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Author Topic: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor  (Read 17314 times)

Offline utilitarian

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2008, 05:42:16 AM »
She had constructed a pinwheel shaped "fan" of flat magnets, and introduced a fairly large rod magnet in front of the pinwheel, The magnet pinwheel spun like crazy.

I totally believe this story, but alone, it is not very promising.  Not trying to put a damper on things, but it is very easy to get magnets to move while holding something in front of them with your hands.  The motion of your body, even though minor, is what creates motion in the magnets.  As soon as you fasten down the rod or whatever it is that was introduced, motion stops.

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Offline Dact

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2008, 05:43:14 AM »
Hmmmmm,
ok I have investigated a bit, let's see what I found.

* I made my model without setting any force field and putting out the gravity.
* I set electrostatics on to simulate magnets.
* I put a magnet near the fan. Depending on the position of this magnet the system works or not.
* All is made with standard materials in the program.
* Error metrics are minimized in this model to make it more accuracy than standard accuracy in the program. There seems to be no gliches like subit forces made by error metrics.*
* The system accelerates by itself reaching a terminal velocity depending on air resistance (what is set to 0.3). The system works with higher values.

What do you think? A bit strange, no?

Mandatory picture and model


xnonix,

Very intriguing. I agree, a bit strange! But not impossible. Your .WM2D file, even though you turned off the external forces, produced almost the same force vectors as my original model. Maybe it's because it's a 2d program, I don't know. A really good 3d program is really needed to explore this phenomena further.

BTW, I thank you for the credits in the program, but the model is mine. Taking nothing away from nightlife, as it was he who persuaded me to post in the first place. He has an equally intriguing idea, but I needed to set the record straight. The WM2D file was mine, and as such, am
responsible, whether it be criticism or not.

If you would, I implore all readers of this subject to bear with me for just a bit to hear me out on some observations I have made over the years. I am not a graduate of any university or college. I did attend college for a year before leaving for the U.S. Air Force after one year during the Vietnam War, but I have had no further formal training in physics since then. I have, however, worked in the security and and alarm industry for almost 30 years now. For many years, I installed and serviced commercial and residential burglar alarm systems, which of course meant utilizing small window and door magnets for the sensors. Too get straight to the point, many of these magnets over the years would become weak, and have to be replaced, after causing false alarms because of their decreased effect on the opposing reed switch. How did I know they needed replaced? Because they became lighter in weight! Now, I know many are now getting ready to change forums, but please hear me out.
Most of the magnets I noticed that seemed to be lighter had been in place for over 20 years. Has anyone out there weighed a brand new magnet, set it aside for 20 years, and then reweigh it? I didn't, but I contend that there was a difference in weight between the old one and a new replacement, which was noticeable, just in juggling each in both hands. Why is this important? I think that is obvious. If true, it means that mass has disappeared, and turned into what? According to Einstein, it could only be energy. Not a classical force, but energy.

Just wanted to throw this out for those whose training is much greater than mine, and whom may possess the modern instrumentation to prove or disprove it.

Please allow me to make one final observation. i just want to stress that the model I prosed was based on a real, though dated, observation. However, the dynamics are the same. Think about it! A single cylindrical magnet, approaching at 90 degrees to a "fan" of equal, fan arrayed flat magnets. The forces upon all flat magnets should theoretically be the same, causing a repulsion equally against all magnets in the "fan", just as the wind against a windmill. The opposite poles would seem to be very insignificant as far as "cancellation" goes. After years of working with magnets, feeling all the forces against a variety of materials, I just feel it! Not very scientific, maybe, but POSSIBLE!

Thank you,

Dact


Offline Dact

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2008, 06:29:56 AM »
I totally believe this story, but alone, it is not very promising.  Not trying to put a damper on things, but it is very easy to get magnets to move while holding something in front of them with your hands.  The motion of your body, even though minor, is what creates motion in the magnets.  As soon as you fasten down the rod or whatever it is that was introduced, motion stops.

Thanks for the response!. I totally agree with you on your premise of moving a magnet in to the proximity of a like-poled magnet. As long as you keep moving the held magnet, the other will continue to move. No quarrels here. BUT, if you have a "fan" array, with the fan at, say 45 degrees to the "held" magnet, then you have now transferred the energy from "0" degrees, relevant to the 'held" magnet, to a position of 90 degrees in a circular, or rotary, array which will now no longer require the "held" magnet to move any further to achieve the continuous force necessary to keep the array spinning. Instead of your hand having to keep moving, the perpendicular, spinning "array" will now disperse the excess energy.

Simply put, If you place two, like poles next to each other, the potential energy is there almost forever, until either one is finally released.

This is the best I can do to try to explain this theory. I have not yet built a model, due to a severe herniated disc I'm dealing with, but I hope to soon. I please invite anyone else to do so with my encouragement.

Good luck,

Dact

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2008, 06:29:56 AM »
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Offline xnonix

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2008, 08:21:54 AM »
Sorry Dact, I missread your first post and i didn't get it right. English is not my first language. Sorry.  ::)
The model and original idea was from Dact, and I will change it in the next mods of the idea I will release.

xnonix

Offline Creativity

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 12:00:22 PM »
Quote
Please allow me to make one final observation. i just want to stress that the model I prosed was based on a real, though dated, observation. However, the dynamics are the same. Think about it! A single cylindrical magnet, approaching at 90 degrees to a "fan" of equal, fan arrayed flat magnets. The forces upon all flat magnets should theoretically be the same, causing a repulsion equally against all magnets in the "fan", just as the wind against a windmill. The opposite poles would seem to be very insignificant as far as "cancellation" goes. After years of working with magnets, feeling all the forces against a variety of materials, I just feel it! Not very scientific, maybe, but POSSIBLE!

Thank you,

Dact


Hey Dact,
wind fan works on different principe.It is a force of air molecules hitting the fan blade and bouncing off ,that produce the reaction force on a fan blade(direction opposite to bounced off air molecule).With approaching front of a fan with a magnet,u will only get is spinning if u have any fraction of force in the parallel plane of fan(perpendiculair to its axis).It is more like a normal fan,that u want to get spinning by placing it with its face to the ground,hoping that gravity will pull the blades(and it does) and make the fan to spin(but it won't).
There is simply no force in the direction of spinning(perpendiculair to the fan shaft)...

is this what u r proposing?

If u want to set the main magnet under the slight angle u will have fan blades that are in stronger field(oposing to the movement because they have to overcome field strength to come closer to the main magnet) and the one who are in weaker field(making the movement ).



Nice idea would be to use some magnetic particles to accelerate in magnet field (magnet behid the fan) and hitting the blades on the way to the magnet.it would work like a wind fan.Now if we could get them out of the field and place  back in front of a fan,it could work for ever.But we still have no magnet shielding :|

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 12:00:22 PM »
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Offline Dact

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 05:58:56 PM »
Hey Dact,
wind fan works on different principe.It is a force of air molecules hitting the fan blade and bouncing off ,that produce the reaction force on a fan blade(direction opposite to bounced off air molecule).With approaching front of a fan with a magnet,u will only get is spinning if u have any fraction of force in the parallel plane of fan(perpendiculair to its axis).It is more like a normal fan,that u want to get spinning by placing it with its face to the ground,hoping that gravity will pull the blades(and it does) and make the fan to spin(but it won't).
There is simply no force in the direction of spinning(perpendiculair to the fan shaft)...

is this what u r proposing?

If u want to set the main magnet under the slight angle u will have fan blades that are in stronger field(oposing to the movement because they have to overcome field strength to come closer to the main magnet) and the one who are in weaker field(making the movement ).



Nice idea would be to use some magnetic particles to accelerate in magnet field (magnet behid the fan) and hitting the blades on the way to the magnet.it would work like a wind fan.Now if we could get them out of the field and place  back in front of a fan,it could work for ever.But we still have no magnet shielding :|

Creativity,

Actually, I only used a 45 degree angle in my explanation as an example to help visualize the principle, but in actuality I guess I just muddied the waters even further!    ;)

I originally envisioned that the blades would have only be tuned to just enough of an angle off of true perpendicular as to allow the repelling force of the stationary magnet to begin "pushing" the blades at a constant pressure, thereby steadily increasing the velocity. This is what I attempted to simulate in my WM2D model. The shallow angle would also seem to greatly reduce the interfering "attracting" polarity from the reverse side of the blades.

However, your idea intrigues me greatly. What if, depending on the shape of the fan, you placed a similar "fixed" magnet behind the fan, but with the opposite polarity. This would in effect create a mirrored device, yet using only 1 fan. The opposite fixed magnets would be in attraction to each other, but in repulsion to their respective surfaces of the blades. Would this be in effect what you were thinking? It seems plausible, but more suggestions and input will be needed here. Hope anyone reading this has an opinion.

Thanks,

Dact

Offline Dact

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2008, 05:28:12 AM »
Sorry Dact, I missread your first post and i didn't get it right. English is not my first language. Sorry.  ::)
The model and original idea was from Dact, and I will change it in the next mods of the idea I will release.

xnonix

NP xnonix. I am anxious to see what your next mod holds!

Dact

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2008, 05:28:12 AM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 05:54:08 PM »
today i got some idea  :) still need to research in though.i imagined a magnetic fluid/emulsion used to propell the small turbine.Fluid would use the magnetic field of a magnet to move itself.What if there was a simple ,reversible chemical reaction allowing for example to bind ferromagnetic into diamagnetic molecule...we could use this reaction to remove otherwise magnetic fluid from the magnetic field.then reverse the reaction to make it back a magnetic substance and fropell the turbine. :)

Offline Dact

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2008, 06:50:09 AM »
today i got some idea  :) still need to research in though.i imagined a magnetic fluid/emulsion used to propell the small turbine.Fluid would use the magnetic field of a magnet to move itself.What if there was a simple ,reversible chemical reaction allowing for example to bind ferromagnetic into diamagnetic molecule...we could use this reaction to remove otherwise magnetic fluid from the magnetic field.then reverse the reaction to make it back a magnetic substance and fropell the turbine. :)


I think I understand. This would be similar to a closed loop steam engine, but instead of condensing the steam back to water to reuse, it would chemically revert the fluid back to be reused. Is this correct?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2008, 06:50:09 AM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 01:33:28 PM »
yes exactly  :) now i just dont know if (for example) iron can be made non ferromagnetic when surrounded by some other molecules(kind of a shield on atomic level).
Like blood,has some iron in its but is it still ferromagnetic?
i found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrite
as an easy and fast example,it is diamagnetic and reacts less to the magnetic field than iron.

Offline xnonix

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 02:13:32 PM »
Dact,
the fan model working in WM2D is probably a bug in the program with bezier curves used in blades. I have tried other forms made by rectangles and doesn't work (remember to setup high accuracy). As we know rectangles works fine with electromagnetics in wm2d, so we have to make our model with rectangles (1 or more per blade).
The only way you have to test the curves blades approach works is by constructing the model for real.
If works then you are rich and you will have all the honors. Hope you share something with me.  ::).
If doesn't work, we will be here tomorrow to try again.

xnonix

Edit: When you make your real model , first look at this for you stator (you will have more success options). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6CENdvG4c
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 02:45:05 PM by xnonix »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 02:13:32 PM »
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Offline Dact

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Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2008, 03:33:48 AM »
Dact,
the fan model working in WM2D is probably a bug in the program with bezier curves used in blades. I have tried other forms made by rectangles and doesn't work (remember to setup high accuracy). As we know rectangles works fine with electromagnetics in wm2d, so we have to make our model with rectangles (1 or more per blade).
The only way you have to test the curves blades approach works is by constructing the model for real.
If works then you are rich and you will have all the honors. Hope you share something with me.  ::).
If doesn't work, we will be here tomorrow to try again.

xnonix

Edit: When you make your real model , first look at this for you stator (you will have more success options). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6CENdvG4c

Thanks for spending the time to investigate this theory. I thought the same about a bug, but I believe there is something more to it than that. Rectangles work in WM2D only because they are aligned only along the X,Y axis, and cannot be "angled" to simulate the "fan". The main reason I used polygons was that I could distort them to offset the center of gravity enough to simulate a "Z" coordinate.

Of course, you are right that the only way to test this is with a real model. I've ordered the magnets to do this, and they should be here in three days. I will let you know what I find. Thanks!

Dact

 

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