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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: Farlander on May 08, 2008, 11:10:03 PM
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Hi All,
I first heard about Stan's water car about 2 weeks ago and since then I haven't been able to stop reading about the idea (thus I found this wonderful site). I've shared the concept with basically everyone I know, and nobody takes it seriously. However I'm convinced that this technology has promise, and have come to the conclusion that the only way to prove it is to build one. I don't want to profit off the idea, but do want to share with the world what could be a revolution in energy, ecology, and freedom from oil dependency.
My big dilemma is identifying the components necessary to replicate a Meyers cell. Here's what I (think) I know:
He used 316L grade stainless steel pipes, with a gap of about 1/16" (if anybody could verify the pipes' ID's and OD's in mm that would be spectacular)
He used a "pulse generator" to adjust the voltage and frequency of the current (is one available on the market ready-made)? Otherwise, what are the proper coils, capacitors, resistors, diodes, etc. needed?
He used several large (100 ohm?) resistors to curtail the flow of electrons between the negative exciter plate and ground.
If anybody has good parts sources or item descriptions it would be much appreciated.
Thanks a bunch you guys, this is a very exciting time,
Best Regards
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see below
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Here is a specific document regarding a Meyers HHO replication.
http://merlib.org/files/pgfed/D14.pdf
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Thanks a bunch Feynman. It's people like yourself who may yet save the world from itself.
Question -- would welding the positive and negative wires to the stainless steel pipes affect their resonant frequency/properties??
Also, what kind of dial or knob could be connected to the circuitry for adjusting the frequency and voltage (assuming one was not sophisticated and using a USB controller)? Would a light bulb dimmer switch work?
Are their any special criteria for the types of wires used as far as gauges or composition?
Feynman, does your circuitry need a coil to convert 12v DC to, say, 500v DC? What size coil would be appropriate for building a Meyers cell that had, say, 12 pairs of 18" long tubes?
Thousand thanks
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Thanks!
Question -- would welding the positive and negative wires to the stainless steel pipes affect their resonant frequency/properties??
I doubt it!
Also, what kind of dial or knob could be connected to the circuitry for adjusting the frequency and voltage (assuming one was not sophisticated and using a USB controller)? Would a light bulb dimmer switch work?
Well, I would use the solid-state setup (two 555 timers) described in the PDF. For this setup, you would just use a potentiometer (variable resistor) to control the oscillation frequency, pulse width, etc. A light dimmer might work. But you can get a real potentiometer at Radio Shack for like $0.99. ;)
What I would do is make a parts list from that PDF and just order everything you need from Digikey or Jameco. That will be way cheaper than Radio Shack. I would suggest you 'improvise' as few parts as possible, especially when you are starting out. That will save you alot of headaches. Also, the components used in this setup are very inexpensive from what I can tell. I will draw up a parts list and post it on my blog. ;D
Are their any special criteria for the types of wires used as far as gauges or composition?
Nope, its just gotta handle the amps you are pushing. For the portions of the circuit before the MOSFET, you can any type of wire, since the voltages and amperages are very low (24 gauge, 32gauge, whatever). I would suggest getting a prototype board like this one...
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/level.itml/icOid/6884
Prototype boards are great, they will save you so many headaches when you are developing a circuit. Anyway, so no you don't need special wire until the MOSFET. The mosfet is your "power transistor" that does the heavy duty amp switching. After the MOSFET, you probably want 18 guage or better since this will be carrying an amp or two. The exact guage you need depends on the number of amps. Here is a chart
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Feynman, does your circuitry need a coil to convert 12v DC to, say, 500v DC? What size coil would be appropriate for building a Meyers cell that had, say, 12 pairs of 18" long tubes?
I'm not sure what you mean by this... do you mean circuitry on my blog or that PDF I posted? Cause I didn't have anything to do with the PDF, I just found it an hour ago. Heheh. I can tell you how to build high voltage DC electrolysis, but I'm not sure thats what your question is. In that PDF they are using 12VDC for electrolysis. In the blog post I mention 500V, but the HV power supply is not pictured.
What size coil would be appropriate for building a Meyers cell that had, say, 12 pairs of 18" long tubes?
Well what voltage do you want? That's the question!
Cheers!
Feynman
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Stanley Meyer Demo Electrolyzer (HHO generator)
Parts List
by Feynman / overunity.com
Resistors (all 1 watt unless specified):
10kohm pot: 2
47kohm pot: 2
220 ohm : 1
820 ohm : 1
100 Ohm (1/2 watt): 6
Capacitors:
100uF 16V electrolytic 2
47uF 16V electrolytic 1
10uF 16V electrolytic 1
1uF 16V electrolytic 1
10nF 20V ceremic 3
100nF 20V ceremic 1
220nF 20V ceremic 1
Diodes:
1N4148 4
1N4007 1
Switches
SPST on/offswitch 1
SPDT toggle switch 1
SPTT selector switch 2
MOSFETs (with LV/HV option):
BUZ350 2
IRF840 2
Other:
555 timer 2
6amp fuse 1
ammeter (optional) 1
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This is my first post here, but I just wanted to let folks know that components for the Meyers Replication by Dave Lawton is available as a kit (or fully assembled) at http://www.pwmpower.com
Thx
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Thanks!
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Conventional Electrolysis Theory and Cell Construction:
http://waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Tero/series_cell_v1.2.pdf
Smack Cell HHO Cell Construction
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.html
Stanley Meyer Theory Details:
http://waterfuelcell.org/concept.html
Zero Fossil Fuel's videos:
http://youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel
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Stanley Meyer International Independent Test Evaluation Report
NEW 0DAY!!!
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/ForumPDFs/International%20Independent%20Test%20Evaluation%20Report.pdf
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Dude I have to say you probably get this all the time but you are the MAN! You're effort and enthusiasm on this subject is formidable and I praise you sky high for all the help and info provided. EXCELLENT post on the basics of Meyers' story and the results of that research.
I'm going to do a ton more independent research before I waste your time with mundane questions, thanks again for all the consideration. Will post again soon!
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I'm about to order all those parts for the Lawton circuit.(http://photos-137.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v287/124/102/26004137/n26004137_31750677_4805.jpg)
I would like the circuit to be able to handle 60 amps at 12V DC. I'm going to use a heavy duty 12 volt trickle charger as my power source. Does anyone suggest the circuitry components be beefed up, particularly, diodes and mosfet? Given the choke coil use and restrictive property of distilled water I would expect the circuit will draw very few amps once mature. However, initially, the tubes must be oxidized, increasing resistance to current flow. Once the tube is oxidized, much less amperage will be drawn. I'm expecting a loss at the transformer is that correct?
I'm assuming an auto ignition coil will work as the T1 Step-Up Transformer? I would like to achieve 20,000 volts into the cell, and hopefully 40-80kV at the positive electrode (outer tube right)?
I will probably be making the bifilar wound choke coil by hand. Found a great video on youtube of some guy by his window and how to make one of these. Thanks guy.
Still looking for specifics on frequency and mark/space maxs and mins using the dave lawton circuit.
One final question..........
How many turns of magnet wire on a coil is necessary to resist current flow? I think this length has something to do with the resonance frequency, where reactance must equal inductance. (Or, pull = push in a circuit) I've thought that perhaps this process induces an ultrasonic vibration in the tubes by magnetizing them temporarily.
Thanks so much everyone. I've gotten this far because of you all. I have a steady income now so I can really start devoting effort towards building this cell. I plan to use as many tubes as possible in the cell, as long as possible. Right now I'm going to try it would with a nice stainless steel shower curtain rod. The walls are thin but definitely stainless and the gap very closely inside each other. If that works, it's a very cheap and effective stainless tube to use in production. I eventually hope to build an ICE that runs off hydrogen by increasing the compression in the cylinders with a burst of water from the stock fuel injectors. The combination of water and hydrogen explosion could create the compression and steam necessary to push the piston. Perhaps ionizing the piston or injectors or installing a laser light spark plug. I think this is most easily tested on an older car because of the adjustable distributor cap for varying timing.
I'm so pumped up
I tell so many people about this and they all blow it off. Every time I say ok fuck them if they don't want to know fuck 'em. But then I always tell somebody else, and each time it sucks but I keep doing it.
I just want to do this thing and get it to the people.
PEACE
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Farlander,
The D14 circuit that you have posted is the one that pulses and unregulated alternator. Are you planning on using an alternator?
If you are planning on using an alternator, then the Lawton D14 is technically not required. A simplified version of the pulsing circuit can be used.
The design that you have posted has been replicated by hundreds of people and they have published their results in many forums. I'm not trying to be negative, but duplicating the Lawton/Ravi design is not going to produce what you are expecting.
I know that you are exited. I have been there also, telling everyone that will listen about hydrogen generators. Spent months researching the internet reading everything that I could find on the subject. Spent enormous amounts of money on parts. Constructed a tube cell, built the Lawton D14 PWM, and was slightly disappointed.
If you look at Meyers patents, you will see that the pulse generator that he uses in most of his patents (except for his injectors) is an unregulated alternator. Some people claim that the alternator has been rewound, but I find that it works just fine with the factory windings. All you have to do is remove the voltage regulator and capacitor, use the existing diode bridge and hook it to your cell. Use a PWM to pulse the rotor and off you go.
Not trying to burst your bubble, just trying to save you lots of time, money and frustration.
There are many useful and practical designs out there. Take your time and don't jump into it too quick. There are many people that are on the verge of cracking this nut, and once it has been acomplished, it will be published and emailed to every one that has an interest.
LapperLL
See my projects page at:
http://mouserebellion.com/publicforum/ (http://mouserebellion.com/publicforum/)
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Here are some links, Including where to buy everything for the Lawton and Boyce replacations. This includes EVERYTHING to go from clueless to installing!!
Have fun
Steve
Keep trying as there are a lot of people downloading this data so the limits are exceeded......
LINKS:
Youtube Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/raviwfc
Check the forum links below for all the WFC info:
http://www.oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1602
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3079.0.html
http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/browse/srawofni/33693
or
http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/browse/waterfuel/42765
(Plans in the above links)
http://www.web-space.tv/free-energy/Chapt10.html
http://waterfuel.t35.com/wf_meyer_ravi.html
Following link is a single point source of Dave Lawton approved kit and component seller:
http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/batteries/shop.htm
R.
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Farlander,
Here are some additional links that you might find helpful in deciding what electrolyser to build:
http://www.hydroxy.net/wiki/Document_Library (http://www.hydroxy.net/wiki/Document_Library) Here is a list of pdf construction docs of electrolysers people have successfully replicated.
http://www.waterforfuel.com/ (http://www.waterforfuel.com/) Check out Kevin's blog. Only one of the few that are actually utilizing the technology.
http://hydrogengarage.com/home.html (http://hydrogengarage.com/home.html) Here you can purchase components and kits and also a lot of useful info
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/ (http://www.panaceauniversity.org/) This one is a little extreme but again lots of useful info. Click on the Hydroxy boosters or water fuel cell replication under coming soon.
Like I said previously, there are a lot of different designs that you can choose from.
LapperLL
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Farlander,
The D14 circuit that you have posted is the one that pulses and unregulated alternator. Are you planning on using an alternator?
Eventually yes, that's why it happens to be on my schematic. To start with I will prefer the comfort of home and be using a 12 volt trickle charger. Initially I will be using the other Lawton style circuit, with direct contacts instead of rotor winding pickups. How square is the wave of a trickle charger?
The design that you have posted has been replicated by hundreds of people and they have published their results in many forums. I'm not trying to be negative, but duplicating the Lawton/Ravi design is not going to produce what you are expecting.
I agree, which is why I want to boost the internals of the circuitry to handle major amps. I hope to generate at least 15 liters a minute, what I think would be necessary to power an ICE. I still need more information on what components need upgrading.
Not trying to burst your bubble, just trying to save you lots of time, money and frustration.
Thanks for the opinion Lapper, I don't get discouraged easily and I appreciate you trying to save me time and money. Nothing worth doing is easy.
Any thoughts on the idea of combining HHO gas and water in the combustion chamber to produce extra compression and maybe steam power?
Thanks all
Car that runs on water
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look this !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-zkZFjet9w&feature=related
Gustav Pese
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Usually I would never speak negatively about another's post but since this is my thread, I must interject. That video was an ad for an HHO booster cell. Don't bother watching it's total bullshit and not even relevant to this thread. These HHO booster cells are pure horse crap. They are a huge scam, a farce on level with the 'hybrid' car and 'ethanol fuel'. Electrolyte is used, current is consumed, and is doesn't solve our oil dependency.
PLUS !! HHO burns much quicker than gasoline. In fact, injecting this stuff into an ICE with a high enough degree of spark advance will IMPEDE performance, since the gas will be exploding prior to Top Dead Center of the piston. Gasoline has a more latent burn than HHO. I don't see any of these booster cell guys talking about timing adjustments, or any real data for that matter. Second of all, I've noticed a lot of doubters, doublespeakers, and general misinformants around these types of forums, you know who you are, everybody else watch out for them and their info. that sounds like a load of shit cuz it probably is.
Merry Independence Day! Are you ready to earn it back?!
Car that runs on water
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Where is your design? What input power? How many liters/min HHO? If you don't have the answers, I'll assume you are a fraud and agent of misinformation, trying to steer people away from the right track.
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Farlander,
I assume that you were referring to me on that last post.
Where is your design? What input power? How many liters/min HHO? If you don't have the answers, I'll assume you are a fraud and agent of misinformation, trying to steer people away from the right track.
I'm sorry that I have not responded to your earlier post. I just heard about this site and have not been frequenting it.
I have actually built several cells and do not use any electrolyte just plain tap water. My the best producing cell that I have built is an open air tube cell that uses a circulation pump . I have been able to achieve 500ml in 43 seconds. I have not seen many people that can better those numbers with no electrolyte.
I am powering my cell with an unregulated alternator powered by a 2hp electric motor. I am spinning the alternator at roughly 3,000 rpm and pulsing the rotor with a Lawton D14 PWM. I am pulsing the rotor with 8volts 1.3 amps and putting out 24 volts and 30 amps.
Here is a picture of the setup.
Like I said, sorry I did not respond sooner.
And yes, I do have some thoughts about combining HHO and water. There was a video on U-Tube that had a white van in Japan that ran on water. In that video, the process did exactly that. It turned it basically into a steam engine.
I found the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HivxQN_G8tA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HivxQN_G8tA) . I like the fact that you can edit your own posts here. :)
But that is a whole different topic.
LapperLL
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No Reply ???
I see you had time to post the same question in this other thread though.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3549.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3549.0.html)
I also noticed that they were using the alternator set up at that thread. ::)
Wish you luck!
LapperLL
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Thanks for proving me wrong about you.
I seek a good circuit design, as it is apparent to me now that the Lawton style is not sufficient to produce the frequency or voltage needed for 15+ liters/min of HHO
Did you find with your setup that the proportion of current consumed decreased with each additional pair of electrodes?
AAHH!H!!
Here is the video link
http://hydrogencollective.com/packetpulser1.mpg
Found here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3549.80.html
Car that runs on water