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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 02:36:06 AM

Title: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 02:36:06 AM
Hi All,
almost falling asleep at my PC I finally changed a few settings
with a rod only version and only 2 weights and suddenly I came up
with an endless rotating wheel !
Which also speeds up from time to time.

It uses the centrifugal forces.

It is very easy to setup.
A disc with 200Kg weight, being 2.54 Meters in diameter,
the 2 weights hang each at 1.20 Meter from the axis.
The upper weight has 100 Kg
the lower weight has 101 kg !
the upper rod is 0.600 Meters long
the lowerrod is 0.601 Meters long
The connection rod between the 2 weights is 3.056 Meters long.

It never stops, although I did set air resistance already very strong and
also enabled the friction model.

I will also now post amovie of it  in the next message.
Here is the WM2D file:

http://www.overunity.com/bessler

Enjoy !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 20, 2008, 02:45:00 AM
very cool!

but the link for the wm2d file is not working.
please repost or edit your post. thanks!

thanks for sharing, keep it open source!


peace
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 20, 2008, 03:10:41 AM
@hartiberlin

 Good work, but I have no simulation software to see it. I am a video and hands on type of guy.

If it can be a solid reality, I see this year being very interesting, with what others coming out. ;D

the picture reminds me of a Chaos pendulum with a round disk.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 03:14:27 AM
Hi,
sorry, I corrected the link above.

Here is also now the Movie of it:

http://overunity.com/bessler/bessler_harti_working_01.avi

It is 5 Mbytes big, DIVX.com codec encoded.

I still have to see, if I will still even find better parameters to get the big disc better into sync.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 03:21:58 AM
Well,
the long 3.056 Meter connection rod is designed
this way, that one weight is always 90 degrees out of phase to the other weight...

Well, it is hard to explain, but I saw, that tilted pendulums have a reduced
weight force, as you can see in the Milkovic example.
When the weight is at 90 degrees its weight directly down is almost zero.
So I made the rod this long, that one weight is at 90 degrees out of the wheel
and the other directly vertically down in the start position.

Then somehow I did set the bottom weight wrong instead
of 100 Kg to 101 kg and voila, it was working !

It seems it needs this kind of 1Kg asymmetry !

With both weights having exactly 100 Kg
the wheel will turn a while and then change revolution
direction...


I still have to test this with other friction settings inside the
WM2D program and hope, that it is not just a program artifact.

But I guess it is a step into the right direction.

Today is a good day !
First we had the graphite rod overunity confirmations and
now this Bessler wheel.

Now I can go to sleep very satisfied for the day and
have a happy feeling. ;)

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 20, 2008, 03:29:30 AM
@hartiberlin

LOL I like it. It is a chaos pendulum, I would be honored to build you a real one and video it and send it to you to post. I have everything I need to do it and it won't take 15 minutes to do. Just give me the go ahead and it will be done.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 03:49:43 AM
Sure ABHammer,
go ahead and build it.
The more people will try it the better.

Yes, in this moment it looks pretty much like a chaoswheel,
but I hope that I can sync still the wheel rotation better to the
weights movements.

I just say,that it needs the high air resistance ( friction)
inside WM2D set to 0.300 kg/m^2.
This is the standard setting value for the high air resistance there.

If I set the air friction to low speed:
0.300 kg/m-s
it still spins endlessly, but changes its direction from time to time.

So the big wheel seems to need some outout load ( here the air rsistance)
to sync correctly to the 2 jumping and flying weights...

Well, I guess this is it for me for tonight.

Have a good night and dream about perpetual motion ! ;D
Now it has come true...
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 04:40:02 AM
Hmm,
now  after about 25000 frames of the animation,
that wheel begins to slow down and keels..
Well........, but this concept still has very much merit.

The wheel has produced probably way lot more energy than put into
it by then already..although the weights are pretty heavy with around 100 Kg.
Have to check, if it also runs with lower weights in the same ratio,

As it uses the centrifugal forces, this is something new
to all the MT drawings,which only use
weight forces and which in my view can?t work.
Only via converting the excessive centrifugal forcesI think
something can be achieved.

Now finally to bed...
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: fletcher on May 20, 2008, 05:10:14 AM
Stefan .. I would check your pin placements - seems one is not exactly opposite the other [where the small rods connect to the main wheel] - logic says this should be chaotic motion until the weights both hang at rest below the axle height - the test would be to start the sim in this position first off [position of least PE] - otherwise the chaotic swinging is steadily loosing Potential Height & therefore PE & this is what is driving it - like a weight clock running down, IMO - sry :7(
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: rlortie on May 20, 2008, 05:43:18 AM
Stefan .. I would check your pin placements - seems one is not exactly opposite the other [where the small rods connect to the main wheel] - logic says this should be chaotic motion until the weights both hang at rest below the axle height - the test would be to start the sim in this position first off [position of least PE] - otherwise the chaotic swinging is steadily loosing Potential Height & therefore PE & this is what is driving it - like a weight clock running down, IMO - sry :7(

Fletcher and Stefan,

I agree as usual, I slowed it down and attempted a frame by frame analysis. There is definitely  a point where the weights hang at rest in a keel position, yet there is chaotic motion noticeable in the descending side where the weight for some unknown reason changes direction in the middle of an outward swinging  descent mode. The velocity combination of the wheel and lever combined  with the extended radius  would negate any such change of motion, I would think!

Ralph 
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 20, 2008, 06:57:53 AM
G'day all,

I have also a wheel that works in WM2D, I don't trust it. After a while some of my weights do bunny hops.That is why I warned against the programme the other day.

The wheel below is the one.

Hans von Lieven

Edit: The first one was not a good screenshot as it shows the wheel as drawn. This one is in action.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 20, 2008, 07:06:29 AM
G'day all,

I have also a wheel that works in WM2D, I don't trust it. After a while some of my weights do bunny hops.That is why I warned against the programme the other day.

The wheel below is the one.

Hans von Lieven

Edit: The first one was not a good screenshot as it shows the wheel as drawn. This one is in action.

post the wm2d file please. also if you can post an animation using a gif movie or something like that.


peace
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 20, 2008, 07:30:00 AM
Fletcher and Stefan,

I agree as usual, I slowed it down and attempted a frame by frame analysis. There is definitely  a point where the weights hang at rest in a keel position, yet there is chaotic motion noticeable in the descending side where the weight for some unknown reason changes direction in the middle of an outward swinging  descent mode. The velocity combination of the wheel and lever combined  with the extended radius  would negate any such change of motion, I would think!

Ralph 

G'day Ralph,

This is exactly the kind of thing I keep running into. Some reversals just don't make sense. I have gone to the trouble of stopping the programme and print the page out. Then, with ruler and compass, the old fashioned way, I checked and there is no way what happens on the screen can happen in the workshop.

Still, it gets you to think. I guess that's something. :-)

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: exnihiloest on May 20, 2008, 11:15:39 AM
Sure ABHammer,
go ahead and build it.
The more people will try it the better.
...

Hi Stefan

I'm afraid building will be disappointing. I have also plaid with wmd pendulum models and got several kind of setups with perpetual motions.
As you did, I have also added losses such as air resistance and nevertheless the motion never ended. I also reduced the calculus step and got same results.
As wmd uses conventional physics to compute the movements, and the equations of conventional physics from the forces or from the lagrangian can't lead to extra energy, we can't expect to model a real perpetual motion with such tools. All these effects are artefacts.

Either we are expecting extra energy from hidden sources obeying to conventional physics laws and thus we have to include them in simulations in order to be able to get significant results, or we are expecting extra energy because conventional physics is wrong and thus we can't use its tools.

Fran?ois




Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 01:21:43 PM
Hi Hans,
looks nice,
can you please post your WM2D file also,
so I could have a look ?

@exnihiloest,
I agree, but I have been looking for a device,that is able to lift
the CoG over the axis for most of the time and that is, what my wheel
still did,at least for the first 10.000 simulation steps or so.

Please also post your selfrunning WM2D files,
so we can all compare them and maybe put them
together and combine them to really get something going.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 20, 2008, 02:00:25 PM
Greetings All

 I will be sending the video to Stefan this evening 7-8pm US central time. And we will see in real time what happens. I have the wheel blanks, and weights, and arms already. I only have to drill and smooth 2 holes in a piece of flat bar stock and put together. I like Chaos Pendulums and I am interested in seeing what this one will do and react.

My approach is like, WM2D means "Wood, Metal & 2 Days" (Ralph Lortie)

But when everything is this simple and ready. 15 minutes to an hour.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 03:16:38 PM
Hi Alan,
many thanks for the fast build.

Make sure you will apply the right load ( mechanical drag)
onto the wheel,
as my simulation says, it needs some load on the shaft ( friction)

Lookng forward to see a video of it.
Many thanks in advance,

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Alexioco on May 20, 2008, 05:42:08 PM
Hi Alan,
many thanks for the fast build.

Make sure you will apply the right load ( mechanical drag)
onto the wheel,
as my simulation says, it needs some load on the shaft ( friction)

Lookng forward to see a video of it.
Many thanks in advance,

Regards, Stefan.

Hey Stefan, interesting looking wheel, nice find too, this is a new idea, keep up the good work  :)
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: bluesgtr44 on May 20, 2008, 07:46:10 PM
I have lots of them.....I have been using this program for just over 2 years now. Stay away from the carved polygon function if possible....I have had nothing but crap from that function for the most part. I only half heartedly trust the polygon function. This program is very good for performing tests and doing some experiments with.....I do not  believe this program will simulate anything along the lines of a genuine PM. I can post some of these if some are interested....just have to figure out how to get a file bigger than 50kb on here.....

Hey Hans.....to give you a good example as to why the curved polygon function has glitches......draw a simple circle with the circle function and then put a "pin joint" in the center so it can spin like our wheel. Now, using the curved polygon function make a smaller circle or ball...OK, put the polygon circle inside the standard circle and set them to "collide"...Now, hit run and watch the fun! It's just not a reliable function to me......I also tried to track the velocity of this and when it got up to about E to the eighth power....I stopped.


Steve
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: erickdt on May 20, 2008, 10:40:40 PM
Here's my WM2D model that continually accelerates until it tears itself apart. Unfortunately though it would have been nearly impossible to build in reality (due to the 40,000K springs) and I had it evaluated by a WM2D guru of sorts who has concluded that it only runs as a result of flaws in WM2D's programming. In any case, enjoy...
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 20, 2008, 11:26:20 PM
@steve,

Yes, polygons are a problem. Fletcher found this out too.

@erick,

You have run into the same trouble as I did. I think the moment you have 8 kinetic bodies in the simulation the thing goes haywire. It cannot cope with that many moving parts.

@ all,

One of the problems I have found is that it is extremely difficult to place parts accurately. You really have to get into high magnification to see it. This throws the whole thing into disarray. I had one simulation today that behaved irrationally until I found the culprit to be an imbalance in the system caused by poor placement of components.

At any rate it's been fun, sort of anyway. Or has it? ???     ;D

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 20, 2008, 11:35:53 PM
Greetings Stefan

 The test is done and the videos sent plus one other that I did a slight change on.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: fletcher on May 20, 2008, 11:46:00 PM
Hans .. when you have a WM screen up & want to place parts you will find a grid reference bottom left of screen i.e. x & y co-ordinates for the object or point - manually over-type in the correct co-ordinates & you will have perfect placement each & every time - these sorts of problems are 'builders error' but usually can be avoided.

P.S. if you are placing points or objects around the circumference of a circle then place the first one at 3 o'cl - then change the degrees of rotation of the background circle [bottom box, middle to left of screen] - anchor the background wheel & place another part at the 3 o'cl grid reference & repeat for however many segment divisions [degrees] you want.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Dgraphic911 on May 20, 2008, 11:59:57 PM
I need some help, i just downloaded WM and made a quick object/pendulum wheel and it just keeps turning, do i have to turn something on, Friction Etc. or is it preset to real world terms, Also since its demo and i can't save how do you show screen shots the best way.

I can see why everyone loves this thing, PM models that work in seconds,  but seriously how do i stop m,y wheel from spinning
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: fletcher on May 21, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
Turn World>Air Resistance>Low Pressure on - this creates some approximation of real world system losses [quick & dirty testing] - to show here take a screen shot Alt>Print Screen [hold both at same time] & paste into MS Paint [.jpg] or as I do into Irfanview & crop & save as a small .gif file for posting.

Read the tutorials - they are quite helpful.

P.S. I'm not an expert user - just played around a while with it & had help from a friend who is accomplished with it.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Dgraphic911 on May 21, 2008, 12:17:57 AM
 ;D
Yes air pressure make it stop, LOL that was great.

Hmmm, now just to buy some unobtainium and get rid of air pressure, this is sure to be an intersting year.

Thanks for the WM help
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 21, 2008, 04:51:24 AM
G'day all,

I have also a wheel that works in WM2D, I don't trust it. After a while some of my weights do bunny hops.That is why I warned against the programme the other day.

The wheel below is the one.

Hans von Lieven

Edit: The first one was not a good screenshot as it shows the wheel as drawn. This one is in action.

don't think you need all those arms. probably 2 or 3 arms will do just fine using the same principle. very exciting!

peace

p.s. still waiting on the wm2d file from you.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: TheOne on May 21, 2008, 05:09:20 AM
Greetings All

 I will be sending the video to Stefan this evening 7-8pm US central time. And we will see in real time what happens. I have the wheel blanks, and weights, and arms already. I only have to drill and smooth 2 holes in a piece of flat bar stock and put together. I like Chaos Pendulums and I am interested in seeing what this one will do and react.

My approach is like, WM2D means "Wood, Metal & 2 Days" (Ralph Lortie)

But when everything is this simple and ready. 15 minutes to an hour.

Post the video on youtube don't need to have the video stored here!

Is the video is ready?
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 21, 2008, 01:31:20 PM
G'day all,

Here is something for you to play with. This is a simulation of Bessler's MT 20

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4705.0;attach=23539;image)

You can find the simulation here : http://keelytech.com/overunity/besslermt20.wm2d

It's not quite right yet, there is still an imbalance caused by not accurate enough placement of components. I'll fix it when I get the time. In the meantime have fun.

Screenshot below.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 21, 2008, 03:01:16 PM
don't think you need all those arms. probably 2 or 3 arms will do just fine using the same principle. very exciting!

peace

p.s. still waiting on the wm2d file from you.


G'day all,

I have here a 4 arm version, albeit a little modified. The lever arms are angled now. It does not work, though I am puzzled as to why not. There seems to be no reason why the wheel slows down after accelerating. See what you can make of it.

The WM2D file is here: http://keelytech.com/overunity/flapwheel1.wm2d

The screenshot below.

Hans von Lieven

PS. The 8 arm version goes haywire.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: rlortie on May 21, 2008, 07:50:04 PM
NOTE: This is an edited  copy-paste from a post I just put on BesslerWheel.com    Thought some here may enjoy it.

My opinion for what it is worth!  Ignore this post if you are not interested in some opinionated trivia regarding WM2D

I am not  user of WM2D nor do I have a sheepskin in computer simulation applications. I have in the past downloaded the free demo, toyed with the sample simulations provided. I then dumped it to free up the drive space it occupied.

The number of discrepancy reports that are posted on this forum and others is influencing  me to believe that WM2D may have its advantages in numerous mechanical designs, but usage for the search for O-U using  gravity  is not one of them.

The trivial part of my 2 cents is in the form of  questions.  If WM2D will show such a high percentage of things running that should not, how can it be relied on for positive answers?

This runs but it should not ^ This does not run but it should. Does this balance?

 How many designs have been discarded that WM2D showed negative when a real build may have shown positive? If it can foul up in one respect, how can you trust it in the other?

There is that old "adage"   What is good for the goose is good for the gander, or as the Chinese would say; the Yin and the Yang of it all.

Ralph         
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Dgraphic911 on May 21, 2008, 08:09:35 PM
Alen,  stefan wheres the video. I have been really looking forward to alens build. I love the chaos pendulum and was really hoping to see its movement.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 21, 2008, 09:24:42 PM
G'day Ralph,

I agree with you that OU will never be found with a simulation programme. These types of programmes use the laws of physics as we know them. As such they obey fully Newton's laws as well as conservation of energy.

If OU depends on a yet to be discovered discrepancy in these laws, or on some sort of yet to be discovered or recognised energy (such as Orgone, for instance) then a programme of this nature cannot possibly help because of it's inbuilt restraints.

Yet, strangely enough Bessler said that his wheel does not violate any laws of physics. (He was aware of Newton) So maybe a wheel can be built this way.

Where WM2D shines is in simple structures, where it is remarkably accurate, and in its ability to show very quickly what happens if parameters, like the relationships between the weights, are changed. What would otherwise take many hours to find out, if you did the same on an actual model, can be done in a few minutes in WM2D.

This opens up to the experimenter a cheap and quick avenue of testing an idea in many of its iterations. As anyone who has ever played with systems such as Bessler wheels will tell you, it is extremely difficult to see the centre of mass in an arrangement of weights and determine the direction of movement or equilibrium. I used to cut out a cardboard disk and stick coins in the relevant places and pin it on a wall to see if there is movement. Many experimenters have spent hundreds of hours building models that did not work when a simple test of this nature would have quickly shown the shortcomings of the arrangement. I have commented on this here in the forum on several occasions.

The facility of quick and easy determination of centre of mass alone is worth the programme. As long as the designs are not too complex or have too many components the programme works fine.

I have said it before: There is no substitute for building!

Having said that, I remember an old engineer on my first job after graduating telling me over and over: If you have to make a mistake, make it on paper and in a model, never on the job, it gets too expensive. He then showed me his Meccano set, that he kept well out of sight for fear of ridicule, with which he tested new ideas. This is where I see WM2D fitting in, between the paper and the Meccano set.

Hans von Lieven

Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: loop888 on May 21, 2008, 09:32:50 PM
congratz on your WM wheel Stefan, seems pretty crazy, like me waiting to see the video of the real model  :D
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 22, 2008, 02:44:02 AM
G'day all,

Just for a laugh have a look at this Bessler solution. I have translated it from the German and put it on my website. This wheel needs an offering of your bathwater.  ???

http://keelytech.com/besslerdoppelrad.html

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: niente on May 22, 2008, 09:49:28 AM
Don't trust Working Model 2D:

here's a self-accelerating WM2D model:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=2570 (http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=2570)

Reference thread: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156 (http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: broli on May 22, 2008, 11:37:56 PM
@Hans;

Your MT20 build gives me a weird feeling. I have been playing around with the mass of the weights and what not and it's acting "weird". Basiclly my common sense tells me it should keep on spinning whereas wm2d slows it down. How can something from rest go that far and fast, but after gaining momentum it just slows down...it just doesn't make any sense to me.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 22, 2008, 11:53:53 PM
G'day Broli,

The same thing happens in the flapwheel design. The actual position where it stops is more favourable to rotation than the starting position. Something wrong there, but what?

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: broli on May 23, 2008, 12:00:49 AM
Yes I believe I see what is wrong now, the inner weight should retract sooner. In the starting phase the south one is already against the frame...while in operation it rests on the frame way to late causing it to halt. I don't know how you guys can get your setups to run so fast and stable. I just added a small thing to your setup and BOOM, it got really slow and unstable. I must have the deadly wm2d touch.

But here's a screen to show what I was going for...

(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x12/broli123/hansmt20.jpg)

Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 23, 2008, 12:13:56 AM
Don't trust Working Model 2D:

here's a self-accelerating WM2D model:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=2570 (http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=2570)

Reference thread: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156 (http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156)

 ;D ;D ;D

@niente

The simulation is invalid. Whoever did this put an illegal value in the field that specifies the mass of the polygon. Change it to 1.0 kg and it will behave as expected. See screenhot below. The programme should have rejected the value entered, but that is an editing problem not a real fault in the simulation.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: eavogels on May 23, 2008, 10:10:07 AM
@hartiberlin

LOL I like it. It is a chaos pendulum, I would be honored to build you a real one and video it and send it to you to post. I have everything I need to do it and it won't take 15 minutes to do. Just give me the go ahead and it will be done.

Hi Alan.
What material ways 100 KG in such a small ball-shape?
/Eric
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: fletcher on May 23, 2008, 10:23:46 AM
depleted uranium [twice the mass of lead] alloyed with unobtainuim - very popular in military cliques  ::)
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: exnihiloest on May 23, 2008, 11:08:22 AM
...
@exnihiloest,
...
Please also post your selfrunning WM2D files,
so we can all compare them and maybe put them
together and combine them to really get something going.

Many thanks.

Sorry Stefan I can't. I put my models to the trash after playing them and seeing they were out of interest for me to simulate reality. I didn't attach importance to them as I considered they were software bugs.
There was 2 or 3 pendulums with stochastic movements. I built them from an initial model some one else posted on a forum (after 1 or 2 years, I don't remember if it was here).
My selfrunning models were much simpler than this given by
erickdt (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4724.msg98265.html#msg98265).







Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 23, 2008, 02:47:27 PM
@eavogels

 LOL they where no where near 100kg or 220 lbs. More like 1 1/2 lbs but they where equal size. In the simulation I don't think the weight of the arm between them was taken into consideration. But I don't think it would not have mattered anyway. The weight on the test wheel when spun by hand rocked the stand so I had to add weights to the bottom of the stand, which showed a very unstable effect but a strong one hit action of Chaos. Any thing that would shake like that would if it could run would shake apart in a short time.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: eavogels on May 23, 2008, 05:04:08 PM
The weight are:
The upper weight has 100 Kg
the lower weight has 101 kg !
see Stephan's first post.

I have Stephan's wm2d sim running for a longer time and I can see that it is not perpetual. Right now the wheel is bumping back and forward between 1 o'clock and 5, allthough still moving. Back to the drawing table I guess...
Eric.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 23, 2008, 06:48:51 PM
eavogels

 With the rod between them the lower one will always have more weight. I still only looked at it as a Chaos Pendulum, myself.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: eavogels on May 23, 2008, 10:48:00 PM
I had a hard time to come into this site again but in the mean time I had Stephan's simulation running many times. They all stoped with the thick line pointing to 3 o'clock.
If someone else has another result perhaps wm2d gives different results for different processor speeds?
/Eric
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 24, 2008, 04:51:09 AM
@niente

The simulation is invalid. Whoever did this put an illegal value in the field that specifies the mass of the polygon. Change it to 1.0 kg and it will behave as expected. See screenhot below. The programme should have rejected the value entered, but that is an editing problem not a real fault in the simulation.

Hans von Lieven

I beg to differ Hans. If you input one gram (i.e 0.001 kg) it will still accelerate, be it at a slower rate.

And 1.000e-004 kg equals 0.0001 kg or a 10th of a gram, so this is certainly not an invalid value.
Bet that as it may, anything over one gram eventually stalls the model.

I can find nothing wrong with it frankly, it is completely symmetrical, with standard 1.00 kg weights for the individual components, gravity and air resistance active....

So what then? Program error?

If not...

Puzzling. I wonder if this can be built...  ???
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 24, 2008, 06:46:32 AM
@aquariuz


You misunderstand me, I did not say that this was not a valid mathematical expression. The program considers it an illegal value and crashes.
It would appear this field takes only integers.

Hans
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 24, 2008, 05:39:59 PM
@Hans

As a software engineer I can assure you they are using scientific filters to display data which is out of the ordinary range, this is quite common for scientific software. Again if you use a value of 0.001 KG (in decimal range) it still shows the acceleration. The same goes for Kinetic energy and all other variables which can be assigned to the model components. This makes a lot of sense, especially if you need to accuratly measure torque, drag, rotational accelleration and deacceleration. You simply cannot do it in another way because you will be quickly running into 32-bit calculation limitations. Variables like long, double, float can hold only so much accuracy behind the decimal point, so you will need at least represent your numbers scientifically to remain accurate to say around 100 places behind the decimal point.

I have contacted Design Simulation Technologies (makers wm2d) support about this last night, and have sent them the model. I am currently scaling it down from 100s of meters to .5 meter components and see if I can reproduce then as well. The reason this huge model works may even be earth rotation adding to momentum I have no clue.

It?s up to DST to prove their software is not failing here, if they debug the model and find nothing wrong Niente has Something which is definitly not "niente". If they do conclude it is a glitch I cannot possible see why wm2d should be used in the future by anyone unless they fix the specific coding errors which cause this.

Hans, I admire your work and writings, but on this particular point I emphatically disagree with you.  :)
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 25, 2008, 01:33:12 AM
G'day Aquariuz,

I am not a software engineer but I am a mechanical engineer. Apart from the fact that the simulation uses an impossible material for the coupling of the two bodies (It uses a material that is stronger than steel and lighter than hydrogen) I cannot see how the earth's rotation can influence the action of the wheel since there is no such parameter in the programme that I can find.

The programme should have thrown the value out as impossible, or at least have given a warning.

Remember the early chess programmes where you could play against the computer? You could win every game against the computer by making a series of irrational moves. The programme simply got so confused it went haywire and started sacrificing vital figures. I think something like this could be happening here.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 25, 2008, 01:47:26 AM
@Niente & Hans

I found the error thank god. The left polygon (6) has different dimensions than the other "spokes".

Poly 6 has a mass of 1Kg and momentum of 1500 Kg/m? as opposed to the other spokes who have mass of 1Kg and momentum of 1552.083 Kg/m?. You can clearly see the location of ply six on the plane as (-140,70) where the others are around (67.5,140), (140,67.5) and (67.5,140) non absolute.

Changing poly six?s dimensions gives a model that fails to make a single rotation. (Cannot be tested because max frames is 32765) corrected model attached.

So Hans is right, the model was invalid, but it had nothing to do with the notation of the small bar. So we were both at least a little bit right.

Please note the scientific notation in the momentum measurement window of polygon 2, the center rectangle.

I?ll copy DST on this, this looks like a bug, even though the model was not in balance, acceleration should not be possible. Downsizing the model gives about the same results as the attached corrected version.

Aquariuz
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 25, 2008, 01:54:35 AM
I am not a software engineer but I am a mechanical engineer. Apart from the fact that the simulation uses an impossible material for the coupling of the two bodies (It uses a material that is stronger than steel and lighter than hydrogen) I cannot see how the earth's rotation can influence the action of the wheel since there is no such parameter in the programme that I can find.

I just read your reply. Defending software is a bad habit!  :D

My old troubleshooting itch made me want to find the flaw and there you go. naturally the model is off the charts both marterial wise and dimension wise. I should have broken apart once Run was pressed. Fun program though, but appearantly not too reliable for Bessler tests as was remarked before...........

Thanks
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 25, 2008, 02:01:29 AM
Changing poly six?s dimensions gives a model that fails to make a single rotation. (Cannot be tested because max frames is 32765) corrected model attached.

The corrected model just started accelerating. I give up.

 ;D
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 25, 2008, 02:03:49 AM
Well done Aquariuz!

Good on you for applying your obvious expertise to a problem we have with the programme. Hopefully it will lead to better simulation software.

Thank you

Hans
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 25, 2008, 01:34:39 PM
G.day all,

I have had a bit of fun with Erick's creation. I just took some of the constraints off and it went really nuts. Something for you to look at Aquariuz.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 26, 2008, 12:29:50 AM
G.day all,

I have had a bit of fun with Erick's creation. I just took some of the constraints off and it went really nuts. Something for you to look at Aquariuz.

Hans von Lieven

It?s a spider creature from Sirius!!!! Edit: switch on Air Resistance (high) and it looks less alien.

 :D

PS: did hartiberlin give up on his model?? Looked promising.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AB Hammer on May 26, 2008, 12:45:26 AM
Greetings All

 I sent Stefan the videos and an extra one without the rod, making it just a twin pendulum wheel. It is up to him to post his design. I think I'll post the twin pendulum on my youtube though. He may be working on trying to change something and make a better version. So I would just wait until he is ready.

 I sent Hans a different version to take a look at, but I think I will reserve showing that one as for now.

Just an update.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: eavogels on May 26, 2008, 06:26:26 AM
IPS: did hartiberlin give up on his model?? Looked promising.
SInce the wm2d model stopped after a while, every time I tested it, I wondered if someone else could let it run for a little bit longer then Stephan's AVI showed. But no response.
/Eric
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 26, 2008, 08:43:30 PM
Sorry All,
haven?t had yet the time to continue working on it.
You know,you need at least a few hours of free time
to test and ponder about these designs in deepth
and can?t do it just, if you have only 20 minutes of free time..

Will continue soon.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: scott_z on May 29, 2008, 06:05:37 PM
Greetings users of Working Model simulation software.  I find the forum very interesting, but your conversations surrounding Working Model and the so-called "Chaos Pendulum" are very disheartening. It surprises me to see a couple true engineers involved in this conversation, yet the issue with the model has not been resolved.  It is not a software error.  It is a USER error.

I have reviewed the model called "BS7.wm2d". It looks like there were other slight derivations of this model but I will focus on the BS7 that contains the blue link. (By the way, the blue link was not necessary.  The way it was originally drawn in BS7.wm2d was acceptable).  I would like to comment on a some of the responses I have seen in these related postings, and I will quote the original sentences in the process.  After I am done I will gratefully reveal the ?imbalance? or ?acceleration? issue with the model. 

1.
Posted comment:  as related to the mass of the blue link.... "Whoever did this put an illegal value in the field that specifies the mass of the polygon"..."It would appear this field takes only integers"

response: wrong - Working Model will accept scientific notation (i.e. 1e-12)

2.
Posted comment:  "simulation uses an impossible material for the coupling of the two bodies"

Response:  wrong - In any motion simulation package you would know that this is a common practice used to utilize the geometry of a body (in this case a coupler link) but yet not have its mass contribute the solution. These tools are very powerful, but they still need some level of usage understanding.

3.
Posted comment:  "the whole thing seems to have been drawn using polygons...these are unreliable in this program when used in this way"

Response:  since when ?

4.
Posted comment:  "On the second (downloadable) model, the acceleration effect seems to be produced by the WEIGHT of the blue link bar. It set to (something) -03 default. Set it heavier, the effect goes away (completely by .01) make it lighter (-05) and the effect is more pronounced. I would bet it is a rounding error somewhere"

Response:  of course changing the mass of this bar will cause differences in the rotation imbalance...It's offset from the aggregate Center of Mass of the entire system (also center pivot point)

5.
Posted comment:  "Poly 6 has a mass of 1Kg and momentum of 1500 Kg/m? as opposed to the other spokes who have mass of 1Kg and momentum of 1552.083 Kg/m?. You can clearly see the location of ply six on the plane as (-140,70) where the others are around (67.5,140), (140,67.5) and (67.5,140) non absolute"

Response:  Yes, you are correct, and you are very close to the main issue... and you may read on to the very bottom here to see the solution... everyone else, please read on to #6 below.

6.
Posted comment:  "gravity is a spiral flux.. forget computer simulations..."

Response:  What ?

7.
Posted comment:  "this is yet another "glitch" in WM2D"

Response:  interesting... a software?s glitch or a User?s glitch ?

8.
Posted comment:  "Hopefully it will lead to better simulation software"

Response:  completely aside from this entire topic we are talking about, any simulation software can always be improved

9.
posted comment:  ".....Chaos Pendelum"

response:  ouch !


Ok, now the solution?.. Someone was very close when they observed the X,Y locations of the inner rectangles not being symmetric (see #5 above).  However, what was not checked were the X,Y locations of the 4 ?S?-shaped polygons on the outer bounds.  The Y values for two of them are not equal and opposite the other two (you can find this in the Properties window).  So, how might one test to find this to be the issue in the first place?  Well, after making the correction for the mass Moments for the inner polygons (#5 above), it still had the imbalance causing it to ?fall? (i.e. accelerate). Therefore, remove the center pivot, replace it with a velocity motor with a value of 0 and create a meter for the motor?s torque.  When this is done, you will see there is a torque of approx 3.3 N-m required to keep it at 0 velocity (this is the imbalance tendency  we are seeing).  Considering all mass values and all moment values are now symmetric in the model and there are no external forces acting, this would lead someone versed in BASIC physics to believe that the Center of Mass of the entire system does not coincide with the main center pivot.  Therefore, make the X,Y changes to the outer polygons and re-run.  The torque should be extremely small, if not 0.  To verify the original issue is ?visually? gone, remove the motor, re-add the pin joint and run.  It should not fall.

I will not argue the fact that Working Model does have some has some bugs. And if you find one, please post it on our forum at http://forums.design-simulation.com/  so that the software can be developed and improved to be more robust.  But clearly, this is not the case of a bug.  It is a User oversight on the simple tactics needed to debug motion simulation models.

I appreciate the work you are all doing and I am interested in continuing to learn of some of the work being done.  If you think you have an issue with the software and would like to discuss it, please email us at wm2d.support@design-simulation.com .  That is, of course, if you are using a LEGITIMATE copy of the software.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: broli on May 29, 2008, 06:38:47 PM
So basiclly all you did was correct the position...in other words you you just "fixed" the perpetual behaviour away  :o. That would be truely funny.

"Wait people lets put a nail in there.See we now that evil perpetual motion is gone."

What I found truely remarkable is the chance of niente getting this setup to accelerate. I'm going to spend some time with this one.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 29, 2008, 09:51:01 PM
However, what was not checked were the X,Y locations of the 4 ?S?-shaped polygons on the outer bounds.  The Y values for two of them are not equal and opposite the other two (you can find this in the Properties window). 

Hmmm. I missed that...

Thank you very much Scott.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 30, 2008, 12:28:52 AM
Greetings users of Working Model simulation software.  I find the forum very interesting, but your conversations surrounding Working Model and the so-called "Chaos Pendulum" are very disheartening. It surprises me to see a couple true engineers involved in this conversation, yet the issue with the model has not been resolved.  It is not a software error.  It is a USER error.

I
Ok, now the solution?.. Someone was very close when they observed the X,Y locations of the inner rectangles not being symmetric (see #5 above).  However, what was not checked were the X,Y locations of the 4 ?S?-shaped polygons on the outer bounds.  The Y values for two of them are not equal and opposite the other two (you can find this in the Properties window).  So, how might one test to find this to be the issue in the first place?  Well, after making the correction for the mass Moments for the inner polygons (#5 above), it still had the imbalance causing it to ?fall? (i.e. accelerate). Therefore, remove the center pivot, replace it with a velocity motor with a value of 0 and create a meter for the motor?s torque.  When this is done, you will see there is a torque of approx 3.3 N-m required to keep it at 0 velocity (this is the imbalance tendency  we are seeing).  Considering all mass values and all moment values are now symmetric in the model and there are no external forces acting, this would lead someone versed in BASIC physics to believe that the Center of Mass of the entire system does not coincide with the main center pivot.  Therefore, make the X,Y changes to the outer polygons and re-run.  The torque should be extremely small, if not 0.  To verify the original issue is ?visually? gone, remove the motor, re-add the pin joint and run.  It should not fall.


G'day Scott.

I can get the idea that an imbalance in the system (it being asymmetrical) will introduce torque. So, one would expect the system to turn until it finds equilibrium and wobble a bit maybe and eventually come to a standstill. It should however not go into an uncontrolled accelerating spin.

Are you seriously suggesting that if I build a contraption with the same initial imbalances in the system it will start spinning out of control? I think not. Therefore it would appear that this particular initial set-up triggers some problem in the programme.

If the programme is a genuine simulation, it should be able to simulate the behaviour of the device as drawn in a realistic fashion.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: AquariuZ on May 30, 2008, 12:45:57 AM
Are you seriously suggesting that if I build a contraption with the same initial imbalances in the system it will start spinning out of control? I think not. Therefore it would appear that this particular initial set-up triggers some problem in the programme.

I think he refers to the fact that two outer polygons were incorrectly placed on the grid, something you cannot do real world, thus creating a torque in the program which would not exist real world.

It would be debatable if the program should allow this or not, as it is just that, a simulation. Maybe an idea to add a check model function if the end goal is a symmetrical model?

Very hard to call, but from his reply I understand why it fails. Too bad this "flaw" cannot be built for real.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 30, 2008, 09:31:03 AM
I think he refers to the fact that two outer polygons were incorrectly placed on the grid, something you cannot do real world, thus creating a torque in the program which would not exist real world.

It would be debatable if the program should allow this or not, as it is just that, a simulation. Maybe an idea to add a check model function if the end goal is a symmetrical model?

Very hard to call, but from his reply I understand why it fails. Too bad this "flaw" cannot be built for real.

I don't think this is a valid argument. The guy is just defending his programme. The grid has nothing to do with it as it is just a marker to show where you are, The proof of the pudding is that if you only change marginally the value of the connecting piece the effect stops. There are  a number of other things you can do that will stop the programme misbehaving, I have tried a few. Very small alterations will effect its behaviour profoundly.

I am not buying it. I am also not fussed about his rather aggressive demeanor. I mean the guy was virtually calling us a bunch of idiots for querying his programme, when all we tried to do was help.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: scott_z on May 30, 2008, 02:53:24 PM
Quote 1:  "It should however not go into an uncontrolled accelerating spin"

Response:    If your model spins uncontrollably (without any inputs to it),  you probably have other issues with your setup...... Just to be clear, all of my previous comments were directed at the (corrected) model where the device was pinned to ground and there were no external inputs applied.  You then hit the Run button and the device should not move at all.  This would be expected considering there is no torque causing it to want to move (per my previous test for this) and the Center of Mass of the entire system resides at the same 0,0 of the main pivot.  When I first grabbed this model from the forum, the body positions (hence, Center of Mass) were not symmetric about the main pivot located at 0,0.  This makes sense as to why it would start to "fall" or "spin" when the Run button was hit, but not uncontrollably.  It did accelerate (due to the imbalance).  And yes, it if friction were presen, it would eventually come to rest.  However, are you confusing an "uncontrolled accelrating spin" with too large of an "Animation Step" ???   If the original model (with the imbalance) is the one you are still working with, and it is spinning uncontrollably, try decreasing your "Animation Step" to something like .005 s and your "Integrator Error" to something like .001 m.  Many times it may look like a model is going crazy but it is simly because the step size is too large (like drawing a cartoon on 50 pages vs. 500 pages). There are some other things to consider but I would rather post such detail on our forum rather than here. 

I have attached a model (BS7-corrected.wm2d).  When you hit the Run button, neither model should move at all.  The one on the left has a free pivot and is balanced.  The model on the right is also balanced and has a velocity motor with a value of 0 (locking it).  The torque should be at or near 0.

Quote 2:  "I am also not fussed about his rather aggressive demeanor. I mean the guy was virtually calling us a bunch of idiots for querying his programme, when all we tried to do was help."

Response:  This is not true.  To me it appeared that because everyone had given up on the fact it was accelerating, uncontrollably spinning, or whatever, that the software program basically did not work.  If people are going to use these tools, they need to be used correctly with an understanding of at least some of the basic theory behind how they solve the equations of motion and when and where the User might need to intervene with adjustments.

Now, using the corrected model, here is something that might be of interest.  Apply the pin joint AND a motor at the same location.  For the motor, set the value at something like 60 deg/sec.  For the "Active When" field, set it to TIME<3.  When you run the simulation, the motor will be deactivated and the device will freewheel (there is no friction).  See my second attached model (BS7-corrected_w_free wheel.wm2d).



Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 31, 2008, 02:14:08 AM
G'day Scott,

My apologies for being a bit hard on you.

The fact remains that I still think there is a problem with the programme. When I first tested the simulation I could get the programme to work as expected by changing a single value, hence my suspicion it was the value entered in the connecting bar that caused the programmme to behave as it did. See my original post below.

Now, if I can do this, it cannot be a problem with the animation steps. The imbalance is still there and the programme caters for it in the way one would expect. The animation steps are also unchanged. So both of these factors are NOT the cause. It is interesting to note however that by balancing the elements the programme works as expected. Maybe a combination of factors is responsible here for the erratic behaviour.

I am a mechanical engineer,not a software engineer; I do have a fair amount of experience with programming though. These are just my impressions.

I like the programme, it is useful as it is and I wish you the best of luck with it.

Greetings from Australia

Hans von Lieven



@niente

The simulation is invalid. Whoever did this put an illegal value in the field that specifies the mass of the polygon. Change it to 1.0 kg and it will behave as expected. See screenhot below. The programme should have rejected the value entered, but that is an editing problem not a real fault in the simulation.

Hans von Lieven

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4724.0;attach=23670;image)
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Bessler007 on August 23, 2008, 08:47:36 PM
Hello Hans,

If you make two compasses with rods pivioting on precisely placed bodies and adjust the rod lengths (x,y in a unit circle) you can connect the loose ends to find a precise point.

Another way is to paste a calculated value into the length of a rectangular body pivoting from one end;  then set the angle appropriately (relative polar coordinates).

No matter which way you precisely place bodies, wm2d has a serious flaw in it's calculus.  You're right not to trust it.  You're also very correct to think the more mass in motion in wm2d the less it's ability to track it.

I have more confidence in a piece of paper and a pencil..


@steve,

Yes, polygons are a problem. Fletcher found this out too.

@erick,

You have run into the same trouble as I did. I think the moment you have 8 kinetic bodies in the simulation the thing goes haywire. It cannot cope with that many moving parts.

@ all,

One of the problems I have found is that it is extremely difficult to place parts accurately. You really have to get into high magnification to see it. This throws the whole thing into disarray. I had one simulation today that behaved irrationally until I found the culprit to be an imbalance in the system caused by poor placement of components.

At any rate it's been fun, sort of anyway. Or has it? ???     ;D

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Low-Q on November 20, 2008, 11:34:22 PM
Hi All,
almost falling asleep at my PC I finally changed a few settings
with a rod only version and only 2 weights and suddenly I came up
with an endless rotating wheel !
Which also speeds up from time to time.

It uses the centrifugal forces.

It is very easy to setup.
A disc with 200Kg weight, being 2.54 Meters in diameter,
the 2 weights hang each at 1.20 Meter from the axis.
The upper weight has 100 Kg
the lower weight has 101 kg !
the upper rod is 0.600 Meters long
the lowerrod is 0.601 Meters long
The connection rod between the 2 weights is 3.056 Meters long.

It never stops, although I did set air resistance already very strong and
also enabled the friction model.

I will also now post amovie of it  in the next message.
Here is the WM2D file:

http://www.overunity.com/bessler

Enjoy !

Regards, Stefan.

I havent read all the replies, but what happens if you scale down the size and use 100g weights in stead of 100kg, and a 200g disc instead of 200kg. I bet a lot of the work is done by the enormous inertia you have in such weight.
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Bronco on July 09, 2016, 12:35:32 AM
 interesting  :)
Title: Re: I have a working Bessler wheel in my simulation !
Post by: Ghazanfar_Ali on November 09, 2017, 08:55:46 PM
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Dear its my own invention. Please subscribe and check this out. I tested the simulation and is still running without any break.[/size]
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