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Author Topic: Roll on the 20th June  (Read 1311369 times)

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6870 on: August 03, 2011, 02:48:36 AM »
Exx
So we can have a group Hug now??

Ummmm...no.
Don't you know anything about communicable diseases?

{Cept Wilby, He does that "reach around" thing [something about his Religion?}!=}

I rest my case. :D

Did You look at the Magnetman thread ?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10840.msg296849#new

 I believe its another means to the same end?
Gravity Spinning and "repulsion" !!
Chet

Actually I did a while ago but within the 1st page I found:

Hi, Its me Tom,

I removed all device videos because things were rapidly changing for  the better. 
 <snip>
My model has great speed and torque and can be classified as a motor rather than a toy.  I plan to show all "AFTER A PATENT IS GRANTED"
In event any corporation is interested please contact me with an open wallet. Cash first (in a police station) then you get to see it and play with it.  Keeps everyone honest.
Tom

....which I've seen too many times before to give it much time or concern.

If it's real we'll know when he gets his patent. Until then it has the same status as Crooker's SOG for better or worst.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6870 on: August 03, 2011, 02:48:36 AM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6871 on: August 04, 2011, 03:44:03 PM »
@ exx

credit for the invention/concept is not mine to take.
After what i felt to be an adequate research attempt, the only thing close to this device i found in history was something in Da Vincci's notebooks, using springs instead of magnets.

Unlike the hair-dryer contraption, the wheel appears to be an Archer original, and unless otherwise demonstrated, the credit should go to him.

As far as the mechanics / physics, proof of concept, and the whole new area of technology this will open the door to, this has been a collaborative effort on the part of many people. I dont claim any credit there either.

If i can take credit for anything, it would be in pointing out that the importance of what this means,  goes far beyond the toy that represents it...



Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6872 on: August 05, 2011, 06:54:42 AM »
@ exx

credit for the invention/concept is not mine to take.
After what i felt to be an adequate research attempt, the only thing close to this device i found in history was something in Da Vincci's notebooks, using springs instead of magnets.
If i can take credit for anything, it would be in pointing out that the importance of what this means,  goes far beyond the toy that represents it...

Sounds a bit like the protestations I made when the EB nomenclature started to be bandied about, and look what those got me. ;)

Truth be told I'm gonna be referring to the wheel as the "SR" (Smok[y] Ring) instead of the "SOG" (solistically originated gimmick) from now on.

Say, I gots some posts (actually a bunch) that's gonna be proposing some ideas for/about the SR and I'd like to ask your comment of/on them. I'll be doing some experimentation of them when I figure how to ghetto-fab them into a decent representation.

Lemme know man :D

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6872 on: August 05, 2011, 06:54:42 AM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6873 on: August 05, 2011, 06:58:12 AM »
As was threatened earlier, here is the post w/ actual wheel content, which I will no longer refer to as the "SOG", but instead as the "SR" (acronym for
Smoke(y) Ring).
I started this post much earlier as it would seem from my previous posts, but a browser crash ate my previous content to post and I haven't felt like redoing it until now.

I have decided if I'm going to be the rabid poster I and others have proved to be of late, I'd post some actual wheel content/questions/observations.

So, instead of the arm chair theorizing I usually do, I'm thinking about actually doing a build (toy scale) to see if any of my thoughts/suggestions having to do with the wheel have any basis.

(A) To do this, I'll be stealing concepts from a number of OU posters namely:

1.) The mondrasek flipper switch dealy - Remember this one? It started on this thread and then moved to a new thread which enjoyed popularity for a good bit.

2.) The UCC/DEK coil (woopy) - For those not familiar, this was a thread about using a "U" shaped coil for drive of an electrical motor ultralight. I'm wondering if the advantages and gains found over a "normal" coil for motor operation will also show up when used for electrical generation.


(B) The ideas I'd like to try, or have bandied about before are:

1.) The solid axle pivoting on it's ends - this removes (most) of the rod offset issues having to do with the "spindle on a post" axle design, or maybe just embedding a bearing in the wheel faces (more below) and using the bearing assembly to hold the wheel faces together.

2.) Changing the shape/type of the array and perhaps introducing mechanics - Most have accepted the arc shape of the array and tried to influence the magnetic attract/repel by effecting the output of the array, but have not considered leaving the array alone and using a variety of shapes and/or mechanics
to achieve the 7 to 1 rod lift action.
Replacing PM (permanent magnet) 1:00 and/or 7:00 o'clock array(s) with EM (electromagnetic) and using them to try to negate the "wall"?
Leave the array alone and replacing the rod end magnets with electromagnets?
Use a lever to "swing" the array and remove the wall while retaining the array effect?
Replace the arrays with wheel mounted rod effecting solenoid assemblies?
The issue with these are having the SR generate enough electricity to energize these approaches and still produce surplus electricity so it's a OU machine and not just an interesting kinetic sculpture.

3.) The "2 faced wheel" - While this may be seen as another dig @ Crooker, my actual meaning is to build 2 wheel faces with the rods, and mechanics for them  sandwiched between the twin wheel faces. Twice the support, twice the rotating mass, and much more of a PITA to tune or repair/change (maybe...this will be addressed later).

4.) Refining the "EB" design - I'll defer to Smoky as being the one to take this from pipe dream to product, all I did was day dream about roller coasters. But as I've kept revisiting that dream on and off over time and might have something that will take it from 4 bearings per assembly to 2 bearings per assembly while still retaining its rod torsion ability.

5.) Use the wheel as the electrical generator instead of transferring its output to an external generator using a belt (I think this is how Crooker said his was built way back when)-
In a perfect world the concept has rod magnets being used as leveraged weights to keep the wheel imbalanced, and in doing so has magnets that are moving all the time on at least one plane. Why not use those moving magnets as that's what a PM generator does? I know that Lenz will have an effect and it has to be less than the leveraged weight action, but why transfer that extra energy (if available) using a lossy transfer method and having to account for that too?
I've always thought that the closer generation is to the action that causes it, the less action is lost from transfer.

So many ideas, so little chance of anyone reading any of them due to a huge monster post. I'll break them down into a post per stolen/original idea above to facilitate easier reading and debate of them.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 07:22:03 AM by exxcomm0n »

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6874 on: August 05, 2011, 07:16:01 AM »
Quote
A -1.) The mondrasek flipper switch dealy - Remember this one? It started on this thread and then moved to a new thread which enjoyed popularity for a good bit.

This was an interesting diversion and brought the introduction of new mechanics into the attract/repel lift effect.

A download of the idea from the original author is here:

Gravity_Motor.zip
[ http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=97 ]

...and the thread is here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5141.0

When you look at those docs you'll see that the author removed the rods and was using magnets captive with a certain range of motion to produce the imbalance effect. It's a novel idea and does have redeeming qualities, but I still like the inclusion of the rod as its that much more weight imbalance when the repel/attract effect occurs at 1:00 or 7:00, and it uses gravity to turn the switch "off".
If you use the rod/switch, you can get away with using just the 7:00 or the 1:00 array to get the lifting effect.
I mean like using an electromagnet exactly at 6:30 and 12:30 to lift the rod and keeping it there with the switch and not using a solid array stretching from 6:45 to 7:45 repel and one 12:45 to 2:00 attract to do so.

Another feature that I'm thinking about but not looked that far into is perhaps the 7:00 to 1:00 action could use the flipper as the stop of the rod lift effect by launching the rod past the point of switch lock and letting gravity set the switch so there is no direct impact during the upward movement with an EB or other stop limiting that upward movement. Instead there is a small impact after the rod reaches maximum lift and then uses gravity to set the switch as the rod falls from maximum lift.

This would be cool since the rod travels past the stop point to set the switch, you get that much more leverage at the lifting for a moment before setting the switch and after 3:00 the rod is pulled to it's maximum allowable travel by gravity opening the switch.
There will still be stops to keep the rod from falling out, but they won't have to endure the violent lift action that may have torn Smoky's runner apart.

About as clear as mud, eh?

Anyway, check out the pic to see if the idea translates better visually than textually.
You'll see that it is not a direct theft of the mondrasek mass switch, but the base is there and although I haven't done any other research into it, I wouldn't be surprised that it could be addressed as "prior art" from some previously granted patent if that were done.

Right now it's the "flipper dealy". :D
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:28:33 AM by exxcomm0n »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6874 on: August 05, 2011, 07:16:01 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6875 on: August 05, 2011, 01:29:59 PM »
Exx
Nice ,Feels like the old days ,SmOky is right ,this is like a crowbar in the door
we've never been this way before!

A game changer !

--------------
Exx if I may say one thing [maybe 2]
Anger.........
Its a pill you take expecting it to make other people sick...but it only makes "YOU" sick  [and it will]

Same thing with Hate!

The mind that brought us here ..............I like to think there's more
There..........Don't hate the messenger and love the message!!

TOLERANCE


I love the message ,,,I see things differently now.
  Thanks to SmOky I have a better "Grasp" ,And I also find myself looking at other devices with a more Discerning eye.

"A game changer"
          :o

...............................

Exx
My daughters Having a baby today {I hope  36 hrs so far no baby..}

I'll be studying your recent post  ,

Thanks
Chet

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6876 on: August 05, 2011, 05:29:18 PM »

This was an interesting diversion and brought the
introduction of new mechanics into the attract/repel lift effect.

Right now it's the "flipper dealy". :D


One idea that user Wattbuilder came up with is to use a magnet traveling within
a coil with an electrical switch shorting it as a kind of a self-powered delay or
damper or brake mechanism. It wouldn't be a perfect mechanical latch. But it
would allow standard electrical components and methods - wire, switch and
maybe a slip ring connection to be used in for the actuation function.

It doesn't get rid of the entire actuation delay either but could be tuned.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6876 on: August 05, 2011, 05:29:18 PM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6877 on: August 05, 2011, 07:02:22 PM »
<snip>
Exx if I may say one thing [maybe 2]
Anger.........
Its a pill you take expecting it to make other people sick...but it only makes "YOU" sick  [and it will]
Same thing with Hate!
The mind that brought us here ..............I like to think there's more
There..........Don't hate the messenger and love the message!!
TOLERANCE
I love the message ,,,I see things differently now.
Thanks to SmOky I have a better "Grasp" ,And I also find myself looking at other devices with a more Discerning eye.
"A game changer"
          :o
...............................
Exx
My daughters Having a baby today {I hope  36 hrs so far no baby..}
I'll be studying your recent post  ,
Thanks
Chet

Ain't no hate goin on, but I'm still cutting Crooker no slack, and the "TOLERANCE" train ran outta coal a lot earlier in this thread.

As to the "game changer", Oh hell no!
It's not a game changer as the idea has been out there for about 3 years waiting for anyone to look at it again, and it still don't mean anything until someone is able to use it successfully. I just warped it ever so modestly.

My best wishes for your daughter and grand-baby during this time. I hope that everything goes uneventfully and swiftly!

One idea that user Wattbuilder came up with is to use a magnet traveling within
a coil with an electrical switch shorting it as a kind of a self-powered delay or
damper or brake mechanism. It wouldn't be a perfect mechanical latch. But it
would allow standard electrical components and methods - wire, switch and
maybe a slip ring connection to be used in for the actuation function.
It doesn't get rid of the entire actuation delay either but could be tuned.
:S:MarkSCoffman

I've been thinking along the same lines and will post the clarification of that idea and where it applies in the previously posted linup, but thanks for your input and the concepts it brings to the discussion!

I'll have to digest them and let them stew as from what I've previously shown, I need to let ideas stew for a while before they gel into something coherent.

Keep commenting please if you have insight or ideas!

Now, back to our scheduled programming............

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6878 on: August 05, 2011, 07:03:36 PM »
Quote
A - 2.) The woopy coil - For those not familiar, this was a thread about using a "U" shaped coil for drive of an electrical motor ultralight. I'm wondering if the advantages and gains found over a "normal" coil for motor operation will also show up when used for electrical generation.

Sorry it took so long to get this post up as I had to go through the thread found here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6727.0

...to make sure I remembered the outcome correctly. It's only 4 pages but woopy (Laurent) is not a native english speaker and as good as his english is, there is still a little work to deduce the complete meaning of it. My failing, not his.
This thread generated great interest and had a lot of people participating, but for some reason on the 4th page woopy posted some questions and the thread....died.
I have no clue why all interest suddenly went away as it was a neat concept that seemed to have a lot of promise and experimentation left to look at.

Now around the same time there was a post on OU that had the same subject as this link I think:

http://changingpower.net/articles/plane-crash-kills-team-who-embraced-game-changing-motor/

....referencing this patent:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100084938.pdf

Now if you take a look at both the woopy thread and this patent you'll see that they both have the same root premise of using a coil that envelopes the magnet it effects (or that the magnet effects the coil in generation mode) with some purportedly great effects in the amount of electricity produced when used as a regenerative motor.

This patent seems to say that there are 2 major factors that allow this type of behavior:

1.) Coil winding - this patent winds the coil in a very non-standard fashion that is difficult to duplicate, but might show some of the interesting effects claimed in the patent.

2.) Motor pulse controller - Now this is the "black box" part that seems to allow the configuration in the patent to achieve the output/gains reported in the patent.

The woopy thread seemed to be heading in the same direction until it died its untimely death due to disinterest I guess. I was very interested in this thread, but did not post to it as my level of electronics knowledge is really REALLY basic, and these guys (woopy, Yucca) were playing w/ programmable Audrino controllers and stuff.

WAY outta my league!

I am but a simple stoner that mashes the PlayDo (child modeling "clay") of others ideas
together in hopes of seeing something different or new, and in this case the mashing of ideas ONLY (there has been no testing outside of the most very basic to demonstrate Lenz law and stuff) comes to using the Regenerative Motor and Coil (RMC) winding type in the woopy coil form.
Also, the RMC modular design is a pretty tasty feat of engineering, me likes!

Now, to be clear, I'm only interested in the (re)generative properties of the RMC design, and both the patent and the woopy thread seem to say that there is a benefit to having the coil effect 3 magnets at a time instead of just one passing through the center.

How can you have 3 mags effect the coil without the torsion effect messing w/ you and making it all crash into a horrible mess?

Well, if you took static rods with (bigger?smaller?) magnets on the ends extending to the same maximum travel as the moving rod mounted every hour or so around the wheel (every 15 min. if it could drive that!) and have that provide a "steady" trickle current that is pulsed by the rod end magnet 6 times per revolution it might all add up to something worthwhile.

The implementation of this idea is waaaaaaaaaaay down the road as you have to get the wheel turning before you think about how to tap any excess energy.

I'm just doing them in the order I posted.

No pics in this post as both the thread and patent are rich with them.
Check 'em out!

<next slide please>

EDIT: Now that I think about it a little more there could be an easy jig to build that you could make a bunch of single wire flat coils with and then just stack them by flipping each layer 180 degrees and joining them at the axle or the outside of the coil.
Just a thought.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:09:59 PM by exxcomm0n »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6878 on: August 05, 2011, 07:03:36 PM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6879 on: August 05, 2011, 07:54:40 PM »
Quote
B - 1.) The solid axle pivoting on it's ends - this removes (most) of the rod offset issues having to do with the "spindle on a post" axle design, or maybe just embedding a bearing in the wheel faces (more below) and using the bearing assembly to hold the wheel faces together.

Now if you go back a few pages you'll find that I was peddling this idea to Smoky, who had already engineered in a different direction and so was not that interested, but I think it still greatly lessens the rod interference issue at the hub of the SR.

Go back and look, it's all there. If you have questions after reading that I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Anyway....here's an ultra simple graphic to make clear what I'm proposing in the posts that doesn't have a pic yet.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6880 on: August 06, 2011, 10:02:05 AM »
ok so,.. after reading the recent activity here.. i pondered the situation, got stoned out of my gorde, and pondered some more...

Finally, i decided to come up with some sort of standard, replicatable design. So that people building this have a common ground to meet on, regardless of what magnets and arrays ect, they decide to use.

so... heres my first attempt at a public design, intented for easy construction/ replication / testing/ what have you..

« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 10:31:17 AM by sm0ky2 »

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6880 on: August 06, 2011, 10:02:05 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6881 on: August 06, 2011, 11:53:02 AM »
Sir,
What does EB Stand for?
You are most definitely going about this the right way!
Excellent !!

Thanks
Chet

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6882 on: August 06, 2011, 06:22:24 PM »
Quote
B - 2.) Changing the shape/type of the array and perhaps introducing mechanics - Most have accepted the arc shape of the array and tried to influence the magnetic attract/repel by effecting the output of the array, but have not considered leaving the array alone and using a variety of shapes and/or mechanics
to achieve the 7 to 1 rod lift action.
Replacing PM (permanent magnet) 1:00 and/or 7:00 o'clock array(s) with EM (electromagnetic) and using them to negate the "wall"?
Leave the array alone and replacing the rod end magnets with electromagnets?
Use a lever to "swing" the array and remove the wall while retaining the array effect?
Replace the arrays with wheel mounted rod effecting solenoid assemblies?
The issue with these are having the SR generate enough electricity to energize these approaches and still produce surplus electricity so it's a OU machine and not just an interesting kinetic sculpture.

Whew! Kinda long winded on this one so it'll be fun to expand upon, but lets take it point by point because it helps keep me from getting lost.

Now when talking about SR issues the most major has proven to be that 7:00 wall, as the same magnetic repelling action that is supposed to lift the rod from 7:00 to 1:00, is the same magnetic field that makes an extended rod bounce at 7:00 and stops the wheel.

Crooker was toying with the inclusion of using ferrite to extend the magnetic field from a point distant enough to not make a wall at 7:00, but still provide lifting force after that rod was well past or into 7:00, and testing did prove that ferrite could extend the magnetic field BUT in doing so weakened the field and it could not lift the rod. Seems about right after this Crooker wanted to be magnetic array god and left the SR concept in the dirt.

When you play with the SR concept, you pretty much come to the conclusion that if you have an array strong enough to lift the rod (even _just_ enough working with the 1:00 attraction) it will be too strong for the rod to enter.

Quote
Replacing PM (permanent magnet) 1:00 and/or 7:00 o'clock array(s) with EM (electromagnetic) and using them to negate the "wall"? -
This approach makes a bit more sense to me as using electromagnets there is no wall unless energized and they can be triggered at exact times so when used as the 7:00 array they can help push the wheel in clockwise rotation while lifting the rod.
The electromagnet can be shaped to do both when using a pulse just after TDC of the 7:00 array.
This all depends on the wheel generating enough energy to supply this pulse 6 times per revolution and not stall the wheel rotation.
You can get away with the pulse providing lift momentarily if you couple this idea w/ the flipper dealy.

Quote
Leave the array alone and replacing the rod end magnets with electromagnets? -
This would have the same advantage as the EM array above, but the cost might be much less.
Triggering of the EM would seem to be the hardest part of this approach and it still has the prerequisites of generation to cope with.

Quote
Use a lever to "swing" the array and remove the wall while retaining the array effect? -
What if you left the array at that nice hefty lifting strength and used a lever to move that array away from the wheel at 6:30 and let the array's own weight bring it back into a normal position at 7:15-7:30 using both the magnetic field and kinetic force to lift the rod?
I know, with the introduction of any extra moving part there is cost, but maybe that cost is not enough to keep it from working?
If we touch back on the whole E-gypt-ing Fulcrum episode, if we learned anything it was that a smaller weight moving over a large range of motion could move a much larger weight over a much smaller range of motion.
Weights and ranges all depended on the length of the lever on either side of the fulcrum.

Way back in the thread I proposed this idea and it still seems like it might help.

You'll see in the attached pic that pegs on the wheel face trigger the lever to move the array out of the way and when the peg slips off the end of the lever it goes back to its original placement from the reset weight finding its lowest point.
Yes, there are costs and tuning issues with this type of idea using Permanent Magnets, but maybe it would allow the wheel to turn.
This one does not need a flipper dealy as it's closest to the PM builds tried so far.

I dunno.

Quote
Replace the arrays with wheel mounted rod effecting solenoid assemblies? -
This again is a blast from the past that goes quite a bit with the data mscoffman brought to the thread recently.
Since I'm suggesting electromagnets, I figured that this would come soon after.
If you mount a solenoid on the center of the shaft you can mount your (singular) rad magnet in the rod center and have the solenoid lift it @ 7:00 without any external arrays whatsoever.
Again, it comes down to the cost of the effect as to whether that would work or not.
Again, a combo w/ the flipper dealy.

Anyway, take a minute, see what's in it. ;)

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6883 on: August 06, 2011, 06:55:27 PM »
Quote
B - 3.) The "2 faced wheel" - While this may be seen as another dig @ Crooker, my actual meaning is to build 2 wheel faces with the rods, and mechanics for them  sandwiched between the twin wheel faces. Twice the support, twice the rotating mass, and much more of a PITA to tune or repair/change (maybe...this will be addressed later).

Dang, rest for a second and somebody comes along and snakes the idea out from under ya!
He drew pics and everythang!

[J/K Smoky ;) ]

Anyway, he seems to have adopted a couple of the flimsy concepts I was able to chase around my 3 remaining brain cells.

I REALLY like the "Star of David" EB design! That's some innovative thinking!

I'm on board w/ most of what he proposes, but the post after this will have a couple of different views on the 2 faced wheel and how it can help a few other mechanisms.

On to the next!

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #6884 on: August 06, 2011, 08:03:38 PM »
Quote
B - 4.) Refining the "EB" design - I'll defer to Smoky as being the one to take this from pipe dream to product, all I did was day dream about roller coasters. But as I've kept revisiting that dream on and off over time and might have something that will take it from 4 bearings per assembly to 2 bearings per assembly while still retaining its rod torsion ability.

Well, to start this off,  I again want to congratulate Smoky's "Star of David" 3 bearing EB design as it proves he's been a percolating on this one for a while and doing it well!

Being the slimey "one-upsmanship" type that I am, even though I REALLY like Smoky's design, some time a while ago I ate some moldy rye bread and "ergot" a new-ish idea to rip off.

But as I promised, the 2 bearing EB.

By using 2 pulley wheels with concave wheel surfaces you can attatch the wheel faces together with the pully axle that goes through the wheel faces, as long as you don't bind the rod with the pulley wheels, it should do O.K. with the rod torsion effect previously mentioned in the thread and still allow the rod to travel freely with little drag.

The attatched pic should display the idea fairly well even without labels.

Does it seem like it would "fly"?

 

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