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Availbale Products, Material- and Service suppliers => Actual Products => Topic started by: z.monkey on June 10, 2008, 04:34:12 PM
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Howdy Y'all,
While this is not an energy generating device it is an energy conserving device. I am talking about a radiant barrier. I live in Texas and in the summer the Sun is totally unforgiving. Trying to cool you house to an acceptable level is a very expensive endeavor. This year I decided to make an effort to minimize my cooling costs. At first we were going to add insulation and ventilation to the attic to keep the heat out. Then I started looking at the radiant barrier products. There are many different products and everyone that you talk to will tell you a different way to install it. Some are spray on, others are foil paper, some are insulation products which have radiant barrier backer paper. After studying the available products for a month I went with a product called Arma Foil made by a company in Arlington Texas called Energy Efficient Solutions.
http://www.energyefficientsolutions.com/
The Arma Foil is a paper and polymer mesh backer which is covered with aluminum foil on both sides. Is can be installed under the roof decking if you are using it on a new roof. I am doing a retrofit, so I am installing it in the rafter bays under the exiting roof decking. The Arma Foil comes in rolls of various widths so it will fit many different house constructions. I am also going to put down a layer horizontally on top of the new insulation to double the effectiveness. Actually its not double, the Arma Foil claims to stop 97% of the infrared radiation from entering your home. Two layers would yield 97% and then 97% of the remaining 3%, so 99.1% all together.
This material was originally developed by NASA for use in space suits. The Aluminum foil has a low emissivity ~3% to 5% and when you use an isolated double layer it blocks more than 99% of the energy radiated at it. The is effective throughout the ultraviolet, visible, infrared, and high frequency radio frequency ranges. So in essence this material blocks the heat from getting into your home, so your air conditioner has an easier time trying to cool your house when it is 104 degrees outside.
I have noticed a MAJOR difference. The attic is a LOT cooler. The inside of the house is a LOT cooler. The biggest difference of all is the air conditioning compressor is running a LOT less. That means a lot less $$$ to cool my house. I have only had it up there for a couple of weeks so I don't have any hard numbers yet, but I will be measuring the difference in the number of kilowatt hours used to run the air conditioner and the number of dollars I have to spend for electricity. I am about 50% done with the installation so for. This has been a really big project, and so far I am the only one working on it, so it is taking me a lot of time. I am expecting big dividends for this project. Maybe up to 25% of my electric bill.
Blessed Be Brothers...
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Thanks for posting! Very interesting.
One question: can you place some foil fully around a bottle filled with hot water and check its efficiency by comparing temperature drop for a similar bottle but without foil?
I?d be interested in saving energy in winter and if Arma foil reflects 97% in low IR too, it might work.
Many thanks,
Tinu
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Howdy,
Yeah, the Arma Foil does reflect the low infrared range really well. It works down into the radio frequency range. If it is grounded it makes a good EM shield also, but you can't solder it because its aluminum. I'll try your water bottle experiment when I get some time. I have been exceedingly busy lately, and I have to finish the radiant barrier, insulation, and attic ventilation before it gets to be 104 degrees here. I have really been trying hard to get this done before summer, but I have a bizillion other distractions and responsibilities to keep up with also.
Another experiment I want to try is making an orgone accumulator out of the Arma Foil material. I have built several orgone accumulators out of various materials, but the Arma Foil is something new I haven't played with yet.
If you look on Energy Efficient Solutions website they illustrate the way the Arma Foil works in the winter. It reflects the heat back into the house. So it is a hot and cold solution. Sort of like a thermos, or an igloo it keeps the cold stuff cold or the hot stuff hot. Its a thermal isolator. Thats good for me because my wife likes to keep it like about 60 degrees F inside in the summer time. I am usually wearing my sweats in the summer time when I am in the house. My electrical bills have been astronomical, and hopefully the Arma Foil will make them reasonable.
OK, Have fun with that...
Blessed Be Brothers...
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Another benefit of this product is that using it in the walls and roof of a building will turn the entire thing into a giant foil hat. According to modern conspiracy theory this should provide protection against traditional hazards such as alien mind-control rays, HAARP emissions, and so on. It would also help keep your neighbors from using your Wifi hub to download p0rn and wAr3z.
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Yeah,
I was counting on all of that. Especially the protection against government mind control rays, and alien mind reading starships. I was really worried about HAARP also. I made a baseball cap (that I wear backwards) out of the radiant barrier material. Then made some briefs out of it too, to protect my reproductivity... You never know when or where those damn forces of darkness are going to attack you... I was thinking I might put a layer on my wallet also... Or maybe a radiant barrier bikini for my wife...
About the neighbors using my WiFi, I installed a Trophy EMP Data Protection System. If anyone tries to hack my network it targets the signal source and the sends out a directional EM Pulse and melts their semiconductors. Haven't any any problems so far...
Keep on Engineering....
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Howdy Y'all,
The radiant barrier and insulation project is finally done!
Whoo Hoo!
On a hot summer day when the ambient air temperature is 104 my attic is hanging around the same temperature. Previously the temperature in the attic was getting up to 140 to 150 degrees! The ArmaFoil is an excellent product and it made a significant difference in the temperature in the attic. We'll see if it makes a significant difference in my electric bill...
Blessed Be Brothers...
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Greetings,
I've been selling and installing RB for over 30 years. This technology is another gov/indust'y suppressed prod going back over 50 years. I have a roll of RB that was manuf'd about 1927. Most of it well documented.
The reason for the suppression is for the very reason you like it so much. My experience here in the St. L area is that by just substituting RB for a low 10 % eff FG or cellulose you will save about 335% winter/ 50% summer. Foam is about 20% eff.
< Information and opinions by George Himmeger : The data enclosed is taken from a mechanical engineering handbook along with opinions from thirty years field experience
EXPLORING THE LEGITIMACY OF CLAIMS OF CHARACTERISTICS, TEST PROCEDURES AND ?R? RATINGS FOR THERMAL INSULATIONS USING MECHANICAL ENGINEERING HAND BOOK DATA AND FORMULA
Fiber glass FG - Radiant Barriers RB
Confusion about the performance of various insulation materials is not a recent phenomenon. Some of the confusion comes from the fact that various materials control heat energy transfer according to the specific physical properties of the materials and their assembly for use. Another problem is that large manufacturers, with government sanction, literally control the methods used to test their product and competing products. This has been an ongoing fight for over fifty years in this country. Some products, commonly used here, are not allowed in other countries because of low performance and serious health issues. The most common testing problems are:
(1) The tests do not reflect actual ?installed summer / winter conditions?, which can reveal up to fifty percent difference in performance compared to ?accepted tests?.
(2) Most tests favor conductivity resistance and limit the effects of radiant energy. Most homes have about 12-15% conductive surfaces, about 7% is convection and air spaces accounting for up to 80% radiant energy gain or loss.
(3) Some tests do not reveal the serious performance degradation from condensation, actually storing and increasing heat flow, and how it affects the interior humidity levels.
(4) Some tests do not reveal possible mold and other problems.
(5) Some tests, or labeling, do not reveal the health problems due to toxic chemicals. This information is classified as proprietary information and given only to the government.
(6) The tests or labels do not reveal the ratio of material to air volume This ratio can be as low as 1% mass to 99% air volume allowing radiant energy to travel through like an open door, plus air infiltration. The exception to this is radiant barriers which rely on the air space to perform efficiently. If insulation tests were performed with the best interest of the consumer at heart, there would probably be only two insulations available to the consumer.
(7) The other subject ignored by the bulk insulation manufacturers is the approximate 80% heat gain/loss in buildings through radiant heat, infrared energy. This can be expected because most bulk insulations are only about 10 ? 20% efficient in rejecting radiant energy, compared to about 97% for radiant barriers.
(8) The ?R? factor for bulk insulations are based on the recipical of a ?u? factor, a conductive test. The efficiency of RBS are based on a ?k? factor. You cannot obtain a ?R? value from a ?k? factor.
The independent, non competitive, method presented here is based on long established data of energy exchange between two surfaces, ceiling/floor, at a given Delta T? (temperature difference between two surfaces) and will tell you what amount of heat energy is radiated into and out of the home summer and winter. This method depends on no tests and incorporates the characteristics of the insulation, building materials and the effects of any climate condition. It can be performed by anyone with a thermometer. Conventional ?R? factor calculations cannot tell you this, due to the problems mentioned above and that the calculations are usually for material only. With ?R? factors you can calculate for one set of condidtions and then find out the calculations had no reference to what is actually going on in the structure.
The common denominator for all insulations is; what is the temperature of the drywall and the floor it is radiating to? This ?in situ? method incorporates all the variables because the drywall temperature determines your heating / cooling costs. You can use either Btu calculations or temperature calculations. You can see why the manufacturer of low efficiency insulation will not want to use this method. The drywall emission rate, about 90%+, is used in the following chart because that is the most commonly used material. The source of this information, and the following chart, is from an emissivity chart and formula of a mechanical engineering handbook. You may not be familiar with this source of information. It is a manual of materials charts, characteristics, formulas and numerous other factors used by engineers to manufacture most every thing you use. For many professional engineers it is the engineer?s ?bible?.
THE HUMAN FACTOR The average home owner believes that the air temperature is the dominant factor in comfort. This might be true if it wasn?t for the energy radiating into and out of the building with its effects. It is this energy ratio between the interior surfaces and the surface of the body that ultimately determines the comfort factor.
For maximum energy savings you want the lowest rate of absorption and re-radiation of energy. Lower is better. The determining factors of any insulation?s performance are:
1 The rate of absorption and re-emittance ( radiating ) of energy. From the ?bible? we see that wood (cellulose), and glass (fiberglass) is about 90%+ efficient in absorbing and re radiating energy. Base foam materials are about 20% efficient. Aluminum foil about .03%.
2 Other than the basic material and its construction features, moisture, either from humidity or condensations can cause substantial energy flow. Using the ratio or 5% increase per 1% of moisture by weight, data published by the National Bureau of Standards shows that fiberglass and cellulose can increase energy flow about 45 / 72% due to moisture in an uninhabited structure. Even the relative humidity can account for a dramatic increase in energy flow. Increased humidity levels in an inhabited structure can cause even more energy lose / gain. Since radiant barriers do not cause condensation and are superior vapor barriers, the interior humidity levels can be lower than with other insulations.
3 The low quality of installation can also be a detriment to the effectiveness of insulation.
The following chart shows Btu transfer for various ceiling temperatures. Calculations for infiltration, doors and windows are separate as they will be the same for any insulation installed. To increase the envelope efficiency even more, Insulation Specialists has developed a simple method of installing RB to reduce to about 1% the conductivity surfaces of studs and ceiling joists from the normal 12-15 % surface area. In summer you can measure the drywall temperature which can reach up to 110 degs on a 95 deg day with the lower efficiency insulations and no roof shading. If the floor temperature is 75 degs the ceiling, using temperature figures, will radiate about 99 degs/sf/hr. The 110 deg ceiling temperature is about 25 degrees hotter than a winter radiant heat system, causing the air conditioner to run continuously to try to compensate. Without the air conditioner the interior temperature could exceed 100 degs. If the RB is 110 degs it will radiate about 2-3 degs /sf/hr. In a properly designed ranch home the interior temperature, with RB, will be about 80-81 degs without air-conditioning. The humidity levels can also be lower as the RB does not cause condensation which can be forced into the home by the high temperatures in the structure as with some of the lower efficiency materials.
Question; if the indoor temperature can be hotter inside than outside without the air-conditioned, how can the manufacturer claim their material is insulation?
As you use the chart keep in mind these two questions;
1 If bulk insulations are about 99% airspaces and radiant energy travels through space at about the speed of light, and the base material absorbs and re-radiates the energy at about an 80-90 percent efficiency, how can a manufacturer claim their material is an insulator? More importantly how can an ?R? value be assigned to them ?
2 If the function of a RB is to reflect energy, how can an ?R? factor be assigned to it? How can the government and the manufacturers of bulk insulations legitimately force the use of ?R? factors in evaluating radiant barriers? More importantly, why?
3 Why has the US Senate interfered with, at least twice, the governments fair trade polices, including FTC regulations, when it comes to insulations? Regulations which would have provided for a fair playing field. Answer: Over $100,000,000,000.00 tax revenue per year.
Because of this and other reasons the American home owners is using up to two to three times the amount of energy to heat a cool a home than what should be used.
In summer you can determine the temperature of your ceiling drywall by taping a thermometer to the drywall surface.
This chart is based on a 75 deg floor temperature. The chart can be validated by using the emissivity data and formula from Mark?s Mechanical Engineering Handbook. FG values are for insulation between joists and include joist heat transfer. The RB value is for the joists surfaces covered with the RB and a furring strip to separate the RB from the drywall. ?A? is the dry wall temperature. ?B? represents the Btu?s radiated for the FG installation. ?C? represents the Btu?s radiated for the RB installation. ?D? the Btu difference between the FG and RB.
Although the mechanics for side walls will be slightly difference this method can be used foe approximate comparisons.
Summer Winter
?A? ?B? ?C? ?D? ?A? ?B? ?C? ?D? 150 88 5 83 75 0 0 0
140 75 4 71 70 5 .3 5
130 61 3 58 60 14 1 13
120 49 3 48 50 22 1 21
110 37 2 35 40 31 2 29
100 26 1 25 30 38 2 36
90 15 1 14 20 45 3 42
80 5 3 5 10 52 3 49
75 0 0 0 0 58 3 55
The 110 deg is high lighted to represent a 95 deg day. The 30 line is highlighted to show the similarities of the summer winter conditions. Note the jump when the temperature gets down to zero degs. Because of the rapid drop off in FG efficiency as the material thickness is increased it is difficult to extrapolate the RB and FG data for ?R? value comparison. Compared to the advertised ?R? value for FG the RB ?R? factor could exceed ?R?100 value by a considerable amount, and it is impossible to have a ?R? value of 100 much less 100 plus.
Myth: Dust adversely affects the RB performance. A: Dust has little or no effect on a horizontally installed RB with airspace both sides. The top surface could be painted black and the bottom surface might emit 1 or 2 extra Btus. Most ceiling installations have one or more layers, so any increase in heat flow is doubtful. There is little to no dust on vertical installations. Even with dust present the RB is superior to other materials.
Myth: Holes adversely affect the RB performance. A: Some RBs are manufactured with vapor escape holes. I know of no laboratory tests showing an increase in heat flow, particularly in multi layer installations. Obviously you don?t want large holes, these should be repaired.
Myth: RBs are not as efficient on up heat (winter) as summer. A: The engineering handbook does not make such a distinction. The mechanics of up heat vs down conductive heat flow are slightly different; therefore any given material may exhibit slight differences for winter. However these comments never note that the RB is still superior to other materials.
Myth: Aluminum corrodes. A: Pure aluminum, such as the 99.9% pure foil used in RB, does not corrode under normal atmospheric conditions.
A light oxidation does occur preventing any further oxidation. You would not want to breathe the fumes that could cause corrosion. Corrosion can and does occur in some unfinished alloy aluminum because of the dissimilar metals used for alloying the metal.
Myth: RB loses its insulation values over time. A: Since RBs do not corrode over time the answer is self evident. I know of installations over 30 years old that work just like the day they were installed.
Myth: You can?t use RB in very cold climates. When Perry and other scientists went to the poles they use aluminum foil to insulate the structures. The Navy SEALS used multi-layer foil (mfg?d to mil spec HH I 1252) in 1964 in the Artic buildings where the mineral wool was failing. >
Although I do not install RB any more I am still very motivated to provide info helping home owners to reduce energy costs. The fact is, that I can show how to build a home, preferably ranch or better yet geodesic, that gets free winter heating and free summer cooling (almost).
Any questions?
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Howdy rbisys2,
Hey, you don't have to convince me! I AM SOLD!
I love this stuff!
Blessed Be Brother...
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Howdy Y'all,
Here is an update on my energy efficiency improvements in the house.
Electric Bill for August 2007 was $485.73 with 3565 kilowatt hours used.
Electric Bill for August 2008 was $332.65 with 2675 kilowatt hours used.
That is a 31.5 percent improvement. The bill went down by $153.08.
So I guess are that really hard, absolutely miserable work in the attic
paid off. Again that is a double foil radiant barrier, one stapled to the
roof and the second on top of the insulation on the attic floor. We added
10 inches of insulation to bring the total height up to 16 inches.
So, that big tinfoil hat on the house really did pay off...
Blessed Be...
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Hello All,
First off, thank you fellow Texan z.monkey for the detailed posts regarding your ARMA Foil installation and its effects. Also thanks to rbisys2 for your verbose and educated post. I've studied this further and ran across a string that dives into the effect of RB and whether it "cooks" your roofing structure and the thermodynamics of attic environments located here:
http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=112101&page=5
This information combined with your results leaves me (and I would guess others as well) scratching my head as to the real "best way" to reduce electricity usage for heating and cooling. A list of questions/statements/theories below may help clear things up if enough people add their intellect.
If a reflective RB such as ARMA Foil is laid out over the floor insulation in the attic, would this be sufficient to protect the living area of the house and still allow the natural thermodynamics between the heated air in the attic expanding and therefore escaping through the roof vents or through the under-eave vents?
What are the true effects of following products:
Attic door blanket?
Solar Attic Fans? (I've heard that attic fans can cause negative pressure in the attic causing the attic to actually pull air from the living area.)
Ceiling Fans? (Convection fears in living areas)
Ridge Vents?
I would think that thermostat type and placement in the home are critical elements to AC efficiency. Are there some best practices and/or recommendations regarding thermostats?
Are there optimum settings for thermostats for different times of day, times of year, by region?
Is it possible for multi-zone AC systems (more than one thermostat and AC Unit in the same dwelling) to compete with each other? How is perfect harmony between the multiple systems attained?
Would insulating garage attics and garage doors that are attached to the house that may or may not share attic space with the living areas have a dramatic effect on the efficiency of the house? (I know it would have an effect, but is the benefit worth the cost of the solution?)
If I have a two story wall the length of my house facing South that gets the full effect of the sun would it help to grow something along that wall to shield it? Suggestions?
That's all I have. I'm a relatively new "poster", so I apologize in advance if my etiquette is askew.
Thanks to all..!!
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Howdy tallbaldguy,
The radiant barrier is going to cook the shingles only if it is directly underneath the shingles. Usually it is on the bottom of the roof deck. First the best way to reduce the cooling cost is to keep the sunlight from entering the house. Large trees that shade the entire house would be best. But this approach isn't a quick one, so we come up with alternatives in the mean time.
With any insulation or radiant barrier project you definitely do not want to block the attic ventilation. In the summer this ventilation helps to cool the attic. If you block the ventilation you will generating more heat in the attic driving up your electric cost. The purpose of the radiant barrier is to block radiant energy from entering the home and heating it. This is why I block the radiant energy below the roof deck and on the floor of the attic.
An attic door blanket will prevent living space air from flowing into the attic and attic air from flowing into the living space.
Attic fans are good and you don't have to worry about them sucking the cool air out of your living space if you have adequate static ventilation.
Ceiling fans circulate the air in the living space to make it seem a little cooler than it is. This helps if you run you thermostat a little higher to save on electricity.
Ridge vents are the best way to evacuate the hot air from the attic because they are at the apex of the roof.
Don't put the thermostat next to a vent or return. It should be in an area which is static air to get an accurate temperature reading.
Thermostat settings are a personal preference. If you turn the thermostat up during the day, don't go beyond about 10 degrees above the normal temperature because the air conditioner will have to work extra hard to compensate when it comes on.
Multiple control systems will compete with each other. It takes analysis and diligence to get them tuned to work together.
Insulating non-conditioned spaces helps because heat enters the whole system through these spaces. I installed radiant barrier in my garage and it helps to keep the study cool because they share attic space. Especially in the late afternoon when the sun is on the garage.
Any large areas of your house that are directly exposed to sunlight can be improved with radiant barrier material under the sheathing. If this is impractical then you can grow trees, shrubs or climbing ivys to prevent the sunlight from heating the wall.
The best possible situation is to stop the sunlight before it hits your house. Large trees improve the environment and save your house the wear from sunlight exposure. If you don't have large trees yet then there are a lot of options to help save money on your electric bill. Most of them do require a lot of work, but it is worth it on the electric bill savings, and you get to improve your house at the same time...
Blessed Be....
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Hey you made me very interested. I'm still a semi student and live with my parents. I live on the attic to be exact. What bothers me most aren't summer but winters where I sometimes have to wrap a blanket around myself from the cold. Even though I have a small heater, all the heat just disappears. A reason for this is the lack of any kind of insulation or RB. Now I'm thinking of installing a radiant barrier just like yours z-monkey but our roof is not as "work friendly" or new looking as yours. Personally I have never been up in the roof area above my roof to really check it out. But I might do so and take pictures so you guys can suggest and recommend stuff.
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Howdy Broli,
My attic is not new, its 30 years old. The reason it looks new is I completely reworked it this spring. The radiant barrier will reflect the heat back into the house in the wintertime. It helps with the heating in the winter also. Think about a moisture barrier. The moisture on the outside stays out. The moisture on the inside (or lack there of) stays in. The radiant barrier works the same except with energy. The energy on the outside stays outside, the energy on the inside (or lack there of) stays in. In the summer the radiant barrier keeps excessive heat out of the house. In the winter the radiant barrier keeps the heat in the house. It will reduce your energy costs for heating and cooling both in the summer and winter. Plus your house will feel a lot more comfortable.
Broli, if you room is in the attic you may have to tear out sheetrock to insulate the walls which are the roof (if you have angled walls). You would lay in a sheet of radiant barrier and then use fiberglass insulation behind it. Then replace the sheetrock. My brother's apartment in Germany is like this. He has a 3rd floor flat which is right against the roof. Also there is a new spray in foam insulation that offers better R ratings that the fiberglass batts. The most effective part of the process is the radiant barrier. We started noticing a difference when I was installing the radiant barrier, long before adding extra fiberglass batts...
Blessed Be...
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Zm, I need to break the plaster plates or however you call them to put the barrier behind them. Maybe I need something more temprorary to pass this winter rather than do a full renovation. How about I just install the radiant in my room as is, meaning stick it directly on the current wall and ceiling. Besides getting used to the space look this might be more economic and simpler.
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Howdy Brodi,
Yeah, the radiant barrier will work that way, like radiant barrier wall paper. Your parents are going to think you are a space alien nutjob, but you know who cares about that. Everyone here at overunity.com thinks I am a space alien nutjob, so well so what. I think it would look cool. You can even reapply you pictures and posters over it because it works in the whole spectrum of high frequency energy not just visible light. Your parents might even like it because it will save them some money on their electric or gas bill. I am going to apply the radiant barrier to the inside of my greenhouse roof to try and hold the heat in this winter. Usually I have a little heater and some lights out there, so with the radiant barrier maybe I won't have to expend as much energy in the greenhouse...
Blessed Be...
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After having a sneak peak at the upper roof I don't think it's that difficult after all. But I still haven't seen how much space there is between my angled wall and the actual roof in order to stuff it with fiberglass for example. Just saw an ad in the paper of 12 cm thick fiberglass which has aluminum foil on one side that sells for 4€ per 6m. This might be handy for the angled wall. I'm not sure whether I'll also place it on the the floor (the ceiling from my rooms perspective) or the radiant barrier would be enough. Also since I'm mostly concerned about winters and want to keep the heat inside should I then place the aluminum side facing me?
As a matter of fact the internet has showed me close to none shops that sell radiant barriers in my country (Belgium). On ebay in America I found a cool type namely a perforated one which allows it to breath which helps with moisture. So any help in finding shops in the European Union is mostly appreciated.
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Howdy Brodi,
Well, I live about 6000 miles away from you so I don't know if I can help. Let me ask my brother, he lives in Immenstaad, Germany.
Blessed Be...
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Btw the nick is broli ;D.
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Greetings,
Thank you for the reference to my input. Unfortunately I don't remember what I put in. At the expense of repeating myself I'm loading the following. Ifg it's a repeat, my apologies.but it will be useful for new readers.
1st though. RB WILL NOT cook singles. This bs was put out by competing insulation manufacturers. One big company paid dearly for this. The attic temperature on new constuction with 3 layer RB between joist is about 11 degs above OS ambient temp. That's up to 40 degs lower than with mineral wool. So whats cooking what?
2nd The purpose of moving air thru the attic, under controlled condition, is th move moistue out, not heat. Heat rises. The high heat energy coming thru the ceiling is the result of energy radiating down from the sheathing, The sheathing has about a 95% emissivity rating. The glaas (FG) tyhe same, which makes up only about 1% of the bulk.
3rd Mixing bulk and RB together on new construction is a waste of time and money. Since the RB is about 95% eff and the bulk about 10%, what is the bulk insul. going to do? NOTHING. In fact, this combination could reduce the effectiveness of the RB.
4th Ridge vents are the only systems approaching 100% eff. Note: Some ridge vents are almost useless. Go to; core-a-vent.om
If you have any questions, please ask at at rbisys@juno.com , as most answers are too involved for here. If too complex for e-m I'll give you me phone number.
George Himmeger TROY, IL 62294 e-m rbisys@juno.com
Information and opinions by George Himmeger : The data enclosed is taken from a mechanical engineering handbook along with
opinions from thirty years field experience
EXPLORING THE LEGITIMACY OF CLAIMS OF CHARACTERISTICS, TEST PROCEDURES AND “R†RATINGS FOR THERMAL INSULATIONS USING MECHANICAL ENGINEERING HAND BOOK DATA AND FORMULA
Fiber glass FG - Radiant Barriers RB
Confusion about the performance of various insulation materials is not a recent phenomenon. Some of the confusion comes from the fact that various materials control heat energy transfer according to the specific physical properties of the materials and their assembly for use. Another problem is that large manufacturers, with government sanction, literally control the methods used to test their product and competing products. This has been an ongoing fight for over fifty years in this country. Some products, commonly used here, are not allowed in other countries because of low performance and serious health issues. The most common testing problems are:
(1) The tests do not reflect actual “installed summer / winter conditionsâ€ÂÂ, which can reveal up to fifty percent difference in performance compared to “accepted testsâ€ÂÂ.
(2) Most tests favor conductivity resistance and limit the effects of radiant energy. Most homes have about 12-15% conductive surfaces, about 7% is convection and air spaces accounting for up to 80% radiant energy gain or loss.
(3) Some tests do not reveal the serious performance degradation from condensation, actually storing and increasing heat flow, and how it affects the interior humidity levels.
(4) Some tests do not reveal possible mold and other problems.
(5) Some tests, or labeling, do not reveal the health problems due to toxic chemicals. This information is classified as proprietary information and given only to the government.
(6) The tests or labels do not reveal the ratio of material to air volume This ratio can be as low as 1% mass to 99% air volume allowing radiant energy to travel through like an open door, plus air infiltration. The exception to this is radiant barriers which rely on the air space to perform efficiently. If insulation tests were performed with the best interest of the consumer at heart, there would probably be only two insulations available to the consumer.
(7) The other subject ignored by the bulk insulation manufacturers is the approximate 80% heat gain/loss in buildings through radiant heat, infrared energy. This can be expected because most bulk insulations are only about 10 – 20% efficient in rejecting radiant energy, compared to about 97% for radiant barriers.
(8) The “R†factor for bulk insulations are based on the recipical of a “u†factor, a conductive test. The efficiency of RBS are based on a “k†factor. You cannot obtain a “R†value from a “k†factor.
The independent, non competitive, method presented here is based on long established data of energy exchange between two surfaces, ceiling/floor, at a given Delta T†(temperature difference between two surfaces) and will tell you what amount of heat energy is radiated into and out of the home summer and winter. This method depends on no tests and incorporates the characteristics of the insulation, building materials and the effects of any climate condition. It can be performed by anyone with a thermometer. Conventional “R†factor calculations cannot tell you this, due to the problems mentioned above and that the calculations are usually for material only. With “R†factors you can calculate for one set of condidtions and then find out the calculations had no reference to what is actually going on in the structure.
The common denominator for all insulations is; what is the temperature of the drywall and the floor it is radiating to? This “in situ†method incorporates all the variables because the drywall temperature determines your heating / cooling costs. You can use either Btu calculations or temperature calculations. You can see why the manufacturer of low efficiency insulation will not want to use this method. The drywall emission rate, about 90%+, is used in the following chart because that is the most commonly used material. The source of this information, and the following chart, is from an emissivity chart and formula of a mechanical engineering handbook. You may not be familiar with this source of information. It is a manual of materials charts, characteristics, formulas and numerous other factors used by engineers to manufacture most every thing you use. For many professional engineers it is the engineer’s “bibleâ€ÂÂ.
THE HUMAN FACTOR The average home owner believes that the air temperature is the dominant factor in comfort. This might be true if it wasn’t for the energy radiating into and out of the building with its effects. It is this energy ratio between the interior surfaces and the surface of the body that ultimately determines the comfort factor.
For maximum energy savings you want the lowest rate of absorption and re-radiation of energy. Lower is better. The determining factors of any insulation’s performance are:
1 The rate of absorption and re-emittance ( radiating ) of energy. From the “bible†we see that wood (cellulose), and glass (fiberglass) is about 90%+ efficient in absorbing and re radiating energy. Base foam materials are about 20% efficient. Aluminum foil about .03%.
2 Other than the basic material and its construction features, moisture, either from humidity or condensations can cause substantial energy flow. Using the ratio or 5% increase per 1% of moisture by weight, data published by the National Bureau of Standards shows that fiberglass and cellulose can increase energy flow about 45 / 72% due to moisture in an uninhabited structure. Even the relative humidity can account for a dramatic increase in energy flow. Increased humidity levels in an inhabited structure can cause even more energy lose / gain. Since radiant barriers do not cause condensation and are superior vapor barriers, the interior humidity levels can be lower than with other insulations.
3 The low quality of installation can also be a detriment to the effectiveness of insulation.
The following chart shows Btu transfer for various ceiling temperatures. Calculations for infiltration, doors and windows are separate as they will be the same for any insulation installed. To increase the envelope efficiency even more, Insulation Specialists has developed a simple method of installing RB to reduce to about 1% the conductivity surfaces of studs and ceiling joists from the normal 12-15 % surface area. In summer you can measure the drywall temperature which can reach up to 110 degs on a 95 deg day with the lower efficiency insulations and no roof shading. If the floor temperature is 75 degs the ceiling, using temperature figures, will radiate about 99 degs/sf/hr. The 110 deg ceiling temperature is about 25 degrees hotter than a winter radiant heat system, causing the air conditioner to run continuously to try to compensate. Without the air conditioner the interior temperature could exceed 100 degs. If the RB is 110 degs it will radiate about 2-3 degs /sf/hr. In a properly designed ranch home the interior temperature, with RB, will be about 80-81 degs without air-conditioning. The humidity levels can also be lower as the RB does not cause condensation which can be forced into the home by the high temperatures in the structure as with some of the lower efficiency materials.
Question; if the indoor temperature can be hotter inside than outside without the air-conditioned, how can the manufacturer claim their material is insulation?
As you use the chart keep in mind these two questions;
1 If bulk insulations are about 99% airspaces and radiant energy travels through space at about the speed of light, and the base material absorbs and re-radiates the energy at about an 80-90 percent efficiency, how can a manufacturer claim their material is an insulator? More importantly how can an “R†value be assigned to them ?
2 If the function of a RB is to reflect energy, how can an “R†factor be assigned to it? How can the government and the manufacturers of bulk insulations legitimately force the use of “R†factors in evaluating radiant barriers? More importantly, why?
3 Why has the US Senate interfered with, at least twice, the governments fair trade polices, including FTC regulations, when it comes to insulations? Regulations which would have provided for a fair playing field. Answer: Over $100,000,000,000.00 tax revenue per year.
Because of this and other reasons the American home owners is using up to two to three times the amount of energy to heat a cool a home than what should be used.
In summer you can determine the temperature of your ceiling drywall by taping a thermometer to the drywall surface.
This chart is based on a 75 deg floor temperature. The chart can be validated by using the emissivity data and formula from Mark’s Mechanical Engineering Handbook. FG values are for insulation between joists and include joist heat transfer. The RB value is for the joists surfaces covered with the RB and a furring strip to separate the RB from the drywall. “A†is the dry wall temperature. “B†represents the Btu’s radiated for the FG installation. “C†represents the Btu’s radiated for the RB installation. “D†the Btu difference between the FG and RB.
Although the mechanics for side walls will be slightly difference this method can be used foe approximate comparisons.
Summer Winter
“A†“B†“C†“D†“A†“B†“C†“Dâ€ÂÂ
150 88 5 83 75 0 0 0
140 75 4 71 70 5 .3 5
130 61 3 58 60 14 1 13
120 49 3 48 50 22 1 21
110 37 2 35 40 31 2 29
100 26 1 25 30 38 2 36
90 15 1 14 20 45 3 42
80 5 .3 5 10 52 3 49
75 0 0 0 0 58 3 55
The 110 deg is high lighted to represent a 95 deg day. The 30 line is highlighted to show the similarities of the summer winter conditions. Note the jump when the temperature gets down to zero degs. Because of the rapid drop off in FG efficiency as the material thickness is increased it is difficult to extrapolate the RB and FG data for “R†value comparison. Compared to the advertised “R†value for FG the RB “R†factor could exceed “Râ€ÂÂ100 value by a considerable amount, and it is impossible to have a “R†value of 100 much less 100 plus.
Myth: Dust adversely affects the RB performance. A: Dust has little or no effect on a horizontally installed RB with airspace both sides. The top surface could be painted black and the bottom surface might emit 1 or 2 extra Btus. Most ceiling installations have one or more layers, so any increase in heat flow is doubtful. There is little to no dust on vertical installations. Even with dust present the RB is superior to other materials.
Myth: Holes adversely affect the RB performance. A: Some RBs are manufactured with vapor escape holes. I know of no laboratory tests showing an increase in heat flow, particularly in multi layer installations. Obviously you don’t want large holes, these should be repaired.
Myth: RBs are not as efficient on up heat (winter) as summer. A: The engineering handbook does not make such a distinction. The mechanics of up heat vs down conductive heat flow are slightly different; therefore any given material may exhibit slight differences for winter. However these comments never note that the RB is still superior to other materials.
Myth: Aluminum corrodes. A: Pure aluminum, such as the 99.9% pure foil used in RB, does not corrode under normal atmospheric conditions.
A light oxidation does occur preventing any further oxidation. You would not want to breathe the fumes that could cause corrosion. Corrosion can and does occur in some unfinished alloy aluminum because of the dissimilar metals used for alloying the metal.
Myth: RB loses its insulation values over time. A: Since RBs do not corrode over time the answer is self evident. I know of installations over 30 years old that work just like the day they were installed.
Myth: You can’t use RB in very cold climates. When Perry and other scientists went to the poles they use aluminum foil to insulate the structures. The Navy SEALS used multi-layer foil (mfg’d to mil spec HH I 1252) in 1964 in the Artic buildings where the mineral wool was failing.
Hope this helps
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Greetings,
My apologies for posting the same material again. I thought this was a new thread.
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Howdy Y'all,
OK, got the October electric bill...
October 2007 $334.65
October 2008 $181.00
Savings $153.65
The radiant barrier is the most effective energy project that I have engaged in this year.
I have saved $401 in electric costs since I finished the installation...
OK, Mo Later...
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You're just talking about good thermal isolation and thermally reflective material,
aren't you?
That proper thermal isolation material can save a lot of money on the heating bill
is a well known fact.
Calling it a "radiant barrier" seems a little misleading to me, as I imagine people
might think you're talking about "radiant energy barriers" or "radiant energy shields",
which is a term used by new-age golddiggers to sell people plates or objects made
of a "special material" that was "invented by Tesla" and transduces the "radiant energy"
into some form of chi-like "life energy". Or so they claim. That there is zero solid
information about this "purple plate"/"radiant energy shield" actually having been
invented and advertised by Tesla and linked to "life energy" at all does not stop them.
Of course the old term "radiant energy" is vague at best, was originally used in
various different meanings, from "electromagnetic radiation" to radioactivity
and cosmic (gamma) rays, and could mean anything really.
Still, it seems to me that if we're simply talking about keeping heat from leaking
out of the house, or in summer keeping heat from entering the house, by using
a layer of material that reflects the radiated heat, that we're actually talking
very clearly about thermal isolation and reflection.
Which is a lot less mysterious than "radiant energy". ;)
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Hey Koen1,
Long time no yaka yaka yaka....
This product is called "Radiant Barrier" because it was developed originally by NASA to shield satellites from cosmic radiation. When this material is grounded it sinks EM radiation from low frequency radio waves, up into the microwave band, on into the near and far infrared, through visible light and on up into the cosmic wave realm of EM radiation. This stuff is an EM shield, and the brand name that they used is "Radiant Barrier". Well, what can I say, this is Texas, we got a way...
The product is made from a paper substrate, a polyolefin net, then laminated on both side with aluminum foil. Its not mystical, its a solid Faraday Cage meant to block heat causing radiation.
Works good too...