simply because it is a very violent explosiong of the water. It is a true and real explosion indeed!!! What you are seeing that is poorly captured by the video is the extremly fast expanding gases of a violent explosion that also creates a loud bang like a fire cracker! It does have a red colour to the gas that does not get captured by the camera as well. I used my digital still camera which does video but no sound. If I get time I will try and capture it on my digital handy cam with the sound and better quality. Just a pain to capture it to PC and convert then upload to youtube but it is important to show.

> As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

- No. Why? The process is simply this and why it can easily be adapted to any combustion engine with a standard ignition system. All you need is a DC voltage supply of a few hundred volts, even just 100 volts, sitting across the spark plug in parallel with the car's normal and standard ignition system. Put water through the fuel system instead of petrol. When the normal HV spark from the standard ignition system occurs, it will ionise the air-water mixture between the spark plug gap and provide a conductive path for the DC voltage supply to flow. When the DC supply flows through the ionised air-water mixture, it instantaneously dissassociates the H2O and ignites the dissassociated hydrogen and oxygen gases. This explosion causes a violent expansion of the gases which pushes the engines cylinders down and drives the motor action of the engine in sequence.

- So the water does NOT burn. It explodes instantaneously and will continue to explode for every ignition pulse as long as there is moisture in the gap. When the moisture is gone there is no explosion. But it does not take much moisture and it seems that even a very humid rainy day may have enough moisture in the air for some small but limited ignitions. I am sure the current air humidity percentage will effect the efficiency of the overall process. Heat and steam work very well but is not needed as an external input as the spark plug gets so hot it starts to heat the moisture in the gap on it's own in a very short time. Please understand that I agree that this is unbelievable but now I am doing this on the lab bench and it is very real and very simple.

> Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

- Yes, exactly! The water itself explodes and is blowing out very voilently!

> In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

I don't know what is going on in that video but I don't think it really fit's in this very valuable thread. Luc well and truly needs a pat on the back.

> Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

- I have no doubt about it now. If you have read the pdf based on S1R9A9M9 work, I believe this can be done. He did it with little electronics knowledge and standard components and equipment. With just a little engineering, the whole process can be made so much more efficient and simple and applied to any combustion engine. The pdf can be found here.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/watercar.pdf

Regards,

Ossie

Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #98 on: June 29, 2008, 02:19:44 AM »
Hey guys,

Just new to the site and it seems very exciting. It seems that you are wanting to (by viewing the video of the 18 hp lawn mower engine on the cinderblock running on water) run an engine on water internally and not externally with a Hydrogen Gen. , feeding water directly into the combustion chamber and changing it there, by utilizing a plasma spark? I believe that is a brilliant idea, I even printed off the electrical diagram with the inverter and 12volt coil, you all posted in the last few days. I came across the FIRESTORM spark plug invention on the web and it sure looks like what we need for this application, it is a plasma emitting spark plug.....................God Bless ................J
Hi bigblue, welcome to this topic. Your understanding of what we would like to do is correct. However we are not the one who did the 18 hp engine video, the person who did the video is not sharing his circuit as you can see in his video the parts are in a metal tin. Here we share what we have and ideas of ways we can do this. We have a circuit that is giving positive results but as far as I know none of us have tried it in an engine yet. This circuit was just discovered about 3 days ago, so we are asking anyone who is interested to build it,  test it and share your findings and ideas to improve the circuit if at all possible.
Unfortunately for us the FIRESTORM spark plug was never manufactured. It seems to be a trend in our world :-[ we never get the good stuff. We all need to work together for things to change. This is what we are trying to do here.

Luc
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:08:25 AM by gotoluc »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #99 on: June 29, 2008, 02:27:46 AM »
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,
Hi nightlife, that is very interesting...can you find out the process involve in charging the water?

Thanks for sharing.

Luc


Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2008, 02:36:16 AM »
@nightlife
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.

Hi DrStiffler, thanks for dropping in. That is a good point also.

I would be interested in your opinion of this circuit and what has been shared to date.

Luc
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 03:36:35 AM by gotoluc »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2008, 02:39:23 AM »
I'm a little bit confused about the picture in post 1.

How is the neodyn magnet exactly connected?
atlantex
Hi atlantex, thanks for posting your concern. The Neo magnet is not needed and has now been removed.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2008, 02:45:49 AM »
Hi Luc,

Great work from you and great input from others. Further to nightlife's suggestion of energizing water I wonder what effect using freshly Ozonated water would have on the effect. Many people are mis-informed about ozone, it is VERY, reactive to most inorganic materials, however Ozone is one of natures wonders for purging the planet from toxins. I don't know if a cheap (O3) water ozonator would saturate enough O3 into the water to make a difference but It might be interesting :)

Good luck and keep up the great work folks

Will
Hi eastcoastwilly, thanks for looking at this topic and sharing your thought. I would think your idea deserve to be tested, why not :D
I'll write it on my things to test list. Thanks for sharing.

Luc
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:19:27 AM by gotoluc »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2008, 03:10:53 AM »
Hi Luc and OTHERS,

I guess no forum is immune to off topic posts.  I was truly hoping things would be different here with better moderating of the posts.  Bottom line:  Although HHO and electrolysis is a great concept, and just one workable solution to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, this thread was supposed to ONLY be for determining/developing/replicating and maybe enhancing the circuit used in S1R's project.

TO EVERYONE:
The action between water vapor and a plasma arc IS NOT instantaneous disassociation of water into its components, hydrolysis of any kind and really NOT the topic of this thread!

It is very similar to Flash Steam, if not flash steam itself!  It is very similar to Lightening and Thunder.  Lightening and Thunder is the discharge of high energy which pushes the air molecules between the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds.  Thunder is essentially a sonic boom which we not only hear, but also FEEL its concussion.

This is not a chemical - combustion reaction... it is a physical - concussion reaction with enough concussive force to push a piston down.

Now, can we please get back to developing the best circuit which Luc started, and work together to focus on this ALONE.  There are a million other forums out there for awesome alternative energy systems, but extraneous to this particular thread.

As S1R's videos already showed, he IS running the Briggs & Straton engine on water ALONE.  We just don't know what components are in the silver painted "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container, which is what Luc felt he had a handle on, and started this thread.

PLEASE!  Let's work together and help each other moving forward with what Luc started and not deviate from the task at hand... to recreate the circuit in the "mystery container."  The rest of the project is already known.

Respectfully,
Geo
Hi Geo, you have a good understanding and many good points, is that really a "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container ;D

Let us not loose focused here ;)

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2008, 03:24:25 AM »
Hi Stephan,

>Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

- My spark plug does not have any resistor. It measures 0 ohms.

> Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

- Most definately. But I would have never believed I could get water to explode on demand even with the 1-1.5 amp at 12 volts I am using. Seeing and hearing is believing guys. This is very real indeed and practically very simple to replicate once you understand the key requirements.

> It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

- The goal must be to come up with the best circuit for the least energy input. At this stage I don't know if this will mean it will be a capacitive discharge or power on demand circuit. I think that maybe a power on demand circuit with DC pulses at the correct frequency, pulse width and voltage may result in the least energy input. Plenty of lab work to do for all of us but because this is the first alternative energy system that I now believe is truly practical for the home experimenter to build and use, we need to stop all the speculation and guessing and theory and simply analyse technically what has been achieved practically as the overall system and process is very simple. So simple that if you are from a technical or scientific background, you would never beilieve it...

> Also, why is the spark blown out ?

- Simply because it is a very violent explosiong of the water. It is a true and real explosion indeed!!! What you are seeing that is poorly captured by the video is the extremly fast expanding gases of a violent explosion that also creates a loud bang like a fire cracker! It does have a red colour to the gas that does not get captured by the camera as well. I used my digital still camera which does video but no sound. If I get time I will try and capture it on my digital handy cam with the sound and better quality. Just a pain to capture it to PC and convert then upload to youtube but it is important to show.

> As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

- No. Why? The process is simply this and why it can easily be adapted to any combustion engine with a standard ignition system. All you need is a DC voltage supply of a few hundred volts, even just 100 volts, sitting across the spark plug in parallel with the car's normal and standard ignition system. Put water through the fuel system instead of petrol. When the normal HV spark from the standard ignition system occurs, it will ionise the air-water mixture between the spark plug gap and provide a conductive path for the DC voltage supply to flow. When the DC supply flows through the ionised air-water mixture, it instantaneously dissassociates the H2O and ignites the dissassociated hydrogen and oxygen gases. This explosion causes a violent expansion of the gases which pushes the engines cylinders down and drives the motor action of the engine in sequence.

- So the water does NOT burn. It explodes instantaneously and will continue to explode for every ignition pulse as long as there is moisture in the gap. When the moisture is gone there is no explosion. But it does not take much moisture and it seems that even a very humid rainy day may have enough moisture in the air for some small but limited ignitions. I am sure the current air humidity percentage will effect the efficiency of the overall process. Heat and steam work very well but is not needed as an external input as the spark plug gets so hot it starts to heat the moisture in the gap on it's own in a very short time. Please understand that I agree that this is unbelievable but now I am doing this on the lab bench and it is very real and very simple.

> Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

- Yes, exactly! The water itself explodes and is blowing out very voilently!

> In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

I don't know what is going on in that video but I don't think it really fit's in this very valuable thread. Luc well and truly needs a pat on the back.

> Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

- I have no doubt about it now. If you have read the pdf based on S1R9A9M9 work, I believe this can be done. He did it with little electronics knowledge and standard components and equipment. With just a little engineering, the whole process can be made so much more efficient and simple and applied to any combustion engine. The pdf can be found here.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/watercar.pdf

Regards,

Ossie
WOW :D Ossie, you are my hero. Thanks for the excellent written report and support. I knew it wasn't going to be an easy task to do but you are a God send to help this way.

Thank you thank you thank you, Amen

Luc