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Author Topic: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device  (Read 284187 times)

Offline markdansie

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #300 on: July 28, 2013, 08:17:24 PM »
@David
the other devices i also reviewed, tested or other wise also got up to 5 x the run time or power output over the battery ratings, so I do understand what you are seeing.This is for a lot of reasons both I and others have listed, but you only see what you want to see,
That is fine, I am sure in another 5 years we will have the same conversation
I am not sure you  understand or why you ignor others who have a gone before you (and in some cases after)
Mark

Offline mscoffman

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #301 on: July 28, 2013, 08:24:35 PM »
DBowling,
 
You tend to talk too much. :-) You should be showing computer generated graphs.
 
My tendancy is to roughly monitor the voltage on each battery using the CV control
voltage inputs on multiple CMOS NE555's one for each battery. Feed the digital AC into
a capacitively coupled multiplexor to a computer controller like an Audino so that it
can keep track of the voltage on each battery.
 
Then use the computer controller to reconfigure the circuit using latching relays
(which draw power only when being reconfiured) to discharge the excess energy
into a headlamp load with high and low voltage setpoints. As the system
recharges itself the charge/discharge frequency will increase as the system
reaches maximum charge at which time the the load can be run for a very long
time to discharge the batteries to a nice low level. Then start the recycling
recharge again. Where is the excess energy to recharge the system coming
from?
 
Whether it works with capacitors or not, is dependent on whether LENR in
the Acid/Lead battery is where the extra energy is coming from, or is being
static-electricity voltage downconverted from. So that is worth a try, but
show it with the graphics, that is.
 
Don't tell critics about it...show them about it.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman
 

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #302 on: July 28, 2013, 08:42:59 PM »
Marl,
I appreciate that. It will take me some time and some money to put that all together, but that sounds like a worthwhile setup to use for testing. I will see what I can do. And you are right. I get excited and talk WAY too much. ;-)


Dave

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #303 on: July 30, 2013, 01:00:48 AM »
I have been thinking about this. Since I have a two channel scope, why don't I simply connect one channel to each of the primary batteries. It will show the voltage on the battery at the bottom of the screen. The dead batteries remain dead, and the buffer battery remains flat at whatever voltage it was when you started the system. So if the motor is running for many hours or days, where does the power come from if those primaries do not change in voltage, or go up? I can scope the voltage in the dead batteries and the buffer battery with my OTHER scope, and though I don't have enough scopes to have one on every battery, I can scope beginning and ending voltages in a run cycle. Would this be sufficient? It would seem to me that a scope would be far more accurate than a cheap battery tester would be.


Dave

Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #304 on: July 30, 2013, 03:31:53 AM »
idono man idono.maybe that 3rd bat isnt needed at all.maybe because of backspiking any bat would register a longer amphour on any motor straight.a semi-recycling of energy going on.much like any inductor circuit on this website.

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #305 on: July 30, 2013, 03:36:38 AM »
The third battery serves a purpose. It provides a potential difference to run current through the motor from high 24 volt side to low (bad battery) side with minimal losses except heat and friction. I mistakenly put in here a fact that was about the motor, not battery three, and have edited it out. For those who already read it. Sorry, my mistake. Trying to type while my godson was running around, and I am babysitting.


DAve

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #306 on: July 30, 2013, 09:26:45 AM »
I have been thinking about this. Since I have a two channel scope, why don't I simply connect one channel to each of the primary batteries. It will show the voltage on the battery at the bottom of the screen. The dead batteries remain dead, and the buffer battery remains flat at whatever voltage it was when you started the system. So if the motor is running for many hours or days, where does the power come from if those primaries do not change in voltage, or go up? I can scope the voltage in the dead batteries and the buffer battery with my OTHER scope, and though I don't have enough scopes to have one on every battery, I can scope beginning and ending voltages in a run cycle. Would this be sufficient? It would seem to me that a scope would be far more accurate than a cheap battery tester would be.


Dave

A good battery tester / analyser is not cheap. A scope will only give you voltage readings, which will not tell you the capacity at the start and end of the test run. You need to have SG readings and / or capacity readings for both of your good batteries. Voltage readings will not give you the info you need. Plot out the full discharge voltage curves for your good batteries and look at them carefully to see why voltage readings alone cannot easily tell you what capacity you have lost over a given time period.

Offline markdansie

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #307 on: July 30, 2013, 10:59:45 AM »
@ Hoppy
one failing and I do not have the answer to regards measurement. None of the instruments available can measure improvements to battery capacity through de-sulfation and other changes that may occur, and the impacts it has on the lifespan of the battery. Hate to be the party pooper.
Old batteries can have their life and performance improved, new batteries often have their lifespan reduced.(common observation by other experimenters)
Mark

Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #308 on: July 30, 2013, 11:27:40 AM »
no no @markdansie.a specific gravity test will reveal exactly how much power is being burned,regardless of surface area changes.we demand a highly sensitive specific gravity test before and after runs.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #309 on: July 30, 2013, 12:02:39 PM »
@ Hoppy
one failing and I do not have the answer to regards measurement. None of the instruments available can measure improvements to battery capacity through de-sulfation and other changes that may occur, and the impacts it has on the lifespan of the battery. Hate to be the party pooper.
Old batteries can have their life and performance improved, new batteries often have their lifespan reduced.(common observation by other experimenters)
Mark

Mark,

I was careful in suggesting that the 'good' batteries are capacity and SG measured to show David that there is capacity removed despite the terminal voltages showing little drop. The bad sulfated battery would be rejected on the analyser anyway of course. However, as Profitis points out, SG readings taken on the bad battery before and after a test run will give a good indication of its state of charge.

You are correct about new batteries that can suffer life reduction through radiant / spike conditioning. This is especially the case with SLABS which have pasted lead plates, where the plates can be damaged by  aggressive conditioning.

Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #310 on: July 30, 2013, 09:37:01 PM »
@hoppy..that makes no dif to total power consumed versus relinquished.total power has zero to do with physical state of bats and evrything to do with H2SO4 depletion in electrolyte.Pb+SO4--=PbSO4+2electrons+energy.if this man,s s.g. hasnt changed or increased after these runs then we have a serious serious issue here.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #311 on: July 30, 2013, 09:51:01 PM »
@hoppy..that makes no dif to total power consumed versus relinquished.total power has zero to do with physical state of bats and evrything to do with H2SO4 depletion in electrolyte.Pb+SO4--=PbSO4+2electrons+energy.

Agreed, a battery does not gain or relinquish power, it takes and relinquishes charge to gain or loose capacity.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #312 on: July 31, 2013, 10:10:53 AM »
David, I have been following your work quietly for some time and have conducted my own experiments with the 3BGS. As you well know, a sulfated battery may have retained a considerable level of charge before it sulfated to a condition where its internal resistance reached a point that makes it unuseable for normal applications. When this same battery is de-sulfated to some extent by 'spike' conditioning, the 'locked-in' energy is released and can begin to run a load. It may take a considerable time for the energy to released to a level that can start to run a load and I've had to wait as long as 45 mins before some batteries show any sign of life on the 3BGS system and allow my scooter motor to start turning. Nonetheless, even these apparently 'stone dead' batteries can also have considerable 'locked-in' energy that can be coaxed out by prolonged conditioning. I have found that its not possible to extract all of the 'locked-up' energy from a sulfated battery just by loading it for a long time, so when you think an old  battery has been fully discharged because its unloaded terminal voltage is just a volt or so, it can still hold a considerable level of energy waiting to be released by desulfation!

The effect caused by the release of this energy is to cause increase potentialisation which can cause the 'good' batteries to appear to hang or even increase in voltage level as their internal impedances attempt to stabilise to the condition imposed on their terminals from the 'dead' battery. This gives the impression that the 'good' batteries are being charged or just not draining as quickly as expected for the load across the 'dead' battery. Placing even more load across the 'dead' battery seems to have little effect on the 'good' batteries and can even cause their terminal voltage to increase! However, a point is reached when the 'good' batteries have impedance stabilised sufficiently and start supplying more current to maintain the load that cannot be maintained by the 'bad battery. From that point on its down hill all the way! The effects we see are all to do with battery vagaries and nothing to do with free energy IMO.

I'm glad you guys are addressing this, I've tried to suggest the effects were from "battery effects" as well. There are many different ones.

Sucahyo showed a battery which demonstrated an effect I have seen in a battery myself, where the battery seems dead/heavily sulfated and is sulfated but not drained of charge, the result is that when a globe or load is placed on the battery nothing happens and the voltage drops to practically zero, then after some time the battery begins to give up energy and the globe lights up the voltage rises under the load and the current keeps improving the effect until the globe is fully lit and full current flows, with a reasonable voltage at the terminals observed. If the load is not enough nothing happens. I'll try to find that video, but I think I linked it in the EF thread.

Also even a battery that appears to be dead say (3v) still has a lot of charge anyway.

I use a Specific Gravity Tester and I have done similar experiments as they are doing quite some time ago, I have observed many strange looking effects but always if a load is run the charge of the batteries as a group is lowered.

Here is a test setup I made some time ago, to "loop" current in a kind of a Tesla Switch or Potential - Switch as I like to call the arrangement. The difference in potential created with three batteries arranged in the three battery "Switch" configuration simply allows loads to run between two positive battery terminals or between two negative battery terminals, there may be some benefits to doing that but none produce free energy. I think the setup in my video is quite efficient and self adjusting. But not of much practical use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YHlA0BNl7M

It must be remembered that the third battery on the load side is in fact part of the load on the other two series batteries, it also provides an opposing emf which could be considered as a counter emf which is somewhat dynamic. The motor or load is just that a motor as a load. it's spikes may well aid in reducing sulfation and allowing the release of "trapped in " charge.

Cheers

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #313 on: July 31, 2013, 03:27:41 PM »
I'm glad you guys are addressing this, I've tried to suggest the effects were from "battery effects" as well. There are many different ones.

Sucahyo showed a battery which demonstrated an effect I have seen in a battery myself, where the battery seems dead/heavily sulfated and is sulfated but not drained of charge, the result is that when a globe or load is placed on the battery nothing happens and the voltage drops to practically zero, then after some time the battery begins to give up energy and the globe lights up the voltage rises under the load and the current keeps improving the effect until the globe is fully lit and full current flows, with a reasonable voltage at the terminals observed. If the load is not enough nothing happens. I'll try to find that video, but I think I linked it in the EF thread.

Also even a battery that appears to be dead say (3v) still has a lot of charge anyway.


Cheers

Good points raised Farmhand. Yes, many so called 'dead' batteries that end up scrapped have become badly sulfated (stratified) due to not being fully charged after each cycle of use but can still hold a considerable charge. These will eventually spring to life (some a lot quicker than others) when the internal resistance has fallen enough to supply sufficient current to the series connected motor and start it turning. As David has found out, when this happens, they start to take a charge, which results in the the two 'good' batteries draining down over time. With a heavy enough load across the 'bad' battery, the 'good' batteries can sometimes be seen to rise in potential for a period of time. This is whilst their internal resistance is adjusting to the load. It is during this period (which can be lengthy) when load balancing can prolong this effect and really heavy loads like inverters can be hooked-up, without the terminal voltage of the 'good batteries' appearing to drop! However, SG readings before and after these heavy loaded runs will reveal that the 'good' batteries have lost charge proportional to the load applied. I hope that David will see this effect for what it really is - a battery vagary - when he starts to take proper measurements under a realistic test procedure.


Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #314 on: July 31, 2013, 09:10:24 PM »
OK Guys, here is the test I am going to run. If this is not adequate, speak now or forever hold your peace because I am not going to spend all my time jumping through hoops for people who won't even take the time to build this and see for themselves.


!. Measure the specific gravity of every cell in every battery in the setup
2. Measure the voltages on all the batteries with my scope
3. Measure the output of the inverter through a kilowatt meter to a known load (from 17-30 watts depending on what I need to balance my motor running my generator)
4. Measure the output of the generator through a full wave bridge and a voltage regulator to some 12 volt lights in terms of amps and voltage produced over time
5. Measure the specific gravity of all cells in all batteries at the end of the run and the voltages of all batteries as well.


It is my contention that 3 and 4 above are all gravy as long as the specific gravity in the primaries has remained level or increased and the specific gravity in all other batteries has remained level or increased. Does that about do it? Please let me know before I start this. Probably won't start until tomorrow morning as I have a couple things till to do before I am ready to run. And I will only be doing a 10 hour run as my wife objects to the noise of the motor running right under us.
Next week, however, I plan on moving this setup out to my pool room, which is a converted garage separate from the house, and letting it run for a few days just to see what happens. UPDATE: Will probably be a little later than that, since I didn't get everything done I needed to do today. Could not find my tap and die set, which necessitated a run to the auto parts store I had not anticipated and I lost hours I needed. But if all goes well in the morning I ail still fire it up SOMETIME tomorrow. If not, then Friday. I will be pout of town for a four day weekend, so I am really shooting for tomorrow sometime.


Dave
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 02:09:39 AM by Dbowling »