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Discussion board help and admin topics => Skeptical views and scam alerts => Topic started by: step1988 on August 28, 2005, 01:23:18 AM

Title: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: step1988 on August 28, 2005, 01:23:18 AM
but most of this stuff is laughable. Are there better ways to get energy, absolutaly, but overunity or even perpetual motion will never work. It's just a dream that everyone wishes were true, but alas cannot be.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: joegatt on August 28, 2005, 09:36:32 PM
No!
An air-conditioner working in heating mode is an example of an effective and highly useful case of overunity. Note that when we say overunity we are refering to Coefficient Of Performance (COP), not to efficiency.  You can, for instance, get 9kW of heating by running a 3kW air-conditioner. This is not to say you are getting energy from nowhere. The heat pump is simply pumping heat from the outside into your air-conditioned space.

Overunity systems, therefore, use up some input energy to tap even more energy from a source which would otherwise not be easily available. Unfortunately there are many attempts which try to tap into Zero Point Energy. But, as mainstream science points out, no one seem to know how to do this effectively.

Perpetual motion, on the other hand, is virtualy impossible to achieve on the macroscopic scale because the slightest inefficiency in the system will eventually drain all the energy away.  Also, beyond pure scientific interest, there isn't much point in setting up a process from which you cannot obtain energy to do work.  We can simply witness perpetual motion in some highly specialized instances, like, for example, the current flowing in a superconducting coil magnet. Similarly, the motion of an electron around an atomic nucleus can also be regarded as a true case of perpetual motion.

Regards
Joseph

Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on February 16, 2006, 06:33:42 AM
Joe,

I'm afraid step is right.  You said yourself that the air conditioner is moving heated air into the space.  That air was heated by something.  This is not overunity.

Simply put - there is no 'overunity'.  Any energy used was created somewhere by something.

I am hoping this forum will become something helpful.  I thought at first it would be a great place to interact with people who have more experience and education than me.  But... most of the people here are too busy trying to back-engineer some device that hasn't even proven itself worthy of it.
So in a way - I agree with step.  But... I think as long as it's a post proposing an idea - even if it's shot down later - it's worthy.  What's not worthy are the posts that cause people to get obsessed on soemthing that doesn't work - just because they have a box and a bunch of wires.

Here's my example. 

Telsa powered a car with a box of wire and tubes.  He said he was amplifying energy from the atmosphere.  You see that power everytime the wind blows.
If I posted something about what kind of antenna you'd need (which I did) and tried to stimulate a conversation about what kind of oscillator and amplifier you'd need to produce power... I'd get no response (which I didn't)
BUT... if I put some small calculator batteries in a box and showed 60v on a voltmeter... and then teased everyone along with hints at resonating frequencies and vortex magnetic fields and bullshit like that... I'd have half this damn forum getting blisters on their tricorder finger from pressing keys on their HPs.

So yeah - it's not so hard to see that there is 98% bullshit here.  But not all bullshit is bad. Just the bullshit that consumes more time than it's worth.
Maybe the people who think their bullshit doesn't stink will soon figure out that they are standing in a pile of shit.  Then maybe they will learn to smell first.  :)  If it smells like shit - you've only had to smell it.  We will sniff more this way and we will find the real shit sooner!

Peace!
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: robur on February 25, 2006, 11:18:03 PM

If you think this is all bulls**-then why are you still here? ???
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on February 26, 2006, 12:13:58 AM
I didn't say it was all bullshit.  That's why. :)

And I also qualified myself by saying that all bullshit is not bad.

But... apparently - my colorful language has (again) caused a misunderstanding.

No one has invented free energy.  Right?  That's why most people should be here - to bounce ideas around and to present data for others to confirm.
That's why topics discussing a theory should be busy.  Someone say's "hey - what about this?"  and people reply with their own experiences... or theories why it would not work - or why it would work. That should develop - if warranted - into a working device... OR - it will simply not work at some point.

My main complaint was about the people who post to say they have a device that produces free energy, or overunity.
What's the point?
If you have it working - either post the complete plans... or just bring the device to market. 
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: robur on February 26, 2006, 09:03:01 PM


How can you be so stupid? Bring device to market. Are you totaly crazy or what/. Do you really think that oil/gas companyes will allow that to happen? That is will be their doom. For good, as no one will ever buy any energy from them. EVER. They will do everything they can including shooting inventor down to prevent this thing from beeing marketed.

If someone post plans-not much will build. Everyone again will think those plans are con or hoax.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on February 26, 2006, 11:05:56 PM
That is illogical.  If you are not going to start building them and selling them... then why not post the plans?

It makes no sense that people would assume a hoax if someone posted a video of a working device along with the complete blueprints.
Especially when you see people chasing devices that are only hinted at here.

You are right that a person would be eliminated if they invented a device that ran for free.  So what are the options then?  Certainly it makes no sense to just sit at home and post here telling everyone that you have a working device.
The only use of this forum - for someone who has invented a free energy device - would be to either distribute it... or to have others try and replicate it.  Either way, you should post the plans.  If not, then what is your purpose?
There's an old saying - Shit, or get off the pot.  :)

As for the personal attacks.... I can assure you first of all that while I may be very ignorant of some things - as we all are... I am not stupid.  :)  Personal attacks serve no purpose but to show a lack of social skills on the part of the attacker.

And I really don't see why you are arguing with me about things that are off the original topic.  That was - too much time is wasted on specific devices that people claim to have working... at the expense of exploring other ideas.  Maybe after you have seen the cycle that repeats over and over and over and always ends with no free energy... then you will feel the same way.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: robur on February 27, 2006, 01:26:49 PM

I am sorry if you counted it as attack.

I do not tell about 100% free energy as 100% free output is not possible. I am saying about cheap r almost free energy. For example input 10V and get out 15-20V. Or have a motor that runs from 9V battry turn a small generator that would give out 40-50V CD OR AC.DC can be easyli transformed into AC and vise versa.

Energy companyes would not like this too, as a common know generator should produce less output then output and  15V IN-20-30V OUT-IS OVERINITY. Well, I will open a bottle of champane when they will get snookered. That would be great. And even greater is to make more energy out then you in. I am working towards it and I am sure you would like the way I want to accomplish it.  Nothing funny. Just a new type of generator. :)
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on February 27, 2006, 01:48:28 PM
I think you are right.  There is a way to get more power out than you put in by manipulating it using induction.  We've been bouncing some ideas around about resonant LC circuits in cascade... paticularly how unexplained magnetic field changes occur at resonance - even though impedance is high and so we are barely pulling any power.  Of course this is with the circuit resonating with the source of input.
If this is true with a 9v battery - then you can certainly use the potential between an antenna and a ground.  But that is something else to be worked out. :)

This is 'overunity' - but is not a second law violation.  The power is coming from somewhere... and that somewhere is where the magnetic field is coming from.  If you believe Lee Edskalnin (and he did build Coral Castle, so he knew something) then the magnetic field is sucked in from the atmosphere.  Perhaps then, Meyl is right on about his scalar waves.  AND if that is true - then the power companies are charging for nothing.
And you know, that whole ground return bullshit has always sounded more like voodoo to me.  With the size of the grid - you would expect something crazy going on. ;)  Not to mention all the metal we've put into the ground would certainly interfer... I'm sure that 100 years ago it sounded better, but today, I think it doesn't make sense.

We will both drink a toast to the demise of the empire that is the root of most of the conflict in the world.  It will also mean an end to 'wage slavery' and will hopefully begin a new era of peace and cooperation.  :)

Keep us posted of your progress.

Peace!

Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: magnetoelastic on March 02, 2006, 06:07:45 PM
If you really believe that 'Big Oil' or 'Big Electricity' will never let OU/ZPE reach the market - read the list of investors in Randell Mill's Blacklight Power.

From what I can tell, it is the fraudulent nature of most (not all) OU schemes that keep them from the market.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on April 24, 2006, 12:32:43 AM
I agree 100% magneto.  Logic would dictate that all overunity devices claimed over the years have been frauds or mistakes, since none of them are being used today. 
It also makes sense to me that if someone (like Steven Marks) has a working device...  then he needs to shit or get off the pot.  That whole thing is worth doubting at least... but the video being from 1997, makes it almost 100% sure to be a fraud.  Of course I noticed that he has a new video now... I shouldn't have brought it up... haha.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: jake on May 01, 2006, 01:56:12 PM
>> Note that when we say overunity we are refering to Coefficient Of Performance (COP), not to efficiency.

It is not obvious to the casual observer that this is the case.  It would add credibility to the site to be very clear about this.  I am new to the site, and I don't see any "about us" type of page that states or defines what "overunity" is.  I am new to the term "overunity" and did some searching, which quickly led me to this site.  Most of the information I see on the subject appears "cultish" to me.  People trying to make truths out of things they want to be true, that they think should be true, that never will be true (i.e. perpetual motion, etc.).
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: c0mster on May 01, 2006, 03:51:47 PM
The best thing about this site is that there are many ideas and theories posted here. Ok perhaps some people are magicians and have a bag of tricks to try to fool people or perhaps some people are actually using the bag of tricks to produce something. From what I can tell history shows that philosophy leads to proving. Take Faraday for instance in his book Experimental Research In Electricity Part 1. Faraday discovered that passing a magnet by a steal bar rapped with a coil produced a voltage. Today this is the principle of all ac generators, but really he was trying to understand the voltage produced by a falling current in a induction coil. If one looks back over the last 300 years it seems that big discoveries were found about every 100 years that changed our existence. I am neither a skeptic or a believer in overunity. But if in the early 1800?s some one told you they had a buggy that needed no horse to make it move and did not run on steam, people might think your are crazy. We all know now that the combustion engine drives our society. I find it hard to find people who understand the difference between philosophy and actual proving of a concept. I work with a guy who has all kinds of ideas he as systematically developed and tested in his head. He has drawn pictures and is convinced he has an idea that works. But physically he has no lab and has not lifted a finger to try his ideas. A few months ago I noticed a neighbor a few doors down had a motorbike that he stripped and placed batteries on the sides of the bike. I was amazed to see this, he is the first person I have actually met face to face that is doing something with his hands. It?s a little strange only hearing the tires on the road and the drive chain noise coming from a motor bike. Lots of talk goes on about the school girl motor and how it might be overunity and it may not. But one thing discovered was that using BEMF generated from a frequency would charge or recondition old batteries. Well turns out my neighbor purchased a battery charger for china that can recondition old batteries and he claims it brought batteries that tested as junk back to good. He uses those batteries on his bike. So I had a look at this device and gee it was using a frequency to create BEMF through a coil and the BEMF is used to charge the battery. For those of you who remember the 70?s there was a guy that had a carburetor that would give incredible gas mileage when used on a conventional engine and my father told me he had seen it first hand. That is the closest I have come to any of these devices. Skepticism can be like brain storming, it can uncover the truth and lead to ideas not thought of before. Oh boy this is long winded. But if there a people reading this site and trying to replicate these devices then their knowledge has expanded. If they don?t post answers to questions perhaps they are trying something physically and believe me that takes time and money. Perhaps people are just philosophical and are followers, I look to my own experiments to determine BS from truth and I document every thing and spend hours looking over the experiments to see if I missed anything. So BS or not BS keep up the good work folks.

Camster         
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: jake on May 01, 2006, 09:49:34 PM
Experiment all you want, but don't ignore physics.  It is a viable goal to try to figure out things would work like heat pumps that return more heat value than the electricity put in (other energy is being added by heat present in the air), but it is completely foolish to think you can get more energy out of something than is being put it.  If you do, you are simply not accounting for the energy being put in.  It is wishful thinking.

As for the magic carburetor, it is urban legend.  Since your dad saw it, just what mileage did it get?

>>I look to my own experiments to determine BS from truth and I document every thing and spend hours looking over the experiments to see if I missed anything

Believe me, if you start 'creating' energy, you missed something. (releasing energy is one thing, creating it is another.)
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: c0mster on May 02, 2006, 06:12:27 PM
Good point Jake.
Unfortunately my poor father is dead so I can?t ask him for more details of the carburetor and as well I have herd it is an urban myth. If I don?t have the evidence I won?t say it is for real. But I can tell you of a device I seen on a pick up truck that increased the old dodge gas mileage by about 30%. I was working for a farmer back in 79 and he had built this unit that heated the gas before it went into the carb. It was a fairly simple design. A coil cylinder which was inline with the engines heater hose. Inside was a inner coil of tubing, basically the gas was heated from the engine or as the farmer explained, the gas was expanded thus the expansion took place before it entered the intake manifold and cylinders of the engine wasting less fuel. He told me the heat from the engine was extra energy and could be transferred to expand the fuel. So there is no overunity here and energy is not created out of thin air. I have never seen or herd of this unit on any other vehicle. Don?t get me wrong I don?t ignore physics. Tesla talks of the either which was abandoned and only in the last few years it has been shown that matter still exists in a zero point vacuum. Your right you can?t create something from nothing. To abide to the laws of physics energy can only be transferred not created. As well if these OU units worked then why don?t I have one powering my house. So with regards to the heat pump, perhaps the magnetic force around the earth acts the same as the heat in the air. All we need to do is understand how to transfer that energy to assist in giving us better efficiency in producing electricity.

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 ???
I?m not sure how many people read these posts but perhaps some on can answer this question. I have a brass ring and a brass circle. The brass of course is not magnetic neither does it easily become statically charged.  Connecting these two items to a Tesla type coil and adjusting the gab between the 2 items at a certain point there is both static electricity as measured using a electroscope , and magnetism as measured by a compass. When pulsed slowly the electroscope shows static electricity and  the compass shows magnetism. So if I stop the arc then start it the compass moves 3 after about the third pulse it moves 6 at this point and then after only moves 3 , repeats. Based on electricity fundamentals charge is either in motion or static (The old textbook) . But magnetism created by a coil is charge in motion, moving electrons. Static electricity is excess electrons, always trying to balance themselves. Can anyone tell me why The magnetism is not constant? Note the brass ring is grounded to the earth not the circuit.

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I think this site is a great place for brainstorming and finding all kinds of new and different philosophies, I enjoy recreating ideas or concepts I find here, I think to me, that is what gives this site credibility. Its all in how to read it, entertainment.

 :)
Camster
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 10, 2006, 02:45:50 AM
Ok so I enjoy this site cause it's fun to read about people trying to reach the unattainable.
You simply cannot get more out than you put in.  You cannot get even 100% efficiency.
Isn't it funny that nearly all claims show their machine run only for a few seconds and some just show
a computer simulation of how their machine is suppose to work.

If there was anyone who achieved overunity and designed a system to generate more power than put in then
why isn't it out there.

This is a study that has been going on before oil companies so the oil company paranoia doesn't wash.

However, thinking about such things is good mental gymnastics.

Regards,
Valveman

"Theory and practice are the same thing! "In Theory"
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 11, 2006, 01:15:36 AM
>Ok so I enjoy this site cause it's fun to read about people trying to reach the unattainable.
>You simply cannot get more out than you put in.  You cannot get even 100% efficiency.
>Isn't it funny that nearly all claims show their machine run only for a few seconds and some just show
>a computer simulation of how their machine is suppose to work.

Well valveman,  I think you are totally wrong.   I currently have a motor that is running in excess of 500%.   Now where is it.  Well in my case the prototype motor that I built was only producing about .o21 hp.   Now it is impossable to get a fractional hp motor tested, I have checkec all over thre usa.  All test equipment will only test 1/2 hp or better.   I am in the process of building a bigger model now, may take a few more weeks to complete.   I have located a place in Va. that is setup to test the new model.   I think you will be hearing about it soon, or maybe NOT.   I have been working on this thing for over 25 years, night and day.   What makes you think that I would post plans on how to build one on the internet, like giving it away.   Just maybe I would like some pay back for my long hours of work.

An NO.   I am not the only one that has done the impossable.  There are three casses that I can account for that have been done by other people.  I have contacted those people and they are under contract not to talk about them.  They were paid very well.

No I don't send nasty responses.  That just leads to more nasty responses.  Can you clarify what you mean by a motor running in excess of 500%?  In excess of 500% what?  I have lots of motors that run in excess of 500% of something.  If you're saying your motor has a 500% efficiency then I find that to be smoke and magic..  Some make the mistake in thinking their motor runs greater than 100% by looking at only the inductive reactance response and not the important real components such as real current not reactive transfer currents found in resonant circuits.  If you could build a motor or generator that was overunity, then you would only need a small battery to start it and it would continually feed itself and provide power to other loads.  This is not possible.  With friction and Back EFM and a mirid of other energy draining phenomenom, the overunity motor or generator is just a dream.  It does not exist. 

BTW:  Nice to meet you JackH

Regards,
Valveman
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 11, 2006, 07:22:41 PM
Thank you for taking the time to comment JackH.

I've been around a lot of this so I have reason to be skeptical.  If I am proven wrong through some demonstation that proves it's possible, I will be happy to recant.  So far no one has been able to do that.  I don't take things on faith.  I have to see/measure it to believe it.  If you have accomplished this then I think that is terrific.  I however retain the right to be skeptical until shown otherwise.  I truly wish overunity is possible but the many demonstations that I have be involved in were hoaxes.

Cheers,
Valveman
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 12, 2006, 02:52:21 AM
Jack - You said that you would not post the plans and give it away.  But you also know that you will never live to sell it because you will be shot... unless you sell the plans to the people that would rather not see it go to market.

So my question is - will you sell out and keep the people of the world in slavery?

I'm sure you are aware of what free energy would mean to the world.  How much would it take to let you sleep at night?
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 12, 2006, 09:35:36 AM
Hi Jack,

In this post you say that you were not able to make proper test to your motor as it is too small for test machines.

Quote
I currently have a motor that is running in excess of 500%.   Now where is it.  Well in my case the prototype motor that I built was only producing about .o21 hp.   Now it is impossable to get a fractional hp motor tested, I have checkec all over thre usa.  All test equipment will only test 1/2 hp or better.

But at the same time you are giving data about 500% or 400% eficiency not only there as well in other post:

Quote
HP was tested on a prony brake and the voltage/current was monitored.   Input was 2.2 watts and the output was over 56 watts. At a pull down of around 200 rpm this motor exhibited over 500% efficiency.      I think that means it to be over 400% over unity.

If the testing machines are not able to test your motor, then how can you give this info?

How have you tested it then in order to achieve that conclusion?
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 12, 2006, 08:05:37 PM
I really am enjoying the discussion about unitymotors.  I will try to keep an opened mind.

Valveman
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 13, 2006, 01:15:32 PM
I didn't wanted to mean i don't belie you, I am just eskeptical about it.

You know that it is not posible to take out more energy from a system that what you put in or it already has itshelf.

So It is posible that your motor produces 4 or 5 times more energy than the electric energy you are putting in, but it has to be taking energy from somewhere else, even if you do not know where it comes from.

To make a test in an independent source I think is one of the most clever things you can do, not only in orther to prove to others, as well to double check your own test.

Let us know more info about your device, and pictures if posible.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 13, 2006, 08:00:50 PM
Jack - I understand your points.  They do weigh heavy in the equation.  But for me, what free energy would mean to the world is infinitely more important.
The questions I ask myself are - what would I sacrifice for my children?  My grandchildren??  How would the world change for them?
And what about the children and grandchildren of the third-world countries that die from the war and pollution that the oil industry brings?

I don't want my grandchildren growing up being slaves to the global corporations.  But that's what they'll be... and it'll be many times worse for them.  The days of one parent working while the other raises the kids is already gone.  The days of anyone willing to work being able to earn a living-wage are gone too.

Free energy would mean that anyone could sustain themselves.  You could grow food, purify water, heat and cool your environment, and that's just the basics.
With free energy, mankind would be free.

The world is enslaved.  Every one of us - you too.  But you have the key to the shackles.  Do you choose to use it and free us all... or do you trade it to the master for an extra drink of water?

Personally, I'd use the key and we'd all walk down to the stream for a drink.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: lancaIV on May 14, 2006, 04:10:34 PM
Dear JackH,
you are concerned about "8 Watt input",for the other hand
you write about a closed-cycle/loop-system which normally
recycles from the total-output the input-need =net-output!
So you will not have to pay 1 cent to anybody !!!
It could only become technical more complex,eventual bypass-line
and probably DC/AC or/and AC/DC transformation ! 

I please you to differ between physical and technical and really
economical barriers !!!

Sincerely
            de Lanca
 
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2006, 06:03:39 PM
Hi JackH,
then what is your buisiness concept ?
When will your device be introduced in the public market
or what is your patent number, so we can have a look at it ?
Many thanks.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Light on May 15, 2006, 01:04:02 AM
Hi JackH,
Very impressive, thank you.
Seems it's the first real OU motor ever shown on this or others forums.
I believe you have a big future with this project ahead of you, again, congratulations...
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 15, 2006, 01:16:36 AM

_GonZo_  the extra energy is comming from permanent magnets.  It's just that simple.

If you think about a permanent magnet, it in it's self is an overunity or perpetual motion machine.   After it is charged it will almost forever continue to produce a magnetic flow.   Stick up notes on your fridge forever.  There is energy flowing through a permanent magnet 24 hours a day, and in the case of rare earth magnet should continue for over 1000 years.  You can use this energy continuesly and it will allways be there.

All you need to do is figure out how to use it in a motor and you have extra energy for as long as you want it.

As for the energy that is comming from a permanent magnet, nobody has been able to totally explain it.  If you take a permanent magnet, hang it from something, stick a 50 lb weight on it.   Now take an electro magnet(8 watts of energy), do the same thing.  Let them hold this 50 lb weight for about 10 years. Now at the end of that 10 years, whitch one will have cost you the most.    Now the cost of building a permanent magnet and the cost of building an electro magnet are about the same , considering the cost of copper wire and soft magnetic iron.

The permanent magnet will hold the weight for 10 years and cost you nothing but the electric bill for the electro magnet holding the weight will be $$$$.

Now I ask you is the permanent magnet producing free energy?

Later,,,,JackH


Sorry JackH but you are confusing force and energy.

You are trying to convince us that magnets have unlimited stored energy, or can tap unlimited energy from "somewhere". "Just look at those magnets on your refrigerator," "They support themselves, doing work against the force of gravity forever, so they must have infinite energy capability." This is a simple misunderstanding of force and work. A force must move an object to do work on it. The refrigerator magnet's force doesn't move anything, and it does no work.

If you think on it for a second it is the same as saying that a rope that holds a 100Kg weight form the celling has infinite energy... because it is holding that weight for years???? think on it.

Magnetic flow and gravity flow are characteristis of all materials but they ARE NOT energy.

And magnetism from magnets, permanent magets and so on has been study for years there s not much misterious on them.

Sorry but still need a better splanation about your items.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 15, 2006, 01:20:02 AM
Your motors looks really good and really well machined.

If you are doing them hand made, congrratulations the quality looking is impresive.

Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: pg46 on May 15, 2006, 04:50:18 AM
Real nice machining on those motors JackH !

I look forward to hearing of your success in the near future with building and marketing these machines.

All the Best!
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Liberty on May 15, 2006, 04:13:06 PM
There are also more pictures of the Hilden-Brand Magnetic motors.
On this site:
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/hildenbrand.htm (http://www.keelynet.com/energy/hildenbrand.htm)
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: silverdragonrs on May 15, 2006, 06:25:24 PM
i only made it to page 9 but had to stop. the ingorance showed here in this thread is ...... (thinking of the right word)..... horrendous.... Thinking your posts out when you try to descredit something may be wise. (Agreed the same goes for trying to prove but that is not the subject)........ first to everyone who accounts that the gas companies and power companies do this or that...... BULL.... they have a lot of sway but in the end the internet has the power to overcome them and most others. The reason a small overunity device will never meet the market is because if it did it would cause a global economy crisis. I went into detail on this in another thread someplace..... The reason that a large device would reach the market is that people would not be able to build it in their garage... so they would still have to pay for its energy output.. thus keeping the well worked and greased weels of society and economy running.

as to the "overunity can not be achieved" claims. to claim such a broad statement is to show ignorance and lack of faith in man's ability to overcome. what was impossable yesterday is common practice today... and tommorrow todays impossabilities will be possable. Many overunity devices have been created. The output being greater than the "expence" input... (ill come back to this in a second) but many of these devices have not been publicaly announced or produced for one of three reasons...

number one stated in paragraph one...
number two is this... many invertors create many things that they wish the world to share. these inventors finish their work and descide to put it on the net. they post what seems to them a self explaining layout of the design and perhaps some photos or video based on their rescources. (a man building a magnet motor in a garage probably doesnt have a highres cam in his back pocket.) .... most of the time i would guess that the inventor wants to share his work and move on to the next thing... an inventors main interest is the invention.. not teaching it. he has done his part.. and now it is over. he is not interested in proving anything to sceptics. i say this because I would not care to comunicate with sceptics when all they do is doubt my claims and ask me to prove it. just think on this one.. imagine you had just spent months designing something and it worked... now some punk pops out of his momma and starts saying that you faked it.... you gonna argue or just ignore him? so because of sceptics ( not unlike some of you) most of these devices fade away and are never heard of again.

for most devices though it is simply poor presentation that causes lack of reproductablility. in the old days newspaper would not be the best way to publish anything and most any other route was too slow. now its probably due to a lack of planning and such... i have seen many designs (like the torbay motor) that lacked any real plans.. the pattent has the parts in it but lacks a description of how they were made. many inventors are better thinkers than they are planners and presenters.

lets just leave it that way... they do the brainstorming and developing... we further develope and refine it. :) it works that way and is just more fun for us. :)

as to the comment earlier about nothing stopped these devices from coming out before oil companies..... well alot has developed since then... back then i am sure that it would have been more dificult to make and publish such a device. also... tesla was (one) of the first of his kind. this area is even still relatively new ground. back before oil companies were so large technology was not very far developed and not refined in any way.

today we find ourselves looking back at some of these pioneers and saying... "man i wish he had todays rescources"

now many of you have the right outlook on things but the wrong tactic. some of you have said that you doubt the validity of these devices.... ok a skeptical point of view is a good point of view.... it helps to weed out the true frauds. but some of you have this mindset and have it in your head that it is your job to convince others of the same thing... this does only one thing. make it so that others become discouraged and nolonger willing to devote their minds to the developement and understanding of these devices. if you are a skeptic good...... but you should not discourage others or attempt to publically discredit them. if a device is a flop then it will show that in due time through experementation.

 but a mind that can look at one item from two sides is a valuable tool. to look at something that you believe does not work and say ...... if i did this or chaged that.... it might work.... that is a productive way of thinking. With people like that this group could wield some amazing results is the field of overunity.

now to the people/person who said that the heat from the wind should be concidered in the cost/input. i think you are right .. but not for the reasons that you think you are. the heat from the environment should be concidered because the output of the device would not be the same without it (exsample if the air becomes cool) but in normal cercumstances environmental variables like this do not effect the device. they may put into the device but if are never removed can be concidered free contribution. (exsample. in a magnet motor the magnets could be concidered and environmental contribution since they require no input to power. but since these magnets under normal use do not fade or lose power for VERY long periods of time then they are simply a free energy scource. (excluding finacial input to purchase said magnets)

my point is that there are many such "free" input scources. if the energy from these scources can be used properly then overunity can and will be acheived. the sun is always hot.. the wind always blows... magnets always react... gravity is always present. sometimes these sources are not always strong.. but they are free and always present.

I think this thread is just a good exsample of somebody attempting to discredit something they do not understand.

Thank you and i hope i didn't step on too many toes in my ramblings
danny
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 15, 2006, 10:15:37 PM
Danny,

First of all, it's important to make the distinction between 'overunity' and 'free energy.'

Overunity is impossible - and that's per the 'second law', something that is more credible than a 'punk kid who popped out of his mother.'  And it does make sense that energy has to come from a source - one way or another.

Free energy is another story.  Wind power is an example.  It's not overunity to use a windmill to generate electricity... but it is 'free energy.'

People have tinkered with magnets forever and a day.  I have some faith in EEs who design motors and generators - that they have pretty much tapped out on efficiency.  Same goes for transformer design.  However, it may be that new materials or some radical design might enhance generators or transformers... but I have doubts that anyone will acheive overunity... UNLESS, they are tapping into some form of energy that is not being harnessed at this time.  And then, it's not overunity - it's free energy.

There's no doubt that there is more energy in the atmosphere than we can ever use.  It's free - it comes from the sun and is stored between layers of the atmosphere and the ground... and maybe even between the ground and the core.
To think that we have harnessed electricity because we can make it by passing a coil into a magnetic field is wrong.  We should be able to catch it right out of the air.

As for the oil companies... it really doesn't matter whether it's oil or electricity... we're dealing with money.  And money will eliminate competition.
When Tesla invented AC, he was a star.  Westinghouse funded him and they got a product they could control and sell.  But when he started talking about free energy... he lost his funding, was sued out of his lab and equipment, and was later ridiculed and demonized.  Today, every kid knows Edison... and the greatest mind of all times is just a 'cult figure' to the tin-foil hat wearing internet crowd... or so they want people to believe.

You can bet your life on the fact that a free energy device would be bought and shelved to keep it out of the hands of the public.  If you think people won't use their power to maintain their power... you are crazy.  ;)
We see it everyday in Washington.

I have to completely disagree with you on free enrgy causing an economic collapse.  The only collapse would be that Exxon's CEO would not have gotten that $196,000 a day pension he just retired with.
I think that either you are a trust-fund kid, or you have just been beaten down by master for so long that you're a victim of stockholm syndrome.
Following that logic... we should all have air-meters installed on our lungs so we could pay Ken Lay for the air we breath.  Would that create an economic boom?

Honestly.  You need to lose the slave mentality and realize that you can sustain yourself without working for the man and buying from the company store.  The true leaches on society are the men who offer nothing but the inherited wealth and power that their forefathers gained by exploiting others.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 15, 2006, 11:21:55 PM
Hello _GonZo_,

I totally disagree with you.  The magnets are doing work holding the weight up.   Now the only difference is that the electro magnet can be turned on/off, If there was only a way to turn the permanent magnet on/off.  OH, I forgot, there is a way.

GonZo I really think that you wouldn't believe that this thing worked if you were holding it in your hand.  And I am not the one to convince you.  It is totally not my problem.

No I am not mad or upset with you, I just think this will be my last post to you because I think that you are too smart for your own good and I would never convince you that a permanent magnet does work.  I really think you have been over schooled on the subject.

I can tell you this from alot of hard work, a permanent magnet holds a tremendous amount of power, work, or energy, what ever you want to call it.

And yes I do all of my own machine shop work.  All the test motors was built by me.   Thank you for your nice comments.

Later,,,,,JackH


I never sayd I do not trust you, it is just that I do not understand how can you get out more power out of system that what you put in or it has itself. And I will like to understad.
So please consider your decision about not answering my posts.

A magnet holding a weight in the fridge is not doing a work at that motent and that is for sure, may be I focused on that too much, sorry for it. May be yuo are right and I am a bit over schooled.  :-\
But of course a magnet field can do work becasue you can place material in it and there will be diferent energy potencials depending on the distances, and the streng of the magnetic field and if you let it move form one point to another poin in the field then some work will produced there...

After reading on http://www.keelynet.com/energy/hildenbrand.htm and especially in http://www.cheniere.org/misc/astroboots.htm that explain how to "turn off" a magnetic field from a magnet.
Now what is puzzeling me is why that way of swiching off a magnet is not used in manny other aplications???? actually it is a very simple thing. And there is hundreds of aplications for that, not only motors...
If that works that way then I can understand more less how your motors work.
I have tryed to find more info about it and I was not able to, please Jack can you explain us more about it? or where to find more info


Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 16, 2006, 01:15:30 AM
It's seems an easy experiment to try.

Get a pernament magnet and some steel, wrap some wire and apply a DC voltage and see if the field changes.

Valveman
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: lancaIV on May 16, 2006, 04:46:40 AM
Dear Jack Hildenbrand(german ancients ?),

You write about the possibily of  the closed cycle/loop system,
so the input-by permanent magnets or with electro-magnets-
is an unimportant part,8W more or less !

You only get a functional closed cycle/loop system when
the electrical output will be higher than the electrical cycle input !
(You shall understand "electrical" not only as current input) 

In the Keelynet-pages you had been in the +50% range,
now you write about a +400% stage,congratulations !

But I have got my doubt about magnet work durability,
and there is a physical difference between work and power !

Would you me guarantee the 1000-years duration,
it would be for my own concept a great help !
But,you are only 61-years old !

Sincerely
            de Lanca

p.s.:A human who helds -hours long-something is doing "labour",
      this differ from the vector/scalar physics and the strong defined
      expressions "work/power(Arbeit/Leistung)" !
     
     
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: acp on May 16, 2006, 08:17:19 AM
Hi jack,

A very interesting thread, your work looks fantastic.

I too have thought about wether the fridge magnet is doing work or not, if I glue a block of copper to the fridge, is that the same as the magnet? is that also doing "work" or not? It seems to me that it's not. Rationally, I believe the magnet isn't doing work when it's stuck to the fridge. But instinctively,on the other hand it seems the magnet has some kind of energy! I just don't know.

But if your motor works as you say, then the magnets are an energy source.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 16, 2006, 11:11:29 AM
Quote
Hello _GonZo_,

Well one more attempt.    You menchend that a rop would be considered to do work if it were holding the 50 lb weight.   Well you are wrong again.  In order for the rope to hold the 50 lb weight up you would need to make a fisical connection from the weight to the rope, a knot or something.

Now using a magnet to hold up this weight there is no fisical connection to the weight.  Only an invisable field, that some call Gauss, however I prefer to call it a continous band of energy from the magnet.  This magnet holding up the weight with out a fisical connection is doing work.  Maybe the magnet isen't but the invisable field is.

Another way to look at it.   If you and I were working painting a house.  I picked up a 6 gallon of paint and asked you to hold it for me.  Now you did not pick it up or move it, you are just holding it up.   OK now I come back in about three hours, your still holding the paint, you never moved it just holding it up.   I just bet that with the swet poring off you forehead you would agree to me that was WORK.

You need to starting thinking for yourself and not pay so much attention to books that some proffesor wrought setting at a desk.  Yes there are definitions for energy, work, power, and all else.  Just because some proffesor give things a deffinition that does not allways mean they are accurate. It sometimes pays to think outside the box.

That fridg magnet holding up a picture is doing work.  Maybe not by your standards or some proffesors standards,  But by my standards.  One thing that is allways denied is the fact that a magnet is in itself perpetuial motion.
The magnetic field that continues to rotate around and into a magnet never stops.  You never need to input energy to it to keep it going, it just keeps on moving buy itself.  All you need to do is lasso that energy, put it to work, and you have free energy.

Hi Jack,

Lets forget the discusion about the magnet on the fridge, it is going to take us no place...
And indepently of what is correct or not it is not going to change the way your motor works.

I am not sure because you have not confirmed that this is the system you use to "swich off" the magnets in your motor, but following links I found a drawing very clarifing about it (see atachement)

Actually it is a very interesting fisics problems because it looks like it produces 3.47 times more force than the no magnets system, with the same electrical input, it looks like it is violating the second law, but actually it is not. So there is no magic involved in the experimet.

So I think that using this property looks like it is posible to encrease the eficiency of a motor or other devices.

Jack I am starting to think that you have a very interesting motor in your hands, can you enter in more detail about it please?
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Liberty on May 16, 2006, 05:59:50 PM
GonZo,

The Flynn example of magnetic force that you have there, works with attracting a ferromagnetic metal.  The magnetic balance using a coil is a delicate balance in this device.  If you use this device on a magnet based rotor, it would be harder to maintain this magnetic flux balance with the coil, because the magnetic field from the rotor passing by would vary the magnetic balance in the device when the magnet from the rotor comes around.  I believe that this is why Flynn uses this device only on a steel rotor in his motors.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Liberty on May 17, 2006, 05:41:11 PM
Jack,

Have you tried using 'netic' metal which is commonly used for magnetic shielding for your lamenated core?  I wonder if it would be of any help in the operation of your magnetic valve?

Liberty
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 17, 2006, 07:32:29 PM
Jack,

As the thread progresses (sounds like a soap opera, huh?) I see that you are indeed sincere.  I openly and wholeheartedly apologize for any bad vibes I put off in the beginning.  But with all the scams and false claims out there... I can't take all the blame.  :)

I've been interested in Leedskalnin's work for about a year now.  Though he did not reveal directly his secrets... I do believe that by replicating his work, I might progress beyond what is apparent in his writings.

The posting on Keely.net by emory - about the perpetual motion holder - is full of wild speculation about the device being alive and superconductivity.  I'm surprised that no one could see the obvious.
The device simply keeps the magnetic current flowing in the u-shaped magnet as long as the 'loop' is closed with the iron bar.  The light is a result of the collapsing magnetic field when the bar is removed.
I think Emory got off on the tangent when he assumed that electricity was being stored in the coils - but that is not the case.

There is another device that Leedskalnin describes that I think might be related to what you are doing.  This special construction improves the strength of an electromagnet.  Your device might be something similiar with a permanent magnet in the core.
I'll have to think long and hard about your valve... but magnetism can be removed with electric current... but without tinkering, I can't think of a way to do that without actually moving the wire or the magnet.

Leedskalnin described magnetic current as the flow of tiny monopoles.  A magnet channels these monopoles, and they circulate through and out one pole and back into the other.  This flow can be started, stopped, increased, decreased, etc.
So your device is actually utilizing these monopoles as an energy source.  That's 'free energy' - rather than 'overunity.'

For the people who have said that magnets do not do work... they should look inside any DC motor. ;)


Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Tink on May 17, 2006, 08:20:46 PM
I am not sure about the Emerycoil claim, it can be true but also not be true.
I haven't tried it yet but a posting on http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/exper.html made me think there may be some truth to the Emerycoil.
Here is a part from that post;

Weird Transformer Effects

All,
One you can try at home easily and it's paradoxical and bizarre!

I have a toroidal transformer with a primary and secondary. Turns ratio is irrelevant but primary is 6V to secondary 240V (ie 1:40). Now Imagine this setup (this is done with relays so every goes back to high impedance, o/c):

Primary to a voltage source:
         ______
         |       |
         |       |
         |       |
-------        ------------------------

Secondary shorted by relay:
             _____________
            |                    |
            |                    |
            |                    |
---------                     -------------------------

Assume that on primary side we have given enough time for transients to die away so that steady current in primary. We then short the secondary. FACT when we do this, no effect on primary side (as you'd expect).

WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!!

So what happens when you eventually unshort the secondary (the primary is o/c)? (Eventually could mean seconds, days, weeks, months, years ...) FACT: You see a back emf in the primary!! (Finally!)
(End part/)

I haven't tried it yet myself so can't tell if it's true what is claimed, have some of you tried this experiment?
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 17, 2006, 09:22:05 PM
The emory coil works absolutely... but it's not working in any mysterious fashion.  If you have a magnet in a coil and the magnet is turned off... the field collapses and generates current in the coil.

A transformer works the same way.  Alternating current in the primary induces an alternating magnetic field in the core and that produces alternating current in the secondary.  Current is produced once when the field is built and again when the field collapses.

I can guess about the experiment you described and say that by shorting the secondary you are holding magnetic current in the secondary... and when you unshort it, the field collapses and generates an electrical current in the primary.
As to what does or does not happen when the short is made with power to the primary... that would vary depending on the cycle of the ac input... and the resonance of the coils.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 18, 2006, 03:03:35 AM
"I can guess about the experiment you described and say that by shorting the secondary you are holding magnetic current in the secondary... and when you unshort it, the field collapses and generates an electrical current in the primary."


I'm missing something here!  As soon as you short any coil, the field collapses causing a current to flow in the opposite direction that created it and die out.  To maintain a magnetic field, current must be flowing in the coil.  Something else is going on here.

Valveman
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: jake on May 18, 2006, 04:22:20 AM
Jack,

Nice work on your motors.  They are truly works of art.  Beautiful craftsmanship.

I would like to offer to help you test your motors.

I am an electrical engineer.  I own and operate a business in southwest Ohio.  We specialize in industrial automation and motion control systems.  It appears that you probably live within a couple hours of me if I am guessing correctly.  I am willing to travel to your facility to observe testing, or you can come to my shop and use my equipment to conduct testing.  For that matter, we can meet somewhere to do the testing.

Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Liberty on May 18, 2006, 06:40:01 AM
message deleted.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 18, 2006, 08:25:15 AM
Valveman,

On your transformer experiment... the secondary isn't holding electric current that long, the resistance would cause it to be lost.  But it could hold magnetic current, and that would explain the current in the primary when you unshort it (the magnetic field would collapse.)

The emory coil - aka the Leedskalnin perpetual motion holder proves that this is possible.
The u-shaped iron is not a permanent magnet... but can be magnetized... and closing the loop will contain the magnetic field.  So we know this works - at least with the iron bars.

It's also a fact that Cu wire becomes magnetized when electric current flows through it - though the amount may depend on several factors.  Given this factor... plus the PMH experiment... the odds are pretty good that is what's happening with your wire in the secondary coil.

Pass a compass near the secondary while it's sitting there for the week... I bet it turns.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: valveman on May 18, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
Hmm I don't know and when I don't know something I try out an experiment.  Myself and another engineer are going to put together an experiment to see if and how this works.  Will give details and perhaps pics when we are done.

Valveman
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: jake on May 19, 2006, 01:22:40 PM
Jack,

I sent you an e-mail yesterday.  If you don't get it post a repy here and I'll resend.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Gregory on May 19, 2006, 07:06:08 PM
Quote
If you think about a permanent magnet, it in it's self is an overunity or perpetual motion machine.   After it is charged it will almost forever continue to produce a magnetic flow.   Stick up notes on your fridge forever.  There is energy flowing through a permanent magnet 24 hours a day, and in the case of rare earth magnet should continue for over 1000 years.  You can use this energy continuesly and it will allways be there.

All you need to do is figure out how to use it in a motor and you have extra energy for as long as you want it.
Quote
Well one more attempt.    You menchend that a rop would be considered to do work if it were holding the 50 lb weight.   Well you are wrong again.  In order for the rope to hold the 50 lb weight up you would need to make a fisical connection from the weight to the rope, a knot or something.

Now using a magnet to hold up this weight there is no fisical connection to the weight.  Only an invisable field, that some call Gauss, however I prefer to call it a continous band of energy from the magnet.  This magnet holding up the weight with out a fisical connection is doing work.  Maybe the magnet isen't but the invisable field is.

You need to starting thinking for yourself and not pay so much attention to books that some proffesor wrought setting at a desk.  Yes there are definitions for energy, work, power, and all else.  Just because some proffesor give things a deffinition that does not allways mean they are accurate. It sometimes pays to think outside the box.

That fridg magnet holding up a picture is doing work.  Maybe not by your standards or some proffesors standards,  But by my standards.  One thing that is allways denied is the fact that a magnet is in itself perpetuial motion.
The magnetic field that continues to rotate around and into a magnet never stops.  You never need to input energy to it to keep it going, it just keeps on moving by itself.  All you need to do is lasso that energy, put it to work, and you have free energy.

Hello Jack!

Let me congratulate you first! Great work! It looks like really art for me.
I never try to immagine a person like you, I never thought before a person like you is exist somewhere. I wonder, it is really good to hear from you.

The thing, what makes me so wonder is simple. I totally agree with you, with almost everything what you post here. I have got the same thinking about magnets, and the same viewpoints as you, and this is very simple.

I agree with you, a magnet is in itself a ?perpetual motion? or ?free energy?, by the way I don?t like these words, because they are became shabby due to many things.
Physics is very accurate in calculations, equations, and numbers, but not too accurate in concepts and definitions. Unfortunately concepts and definitions are the foot-stones of science.

I just write to you, because I want to give an interesting viewpoint to you.
You and Gonzo don?t agree in some points, so at first sight there is a cleft between you and others. But, actually this cleft doesn?t exist! This cleft never existed.

You said, you have motors run at 120% to 500% efficiency. Some people thinks this is very good, but others think this is not good because this is impossible. They are all right from their own viewpoints, and really all right, I can agree with all of them in parts of these things, but I personally think no one of them see what is the reality of this, and why we have two groups of people, seemingly enemies of each other, but in fact they aren?t.

This dissimilarity only caused by the difference of their incomplete (wrong) viewpoints. When one day their viewpoints are become completed, the two groups will become one.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Gregory on May 19, 2006, 07:08:41 PM
Some people refer to the efficiency and the coefficient of performance, and they are think these are two different things, but I think they are wrong. Yes, maybe it seems to be useful to separate this into two part for some reason? But in the other hand? Why do we use two different concept to define and describe only one category?
This is not a good approach, and seems to be unscientific for me. This is illogical. Two concept for one category? This approach reminds me of the lack of ability to correctly describe and understand what happens in the category. When once we all understand these things, we don?t need to refer to two concepts, because we will see everything in one.

You said Jack, you have a motor, which runs on few hundreds percent efficiency, and yes, when you include only the electrical input and the electrical or mechanical output of your machine, you are very right, all right? Within this calculation it?s really runs on 400% efficiency. But? You must see, when you include only the electric input (8 watts), and the electric output (32 watts)? You didn?t include everything in your calculation, and this is the point, which causes the people to dividing into two groups.

Well, I just want to show, when you or anybody refer to efficiency, he must include everything and EVERYTHING in the calculation. Every kind of input, and every kind of output, when there are more. In your case, you must include all of the energy closed inside the permanent magnets, and when you include it, finally you see the efficiency of you machines appear under 100%. But this is not a bad thing? This is not mean you didn?t create a great thing. This is not mean your machine isn?t capable for self running. On the contrary this means your machine really can run by itself. It?s a self sustaining machine, which runs on its own energy, but not on its all energy the machine has, because it simply can?t use all of the energy to produce useful work, because you need airgaps to make the machine running. But when you operate with airgaps, you don?t use all of the energy the magnets have. I think you can easily understand this, if you thinking about it for a while?

The calculation:
When you do this calculation, you must consider time values for the input / output, /time.

The Input.
Input 1: You put x quantity of permanent magnets in your motor. And every magnet have z amount of energy closed inside the magnet, circulating continously.
[This is a locked ?electric energy?, something like Leedskalnin said. A magnet is something like a ?special battery? The ?magnetic currents? locked inside the material somehow, and circulating together on their own tracks every time. Science calls it flux.]

Input 2: You have 8 watts of electrical input.

Now, just multiply x by z, and add the 8 watts of electrical input to it with the correct method. Now you have the overall input of your machine. And the x multipled by z is much more than the 8 watts of electric input.

The Output.
Measure the output of your machine in the same way. Include everything in the calculation.
If you attach your motor to a generator you have two different outputs. One is the electric, and the other is the mechanical. (the machine still have some mechanical output, torque)

Perhaps it is difficult to measure the overall output in some ways, but if it will be done correctly, I think finally you found the efficiency of your machine below 100%, so it is not overunity. (As a pure permanent magnetic motor itself is still not overunity, because you can?t use all the energy the magnets have. You put in x*z energy in the machine when you put in the magnets, but you only can use (x*z)-a ; where a is the ?loss? caused by the air gaps, the geometrical construction, the friction, etc.)
But It is a self sustaining machine, which really produces much more electrical energy output than you put in, and it?s a great thing! And it?s very possible, because from this viewpoint I write, it?s not violate the law of conservation of energy, and the basic laws of physics.

How the magnets exactly works, and what happens when they inducing current in a coil it is another question. I can write lots of pages about my ideas and explanations, but I think it?s useless. Most of the people usually don?t want to understand me. It doesn?t matter how many times I say the same. They usually simply refuse my ideas, and maybe they think I?m an idiot. So, I wrote these things especially for you Jack.

I hope you can undertand my viewpoint, and it can be useful for you somehow. Perhaps one day you get a new idea, what is more improve your machine.

Keep up your good work! And please create a self-running machine, and show it for us, while it?s running on its own energy.

Best wishes,
Greg

P.S.: If I have success with my permanent magnetic motor experiments, I also show it.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: JackH on May 21, 2006, 10:10:47 PM
Hello Greg & Gregory,

Well I think that you and I do think in the same ways at times.  And yes after explaining the power input the way you have, I guess I dont have overunity.  By using the power of the permanent magnets along with the electrical input, you could very easley guess that overunity may never be obtained.

However,  Most people do not like the Idea of a permanent magnet producing usable power or energy.  Most will refuse to beleive it.  So to tell them you are using them to operate a motor is like pulling teeth, they just refuse to have any part of it.

The 2 in. dia. permanent magnets in my motor are actually producing over 3/4's or more of the total energy to operate it.  The electric energy is producing the rest, so there you have it, my motor in reality is not an overunity motor.  Even if this motor is running at over %500 eficicency, actually if you added up the total energy from the magnets along with the electrical energy, it may just be breaking even at %100.

Thanks,   Later,,,,JackH
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: jake on May 22, 2006, 06:07:53 PM
Jack,

I want to repeat my offer to help/validate testing.  The only way you are ever going to get skeptics to believe is to demonstrate your motor under controlled testing that is independently verified.

I will come to your facility, you can come to mine, we can meet somewhere in the middle, whatever you want.

Name your conditions.  I only want to be able to verify the measurements, calibrate the measuring equipment, etc. to be sure the measurements and calculations are valid.  I would also be more than willing to provide a means of connecting a generator to your motor and add the required circuitry to convert the output to the proper levels to drive the motor and self run it.

There is no better way to convince people than to show them.

I am willing to sign non-disclosures or any document you want.  I don't want or need to see inside your motors.  I don't need to touch your motors.  I don't need to be alone with your motors, etc.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: JackH on May 22, 2006, 11:46:51 PM
Hello jake,

Jake I fully except your offer,  I would rather it took place in your shop, If thats OK with you.

However I do not have the small motor that produced the .021 hp at this time. It has been moved to northern Ohio and placed in a safe deposit box.

I am currently working on a much larger model that will soon be ready for testing, If every thing goes wright.   This motor I am hopping will produce around 1/2 to 1 hp, and will be much better for testing along with trying to match a generator to it.   I do want to tell you, currently I am working on building the most efficient motor I can build and at this time I am not at all enterested in creating a self running unit.  The motor needs to come first. I hope you can see that working in a small machine shop by myself, it takes time to manufacture a motor, no mater what kind it is.

I was very disapointed of the last motor I put togather.  It was a two valve motor that I figured would be the best way to go.   However I had forgotten a very importent point that metal magnetically saturates at a given point.  Well the two valves were producing over 3,000 pound of magnetic pull(gauss).  The rotor just was not of the size to handle this amount of gauss.  I am currently using some parts from this motor and some new parts to put togather a single valve motor, takes time.

I still have your phone number and will call when the motor is ready for testing.    jake I think I asked you before and never got an anwser,  What kind of equipment do you have for testing HP from a low RPM motor.  Do you have a dino or are you just going to use some kind of torque device.  You probably already know that to test HP you need to pull the motor down to a sertan rpm and at the same time messure ft pounds of torque.  How do you intend to do this.   Also have you got very accurate input power testing equipment.   This motor is a DC motor that does not continually use current. You need a meter that will read pulse DC current and give an accurate input watts reading.  In order to find out how efficient this motor is we need watts in and watts out.

The place in NC. that one of my share holders wants to have it tested has a test dino, that accually gives you a graff showing input watts and output watts along with HP through the full rpm range of the motor.  Can you do this at your shop.

When you get done, what am I going to have to take with me to show others like this message board.  It's going to need to be good stuff to prove that a motor is running over %100 efficiency.  With all the skeptics around, will they beleive your test methouds.

Later,,,,,JackH


Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: jake on May 23, 2006, 01:22:50 AM
My shop is easier for me as well, but I will do the travelling if it makes it easier for you.  I get to your part of the country on a regular basis.

How we test will depend on what size of device we will be testing, which is why I would like to examine your test setup first if possible.  I don't currently have a dyno.  We have small motors we can backdrive and generate with.  We can create a small dyno if the motor is tiny (.021 hp, for example).  There are many creative ways we can load the motor to get an idea of how much power the motor is producing.  I have all kinds of gizmos around here.  I guarantee you we can come up with something.  If we don't have it there is a large surplus electronics place in town that will.

We have equipment to collect test data to a computer that we can hook up to monitor input voltage and current if necessary.  If your pulses are very short induration (less than milliseconds) I may have to check what sample rate I can do with my current equipment.  I have an oscilloscope here, but it doesn't have storage capability, so I would like to use our computer based data collection stuff.  If the signals are too fast we will use the scope and do digital pictures.  We can collect the data and integrate the input power based on the pulse durations and magnitudes.

If your dyno is of appropriate size for your motors we can use it and calibrate it to be sure it is correct.  What you described in another post sounds perfectly valid for testing the output power.  All we have to do is verify the scale, etc.  Depending on the range required, I have a scale that is good for about 2 grams resolution up to about 500 grams.  We have other larger scales, but if the motor is very small I don't think we will have to go bigger.

I also have machining capacity.  I have a 3 axis CNC mill that is empty a lot of the time.  I can only handle non-ferrous metals and plastics, however.  If you have complex aluminum milling or plastic part that needs done I might be able to help when I have time.

>>The place in NC. that one of my share holders wants to have it tested has a test dino, that accually gives you a graff showing input watts and output watts along with HP through the full rpm range of the motor.  Can you do this at your shop.

I don't currently have equipment to do this, but we can simultaneously collect 8 analog points to computer files and create graphs from the collected data.

(The thing I like about hooking up a generator and self running is it puts all questions to rest without even worrying about numbers.  If it self runs, it is in effect putting out more power than the electrical power you are putting in.)  All the numbers in the world won't be as convincing as a motor-generator set that is self running!!!!

Since your motors are capable of several hundred percent over unity, we shouldn't have to split hairs.  If we are within 5 or 10 percent on something running 250 to 500% over unity the numbers will be statistically valid.  If we self-run there is no valid argument against what you are doing.  It is only a matter of how much at that point!

After we test, if the numbers look good to you, I will have my P.E. certify everything, and we can post the results in any format you want.  We can also have them dated and notarized if you would like.
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: Gregory on May 25, 2006, 01:34:40 AM
Hello JackH!

I think you have the best thinking to do this all along. You can.
To use only the pull/attraction force between the magnets is a very good idea, I also have it. This is the most simple and the best idea to avoid any problem about demagnetization. In this pull case the magnets will "never" demagnetize in normal use, they keep their standard magnetization level as long as it wanted.

I agree with you, the most important at now to build your best motor. The motor must come first, so just build it with serenity, doesn't matter how many time it takes. :)
But I also agree with Jake: If you once make it self-run this proves everything, and become (almost) unquestionable, and other measurements are only needed to show more accurate data and results, if you want.

And after one day, when people can see a motor runnning by itself, with public and correct measurements... It doesn't matter more they believe it or not, because they can't refuse it any longer... (Otherwise as we talked, it's not violate the laws of conservation of energy.)

Wish you a good and pleasant work!
And hope to hear your success soon.

This is very exciting...


Best Regards,
Greg
Title: Re: I don't want to sound like a jerk...
Post by: masster on July 22, 2010, 06:18:41 PM
hi
I invite you all to vote on this poll in our forum:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9432.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9432.0)
The poll is named A Morality Issue and I will certainly value your commentaries.
Because I think we should also have a look at the human factor in this "free energy" equation.