Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Google Search

Custom Search

Author Topic: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device  (Read 272108 times)

Offline SeaMonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1292
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #315 on: August 01, 2013, 09:41:34 AM »
That is a reasonable and good plan Dave.
Steps 1 (!) and 5 are especially important.

Hopefully, the results of your test will
provide some concrete evidence or clues
about what may be taking place.

Offline Hoppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4324
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #316 on: August 01, 2013, 11:00:29 AM »
OK Guys, here is the test I am going to run. If this is not adequate, speak now or forever hold your peace because I am not going to spend all my time jumping through hoops for people who won't even take the time to build this and see for themselves.


!. Measure the specific gravity of every cell in every battery in the setup
2. Measure the voltages on all the batteries with my scope
3. Measure the output of the inverter through a kilowatt meter to a known load (from 17-30 watts depending on what I need to balance my motor running my generator)
4. Measure the output of the generator through a full wave bridge and a voltage regulator to some 12 volt lights in terms of amps and voltage produced over time
5. Measure the specific gravity of all cells in all batteries at the end of the run and the voltages of all batteries as well.


It is my contention that 3 and 4 above are all gravy as long as the specific gravity in the primaries has remained level or increased and the specific gravity in all other batteries has remained level or increased. Does that about do it? Please let me know before I start this. Probably won't start until tomorrow morning as I have a couple things till to do before I am ready to run. And I will only be doing a 10 hour run as my wife objects to the noise of the motor running right under us.
Next week, however, I plan on moving this setup out to my pool room, which is a converted garage separate from the house, and letting it run for a few days just to see what happens. UPDATE: Will probably be a little later than that, since I didn't get everything done I needed to do today. Could not find my tap and die set, which necessitated a run to the auto parts store I had not anticipated and I lost hours I needed. But if all goes well in the morning I ail still fire it up SOMETIME tomorrow. If not, then Friday. I will be pout of town for a four day weekend, so I am really shooting for tomorrow sometime.


Dave

David,

No need to rush this. You need to decide on how to set this up for the 3BGS and how you will interpret the results.  There are many variables, so it is difficult to set up a control group to compare results against and to be honest after much thought, I don't think that there is a practical way of showing beyond any reasonable doubt that the 3BGS does or does not gain 'free' energy from an external source. However, by carefully recording start and finish of the three battery SG levels, it should be possible to determine how much capacity has been lost from the 'good' batteries and gained by the 'bad' battery over the course of a test run. If the test is repeated with the 'good' batteries in various states of charge, it should also be possible to get a better picture of system performance over a realistic portion of their discharge curves. More importantly, it should give a better idea as to whether this system has any practical application, given the control measures that are currently needed to be carried out manually to 'balance' the system. In an ideal situation, if excess energy were entering the system big time, then the system SG losses and gains should I think at least balance.

Offline Farmhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #317 on: August 01, 2013, 02:37:25 PM »
Good points raised Farmhand. Yes, many so called 'dead' batteries that end up scrapped have become badly sulfated (stratified) due to not being fully charged after each cycle of use but can still hold a considerable charge. These will eventually spring to life (some a lot quicker than others) when the internal resistance has fallen enough to supply sufficient current to the series connected motor and start it turning. As David has found out, when this happens, they start to take a charge, which results in the the two 'good' batteries draining down over time. With a heavy enough load across the 'bad' battery, the 'good' batteries can sometimes be seen to rise in potential for a period of time. This is whilst their internal resistance is adjusting to the load. It is during this period (which can be lengthy) when load balancing can prolong this effect and really heavy loads like inverters can be hooked-up, without the terminal voltage of the 'good batteries' appearing to drop! However, SG readings before and after these heavy loaded runs will reveal that the 'good' batteries have lost charge proportional to the load applied. I hope that David will see this effect for what it really is - a battery vagary - when he starts to take proper measurements under a realistic test procedure.

Yes Hoppy, In the Tesla Switch thread at EF I posted a number of somewhat complicated "Tesla Switch" type arrangements, mostly involving the use of transformers or inverters employing a "switch Back" type of "Dual Entwined, Two-four phase"  kind of principal, like two - three battery "switch setups" but out of phase using only four batteries.  ;D. I ought to be able to post a pic of one of those and someone might like to use some part of the idea, and anyone is welcome to. It's open.  :)

It is an interesting area to experiment in and I do wish Dave and the guys well with their research. I also respect that Dave is 100% genuine.

Cheers

P.S. I do apologize for not producing drawings as yet, a recent rearrangement of files is making finding some things difficult.


Offline Farmhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #318 on: August 01, 2013, 03:46:06 PM »
Below is some diagrams I made, the colored arrows (triangles) after a diode is a flyback output and a colored arrow facing a wire is the corresponding input. Dashed lines represent power currents, the colored sections of the torus represent the primary coils, and the setup would have a secondary constituting a transformer or inverter. It could be however many phases. I've a few drawing but I'll just post the one and the sketch.  :)

The sketch is of how a motor could be run from caps in a similar way to the video contraption I posted.   :-[ Disregarding the silly way I drew the motor itself, the power part and potential difference is the point to it.  ;)

And for good measure a Brandt Switch drawing.




Offline Dbowling

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #319 on: August 01, 2013, 04:01:00 PM »
Hoppy,
There is definitely a way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this thing puts out way more energy than is contained in the primary batteries. Just start it up and let it continue to run. The motor pulls just over two amps and may pull more with coils on the generator. I'll find that out today. At some point, if the thing runs for days, people are going to have to admit that the power to keep that motor running is coming from somewhere other than the batteries. Especially when I will be running somewhere between 18 and 50 watts off the inverter at the same time. How long would it have to run to convince YOU??


Dave

Offline Hoppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4324
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #320 on: August 01, 2013, 05:30:18 PM »
Hoppy,
There is definitely a way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this thing puts out way more energy than is contained in the primary batteries.


Dave

David,

If you are confident about this, then you need to detail exactly how you intend to work out how many ampere hours have been extracted from your primary batteries, given that the mechanical loading on the motor(s) and any applied electrical loading (such as an inverter) on the batteries will be variable over the duration of the run. The rate and level of current draw from your batteries will affect the run time (ref: virtual capacity - Peukerts Law). Also, How do you intend to properly measure the current drawn by the motor? Think in terms of using a power analyser which will give you total watt/hours, which can then be converted to Amp hours by using the average secondary battery voltage measured over the duration of the test. See this link for examples of power analysers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RkldBzc-Vs

With an instrument of this type, you will also be able to determine the amount of energy in w/hrs delivered to the primary batteries during the charging process. This energy of course needs to be taken into account when working out the overall efficiency of the system.

Offline Dbowling

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #321 on: August 01, 2013, 07:05:12 PM »
I purchased a power analyzer. Should be here in a couple days, but this pushes things off until next Wednesday. That gives me some more time anyway. I'm not sure if it will work since the motor is wired between the positives of two batteries, but I can still use it to measure the DC output of the generator in amps and volts. I can measure the output of the inverter through the kilowatt meter. To measure what the motor uses I can measure the amps, volts and time it has been running. Since it will run at a constant speed, that should be accurate enough for this test. Because I think you will be surprised by how long this setup will run.


Dave

Offline Hoppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4324
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #322 on: August 01, 2013, 07:18:53 PM »
I purchased a power analyzer. Should be here in a couple days, but this pushes things off until next Wednesday. That gives me some more time anyway. I'm not sure if it will work since the motor is wired between the positives of two batteries, but I can still use it to measure the DC output of the generator in amps and volts. I can measure the output of the inverter through the kilowatt meter. To measure what the motor uses I can measure the amps, volts and time it has been running. Since it will run at a constant speed, that should be accurate enough for this test. Because I think you will be surprised by how long this setup will run.


Dave

Good move. I mentioned overall system efficiency. You need to have some benchmarks as to when you re-charge and measure the input energy to your your primary batteries and a consistent re-charge period between test cycles. This is where the SG level may be a better benchmark than voltage levels, assuming you can measure this accurately enough. The system COP will tell you how close to unity your system is running. This is not a straightforward procedure and as I mentioned earlier, it may be difficult to determine if any free energy is entering the system, especially as I predict the COP will be nowhere near as high as you are expecting.

Please document your test procedure and your measurements for each test cycle, preferably in spreadsheet format, so that all interested parties can use these measurements as a basis for conducting their own tests for comparative purposes. This should encourage more people to come on board to build their own 3BGS systems.

Offline Dbowling

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #323 on: August 01, 2013, 07:49:28 PM »
Hoppy,
I am going to run the Modified 3BGS circuit. There is no need to stop it and rest the batteries. It is a stable circuit. The buffer battery stays at about 12.2 volts while drawing energy out of it to run the inverter. The two dead batteries hold their voltage, although sometimes transducer 2 climbs in voltage (which we DON'T want.) And the primaries hold level. The longest run anyone has done with this circuit is 10 hours. I believe I can run it for a really long time, so measuring the SG of all the batteries once at the beginning and once at the end is all that is needed. No stopping, no recharging of anything. If transducer 2 gains too much charge, I will simply stop, discharge it, and start again from where I left off. I am going to run it until it won't run anymore or several days go buy of recorded continuous loads that far exceed what is possible from two batteries, and then we will measure the SG of all the batteries again and see where we are. I know you don't have any faith, but I do. I have been working with this for five years and I know what I have seen. Too many others have seen the same thing.


Dave

Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3952
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #324 on: August 01, 2013, 08:21:32 PM »
those s.g. results ought to be very revealing bowt whats going down dave.im holdin thumbs

Offline Hoppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4324
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #325 on: August 01, 2013, 08:31:29 PM »
Hoppy,
I am going to run the Modified 3BGS circuit. There is no need to stop it and rest the batteries. It is a stable circuit. The buffer battery stays at about 12.2 volts while drawing energy out of it to run the inverter. The two dead batteries hold their voltage, although sometimes transducer 2 climbs in voltage (which we DON'T want.) And the primaries hold level. The longest run anyone has done with this circuit is 10 hours. I believe I can run it for a really long time, so measuring the SG of all the batteries once at the beginning and once at the end is all that is needed. No stopping, no recharging of anything. If transducer 2 gains too much charge, I will simply stop, discharge it, and start again from where I left off. I am going to run it until it won't run anymore or several days go buy of recorded continuous loads that far exceed what is possible from two batteries, and then we will measure the SG of all the batteries again and see where we are. I know you don't have any faith, but I do. I have been working with this for five years and I know what I have seen. Too many others have seen the same thing.


Dave


David,

Its important to know how much energy you have put into the batteries before starting a run and have a benchmark as to when to stop the run even if you only do one long run. Otherwise, you do not know how much energy is stored in the battery to begin with in order to calculate COP. I have no doubt that you can run it for a really long time but how long is longer than should be expected for those batteries,  if you don't know what energy you started off with! You can't charge your good batteries from nil capacity or run them down to nil capacity (unless you want to add them to your bad battery pile), so you need a benchmark as to how long the system runs before you system starts eating into the charge that was already in the batteries before you charged them. Otherwise, your results could be really skewed. How do you propose to establish this benchmark?

Hoppy

Offline Dbowling

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #326 on: August 01, 2013, 09:17:59 PM »
I have run this motor/gen combination off a fully charged battery until that battery would no longer run the motor. I did this half a dozen times with these brand new lawn and garden batteries and they were all within minutes of each other in run times. I posted those run times already somewhere on EF, but the times are in my notebook. When I have six batteries and they all run the motor for about the same length of time on a full charge, I ASSUME that is about how long they should run that load. Yes, I know SOME batteries might be able to run the load longer, but...TWO of these are the SAME two batteries I am using as my primaries. Now, you have to admit, When they were brand new and fully charged they should have run this motor/gen combo for longer than they will now that I have totally abused them by draining them until they would no longer run the load. So I KNOW how long the good batteries will power this load under the best of circumstances. Now I am adding 4 coils to the generator, which will make it run harder and draw more amps. I am adding the two dead batteries and the buffer battery that is a GOOD battery but has been purposely drained down to 12 volts. I will measure the specific gravity of each cell of all of these before I start.


By the way, that is how I have figured out how long ALL of my batteries should run my load. I bought ten of the 18 1/2 amp hour batteries and used each one to run the motor until it wouldn't run any more. Recorded those run times. Yes, some run the load a little longer than others, but not HOURS longer, NOT days longer, and certainly not WEEKS longer. I took four of those batteries I wanted to kill and recharged them; then did that process over and over and over until they became my "bad" batteries for my experiments. And I recorded THOSE run times too. So I have a fairly GOOD idea of how long a brand new battery will run my motor as a load. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but they don't happen every time. That's why it's called an exception. With this setup you get those long run times EVERY TIME. That is why I believe there is something there. But...we will see.

Offline Hoppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4324
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #327 on: August 01, 2013, 10:30:56 PM »

David,

I hear what you say and hope that you can verify this by taking and recording energy measurements.

Offline Dbowling

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #328 on: August 08, 2013, 05:27:03 AM »
If you guys are watching the thread at EF, you will see that we have a fairly stable setup that is able to run loads while keeping the primary charged and in some cases increasing the voltage in the primaries. The issue is, it will NOT work with lead acid batteries, only with AGM. Can anyone suggest a test that would satisfy everyone using AGM batteries? I would be happy to conduct that test and post the results. I don't know that measuring the specific gravity of AGM batteries will give folks the proof they are looking for.


Dave

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13968
Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #329 on: August 08, 2013, 12:23:17 PM »
AGM batteries are just Lead-Acid batteries with glass fiber mats, sort of like sponges, to hold the electrolyte and to permit H and O recombination, like other SLAs, so no water needs to be added like you have to with flooded LA batteries.

The chemistry is the same as ordinary Lead-Acid batteries, except for the recombination... and this is the same for all SLAs whether they have glass mats, gels, or other electrolyte retention systems.

So what is the explanation for why this system only works with AGM batteries and not other SLAs?