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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: zenarrow on June 18, 2008, 08:33:47 PM

Title: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 18, 2008, 08:33:47 PM
I wont say alot here about it, as it's past 4am now.
It came to me tonight, and I was almost in a trance of deep thought putting it together.

I have an image to upload. It is from a few ideas of the Hydrogen Fuel cell with the motor cycle ENV. But unlike theirs this also uses a self charging system, but allows for removal the the CELL UNIT to be maintained, while replaced by another charged up ready to go.

When I have some sleep I will post more information about how it works.
I think it really is something worthy exploring.
Brown's gas I read about in the 80's. He used it as a torch to weld an iron bar and a brick together, and could run his hand through the flame with water condensing on the surface of his hand.
When it ignited in a cylinder, it turned to water. And in fact sucked the pistons. So instead of firing near Top Dead Centre, the pistons needed to fire near Bottom Dead Centre. The exhaust was water, so needed to be drained off (at least in my mind when I read about it) meaning the engine would have to be mounted upside down (but it might come out under the pressure or some other way) indead of inverting the whole design of the engine. Likewise the intake would have to be before the piston when down, so also be near TDC, with clearence for the valves of course.

This came to me when examining ZeroFossilFuel's youtube videos about making your on HHO as an additive to the engine. The rates of 3 litres a minute seemed large to me. So I did some calcs on a spread sheet to get a ball park figure for around 16 miles a gallon gasoline (petrol where I come from). Roughly speaking 15 miles per gallon worked out to be about 0.25 litres a minute. This meant that 2.5 litres of HHO was being wasted if it could do the same job if injected as proper fuel. This means that the current needed, which was some astronomical amount aover 30 amps, could not be less than 1/10th for efficiency. So 3 amps is very doable as a standard car accessory. And makes it all seem so easy to fit together. Of course the cams need to be redone, the EFI and other circuitry and sensors designed and tweaked for best mixtures and quantities for supply and demand. And the low pressure resevoir I have there is just to act like a capaciter does, to filter the lumps of the flow as it were. So if supply fall behind demand, there is at least 10 seconds or so worth to keep it going.

So heres the image...


cheers

ZenArrow
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: z.monkey on June 18, 2008, 09:21:22 PM
Howdy ZenArrow,

Implosion Engine huh?  Excellent Idea!  I can see how these epiphanies are coming out of the woodwork.  The information is being distributed mentally and when we receive our particular mission it is given to us in a dream, an epiphany, or revelation.  I usually get epiphanies when I am doing strenuous labor, like yard work.

A two stoke motor would work good as a implosion engine.  On the intake stroke the HHO is drawn into the cylinder.  Just after the BDC mark the plug fires, the implosion occurs, and the piston is drawn to the cylinder head.  Around TDC a special valve opens momentarily and drains the water out of the inverted cylinder.  Then the intake valve opens again to draw in more HHO.  Genius!

There might be a better way to this.  The reciprocating engine is fairly inefficient, if you could figure out a way to do this with a turbine you could produce more power per pound.  Like if you were to take a gas turbine electric generator and convert it to do HHO implosion.  Like say move the igniters from what is normally the combustion chamber to south of the turbo section.  This way the implosion is happening on the other side of the turbo from where the explosion normally is.  This would suck air through the turbo to drive the compressor.

Good Idea Zen Arrow!

Blessed Be Brother...
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: Jokker on June 18, 2008, 09:28:44 PM
There is too much told  :o
Too much text to read so i cant get whole idea.

Also u should tell about pressure in intake, coz liquid H2 is 778 times x dense that gas H2.
I cant still get why u need ENV system... But i guess its due engine work cycle and increasing effectivity.

I guess it is useless reply  :P
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 04:52:43 AM
Also u should tell about pressure in intake, coz liquid H2 is 778 times x dense that gas H2.
I cant still get why u need ENV system... But i guess its due engine work cycle and increasing effectivity.

The ENV refers the the motorcycle, as I saw on Beyond Tomorrow, TV show in Australia, which used to be called Towards 2000, and then Beyond 2000. LOL. it evolves ;)

Here is a link to the cycle. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8228479/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8228479/).

I am not sure if it is vacuum implosion or not. I loved the idea of it when I saw it a couple of years ago, and thought it would be great around the city where I live. (My old GSX750 is having some age problems and needs something to keep it young again, maybe some hydrogen HHO ;) )

The ENV has a cell which is removable, but it is rather large.

It seems to me my idea diagram above, is similar, but their is to keep things light, and to make money from filling it with hydrogen. Actually my original impression was it was an electric bike, based on electricity from a hydrogen cell input. But I am not sure on that.

My concepts came together with knowledge from the old Grass Roots magazine in Australia in the 80's had an article on Dr Brown, (I think he had German roots) and Brown's gas. In fact most of the idea is his as he was achieveing the implosion engine (from memory). This gas turns back into water when ignited and needs to drain off. (at least that is the idea in my memory). My mind seems to start creating imaginations from inputs, which is probably not uncommon in this environment of people here. At school it gets you beat up. lol.

Brown was saying that most people who work on water and splitting H and O end up with explosions. He said the most stable combination was as HHO, and it could stand some compression storage. But still was the most unstable part with great hazard potential.

I will do a proper addition to my original post of explanation.
Hey these days youtube is also a great way to express ideas. I love the visual aids factor.
ZeroFossilFuel has some great videos of his step by step procedures for DYI HHO and others.

Cheers

ZenArrow
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 05:13:47 AM

A two stoke motor would work good as a implosion engine.  On the intake stroke the HHO is drawn into the cylinder.  Just after the BDC mark the plug fires, the implosion occurs, and the piston is drawn to the cylinder head.  Around TDC a special valve opens momentarily and drains the water out of the inverted cylinder.  Then the intake valve opens again to draw in more HHO.  Genius!


I think the CAM modifications to a 4 stroke engine would also need to include the cog ratio's of the chain driven cams. With double overhead cams (DOHC) common these days (my old GSX750 might become a prototype yet ;) ) this means it is easy to modify than doing a cam from scratch. As the intake and outlet cams are separate and can be positioned. The cog mod would be to make it into a 2 stroke engine using a standard 4 stroke.

There is a lot of toying with this idea yet. But I do believe the principle is sound.

To reiterate the principles combined.
1. Brown's Gas and the implosive engine idea
2. HHO DYI by ZeroFossilFuel as a secondary fuel source to supplement stand Gasoline
3. The HHO desired 3.5 litres a minute seemed to be losing potential
4. Realization that 15 M/p/gal of gasoline is at 60mph is only around 0.25 litres a minute.(if I am wrong on this I apologize, it was a 2am calculation)

As Dr Brown's implosion engine principle is that ignited Brown's gas becomes the opposite of the steam effect. Where steam expands to over 1000 times the water used, Browns Gas becoming water again, creates a vacuum when it becomes 1000th of what it was as an expanded gas mixture.

This might also explain why the 3.5 litres desired HHO generated on the fly with astronomical amperages over 30 amps @ 12 VDC is in fact highly an inefficient use of the MPG, or LPM (Litres Per Minute). So hence the reduction of the litres from say 3.5 to 0.35 is a factor of 1/10th, and hence the current if near linear would be about 1/10th, from 35 amps (for round figures) to 3.5 amps, making it a figure I am happy with. Those high amps just scared the hell out of me. lol. So much heat losses etc.

On the other hand, it may well be that the gas is imploding somewhat, and that is the reason why over 3 litres of HHO is required as a supplemental fuel source to the gasoline (I'm Aussie and just can't find myself saying Gas, as here Gas is Natural Gas, LPG or the odd fart ;D ).

Designing an injection system of HHO which may use existing EFI systems with some modifications is probably a major factor in getting this to work. The rest is more or less bolting together everything else, and designing the FEED BACK electronics to regulate it all.

cheers

ZenArrow
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 06:23:35 AM
Just to show some "thinking progress" to the ultra newbies.

I am working on an animation.
I am using an old version of (7) of Paint Shop Pro as I have had it for many years.
I use layers to put each main component on, and then can turn off all the irrelevant layers.
Layers is great for being able to move images without interfering with other images.
I then use the accompanying Animation Workshop to create an animated gif using  still image jpgs from the original PSP format file.
Here is a 4 image animation of the basic piston rotation.

Later animation images to allow comparison will include...
1. standard 4 stroke firing with valves timings
2. modified 4 stroke to 2 stroke firing with valves timings mods for implosion vacuum firing.

Incidentally I also have Ulead 11, Video Studio, which will import gifs straight into it, to save as mpg or others like wvm formats to upload to YouTube.

I have a channel I am working on for this called UnityEnergy, which is very new, but will have updates when I am done.

cheers

ZenArrow
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 19, 2008, 06:34:14 AM
Good observation!

I noticed it during a flashback from a torch to the bubbler which was not full enough.

It sucked in the sides in like puckered cheeks and the torch wouldn't let equalization happen fast enough.

I know H2 burns faster than gasoline.

Where would the optimal firing timing be? TDC?

AFTER TDC to deal with the resulting vacuum?

Good topic!
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 06:56:04 AM
Good observation!

I noticed it during a flashback from a torch to the bubbler which was not full enough.

It sucked in the sides in like puckered cheeks and the torch wouldn't let equalization happen fast enough.

I know H2 burns faster than gasoline.

Where would the optimal firing timing be? TDC?

AFTER TDC to deal with the resulting vacuum?

Good topic!

I think that BDC would be best for firing.
1. Intake Valve open at TDC
2. Piston sucks on downward stroke to bring the in the intake
3. Intake Valve closes prior to BDC
4. Fire at BDC
5. Resultant implosion sucks the piston back toward TDC
6. Open exhaust valve prior to TDC by several degrees to get rid of the WATER
7. Close exhaust at TDC. (repeat cycle)

Notes...
A. This would mean a 4 stroke modified to 2 stroke by cam timing mods
B. Cam lobes would probably need modification to be open for longer.
C. The usual engine has higher expanded gas volumes, this is the opposite, so exhaust if done correctly will be a few ml of water, which could be further aided by creating a further vacuum on the exhaust manifold with a pump, so as soon as the exhaust valve is opened it will be sucking out into this manifold.

I am trying to do this without too much modification of an existing 4 stroke internal combustion engine.
But all is relative. It does require, major timing changes, to electrical timing and cams. So if you have an old engine lying around with DOHC, you can fiddle with it.

As to whether 2 stroke or 4 stroke is the ideal end product, I think we would be wasting energy resistance with a 4. But a STANDARD 2 stroke petroleum (gasoline) engine would not work that I have thought about, thinking of motorcycles, as they use piston timing to open up ports by the piston itself. Perhaps a diesel two stroke will work, as they have the valves like 4 strokes, but I have not had anything to do with diesels, I will leave that to others. My idea here is to use a simple 4 stroke engine you may have laying around to more easily do these modifications for the backyard mechanical guy who has some electrical knowledge.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 19, 2008, 07:12:12 AM
I think that BDC would be best for firing.
1. Intake Valve open at TDC
2. Piston sucks on downward stroke to bring the in the intake
3. Intake Valve closes prior to BDC
4. Fire at BDC
5. Resultant implosion sucks the piston back toward TDC
6. Open exhaust valve prior to TDC by several degrees to get rid of the WATER
7. Close exhaust at TDC. (repeat cycle)

Notes...
A. This would mean a 4 stroke modified to 2 stroke by cam timing mods
B. Cam lobes would probably need modification to be open for longer.
C. The usual engine has higher expanded gas volumes, this is the opposite, so exhaust if done correctly will be a few ml of water, which could be further aided by creating a further vacuum on the exhaust manifold with a pump, so as soon as the exhaust valve is opened it will be sucking out into this manifold.

I am trying to do this without too much modification of an existing 4 stroke internal combustion engine.
But all is relative. It does require, major timing changes, to electrical timing and cams. So if you have an old engine lying around with DOHC, you can fiddle with it.

As to whether 2 stroke or 4 stroke is the ideal end product, I think we would be wasting energy resistance with a 4. But a STANDARD 2 stroke petroleum (gasoline) engine would not work that I have thought about, thinking of motorcycles, as they use piston timing to open up ports by the piston itself. Perhaps a diesel two stroke will work, as they have the valves like 4 strokes, but I have not had anything to do with diesels, I will leave that to others. My idea here is to use a simple 4 stroke engine you may have laying around to more easily do these modifications for the backyard mechanical guy who has some electrical knowledge.


I'm not sure the engine can stand that type of hammering.

What I mean is, the explosion does have a energy output, even if not compressed.

It's just going to expend itself trying to push the crankshaft down below its lowest point?
It might be enough force to defeat the layer of oil that is the bearing and allowing surfaces to touch and wear.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but where is the explosion potential being used?
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 07:26:24 AM
I'm not sure the engine can stand that type of hammering.

What I mean is, the explosion does have a energy output, even if not compressed.

It's just going to expend itself trying to push the crankshaft down below its lowest point?
It might be enough force to defeat the layer of oil that is the bearing and allowing surfaces to touch and wear.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but where is the explosion potential being used?

Having not actually experimented with these things, I am only using theory from things I have read.
As far as I have read, the ignition of HHO (Brown's Gas) in a sealed cylinder, does not explode. It implodes. So it creates a vacuum. The gas becomes water. The opposite of creating steam in principle, from what I understand. What happens to the flames etc I am not sure either. I was under the impression Dr Brown did have an engine running from it.

So it would in theory run cool by it's own conversion. It should run quietly as it is not exploding.

Perhaps an idea to test it is to create a sealed container with a spark plug going into it. Kinda like the bubbler of pvc, but sealed. However it must keep the zeal the whole time or else other air coming in might make it explode if it ruptures from the vacuum. Maybe just a good old ORCHY bottle dude ;)
Something which will take the flex and not rupture. Put spark plug in the cap and tap it on. Ignite it and see what happens and report back your findings. Maybe the standard 2 litre milk container will do nicely, it's got lots of flex. DO BE CAREFUL! Please do not hold me responsible for any lapses in judgement. Make sure no air gets in their till after it has ignited and sat there for a little while, just to be sure.

Peace, be well, and for God's sake, think ahead.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 07:45:24 AM
I didnt realize how huge that animation was.
I actually find it good to look at while I am visualizing in my mind how these things connect to it.
But hey, each to their own.
Here's the smaller version. Not so easy to reduce the size of a gif with my tools, but the psp and the jpgs is not a problem. This will be the base I will use for the timing animations and explanations.

Feel free do save image as for your own purposes.

Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 19, 2008, 07:49:37 AM
Having not actually experimented with these things, I am only using theory from things I have read.
As far as I have read, the ignition of HHO (Brown's Gas) in a sealed cylinder, does not explode. It implodes. So it creates a vacuum. The gas becomes water. The opposite of creating steam in principle, from what I understand. What happens to the flames etc I am not sure either. I was under the impression Dr Brown did have an engine running from it.

It explodes, and then implodes but the conversion time between expanding and condensing is small and both are very powerful.

So it would in theory run cool by it's own conversion. It should run quietly as it is not exploding.

Perhaps an idea to test it is to create a sealed container with a spark plug going into it. Kinda like the bubbler of pvc, but sealed. However it must keep the zeal the whole time or else other air coming in might make it explode if it ruptures from the vacuum. Maybe just a good old ORCHY bottle dude ;)
Something which will take the flex and not rupture. Put spark plug in the cap and tap it on. Ignite it and see what happens and report back your findings. Maybe the standard 2 litre milk container will do nicely, it's got lots of flex. DO BE CAREFUL! Please do not hold me responsible for any lapses in judgement. Make sure no air gets in their till after it has ignited and sat there for a little while, just to be sure.

Peace, be well, and for God's sake, think ahead.

Well, I've done those types (not those exactly) experiments and only once was I able to induce a flashback through the torch to the bubbler to see the effect of the vacuum.
It's tricky since you have to get the gas amount just right to not exploded the plastic bottle.

But this is something I've always wondered about since the explode/condense cycle happens so quickly if the use of HHO isn't robbing itself of generated power because the stroke cycle in a piston engine is too long.

Just a thought I had.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 08:12:22 AM
It explodes, and then implodes but the conversion time between expanding and condensing is small and both are very powerful.

Well, I've done those types (not those exactly) experiments and only once was I able to induce a flashback through the torch to the bubbler to see the effect of the vacuum.
It's tricky since you have to get the gas amount just right to not exploded the plastic bottle.

But this is something I've always wondered about since the explode/condense cycle happens so quickly if the use of HHO isn't robbing itself of generated power because the stroke cycle in a piston engine is too long.

Just a thought I had.

Very very interesting.
I am optomistic that balance of mixtures, valve intake time, and electrical timing, along with the combination of electronics feedback tuning will have a fine tuning effect.

I once saw someone with a crook fuel pump on a V8, have a very large vegemite jar of petrol held near the throat of the carbie (fuel filter assembly removed), and it sucked the fuel from the jar into the carbie, by a balance of just not tipping it, but on the edge point of tipping it in. The sucking of the engine sucked it in and revived the engine. In a way we were like being the carbie with our angles mixing it so to speak. Crude, but worked. But in far need of tuning for efficiency. For too much, and it back fired, and just missed igniting what my friend was holding in his hand. Boys and their toys ;)

So back to your experiments, did the mixture expand then implode? or did it just implode? And was it perfectly sealed from any other air?

For the stroke being too long, as you brought up, perhaps, opening valves for short times, to give only a minor amount in the cyclinder. Since this is more volatile in its power than petroleum, perhaps it doesnt need as much as would be mixed through the carbie, and the duration length of the intake valves cycle?

It's a bit of a balance, effect, but so is the modern carbie.

Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 09:43:41 AM
I have done more research on this with google about Dr Yul Brown, with "Dr Brown Brown's Gas Water" as the search. There is a lot there.

He was a Bulgerian born physicist which worked on heavy water, and came up with a lot of experiments and devices. From blow torch. 1 litre of water makes 1360 litres of brown gas.


Heres a link to the main homepage of what seems to be the follow on of his work as an independant website... http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgashome.html (http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgashome.html)


Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: Jokker on June 19, 2008, 10:39:43 AM
U can find about water electrolysis at
http://www.hydrogen.asn.au/hydrogen-technical-calculations.htm

I calculated and u will get from 1 l of water about 0,5 l of liquid hydrogen.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 12:43:53 PM
U can find about water electrolysis at
http://www.hydrogen.asn.au/hydrogen-technical-calculations.htm

I calculated and u will get from 1 l of water about 0,5 l of liquid hydrogen.

arh my friend, this is not about hydrogen, it is about HHO also called Brown's gas.
It implodes when burnt in a sealed container like a piston. The design of the Internal Combustion Engine turned on it's head so to speak. To much explodes, the right amount, should give a manageable implosion vacuum.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 12:53:56 PM
A YouTube Video about it... I did have another link to Dr Brown, but the sound was atrocious.

This explains the gas, and how it ignites and other details...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lABkJi94LJA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lABkJi94LJA&feature=related)
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: Jokker on June 19, 2008, 02:17:16 PM
arh my friend, this is not about hydrogen, it is about HHO also called Brown's gas.
It implodes when burnt in a sealed container like a piston. The design of the Internal Combustion Engine turned on it's head so to speak. To much explodes, the right amount, should give a manageable implosion vacuum.

I guess im wrong but...
It seems that electrolysis output is hydrogen and oxygen ( separated ) then u are pushing this mixture true water and u are getting another element ? No way Maybe trick is that the content balance changes so u can get more energy out of burning it.

Browns Gas Generators
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCuI9IWfZ4&feature=related

I guess the trick is that u can use electrical energy in more effective way for heat. But yea u need some water also.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 19, 2008, 03:34:08 PM
I guess im wrong but...
It seems that electrolysis output is hydrogen and oxygen ( separated ) then u are pushing this mixture true water and u are getting another element ? No way Maybe trick is that the content balance changes so u can get more energy out of burning it.

Browns Gas Generators
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCuI9IWfZ4&feature=related

I guess the trick is that u can use electrical energy in more effective way for heat. But yea u need some water also.

The Browns gas is hydrogen and oxygen, but not seperated into two parts.
The video I pointed to above in youtube, explains it better. It also points out this can melt a brick into a glass like structure, ignite tunstan, but can't boil water. It says the electricity going into the water to create the gas HHO is also part of the energy in it. So water does not have the same effect when trying to boil as it disipates the electrical factor of the gas in flame. (strange concept, but his words). Yet the metal is highly conductive and melts straight away. And then the flame on the skin, does not burn at first either. The surface of the things it melts or cuts have water condensation deposits on it.

He also points out (there are 3 videos in the group) that there are at least 3 ways of this gas forming. As monoatomic (one molecule HHO) or diatomic (two separated gases), and if it is left in the sun in a clear container, it goes back to diatomic. Diatomic pops louder as hydrogen is separate to the oxygen. Where as there is another version he speculates is ionized, and gives more electrical charge and energy when used. Though that is being experimented with others for running cars etc.

It's all a research potential here.

He says you can flame polish rough quartz, and make precious looking stones by heating them. This is using the flame blow torch type use.

An application on youtube is using it for deep diving, where as they used helium and you get the squeaky voice and become intoxicated like drunks. HHO seems to be good for it, as well as coming up quickly without the bends. It is really a facinating thing to know more about.

I have only been rekindled with the idea since I saw ZeroFossilFuels videos on making your own HHO as a fuel supplement. My ideas have been jumping around. It has been very exhilerating.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: sportcoupe on June 19, 2008, 05:50:14 PM
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 20, 2008, 01:03:49 AM
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

I am not sure on the wankle engine.

There are other things about this HHO gas, being used for many things recently.
Some people are going off the grid, running their generators on it.
The vacuum implosion idea seems to be an older idea.
I have seen many saying that they can run it normally with only mixture modifications.

One guy has a plasma cutter, runs a generator on it, runs a gas heater on it, runs his kitchen stove on it, and hs gone off the grid for electricity, making it all with Brown's gas. Other things I have seen, this is all since starting this thread, say that it must be stored in an opaque container, as clear in the sunlight makes it unstable, converting it into diatomic instead of the monatomic compound of HHO. HHO as Brown's gas as ONE molecule is very stable apparently and can be stored.

There is also another device I came across which has had the secret guys come around and intimidate him. Which only led him to KNOW that it works when he went to replicate another guys work. I am fairly sure the website said he had stuff on here about it. In fact going public was the way they want this to be patent free given to mankind.

See the following names, the original cell design has tubes within tubes, harmonically tuned by tone, to bring in a resonance effect more so than plates of the HHO cells which people are putting in their cars. See the Ravi Stanley Meyer Replication water fuel cell. (I would give links to websites, but that would make the secret intimidators job too easy for them, with them using this forum as a guide to shutdown people's work)

They were even using this for deep sea diving, which didnt have the side effects of the bends and coming up slow to avoid them.

Others are saying they are drinking water which has had this gas pass through it, and getting the energy like from a cup of coffee without the side effects.

Since H2O is part of our diet (water) it might be no so surprising that it regenerates healing better. All from recent research online.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 20, 2008, 02:05:59 AM
Very very interesting.
I am optomistic that balance of mixtures, valve intake time, and electrical timing, along with the combination of electronics feedback tuning will have a fine tuning effect.
<snip>

So back to your experiments, did the mixture expand then implode? or did it just implode? And was it perfectly sealed from any other air?

Expand and contract. I've blown up bubblers by doing it too.

The entire idea behind a bubbler is to capture any flashback so it will not destroy the HHO generation vessel. It's has a tube from the generation vessel entering from the top side area and continuing to the bottom of the bubbler. It's filled at least 3/4 of the way with water to prevent a "string" of bubbles from being able to support ignition PAST the water so the flashback (if any) does not go past that point and ignite the generation chamber. Then the gas bubbling up through the water goes to where you want to use it.

You need to go to YouTube and search for "HHO bubbler (or flashback)" and see the work that's being done in this area. It will give you a more complete understanding of HHO properties.

It is airtight to contain the HHO on it's way to its destination where it is usually used for it's explosive force.

This is why when I had my tiny aperture torch i was able to capture the vacuum effect in the bubbler.

For the stroke being too long, as you brought up, perhaps, opening valves for short times, to give only a minor amount in the cyclinder. Since this is more volatile in its power than petroleum, perhaps it doesnt need as much as would be mixed through the carbie, and the duration length of the intake valves cycle?

It's a bit of a balance, effect, but so is the modern carbie.

At higher RPM the storke cycle is probably fast enough to benefit from vacuum, but at low RPM the stroke is taking a lot longer and at that point robbing you of 1/2 the motive force at least IMHO.

I suggest the YouTube research as it will show you how "explosive" this idea has become lately.

:D
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 20, 2008, 02:09:55 AM
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

It's a good thought and more research has to be done in this area!

Keep thinking!

:D
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 20, 2008, 10:44:23 AM
Some other thoughts...

I'm not sure the engine can stand that type of hammering.

What I mean is, the explosion does have a energy output, even if not compressed.

It's just going to expend itself trying to push the crankshaft down below its lowest point?
It might be enough force to defeat the layer of oil that is the bearing and allowing surfaces to touch and wear.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but where is the explosion potential being used?

I have seen other stuff online since, showing that HHO can be in several forms as monoatomic or diatomic, with monoatomic being the Browns Gas, which still keeps the full ratio of HHO, and diatomic being split into a more unstable mixture instead of the compount. It was stated taht in a clear bottle stored Monoatomic became Diatomic, and is the unstable version prone to explosion.

Now back to the Engine. It seems from a very poor sound recording of Dr Brown, and other research that the internal combustion engine can be run directly on Brown's Gas HHO monoatomic.

This leaves two factors mentioned previous, to be considered. The expansion and the implosion of the gases in the cylinder chamber.
To have the piston timing firing when the piston is on the way from TDC to BDC, so that it fires very near prior to BDC, so that the timing of the "implosion" is at or closely after BDC. Of course with timing adjustments and electronics for speed variation advancing these days, it is possible to tune it for best effect. So that it takes advantage of both the properties. Assuming that it does have an expansion/explosion effect when ignited prior to the implosion effect. From what I saw in a video by an expert who has written a few books on Brown's Gas (which may vary slightly to HHO if the HHO is diatomic and not monoatomic), then from that he does not mention the expansion, only the implosion. A ratio of 1800 into 1, kind of the opposite of steam or the opposite of the expansion process.

So it is very possible there is a flame reaction going into implosion as the gases retract into the water molecule. Which was my original understanding. I really need to do my own lab experimentation research on this. He also talks of a third state of this gas, which he speculates is ionized, and is used by others to run cars on water.

Also...
There is another guy I saw in USA making a cell system to run on 32 plates in series with 120VAC supplied, with diodes to pulse it. He used this to make a plasma torch for cutting and welding. I also saw in his comments, saying he runs his car and a generator and gas heater all on this save HHO. So does no longer pay for electricity and is off the grid by "water power".
heres his video channel http://www.metacafe.com/channels/cheaphardwarez/ (http://www.metacafe.com/channels/cheaphardwarez/)
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 20, 2008, 10:51:48 AM
Expand and contract. I've blown up bubblers by doing it too.

The bubbler however is not sealed air tight is it?
Where as the cyclinder is with all the valves closed.
This is a major principle see my other post where expansion is not mentioned for the monatomic version of HHO not the diatomic version.
see play list of 3 videos with more info on it at...
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A8E30B5EB87D3A27 (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A8E30B5EB87D3A27)

This sealed unit is a very IMPORTANT difference. Since the bubbler has 2 openings. A piston cylinder is completely sealed.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 21, 2008, 07:13:40 PM
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

Here's an animation I am working on for the final compare...
First here is the 4 stroke engine, the regular one in cars these days, which normally runs gasoline/petroleum (gas/petrol).

Notice it has a 1 to 2 (1:2) ratio for the cams rotations to the crankshaft.

4 Cycles (strokes)
1. Intake
Starting at the top (Top Dead Centre (TDC)) the piston starts towards the bottom, with the intake valve opening, and letting the fuel/air mixture in, the piston act like a pump it sucks in the fuel. The valve closes according to design, usually before the bottom (Bottom Dead Center (BDC)).

2.Compression
The cyclinder is now sealed, and starts to go from BDC towards TDC and compresses the fuel/air mixture.

3. Firing
Just before TDC the spark plug fires, usually a few degrees before TDC, and ignites the fuel/air mixture. The intertia of the flywheel keeps the crankshaft spinning, along with the delay in igniting the fuel and it's burn rate, and gets past TDC before the full expansion occurs, which then drives the piston downwards towards BDC.

4. Exhaust
After BDC the expansion having finished, the piston starts to rise up toward TDC again, and starts to compress the burn up gases (Carbon Monoxide (CO2)) and then it opens the exhaust valve, and the CO2 is released under pressure, as well as with the pumping effect of the piston, pushing it out the exhaust port. The valve closes just prior to TDC ready to take in more fuel/air mixture and the cycle starts all over again.

To maintain an idle speed, it is usually around 250 to 850 RPM (Revolutions Per Minute) Depending on the number of cyclinders. More cyclinders requires less speed to maintain idle speed. Any lower and the engine stalls from not being able to maintain the cycle. Redline (Max Speed) is around 5000 to 6000 RPM, with variations due to make etc. Motorcylces like 250cc usually idle between 1000 to 1250 RPM and often redline at 9,000 to 12,000 RPM. V8 cars often redline at 4500. Though most of these figures are 20 years old and from memory.

Heres the animation...
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/4strokeSlow.gif)
Note the cams here are showing only 4 positions and would normally rotate smoothly.

Heres a faster animation which hides the pulses better with the illusion of animation.
(motion pictures are really still images at 25 to 30 frames per second. ;)

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/4strokeSmooth.gif)

Note that fuel burns at a set rate, so the faster the RPM, the sooner the fuel needs to be ignited. This is called ignition advance. These days they are electronic, in the old days they used points switches on a cam, which would then have weights which would spin outwards to a maximu distance with some variation, moving the points cam (not shown) to advance from typically 4 Degrees BTC (standard) to the fully advanced setting of around 25 Deg BTC. Some even much more.

With HHO additive to standard fuels, as there is much about on the net and in here. The petrol gasoline then burns faster, burning more fuel, making it more efficient. For unburnt fuel ends up in the exhaust pipe, showing a black soot on the plugs coloration.

Note the cam chain is also shown here. Which also requires the cams set for best timing. The lobes on the cam effecting how long the valves are open and closed. Hence high performance cams get more power again. There is always a balance between fuel enconomy and power. HHO gives more power as an additive.

The eventual idea here is to run the whole engine on HHO, then the oil companies will not be so happy, for they seem to want to make lots of money as soon as possible, and don't care about the environment consequences. Even now they are drilling for more oil, while the rest of the world is saying go green.

It is possible to run most of your fuel in home and car, from cooking to heating, all from HHO, Brown's Gas. The technology just needs to be established to be off the shelf. But there are many do it yourself kits about for many aspect of utlizing it. Look about the net and videos channels many are showing how to do it with off the shelve bits from the hardware store.

Note these are DOHC (double overhead cams) engines. And allows for easy timing changes of cams on a work bench. Usually the cogs on the cams are twice the size of the cog on the crankshaft for the 1:2 ratio of cam 1 rev to the cranks 2 revs. An old motocycle engine would be good as well.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 21, 2008, 07:48:24 PM
Here's another idea of using Brown's Gas with a petrol driven generator. Technically an alternator for mains power. Though I would hesitate about the noise of a generator running all the time. But perhaps sound proofing these into an enclosure like a freezer box might be the next phase.

Basically...
1. Is just a power switch panel which turns the battery circuit on give power to the Brown's Gas Electrolyser Cell, as well as other switches which allow the charge cirucuit to the battery, and the kill switch for the motor.

2. The good old 12VDC battery from a Car, which provides the powr to the HHO Cell (Brown's Gas) on demand.

3. The Brown's Gas Electrolyser Cell

4. The Gas Manifold and bubbler etc to make it compatible to the petrol/gasoline engine

5. The engine unit with the alternator attached as one unit from the store.

6. The alternator coupled to the engine in one unit (5)

7. The mains output power (240VAC Australia or 110VAC USA) which goes to output and back to the charging circuit to keep the system going, which should go until it breaks down from lack of maintenance ;)

8. Step down transformer from mains power to 12 VDC to recharge the battery

9. The 12VDC charger circuit

10. The wall outlet plug socket for you appropriate country's power system (power point)

This should run forever, with maintenance stops. It is the goal.
To put the unit in a sound proof encloser, and to have it so it creates more gas on demand to drive gas heaters and cooking stove. It would be a lucritative little business setting these up as DYI kits, when it gets perfects. Solar power might also be a good supplement, as wear and tare on an engine running 24/7 would be a bit.

On the other hand, an electric starter and automated timers, could have it so it charged other batteries for quiet times. Since there is no harmful gases given off. Exhaust is not such a problem.

Some ideas to share with those creative out there.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zerotensor on June 21, 2008, 09:31:57 PM
HHO when ignited does not implode.  It explodes.

True, the volume of liquid water is less than the volume of HHO at the same temperature, but:

1)  The water produced is not liquid.  It is steam.
2)  The temperature of the steam produced is much greater than the temp. of the HHO.

Only by extracting-away the heat, (and thus condensing the steam), can a vacuum be produced.

You can make a very good vacuum by rapidly cooling steam in a sealed vessel.  I once was steaming vegetables in an electric wok with a hemispherical lid.  The water all boiled away, and to avoid a smelly cloud from filling the room, I transfered the whole apparatus to the sink (after unplugging it of course), and ran cold water over the top.  The steam inside condensed and the lid became STUCK to the wok because the steam inside condensed, creating a very good vacuum.  I couldn't separate the lid, no matter how hard I tried.  I actually cracked a rib trying to torque the lid off!  I should have just heated -up the wok again, but I wasn't thinking clearly.  Eventually, I hit the lid as hard as I could with a pair of pliers, and *foom*  the lid popped off, bent itself into a banana-like shape, flipped into the air with an odd dissonant ringing sound, and a cloud of cold water vapor materialized in midair right in front of my eyes.  Crazy.

Anyway, the only way you could make the HHO -->  H2O reaction produce a vacuum is if you could find a way to extract the thermal energy of the resulting steam, thereby condensing it.  This is unlikely to happen within the short time-period of a single cycle of a piston engine.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 22, 2008, 04:20:26 AM
HHO when ignited does not implode.  It explodes.

True, the volume of liquid water is less than the volume of HHO at the same temperature, but:

1)  The water produced is not liquid.  It is steam.
2)  The temperature of the steam produced is much greater than the temp. of the HHO.


Everything I read about HHO Brown's Gas, said that if you ignite in a sealed cylinder, it implodes.
It MUST be SEALED. Mixing it with petrol, is not the same thing. And igniting it with any air inlet is not the same thing. It was over 20 years ago I read this, but the idea stuck in my mind as an amazing thing. It might be possible they said it had to be in a partial vaccum already. IE as when a cyclinder is opened and sucking in the mixture as in the animation above, and the valved closed Before BDC. The mixture is then in a sealed chamber, and the piston still heading towards BDC makes it partial vacuum, certainly less than atmospheric pressure. If ignited at BDC it now is a completely different set of circumstances and then it wil SUCK the piston upwards. That is the ONLY reason I am mentioning this whole article is based on that article interview with Dr Yul Brown in the 80's with Grass Roots magazine, which was based on alternative ways and energies.

Do you know for a fact that it explodes in this case?
1. In a sealed container with a partial vaccum?
2. Ignited near BDC

Note the above diagram animation is a standard 4 stroke engine running petrol firing regular Before TDC.
I have yet to do another animation with HHO Brown's Gas firing near BDC (Bottom Dead Centre).
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zerotensor on June 22, 2008, 05:35:57 AM
I suppose you are right, after all.

It explodes, then quickly implodes.  The implosion wins.  The thermal energy of the steam created by the reaction is negated by its rapid expansion.  This causes the hot steam to rapidly cool and condense to vapor, resulting in a net implosion effect.

in case you haven't seen these, check out,

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarbideTip

Cheers.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 22, 2008, 06:34:55 AM
Here is the 2 Stroke version using HHO in a vacuum, to create an implosion after decompression.
It is slowed right down to show each necessary stage.

I will explain it in more detail when I get more time...

Though the diagram itself is fairly self explanatory with the different phases/cycles.

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/HHO2strokeImplosion.gif)

Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 22, 2008, 08:00:57 AM
Explaining the above HHO Brown's Gas Diagram

Implosion

1. This requires modifications to a standard 4 stroke engine with a double over head cam (DOHC).

2. The intake system of carberettor or Fuel Injection would need to be modified to take GAS as the primary input. Ideal EFI would be best with modifications as required to the sensors in the feedback as discussed in other HHO modfications. It would also require the bubbler safety mechanisms to prevent flash back.

3. To convert a 4 stroke to 2 stroke, the cams need to be modified with their cog sizes to be the same size (number of teeth) as the crankshaft (bottom rotating wheel)

4. The cams need to be modified for their timing for opening valves different, and will most likely need to be ground by a grinder, or welded and ground to get the desired effect. Trial and error experimentation will be needed to get it right. (Still in Prototype stages)


The CYCLES Explained...
1. Intake Cycle
Just after TDC (about 10 deg) the inlet valve opens to let in the HHO which is electronic fuel injected at this timing. (electronic feedback sesnor required to accuracy of the stroke degrees). The intake continues to take in the HHO till about 70 deg past TDC and closes.

2. Decompression Cycle
The remainder of the downward stroke from 70 to 100 deg (90 is half way down) creates a vacuum and spreads the HHO into this area more so.

3. Firing Cycle
Is at approx 100 to 175 deg after TDC (Trial Experiments to be done) and will vary with advance timing as does the regular 4 stroke engine allow for different RPM. At slow speed or starting speed, the timing might well need to fire at BDC (180 deg after TDC) which is the bottom of the stroke. The resultant HHO gas (Brown's Gas HHO Monoatomic not Diatomic HHO) ignited in a vacuum results in an Implosion (NOTE: IMPORTANT, HHO Gas in a clear container with sunlight will split from Monoatomic to Diatomic and will not behave the same. Ignited in room atmospheric levels, Diatomic POPS louder)

4. Implosion Cycle
From the point of ignition to the resultant implosion there will be a delay, based on the properties of HHO, and the RPM of the engine. Hence the timing of the firing must advance as the speed goes up for efficiency of the power stroke, which is this implosion stroke. It goes from just prior to BDC, thru BDC, and upwards to near TDC, with the piston being sucked upwards toward TDC.

5. Exhaust Cycle
Several Degrees BTC the exhaust valve opens and lets the exhaust gases out, which by all accounts reported should be water, as liquid. The force of the piston moving up acts like a pump, however, the fact that the implosion is about 1800th of the gas volume, means that the SUCKING towards the top might continue if let go to even after the the time that the valve needs to be opened. The exhaust valve opening, of course, if there still is a vacuum, will start to suck air in through it. So this needs to be compensated for with a suction pump after the exhaust port, and might require it's own system, to suck the water out and remove it as water. I can also be collected to be put back into the Brown's Gas HHO Cell. This would theoretically make it a sealed system. The exhaust valve then closes at TDC ready for the restart of the intake cycle in step 1 around 10 Deg after TDC.


Heres that diagram again so it's all in ONE post.
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/HHO2strokeImplosion.gif)

FINAL NOTE: All these settings of degrees are approximations of the theory and will vary with fine tuning to what is the most efficient with consideration for speeds of gas injection, from the delays of starting a cycle to it happening in actuality. This applies to all stages, including the burning, decompression, implosion and exhaust. Like all machines, a balance of all the different forces needs to be found and optomized for it to work basically, then made more efficient. As to what tolerances are allowable for this in the forces of nature, trial and error experimentation is required.

NOTE ooops... on the diagram it says...

Ratio 1:1  Cam 1 to Drive Shaft 2
it should read..
Ratio 1:1  Cam 1 to Drive Shaft 1
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 22, 2008, 08:29:22 AM
Expand and contract. I've blown up bubblers by doing it too.

You might want to examine my last post on the modified 4 stroke engine into 2 strokes, with 5 cycles in those 2 strokes.

This will show a different environment of a vacuum effect in a sealed space of the cylinder. There is a detailed explanation of the theory.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum Distributer Cap etc.
Post by: zenarrow on June 23, 2008, 06:32:49 AM
Something I forgot. It came to me in the middle of the night.
Distributer Cap.
Since I am working with a motorcycle this is not a problem, as the electrical firing to each cylinder has its own HT Coil to the spark plug. A car however has to rotor pointing at the correct lead.

The distributer itself has the sensor for firing. Where the points used to be for those with modern Electronic Ignitions. The distributer itself is rotated to get the electrical timing correct. These days it's rarely touched as there is no wear like there used to be with points. However, it can be loosened and the timing firing changed.

Now the main problem here is going to be that the rotation of the distributer for one revolution, will be for the 4 stroke and not the 2. Meaning the same mod to the cams cogs will have to be performed here. The cams need their cog size reduced to half the diameter and teeth count. The Distributer likewise will need to have the cog size reduced to half size and teeth. Now this can be a major problem to solve depending on how this makes the connection to the engine. As it used to be in splines, which is a major connection. I do remember seeing stuff about years ago, about different splines on distributors. This may have to be a custom made part. And likely the spline it mates with will also need to be changed to allow for a good fit with distance. As if the shaft centres are kept the same distance as prior, and one cog is reduced in diameter and teeth, then they will not even touch each other.

A motor cycle has the pick up for firing on the crankshaft in most cases. And the 4 cylinder, actually fires 2 cylinders at the same time from the same coil. A 4 cylinder has 2 coils with 2 High Tension leads coming out. These are paired to fire 2 & 4 at the same time, and 1 & 3 at the same time. One is actually in its firing strok, the other is in the exhaust stroke, and the firing there is just an extra which makes no difference. However the good news is, now with the mods to convert it to 2 strokes for a full cycle as above, that redundancy firing will now in fact be used exactly where it is supposed to be. It is almost like it was foreknown to be like this in the destiny of mankind ;D lol.

Other factors are that now fuel is being used up and burnt twice as often. However, it might be that less fuel is required, and less engine speed (RPM) required, in order to get the same power as petrol/gasoline. This will make a difference to the output drive chain from the engine to the wheels. And might require changes to gear it to allow for less RPM to a faster wheel speed.
On a bike this is simply done by a smaller sprocket on the back wheel, and/or a larger on the drive shaft. (of course wear and tear has cogs and chains mate with each other, but for proto types that can be over looked till it is finalized, with caution for chains slipping off)
With a car this requires different ratio diferentials (the DIFF) on the rear wheel drives. Front wheel drives is another language to what I am used to, and I have no idea what goes on in the magic box ;) ... yet. ;)

An old 4 cylinder is an idea testing for this. Motorcyle prototype to then refine the data to make it for a car. Personally I used to love the old Gemini Holden with the Isuzu engine 1600cc. They were fairly robust and took a lot of abuse ;) These can all be purchases for less than $2000 in a going state. Or cheaper. Mods could likely be done in the car itself, using the car as a workshop, for those who have a parking space to spare ;D.




Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 23, 2008, 09:14:14 AM
here is a side by side animated gif of the two engine types side by side.
That is the regular 4 stroke engine on the left.
The modified 4 stroke into a 2 stroke HHO Implosion on the right.
These are very slowed down, and some stage pause, in order to synchronize the relative functions from one engine to the other. Remember the 4 stroke is doing 2 revolutions of the crank to the 2 strokes 1 revolution. There is a lot of pausing one to have the other catch up.

The power stroke of the 4 stroke is included in the firing. The power stroke of the 2 stroke is the implosion.

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/4strksbs2strkHHOs80.gif)
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: jikwan on June 23, 2008, 11:30:42 PM
zen arrow
this idea is blowing my mind
radical revolutionary even though its an old concept
keep on keeping on man
nice graphics
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 24, 2008, 03:01:02 PM
zen arrow
this idea is blowing my mind
radical revolutionary even though its an old concept
keep on keeping on man
nice graphics

Thanks jikwan

I have just finished a video explaining it with the animations. Here is a playlist, the first 2 videos on the play list are the first 2 animated gifs above, doing about 4 or 5 cycles for about 30 seconds.

The 3rd video is one I just finished. Which goes for 10:46 and uses both animations, and explains the workings of the 4 stroke with a voice over, pauses, etc, and the 2 stroke conversion to an Implosion Engine. As well as playing the side by side at for the remaing minute or so.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7AF455C0A317C691 (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7AF455C0A317C691)

Perhaps later when I feel motivated to do so, I will explain with voice over the side by side cycles.

I get visions in my head of these things. I found describing them so someone else understands them is just falling far short of connecting most times. Since I am a philosopher as well, I see people arguing against others all the time, where both agree, but think the other is disagreeing with them. Such is the dysfunctional world we live it. To do it with anything less than a visual aid, is just too frustrating. I encourage all to use visual aids and use the multimedia technology we have available. It is worth learning, and should be part of the schooling requirements. For the future of mankind depends on us learning to communicate effectively. For from assumption only comes all manner strife. Assumptions shape the illusions we think are reality.

Peace by Kindness NOT War

ZenArrow
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: GravityDad on June 25, 2008, 02:26:36 AM
I sometimes have the same visions of people exchanging ideas and arriving at wondrous conclusions  :o I just stumbled across this Brown's gas 2 weeks ago doing "research" on wet oxygen for possible NOx reduction. To my surprise very little has been researched. It seems either quackery or took off toward Fuel Cell technology. The idea of an IMPLODING engine does sound different and certainly goes against all we think of as todays COMBUSTION engine. That maybe the problem in trying to combine HHO with todays engines. One thought I did have was how about turning the whole "engine" upside down!  ;D  Another is using HHO should not create any heat so out goes the radiator. This may present a problem in keeping the engine stable through cold and weather? Another idea that I have jumbling around in my head is: can magnetic force be used to somehow "couple" the "piston" instead of mechanical linkage. Remember the "block" can be made of almost anything since no real heat is generated. Ok enough here hope you keep up the good work zen arrow.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 25, 2008, 06:41:11 AM
I sometimes have the same visions of people exchanging ideas and arriving at wondrous conclusions  :o I just stumbled across this Brown's gas 2 weeks ago doing "research" on wet oxygen for possible NOx reduction. To my surprise very little has been researched. It seems either quackery or took off toward Fuel Cell technology. The idea of an IMPLODING engine does sound different and certainly goes against all we think of as todays COMBUSTION engine. That maybe the problem in trying to combine HHO with todays engines. One thought I did have was how about turning the whole "engine" upside down!  ;D  Another is using HHO should not create any heat so out goes the radiator. This may present a problem in keeping the engine stable through cold and weather? Another idea that I have jumbling around in my head is: can magnetic force be used to somehow "couple" the "piston" instead of mechanical linkage. Remember the "block" can be made of almost anything since no real heat is generated. Ok enough here hope you keep up the good work zen arrow.

Hey GravityDad

Some very good ideas there.
The upside down engine was my first idea to, for the draining.
I am not sure on the magnetic force idea yet, will have to ponder some.
My mind likes the idea of many different concepts being overlaid to enhance one another. And I guess that is kinda my long term goal. To put all branches into one as it were. A bit like how the human mouth has so many uses for so many systems. From eating input, to tasting foods and drinks, to drinking, breathing, talking, to kissing and more.

If you watched my recent video, the second comment was about the valves being "sucked in" by the implosion, and getting past them. So that too is something to consider. The idea has been on my mind during sleep, and I was thinking that both valves are only open near TDC, and perhaps a mechanical linkage might hold them shut until near TDC. But that is a sloppy fix, based on trying to keep the current engine design. He also suggest the rotary engine, and was going to get back to me with information on that.

My first idea was to put the valves above the head, with a redesign. So sucking down would only seal them better.

If you research Dr Yul Brown, and there is a poor sound quality video on my unityenergy youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityEnergy (http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityEnergy) you will find that he couldn't get funding for research on it. It is atrocious sound, the mic is so far from him, and there is background interference. Almost like a conspiracy lol. But seriously, funding for this would put all fossil fuel companies out of business, and its right under our noses, we drink it to live. So hence no funding is deeper than he may have realized. When the reporter interviewer mentions the implosion, Brown does not want to go into it. Almost like he either knew of complications, or knew that any ideas on this would be thwarted by other sources.

The fuel companies dont mind HHO as an additive, as they still get to sell you oil products.
Ever wondered why they are still drilling for more oil, when there is the icecaps melting? The other week I heard a politican say plastic was bad, and said we are going to paper bags for groceries. Hello? Does anyone really take trees as the earths lungs seriously? Or it is based on, well everyone else is doing it, so it must not be so bad? Said the smoker who had lung cancer. Just had to get some perspective on why we want better ways of doing things. Personally I think money is almost like a disease. I prefer not to have money be any part of my motivation for anything. Pure science knowledge is the only motivator, with some ethics for tempering. Sorry didnt want to sound like a greenie. Im just aware of the balance of nature, and the need for the earth to stop smoking fossil fuels.

As far as engine temp in various weather conditions. I have not really experienced the cold nor the heat, thank God, I live in Sydney which I hear is like California weather. With only a handful of hot days a year and likewise of cold. It would be ironic if we ended up having to create the equivalent of an air conditioner for the engine bay? lol But since we are not generating any heat as a side effect to heat any water. Though temperature does sound like it would be a potential problem. But that is a future knowledge factor for the ball park figures of min and max operating temperatures. We need to get it running first.

Just a thought on the valve situation, a flash image in my mind of wheels rotating on the cam axis. Where the actuall wheel has a flat edge like a flat tyre, and seals up. But that is a lot of friction. Flash ideas, mmmm lol. Though maybe rubber is not such a bad idea either if there is less heat. Maybe like a squash ball blocking a hole. These are very off the top of my head flash ideas, so please dont think they are totally daft, just brainstorming possible combinations. As you say, sharing ideas.

Thanks for your input and reply.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 25, 2008, 08:29:01 AM
Potential Valve problem...

It was noted by a comment to the video at my unityenergy You Tube channel
(video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndpk3qAJS-8&feature=PlayList&p=7AF455C0A317C691&index=2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndpk3qAJS-8&feature=PlayList&p=7AF455C0A317C691&index=2))

The comment by patman2nv
Quote
I dont think that is a very good theory for a couple reasons. First wouldn't the implosion pull the valves open easier than pulling the piston up? that could result in an implosion or reaction further back in the system. this theory may work better with a rotary engine.I saw on here a new engine in development that is a rotory cyle engine that uses combustion but i know that the way the ports are designed on that it should, in theory , work!!!!!!! i will find it and post again for you.

I do wonder how much different stronger valve springs would make?
As I do recall many hi performance engines have heavier springs to prevent or reduce valve bounce at hi speed. Of course the heavier springs would mean more load on the cams system. the other side of this is that the valves most likely would not need to open as much as for petrol fuel, at least on the exhaust cycle. The intake is up for experimentation, as is all of it. I do remind the reader this is all just ideas on the drawing board currently. I really like to have a lot of thought into the outcome before I commit to modifying my motorcycle ;D

I am also considering the standard two stroke petrol engine, with ports. It's something to get my head around and it would be most likely a design from scratch. But that would be like casting it all.

On the other hand, if there is no explosive heat, I am considering a complete redesign of everything.

There are quite a lot of animations of a standard petroleum 2 stroke engine processes, really an ingenius idea. Though they have been improved for the many inefficiency losses due to speed differences. The original 2 strokes didnt have advance timing, nor reed valves to prevent losses. However an old Bridgestone 2 stroke I had come my way some 26 years ago, and also the kh125, had a rotary disc acting like valve going past the carbie in the crankcase input.

I have to get more familiar with the 2 stroke to see what needs modifying. To know how it works is different to being intimate. It's like learning an alphabet, words, sentence contructions, and how to put together paragraphs, by comparison, the various stages of familarity allow flow. The difference between having to stop and think, or having it come forth as second nature without conscious thought. Such is the creative inventive mind, familiarity with the principles as tools. (I did design an electronic advance for a 2 stroke some 22 years ago, then Suzuki came out with one 2 years later) But I am not so familiar with the ports internal aspects intimately.

Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: zenarrow on June 25, 2008, 11:47:51 AM
Standard Petrol 2 Stroke Valveless Design

I have been pondering on the standard petrol 2 stroke, and a concept of complete redesign for implosion, and it has come to my reckoning that my first attemps while they can suck the gas in, by creating a vacuum low pressure, that the gas would seemingly always (yet to be determined, but seem right so far) be under compression when firing.

Now this whole thread is about HHO in a vacuum imploding. I do wonder if it was put into a normal engine under compression, if it would behave differently again when fired in a regular 4 stroke compression cycle, or 2 stroke. Maybe I am chasing an old idea which was given up for this reason. That it works just as well with compression. In the video I have on my YouTube channle with poor sound of an interview with Yul Brown in Australia, he fobbs off the the idea of decompression/implosion and says don't worry about that. However in that video he had an Australian holden engine running on the gas. Though the interviewer, American, says, "what's that a Ford?" LOL!?!? I guess that just shows the cultural differences of terminology. My wife wouldnt have got that wrong, and she doesn't know much about such things at all.

After the valve issue with implosion as mentioned above in other posts, I will have to say, I might examine the idea of a regular 4 stroke compression ignition.

As mentioned at the very start of this article, it was stated that 0.25 Litres per Minute consumed by a petrol engine at 15 Miles Per Gallon with an assumed speed of 60 MPH. That the HHO guys who are adding this to petrol engines as an additive are getting between 1 litre and 3 litres per minute unregulated into the air filter. To me that was a horrible waste of a more volatile fuel potential than petrol, and efficiencies needed to be explored.

So the next phase I want to do is along the lines of an LP Gas conversion, with HHO on demand as the supply of GAS (not gasoline, but LPG replacement).

This is on the exploration of the assumption that Brown's Gas (HHO) mixed with air, and used as a replacement for LPG will work similarily under compression.

I anyone had any ideas on this let me know, or knows of other threads on this topic I would also be interested. I really need to do more research, pondering and experiments on this. Currently I think it is the best angle. As perhaps my previous replier GravityDad mentioned, that the implosion idea was an old one and given up and gone into other areas. But no labour is without profit. As Edison said, he had invented over 100 ways of how to not make a light bulb.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2008, 07:15:23 PM
Zenarrow,

This is very cool and I am really glad you brought up the implosion thing.

And OK Yull Brown himself said to not pay attention to decompression implosion stuff - If that is true, I do not know.

I am not a car guy. I changed my own plugs n wires and oil in the 70's, but that is it.

This idea is a little like a diesel engine in reverse:

Explanation 1

Implode the HHO in one cylinder,

As that is imploding, the opposite piston is pulling up from the water in it's cylinder and creating a vacuum in the opposite one.

Spark the HHO in cylinder 2 and the piston will be sucked to the top

and at the same time the opposite piston will be pushed to the bottom.

If the gas inlet lets in a wee bit of water which is sitting on the top of the piston then when the piston is moved to the bottom with force of other cylinder the vacuum pressure will pull the HHO apart and the gas will be ready to implode on this cylinder.

Yikes this is hard to explain.

another try:

Cylinder 1
Piston on top
water resting on top of this piston

Suddenly the piston drops to the bottom

this vacuum creates HHO from the water. vacuum is on top of the cylinder.

At this time in cylinder 2

With the piston in cylinder 1 in the down position,
The piston in cylinder 2 is in the up position and a little water is let out to rest on top of the piston.

Back in cylinder 1, the spark strikes the gas and the piston 1 goes up to the top

forcing piston 2 into the down position (thus creating HHO by sucking it out of the water)

And a little water is let into the space on the top of piston 1

The water may be recycled to become the water let into the top of the piston too.

I will try again if necessary,

jeanna

The biggest questions I can see are can the standard parts be modified?
is there enough vacuum produced from one stroke?

-----------
FYI where this information came from:

Many years ago I researched the Kunkel patent awarded only after the patent office witnessed it working.

I posted the Kunkel patent on the pyramid general topic thread and I can link it here if necessary, so here goes:

The lower chambers up to the kings chamber in the pyramid work as a 2 stroke ram pump.
I only want to refer to the second and bigger stroke.

The grand gallery is built as a vacuum chamber. Water from the lower parts of the pump are sucked up into it and the vacuum and its release are part of how the ram pump works. The tricky part is that this vacuum will literally pull HHO out of the water to fill the space with gas and the pump will slow down.

Well, the gas happens to be HHO.

So, the vacuum chamber is filled with part water and part HHO.

Add a spark and the the gas implodes sucking water to fill the chamber, then once it is filled and no more vacuum is pulling the water up, then a check valve in the queen's chamber can open (gravity now) and the water will flow out and through another opening in the wall.

This causes a vacuum to reappear in the grand gallery which sucks water up into it until the vacuum pulls the HHO out of the water again. (BTW at this same time the check valve in the queen's chamber closes forcing the vacuum to be the only force going on.)

What I don't know is if the vacuum needed for the HHO to be pulled out of liquid water can be accomplished in a single stroke. I can not see why not.

It seems to me that car pistons are engineered to withstand this kind of vacuum if they can withstand the pressure from the explosion of gasoline, so it ought to be the same parts.

Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2008, 09:12:12 PM
For those interested, here is the link to the page with the pdf of the kunkel patent. reply 1

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4045.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4045.0.html)

 I just want to clarify what I meant by
Quote
This idea is a little like a diesel engine in reverse:

I meant that whereas a diesel takes non volatile diesel and compresses it to where it self ignites, this would do the reverse by taking non volatile water and vacuming it to HHO which could then ignite (by a spark ).

jeanna
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: retrodynamic on June 27, 2008, 09:06:11 PM
Yes it is. What do you think a over-unit power plant, to make an efficient electrolisy, to take the H from whater. Check this project:
The new Gearturbine, power by barr, with retrodynamic dextrogiro vs levogiro effect, at non parasitic looses system, and over-unit engine. Details:

www.geocities.com/gearturbine
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: Reformator on September 24, 2008, 12:16:41 AM
It can drive cars!

http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgasfuelsaver.html

 8) 8) 8)


Is it better than the Japan water engine that was build 3 months ago?
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: Carbide_Tipped on September 24, 2008, 02:02:42 AM
The current pop-it valves will not work with vacuum. Did that already with a reground cam 4-stroke. Valves will always get pulled open. The force is applied to the springs when you want it at the piston. :)

Edward Kunkels pump that jeanna was talking about has me intrigued. I have done many cell ignition tests and concluded that a HHO water pump could work.
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: ltseung888 on August 11, 2014, 01:40:56 AM
Can any one explain the mechanism of Browns Gas Implosion in greater detail?
 
I am particularly interested in the molecular structure of the atoms and molecules involved.
 
Imposion means external gases will rush in to fill the vacuum.  Work and energy will be supplied by the surrounding environment.  Apart from Browns Gas, are there any other known cases of implosion?
Title: Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
Post by: MarkE on August 11, 2014, 02:04:04 AM
Why do you find it remarkable that gas is less dense than liquid, or that a quantity of gas molecules at some temperature and confined to some volume exhibits pressure as described by the gas laws?