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Author Topic: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device  (Read 272073 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #540 on: November 03, 2017, 11:47:05 PM »
Quick note to Dr.Jones

The selfless men here and elsewhere who share their hard work and spend  their hard earned money  need the most thanks ,
and they do this at no charge to the community , their reward is the hope for a better planet.

and just a note to one of those men
Brad
Carroll was most likely rushing when he read your post, he has had unbelievable stress and personal issues in his life the last year or more ,and still keeps trying to help out here, including sending a Motor to Luc for testing.

he was traveling thru most of the recent issues at the other forum

I know he just got back from a 1600 mile road trip a cpl days ago and is turning around to leave again tomorrow AM to do it all over again.[due to a family crisis ]

Carroll is a wonderful fellow too...

this will all work out for the good

please try to understand ,

respectfully
Chet K


Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #541 on: November 04, 2017, 12:35:10 AM »
web 1
I had already thought of that and tried it, but it didn't post and everything locked up. Will try it once more.


Brad,
How did I get to the 60 watt hours per battery? I went by the load test LUC did on those batteries prior to beginning this test, which he talks about in his first video. Those are HIS numbers not mine. Two were at 60 and one at 53 BEFORE he drained it for testing.


I ABSOLUTELY objected to the test that Luc is running. I was VERY, VERY upset. He did two videos  a year ago, debunking this system  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph4chWT3Ap0&t=2s  (watch from about 8 minutes in as he reports results)
NOT using the right size batteries and NOT using the right kind of motor and NOT rotating the batteries. The only change he made is that in THIS test he rotated the batteries. I felt that by NOT replicating the system the way it works ALL the time, he ran a risk of testing a system that WOULD NOT WORK and sharing results that did NOTHING but reinforce the people who have said this is crap for the last ten years. I figured the odds of THAT system working were no better than 50/50, and it pissed me off that ONCE AGAIN I was about to be debunked by someone who wouldn't DO what we have been telling people to do. So YES my tune changed when I could see that it was going to give the results I know it has the potential to give. But what if it hadn't? Would I once again be trying to defend myself from a bunch of people who claim I am WRONG because "THEY KNOW" from their "GREAT EXPERIENCE" that this won't work? You BET I would. And I believe I have the absolute RIGHT to be upset when someone leaves out MOST of the things you know make a system work, and then claims that they are replicating what you have done. That has happened to me over and over and over to the point I have little to NO patience with folks anymore. I am WAY beyond this little 3 Battery setup in my experiments, and ready to bring some things to market. It is several steps backward to even MESS with this, and I don't have the time. But I DO care about folks out there and I honestly believe that this will set people on a path to some of the things I have seen.


Yes, I locked the thread on Energetic forum, have pretty much said goodbye on Luc's thread, and am about done here as well. I have an opportunity to make some money off the things I have learned so that my wife can retire, and I intend to take advantage of it. I have made commitments to some folks I will honor, but I do not have the time to spend on the forums. I had minor surgery on my foot, so I have been laying around for about a week or I wouldn't be here NOW.
[size=78%]
[/size]
    I HAVE attempted to share this information with folks on other forums, and here is my latest response:[/font]     
I prefer to stick with those boring old laws of thermodynamics, somewhat supported by the fact that no over unity device has ever made it into common usage, something that would certainly have happened if they actually worked. There is no suppressed knowledge, there are more than enough independent millionaires to bring this stuff out if it were ever possible. I am also reasonably confident that electricity works pretty much exactly as we think it does. A heat pump is not an 'over unity' device, it relies on the fact that wherever there is a usuable energy gradient, some power can be extracted in a usable form. A typical heat gradient device might be a Stirling cycle engine.[/size]

[/size]
    I hope folks will follow what Luc has done and will do, and that it convinces a few to follow in his footsteps. He is a better man than I. I would not waste the days it took to do the testing. I believe folks have the responsibility to do it on their own. Or they get what they deserve. I've gotten real cranky in my old age.[/font]

[/size]


   
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 04:58:05 AM by Dbowling »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #542 on: November 04, 2017, 03:37:23 AM »
The only change he made is that in THIS test he rotated the batteries.

Hi Dave

I made more changes to my new test then just rotating the batteries.

1. Used two new fully charged batteries on the input
2. Load tested each battery several time to know their watt/hr capacity
3. Made sure the motor I selected would not exceed the battery C/20 rating which is 0.25 Amps. The motor used even less (0.15 Amp average)
4. Yes, I also rotated the batteries


I agree that the test I did last year which BTW was not intended as direct replication of your work, did not use a good combination of components to prove what I'm now seeing since I tried to do it in a short video which now I can see is not possible.
Once all the tests are done and all is confirmed I intend to delete those two video I made last year and make a new video with all the new test data at high speed so you see it in 5 minute or so.

Things look to only be getting better.

Regards

Luc

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #543 on: November 04, 2017, 06:15:46 AM »
Luc,
I appreciate that you are getting good results and are publishing the data for everyone to see, and I am feeling vindicated by the whole process. However, I would still encourage anybody building this to do it with bigger batteries and a pulse motor. I would hate to see it NOT WORK and have people think this is not for real. THAT is my biggest concern.


Brad,
Here is the statement Luc made that Matt and I took exception to, and now that I am a little calmer about this, maybe I can get across to you WHY we did not agree with what Luc said. It concerns the statement he made about measurements, which YOU defended. You guys have to realize you are dealing with something a little different here and standard measurement methods can be deceiving. His statement is below. The part that most concerned us of Luc's, i put in bold. The statements in CAPS are mine


     If battery 1 & 2 are connected in series and are 12 volts each = 24 volts and the current is measured at 1 amp = 24 watts entering the motor and if battery 3 is at 12 volts and the current entering it is measured at 1 amp = 12 watts entering battery 3.[/font]
 
 So if we have 24 watts coming out from input batteries and 12 watts going in the charge battery it means half of the input power is being used by the motor and potentially half recovered by the charge battery.

24 WATTS IS GOING INTO THE MOTOR AND IT IS CONSUMING 12. REALLY? I DON'T THINK SO, OR LUC WOULD NOT BE GETTING THE RESULTS HE IS GETTING. HARDLY ANYTHING IS CONSUMED BY THE MOTOR. THERE IS ONLY 12 WATTS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR. THE OTHER 12 WATTS+ THAT COMES OUT OF THE CHARGE BATTERIES IS NEUTRALIZED BY THE 12 WATTS+ COMING OUT OF BATTERY 3. CAN THIS BE PROVEN? SURE!!! TWO DIFFERENT WAYS. TAKE YOUR TWO BATTERIES IN SERIES AND CONNECT YOUR MOTOR ACROSS THEM AND MEASURE THE RPM. NOW RUN YOUR MOTOR ON JUST ONE OF THEM AND MEASURE THE RPM. THEN PUT THE SYSTEM BACK TOGETHER AND MEASURE THE RPM OF THE MOTOR RUNNING BETWEEN THE POSITIVES. WHAT IS ITS RPM NOW? IS IT RUNNING ON 24 WATTS OR 12 WATTS? A MOTOR RUNS ON WHATEVER GOES INTO IT. IT DOESN'T HAVE SOME MAGIC BYPASS CIRCUIT THAT ALLOW HALF THE WATTS TO GO ON THROUGH WITHOUT AFFECTING THE MOTOR AT ALL. THIS IS ALL STANDARD ELECTRICAL STUFF, NOT VOODOO MAGIC.
HERE IS THE SECOND WAY OF PROVING THIS AND IT IS WHAT MATT IS TALKING ABOUT. (I WATCH AND LISTEN MATT, AND I HAVE LEARNED A THING OR TWO FROM YOU) IF YOU HAVE A 12 VOLT BATTERY AND YOU WANT TO MEASURE THE VOLTAGE IN IT, YOU DO NOT TAKE THE TOP OFF AND MEASURE ACROSS FIVE OF THE 6 TWO VOLT SECTIONS INSIDE. YOU MEASURE ACROSS ALL OF THEM. THAT TELLS YOU THE VOLTAGE AVAILABLE IN THE SYSTEM. WHEN YOU PUT TWO 12 VOLT BATTERIES IN SERIES, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEM? BECAUSE THE TWO BATTERIES ARE CONNECTED IN THE MIDDLE. YOU MEASURE FROM THE POSITIVE OF ONE TO THE NEGATIVE OF THE OTHER. BECAUSE THEY ARE CONNECTED, THEY HAVE BECOME ESSENTIALLY ONE BATTERY. HOW WOULD YOU MEASURE THREE BATTERIES IN SERIES? THE SAME WAY, RIGHT? IT IS THE SAME WITH THE THREE BATTERIES THAT ARE IN SERIES HERE, EVEN IF ONE IS IN SERIES BACKWARDS. SO YOU WANT TO KNOW THE WATTS THE MOTOR IS RECEIVING? ??? ?? TAKE THE MOTOR OUT AND PUT YOUR METER BETWEEN THE TWO POSITIVES. CONNECT IT EITHER WAY. ONE WAY IT READS POSITIVE 12 AND THE OTHER WAY IT READS NEGATIVE 12. SO WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU IS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR??? IF YOU REPLACE THE METER WITH A MOTOR DO YOU THINK THAT NUMBER IS MAGICALLY GOING TO JUMP TO 24 ON ONE SIDE OF THE MOTOR BUT STAY AT 12 ON THE OTHER SIDE. I DON'T THINK SO TIM.
WE SAY 12 WATTS. YOU SAID 24 WATTS. WHO IS CORRECT?  WE DIDN'T DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THE NUMBERS THAT WERE SHOWING ON LUC'S METER, AND I SAID THAT AT THE TIME. WHAT WE DISAGREED WITH WAS WHAT LUC SAID THOSE NUMBERS WERE SHOWING AND THE WAY HE WAS MEASURING THE SYSTEM.[/font]
ONLY 12 WATTS IS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR. PERIOD. THAT IS WHY WE SAID THE MEASUREMENT IS WRONG AND THAT LUC DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO MEASURE THIS SYSTEM CORRECTLY.  AND IF WE ARE CORRECT, AND NOT LUC, THEN THE NUMBERS USED IN ALL THE CALCULATIONS BELOW ARE AUTOMATICALLY INCORRECT. THATS WHY I TOOK EXCEPTION TO ALL OF THE CALCULATIONS BELOW.
However, the motor has converted part of those 12 watts to mechanical power and at best 80% if it is available at the motor shaft which means we have about 9.6 watts in mechanical power at the motor shaft which we can recover back to electrical if we attach a generator to it and can recover at best 80% if it = 7.7 watts and add it to the charge battery which gives a potential total of 19.7 watts recovered from the 24 watts put into the system. HOW MANY WATTS WERE PUT INTO THE MOTOR????



NO MORE CAPS
Nobody on these forums has spent the time that Matt and I have spent with this system since I first brought it to this forum many moons ago. Matt has analyzed the batteries with a pretty expensive battery analyzer. I did the same at the university, but then settled for a much less expensive battery analyzer that I got from Harbor Freight. It measures the things I NEED to know to keep me from ruining any more batteries. We know what we are talking about. We have measured this thing upside down and sideways THOUSANDS of times. I hope my explanations here made sense. If not, you can continue to believe what you want to believe. It's your life. But until you UNDERSTAND what is going on, you will have a hard time applying these principles to other things, and that's where it really gets exciting.
 


Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #544 on: November 04, 2017, 06:21:36 AM »
The "Three Battery System" is actually quite simple.

Two batteries are series connected to deliver power
to a "load" motor which is series connected with the
third battery whose polarity is configured within the
loop such that it receives "charge" from the "load"
current.  Its polarity opposes the source pair polarity
within the series circuit loop.

The Load will have applied to it the Voltage Difference
between the Source Pair of Batteries and the Opposing
Battery No. 3.

The "load" is a device such as an electrical motor
which has been "optimized" to produce pulsations
as it draws load current from the source battery
series pair.  These pulsations are augmented by
brief inductive discharge pulses from the optimized
load motor as it rotates;  the pulses are beneficial
to battery No. 3 as it is being charged.

As the source battery pair discharges they provide
power to both the "load motor" and the "charging
third battery."  Once the source pair has discharged
sufficiently the weaker of the two is replaced by
swapping it with the "charged" third battery and
operation resumed.

Is there actually any "overunity" or any other kind of
"magic" going on with this circuit?  No.

Is energy that might otherwise be "wasted" being
recovered and applied to the "charging" battery
No. 3?  Yes.

There is also the well known (actually by design) ability
of the lead acid battery to increase its ampere hour
rating as it is cycled through several charge-discharge
operations.  Most lead acid batteries experience an
approximately 30% increase in capacity as they are used.
This is due to the composition of the plates "forming"
more active material with each discharge-charge cycle.
It has to do with how the plates are manufactured and
the "paste" which fills the plate grids not being fully
activated at the time of manufacture.

As the lead acid battery gains capacity during use it
may appear to the inexperienced that some mysterious
"overunity" has come into the picture.  In reality, it is a
completely "normal" event.

Solar Photo-Voltaic Panels have become quite inexpensive
and are truly devices which are capable of producing nearly
free "overunity" electrical energy.  Lead Acid Batteries are
still excellent storage devices to capture the Sun provided
electrical energy for use later when the Sun is out of view.

In the meantime is there any waste of time associated with
evaluating the Three Battery System?  Not at all!  As Luc is
demonstrating with his trials there is much to learn and
seeing how things work with our own eyes is an invaluable
learning experience.  Provided of course that we are able
to truly comprehend what is being seen.

Quote from: Dbowling
24 WATTS IS GOING INTO THE MOTOR AND IT IS CONSUMING 12. REALLY? I DON'T THINK SO, OR LUC WOULD NOT BE GETTING THE RESULTS HE IS GETTING. HARDLY ANYTHING IS CONSUMED BY THE MOTOR. THERE IS ONLY 12 WATTS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR. THE OTHER 12 WATTS+ THAT COMES OUT OF THE CHARGE BATTERIES IS NEUTRALIZED BY THE 12 WATTS+ COMING OUT OF BATTERY 3.

The thought that Battery No. 3 is "neutralizing"
12 watts by power coming out of it is certainly
an unorthodox view.  I'll leave it to others to
comment on.  I suspect that in time, Dbowling
will come to realize his error in thinking.

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #545 on: November 04, 2017, 06:32:48 AM »
SeaMonkey,
That is a perfect description of the basic system as shown by Luc, and even of the system with the pulse motor. All we EVER claimed out of that system was that you could get extended run times. I remember the names of all the people who said that wasn't possible, but refused to test it. They will get coal in their stockings instead of answers. But that is only the beginning of what we have learned about how to use this system. We haven't dumped everything out there because nobody would believe us when we said THIS much of it worked, so have had no reason to share the rest. We know how to SIGNIFICANTLY extend those run times. Whether or not something can be built that will run forever has yet to be determined. Forever isn't here yet and we are far from done. But when you understand how LOOOOOOOOOONG those run times can be, and realize you can use the motor to turn a generator, suddenly you have a system that runs on virtually NOTHING and produces power. That is the advantage of this circuit connected to Matt's modified motor.

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #546 on: November 04, 2017, 07:09:14 AM »
I suppose it should be mentioned that a
discharged lead acid battery does have an
almost magical ability to "bounce back."

The Lead Acid Battery is truly a marvelous
device.  Simple in structure but very complex
in its task of storing and then delivering electrical
energy by chemical reaction activity.  FarmHand
and I have had some interesting discussions
regarding the uniqueness of this over 100 year
old proven technology.

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #547 on: November 04, 2017, 03:04:20 PM »
author=Dbowling link=topic=4612.msg512697#msg512697 date=1509772546]

Brad,


Quote
24 WATTS IS GOING INTO THE MOTOR AND IT IS CONSUMING 12. REALLY? I DON'T THINK SO

Why do you find this hard to believe,when the motor is one part of a two part series load on the 24 volt battery(the two 12 volt batteries hooked in series).

If we take a 1 volt battery,and series connect 2x 1 ohm resistors,how much power dose each resistor dissipate?
Using your analogy,all the power must go !through! the first resistor--which it dose not.

Quote
HARDLY ANYTHING IS CONSUMED BY THE MOTOR.

The exact amount of power can be accurately calculated in this system.

First you have to understand that battery 3 is not series connected to batteries 1 and 2.
Battery 3 is 1 part of a two part load placed on batteries 1 and 2

To work out what is being consumed by the motor and battery 3 is very simple.
The current flowing through the system will remain a constant-same for all components.
So to measure the power consumed by the motor,we multiply the voltage drop across the motor,by the current flowing through the system--the same applies for battery 3.

Quote
THERE IS ONLY 12 WATTS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR. THE OTHER 12 WATTS+ THAT COMES OUT OF THE CHARGE BATTERIES IS NEUTRALIZED BY THE 12 WATTS+ COMING OUT OF BATTERY 3.

There is no power coming out of battery 3.
If the power was coming out of battery 3,then the battery would be drained-not charged.
As battery 3 is being charged,then it is consuming power to do so.

Quote
CAN THIS BE PROVEN? SURE!!! TWO DIFFERENT WAYS. TAKE YOUR TWO BATTERIES IN SERIES AND CONNECT YOUR MOTOR ACROSS THEM AND MEASURE THE RPM. NOW RUN YOUR MOTOR ON JUST ONE OF THEM AND MEASURE THE RPM. THEN PUT THE SYSTEM BACK TOGETHER AND MEASURE THE RPM OF THE MOTOR RUNNING BETWEEN THE POSITIVES. WHAT IS ITS RPM NOW? IS IT RUNNING ON 24 WATTS OR 12 WATTS?

The motor is running on 12 watts

Quote
  A MOTOR RUNS ON WHATEVER GOES INTO IT. IT DOESN'T HAVE SOME MAGIC BYPASS CIRCUIT THAT ALLOW HALF THE WATTS TO GO ON THROUGH WITHOUT AFFECTING THE MOTOR AT ALL. THIS IS ALL STANDARD ELECTRICAL STUFF, NOT VOODOO MAGIC.

And this is why i believe you and Matt need assistance with power calculation.
This is standard stuff,and you have it wrong.
As i stated before,the motor is 1 part of a two part !series! connected load.
If the motor was hooked to the source(the two batteries)in parallel,then yes,it would consume all of what is going into it. But it is not a parallel connection-->it is 1/2 of a series connected load.
So,as i said,the motors consumption is calculated by the value of the voltage drop across it X's the current flowing through it--standard electrical engineering.

Quote
HERE IS THE SECOND WAY OF PROVING THIS AND IT IS WHAT MATT IS TALKING ABOUT. (I WATCH AND LISTEN MATT, AND I HAVE LEARNED A THING OR TWO FROM YOU) IF YOU HAVE A 12 VOLT BATTERY AND YOU WANT TO MEASURE THE VOLTAGE IN IT, YOU DO NOT TAKE THE TOP OFF AND MEASURE ACROSS FIVE OF THE 6 TWO VOLT SECTIONS INSIDE. YOU MEASURE ACROSS ALL OF THEM. THAT TELLS YOU THE VOLTAGE AVAILABLE IN THE SYSTEM. WHEN YOU PUT TWO 12 VOLT BATTERIES IN SERIES, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEM? BECAUSE THE TWO BATTERIES ARE CONNECTED IN THE MIDDLE. YOU MEASURE FROM THE POSITIVE OF ONE TO THE NEGATIVE OF THE OTHER. BECAUSE THEY ARE CONNECTED, THEY HAVE BECOME ESSENTIALLY ONE BATTERY. HOW WOULD YOU MEASURE THREE BATTERIES IN SERIES?

And this is where you are making your mistake.
Battery 3 is not hooked in series with batteries 1&2.
Battery 3 is hooked in parallel with batteries 1&2,with a second series connected load between the negatives.
You can measure the voltage drop across each battery individually by placing a voltage measuring  device across the two posts of the battery.

Quote
THE SAME WAY, RIGHT? IT IS THE SAME WITH THE THREE BATTERIES THAT ARE IN SERIES HERE, EVEN IF ONE IS IN SERIES BACKWARDS.

There is no such thing as a series connection backwards.

 
Quote
SO YOU WANT TO KNOW THE WATTS THE MOTOR IS RECEIVING? ??? ?? TAKE THE MOTOR OUT AND PUT YOUR METER BETWEEN THE TWO POSITIVES. CONNECT IT EITHER WAY. ONE WAY IT READS POSITIVE 12 AND THE OTHER WAY IT READS NEGATIVE 12. SO WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU IS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR??? IF YOU REPLACE THE METER WITH A MOTOR DO YOU THINK THAT NUMBER IS MAGICALLY GOING TO JUMP TO 24 ON ONE SIDE OF THE MOTOR BUT STAY AT 12 ON THE OTHER SIDE. I DON'T THINK SO TIM.

No,there will be a 12 volt drop across the motor.

Quote
WE SAY 12 WATTS. YOU SAID 24 WATTS. WHO IS CORRECT?

No,i said the supply batteries(1&2) were delivering 11.2 watts to the system,and said that the motor was consuming 5.6 watts--which is correct.
Please go back and read my post again.

 
Quote
WE DIDN'T DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THE NUMBERS THAT WERE SHOWING ON LUC'S METER, AND I SAID THAT AT THE TIME. WHAT WE DISAGREED WITH WAS WHAT LUC SAID THOSE NUMBERS WERE SHOWING AND THE WAY HE WAS MEASURING THE SYSTEM.[/font]

What Luc said those numbers were showing,is correct.

Quote
ONLY 12 WATTS IS AVAILABLE TO THE MOTOR. PERIOD.

If we are still referring to Lucs first video,then only 5.6 watts was being consumed by the motor,as battery 3 was consuming the other 5.6 watts.

To say only 12 watts is available to the motor is also incorrect,as what is available to the motor is what batteries 1&2 can deliver,minus what battery 3 will consume when the motor is placed under load.

Quote
THAT IS WHY WE SAID THE MEASUREMENT IS WRONG AND THAT LUC DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO MEASURE THIS SYSTEM CORRECTLY.  AND IF WE ARE CORRECT, AND NOT LUC, THEN THE NUMBERS USED IN ALL THE CALCULATIONS BELOW ARE AUTOMATICALLY INCORRECT. THATS WHY I TOOK EXCEPTION TO ALL OF THE CALCULATIONS BELOW.

Luc's numbers and measurements were correct on his video.

If battery 1 & 2 are connected in series and are 12 volts each = 24 volts and the current is measured at 1 amp = 24 watts entering the motor and if battery 3 is at 12 volts and the current entering it is measured at 1 amp = 12 watts entering battery 3.[/font]

From these numbers we can conclude that the motor is consuming 12 watts,and battery 3 also 12 watts.

Quote
However, the motor has converted part of those 12 watts to mechanical power and at best 80% if it is available at the motor shaft which means we have about 9.6 watts in mechanical power at the motor shaft which we can recover back to electrical if we attach a generator to it and can recover at best 80% if it = 7.7 watts and add it to the charge battery which gives a potential total of 19.7 watts recovered from the 24 watts put into the system. HOW MANY WATTS WERE PUT INTO THE MOTOR????

This is incorrect.
The motor is consuming 12 watts unloaded.
As soon as a load(E.G-generator) is placed on the motor,the motor will draw more current,and thus more power.
The charge battery will also receive the same current flow increase,and thus charge faster when a load is placed on the motor.
Luc also showed this in his first video.

Quote
So if we have 24 watts coming out from input batteries and 12 watts going in the charge battery it means half of the input power is being used by the motor and potentially half recovered by the charge battery.

This statement is correct.

Quote
I hope my explanations here made sense.

I could understand what you are saying,but you are incorrect.

Quote
You guys have to realize you are dealing with something a little different here and standard measurement methods can be deceiving.

There is nothing about this system that is a little different,or in any way -hard to take accurate power measurements from.

Quote
We know what we are talking about.

After reading all your claims in this post,and others--it is clear that you and Matt do not know how to measure or make power correct calculations--and this is where the problem lies.

Quote
But until you UNDERSTAND what is going on, you will have a hard time applying these principles to other things, and that's where it really gets exciting.

I do understand very well what is going on,and have no problem at all with taking accurate power calculations from this simple device.

You are in the same boat UFOpolotics was in some years back,where he two screamed OU galore.

After spending around $180.00 on part's,i had to show him how to do a prony brake test correctly.
Once again,it was a case of some one not knowing how to take correct power measurements of there own machine-as is clearly the case here.

Quote
If not, you can continue to believe what you want to believe.

I will continue to make !correct! power measurements.

Dave
I know you may not like what i have said,but it is correct,and you will not find an EE here that will say i am wrong.

You just cant go making up your own type of power measurements to suit your need--to make your DUT work as you claim.

As far as Luc's test showing or exceeding the watt hour rating of the batteries--do not make the mistake that thinking this is something special =-as it is nothing out of the ordinary.

The watt hour rating of a battery is a safety margin ratting only,and the battery could very well put out double the watt hour ratting ,when subject to a deep discharge rate.
It will also kill your batteries much faster.

Battery voltage also has nothing at all to do with the health of the battery,or it's state of charge.


As i said,i still have all my gear i bought for this DUT,and will be happy to shoot a video showing the correct power measurements for each component in the DUT.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #548 on: November 04, 2017, 04:11:55 PM »
 author=SeaMonkey link=topic=4612.msg512698#msg512698 date=1509772896]
The "Three Battery System" is actually quite simple.



Quote
The Load will have applied to it the Voltage Difference
between the Source Pair of Batteries and the Opposing
Battery No. 3.

Correct

Quote
The "load" is a device such as an electrical motor
which has been "optimized" to produce pulsations
as it draws load current from the source battery
series pair.  These pulsations are augmented by
brief inductive discharge pulses from the optimized
load motor as it rotates;  the pulses are beneficial
to battery No. 3 as it is being charged.

Correct

Quote
As the source battery pair discharges they provide
power to both the "load motor" and the "charging
third battery."  Once the source pair has discharged
sufficiently the weaker of the two is replaced by
swapping it with the "charged" third battery and
operation resumed.

As i did in my tests.

Quote
Is there actually any "overunity" or any other kind of
"magic" going on with this circuit?  No.

Correct

Quote
Is energy that might otherwise be "wasted" being
recovered and applied to the "charging" battery
No. 3?  Yes.

Energy would be wasted where,if battery 3 was removed?.

Quote
There is also the well known (actually by design) ability
of the lead acid battery to increase its ampere hour
rating as it is cycled through several charge-discharge
operations.  Most lead acid batteries experience an
approximately 30% increase in capacity as they are used.
This is due to the composition of the plates "forming"
more active material with each discharge-charge cycle.
It has to do with how the plates are manufactured and
the "paste" which fills the plate grids not being fully
activated at the time of manufacture.

Yes,but in order for there to be extra energy stored in the battery,
You do actually have to supply that energy--it dosnt just appear out of no where.


Quote
In the meantime is there any waste of time associated with
evaluating the Three Battery System?  Not at all!  As Luc is
demonstrating with his trials there is much to learn and
seeing how things work with our own eyes is an invaluable
learning experience.  Provided of course that we are able
to truly comprehend what is being seen
.

Apparently most are lost,and do not fully understand batteries,or how/what there watt hour ratting means.

Quote
The thought that Battery No. 3 is "neutralizing"
12 watts by power coming out of it is certainly
an unorthodox view.  I'll leave it to others to
comment on.  I suspect that in time, Dbowling
will come to realize his error in thinking
.

One would hope so.



Brad

Offline minnie

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #549 on: November 04, 2017, 04:20:03 PM »



   Ever heard of "Flogging a dead horse?"  David Bowling.
   Move on with your life,
              John.

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #550 on: November 04, 2017, 04:26:41 PM »
SeaMonkey,
 I remember the names of all the people who said that wasn't possible, but refused to test it. They will get coal in their stockings instead of answers. But that is only the beginning of what we have learned about how to use this system. We haven't dumped everything out there because nobody would believe us when we said THIS much of it worked, so have had no reason to share the rest. We know how to SIGNIFICANTLY extend those run times. Whether or not something can be built that will run forever has yet to be determined. Forever isn't here yet and we are far from done. But when you understand how LOOOOOOOOOONG those run times can be, and realize you can use the motor to turn a generator, suddenly you have a system that runs on virtually NOTHING and produces power. That is the advantage of this circuit connected to Matt's modified motor.

Quote
That is a perfect description of the basic system as shown by Luc, and even of the system with the pulse motor. All we EVER claimed out of that system was that you could get extended run times.

This is the one claim i am interested in
Quote post 141 in this thread-->If you read my description of my first experiment again, you will see that when I first flipped the switch, NOTHING happened. The motor did not run. I sat around for 15 or 20 minutes talking to a friend, and suddenly the motor started. It ran until all three batteries were fully charged, and then it SHUT ITSELF OFF.

This is the original setup-correct Dave?
This is the one i would like to get up and running--runs until all 3 batteries are fully charged.

As the circuit was very simple,and provided by your self Dave--how and why exactly did the motor shut it self off,once the batteries were fully charged?,as there would have been a 12 volt potential across the motor,if we assume that each battery voltage value is 12 volts.


Brad

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #551 on: November 04, 2017, 05:27:18 PM »
Brad,
Here is exactly what happened.
When we first threw the switch, nothing happened. Ten to fifteen minutes later the motor suddenly started up. The voltage on the bad battery would jump to 24 volts. It would go down to about 18 volts, and then the motor would slowly start and begin to run, speeding up gradually. The voltage would continue to drop down to around nine volts, at which time the motor would suddenly shut off and the voltage would immediately jump back to 24 volts and the cycle would repeat. [/size]To try and get the system to keep from shutting off, I ASSUMED I needed to keep the battery in the third position from becoming charged, so I began to hook loads to it. I used an inverter and powered all kinds of loads, balancing the load on battery three by putting an additional LOAD ON THE MOTOR. It did amazing things. Then it quit, or I killed it somehow by taking it apart.


My assumption was that it shut off because battery 3 was charging, but once the system shut off, battery 3 (the bad battery we tried to charge before we started, which WOULD charge up, but wouldn't hold it) wouldn't hold charge. SO when the charge dropped, the system started up again. OVER AND OVER for an entire day before we started putting loads on battery 3/


Have seen this same thing happen with other batteries in the third position for a short time until the battery "repaired" itself, and then quit. But can't get that effect to last or figure out WHY. SO have given up on that.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:47:54 PM by Dbowling »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #552 on: November 04, 2017, 07:25:57 PM »
...

The exact amount of power can be accurately calculated in this system.

...
Brad

Well said, Brad ! (And I hope your post doesn't disappear this time....    ;)    )

Offline ramset

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #553 on: November 04, 2017, 07:40:07 PM »
Good to read Farmhand is still about.[even better to See Minnie around ]

To those not building here who are just watching and  concerned?
please don't be.
its not your time its not your money ..[obviously not talking to Brad the builder here] .if you don't like what you see
change the channel.

there is absolutely NOTHING that will stop these investigations .

Luc received Carroll's hand wound Matt motor today and Slyder will be running thru the Arduino code and circuits so-as to automate and data log all the important data ..[everything will be shared at the forums when the vetting is done.

the real tests are about to begin...
and Luc is having a good time .

also a side note, Duncan is traveling next week but when he gets back ,he is going to see if he can repeat his battery Frost event for the camera.

all good stuff IMO

Chet

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #554 on: November 05, 2017, 03:46:49 AM »
Brad,
Here is exactly what happened.
When we first threw the switch, nothing happened. Ten to fifteen minutes later the motor suddenly started up. The voltage on the bad battery would jump to 24 volts. It would go down to about 18 volts, and then the motor would slowly start and begin to run, speeding up gradually. The voltage would continue to drop down to around nine volts, at which time the motor would suddenly shut off and the voltage would immediately jump back to 24 volts and the cycle would repeat. [/size]To try and get the system to keep from shutting off, I ASSUMED I needed to keep the battery in the third position from becoming charged, so I began to hook loads to it. I used an inverter and powered all kinds of loads, balancing the load on battery three by putting an additional LOAD ON THE MOTOR. It did amazing things. Then it quit, or I killed it somehow by taking it apart.


My assumption was that it shut off because battery 3 was charging, but once the system shut off, battery 3 (the bad battery we tried to charge before we started, which WOULD charge up, but wouldn't hold it) wouldn't hold charge. SO when the charge dropped, the system started up again. OVER AND OVER for an entire day before we started putting loads on battery 3/


Have seen this same thing happen with other batteries in the third position for a short time until the battery "repaired" itself, and then quit. But can't get that effect to last or figure out WHY. SO have given up on that.

Ah,ok.

Well there are a few things that can cause this effect.

As your battery kept suddenly falling back to a non charged state,i would think that the battery had a bad/broken cell.
When it started taking a charge,lead oxide could have bridged the gap in the broken cell for a short period. Once the battery started taking a charge,the internal resistance of the battery would have started to drop,and at a certain value,the motor would have started to run.
As the charge state of the battery increased,the internal resistance of the battery decreased,and the motor would speed up.
At one point,the current flow through the battery would have gotten to a point where it simply burnt the lead oxide bridge between the broken cell's--like a fuse going pop when too much current is sent through it.
Once the bridge is broken,the motor would have stopped,and the battery would once again appear to be totally discharged.

Once the fluid in the battery settled,the lead oxide would once again form a bridge across the broken cell,and the process would start all over again.

The reason this would work with very few batteries,is because it would be like a 1 in 100 chance of finding a battery with a broken cell,where the break was such that the lead oxide could bridge it in such a way.

If you have such a battery,that wont take a charge,raise it a foot or so above solid ground,and drop it on the ground.
Once again,put your battery charger on it,and see if it takes a charge.

This is just a simple test to see if you do have a broken cell.


Brad