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Author Topic: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator  (Read 41698 times)

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2008, 10:59:26 PM »
@Tinu,

Glad we got the cross culture issues sorted. No offense taken or meant.

The current is not milliamps for an effective work function of 0.15.

total current flowing in the disk in the design is 10,000+amps, given a surface area of the rotor (domestic unit 150cm dia) of 5000cm2 this equates to a few amps per cm2 which is way less that 300K thermionic emission. However the rotor temperature drops to a point of equilibrium where heat in (case radiative transfer etc) is equal to rotor current by work done (say 0.15ev).

Interestingly the device is self governing for if it spins too fast the effective work function goes to zero and thus no work can be done and so the disk receives no further torque, nifty eh?

Regards to my friend Tinu

Phil

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2008, 10:59:26 PM »

Offline Sprocket

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 07:21:36 AM »
Hi.  Just visited your site - amazing invention if it pans out and goes into production. (important that!)  Also, got a chuckle reading that you are "coming over from the Dark Side", having worked extensively for bigoil and its cohorts in the past :)

One or two layman's questions if I may:

1. Why is the 50KW unit much smaller than the domestic 3KW one - is it just a better design or is there more involved?
2. My crummy math tells me that the 3KW unit would rotate at about 4000RPM - do you know would the self-power aspect kick in before this, and at what point would it 'self-govern'?
3. If the 4000RPM is correct, and given the much smaller diameter of the 50KW unit, to achieve the same 300m/sec edge-speed and then produce almost 20 times the power output suggests that it is rotating insanely fast - what would its speed actually be?

Thanks.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 08:21:09 PM »
Hi Sprocket and folks,

The 50kw unit operating at up to 1200K and thus its transfer of energy in is 256x the ambient unit so for just 1 square meter of radiative transfer (case to rotor) we get more than 50kw (in fact closer to 100kw). Of course the conversion efficiency is still beyond theoretical carnot as the unit does not dump heat to an exhaust.

It is suited to take any hot gas, including compressed air, solar or even fissionable material and also is suited to use in conjunction with other devices to get that higher temp energy by heat pumping.

Now this is the really amazing thing, if a heat pump is driven by the unit and the unit is 99% efficient the energy from ambient plus the energy driving the heat pump both supply the near perfect efficiency unit therefore....Yes we can raise ambient to whatever we need!

This is not so easy to understand but if you draw a diagram you will see what I mean.

We have received good news from government who look like they are taking the device very seriously.

The device and science is the real thing and they are beginning to see that.

Watch this space, really big things are going to happen.

Might I ask readers to spread the news so the thermionic revolution becomes like wildfire.

Yes the large low power ambient unit spins at 3000-3600rpm to match existing ac grid. Overunity operation is designed to begin at about 5% below operational speed. As you can appreciate the effective work function drops at the square of velocity so there is a fairly tight band between starting to produce significant power and operational speed and overspeed where output torque falls back to zero.

This is why it is very handy to have grid supply to get the unit up to design speed, it requires absolutely no control circuitry.

Hope that clarifies things

Phil

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 08:21:09 PM »
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Offline tak22

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 09:17:52 PM »
Phil,

Thanks for coming here and keeping us informed of your progress, and I hope you find a government somewhere that is willing to take on an active role. It's one of the modern mysteries why more governments at all levels don't take a more hands on approach, and just sit back and complain about big issues just like most of their citizens. Must be the prevalent gov/business disfunction.

You stated that you're giving this tech free to anyone in the world, but the gotcha appears that we have to wait until we can purchase a unit. Do you see this tech evolving to a point that we can build (with really good tools), or contract out the construction?

Also, about the 10:1 sharp points, do you see nanoscale surfaces being used?

tak

Offline Kator01

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 12:38:09 AM »
Hello Philip,

some tome ago I did research on tungsten-welding-rods and found this information which ist of importance to this subject here :

http://huntingdonfusion.com/HFT/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=11

Now I will attach a gernan brochure here of this product called Multistrike-Electrode ( does not contain radioactive Thorium)  because it gives more details on the property of this material which ist not listed in the englisch website of huntingdonfusion.com.

I have makred the relevant information in the attached pic.

The english term "work-funktion" egals the german tern "Austrittsarbeit"
Wolfram = tungsten.

As you can see the offer a tungsten alloy with a work-funktion of 2.9 eV

Hope that this is of interest here.

Best Regards

Kator


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 12:38:09 AM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 10:58:35 AM »
Hi All,

Firstly @tak22,

Hi, I am happy to have accepted your invitation.

I had a good conversation with tinu and others.

As to your questions.

I do not know how hard or simple rotor production may be.

It may be that a carbon nanotube deposition or micro crystalline diamond done by simple cvd may do the trick.

It may also be possible to knurl the pattern on if a small Tungsten carbide impression roller was laser cut. It might cost $10,000 but allow a 100 rotors to be patterned.

I am a physicist and do not pretend to know enough about metallurgy etc.

My view is that once a proof of concept is done and in the affirmative, and I honestly cannot see a failure (that is not to say there won?t be potential adjustments or rethinks on commercial designs), then good people like those here can gear up to make them for their town.

Like we said there is no royalty but that does not stop people charging for their work and hopefully governments will give you grants to aid local production.

So the bottom line is that this is a revolution that needs to grow big but then it will spread to workshops across the world.

Now to Kator01,

Hi, I do know of a number of doped tungsten surfaces and some other complex surfaces that even go down to about 0.8ev.

such is how tantalizing this is that mankind has gotten close but can never get a result whilst thinking in the limited terms of the past.

To me rotational thermionics liberates mankind as we can use ordinary materials in an extraordinary way.

Now one last thing to all and I will offer this to TAK22, if you contact me at pjhardcastle@hotmail.com (a temp email address) I will pass to you an article I have been writing for a science magazine)

It has some good stuff about a proof that the second is violated (or perhaps it might be said that part of the second does not apply) and it has a very good diagram about a vacuum manifold for electrons that adds a lot to the understanding of the unit and simplifies analysis.

So if you can post some bits to this website it would be appreciated. Not all though as it is many pages long and it is might upset the mag if you print all of it prior to the mag issue date.

Regards to all


Offline tinu

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 10:16:27 PM »
@ Phil,

Thanks ...and I hope that our conversation is not over.

I?m silent because I still waiting for more info to digest. I couldn?t find good relevant literature about Tolman. There are issues I still disagree. For instance, to me the device is clearly a thermodynamic machine: it transfers heat from the rotor to the stator/armature. There is always a hot source and a cold source. If the cold source does not maintain its temperature (i.e. cooling is not enough) its temperature will simply increase up to the point when thermionic emission from the armature will balance and eventually will exceed the thermionic emission from the rotor. Same if the rotor is not heated: it will cool down up to the point when machine stops.

In essence, so far I agree the device may work as a thermodynamic machine either in normal mode (heat to work conversion) as well as in reverse mode (refrigeration). But in this respect, Carnot is still the king unless otherwise proved; hence I can not buy the overunity aspect as of yet. I can?t wait to see the proof but in the absence of it my education holds me back of being optimistic.

The other major issue is the one I don?t believe such a machine will be built soon (if ever) without solid proofs of evidence and rigorous calculus. We speak about a massive rotor perfectly balanced, rotating in high vacuum at very high speeds (possibly insufficient, though) and also there are many other engineering challenges (needle array, surface requirements, purity etc). I don?t say the device in its entirety it?s pure heresy but at least breaking the large problem in smaller steps is something logical that, imho, may and should be done long before moving toward and before getting to the final setup. For instance, a 1cm2 of whatever non-consumable metal/alloy/substance giving a thermionic current on several A at 300K is something I?d like to see proved before moving further. That in itself would have a tremendous impact, being a huge improvement. Unfortunately, at this stage all I can say is that it can not be done according to my experience.

Best regards,
Tinu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 10:16:27 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2008, 03:30:20 AM »
Hi tinu,

Taking the overall view of your comment I would say that you believe

if it has not been done then it cannot be done.

I would answer, well this whole forum should close down! surely everyone here is hoping that imagination with science is better than conservatism with no imagination.

There is a scientific method but it is far from perfect. We burnt at the stake thinkers of old who suggested their peers were wrong.

You obviously had a good education and i am sure you hold a degree or two but....
what is education for, to play it safe regurgitating what your professor told you.

Or is education about showing people how to think.

Of course you should be sceptical in science, question everything (including waht you have been taught and what you think you know).

Only when you can look at a hypothesis with a mind free of prejudice can you arrive at an impartial judgment.

As to the device, it will work if it is a question of popular vote. I have 5 votes from top flight scientists that it should work, about 10 votes from top flight scientists that say it may or may not work and that building it is the only way. About 100 votes from forum readers who say I want to build my own. About 20 votes from scientists who say it cannot work because of the second law. I have myself that has spent thousands of hours trying to find a flaw. Government officals who say it is so promising that it deserves a panel of experts to judge it. A Billionaire that wanted to own it to make himself even richer and about a handful of people who are posting comments about me including that I am a nutter, I do not exist and that it is a scam thought they are not sure because I am not asking for any money.

Ohh and then Tinu there is you.

A friend and a sceptic.

Well i respect your viewpoint but ask..

If you thought I was right would you tell everyone you knew?

would you tell everyone on this site to get behind me?

All I am doing is trying to do good. If I thought I was wrong or if someone had shown me I was wrong I would not be here. I don?t need all the stress of arguing day after day.

I am doing this like I said before, because Tak22 asked me to and because I believe it is my moral obligation to say what I believe to be true if that belief then leads to a way of helping prevent starvation etc.

So respectfully tinu, I ask you to look again at this thing and also to buy the next nexus magazien where they have given me a 6 page spread.

Also I sent a draft (a few errors in there) of a mag article i wrote, perhaps you can ask him to post the vacuum return diagram as it dispells your belief of the collector heating up....because the collector is the backside of the emitter. I am sure you will appreciate the beauty of it if Kator1 posts it.

Anyhow

To all at overunity

It has been fun

I wish you all well

You are all good guys 8including my friend tinu)

Lets all work together for mankind.

P.S if you believe me then spread the word of the Thermionic revolution.

Tell friends, tv, radio, papers professors and sceptics

We just want a debate and then we want action.

Philip J Hardcastle

The thermionic downunder man

Offline tinu

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2008, 08:37:43 PM »
If you thought I was right would you tell everyone you knew?

I'd surely do, my friend!
No doubt about it.

(Pls have a look at this thread: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3086.0.html I was probably wrong but it hopefully proves the point)

Cheers,
Tinu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2008, 08:37:43 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2008, 09:22:39 PM »
Hi All,

I thought it may help if I post a single elecfrode version as it goes a long way to simplify the issues.

(in cross section)

The disc is mechanically connected to a drive shaft. We show on the left-hand side the current flow through the disc, and on the right-hand side the magnetic field intersecting the disc. At the top of the
mechanical shaft is an AC motor/generator connected to mains AC power.
So now, instead of the electrons just colliding with the inner surface and creating heat, we use the emf generated at the outer surface to draw electrons through the disc and thus through the magnetic
field, causing a motor effect (i.e., torque is induced). This conversion of current to torque is established fact in physics.
As the flow of electrons is being choked (i.e., the flow rate is being restricted) by the magnetic field, the electrons at the inner surface are now absorbed at a controlled rate and thus do not cause much (if any) heating. So all the cooling of the disc at the outer surface is being converted to torque.
To get the disc up to a speed where the thermionic work function is sufficiently reduced to make a significant current flow, we spin the disc using a mains synchronous motor/generator.

The disk as stated before needs micromachining however if we had a metal that could stand a tip speed of 10,000m/s it could be smooth.

At 10,000M/s the effective work function is reduced by approx 5ev so for a metal of work function 5.15ev we would be in a nice operating region (thermionic current of amps per cm squared)


At approximately 10,000 m/s (if there were a metal strong enough), we reduce the effective work function of a common metal to 0.15 eV. At 0.15 eV and at room temperature, a large number of electrons will escape into vacuum. Now they end up doing 0.15 eV of work to get to vacuum,
and in vacuum they are mostly exhausted. The work they did to get to vacuum is now available as an electromotive force in the disc to draw electrons past the magnetic intersection and thus convert current times emf into mechanical torque (then to drive the AC generator).
But as said before, the electron at the outside is going faster than on the inside so
we need to deduct, from the 0.15 eV work done, the energy needed to get a replacement electron up to 10,000 m/s.
Using the kinetic energy expression 1/2 mv2, we get 1/2 x 9.109E-31 x 10,000 x
10,000 = 4.55E-23 joules (m = mass; v = velocity; E = exponent base 10).
The work done by the electron in escaping the outer surface is 0.15 eV x 1.602E-19 = 2.4E-20 joules.
So, dividing 2.4E-20 by 4.55E-23 gives 527x. This simply means that the energy used to get the replacement electron up to speed is 527 times less than the work it can do to generate electricity. QED! Overunity

As stated before we will need to make the disc with sharp points for operation at more realistic 316m/s.

Regard to Tak22, Tinu and all.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2008, 09:28:06 PM »
My apologies to all,

It is 5.30am here and when I posted I cut and pasted bits froma draft article.

When I read it now it is a bit mixed up and with some gaps.

Tak22 has more info so he can answer questions.

Goodnight all zzzz

Phil H

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2008, 09:28:06 PM »
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Offline ceres

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2008, 10:31:47 PM »
@all,

What is the reason why the concept is supposed NOT to work?

I ask this question instead of the skeptics question why the concept is supposed to work.

Tell me and I will think again.

Kind regards to all,

Ceres

Offline Kator01

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2008, 08:50:53 PM »
Hello Philip,

you mentioned in your answer to my post :

Now to Kator01,

Hi, I do know of a number of doped tungsten surfaces and some other complex surfaces that even go down to about 0.8ev.

Can you please tell the community what kind of doped tungsten you know which go down to 0.8 eV and give a hint what company is selling this product ?

It might be of importance in another thread.

Thank you

Kator01

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2008, 01:09:31 PM »
Hi All,

Just popped in to tell you that we have the Nexus article to read at www.thermionicrevolution.com

We have had some very interesting conversations with people who wish to get more details.

We will be providing as much information as we can in the near future.

If anyone here knows of a news site or newspaper, or newspaper reporter that would give us some publicity to get more debate going we would appreciate it.

We need governments to be embarrassed into action by your making this a hot topic that they cannot ignore.

Thanks to Z.Monkey for his help.

Regards Phil H

Offline ceres

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Re: Hardcastle/Solomon Thermionic Generator
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2008, 02:12:46 PM »
Hello Philip,

Talking about bearings and high speed revolutions, this is what you might be in need of. High speed bearings: have a look at:

http://www.miti.cc/

Just an idea for development.

Good Luck,

Ceres

 

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