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Author Topic: This video pretty much says it all.  (Read 18661 times)

Offline innovation_station

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 04:25:49 PM »
silly site wants me to post it twice


hummm....

ist

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 04:25:49 PM »

Offline epwpixieq-1

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 05:03:53 PM »
Have you actually read the report you are posting?  I ask, because it is not exactly thorough.

1.  The testing company, per instructions, relied only on the on-board computer as far as documenting gas efficiency.  So no actual measurement of gasoline used was done.  If the onboard computer is not giving true readings, then the test results will not be accurate.

2.  The testing company, per instructions, did not examine the booster device at all.  This means there could have been fuel hidden in the booster device being added to the system.

Obviously, this is speculation, and we do not know what really happened.  But I am curious, why didn't the Check Engine LLC outfit just pay to have a real test done?  Why did they skimp on these vital details?


Usually measurements done with computes are quite accurate. In the rare case when they are not, usually due to some system misconfiguration, there will be d(x) inherited systematical functional error. As this error is permanent for the given state of the system, it will change the base line as well as the tests ( as given on page 3 in the report ) . From this follow that if there is any system imperfection inherited in the measurement it will be in the both tests data so it is illogical to say and imply that the computer system may error only the part of the data measuring possible fuel savings.

SAS

Offline utilitarian

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 05:15:08 PM »
Usually measurements done with computes are quite accurate. In the rare case when they are not, usually due to some system misconfiguration, there will be d(x) inherited systematical functional error. As this error is permanent for the given state of the system, it will change the base line as well as the tests ( as given on page 3 in the report ) . From this follow that if there is any system imperfection inherited in the measurement it will be in the both tests data so it is illogical to say and imply that the computer system may error only the part of the data measuring possible fuel savings.

SAS

I agree that any error with the computer would also be exhibited in the control, and also, probably, the ability to tamper with the computer is something outside the capabilities of most small outfits like this.  Still, it is possible that when the booster is activated, it could affect the computer in some way.  So why not simply measure fuel consumption in a way that you are sure is free from tampering?

Anyway, the non-examination of the booster device is what I have a real problem with.  There is nothing to indicate that the booster tested is the same device that is being sold.  This is a major flaw in the test.

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 05:15:08 PM »
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Offline KilltheMessenger

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 05:53:56 PM »
The only thing I have to go on, is logic.  If they could build any device that would give positive results, then why wouldn't that be the device they are selling to everyone? At $1200 each, it would be hard to not make a profit, unless they used titanium, and gold parts in the real device. I don't think that this process is a matter of what metals are used. Most all metals will produce HHO, but only the best will work for a long time without degrading into mush.  Nobody is saying that HHo can't be created, or that large amounts of HHO can't be created, or that the HHO isn't explosive and carries a huge amount of energy. All that is being said, is that the load on the alternator, needed to generate a large enough supply of HHO to benefit most engines, is never going to balance out to over unity. The amount of energy created, is going to be less than the energy needed to create that energy. There will be a loss if the energy is converted to any other form.

  There is nothing to indicate that the booster tested is the same device that is being sold.  This is a major flaw in the test.

Offline newbie123

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 06:31:29 PM »
 Who in their right mind would sell multiple  HHO booster devices to a Sheriff's Dept. knowing the device doesn't work?




Ok, Let's assume that we don't know everything about nature/physics for a second...

What else could actually be going on inside the engine of a HHO booster vehicle to improve performance, other than the actual energy from the Hydrogen.   

Could the HHO gas be cooling the engine, and improving the performance?

Could the compression or heat of the engine + hydroxy gas + water be adding energy somehow?

Is steam adding energy as well?


If the system does actually work, there probably xtra energy is coming from something other than HHO gas.




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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 06:31:29 PM »
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Offline utilitarian

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 06:39:44 PM »
Who in their right mind would sell multiple  HHO booster devices to a Sheriff's Dept. knowing the device doesn't work?

Ok, Let's assume that we don't know everything about nature/physics for a second...

What else could actually be going on inside the engine of a HHO booster vehicle to improve performance, other than the actual energy from the Hydrogen.   

Could the HHO gas be cooling the engine, and improving the performance?

Could the compression or heat of the engine + hydroxy gas + water be adding energy somehow?

Is steam adding energy as well?
If the system does actually work, there probably xtra energy is coming from something other than HHO gas.

They sell the devices to everybody.  What are they supposed to do when someone buys them, say no?

As far as the other effects you mentioned.  Just think about what you are saying for a second.  Do you know how many millions of manhours have been spent by car companies trying to figure out the most efficient way to build an engine?  Do you think that something as simple as cooling or changing the pressure in the cylinder has been overlooked?  If it was that simple to increase fuel mileage by the amounts claimed, every car maker would be doing it.

Offline newbie123

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 07:49:12 PM »

Well, the ICE is about 25 percent efficient, and has been for ..... What? 100 years?     The personal computer has evolved from dirt and is already 100000000x better in the last 30 years.

Tell me that sounds right.



Why not use something as basic as waste heat recovery (steam) to improve engine performance?   There's a 10 percent, at least, increase.

Why not recovery all the energy lost while breaking (with hydrolics, or some other energy recovery device)   ... There's another 20 percent increase..



These are very simple, and old, technologies, and probably easy to implement.   But they're even available yet? Why?



You can't honestly say something isn't fishy about this? Can you?


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 07:49:12 PM »
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Offline whopper1967

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 08:01:03 PM »
Apparently they were not too concerned,they never used the pogue type carbeurators that vaporized gas and got hundreds of miles to the gallon.Matter of fact,the shell oil company used to hold a yearly mpg contest,there were several cars that got at least 300 mpg,one that comes to mind recently was discovered and sold on ebay.It was an opel with some very interesting mods,it is a well know fact that liquid gas isnt burnt in engines,if you could vaporize the gas like they did in these carbs,well you get the picture,thats the whole point of catalytic converters,to finish buring the gas.Anyway,if you think the auto industry always has your best interest at heart,why are there so many new cars produced that have sooooo many problems with hardly any miles on them?They could make cars last a million miles if they wanted,yet even when they are taken care of,most dont last a hundred thousand without some major problems,except for toyota.....they rule...lol,wish i had one.

Offline utilitarian

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 08:08:04 PM »
Well, the ICE is about 25 percent efficient, and has been for ..... What? 100 years?     The personal computer has evolved from dirt and is already 100000000x better in the last 30 years.

Tell me that sounds right.

Why not use something as basic as waste heat recovery (steam) to improve engine performance?   There's a 10 percent, at least, increase.

Why not recovery all the energy lost while breaking (with hydrolics, or some other energy recovery device)   ... There's another 20 percent increase..

These are very simple, and old, technologies, and probably easy to implement.   But they're even available yet? Why?

There is nothing fishy here.  Braking energy regeneration is already in place in hybrid vehicles.  As for recapture of wasted heat, well, it's a complicated process.  There are economic and efficiency tradeoffs for everything.  If you have an economically viable way to make use of the excess heat generated by an ICE, let's have it.

For an example, look at turbocharging.  This is an old and proven technology to make an ICE more efficient.  Yet its drawbacks and costs keep it from being implemented across the board.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 08:08:04 PM »
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Offline hydrocontrol

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 09:00:39 PM »
Modern computer controlled engine systems are not designed to just add hydrogen and have the mileage improve without modifications made to the computer system to change the mixture and timing. You would have much better improvement in a standard points and condenser type car system. I believe that is one reason the automotive industry went to computer control is to try to prevent changing the fuel source. The fuel industry also came up with 'additives' that were 'suppose' to improve the fuel 'burn' but actually just watered down the fuel so you would use more. So in this regard KilltheMessenger is correct. About 90% of the modern computer controlled cars will not see any improvement in fuel economy by just adding HHO as the car computer will just change the operating parameters. So the basic 'off the shelf' add a HHO source to your engine will not work as the modern car engine has been designed to run on 'selected fuels'.  As for running and engine on more water than gas just check out the JLN website for his lawn mower engine running 80% water 20% gasoline. Reforming with the PMC. Off the shelf plumbing parts.

http://bingofuel.online.fr/bingofuel/pmcjlnen.htm

The method has been used on all sorts of engines. Just check the links. I would suggest people actually try a reformer on a simple engine first just to get prove that it actually works. People really need to open their eyes. The truth is you can run a simple engine on mostly water but a 'computerized designed to run only on gasoline engine'  is not going to be easy to run on any other fuel then the designed 'gasoline'.  No need to spend $ 1,200.00 for proof when you can spend less than $ 50.00 on some plumbing parts that will have positive results to show you can run an engine on water. Trying to improve the mileage of a modern car that has been designed "not" to be improved will never get good results and if you try there are EPA laws about engine modifications that will have the government coming after you for modifying your engine.

Offline newbie123

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 09:23:53 PM »


So far   it seems Hydrogen boosted Diesels are the way to go. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 09:23:53 PM »
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Offline newbie123

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 10:02:32 PM »
Braking energy regeneration is already in place in hybrid vehicles.  As for recapture of wasted heat, well, it's a complicated process.

Brake energy recovery could have been here 30+ years ago, it's not a new concept.

Why is waste heat recovery a complicated process? 

What I'm saying is there hasn't been a real objective for car companies (+oil and gov), (and public) to improve fuel economy up until like 2 years ago...  4 years ago 10mpg SUVs were getting pushed to the public. 

And if you think automakers have dumped all sorts of money into fuel efficiency you're nuts.  They care about one thing: money.











Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2008, 10:09:12 PM »
They sell the devices to everybody.  What are they supposed to do when someone buys them, say no?

As far as the other effects you mentioned.  Just think about what you are saying for a second.  Do you know how many millions of manhours have been spent by car companies trying to figure out the most efficient way to build an engine?  Do you think that something as simple as cooling or changing the pressure in the cylinder has been overlooked?  If it was that simple to increase fuel mileage by the amounts claimed, every car maker would be doing it.

think about what you are saying for a second... yes they may have spent many hours figuring out the most efficient way to BUILD an engine but that does NOT make it the most efficient engine by any stretch of your imagination. they spend very little time trying to build a more efficient engine. its NOT what the public wants. the public wants monster SUV's and hummers.
race teams research, design and build more efficient engines, not the automakers that spew out whatever they have convinced the public to want via their feedback loop of television.

there is something fishy here. why is there no braking regeneration in non hybrids? economically viable way to make use of waste heat?  try a sterling or a peltier device...
of course it's that simple, the problem is is that the auto manufacturers don't pay your gas bill or electric bill so they really don't care. they are not interested in spending a couple hundred extra dollars per vehicle in the manufacture if they don't have to.
the computers are not hard to reprogram, i can do it in your garage with a laptop.
again i have to ask you utilitarian if you just talk a lot or if you have ever actually built something. it is clear you don't have much 'hands on' knowledge about automobiles.

google McMullen’s 1959 Opel P-1 Hardtop... 376.59 m.p.g.  IN 1973!!!

Offline Haliburton

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2008, 11:32:40 PM »
hey i have a 1969 opel GT for sale 500 bucks obo


Offline hydrocontrol

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Re: This video pretty much says it all.
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2008, 11:49:39 PM »
think about what you are saying for a second... yes they may have spent many hours figuring out the most efficient way to BUILD an engine but that does NOT make it the most efficient engine by any stretch of your imagination. they spend very little time trying to build a more efficient engine. its NOT what the public wants. the public wants monster SUV's and hummers.
race teams research, design and build more efficient engines, not the automakers that spew out whatever they have convinced the public to want via their feedback loop of television.

What you state is so true... Even then race teams are limited in what they can design and build in order to fit into the 'racing rules'. There are a lot better and efficient engine designs such as the Bourke engine.
http://www.bourke-engine.com/

The auto industry does not want to build more efficient engines. Not in their interest as it would 'cost them money' and it would cost their bed buddies the oil companies in less revenue from selling less gas. Not going to happen in the US for awhile. Now maybe a country like Japan that has to import almost all their oil..  Oh wait.. they are producing more efficient engines and hybrids as well. Too bad the US auto makers can not get a clue. Maybe they will get a clue after all their sales go flat but then the government will likely bail them out. A shame..

 

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