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Author Topic: new? magnet/gravity motor  (Read 17559 times)

Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2008, 01:21:02 AM »
> you've sold me on the idea ...

YES!  I CAN SEE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND!!!

i tried to describe all the forces involved, but it started to take several hours!!!  there's a lot going on for such a simple device.  gravitational, centrifical, weight/momentum, magnetic - lots of forces.  but it is much easier if you can see it in your head.

things of note, which you have seen:

1. the lower-left static magnet should be more powerful than the upper-right static magnet.  as the lower cylindrical magnet passes the lower-left static magnet, the "bump" of the repelling forces to the upper-right actually works on both cylindrical magnets, since the cylindrical magnets oppose each other on the spoke.  the "bump" also works against gravity in moving the lower-left cylindrical magnet against gravity in rotation, and against the magnetic attraction at the upper-right as the cylindrical magnet leaves the static magnet.

2. stainless steel shielding, especially to the right of the lower-left static magnet, will actually ATTRACT the oncoming cylindrical magnet, whereas, normally it would be repelled, opposing CW revolution.

3. the "bump" that shifts the cylindrical magnets on the spoke should shift them at least half-way up the spoke (toward the upper-right).

4. it would be good to have the spoke well greased, and made of wood or something so as to not interfere with the magnetic fields.

it's tricky, but no matter how i look at it, i keep seeing that the forces favoring CW revolution can be made to outweight the forces opposing CW revolution.  it is almost like a vertical axis wind-turbine - except you have gravity working on one side, and magnetic forces (anti-gravity) working on the other side.

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2008, 01:21:02 AM »

Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2008, 01:37:35 AM »
> Hi all ive thought simler to this and im glad some of you are trying it cos i dont really have the tools or things to do so, i dont want to be negative but on the right side when the magnet is being pulled up it will get stuck in attraction mode to the external magnet , the magnet would then have to weigh so much to break itself free of the attraction and if it does so weigh that much then it would not lift up in the first place.

you are not taking into account the CW momentum - the cylindrical magnets don't have to get shifted more than 1/2 up the spoke in the upper-right direction, at which time, their momentum carries them on in a CW direction.  it is probably something that will only work at a certain steady-state RPM.

> You mention using sheilding thats a good idea on the left side tho i think if most the thrust makes the magnet go inwards it will be less upwards

yes, there is a balance to be achieved.  there are many factors - the shielding, the magnet positioning, sizes/strengths of the magnets, the speed of the spoke and related forces, etc.  it is only important that the cylindrical magnets get shifted passed the half-way point on the spoke.

> and on the right side when the magnet goes into attraction mode what sheilding material would you use?

at the upper-right, you would only have worry about shielding as the cylindrical magnet leaves the static magnet - but this is less important than the shielding on the lower-left static magnet.

the lower-left static magnet has much more work to do than the upper-right static magnet.

> sheilding to my knowledge is usally tin or some other metallic meterial and is mainly to use on like poles cos with like poles the magnets have repulsion + attraction from the tin etc so you get a neutral effect but with opposite poles the magnets have attraction + attraction so you will only get attraction, if there are non metallic meterials used for sheilding what are they?

stainless steel plates used as shielding act as stainless steel - they negate the effect of poles and make similar poles "attract" - because both similar poles are just attracted to the steel.  shielding has to be a magnetic material to trap the field.  i can see the person with the diagram understands these things very well.

Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2008, 01:40:59 AM »
> i havent given much thought yet to the "sliding mechanism" of the rotor magnets, if that proves to be necessary.

i think i would just use those cylinder wood sticks they sell at hardware stores - sand them and grease them and put a nail thru the center.  they are like long chop-sticks.


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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2008, 01:40:59 AM »
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Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2008, 01:55:10 AM »
> this tupe of dewices never could work because there are no energy input .

it isn't a matter of "energy", it is a matter of work, Force x Distance, and there are a lot of things doing work here.  energy is either potential or kinetic - it is the outcome, not the predecessor.

you have gravity doing work on the right side, and magnetic repulsion (anti-gravity) doing work on the left side.  the trick is to not allow any work to overpower the work of those forces.

> if one piece of something drop down you need energy to put it up agen.

yes, the lower-left static magnet - it is "anti-gravity".

> you need to breake gravitu if you want get weight back with les energy used.  you lose energy not only to move up and down weight but to move horizontaly too.

no - you gain energy due to the work of the lower-left static magnet, which serves to do the major work of shifting the cylindrical magnets, as well as doing some anti-gravity work to boost the cylindrical magnet on the left side up ...

> thus is why this grawity pendelum systems not work. and similar is problem with magnetic permamanet motors you need energy tu put something in magnetic field.

yes, the work done by gravity on the right side, along with the attraction of the shielding on the lower-left static magnet, serve to get the lower cylindrical magnet into the magnetic field of the lower-left static magnet.

Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2008, 01:58:09 AM »
> I have build this exact device and it didnt work. The repulsion of the lower magnet is bigger then the gain of the shifting weights.

it doesn't sound like you used shielding.

> Another thing is that if your give it a good spin, the centrifugal forces stop the magnets from shifting, the just stay on the outside.

that is a factor - it depends on the RPM and the weights and the magnetic attractions, etc.  i would say that this device will only work at a certain RPM, but it will strive to maintain that RPM even after a load is attached.

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2008, 01:58:09 AM »
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Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2008, 02:02:49 AM »
> There is no force more in one direction than the other direction, so it will not run.

sure there is - there is more work done by gravity on the right side than the left side - so long as the cylindrical magnets are shifted more than 1/2 way up the spoke as they align themselves with the static magnets.

> Or simply put: Magnetmotors simply do not work due to the nature that permanent magnets are - yes permanently magnetized.

it isn't a magnet motor, it is a magnet-based gravity Bessler Wheel.

Offline BasementExperiments

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 02:09:03 AM »
Wow, this is so cool. I had the very same idea ever since I seen some examples on youtube of various sorts.

This looks like the same sort of idea

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xi7haprAEvA

I really like this one too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LRRzVHLs4bU&feature=related

It does seem like it would work well...

There are a number of them all resulting in the idea of an unbalanced wheel. Looking forward in seeing some results from the experiment!  ;D

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 02:09:03 AM »
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Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 02:26:22 AM »
> the strength/distance of the stator magnets would be such that is was strong enough to 'slide' the magnet towards the outside of the arm, but not strong enough to pull the mass of the wheel to a stop.

right, and the cylindrical magnets only have to move about half-way up the spoke toward the upper right - not all the way - just enought to let gravity do an excess of work on the right side.

> the shielding was not so much to prevent repulsion/attraction, but rather to direct that repulsion + attraction along the radial-line of the 'arm'. offsetting the balance of the wheel, while allowing gravity to pull the wheel in the direction of rotation

right, although the shielding on the lower-left static magnet actually ATTRACTS the oncoming cylindrical magnet in favor of CW revolution, and then all cylindrical magnets get a big 'boost' to the upper-right as the cylindrical magnets align with the static magnets.  so, there is only about 1-2 degrees of magnetic repulsion opposing the CW rotation as the magnets pass each other on the lower-left.  keep in mind, the cylindrical magnets oppose each other, so the effect of the lower-left static magnet shifts both cylindrical magnets, so i think it should be the most powerful.  it also does anti-gravity work in pushing the cylindrical magnet on the left upwards.

Offline BasementExperiments

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 05:08:52 PM »
Wait, you should never be "PULLING" these magnets, they should always be pushed.

From the bottom side they are being pushed, this same technique should be used at the top side.

Therefore the magnet array should start near the ceter and gradually push outwards.

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 05:08:52 PM »
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Offline gwhy!

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2008, 06:21:07 PM »
Hi All
Yes I was about to say before someone else did that it wouldn't work because the repoltion would be to strong, there is a way you can use the Trigate with a gravity design and thats if you have 8 arms and a weight on each arm except one, the weight will be the Trigates roller magnet, you have the Trigate setup from 11 to 12:30 when a arm gets to 11 it drops a roller off the roller moves along to 12:30 and drops onto the arm that had no roller the moves the arm down to 1 and the opposite arm up to 11 where it drops the next roller onto the Trigate and the system starts again, its only moving from 12 to 1 every turn but its moving and should keep moving aslong as there is no magnetic interfearance.
Take Care All
Graham

Hi Graham,
     Im sorry I cant quite visualize what you are saying, any chance of a little diagram.

Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2008, 10:05:03 PM »
> Wait, you should never be "PULLING" these magnets, they should always be pushed.

yes, i think that is an excellent point.  there many ways to think of arranging things, possibly just using powerful shielded magnets on the left side.

you could even use a powerful cylindrical magnet for an axle, keeping the diameter of the wheel within reason.  have the poles along the length of the cylinder - with N facing the lower-left, and S facing the upper-right.

it would be good to have a magnetic foil for shielding.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 01:11:37 AM by 2b »

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2008, 10:05:03 PM »
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Offline BasementExperiments

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2008, 03:06:28 AM »
Nice animation above, exactly what I pictured.

Analysing it, I realized that having the cylinders come so close to one another in the center may not work. Too much potential magnetism there.

Keep the cylinders further out from the center.

Offline BasementExperiments

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2008, 03:08:38 AM »
btw, I've experimented with cylinders and rods before. The best configuration I found was to use aluminium knitting needles. They work great. They fit on the needles like they were meant to go there. I got the magnets from magcraft. Just pick one up and take it to the knitting store and buy a bunch of them for the spokes.  ;D

Offline 2b

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2008, 06:14:16 AM »
> The best configuration I found was to use aluminium knitting needles. They work great.

they might cause a slight problem because they will resist magnets sliding on them just as a copper-wire wound coil resists spin in a magnetic field.  when you have a magnetic field moving thru a conductor, it generates a current and electro-magnetic fields that will resist that motion.  it's actually quite strong - if you drop a cylindrical magnet down a 3ft metallic rod, to the best of my memory, the magnet will almost stop from the current induced electro-magnetic fields.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: new? magnet/gravity motor
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2008, 03:31:24 PM »
the best method of "shielding" that i have experimented with is multiple plates. (steel,iron, ect)

at least 2 plates, separated by 1-2mm air gap works great. this is used in the outer casing of Microwaves,
and that is also a perfect source for this type of shielding, it can be cut and bent to fit any design.
there are tons of old microwaves junked daily.

first plate redirects the lines of flux within the metal, the secondary (and subsequent plates) consume the stray flux radiating from the sides of the first plate. leaving you with NO magnetic fluxuation outside the plates.
 (that is, assuming you do not achieve satturation with the field strength vs. plate-mass)

@ 2B  -  what you would have to do to counter that type of "back EMF" is to use a magnetic mass larger than the mass of the 'rod'. this will cause the rod to satturate long before the repulsive force fully counters the downward motion.  using aluminum needles is probably a good place to start. would work better than say.. Brass, or some denser metals.

 

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