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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Alexioco on June 02, 2008, 10:31:37 PM

Title: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 02, 2008, 10:31:37 PM
Ok I have learnt that MT 27 is one of the most important wheels out of the entire machines,  IMO it is part of the prime mover not yet complete, just wait till you see what it does...

Footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWUV3Jrux4k

The weight basically rises itself through the use of leverage and string, the weight applies its weight to the top half of the wheel which causes the wheel to turn which makes the weight lift itself up and is guided to the axle by some string, as the weight is being guided, it keeps its weight on the lever which keeps the wheel turning until the weight is half way up the wheel.

Once the rest of the mechanism is attached to this wheel, we will have Besslers working wheel...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: AB Hammer on June 03, 2008, 12:20:37 AM
Greetings Alex

 I watched your video. I will be writing you Tuesday with some diagrams to use for understanding weight points. I have to go back to work now that it has cooled off a bit. It's been hot in a tin shop.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Jerryx on June 03, 2008, 12:47:38 AM
This works

http://www.freewebs.com/boltoncomputers/PM.htm
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 03, 2008, 05:20:31 PM
Greetings Alex

 I watched your video. I will be writing you Tuesday with some diagrams to use for understanding weight points. I have to go back to work now that it has cooled off a bit. It's been hot in a tin shop.

I look forward to it :)

MT 27 IMO has to be part of the mechanism, I mean how many weights have you seen that can raise themselves?
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: oak on June 03, 2008, 06:02:18 PM
MT 27 IMO has to be part of the mechanism, I mean how many weights have you seen that can raise themselves?
I'm skeptical that any gravity wheel will work.  Of course I don't really know -- maybe Bessler had actually discovered the secret.  At any rate, MT 27 is interesting.  What if you placed three of them on the same axle, but with their "rest" positions offset 120 degrees from each other?
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 03, 2008, 06:15:25 PM
(Next Post, made a mistake)
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 03, 2008, 06:16:34 PM
I'm skeptical that any gravity wheel will work.  Of course I don't really know -- maybe Bessler had actually discovered the secret.  At any rate, MT 27 is interesting.  What if you placed three of them on the same axle, but with their "rest" positions offset 120 degrees from each other?

Well Bessler does say "this view shows what the thing might do if several things of this sort were placed next to each other along an axle/shaft"

I tried two weights, like in the MT picture, the wheel wont work on its own, but I certainly think that its part of the mechanism, the way in which the weight lifts is self is pure genius, I never would of though of it, yet it's so simple...

I think that MT 25 has something to do with it, MT 15 does and also MT 10, in fact a lot of the wheels have something about them which can only be detected if built or really really studied, I also noticed that something is hidden in MT 15 as Bessler announces, Would you like to join my forum too? I study in all of this over there and I have written all I have found there...

http://s11.invisionfree.com/Bessler_Quest/
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: starcruiser on June 04, 2008, 03:09:39 AM
@Alexioco,

Very impressive, from looking a the video, have you tried to use 2 of your wheels locked together on a common axle 180 degrees out from each other? From what I see this would continue to make it turn wouldn't you think?

also, I was thinking that you could replace the string with slotted bars to allow the movement of the weight and control the  movement as well. Do you think this would work?
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Sprocket on June 04, 2008, 04:52:00 AM
Cool forum Alex - great info and nice color scheme.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Charlie_V on June 04, 2008, 05:02:27 AM
Wow, that is probably the most impressive thing I've ever seen on this forum.  There is something about it that seems like a really good step in the right direction. 
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: rlortie on June 04, 2008, 06:24:24 AM
Alex,

Before you get to carried away with this. do me a favor please!

Look at the drawing below, add another "E"  to the left of the one in the upper right quadrant. These two "E's" are supporting the weights, are they not?

Now draw two vertical lines from these two "E's" and note the difference in spacing between your vertical lines and your axis. Pretty much centered, don't you think?  By adding the weight of the lower "B"levers to any slight offset you have and I bet you it will turn backwards slightly, find its COG and keel!

Please prove me wrong!  God I would love it if you could do so. :o

Ralph
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 04, 2008, 01:57:37 PM
Well it took me time to adjust the wheel to do what it does but I am sure this is what Bessler is getting at...
oh and by the way, if I make the weight even heavier it does not move up on its own, but if I attach just a little weight at the top of the wheel, it lifts the big weight on that lever, this wheel I now believe is that 4 - 1 ratio...

If I were to add the 2 weights like in that picture Ralph then the weight by the rim will lift the weight at the bottom half way up...

What this wheel is getting at is that a weight can be lifted with a lighter weight so it doesn't matter if both weights are now the same weight, it will move more than a normal wheel any how
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 04, 2008, 02:00:52 PM
Cool forum Alex - great info and nice color scheme.

Thanks  ;)

Come and join in the search, my forum needs some help   :-\
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: AB Hammer on June 04, 2008, 03:34:54 PM
Hay Alex

 The e-mail is sent, and I see Ralph is giving you things to check. This is very good.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: rlortie on June 04, 2008, 04:54:38 PM
Alex,

f I were to add the 2 weights like in that picture Ralph then the weight by the rim will lift the weight at the bottom half way up...

What this wheel is getting at is that a weight can be lifted with a lighter weight so it doesn't matter if both weights are now the same weight, it will move more than a normal wheel any how

My point!  Bessler wrote a lot of text with great forethought. He says a lot but but like an engineer explains little.  A few things he did make clear; First his machine would barely run with one cross-arm.  Second, if it does not turn with one unit, adding more is futile.

Your above description of "half way up" does not describe a device that will barely run. Half way means that ii is still finding a  keel point. Adding more units will not help as each set will have the same point of keel.

Adding weights to a "barely runner" makes for a better  runner, adding weights to a barely no-runner makes for a definite no-runner. 

Believe me, the Kelly/Lortie (Kellor)  design is capable of 290 degrees of positive torque rotation, with one weight, that is better than 75% of 360. Yet the remaining 70 degrees eludes us. Adding more units does not help, the machine still keels with one mechanism/weight  in the same relative position.

Good luck and I still hope you prove me wrong!

Ralph

Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: martinzurix on June 04, 2008, 05:24:44 PM
ohh  i can`t understand why peoples make things without knowledge how it may run .  from were energy in gravity wheel ?? can someone explain it to me ?   energy is dynamic process it`s need to flow from one place to other place with different energy potencial.. it like wind .  what is the wind who make gravity wheel to spin ??
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: rlortie on June 04, 2008, 06:50:15 PM
ohh  i can`t understand why peoples make things without knowledge how it may run .  from were energy in gravity wheel ?? can someone explain it to me ?   energy is dynamic process it`s need to flow from one place to other place with different energy potencial.. it like wind .  what is the wind who make gravity wheel to spin ??

IMO you are correct, only what you call "energy potential" I call gradient. Gradient is a potential force capable of producing energy.  Your dynamic process of flowing is gradient force turned into useful energy.

 All gradient force can best be described by the negative and positive posts on a battery. Energy is produced when the two are connected thus they seek a balance, (dead battery) energy is obtainable in the process.   

 Water has potential because of the gradient of its surface elevation to depth. Wind is created due to gradient between high and low atmospheric conditions. Gravity has gradient from the surface of the planet to outer space. Gravitational forces on unlike masses creates gradient between the two. Like masses on an unbalanced lever create gradient by leverage. The position of the fulcrum verses mass dictates the amount of gradient potential. Once the potential is released the wheel turns until the gradient becomes equalized (dead battery) 

One can even say there is gradient between inertial forces (static and dynamic) and kinetic energy.  Although one is considered a force and the other energy already in motion.

What we seek is the capability to keep the wheel in constant gradient by displacing the masses in an un-symmetrical  pattern, thus retaining  a gradient force potential between the two sides. Inertia and kinetic becomes the wind you seek. 

To reiterate your question;  The "wind" that turns a gravity wheel is the gradient between masses so displaced as to create a dynamic energy potential  between two sides of the wheel. In a sense, we have the knowledge to make it run, we just have not figured out the correct configuration of applying it. (where the ---- are those battery posts?)

Thats my opinion!

Ralph   
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 04, 2008, 08:57:20 PM
Ralph I will continue about my wheel on email...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: seymour85202 on June 04, 2008, 10:10:25 PM

Hello Martinzurix

    Bessler made a gravity wheel work about 400 years ago but didn't tell anyone
how it worked.  He kept it a secret.  We don't know how it worked so we can't
tell you "how it may run." 

We don't really know much about gravity and energy.  Mathamatics can describe
very well all about how a rock falls but it does not explain why.

Gravity (and magnets) is different than wind (and river current).  With wind you have
air (river has water).   Gravity has no moving particles.  Even works even in vacuum of
space.   So there is no "wind who make gravity wheel spin?".   Not easy to
understand.  Maybe nobody really does.

You maybe misunderstand why people make things here.  This is not to make
products to use or sell.  People make guess as to how gravity wheel could work.
Only way to know is to make working model to see if guess is wrong.
Is just a simple experiment.

Is ok if you do not understand how to make gravity wheel and have questions.
No one here knows how to make one either.  But we make guesses and
make experiments.  We learn.  Maybe someday we guess right.

Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on June 05, 2008, 01:42:55 AM

It always amazed me how a bumble bee can fly despite the aerodynamic impossibility.

The wheel is a very interesting concept with unknown potential...great design.

Regards...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Charlie_V on June 05, 2008, 03:28:38 AM
Alexioco, I'd like to build a model of MT 27 like you showed in your video.  It appeared like yours was built out of cardboard - a great idea if you ask me.  What are the dimensions?  You mentioned that the marble weight can't be too much or it won't return the marble to the center, I imagine that this limit is based on the size of the wheel, bigger wheel bigger weight? 

Also, are the linkages of the "imbalancing arm" (aka what the marble is attached to - I don't know what you are calling it) specific or can you play around with them.  I was thinking it might be beneficial to have the arm come around and actually rest on the axial.  Would this be possible or will it throw things off too much - I have drawn what I mean below.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Haliburton on June 05, 2008, 04:19:13 AM
Don't want to rain on the parade but i just think no matter how many levers or how you put them it will ever work.

If i was to have that same wheel with a weight on the top end and drop it, it would swing that same distance as the one in that video, if not farther.  so what is so neat about it?

the strings may help put the weight or lever into position but don't they also act as weights or levers in there own way,

i understand gravity can be turned into energy but don't you have to use the same amount of energy as what you get from it if not more, because of friction just to get it back to the next rotation?

I am not a expert at this but how can you get overunity out of something that will never change, like gravity.  And with gravity never changing and friction always slowing it down, if you do the math it just don't add up, 
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: rlortie on June 05, 2008, 05:01:59 AM
Charlie,

I am not Alex but thought I would pass on my 2 cents worth!

Also, are the linkages of the "imbalancing arm" (aka what the marble is attached to - I don't know what you are calling it) specific or can you play around with them.  I was thinking it might be beneficial to have the arm come around and actually rest on the axial.  Would this be possible or will it throw things off too much - I have drawn what I mean below.

With some designs you can let the weight rest on the axle thus relieving the ascending side of the returning weight. This design does not meet that criteria. Note that be lengthening the arm your red supporting lines are now out of symmetry.  This is going to kill any advantages when it turns 180 degrees. 

Suggest you make a copy of the above original or move it to an editing application where you can blow it up in size.
Keep in mind that it is one of a collection of drawings that do not work as the inventor had hoped. These drawings do not represent Bessler's own work but rather his collection of none-runners. They all need the main driving force that Bessler so kindly left out of his collection.

Ralph   
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: martinzurix on June 05, 2008, 10:42:58 AM
to: rlortie

yes gravity have energy gradient  it is stronger to surface and less stronger on highter altitude its like air pressure .

gravity is flow of energy vortex it flows from big bang and make implosion result of this implosion is forming materr -planets-plants -animals


if you want use gravity wheel you need to make one side shielded from it ..  because on each side of wheel energy gradient is equal.

you can`t trick gravity by strange trajectories of weights or different combinations. you need real difference in weights on each sides.

you need one side to rotate against gravity flow .


gravity is implosion force  only known way to defeat it is explosion - all energies in universe have implosion vortex direction.

if Besler get his wheel work in not bee made only with pendelum weight combinatinos... there bee some `elprimo` mover what helped passing  COG !!!


v.shauberger in his book `energy of water`   took about forrel-fish what dont move but stays  against flow , may bee primomover is something like this...

bumble bee make air vortex and area of low pressure what sucked in bees body... something like UFO`s :) koanda effect...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 05, 2008, 02:38:01 PM
Alexioco, I'd like to build a model of MT 27 like you showed in your video.  It appeared like yours was built out of cardboard - a great idea if you ask me.  What are the dimensions?  You mentioned that the marble weight can't be too much or it won't return the marble to the center, I imagine that this limit is based on the size of the wheel, bigger wheel bigger weight? 

Also, are the linkages of the "imbalancing arm" (aka what the marble is attached to - I don't know what you are calling it) specific or can you play around with them.  I was thinking it might be beneficial to have the arm come around and actually rest on the axial.  Would this be possible or will it throw things off too much - I have drawn what I mean below.

Hello Charlie, thanks for your interest  :)
I have played around with the wheel quite a bit and if you want it to rest on the axle, then the lever will have to be made shorter, if you don't adjust the lever and weight and string correctly the weight will not self lift, once the lever is attached, the end of the lever (where the weight will be attached) needs to be in line with where it is attached but just to the side of the axle.

Here is a computer drawing of my wheel, I copied it from my wheel so you can see how everything is attached and positioned...

Note that the weight does not touch the rim of the wheel, this allows for the weight to pull down on the wheel and to keep pulling down as its guided into the axle...

Its amazing, I have never seen anything like it...

Anyway now a few other things to note...

1. If the weight is to heavy, then it wont lift, why? Because the lever arm itself acts as a tiny weight in order to lift the bigger weight that little help it needs to move it up (unless you start the weight from half way up the wheel then it flies up)

2. If you do add say a 2 ounce weight, then add a 1 ounce weight at the top where the lever is attached, in fact the weight should be able to weigh less than 1 ounce...


3. Finally you can attach the wheel and the weight may lift but you can improve it by messing with it, making slight changes until you have a really effective position where the weight does not just lift up but accelerates up  :D
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 05, 2008, 02:46:58 PM
Also, ever thought that Besslers wheel may have looked like this?

(http://i26.tinypic.com/2hxqbt1.jpg)

You could play with this combined with some of the other wheels including MT 27 and may have a runner...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Charlie_V on June 05, 2008, 03:32:57 PM
Thanks Alexioco, when I get some time I'll try to build one.  To all the others, yes I realize that this setup alone will not work.  But I believe we need to think outside the wheel - attaching more arms to the inside is futile.  I have an idea I would like to try but I want to experiment with the arm thing first to get a feel for it.

Thanks,
Charlie
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Haliburton on June 06, 2008, 03:03:00 AM
you guys are just wasting your time on this wheel thing.

If you get 1 pound of force going down you need the same amount to go back up

no matter how you put the levers or strings ETC

if you had zero friction then you and make it go forever

until you get rid of friction it will never ever ever change

with all those levers in all your just fooling yourselves

add another element in there, something that is known to create force

then you might get a result worth working on  ;)
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: AB Hammer on June 06, 2008, 03:38:31 AM
@Haliburton

Have a little faith. There is magic in the air, and magic in the ground, as you look at something cool the wheel goes round and round.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Haliburton on June 06, 2008, 04:22:02 AM
there might be magic in the air and ground, but you sure in hell are not gonna tap in to it with strings and levers.

IT WILL NOT WORK,,,,,, EVER
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Charlie_V on June 06, 2008, 05:43:04 AM
When I was a kid, I wanted to buy a tiny plastic Christmas tree.  I didn't have the 20 dollars it took to buy it.  I was explaining this to my mother when a little old couple came up and gave us 20 dollars.  My mother hesitantly took the money, looked at me, then turned to thank them and they were gone (they were standing to my right as we sat at a table).  By their looks they were in their 80-90's.  80 year old people do not disappear in thin air.  The closest exit was about 30 feet away in front of me, even in my best physical endurance I could not sprint out that door in less than 2 seconds - and I'm 27!  We asked anyone else in the restaurant if they had seen an old couple... we were the only ones there besides the waitresses.

Conclusion, ghosts had just materialized and gave us 20 dollars....

Quote
there might be magic in the air and ground, but you sure in hell are not gonna tap in to it with strings and levers.

Ghosts had just materialized and gave us 20 dollars.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Onevoice on June 06, 2008, 06:36:04 AM
Sorry to butt in gents,

Don't be too hasty to dismiss multiple lever assemblies. The real issue is whether energy was gained by even a partial cycle. When the wheel is allowed to start at its highest energy state, it is translating a small amount of gravitational energy into rotational energy, and the assembly drops to its lowest energy state. If it requires at least as much energy to return it to its original state then the idea is a loser, and no energy was gained. If not, then multiple assemblies could cover ground for each other and a repetitive cycle could be formed. AKA what some believe Bessler found. Note: the descriptions of his wheels mention multiple noises per each cycle.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: utilitarian on June 06, 2008, 07:46:13 AM
Sorry to butt in gents,

Don't be too hasty to dismiss multiple lever assemblies. The real issue is whether energy was gained by even a partial cycle.

My head is asploding.  No energy is gained by a gravity wheel ever.  Never ever ever.  At no point during its little turn.  Not on the fall, and not on the rise, not on the acceleration, not on the deceleration.  Potential energy is traded for kinetic, plus frictional losses in form of heat, sound, what have you.  Then the kinetic is traded for potential.  That is all, end of story.  You are dropping weights, and you are lifting those same weights.  How can anyone think you can possibly get ahead?
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: rlortie on June 06, 2008, 08:58:23 AM
 If you do not believe there is any hope for a gravity powered wheel then I  suggest you do a little research on this gentlman.  Read his treaties to Sir Isaac Newton regarding his eye witness report on Bessler's wheel.

http://research.leidenuniv.nl/index.php3?c=54
http://www.historyofscience.nl/author.cfm?RecordId=3

['s Gravesande was a generalist who made few original contributions to science, yet he was perhaps the most famous scientist in Europe. In 1721 and 1722, he made visits to Kassel to examine a perpetual motion machine constructed by a certain Orffyreus (and concluded that apparently perpetual motion machines were possible). 's Gravesande declined invitations from Peter the Great of Russia (1724) and Frederick II of Prussia (1740) to join their academies.]
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: martinzurix on June 06, 2008, 10:46:15 AM
reality is .. no magic in air !!!

in nature only two forces .. explosive and implosive. wheel have only potencial energy.

i believe some kind of aparatus will work ..  but like someone say reason is not in wheel but outside of wheel.. wheel is only visible part like propeler on helicopter ...

besler show only wheel but hided primo mover main part of aparatus . in nature nothing moves without reason.   all planets all winds all fluids move
because there are impulse from big bang and all goes in direction of explosive and implosive vortexsies .  look on galaxsy look on planets around stars...   every were is central energy force and outer vacum - energy gradient.   if you want use gravity you need something like artificial black hole on opozite side of wheel !!
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 06, 2008, 02:09:05 PM
I have seen so many people on this forum saying its not possible, why? because they are limited in their imagination, they cannot speculate out of their box (boxes shouldn't even govern you anyway) it takes a creative mind to sort the perpetual motion, so we need to draw, build and test, then learn the little qualities each wheel has.
MT 27 has a quality none of you none believers could have thought of because you deny it in the first place! Small things occupy small minds...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: AB Hammer on June 06, 2008, 02:16:15 PM
Those who can not think outside the box, are in a world with 6 little walls and until they can look out they can not see the light.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: utilitarian on June 06, 2008, 03:41:56 PM
I have seen so many people on this forum saying its not possible, why? because they are limited in their imagination, they cannot speculate out of their box (boxes shouldn't even govern you anyway) it takes a creative mind to sort the perpetual motion, so we need to draw, build and test, then learn the little qualities each wheel has.
MT 27 has a quality none of you none believers could have thought of because you deny it in the first place! Small things occupy small minds...

This is a very common fallacy in logic.  You take a known positive thing - namely not giving up and being creative - and combine it with a futile act.  We as a society have in fact been living out of the box.  You are the one still in the box.  We have long ago decided that gravity wheels cannot work, due to some very basic laws that govern the universe, laws to which there are no exceptions.  So we rely on outside sources of energy to make wheels move.  But you are still limited to what is inside the box, trying to make the wheel move on its own.  It is not going to do that.

It's like putting two equal weights on a teeter-totter and expecting them to spontaneously rise and lower on their own, making the teeter-totter move on its own.  It is a dead end.

Look, what happened with Bessler happened too long ago.  We will never know exactly what went down.  However that wheel moved, there had to be an input of energy somehow, because that is how everything in the universe works.  Bessler lived in our universe, so he had to obey those laws too.  Ask yourself, what is more likely.  Bessler parted the red sea like a god, standing physics upside down in a manner never before and never after repeated, or some witnesses got their story wrong or missed a key detail in observing the test?
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 06, 2008, 04:12:56 PM
This is a very common fallacy in logic.  You take a known positive thing - namely not giving up and being creative - and combine it with a futile act.  We as a society have in fact been living out of the box.  You are the one still in the box.  We have long ago decided that gravity wheels cannot work, due to some very basic laws that govern the universe, laws to which there are no exceptions.  So we rely on outside sources of energy to make wheels move.  But you are still limited to what is inside the box, trying to make the wheel move on its own.  It is not going to do that.

It's like putting two equal weights on a teeter-totter and expecting them to spontaneously rise and lower on their own, making the teeter-totter move on its own.  It is a dead end.

Look, what happened with Bessler happened too long ago.  We will never know exactly what went down.  However that wheel moved, there had to be an input of energy somehow, because that is how everything in the universe works.  Bessler lived in our universe, so he had to obey those laws too.  Ask yourself, what is more likely.  Bessler parted the red sea like a god, standing physics upside down in a manner never before and never after repeated, or some witnesses got their story wrong or missed a key detail in observing the test?

Well you tell me this then, How can one possibly rule out the universe just like that, scientists say we have evolved from apes which is absolutely rubbish, total nonsense, just look what parrots can do, they can mimic people, I don't see chimps doing that, also scientists say that we came from thin air, No, it took a power and very high intelligence to make us so I?m not going to trust scientist when they say perpetual motion is impossible either, yes some are clever and right what they say, but science cannot prove everything but a creative mind can take one step further just like Einstein said "imagination is more important than knowledge  ;)"
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: gwhy! on June 06, 2008, 04:23:27 PM
  However that wheel moved, there had to be an input of energy somehow, because that is how everything in the universe works. 

but how do you know ?
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: utilitarian on June 06, 2008, 04:38:03 PM
Well you tell me this then, How can one possibly rule out the universe just like that, scientists say we have evolved from apes which is absolutely rubbish, total nonsense, just look what parrots can do, they can mimic people, I don't see chimps doing that, also scientists say that we came from thin air, No, it took a power and very high intelligence to make us so I?m not going to trust scientist when they say perpetual motion is impossible either, yes some are clever and right what they say, but science cannot prove everything but a creative mind can take one step further just like Einstein said "imagination is more important than knowledge  ;)"

Let me see if I have this straight.  You do not believe we evolved from apes.  Fine.  (Evolution scientists do not say this either.  We and the apes evolved from a common ancestor.)  But whatever, there are gaps in fossil records, so fine.  But you do believe that we evolved from parrots just because parrots can imitate the human voice?  Say what, Willis? 

Really, all you had to say is that you were an Intelligent Design proponent.  That explains everything.  Good luck with your Jesus wheel.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 06, 2008, 04:58:11 PM
this is how he knows...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: gwhy! on June 06, 2008, 05:19:50 PM
but how do you know ?

this is how he knows...


Oh right so he was told this was the case then and he didnt work it out for himself. From the way he was speaking I thought he had all the answers.  ;)
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: utilitarian on June 06, 2008, 05:22:40 PM
but how do you know ?

How do I know?  Here is an analogy.

You watch a performer.  The performer shows you an empty cup and five dice in his hand.  He invites you to examine the cup, which looks empty, the dice, which look normal, and his hands, which are empty.

The performer puts 5 dice in the cup and shakes the cup vigorously for a long time, a whole minute.  He shakes to the left, he shakes to the right, he shakes it all around.  Then he smacks the cup face down on the table, lifts it up, and lo and behold, there are six dice there.

Now, what happened?  One of several things.  Maybe there was a secret compartment in the cup.  Maybe he dropped a die from his sleeve and slipped it into the cup.  Maybe the table had a secret compartment and spit out an extra die.  Who knows for sure?  One thing we do know is that a die did not spontaneously appear from the magic shake.

Oh, and this magic trick happened 400 years ago.  So all we have are written accounts from the people who examined the cup at the time.  We do not have the actual cup, table or magician.

Oh, and the magician got mad when people kept trying to find out the secret of the trick, so he burned all his records before his death.

Now, someone can spend their entire lifetime trying to imitate the magic cup shake, making sure you shake 3 to the left and 2 to the right and so forth, or you can just say it was a trick.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: gwhy! on June 06, 2008, 06:05:12 PM
How do I know?  Here is an analogy.
..................

Now, what happened?  One of several things.  Maybe there was a secret compartment in the cup.  Maybe he dropped a die from his sleeve and slipped it into the cup.  Maybe the table had a secret compartment and spit out an extra die.  Who knows for sure?  One thing we do know is that a die did not spontaneously appear from the magic shake.



Thats right "Who knows for sure" indeed. And your quite right about the One thing we do know is that a die did not spontaneously appear from the magic shake BUT if you would like to perform this trick then you would go out your way to find out the way it was done. I dont think this was a very good analogy to be honest.

the original question "how do you know?" was really intendend for this statement you made " because that is how everything in the universe works." what perhaps you should have said was " because that is our understanding at the current moment on how everything in the universe works."
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: AB Hammer on June 06, 2008, 06:39:13 PM
The belief in impossibilities is the seal on the box, and until you can learn that impossibilities is only the limitations of the mind to possibilities. Then you can see the light.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: rlortie on June 06, 2008, 07:05:21 PM
My favorite quote;

"If man can write about it, man will eventually build it"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne

Jules Verne's novels have been noted for being startlingly accurate anticipations of modern times. Paris in the 20th Century is an often cited example of this as it arguably describes air conditioning, automobiles, the Internet, television, and other modern conveniences very similar to their real world counterparts.

[Another example is From the Earth to the Moon, which is uncannily similar to the real Apollo Program, as three astronauts are launched from the Florida peninsula and recovered through a splash landing. In the book, the spacecraft is launched from "Tampa Town"; Tampa, Florida is approximately 130 miles from NASA's actual launching site at Cape Canaveral. [3]

In other works, Verne predicted the inventions of helicopters, submarines, projectors, jukeboxes, and other later devices.

He also predicted the existence of underwater hydrothermal vents that were not discovered until years after he wrote about them.]

Ralph
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 06, 2008, 09:23:45 PM
For those who don't even believe in the wheel, why are you in the gravity section? I can understand if you are here to stop us wasting time, but we don't think we are....
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: broli on June 06, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
It's the same with religion. People don't like it when their religion gets bashed so they attack back. In away PM people are bashing the newtonian religion and the believers don't like it. They don't understand how much fun it is to find loopholes. Everything man made has flaws. PC hackers know this the best.

And some don't seem to understand that extensive expermentation will make these flaws pop up. Using the same math to prove it would be more fun since then you beat it in it's own game. But most of the time you can't prove something by using the same thing you're disproving. So or you come with a whole different set of mathematics for it or you just prove it through experimentation. The latter is the easiest and most rewarding.
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on June 06, 2008, 09:51:19 PM

I read of different experiments that showed that thought can influence matter.

They are making small objects vanish into small a vortex...including an accomplished inventor who told me personally that he was doing it.

Where did these objects go...do they appear in another dimension as a paranormal event ?  Nobody knows.

In reality we are limited only by our own imagination.

Just let your mind run free.

What ever you dwell upon will be more likely to occur, so make sure your inner dialog is where it should be.

Regards...
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Haliburton on June 07, 2008, 01:38:44 AM
The center of the wheel is just a axle...  a teeter totter   --------{}-------- 

It will just balance it self out unless you have another force to over come friction and or gravity


SO YOU DONT THINK monkeys are smart.... click this link

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ace.mu.nu/archives/orangfish.jpg&imgrefurl=http://minx.cc/%3Fpost%3D261177&h=336&w=468&sz=67&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=79Qzvx6zrBJvyM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmonkey%2Band%2Ba%2Bspear%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN
Title: Re: Self Rising Weight (MT 27)
Post by: Alexioco on June 07, 2008, 02:30:29 AM
The center of the wheel is just a axle...  a teeter totter   --------{}-------- 

It will just balance it self out unless you have another force to over come friction and or gravity


SO YOU DONT THINK monkeys are smart.... click this link

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ace.mu.nu/archives/orangfish.jpg&imgrefurl=http://minx.cc/%3Fpost%3D261177&h=336&w=468&sz=67&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=79Qzvx6zrBJvyM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmonkey%2Band%2Ba%2Bspear%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN


lol hey its my uncle Jim fishing there, don't take it out of him  ;)