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Author Topic: Interesting experiment with an transformer, 2 lamps, diodes and an magnet  (Read 46309 times)

Offline GM

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...You would need an inductance meter to determine the coils inductance to assit you in selecting the correct cap value though.

Carl, unfortunately I dont own such a inductance meter. :-(

Regards  Markus

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Offline GM

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@ all replicators: Please notice there is a change in the circuit draft (again) new draft

Markus

Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Markus,
you really have to measure input power and compare it
to both output powers at the 2 lamps.
Otherwise we would only suggest, that your
circuit is just at better efficiency, when you place the
magnet onto the core.
As this could influence the saturation of the core and this
way the energy transfer via the core, the core then could
just work as a better transformer and also store more energy
for the kickback Back EMF.
So to know, if thei circuit is overunity you must measure
input power and all output powers and compare them.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

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Offline GM

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you really have to measure input power and compare it
to both output powers at the 2 lamps.

Stefan,
look at this scopeshots I postesd already: klick here
Is it possible to calculate the power using the measured CycleArea-Values (see on the right of the scopeshots) for
current and voltage across the light bulbs?

To ask more precise: Is it possible to calculate power using this formula:
CycleArea of (current) x CycleArea of (voltage) instead of CycleArea of (current x voltage) ?

Where "x" means a multiplication and CycleArea means "Bereichsmessung einer Signalperiode in Vs"

Regards Markus

Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Markus,
yes, try to multiplicate the uVs value of the voltage measurement with the
uVs of the amperage measurement (via the shunt).
This then should give an energy  value. ( power x aquisation time)
Then divide through this aquisation time and you have the realtime power.

You have to find out from the manual, how the scope calculates
this uVs value over the time period. Is it just a average voltage or
a mean root square voltage ? (RMS voltage)
Then you could add or multiply in a correction factor.

P.S: Why does your scope also display uVVs so 2 Voltage "V" in the center ?
What is this ?

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Offline PaulLowrance

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Hi Markus,

I think you're really on to something as there many other devices very similar to yours. I believe Tom Bearden's MEG uses the same principle as yours. I have to agree with Stephan that figuring out the efficiency is very important, even if you have to do it by hand.

Paul Lowrance

Offline GM

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yes, try to multiplicate the uVs value of the voltage measurement with the
uVs of the amperage measurement (via the shunt).
This then should give an energy value. ( power x aquisation time)
Then divide through this aquisation time and you have the realtime power.

Okay, I will do this next time... but one thing makes me thoughtful.
The description of the scopes CyclArea-Measure-function says, that areas above
the groundlevel (GND) are positive and areas beneath the ground are negative.

I am not sure that this is the right way to measure the power.
For example a pure sinuswave which have equivalent positiv and negativ areas will
nullify the measurement to zero (if I understand the function correctly)?

To go the right way I attach a part of the scopes manual which describes some
of the measurement-abilities and some of the algorithms behind the functions.
Stupidly I never had integral calculus at school, so I cannot say for sure what is the
most suitable function for the measurement. But maybe you are better trained for it? ;-)

P.S: Why does your scope also display uVVs so 2 Voltage "V" in the center ?
What is this ?

When I multiply 2 signals first and do a CyclArea-measurement on the resulting
waveform (which is the product of the two single waveforms), then the scope indicate
this by using "VVs" as unit.

Regards, Markus

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Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Markus, versuch mal von beiden Signalen
den RMS (EFF) Wert zu multiplizieren !

Das m?sste dann dem entsprechen,
als ob Du Gleichspannungen verwendest und
DC Spannung x DC Strom multiplizierst.

Offline Jdo300

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Jason,

The back or cemf spike created in the primary after the input pulse goes to zero, will reverse polarity in reference to the initial input pulse. As the input coil is being energized, the top of the toroid is positive wrt the bottom. When the input pulse goes low, the coil will kick back in reverse, and the bottom of the toroid will be positive wrt the top, and hence the cemf spike can energize the bulb. During the reversal, a new ISOLATED circuit is formed by the input coil, the bulb, and its series diode.

z_p_e

Thanks z_p_e, that really cleared it up for me. I had been thinking that the back emf was actually traveling backwards through the coil rather than just rushing forwards in the same direction as the input. That makes much more sense now ;D.

Hi Markus,

I attached a picture of the two toroidal cores I got today. After studying your circuit diagram, I am curious to know if you are actually sending back emf spikes to that bulb on the primary side of the toroid. I see how you have the two diodes on the incoming side of the circuit positioned to only let the power come into the coil but not surge back into the source. But where I am confused is about that second diode on the line going to the bulb. I can see that it clearly blocks the current from the source from surging into the bulb, but when the back emf spike rushes backwards through the circuit towards the source, it seems like that current would still not go into the bulb because it is trying to go backwards. Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way but it seems more like the spikes are charging the magnetic field of the toroid and after the spike shuts off, the current continues to flow in one direction since your diode is only allowing a one-way flow of the current. Now, if my thinking is way off, could you or someone else here explain to me what is really happening?

God Bless,
Jason O

P.S. Where did you get your Tesla wire from?

I was going to buy those EXACT same toroids off ebay like two months ago, lol, $14. :)

I saw the quantity drop by 1, hehe.

EDIT: Matter of fact, I just bought a pair for $14 myself..... :)


Dimensions are (in inches): 2.60OD x 1.20ID x 1.05H.


Tao,

Yup, those are the exact dimeneions of the cores that I have. Do you know anything about them? I want to find out what kind of material they are made of and weather they can work at high frequencies or low frequencies.

God Bless,
Jason O

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Offline MeggerMan

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Hi Marcus,
I had an idea this morning while standing in the shower, as you do.
What about using a DC-DC converter IC and replace the standard inductor with the toroid core and magnet.
MC34063A
These things are very efficient at around 87 percent or higher in step-up voltage mode.
I think some of the more expensive ones are as high as 95%.
You can adjust the frequency via the timing capacitor.
The output voltage is fixed by two resistors R1 and R2.
Output is up to 1.5A

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/16073.pdf

I have used the above IC and it works very well in normal mode, but I will try it again, but with the magnet.

Description:
Quote
MC34063A
DC-to-DC Converter
Control Circuits
The MC34063A Series is a monolithic control circuit containing the
primary functions required for DC?to?DC converters. These devices
consist of an internal temperature compensated reference, comparator,
controlled duty cycle oscillator with an active current limit circuit,
driver and high current output switch. This series was specifically
designed to be incorporated in Step?Down and Step?Up and
Voltage?Inverting applications with a minimum number of external
components. Refer to Application Notes AN920A/D and AN954/D
for additional design information.
? Operation from 3.0 V to 40 V Input
? Low Standby Current
? Current Limiting
? Output Switch Current to 1.5 A
? Output Voltage Adjustable
? Frequency Operation to 100 kHz
? Precision 2% Reference

Regards

Rob

Offline GM

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@ Paul:
Thank you for the insight into "robbing kinetic & potential energy" and your elucidation
about this topic.
I know nearly nothing about magnetic domains within magnetizable materials, but it sounds
interesting. It is an interesting aspect that a change of the domain-alignments inevitably
cause a emission of energy.

Maybe the magnet in my setup will cause a faster re-aligning of the magnetic domains
in the toroid core and cause a higher energy emission - same way as you noticed in your
other post? Hmm, but why does it do not work this way with a coil on a normal ferrite rod?

Quote
Last night I came up with what I think could be breakthrough in how to extract energy
from the magnetic material. OK, I give my idea perhaps 30% chance of being error free,
but since your device and various others successful magnetic devices seem so similar
to my method I was excited to study your device.

Would you talk about your idea? Mybe we (or better all readers) could learn from each
other and enlarge our knowledge - unless you want to handle it as secret yet.

Quote
On #3 above you can verify this by wrapping a lot of turns of copper wire around a
large piece of hard iron such as a steel nail and connecting it to your speaker
amplifier. You will hear popping noises which are avalanches occurring within the
hard iron.

Yes I read about this "experiement" long time ago on a very intersting
website of two quite clever and striving guys from austria - http://www.hcrs.at/

Quote
Marcus, I am wondering about some other matches. For example, is your device more
efficient when using rods sa compared to toroids? Also, is your device more efficient
with material that is not too high or too low in permeability?

I tried it with a coil on a ferrite rod, but there is no effect noticable
(effect = increasing kickback energy while the total power consumption drops)

I didn't tried other toroidal core materials, because I own only this kind of ferrite
core. I think I can get a damaged PC-Power supply from a friend. So therin I will
hopefully find some other kinds of ferrite cores to play with (from the step-up
switching circuit).

Quote
...So I'll use LTSpice to build my circuit and see what happens. If nothing interesting
then I'll be glad to build your circuit.

I am very excited/wonder(?) on your results.

@Jason:
Your two cores looks fine. Please notice that I forgot the 5V voltage regulator in
my circuit diagram. Okay, It would work without it, but if you drive the circuit with
more than 12 volts it will damaged. The (hopefully last and) correct circuit diagramm-
version is online since yesterday. :-) I built the circuit long time ago, so I forgot
some of the modifications I made on the orginally circuit (which was a dimmer for halogen
light bulbs :-) )

@kingrs:
The modification with the antiparallel diodes in the circuit is still a mod made by me
(in contrast to my last statement). So I think I have to vet myself for 'Alzheimer'?
Okay, just kidding ;-)... but I am really stressed last time to manage the allday job,
the family, the everyday life under the aspect of my huge desire to go on experimenting
in every free minute!

Quote
I had an idea this morning while standing in the shower, as you do.
What about using a DC-DC converter IC and replace the standard inductor with the toroid
core and magnet. MC34063A
(...)
I have used the above IC and it works very well in normal mode, but I will try it again,
but with the magnet.

Rob, this sounds interesting, but keep in mind that the effect of increasing voltage and
current (when the magnet is placed) only occurs on the back emf of the coil! The normal
transformation will much less participate from this effect.
I don't know which exact signal-waveform DC-DC converter use for the transformation
(squarewave or sinus or something else), but I can't imagine that this converters are
working with the kickback energy of the transformation coils.

So you have to modify the circuit of the DC-DC converter. And maybe youl will result
in a circuit similar to mine.


But one word generally word from me to the Steven marks topic.

I don't think that this effect, which appears in my circuit, is the main secret of Steven
Marks device.
Okay, in his bigger devices we see similar cores with toroidial wounded wires on it, but
I think this only a clever (and maybe selfrunning) circuit to generate a signal wich will
be amplify by *somewhat* which *is* the main secret of the device.

I can't imagine that this two small cores in his 1 KW-device are able to produce so much
energy. The main secret lies in my opinion in the outher ring - which obviously does't
contain any magnetic material! Look at the videos - the big ring can be cutted by a
simple electro saw. There is no metall within.
In the videos some people handle with a big speaker magnet closely at the small black
toroidal device, but no attraction appears. So I think this device or core comprise not
from magenetic material.


Actually I (try to) read the 'monster topic' in this forum <The Master Of Magnetics
"Steven Mark">. Every day a few pages. At the moment I am at the spot where Steven
talks about his boss and the explosion of the TV-set with the marvelousness magnetic
eruption.

During sucking every kind of information I will modify my sight of the device a little bit.
Also the airly informations from Mr. Mannix keep my mind in motion.

So I think the main secret has rather to do with the way how the bigger air/corc-cored coils
are wound and how they are feeded with pulsing dc.

Regards, Markus

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Offline MeggerMan

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Hi Marcus,
As I undertand it, a DC-DC controller does everything that you are doing in your circuit but in one package.
It uses the back emf to step up the voltage.
I tested your pulse circuit in Electronics Work Bench and the mark/space ratio does not seem to work very well.
I did 555 timer IC circuit that seems to work better.

Try replacing your standard diodes with Schottky diodes as these have a low drop-out voltage and will make your
circuit more efficient.
i.e.

ST MICROELECTRONICS STPS1L30A Voltage, Vrrm:30V; Current, If av:1A; Voltage, forward at If:0.3V; Current, Ifs max:75A;
or
INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER 30BQ100   Voltage, Vrrm:100V; Current, If av:3A; Voltage, forward at If:0.3V; Current, Ifs max:650A

I am looking at various controller specs at the moment to try to find ones that have a high efficiency and low operating frequency.
You mentioned 15kHz which is very low, most controller ICs seem to start at around 50kHz.
The reason for this is to reduce the size of the inductor, which in our case we want as big as possible.

I will try the controller I have at the moment and post my results.
Because the output voltage is fixed, I will use a fixed load and watch to see if the input load goes up or down when I introduce a magnet near the core.

Regards

Rob

Offline GM

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As I undertand it, a DC-DC controller does everything that you are doing in your circuit but in one package.
It uses the back emf to step up the voltage.

Oh okay, it was new for me that this controellers use the back emf.
Thank you for this information.

Try replacing your standard diodes with Schottky diodes as these have a low drop-out voltage and will make your
circuit more efficient.

I already use low drop diodes (shottky, SB 130) with around 130 mV drop voltage.
But with an back emf of aprox. 42.0 volts it doesn't matter if the drop will be 0.7 volt or 0.13 volt I think. ;-)

I will try the controller I have at the moment and post my results.
Because the output voltage is fixed, I will use a fixed load and watch to see if the input
load goes up or down when I introduce a magnet near the core.

Fine, I am curious about your results.
Good luck and much success!

Bye Markus
« Last Edit: August 30, 2006, 03:29:22 PM by GM »

Offline MeggerMan

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Hi Marcus,
Every millivolt counts.
500mV drop over 24V ~ 2%

The Schottky diode you refered to, is it made by Fairchild?
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/SB%2FSB130.pdf

This has quite a large forward voltage of 500mV not 130mV.
You could shave another 1% off your circuit by using a better diode at 24V.
Check you output voltage, if your bulb is only 12v and only partly lit then you could be chucking away up to 5%.

The lowest forward voltage drop I could find at FarnellInOne (1056 diodes) was:
BAT754S by Philips, 200mV but only 200mA BAT754S by Philips.
DSSK 80-0008D by IXYS SEMICONDUCTOR at 230mV 40A, but only 8V.
20L15TSPBF by INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER at 250mV 20A but again only 15V.

Here's one 1PS74SB23 by Philips 260mV 1A and 25V.



Regards

Rob



Offline GM

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Rob,

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/SB%2FSB130.pdf

This has quite a large forward voltage of 500mV not 130mV.

Yes, your'e right. It is the right diode.
And you are also right with the forward voltage (500 mV acc. datasheet, but @ 1 Amp.)

I used this type of diode in another circuit. And I looked for a diode with
low voltage drop. I testes some diodes in this circuit and the SB 130 was one of the
diodes in my box with a quite low voltage drop (around 130 mV).
But not at 1 Amp, rather than 1-5 mA ;-).

I think this the reason for my "wrong" statement (wow, this time it was not my forgetfulness).

Bye Markus


PS: But first I will do some real and comparable measurements on the existing setup
befor I try other setups. I will do this most likely next weekend.

 

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