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Author Topic: Roll on the 20th June  (Read 1366744 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6885 on: August 07, 2011, 12:09:43 AM »
Quote
Crooker was toying with the inclusion of using ferrite to extend the magnetic field from a point distant enough to not make a wall at 7:00, but still provide lifting force after that rod was well past or into 7:00, and testing did prove that ferrite could extend the magnetic field BUT in doing so weakened the field and it could not lift the rod. Seems about right after this Crooker wanted to be magnetic array god and left the SR concept in the dirt.

When you play with the SR concept, you pretty much come to the conclusion that if you have an array strong enough to lift the rod (even _just_ enough working with the 1:00 attraction) it will be too strong for the rod to enter.

ok....
i know ive said this a few times before, but i'll try to review as best i can... It seems htis point is overlooked a lot.

the bottom of the array, were-in lies the "wall", should be further away from the ends of the rods than the center of the array where you need actual lift.
"angled outwards" from the curvature of the wheel, just enough o lessen the wall, so the rods both - enter into the field, and lift

This gives you the ability to soften the wall, without weakening the field.



--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, about the two-bearing EB


Touche'


i didnt think that could be done.......

excelent job sir, Now we just need some grooved bearings, or pulleys that spin as nicely as 'hobby bearings' do

if the bearing shafts are long enough to fit 3 pulleys side by side, that gives you 3 positions to mount them in, so all the rods have clearance.

i like it

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6885 on: August 07, 2011, 12:09:43 AM »

Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6886 on: August 07, 2011, 02:57:31 PM »
SmOky Quote:


Now, about the two-bearing EB
---------------------

Please ....whats an "EB"?
[i just gotta know?]

Thanks
Chet
PS
Oh, and when you guys  come up with a final design

I will build also [100 %]

And if its simple enough for me to do ,I will build a few more  at the same time and send them to members here with magnet /gravity motor experience.

No Charge


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6887 on: August 07, 2011, 03:31:59 PM »
@ramset

the term "EB" is an abbreviation for ExxoBearing. This is the bearing component originally conceived by Exxocommon, to facilitate a low-friction sliding motion of the rods.

It replaces the 'tubes' in Archer's original design.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6887 on: August 07, 2011, 03:31:59 PM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6888 on: August 07, 2011, 07:31:10 PM »
ok....
i know ive said this a few times before, but i'll try to review as best i can... It seems this point is overlooked a lot.
the bottom of the array, were-in lies the "wall", should be further away from the ends of the rods than the center of the array where you need actual lift.
"angled outwards" from the curvature of the wheel, just enough o lessen the wall, so the rods both - enter into the field, and lift
This gives you the ability to soften the wall, without weakening the field.

 I've never seen that effect work. I'm not saying it's not possible @ ALL, just that my feeble skills are not enough to realize that.
 If you could point me to a working example, it would be appreciated, but please do not do if it will delay of your complete build.
 I'm just not conversant with that concept.....yet. ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Now, about the two-bearing EB
Touche'
i didnt think that could be done.......

excelent job sir, Now we just need some grooved bearings, or pulleys that spin as nicely as 'hobby bearings' do
if the bearing shafts are long enough to fit 3 pulleys side by side, that gives you 3 positions to mount them in, so all the rods have clearance.
i like it

 Oh Pshaw!
 
 This ain't a competition, even though I may have framed it that way in the EB post for effect, and if it was you'd win hands, feet, and appendix down.
 You build, I get stoned and day dream.
 Not exactly a fair division of labor and/or build skull sweat.
 
 I thank you for your kind words and ability to see into my lackluster attempts of example and graphical representations!
 
 I've had these thoughts for a while, but didn't do anything about them as I thought not many would be interested at this late date. YOU are the only reason that they have "seen the light of post".
 Your builds teaches me things about how other view the concept.
 I just sit back and get stoned and say, "Whoa! That's cool! I wonder what would happen if you changed 'that' too. "
 
 I'll admit I gots a few more burbling around as I let my mind range free and already accept (CONCEPTUALLY) that the wheel will turn,
 Now after this post and the next which will finish the previously touched on concepts, I'd like to ask you a few questions about rods.
 
 Soon 'nuff, and thank you again for your kind words!
 

P.S. About the pulley wheels - I was thinking that these would be a LOT like the ones they use for LARGE sliding exterior doors. These usually have a tube running along the top that the pulley wheels attached to the door ride on to keep the door suspended off the ground.
Another thought was to use skateboard wheels and mill them to have a groove in the center. This is OTOH so give it a little while to percolate. ;)
 
<snip>
Oh, and when you guys  come up with a final design
I will build also [100 %]
And if its simple enough for me to do ,I will build a few more  at the same time and send them to members here with magnet /gravity motor experience.
No Charge

Ummmm....Mr. Chet.  As far as this is seen as a collaborative design, it really ain't.
Smoky builds and tests and curses, and the builds and tests again.
I haven't really built on the concept in YEARS so I would award Smoky with the honorific of designer until I would get off my lazy dead ass and do something that would even remotely challenge that.

He's the dude. He's kept the thread alive with CONTENT!

Me, I just muddy the waters like a kid dancing in a mud puddle.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 12:22:40 AM by exxcomm0n »

Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6889 on: August 07, 2011, 09:50:55 PM »
EXX
Seems like you have input in this [to the untrained eye]?

You're a builder albeit a "mellow" builder,a builder none the less ,and speaking of "less" ,I recall you being quite skilled at utilizing available "stuff"

A skill for doing more with less [most impressive].

Anyhow, speaking of weird and Newtonian [or Non}.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU&NR=1&feature=fv

Chet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6889 on: August 07, 2011, 09:50:55 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6890 on: August 08, 2011, 04:29:26 AM »
@ Exx

i like the skateboard wheel idea better than the sliding door rollers.
because skateboard wheels have better bearings.

although picturing this in my mind, i have the idea that it would require some skills and probably specific machinery, in order to make a perfect cut like that into the wheel.

there's gotta be some bearings, with flanges, or grooves in the way we want them. Even if pulleys ended up being the way to go, it needs to be something people can just go out and get, or make with little effort.

thats why i keep returning to building it with wood.
wood is relatively cheap, or can be found for free as scrap.
you can cut / shape it any way you need to.

but to have 1,000 people trying to cut grooves into skateboard wheels,..
that seems like a daunting task, that i myself wouldnt want to deal with

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6891 on: August 08, 2011, 06:51:46 AM »
@ Exx
i like the skateboard wheel idea better than the sliding door rollers.
because skateboard wheels have better bearings.
although picturing this in my mind, i have the idea that it would require some skills and probably specific machinery, in order to make a perfect cut like that into the wheel.
there's gotta be some bearings, with flanges, or grooves in the way we want them. Even if pulleys ended up being the way to go, it needs to be something people can just go out and get, or make with little effort.
thats why i keep returning to building it with wood.
wood is relatively cheap, or can be found for free as scrap.
you can cut / shape it any way you need to.
but to have 1,000 people trying to cut grooves into skateboard wheels,..
that seems like a daunting task, that i myself wouldnt want to deal with

I think we should be turning cartwheels if even 10 people are thinking about milling skateboard wheels. ;)

K then...I said gimme some time to percolate and it's been minimal so all I have at the moment is to use a stack of roller blade wheels.

The come in sizes ranging from 59mm to 100mm and usually are sold w/ a bearing per wheel.
So, buy a smaller one with the bearing, 2 larger ones w/o a bearing, glue the 2 larger ones to either side of the smaller one w/ the bearing and "Viola!" you have a cupped bearing surface that will keep the rod with a decent ball bearing for about $5-7 per.

Or..........

You say you like working with wood, so you get hardwood dowel, mill out the center track w/ a dremel or drill w/ a reamer bit.
Mount it on a bearing 1st and you use that to help you mill a symmetrical groove but it take s longer.

Gimme a little more time to dwell on the ghetto engineering and I'll figure some other things out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6891 on: August 08, 2011, 06:51:46 AM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6892 on: August 08, 2011, 08:11:06 PM »
Duplicate post.

But with the idea above w/ roller blade wheels, you can forget the middle wheel and just glue the large wheels to the outer bearing race to save more $$$$.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6893 on: August 10, 2011, 02:46:58 AM »
im thinking tiny spools..

something like what you find inside a magnetic cassette tape,
or a heavy duty sewing machine thread spool..
find bearings that fit nicely..
or make a plug to fit the bearing into that fits the spool.

just trying to expand a bit on the sliding door roller thing.
mechanically, it is exactly what we want,
but frictionally, it is going in the opposite direction

the EB as it stands, three, four, five, and possibly more bearings for very large rods - is the most frictionally efficient method i have experimented with so far.
And i think that is one of the most important things to this whole device, is that the rods are able to slide easily and freely.
This is "step two", directly after step one, which is " that the WHEEL spins easily and freely / balanced"

without that, you're dead in the water before you put a single magnet on.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6893 on: August 10, 2011, 02:46:58 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6894 on: August 10, 2011, 05:28:39 PM »
SmOkey
Quote:
im thinking tiny spools..

something like what you find inside a magnetic cassette tape,
or a heavy duty sewing machine thread spool..
find bearings that fit nicely..
or make a plug to fit the bearing into that fits the spool
=====================
Nice !!
How big do you feel you'd like to have the wheel?

Would a Clanzner size build be feasible ,Table Top?[for Clanzner kit purposes}?

Thanks
Chet

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6895 on: August 10, 2011, 10:44:34 PM »
im thinking tiny spools..
<snip>
.........is the most frictionally efficient method i have experimented with so far.
And i think that is one of the most important things to this whole device, is that the rods are able to slide easily and freely.
This is "step two", directly after step one, which is " that the WHEEL spins easily and freely / balanced"

without that, you're dead in the water before you put a single magnet on.

K then, we go back to the original-ish design w/ a few small amendments.
This is the least amount of fricative surface, even though it may not seem like it.
EDIT: If you get bearings with really THICK outer races, perhaps a groove could be milled into that outer race. Not a deep one, but enough that it would keep the rod from dragging on the wheel face.

The attached pic is (finally) in the correct orientation for wheel rotation and will only have 2 to 4 fricative surfaces per rod during rod movement.

As to the "step 1" and "step 2" thing, I think that it would be duplicate effort to balance the wheel, add the EB's and rods, and then have to balance it again.

I agree that balance will be a very important factor in this, but if you're going to have a 2-faced wheel with face mounted bearings, you really can't balance it without already having the EB's mounted as they are what keep the faces together, correct?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 12:08:55 AM by exxcomm0n »

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6895 on: August 10, 2011, 10:44:34 PM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6896 on: August 11, 2011, 12:16:24 AM »
Quote
B - 5.) Use the wheel as the electrical generator instead of transferring its output to an external generator using a belt (I think this is how Crooker said his was built way back when)-

The more direct the connection, the less the losses, and in this case any loss could be the difference between success and failure.

As I said before, we already would have moving magnets if the concept would prove to turn by itself, so why not use them as that's what a DC generator does?

A coil closed on 3 sides like the UUC from woopy would be a good candidate to reap a charge from the rod end magnets passing through it from 1:45 to 5:30-ish since this is where the magnets would have the greatest speed of travel.

But maybe this would be just too complicated for some in tuning the cost of generation, and it would have many aspects to fiddle with which could lead to long testing and design trials.

If instead you mounted a classic DC generator on one side of the upright leg of the wheel support with its shaft going through the support leg to a gear on the end that engages gear track attached around the edge of one of the wheel faces.

So, you mill 3 slots in one of the upright supports. One that the gen shaft can go through and use different gear sizes attached to that shaft to change the gearing ratio for the most effect possible without stopping the wheel, and the other 2 slots to mount the gen so it can use a variety of gears to change the gearing ratio.

Whew! Finally done.....so far.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 06:41:13 AM by exxcomm0n »

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6897 on: August 11, 2011, 12:20:25 AM »
@ smoky

Now that I got all the noise finished, I have a rod question for you.

It seems way back when Crooker said that the rods should be 1/3 length greater than the wheel radius.
This makes sense as then you basically have a 2/1 lever for gravity to grab on to.

Is this your take on things?

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6898 on: August 11, 2011, 06:45:39 AM »
@ chet

the clanzer cnc rigs are not out of the question due to their small size.
there have been quite a few attempts at this using CD's
one of which, i have seen a video of its (alleged) successful operation.

the clanzer rig certainly has more mass than a CD, which would work to its advantage.

which leads me to omy reply on Exx's question...

@ Exx
          this ratio of rod length to wheel diameter, was studied extensively in my early investigations of the device. Yes, what archer says is true, the archemedian factor gives you a great advantage over the moment of inertia of the wheel-mass.

the exact proportion is not important, at least not as a broad spectrum covering all wheel sizes/masses...
what you must keep in mind is that as you lengthen the rods, you also increase the distance of travel they must perform. This is not obvious at small intervals, (almost counterintiutive) but as you get several inches away from the wheel,
the difference in offset mass of the rods, becomes less effective.
Thus, you have to move them further to achieve the required imbalance in momentum vs magnetic repulsion (wall).
In and of itself, this is a catch-22 situation, as a larger distance of travel requires a greater flux to mass ratio (stronger magnets).

all in all, i would suggest hat the rods are longer than the diameter of the wheel, to some degree. The optimum length will depend on a combination between the flux to mass ratio, and the ratio of the total mass of the wheel to the offset mass of the rods.

its not as complicated as i make it sound...  basically you want the rods to weigh enough that the small distance you are moving them, is sufficient to turn the wheel, at the offset distance from the center, when they are at full extension.  all of these factors are proportionally interrelated, so changing one has an effect on the others.



and at the end of the day, whatever rod length/mass/distance travelled that you choose, MUST fall within the limitations of the flux to mass ratio of the magnet pair. This is the ratio between the mass of the rods, plus the magnets, plus any added weight attached to the moving rods to the magnet pair's ability to lift said mass a given distance. This means that for any given magnet pair, you have a maximum mass and an associated maximum distance that it can be vertically lifted by the repulsion field.

i wrote extensively on this subject in previous pages, so i wont blab on about that right now...  i will however revisit it later on, once we get to the final stages of assembly. It is key to understanding how this device works.
-------------------------------------------------------------------












Offline The Eskimo Quinn

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6899 on: August 12, 2011, 06:10:42 AM »
I have moved the video of the mayernick to a new page and cut the second video on to the end, i have alos removed the political comments (for speed of viewing) I packing to move out of the city to my property in the country, will be spending much time constructing the dwelling but will be building a workshop for various devices and fitting a mayernick drive for power on site whether the team that has it currently finishes first or not, i will be constructing a high power unit for the house using 20 x 12's for the track mags, the rotor and gen will simply be a cut down wind turbine, so i do not need to do anything other than plug it in to the batteries.

For those still working on the rod design dont forget it can "only run slow and heavy for power, speed will always create centrifuge to throw the rod aganist the firing direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEwzalCFdKw

NB just contated by the team who have all parts ready to go for assembly for rptpr testing and no i cant see what i am typing on this site because the screen sits at the top, and by the way what the fuck is wrong with this site it takes forever to load and even just to scroll down the page, and only this site/
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 08:51:48 AM by The Eskimo Quinn »

 

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