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Author Topic: Interesting experiment with an transformer, 2 lamps, diodes and an magnet  (Read 45980 times)

Offline GM

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Well, I am back now.

And now I am a proud owner of an really fine digital storage oscilloscope *beingsohappy* ;-)

So I continued my experiment with the toroid transformer and the two small light bulbs.
You remember?

The transformer is feeded with pulsing DC current and supply a light bulb which is connected
to the secondary coil of the toroid transformer.
Each time, when the DC puls of the generator ist going to off state, the magnetic field of
the primary coil is break down and induct a voltage with an opposit polarity in the coil.

My experiement setup use shottky diodes that causes, that this opposit "kickback-voltage"
will feed a second light bulb. The normal pulse of the generator will *not* feed this
second light bulb.

(Please see picture 01_Circuit.gif for the detailed circuit)

I found out, that this kickback energy will significant increase when I place a strong
neodym magnet to a special point near the transformer coil. Please see the older entries
in this thread to get more informations about it. There you also found a video too which
shows the effect.

Unfortunately I had no tools to determine, if the power consumption of the whole
circuit will increase too in this case. My digital multimeter shows a decreasing
current tendency, but like Stefan said, we need scope shots to get for sure.
"A DMM does not show right values, if you measure non-sinus current/voltages".
And maybe the magnet only alter the magentic saturation of the ferrite core.


Well, today I built up the experiement again and took some scope-screenshots.

Plaese take a look and let me know your thoughts and comments. Thank you.


(Picture 02_Current.gif)
This picture shows the the current consumption of the whole circuit and the voltage
level of the battery. The current was measured by measuring the voltage drop across a
1 Ohm 2,5 W shunt resitor.

Chanel 1 shows the voltage across the 1 Ohm shunt resistor (current) and chanel 2
shows the voltage across the battery poles.
The black waveforms show the values without the magnet in the setup, the red
waveforms shows the same measure-points, but with the placed magnet.

You see there is a significant *drop* of power consumption, wehen the magnet
is placed and the kickback powerd light bulb becomes brighter.


(Picture 03_Voltage on coil.gif)
Here you see the voltage amounts across the kickback powerd light bulb (chanel 1)
and across the output connectors of the pulsegenerator.

Black waves = without magnet, red waves with magnet.

The voltage across the output connectors will drop a little bit, when the magnet
is placed. The voltage across the kickback powerd light bulb will alter only
very weakly. So I think only the kickback-current will increase by magnet. Further
measurements are neccessary.


(Picture 03_Voltage on coil-2.gif)
This shows the volatge levels behind the first rectifier diode and ground (chanel 2)
and again the voltage across the kickback light bulb (chanel 1).


I attach additionaly two gif-animations who shows the red and black waveforms as single
frame.


Btw: In another thread Mr. Steven Marks talked about small kicks in wires when they
interact with a magnetic field.

Quote
[...]
"If you look in Morgan Jones book, Valve Amplifiers, 3rd edition, on page 262 he says, The inrush of current through the filament interacts with the earth's magnetic field to produce a small kick.
SMALL KICK. Those words mean a great deal. It PROVES that there is an interaction between the magnetic field of the earth and simple electrons running through wires. It may be a small influence but it is actual OVER UNITY. I have spent several years of my life thinking about that."
[...]

My first thought I got related to my experiement was: Hey, the electrones get a
permanent kick *in one direction*! "Das ist wie Rueckenwind beim Radfahren - oder
Schmierseife im Kabel".

Remarkable: This effect is *only* significant at the kickback powerd light bulb!
The brightness of the normal powerd light bulb fluctuate much slightly! Even if
I disconnect the kickback light bulb and drive the circuit as a normal pulse
transformer.

I have to go on with this setup... :-)

Regards, Markus

EDIT: Damn, there is again a mistake in the circuit diagram.
The part with the coil is not between +9V and the FET transistor, but between
GND and the FET transistor. Sorry for that.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 09:49:08 PM by GM »

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Offline PaulLowrance

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Hi Markus,

Wow, a lot of good data, and very nice scope! Is it a pc scope?

Quote
I found out, that this kickback energy will significant increase when I place a strong
neodym magnet to a special point near the transformer coil. Please see the older entries
in this thread to get more informations about it. There you also found a video too which
shows the effect.
As you probably know, that's a very well known effect. It's not really an effect because it's only due to hysterics curve of magnetic material. That is, permeability increase as the magnetic field increases in the magnetic material. Till a certain point of course, which the permeability then begins to decrease as it approaches saturation.


Quote
Unfortunately I had no tools to determine, if the power consumption of the whole
circuit will increase too in this case.
Is there other software available that would show average power?


One thing I don't understand is regarding Picture 02_Current.gif, it shows ch.2 connected to +9V battery, but it only shows 1V peek on ch.2, right?


Good work,
Paul Lowrance

Offline GM

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Hello Paul,
Is it a pc scope?

No it's a 'real' desktop scope with floppy disk option to save screeshots to a ms-dos formated disk.


Quote
I found out, that this kickback energy will significant increase when I place a strong
neodym magnet to a special point near the transformer coil. Please see the older entries
in this thread to get more informations about it. There you also found a video too which
shows the effect.
As you probably know, that's a very well known effect. It's not really an effect because it's only due to hysterics curve of magnetic material. That is, permeability increase as the magnetic field increases in the magnetic material. Till a certain point of course, which the permeability then begins to decrease as it approaches saturation.
Hmm, well, but if take a look on the current and voltage consumption, you see that it will
decrase while the kickback bulb obviously get more power.
Could/should this only be a kind of "better efficiency" of the core?


Quote
Unfortunately I had no tools to determine, if the power consumption of the whole
circuit will increase too in this case.
Is there other software available that would show average power?
Not for this scope. Maybe some of the internal math- and measurefunctions of the scope
are useful to calculate some informative values, but I am not an "Formula-hero", so I dont
know it for shure.

One thing I don't understand is regarding Picture 02_Current.gif, it shows ch.2 connected to +9V battery, but it only shows 1V peek on ch.2, right?
The probes I use divide the voltage by factor 10, so you must multiply all measured voltages by factor 10.
Therefor the right value ist 10 V peek on Ch. 2.

Good work,

Thank you. I hope I find some attentive readers, who call attention to my tecnical mistakes, because I surly made some - I am not a tecnical specialist. :-)

Markus

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Offline PaulLowrance

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Hi Markus,

Quote
Quote
I found out, that this kickback energy will significant increase when I place a strong
neodym magnet to a special point near the transformer coil. Please see the older entries
in this thread to get more informations about it. There you also found a video too which
shows the effect.
As you probably know, that's a very well known effect. It's not really an effect because it's only due to hysterics curve of magnetic material. That is, permeability increase as the magnetic field increases in the magnetic material. Till a certain point of course, which the permeability then begins to decrease as it approaches saturation.
Hmm, well, but if take a look on the current and voltage consumption, you see that it will
decrase while the kickback bulb obviously get more power.
Could/should this only be a kind of "better efficiency" of the core?
Indeed! It should get you better efficiency. :-)  So if the device is say a so-called free energy device then it should equate to more free energy.



Quote
Quote
Unfortunately I had no tools to determine, if the power consumption of the whole
circuit will increase too in this case.
Is there other software available that would show average power?
Not for this scope. Maybe some of the internal math- and measurefunctions of the scope
are useful to calculate some informative values, but I am not an "Formula-hero", so I dont
know it for shure.
I wonder if there's some software that can capture the scope data and calculate the average power and redisplay the data on the computer screen. It would probably take too much work though.


Quote
One thing I don't understand is regarding Picture 02_Current.gif, it shows ch.2 connected to +9V battery, but it only shows 1V peek on ch.2, right?
The probes I use divide the voltage by factor 10, so you must multiply all measured voltages by factor 10.
Therefor the right value ist 10 V peek on Ch. 2.
Great, now I can see if it all makes sense to me.

I'm very interested in magnetic devices that have good potential of extracting free ambient energy. A lot of people are really into ZPE or other exotic forms of energy. That's all beyond me, so I just try to stick with conventional means. My research using conventional science points to possibilities of extracting energy from magnetic materials. There are so many things happening within magnetic material that it's truly a universe in itself!  The Magnetocaloric effect is just one of many. Hysteresis is a very exciting effect, which when viewed on a micro scale causes huge electromagnetic signals in the 100+ MHz range. That's just a few effects and I'm sure that are worlds more that conventional science knows nothing of.

Paul Lowrance

Offline GM

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This evening I carried out this experiment again, but with a normal wounded
coil. No toroid core this time and no second coil only a single coil on a 5 cm/
8 mm ferrite rod.

Pictures following tomorow, but the first conclusion is:
Same effect on the kickback powerd light bulb (a bit less significant than in the other
setup), but when the bulb becomes brighter a simultaneous increase of power consuption
is noticeable. Regardless of the direction of the magnet. One side of magent causes more
consumption, other side of magnet causes even more consumption. :-)

In both cases the consumption-level is above the level without the magnet.

So I guess this looks like a normal adjustment of the permeability of the ferrite rod.
This result is definitely contrary to the first experiment with the toroid core.

Markus

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Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Markus,
great new scope and well done  experiment !
Try to see, if your scope can multiply the 2 channels.
This can be used to calculate instant power input in the way you have measured it
already !
Some scopes also have an integral function, so by multiplying Voltage and amperage ( via the shunt)
you get the power input and also energy input in a time frame.

Then if it has an integral function you can calculate the area ( Fl?che unter der Kurve)
beneath the multiplied waveform and get the energy input for this time period.

Then you should measure the same Voltage and Current ( again via the shunt) at the
kickback lamp and also at the normal lamp and compare this again in the multiply
mode with the input power or energy  during the same time period.

I guess your scope can do this, probably at least show as a 3rd trace the multiplied
waveform which will show instant power input ?
Or can it only show 2 traces ?
Maybe it can show a digital number of the multiplied 2 traces over the displayed timeperiod
it just displays,e.g. 50 milliseconds from left to right and shows the energy input this way
via a number in this e.g. 50 milliseconds timeframe ?

Good luck !

Best regards, Stefan.

Offline GM

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Hi,

here are the promised screenshots from the setup with the normal
wounded coil on a ferrite rod a made yesterday.

Like I wrote, here we found comparable kickback-energy from the coil
(but this is nothing new like Paul mentioned correcly).

But when I use the magnet to increase the kickback energy I got simultaneous
an increase of power consumption of the whole circuit.

More informations whithin the picture(s).

Markus

edit: fixed a mistake in the paintings...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 01:57:20 PM by GM »

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Offline GM

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Hi Stefan,

Hi Markus,
great new scope and well done  experiment !

Try to see, if your scope can multiply the 2 channels.
This can be used to calculate instant power input in the way you have measured it
already !
Some scopes also have an integral function, so by multiplying Voltage and amperage ( via the shunt)
you get the power input and also energy input in a time frame.

Then if it has an integral function you can calculate the area ( Fl?che unter der Kurve)
beneath the multiplied waveform and get the energy input for this time period.

Then you should measure the same Voltage and Current ( again via the shunt) at the
kickback lamp and also at the normal lamp and compare this again in the multiply
mode with the input power or energy  during the same time period.

I guess your scope can do this, probably at least show as a 3rd trace the multiplied
waveform which will show instant power input ?
Or can it only show 2 traces ?
Maybe it can show a digital number of the multiplied 2 traces over the displayed timeperiod
it just displays,e.g. 50 milliseconds from left to right and shows the energy input this way
via a number in this e.g. 50 milliseconds timeframe ?

Good luck !

Thank you very much.

The scope can do all this stuff.

At first: I do not expect, that this setup will produce more energy than it gets
as input. But alone the reverse behaivor of the power consumption when the
magnet is placed near the core is IMHO very remarkable.
And it seem that this effect only appears in a magnetic-closed-loop core (toroid).

I will perform again the experiement with the toroid core and will do all
the measurements. I hope I will have enough time to do all the painting stuff
with the screenshots today and upload it.

@tao: I dont know, if this is the whole secret of the Steven Marks Device, because
in the latest SM-Device video he shows a very early version of the device, which
seems to work with a normal rod core. (I mean the device which is "build in" in a small silver
metall case together with 2 transformers and a 25 watt light bulb - I think you know
the video)

@tao (2): Yes, I will do the test with a second magnet too. Stay tuned.

Markus

Offline MeggerMan

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Hi Markus,

Nice results!
If you increase the number of turns you should be able to increase the back emf voltage and reduce the volts drop loss of the diodes.
Also increase the cross sectional area of the torroid core will also help (bigger torroid).
I am interested in what you are doing here as I suspect this crosses over with the magnetic valve idea, see the following:
overunity.com The international free energy research forum > Mechanical setups > Magnet Motors > Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,833.225.html

Everything seems to tie in with the magnetic valve idea, the flux density in the core must be just right for the switch to work.
Can I suggest that you try to angle the magnet at 45 degrees instead of the normal 90 degrees.
Then try two magnets at a 45 degree angle with one on the inside of the core and one on the outside.
You may need to use ceramic magnets if you have them as a neodymium magnet will saturate the ferrite at around 250mT (I think).

Regards

Rob

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Offline GM

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Try to see, if your scope can multiply the 2 channels.
This can be used to calculate instant power input in the way you have measured it
already !

Stefan,

unfortunatelly the scope can't do two calculations on one signal at once.
The problem is, I need for measuring the voltage and the current a single
GND (at the same point for the two oscilloscope probes).

    Ch1       GND     Ch2
     |         |       |
+ o----#####-----(X)------o -
         R       bulb

But with this measurement setup one signal is always inverted.
And then the the calucation for the power per timeperiod (CH1 * CH2)
will going wrong.

The scope is not able to invert a chanel AND taking this result as
input for a second calculation.

Okay, I could try to measure the chanel 1 first and store the waveform into
a reference-memory which can be used as source for further calculations.

eg.
1) Sample Ch1 (across the 1 ohm resistor) and store the wave into Wave-Memory 1
    Ch1       GND
     |         | 
+ o----#####-----(X)------o -
         R       bulb


2) Then move the ground connector of the scope to ground of the kickback bulb
   and sample Ch1 again.
             Ch1       GND
              |         | 
+ o----#####-----(X)------o -
         R       bulb


3) During measuring signal 2) calculate the power-waveform using the waveform
   which is stored into the waveform memeory 1 (Wavememory 1 * Ch1).

BUT, I suspect the signals will get out of phase on the time axis when
I do it this way. Because the triggerpoint of the live meausred signal will not
excactly be on the same "timestamp" like the trigger of the saved waveform.

Any suggestion to solve this problem?

Markus

Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Markus,
but it can multiply signals ?

Don?t you have an invert switch for one of the channels at the input ?
This is sometimes done directly in hardware...

If not, just calculate with the wrong inverted waveform and do a (1-x)
multiply yourself afterwards, this should be probably easy to correct afterwards,
when I am not confused right now ?

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Offline GM

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Hello again,

new scopeshots which shows at least the power consumption of the circuit
measured in watt seconds [I hope ;-)] (voltage * current area for one periode)
(see scope-screen1)


But this time I used a smaller, cubic neodym magnet for the experiment.
Reason for this: I tried to place two of the big magnets near the coil to
see if the effect will become much more significant. But they are to strong
and they attract each other and the core very heavily.

I need 4 hands to manage this setup. And each time the big magnets stick
at the core (whooosh... click) they will nearly "kill" the whole setup - the huge
magnetic force will suppress the magnetic flux of the coil.

But with the smaller magnets it was no problem.
I tried to place the second magnet with the opposite magnetic pole at the
other side of the core. This increases the effect a little bit.
(For example: "current" consumption (voltage over the 1 ohm shunt, see screen 1)
with one magnet was around 120 mV and with the second magnet it drops to approx.
88-90 mV.
But I get the same result when I use only one magnet and place it INTO the toroid
core. (see picture).

So I think this is the optimum related to the magnets placement.
All measures in the following scopeshots are made with this new setup.

Back to the scopeshots:
The power consumption across the the light bulbs cannot be calculated like
in the first screenshot, because of the invertion of one chanel during the
simultanous measuring of current and voltage (see my last post).

    Ch1       GND     Ch2
     |         |       |
+ o----#####-----(X)------o -
         R       bulb

But the scopeshots shows the waveforms of current and voltage and on the right
side of the screen the "area" for one periode of each signal in volt per soconds(*).
Maybe one is able to calculate the power (watt) using this two values in any
formula (Stefan, are these values usable in any kind?)
(see scope-screen2)

*) = Bereichsmessung (german explanation of the scopes function "area measurement",
     taken from the scopes manual):
"Eine Messung des Signalbereichs, die in der ausgew?hlten Zone durchgef?hrt wird,
ausgedr?ckt in Voltsekunden. Der Bereich oberhalb des des Erdpotentials ist positiv
und der Bereich unterhalb des Erdpotential ist negativ."



By the way: I also tried two other kind of coils.

1) Same toroid core, but the coil was wound with 1 layer around the complete 360
dergree of the core (instead of 180 degrees of the "original coil")

2) Same toroid core. The coil was wounded only on the half of the core like in
the original experiment, but I wounded 3 layers on it. That means I wound the first
layer on the core from the bottom to the top (180 dgr.), then the wire goes straight
from the top to the bottom of the core where I begung the wounding (yes, 3cm wire
goes directly through/over the middle of the core). Then I wound the next layer
from the bottom to the top - from there going again directly back to bottom and
wound the 3rd. layer.

Testresult: None(!) of this two coils show the effect the original coil will show!!!
(decreasing power consumption while kickback energy will increase with placed magnet)

And also if I use the original coil without the second coil (where the normal powered
light bulb is connected on), the experiment will nevertheless show the effect.

So it seems the effect appears only with 1-layered coils which are wound on one half
of a toroid ferrite core!

Regards, Markus

edit 28.08.2006: gnnrr, there was still a mistake in the paintings. The Ch1/Ch2 labels
were mixed up in the drafts which shows the scope measure-points. sorry...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 05:47:11 PM by GM »

Offline GM

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Hi Markus,
but it can multiply signals ?

Don?t you have an invert switch for one of the channels at the input ?
This is sometimes done directly in hardware...

If not, just calculate with the wrong inverted waveform and do a (1-x)
multiply yourself afterwards, this should be probably easy to correct afterwards,
when I am not confused right now ?

No invert switch on the front panel.
This will be done in software. And if I am correct, then this can only be done,
using a calculation on the chanel which have to be inverted and generate a 3rd.
wave with the INV-function. But calculated waves cannot be measured by the
area-function. Only the real chanels.

But I will have a closer look into the manual. Maybe it's nevertheless possible.

Markus

Offline Jdo300

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Hi Markus,

I have been following the Steve Marks post for quite some time but have just now come across this post. Very interesting!! I was just thinking about how Steve was amplifying the kicks in his device and it *appears* that you have found out the answer. You may want to look up the subject "Magnetic Amplifiers," they are obsolete devices now of days but back in the '50's they used similar setups of both linear and toroidal cores to amplify a small signal into a big one by modifying the saturation of a ferrous core. Speaking of which, I want to duplicate your experiment and was wondering if you still have the contact information for the eBay seller that you got the core from. Also, what gauge wire do you have wound on the core? One more thing too:

Quote
- the winding orientation of the primary and secondary coilis not equal, it is oppositional (the coil-orientation painted in the draft is wrong).

What exactly do you mean about the coils being wound oppositional on the core? Do you mean that one is wound clockwise and the other is wound counter-clockwise around the toroid? Have you ever tried the experiment with the coils both wound the same to see if the effect still occurs?

God Bless,
Jason O

Offline GM

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Hello Jason,

I am elated to hear that someone will reproduce my exepriment!

...core. Speaking of which, I want to duplicate your experiment and was wondering if you still have the contact information for the eBay seller that you got the core from. Also, what gauge wire do you have wound on the core?

Because I am on my allday-job now, I can supply you with this information first this evening.
But I think it is no problem to get the ebay-nick from the seller.

Are you able to do some further measurements on this experiment?
What are your tecnical skills? I ask, because I am only a "low-grade" hobbiest with limited
possibilities.


One more thing too:
Quote
- the winding orientation of the primary and secondary coilis not equal, it is oppositional (the coil-orientation painted in the draft is wrong).

What exactly do you mean about the coils being wound oppositional on the core? Do you mean that one is wound clockwise and the other is wound counter-clockwise around the toroid? Have you ever tried the experiment with the coils both wound the same to see if the effect still occurs?

The experiement begun as a normal transformation using a pulse generator.
But I find out that the secondary coil is not necessary. So you dont need this second coil to
replicate the effect.

But to answer your question: Yes, I meant that one coil is wound clockwise and the other is wound
counter-clockwise around the toroid. And no, I never tried to change the direction of the secondary coil.

I wish you much success with the replication of this experiment.
I hope we see your results here too.

More informations about the used wire and the core comes this evening.

Oh, still one thing: I use a square wave generator with variable duty cycle of the impulse.
You have to play a bit with the frequency and the duty cycle to find a setting which
shows the maximum effect. I think this depends of the corematerial the core dimension and
the count of turns of the wire.
If I tune the generator above 25 KHz the voltages will break down dramaticly. 15.7 KHz is
a quite good frequence for my setup.

Regards, Markus
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 12:25:09 PM by GM »

 

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