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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: broli on May 26, 2008, 05:31:23 PM

Title: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 26, 2008, 05:31:23 PM
Seeing as though pushing something around requires a lot less work than bringing it to a higher potential I thought of an idea.

http://broli.dommel.be/slidewheel.avi

Basiclly the video shows the rods beinging pushed at exactly the right moment to disbalance the wheel. The piston IS driven by a motor, but my logic tells me that I can get more power out of the bigger wheel than I need to drive the piston. Two questions arise. Also do note that weels can be used to easy the friction.

1) Do I indeed get more power out of the bigger wheel than I need to drive the small one?
2) At second thought there is no second question. It had to do with the synchronization but that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: AB Hammer on May 26, 2008, 07:38:44 PM
@broli

 Interesting concept. Timing to keep from jamming might be a problem. But you don't need it to run a gravity wheel, even though it looks like it could work as an OU design but you need it to shift quicker to get enough energy built up. Heck I just had my thumb nail nearly tor off from my wheel, and I couldn't be happier. Another prime mover design.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: edelind on May 26, 2008, 08:31:58 PM
It may be OU if you use proper rollers. Anyway, the synchronization could be a real problem in your design, as the speed will most probably increase. Maybe it's easier to use magnets and electromagnets which will synchronize electronically (magnets on bars' end and electromagnets instead of the piston). Or, to avoid the vertical friction from the bars and the push piston, to use magnet balls, pushed toward the pistons by an electromagnet.

Just some thoughts...
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: Alexioco on May 26, 2008, 10:20:54 PM
Seeing as though pushing something around requires a lot less work than bringing it to a higher potential I thought of an idea.

http://broli.dommel.be/slidewheel.avi

Basiclly the video shows the rods beinging pushed at exactly the right moment to disbalance the wheel. The piston IS driven by a motor, but my logic tells me that I can get more power out of the bigger wheel than I need to drive the piston. Two questions arise. Also do note that weels can be used to easy the friction.

1) Do I indeed get more power out of the bigger wheel than I need to drive the small one?
2) At second thought there is no second question. It had to do with the synchronization but that shouldn't be a problem.

Nice thinking Broli, I enjoyed watching that, quite interesting, maybe the wheel and piston could work with each other, perpetuating itself...
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 27, 2008, 01:39:06 PM
Oke instead of starting a new thread I decided to just expand on this one with a different idea on almost the same model.

http://broli.dommel.be/slidewheelV2.avi


The idea would work as following. At 12 oclock a stretched locked spring attaches to the rod and then gets unlocked. This will cause the spring to retract pulling the rod with it till almost 10 oclock. Then a lock sets in and afterwards the rod gets deaatched using maybe another smaller spring( or again a synchronization method  :P). The spring returns to it's horizontal position and the process repeats.

Of course friction can be the evil doer, there's a 50% chance of succes since in the good case the wheel will start to accelerate and you're home free. or fricton will not make the spring pass the locking postion in order to repeat the process.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: LittleHelper on May 27, 2008, 01:56:07 PM
Synchronyze the two wheels with a pulley, and get a pole to shift everytime the little wheel pushes.

Just an idea, I know there has to low friction all around.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: LittleHelper on May 27, 2008, 01:59:51 PM
Besides, if you use magnets, its already in the works: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4540.960.html
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 27, 2008, 02:51:55 PM
You can use magents but this might be then a better idea...

(http://broli.dommel.be/slidewheelV2.PNG)

After a while the wheel even will start to accelerate, this will in turn cause more current to be generated and thus having to give an even smaller current ratio to the electromagnets...not only that but even centrifugal forces will start aiding after a while
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: Alexioco on May 27, 2008, 04:10:55 PM
Problem with the spring idea is that you now need a force to pull the spring back down and connect with the rod so it can pull the rod up again...
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: Bulbz on May 27, 2008, 05:44:45 PM
Seeing as though pushing something around requires a lot less work than bringing it to a higher potential I thought of an idea.

http://broli.dommel.be/slidewheel.avi

Basiclly the video shows the rods beinging pushed at exactly the right moment to disbalance the wheel. The piston IS driven by a motor, but my logic tells me that I can get more power out of the bigger wheel than I need to drive the piston. Two questions arise. Also do note that weels can be used to easy the friction.

1) Do I indeed get more power out of the bigger wheel than I need to drive the small one?
2) At second thought there is no second question. It had to do with the synchronization but that shouldn't be a problem.


Very interesting, somthing may even materialise from this. It looks like a method of controlling a large energy with a smaller energy. Well done mate  ;).

It may be a good idea to stck permanent magnets on the ends of the sliders, and replace the piston with a timed-pulsed electromagnet so that it can pull the sliders out of balance.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 27, 2008, 06:46:10 PM

Very interesting, somthing may even materialise from this. It looks like a method of controlling a large energy with a smaller energy. Well done mate  ;).

It may be a good idea to stck permanent magnets on the ends of the sliders, and replace the piston with a timed-pulsed electromagnet so that it can pull the sliders out of balance.

That may be another idea. This idea sounds so simple that it ought to have been tried already  ;D. I should ask one of those archer guys to try such a thing since their system is exactly this one but using another moving method.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 27, 2008, 08:57:13 PM
So that brings us down to two desings. I think if I ask nicely, one of archers machine builders could try this out. While the second one is easier to hack in their build, the first one seems imo more promising.

(http://broli.dommel.be/slidewheelV2V3.JPG)
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 28, 2008, 12:44:38 PM
I just noticed there's not much uniqueness about this design after some research. Pulsing coils and using perm magnets seems to be all over the place. Bedini and many others are doing just that.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: xnonix on May 29, 2008, 01:52:46 PM
Hi Broli,
Congrats you have found Overunity!

Ok, i'm a bit excited if this is real, i'll explain you.

I have been playing with your concept in wm2d to prove overunity:
- First I have put a pin friction on the generator wheel where we can measure the power dissipated (generated) by the generator wheel.
- Second I have put a rigid joint that only activates when the generator wheel wants to go backwards. Just like the rear axis of a bike.
- Third I have sinchronized the motor wheel and piston to probe that 1 motor wheel loop make 1/2 generator wheel loop (This wheel is way to heavy compared with motor wheel).

I have put some measurements data:
The power generated is much more bigger than the power in the motor.
The COP scalability is dependant on the lever weight. In my example COP is about 25. Air is on. And pin frictions are on.

Easy to implement with bikes parts.

Below mandatory picture and model.

xnonix
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 29, 2008, 02:05:22 PM
Wow you sure made a very clean setup there. This is very intresting indeed. You also got me excitedt meight. I'm curious as to how you measure the power on both wheels?
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 30, 2008, 11:09:09 AM
Check your pm box xonix!
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: hartiberlin on May 30, 2008, 07:27:58 PM
@xnonix,
very interesting design.
You seem to be already a pro with WM2D.

But I don?t understand why it has a COP bigger as 1,
cause normally, if you let an unbalanced lever arm go at 9 o?clock,
it will convert all its kinetic energy back to potential energy,so it will reach
without friction its endpoint at 3 o?clock again.

So how do you gain energy this way ?
This design contradicts the normal physics formulars...Hmmm.-..
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: broli on May 30, 2008, 07:48:46 PM
I think he's measuring the power lost by friction, seeing it as a load. But I mentioned to xnonix that the power indicated by the small motor is not correct. Since if you change the mass of the sliding lever the power won't change.But the following method might help. By adding half the mass of the big lever to the piston head you should account for this. The cool part is that it's still indicating overunity.

The hard part will be storing that excess power and reusing it on the wheel to close the loop.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: hartiberlin on May 30, 2008, 11:07:29 PM
Normally, if you apply friction, you can only extract the energy
from 9 to 6 o?clock,
but to get it back up on its own to about 3 o?clock you
don?t have to apply friction,
otherwise the leverarm will only go to 5 o?clock or simular height...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Pushing it!
Post by: xnonix on May 31, 2008, 02:27:38 PM
Hi Stephan and Broli,

yesterday I was chating with Broli. The power measure in the motor is not correct. Anyway, to prove overunity I wanted to close de loop. What I did is to discharge the lever wheel into a rotational spring and after it stops the spring is discharged in the piston wheel for raising the lever. But the lever doesn't pass the center of the wheel  :-\. So, no overunity in this system. I will post the system (closed loop) study later.
WM2D have lots of bugs. The measure of power in motor gives the same result as torque. You can test it.

So all the excitement  is off now

xnonix