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Author Topic: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device  (Read 272093 times)

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #405 on: June 08, 2016, 01:20:37 AM »
Quote from: NelsonRochaa
the best solution to see how efficient is the circuit you run actually , is you replace the batteries by supercaps modules of 12,5v previous charged and make exactly the same test that you made , in that way the the "excuse"  about the battery "limitations" in measures will dissipate and you will able to measure with more precision the values  . Is only a ideia to help you have more clearly data , in that way no one will use the argument about  batteries  " mysterious and with almost magical properties".

As a procedure to narrow down the anomalous
"extended run time" this is actually not a bad
idea.

Is it the properties of the Lead Acid Battery which
produce the effect;  or is it something unique to
the circuit?

An excellent example of "scientific thinking" to
help clarify what seems to be a phenomenon.

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #406 on: June 08, 2016, 01:34:24 AM »
 author=Dbowling link=topic=4612.msg485950#msg485950 date=1465322661]
 



Quote
PS. I KNOW Tinman knows that it is "specific gravity." I have read a lot of his stuff and he's a pretty sharp guy. I just couldn't help myself. LOL


Yes,i did mean specific gravity test.
As you will see,spelling is not my strong point,due to the fact that i am not here to win any spelling bee's. But as you can see,most know what im saying,and that is what is important.

I do ask that you please believe me when i say i am far from having a closed mind.
In fact,i have been,and probably still am,in your position,in that i also have a system which involves an electric motor of sort's,that shows some !odd! P/in P/out measurements which are yet to be solved. So you see,i am much in the same boat as you,but where as i have decided that it's just more trouble than it's worth.
But who know's?,maybe i will !add! it to your setup,and see what happens ;)
I will be buying the needed equipment today,in way of an inverter and 3 new lead acid batteries--damm,there go's another 300. ::)


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #407 on: June 08, 2016, 11:19:24 AM »
OK,so i have purchased the 3 new batteries and new 500 watt inverter to begin the first series of test with the inverter as the load.
Two batteries in series,and one in parallel,with the inverter in series with the two series batteries,to the parallel battery.The inverter will be run on the potential difference-see schematic below.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #408 on: June 08, 2016, 02:09:08 PM »
Here is the first video of the series to come.
This one is just a breakdown of what is to come,regarding various tests on this three battery setup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWxNk5z8UGo


Brad

Offline pomodoro

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #409 on: June 08, 2016, 02:47:14 PM »
Crikey mate, those few hundred bucks you spent could have brought you a few cartons.

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #410 on: June 08, 2016, 02:57:29 PM »
Crikey mate, those few hundred bucks you spent could have brought you a few cartons.

Lol-i dont drink.Was $345 in total,but i was buying a small inverter anyway for camping,and batteries always come in handy.
I will actually need a few batteries that size in the future,as i will be building an electric cart with one of those smart drive motors soon enough.


Brad

Offline pomodoro

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #411 on: June 08, 2016, 03:45:00 PM »
Good to know you have use for them. I thought for a moment you spent all that money to prove it doesn't work! 

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #412 on: June 08, 2016, 03:54:31 PM »
Good to know you have use for them. I thought for a moment you spent all that money to prove it doesn't work!

Well i was not going to purchase the items just yet,but this seemed like a good reason to buy the equipment now lol.

Lets see where it go's before we make any claim's,although i think most of us know what the outcome will be,as i have been down this road before,many years ago.
But David has an extra in there,by way of the boost converter--hopefully David will post the best model he has,in the way of the boost converter.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #413 on: June 08, 2016, 04:47:45 PM »
Thought i would throw this into the mix while i was at it.
This is the setup where you have the two 12 volt batteries in series(24 volt battery),from the positive of the 24 volt battery,through the positive of a dead 12 volt battery,through a DC motor,then to the negative of the 24 volt battery. The motor will not rotate to start with,and as the dead battery begins to take charge,the internal resistance drops,and more current flows through the circuit. This allows the motor to start turning--this is normal.
But this time,i decided to use an AGM battery(absorbent glass mat),and to my surprise ,we had sharp current spikes shooting through the circuit. I am not sure what is happening inside this AGM battery,but i have not seen this happen with flooded lead acid batteries.

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7N6SxsLVRA


Brad

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #414 on: June 08, 2016, 05:33:34 PM »
Brad,
Your schematic is the one I started with 8 years ago. You are not going to be able to keep the inverter running because as the voltage on the two primaries drops and the voltage on battery 3 rises, the voltage potential decreases and the inverter shuts off. Also, you are going to damage battery three because you are hitting it with voltage that is too low for a proper charge. I talked about this, and about the fact that I have a pile of DEAD batteries from running the setup this way over the last 8 years.


Since I came back on this forum to talk about my experiments after a LONG absence I have made SIX posts. In FOUR of the six I speak of the NEED for a DC to DC converter to maintain the charge level at a voltage higher than what is in battery three in order to properly charge it and to properly run the inverter.
     post # 384
post #394
post #392
show it in a video in post 392
post # 397
 


But it isn't in the schematic you posted. Nor do I see it in the video. So please don't assume you are testing the system I am working with when you are running your tests, because you are not. And I use FIVE batteries, not three. Charging or discharging batteries causes ions to move in a specific direction. To reverse the flow of those ions, as in moving batteries from a position where they are charging to a position where they are discharging uses up energy to reverse the ion flow. So I let batteries REST before switching their positions.


I will show a single battery moving through this rotation to explain it.  It begins as battery one of the two batteries in series. Battery one and two are discharging so a battery can move from position one to position two with no problem. Then it needs to move into a rest position. Then it moves into the battery three position where it charges. Then it moves into a rest position. Then it is ready to begin the cycle all over.


With only three batteries, you have no way of keeping the system going. You will charge battery three as you run the inverter for a little while, but once battery three is charged,  you are done. I'm not sure how, with such a short term LIMITED test you will have the data necessary to determine whether I am correct or incorrect in my claims. Bt at least you are testing. That's more than most folks do, and I sincerely appreciate that.


I should also mention that if you do not measure the continuity between the two negatives on your inverter (there shouldn't BE any, but some inverters show continuity there) you will damage the batteries) You SHOULD be using a pure sign wave inverter.


As to the wonky behavior of your AGM battery. My first experience, which I related here years ago, was with three 12 volt AGM batteries. One battery would take a charge, but would not hold it, so I put it in the third position, much as you did with your wonky battery.  When I connected the system up, the voltage across battery 3 was over 24 volts, and the motor would not run. When the voltage across battery three dropped down to 18 volts, the motor would begin to run, and the voltage across battery three would continue to go down. Now with EVERY OTHER SETUP I HAVE RUN SINCE, the voltage will go down to around 14 volts and stabilize, but with this FIRST setup, the voltage would go ALL the way down to around 8 volts, and the motor would shut off. The voltage across battery 3 would immediately jump back to over 24 volt, and the cycle would repeat over and over and over. I decided that if I could keep battery three from charging, it would prevent the system from shutting down, so I hooked an inverter to battery 3 and ran loads off the inverter. I ran loads 24 hours a day for over four weeks, and the system never ran down. Then I took it on a plane to California (to show it to a patent attorney) and it never worked again. Since that day I have been searching for a way to replicate that system, so do not discount the value of a wonky battery. It may be a treasure.

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #415 on: June 09, 2016, 01:34:14 AM »
Brad,
Your schematic is the one I started with 8 years ago. You are not going to be able to keep the inverter running because as the voltage on the two primaries drops and the voltage on battery 3 rises, the voltage potential decreases and the inverter shuts off. Also, you are going to damage battery three because you are hitting it with voltage that is too low for a proper charge. I talked about this, and about the fact that I have a pile of DEAD batteries from running the setup this way over the last 8 years.


Since I came back on this forum to talk about my experiments after a LONG absence I have made SIX posts. In FOUR of the six I speak of the NEED for a DC to DC converter to maintain the charge level at a voltage higher than what is in battery three in order to properly charge it and to properly run the inverter.
     post # 384
post #394
post #392
show it in a video in post 392
post # 397
 


But it isn't in the schematic you posted. Nor do I see it in the video. So please don't assume you are testing the system I am working with when you are running your tests, because you are not. And I use FIVE batteries, not three. Charging or discharging batteries causes ions to move in a specific direction. To reverse the flow of those ions, as in moving batteries from a position where they are charging to a position where they are discharging uses up energy to reverse the ion flow. So I let batteries REST before switching their positions.


I will show a single battery moving through this rotation to explain it.  It begins as battery one of the two batteries in series. Battery one and two are discharging so a battery can move from position one to position two with no problem. Then it needs to move into a rest position. Then it moves into the battery three position where it charges. Then it moves into a rest position. Then it is ready to begin the cycle all over.


With only three batteries, you have no way of keeping the system going. You will charge battery three as you run the inverter for a little while, but once battery three is charged,  you are done. I'm not sure how, with such a short term LIMITED test you will have the data necessary to determine whether I am correct or incorrect in my claims. Bt at least you are testing. That's more than most folks do, and I sincerely appreciate that.


I should also mention that if you do not measure the continuity between the two negatives on your inverter (there shouldn't BE any, but some inverters show continuity there) you will damage the batteries) You SHOULD be using a pure sign wave inverter.


As to the wonky behavior of your AGM battery. My first experience, which I related here years ago, was with three 12 volt AGM batteries. One battery would take a charge, but would not hold it, so I put it in the third position, much as you did with your wonky battery.  When I connected the system up, the voltage across battery 3 was over 24 volts, and the motor would not run. When the voltage across battery three dropped down to 18 volts, the motor would begin to run, and the voltage across battery three would continue to go down. Now with EVERY OTHER SETUP I HAVE RUN SINCE, the voltage will go down to around 14 volts and stabilize, but with this FIRST setup, the voltage would go ALL the way down to around 8 volts, and the motor would shut off. The voltage across battery 3 would immediately jump back to over 24 volt, and the cycle would repeat over and over and over. I decided that if I could keep battery three from charging, it would prevent the system from shutting down, so I hooked an inverter to battery 3 and ran loads off the inverter. I ran loads 24 hours a day for over four weeks, and the system never ran down. Then I took it on a plane to California (to show it to a patent attorney) and it never worked again. Since that day I have been searching for a way to replicate that system, so do not discount the value of a wonky battery. It may be a treasure.

Hi David
To quote your post 390

Quote
Am I correct that this is your question? If so, the answer is "No". When you run the energy through the inverter and into battery three, the same energy gets used twice. Yes, there are losses in the wire from heat (friction) but essentially you get the same amount of energy in battery 3 that "left" the two primaries in series, and you ran the load for free.

This is what i will be looking at first--this !running! the load for free.
You need to understand that i am quite well versed in this type of experimenting,and will be able to provide accurate P/in and P/out,with an accountability of all dissipated and consumed power.

As far as the inverter go's,it is very close to being a pure sine anyway,and would not impact on the results what so ever. The newer modified sine wave inverters are fairly clean,but if needed,i can clean the wave form up quite easily,as we are using resistive loads on the inverter.
I also see on the other forum!!buy now-get nothing later!!,that most of the guys are using modified sine wave inverters anyway,and they seem to get the results you speak of,so lets wait and see what happens.

Maintaining a fixed voltage on battery 3 is also not a problem,so no need to worry about battery 3 rising to high. I will also be keeping well below the C20 rate of the batteries,so no damage will take place within the batteries.

But first,lets see if the load is really been run for free as you state.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #416 on: June 09, 2016, 02:18:59 AM »
@ David

Below is a scope shot across a CVR,showing the input current wave form to the inverter.
As you can see,it is the same as a pure sine wave inverters input wave form.
These are the spikes those on the other forum are speaking of on the input,that is one of the reasons that this setup works as claimed-!i believe!?.
As the batteries will only see the input side of the inverter,and not the output side of the inverter,i am at a loss as to why it has to be a pure sine wave inverter?,as battery regulation has nothing to do with the output of the inverter.

If you are not happy with the wave form across the input side of the inverter,i can clean that up to be a pure DC current,without the spike seen in the scope shot-->but i believe that these spikes are part of the !claimed! effect. All the spikes below the 0 volt line,is energy being returned to the supply battery,and if i clean up those spikes,there will be no energy returned back to the supply battery,but at the same time,the peak input current draw value will also drop.

So if you could post a scope shot of the current wave form on the input side of your inverter,we will know how i need to shape the wave form on mine,so as it matches yours,and we will then be working with the very same wave form the supply and receiving batteries are seeing.


Brad
Perhaps you could throw your scope across a CVR,and show us the wave form on the input side of your inverter?.

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #417 on: June 09, 2016, 02:49:34 AM »
That's the wave form you are looking for. I had some problems with inverters that had continuity between the low voltage and high voltage negative, and neither one was a pure sign wave inverter, so I relegated non-pure sign wave inverters to my "do not use" list. But it is the wave form that is necessary, and you have that.

Offline tinman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #418 on: June 09, 2016, 05:23:57 AM »
That's the wave form you are looking for. I had some problems with inverters that had continuity between the low voltage and high voltage negative, and neither one was a pure sign wave inverter, so I relegated non-pure sign wave inverters to my "do not use" list. But it is the wave form that is necessary, and you have that.

Ok,so where off to the right start.

I am uploading a video now--will take a while,and will post it here when done.

As expected,battery 3(the charge battery) rose in voltage quite fast,and the potential difference dropped of quickly. this caused the low voltage alarm to come on in the inverter. But regardless of that,i was able to obtain some !ball park! power measurements. I then ran a quick test on the inverters efficiency in standard mode,where i use just one 12 volt battery to run the inverter,and did an efficiency calculation of the inverter.

Oddly enough,the efficiency of the system is some 15% !odd! higher with the 3 battery system,than it  is running the inverter off one battery alone :o. I must admit,i was not expecting this at all,and this has come as some what of a shock to me.

The test in the video was very quick and dirty,and with the low voltage alarm going off,well there could have been an error somewhere?. But i dont believe that to be the case,as the efficiency gap is too large for such an error to exist,so unless i screwed something up badly,then they are what they are.

I am in the process of building a much more stable system,where i can maintain a set voltage across the inverter. I have also carried out accurate inverter efficiency tests,and have an accurate efficiency value for the inverter--which is still way below what it was in the 3 battery system--but i dont know why yet.

I will post the video as soon as it is uploaded.


Brad

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #419 on: June 09, 2016, 07:42:08 AM »
TinMan,
Thanks for taking a look at this. You are probably one of the only skeptics who has actually taken the time to actually build this and test it, and I appreciate that. As I said on the other thread, every single component we are using is designed to do something specific to create a working system. I know you are only testing the basic setup now, so I am looking forward to seeing your results when all the pieces are put together. And I DO realize that your current test does not support my claim that "hardly any energy gets used as it moves through the inverter" but I still believe you are in for more surprises when you get the system to run as a stable system by adding the boost module to the mix, and see what happens when you rotate and rest batteries.


I have found that as I rotate the batteries through the system over the long haul, my results get better and better as the batteries expand their capacity, begin to charge faster, and hold charge longer. But if you continue to be interested in this long enough to do the long term testing I have done, I believe you will see everything I have seen. I hope so.