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Author Topic: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.  (Read 13966 times)

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 04:09:47 PM »
Here is a new and better picture of my idea.

The idea is that the torque from the buoyancy in cylinder B, C, and D should defeat the differential force that exist between 2-6, 4-8 and 3-7 and still have torque to spear.
I will point out that this wheel is not going to be tested in water, but in a heavy gas. If the gas have the same atmospheric pressure and density at the bottom as on the top, will it take energy to displace gas at the bottom and consume the same amount at the top?
And the question is: Will it make any difference in using gas instead of water?

Here is an example of a heavy gas that can be used:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpWjR8r_Uvc

Here is the model. The green numbered arrows, represent the force that acts on the pistons.

TinselKoala

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2008, 05:33:42 PM »
That linkage would be mechanically feasible for one pair of pistons, as you showed in your earlier animation, but with several like here, the linkage is impossible. It requires parts to interpenetrate, at the axis.

Now, ignoring that, the substitution of a heavy gas to eliminate the pressure gradient doesn't change anything, because the pressure gradient in water isn't what prevented the submerged wheel from operating in the first place. It's the fact that, in all these configurations, as broli has discovered, the Work Out equals the Work In, once you have found all the masses that are being moved and account for them.

Keep thinking, though.

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 08:09:31 PM »
That linkage would be mechanically feasible for one pair of pistons, as you showed in your earlier animation, but with several like here, the linkage is impossible. It requires parts to interpenetrate, at the axis.

Now, ignoring that, the substitution of a heavy gas to eliminate the pressure gradient doesn't change anything, because the pressure gradient in water isn't what prevented the submerged wheel from operating in the first place. It's the fact that, in all these configurations, as broli has discovered, the Work Out equals the Work In, once you have found all the masses that are being moved and account for them.

Keep thinking, though.
I have been blind on the thaught that a gas (maybe water) in the same gas (or water) is relatively weightless, thus it isn't more work done by moving it upwards than sideways. The second thing that made me blind, was the thaught of a volatile gas (maybe water) which didn't "care" where the gas (maybe water) came from to fill up the cylinders rear side as the vacuum volume are decreasing gradually from the rightmost part to the leftmost part of the wheel. If we make a bubble of vacuum in this tank of heavy gas, I have been thinking of a net force working on the linkages due to vacuum in both cylinders and the possible difference in atmospheric pressure on the upper and lower pistons.

Do you have any comments on these thaughts?

Br.
Vidar

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2008, 08:32:19 AM »
What happens if we attach a bubble or a springload right in the center on the rods?
This bubble contains a volume equivalent to the mass of displaced water + pressure differance + weight of the rod and pistons.
If spring loaded the force upwards will be adjusted accordingly.

This bubble or spring load is following the path of the linkages. The buoyancy of this volume, or force of the spring load, will equalize the force needed to displace water, the pressure difference, and the weight of the rod and pistons, regardless of angle of the system.

This bubble or spring load have only one task: To equalize the factors that stop this wheel from spinning.

I have attached a picture to show you how it can be solved with a weight. Now it will never require force or energy to lift the water upwards. So left there will be only the torque from the buoyancy from the empty space on the right side.

Did I miss anything?



Br.

Vidar
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 09:30:37 AM by Low-Q »

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2008, 10:15:26 AM »
Further we can put this model in a wheel:

There is some small text in the picture.

spinner

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2008, 11:07:50 AM »
Hi, T-Koala,
That linkage would be mechanically feasible for one pair of pistons, as you showed in your earlier animation, but with several like here, the linkage is impossible. It requires parts to interpenetrate, at the axis.
I think the "interpenetrating parts" are technically rather easy doable (axle bypass pipes). The main technical obstacles are still (not mentioning a conservative principles...) a really high friction with vacuum-tight pistons, a very bad force parallelogram (look at the Force vectors in certain areas - a  piston-push circular offset...).... etc...
Quote
Now, ignoring that, the substitution of a heavy gas to eliminate the pressure gradient doesn't change anything, because the pressure gradient in water isn't what prevented the submerged wheel from operating in the first place. It's the fact that, in all these configurations, as broli has discovered, the Work Out equals the Work In, once you have found all the masses that are being moved and account for them.

Keep thinking, though.
This idea (gravity/buoyancy) using a "vacuum"/volume  in a dense gas  environment has some advantages and many disadvantages comparing to a "common" (Air/water) buoyancy combinations....  Of course, both concepts should be "less effective" than a classical overbalanced wheel (weights in a normal atmosphere, sorry, gravity)...

The buoyancy difference between the gasses/fluids should define the theoretical "buoyancy difference" leading to a (possible) overbalance and potentially work performed. Mass in a gravity field has a better potential difference in relation to any buoyancy concept so far, so it's a way to go....  ;)


Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2008, 05:02:49 PM »
How many buoyancy wheels has been built or designed based on vacuum?

Do they only exist on paper? At least mine does...

Is vacuum, as a non-material, a part of thermodynamics?

Wouldnt vacuum be the absolute zero-energy level? Wouldn't it allways be a potential difference in an environment full of matter?

Vidar

TinselKoala

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 12:04:40 AM »
Some, sort of:
From the Simanek site:

1833 [No. 6510] Barthelemy Richard Comte de Predaval of Leicester Place, London, Engineer. Complicated mess of water, turning cylinder, drum, pistons, friction plates, springs, etc. It acts "by a joint power derived from the buoyancy of a body in fluids, and the weight of a body in vacuo." (A joint stock company was based on this patent.) Long description in Dircks (1861) pp. 420-427, with four drawings. A rotating drum is in a cylinder. Carefully machined "seals" divide the space between drum and cylinder into a left portion, filled with water, and the right portion in a vacuum. Buoyancy was expected to keep it turning. The inventor describes a simple experiment with a half-drum intended to demonstrate the ability of the buoyant force to turn the half-drum.

"Wouldnt vacuum be the absolute zero-energy level? Wouldn't it allways be a potential difference in an environment full of matter?"

Pretty much. That's why it's so hard to find a real vacuum. For example, I'm working with a vacuum chamber about the size of a washing machine. Say 200 liters capacity or so. Call one atmosphere of pressure 1 million microns. It takes a mechanical roughing pump about an hour to get the chamber down to 1000 microns, then another hour to get to 100 microns, then another hour to get to 10 microns. Then I start the turbo-molecular pump. It takes 10 minutes to speed up, but then it fairly quickly gets the chamber down to below 1 micron (or 10e-3 Torr).  After a couple hours, we are down to the mid 10e-6 Torr, and I can turn on the high-voltage ion pumps, which are totally electrical and have no moving parts. If things are looking good, I can valve off and shut down the mechanical pumps at this stage. By evening the chamber may be down to 10e-8 Torr. But there is STILL air in there, and other stuff too. At these pressures, almost everything has a detectable vapor pressure. So when I fire up the residual gas analyzer I might be able to detect water, air gases, crud from lubricants and seals, even some metals, you name it. And that's in a medium-hard laboratory vacuum, far better than anything you are going to be able to achieve by pulling on plungers.
In fact, any vacuum that's in direct contact with water can't be lower pressure than the vapor pressure of water at that temperature.

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2008, 10:29:58 AM »
Thanks for the information above :)

Can't you start with an initial vacuum made by pulling a piston out? If you use CNC made mechanism, you start with no volume, at least a micro-volume. Then you pull back the piston by a great force. Let's say you manage to get 1 micrometer average space between the piston and the bottom of the cylinder. Then you pull the piston out to one meter. Shouldn't you get 1micro bar in an instant? Then you can continue to pump out the rest of it. You will save alot of time I guess.
With my biggest squirt, I fill some of the volume at the bottom with vaseline to prevent space when I press the piston to the bottom. Then I seal the aperture, and I visually inspect the bottom to see there is no bubbles in there. Then I pull back the piston. A scale show me that I use the same force of pull all the way - about 2,7kg - according to the area of the cylinder too. That rubber piston will in fact not leak. I pulled it out for a few minutes. When I released it, the piston went back to the bottom, and no visible bubbles after a few minutes of vacuum. I was quite surprised it worked that well.

Of course, if you have 200 liters, the great area of the piston would be hard to pull out...

br.

Vidar

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2008, 12:50:55 PM »
Hi,

I understand now that I have to use my hand and energy to lift up the weight in water displaced by the cylinders in order to have a rotating buoyancy wheel. So I now replaced that hand with hollow pistons that have the amount of volume required to lift itself up, making it easy for the pistons to move that water upwards. There is no limit how much volume it can be that lifts the pistons upwards. And still it will be possible to have the very same buoyancy difference between left and right.

Where is the flaw? It must be a flaw, so where is it?

br.

Vidar
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 01:23:41 PM by Low-Q »

Low-Q

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Re: Idea on how to trick the conservative gravity - a very possible solution.
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2008, 12:51:36 PM »
.