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Author Topic: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device  (Read 267034 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #285 on: July 26, 2013, 09:50:19 PM »
@bowling..p.s. i hope your lead acids are totaly sealed when running my friend.if there is the slightest air inlet anywhere they will exceed the stated amphour ratings by quite a margin due to oxygen gas taking over as oxidizer when PbO2 runs out at the cathode.specific gravity tests on the acid should reveal much info yes.

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #285 on: July 26, 2013, 09:50:19 PM »

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #286 on: July 26, 2013, 11:09:46 PM »
David,

You say " I know how long they will run that load before they won't run no more."

To get a fair comparison of running 'on system' to 'off system' the same running conditions would need to be copied in terms of actual running times, rest times and loadings. It makes a lot of difference running a load continuously to intermittently in terms battery life. To do this a lot of data needs to be taken when running on the 3BGS before a fair 'off system' comparison could be attempted. Another factor is load sharing. The 'Peukert' effect comes into play here, where batteries in the system are being drained unequally, as would be the case with a 3BGS setup. Some batteries could be loaded under their C20 rating and some in excess of this rating. Running a load under the C20 rating will add 'virtual' capacity to a battery, whereas running over will decrease nominal capacity where this is based on the C20 loading.

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #287 on: July 27, 2013, 12:54:14 AM »
You people never cease to amaze me. No matter WHAT I say, you are going to come back with something else. I ran the exact test you are talking about. I ran loads that are FAR below the C20 rate of discharge. I ran both systems for the same amount of time. I let them rest for the same amount of time before running again. This is all documented on the thread at EF.


But you know what? I didn't need to do that test AT ALL. It says right on the battery what its amp hour rating is. If I know the amp hour consumption of my load, I know how many amp hours it will run on ANY battery under PERFECT conditions, which include temperature, charge, discharge rate, blah, blah, blah. If I give EVERY battery the absolute benefit of the doubt and assume it puts out the MAX amp hours listed on the battery, which we all know it doesn't, the modified 3BGS can take those EXACT SAME batteries and run that same load for 10 or 20 times as long. And I say the primaries are still fully charged at the end. But does it REALLY matter if they are?


If I leave here, I give you guys the last word, and I hate that, but that's the way it goes, and I have better things to do. I can't say this has been fun, because all it does is annoy me, but like I said, I felt I owed it to some folks. I have paid that debt, so you guys DO get the last word. I am always at EF on the 3BGS thread. Stop on by.

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #287 on: July 27, 2013, 12:54:14 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #288 on: July 27, 2013, 01:37:29 AM »
@bowling your only true friend will be the specific gravity tests.do them and do them carefuly.they are the only measurements that wont lie to you .every single lead atom that burns will consume an acid molecule and deplete its concentration.you can calculate to perfection exactly how much power was spent this way.make dam sure the vents are shut tight when running and when you open them for samples,close them quick afterward.dont ever leave them open too long,the lead sponge wants to suck air in and self-discharge.Pb+O+H2SO4=PbSO4+H2O

Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #289 on: July 27, 2013, 01:40:39 AM »
@hoppy dont worry about all that.the only thing we need to know are the specific gravity results.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #289 on: July 27, 2013, 01:40:39 AM »
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Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #290 on: July 27, 2013, 02:47:29 AM »
Guys, I actually was done here, but someone on our thread pointed out an error to me, and I need to pass this info along. I showed a video of my razor scooter motor running another razor scooter motor pulling 11 amps. I assumed since my generator I am running with a DIFFERENT razor scooter motor was heavier, that it would pull more amps. Someone pointed out to me that their motor unloaded was pulling less than ONE amp and no matter how much pressure they put on the shaft they could not get it to read 11 amps. I went back and tested the motor running my big generator and it is only pulling slightly over 2 amps. The razor scooter motor running another motor is a disaster. I get different readings with analogue vs digital from 11 amps to 6 amps. When i try to run the motor at the other end of the shaft, it won't even run, and I was using it as a generator. So there are definite issues with these two motors. Luckily I have two more on order. There may also be issues with my meters. I will spend some time this weekend calibrating them.


Obviously this throws all my calculations out the window, so I am shutting my mouth until I get everything calibrated off a known voltage and amp supply. Then I will be back here. I still think I am correct, but at this point I lack the accurate data to support my conclusions.


Dave


Still doing that other test though, and I can still run my GOOD motor with the generator, which is what I have been running all along...only assuming 10 amp load when it is only just over two.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #291 on: July 27, 2013, 09:49:49 AM »
Guys, I actually was done here, but someone on our thread pointed out an error to me, and I need to pass this info along. I showed a video of my razor scooter motor running another razor scooter motor pulling 11 amps. I assumed since my generator I am running with a DIFFERENT razor scooter motor was heavier, that it would pull more amps. Someone pointed out to me that their motor unloaded was pulling less than ONE amp and no matter how much pressure they put on the shaft they could not get it to read 11 amps. I went back and tested the motor running my big generator and it is only pulling slightly over 2 amps. The razor scooter motor running another motor is a disaster. I get different readings with analogue vs digital from 11 amps to 6 amps. When i try to run the motor at the other end of the shaft, it won't even run, and I was using it as a generator. So there are definite issues with these two motors. Luckily I have two more on order. There may also be issues with my meters. I will spend some time this weekend calibrating them.


Obviously this throws all my calculations out the window, so I am shutting my mouth until I get everything calibrated off a known voltage and amp supply. Then I will be back here. I still think I am correct, but at this point I lack the accurate data to support my conclusions.


Dave


Still doing that other test though, and I can still run my GOOD motor with the generator, which is what I have been running all along...only assuming 10 amp load when it is only just over two.

David,

A motor draw of 2 Amps as opposed to your meter reading of 11 Amps is much more in line with your previously quoted 18+ hours run time. A robust testing procedure is clearly called for making sure that all run times and rest times are accurately recorded and test equipment is fit for purpose and calibrated. In addition to taking SG readings as suggested by Profitis to get an accurate state of charge, a battery analyser would also be helpful to remove guesswork as to actual battery capacities, especially for those not using FLA's.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #291 on: July 27, 2013, 09:49:49 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #292 on: July 27, 2013, 01:51:23 PM »

Good for you, David. It would be great if everyone would report their problems and errors as well as their successes and positive results.  Criticism from others is often valuable in pointing out problems that we ourselves might miss. Learning comes from analyzing failures, more than from celebrating successes, in my opinion.
I wish you happiness and peace.
 8)

Offline profitis

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #293 on: July 27, 2013, 02:04:40 PM »
backspikes will probably blunten the 4ward reading of ammeters somewhat i guess.depends where the energy of the bakspike is going.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #293 on: July 27, 2013, 02:04:40 PM »
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Offline markdansie

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #294 on: July 28, 2013, 03:13:52 AM »
@David
The journey is more important than the result.
I applaud you for looking ore carefully at your instrumentation and your methodology. There are many wise, experienced and qualified people here who can assist with advice and experience.
In majority of  cases I have personally seen and been part of testing it came down to measurement errors or poor instrumentation.
The other is making assumptions what a motor or generator is drawing unloaded.


It is good you acknowledge mistakes, that is how we learn and move on.


One suggestion I always make to inventors ....track and try to explain the energy cycle. Where does it come from?


Many of us who you were thinking were criticizing were actually trying to help, some of us  lack diplomacy skills




I wish you the best
Kind Regards




Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #295 on: July 28, 2013, 06:52:36 AM »
Guys,
I am not concerned simply because not only have I been running this thing for five years, but I have done many test runs where I DIDN'T have an issue with correct measurements of the amp draw. Not only that, but I have a friend who has a battery analyzer that costs way more than I can afford, and he has done runs of HIS 3BGS setup and checked the batteries. And I know what those results were. So the fact that the data was messed up on one test really doesn't concern me. I was very excited about the data, but I still have faith in this system. Anyone who has built the original 3BGS and gotten the right "bad" third battery  (you can go through a LOT before you do!!) will tell you that until that 3rd battery begins to take a charge, you can pull almost unlimited energy out of this system. If you can balance the load on the motor with the load on battery three, you can stretch that time out, but eventually it comes to an end. Sometimes it will last for minutes. Sometimes a day or even a couple weeks. But it always ends when that bad battery begins to charge up. We have Fixed more bad batteries than I care to count. Balancing the load on the motor with the load on battery three was the other big problem with the system. It was extremely difficult to do.


We have a new, modified 3BGS setup that actually uses 5 batteries instead of three, like the original, and I have only tested it in short runs. I did over a dozen runs of from 30 to 60 minutes, without recharging the primaries.Because of their length, they are inconclusive. Although, every time the ending voltage in the primaries was higher than the start voltage. The two LONG runs I did of this new system are the ones that I got inaccurate data from. The best part about the new system is it is easy to keep in balance, and the bad batteries don't seem to take a charge for a really long time, although if you let it get out of balance, "POW", bad battery restored and primaries drop in voltage. So it is looking like our two major issues may be solved. With the old setup I might get one run out of thirty where I could get charging on the primaries, With this new setup, I get it EVERY time. So I am VERY excited.


I have an issue with the connection between the motor and the generator on my current setup, and I have just wound four coils for the generator, which up to now was just a dead weight load on the motor that served no purpose. Tomorrow I will attempt to fix the shaft issue. If I get that done, I will be ready to do a long run of the setup on Monday when I can be around to watch it all day long. The batteries SHOULD be conditioned by then and ready to go. I will be buying four new meters at Harbor Freight first thing on Monday also, as well as a battery analyzer. They have one on sale for $60 that will measure the cold cranking amps of the battery as it sits. I believe that should tell you what you want to know.


Dave

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #295 on: July 28, 2013, 06:52:36 AM »
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Offline markdansie

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #296 on: July 28, 2013, 07:53:40 AM »
@ David
1. You inspire a lot of confidence knowing your instrumentation is coming from Harbor Freight.
2. Many years ago I reconditioned hundreds of batteries for people with small solar systems. We would get the traded in batteries from auto shops and i used a very expensive pulse charger system to rejuvenate them (some were like new when we finished). We also re conditioned the existing deep cell batteries they had. So i believe you when you say you have fixed so many batteries.
3. You had to go through many batteries for the third battery before you find the right one...Why? What property differentiates that battery from others, you may then have a key to understanding whats going on.


All the best I will not bother here anymore, I am happy you have passion about what you are doing and enjoy the journey.
Kind Regards


PS as far as any excess energy other than from whats coming from the battery...BS, and you do not have the data , methodologies to support that you do.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #297 on: July 28, 2013, 10:27:39 AM »
@ David
1. You inspire a lot of confidence knowing your instrumentation is coming from Harbor Freight.
2. Many years ago I reconditioned hundreds of batteries for people with small solar systems. We would get the traded in batteries from auto shops and i used a very expensive pulse charger system to rejuvenate them (some were like new when we finished). We also re conditioned the existing deep cell batteries they had. So i believe you when you say you have fixed so many batteries.
3. You had to go through many batteries for the third battery before you find the right one...Why? What property differentiates that battery from others, you may then have a key to understanding whats going on.


All the best I will not bother here anymore, I am happy you have passion about what you are doing and enjoy the journey.
Kind Regards


PS as far as any excess energy other than from whats coming from the battery...BS, and you do not have the data , methodologies to support that you do.

David,

Just make sure you don't fool yourself with innacurate data and continue to have fun.

With regards to the scooter motors, be aware that many of the used ones are defective. I have repaired dozens of speed controllers for a local retailer who imported rubbish scooters from China. In many cases, when the motors of the model that you are using were stripped-down, they were found to have burnt windings and did not run as freely as they should have. My advice therefore is not to use secondhand motors!

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #298 on: July 28, 2013, 06:29:01 PM »
markdansie,


You still aren't understanding me. Whether the meter I use is a $5,000.00 meter or a toy from Radio Shack doesn't matter. A meter is just a tool to help give me information. What maters is results.


Wil my setup run a known load of significance (for instance the motor I have that is pulling 2.5 watts of power) for MANY times longer than is possible when you look at the POSSIBLE amp hours of run time on the five batteries used in the system. I have 69 POSSIBLE amp hours of power, so my motor should be able to run it for 33.6 hours under PERFECT conditions. Now if I can run it for 66 hours or 99 hours and the primaries are still full, I believe I have something. But I am not going to stop there. I am just going to let it run until it stops running, and we will see. I DO need an accurate meter to measure the amps being consumed by the motor, but give me a break, do you really think the amp reading is going to be so far off that my results will be THAT tainted just because I used a meter from Harbor Freight?

Offline Dbowling

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Re: David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
« Reply #299 on: July 28, 2013, 06:34:36 PM »
Hoppy,


I just found out the hard way about those Razor Scooter motors. There are so many "knock offs" out there that like like them and you can't tell the difference because so many different company make that same motor. I am USUALLY rewinding them anyway, to build different configurations of pulse motors, but this ONE time I was trying to run the off the shelf motor and it blew up in my face. (Not literally)


Dave

 

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