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Author Topic: Roll on the 20th June  (Read 1366890 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #165 on: May 03, 2008, 03:09:57 AM »
Well   I had some questions like how heavy will it be    how much vibration[will i be able to put it in grandmas up stairs with out shaking the house] but i guess your going thru it know so ill wait  PS i like aluminum very easy to sand cast   Chet  OH also how noisy [sound enclosure ]

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #165 on: May 03, 2008, 03:09:57 AM »

Offline Rusty_Springs

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #166 on: May 03, 2008, 03:29:46 AM »
Hi Eskimo Quinn
By your last statment it sounds to me like you don't know if it will work or not but even if it doesn't as I said its been fun taking the ride as it was.
I was thinking if you had a disk at 45 degrees with one weight being a magnet on the top and you let it go it will act much the same as a upright wheel, you drop it from 1 it goes around to about 10 so if this setup was on a pivit point then you could rock it back and forth easy so now you let the weighted wheel drop from 1 it reaches 7 where there is an electromagnet the electromagnet is switched on its the same pole as your magnet weight and pushes it up rocking the wheel on its pivit point so now the weight goes down again its at 1 again and drops to 7 where a second electromagnet is switched on repelling the magnet wieght and pivitting the wheel again so again your wieght is at 1 and again drops, as long as the wheel keeps rocking up and down on its pivit point the magnet weight will keep spining around.
Take Care All
Graham

Offline badassdjbynight

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #167 on: May 03, 2008, 03:47:40 AM »
Thanks for the clarification on the yaz copy.  It was my misunderstanding as I thought you meant copy of the actual device not copy of the explanation of how it works.

As for my speed question let me be more specific and get to the heart of my question.  And this might apply more to the other speculations on the site than your actual device - since you have not verified some of those details.  If there is a weight sliding around inside a tube which much travel across to return to the 1 o'clock position and thus restart the cycle, I see that this motion would take some time.  Meaning the wheel wouldn't move very fast.  Weights moving around to keep the wheel moving to me looks more like water hitting a waterwheel to make it turn.  In that example speed depends on scale.  The large the device the slower it would spin because the farther the weights have to slide.

If the wheel did move fast at some RPM wouldn't the centrifugal force take over and prevent the sliding weights from doing anything other than staying at the outer edge of the tubes?

I know "fast" and "slow" are not specific terms but are very vague.  But as a reference point did your "toy" version rotate relatively fast (say anything above 60 RPM) or slower?  Do you jump start it by spinning it as fast as you can by hand or by just setting the weights a certain way and letting it do it's thing?

I hope my comments don't sound like a debunker.  They are just questions as I am curious.  The truth will eventually be made clear and we can all keep our fingers crossed.

In one of his last post he says that the satellite is the key.. that at ALL times it's being pulled towards the earth to fall.  True for the satellite because of the gravity caused by the massive mass of the earth.  In order to not fall it has to be traveling fast.  Could Archer be devising a way to create a pull towards the center of the wheel?  Probably not - too literal.  That type of force (towards the center) doesn't cause rotation on this kind of wheel.  It doesn't cause rotation or forward motion on the satellite either.  Aside - In order to work the satellite had to be placed in orbit which means at a specific distance from the earth and traveling at a specific speed.  (Too fast and it flings into space, too slow and it falls to earth.)  To create the orbit a LOT of energy had to be used first.  Say you tried to harness energy from the satellite's movement.. that would cause DRAG and it would slow down and lose orbit.  Again maybe I'm being too literal with the satellite analogy.

I think archer is suggesting a constant force not towards the center of the wheel but offset from the center (like gravity).  Gravity is constant.  But still in order to rotate on its own there has to be a weight offset from one side of the wheel to the other.  Not sure how to make that a constant offset.

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #167 on: May 03, 2008, 03:47:40 AM »
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Offline The Eskimo Quinn

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #168 on: May 03, 2008, 04:00:04 AM »
@rustysprings, sounds like i dont know if it will work??????????? second machine not first.

if you give a jumbo an upsale of ten times will it fly, no new tech, same parts ten times bigger, will it fly????

doubt anyone can answer that, but the original jumbo still flies does it not, i do not have this issue going through my head for two reasons, built it once already and secondly, this is hardly the size of a hydro dam from which the small one originated.

power and torque have nothing what soever to do with rpm. again i will get you to get off your bum and go out into the real world and see this in action, not use newtonian math.

the most powerful saw in a metal shop is a cold saw, it turns so slow you can still read the writing on the blade, speed and rpm never equal torque, weight can equal torque though.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #169 on: May 03, 2008, 04:19:07 AM »
Quote
make no mistake, people are writing that i am claiminmg to be some saviour, i come to destory what is, not fucking save this pile of shit you call civilization.
this planet is fucked, i simply want a new one.
 

i have gained a newfound respect for your efforts Archer. and i am begining to understand your intentions.

i think my biggest problem is my personal conflict with things i understand and have performed, vs. what is being said about those things. (unrelated to this wheel)  they have nothing to do with the wheel we are discussing, but it still sets off huge red flags in my head, and im having a hard time setting those aside....

that being said..

i think what you are trying to describe (at least in the way i understand it) is the difference between weight and momentum.

weight
on a 500ton wheel, if you add a 10gram coin to one side. it will turn with the force of :
10g* (height)* (9.8m/s)

Momentum:
the power acted upon anything trying to STOP this now moving wheel
is equivalent to the speed of the wheel * 5 tons, 10 grams.
so the actual power factor will be::    the total Mass of the wheel / the Radius

what you are saying about your wheel actually makes a lot of sense, the only thing im not quite grasping.
[which is also the only thing you haven't given us fully yet] is the method of transfering this imbalance.....



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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #169 on: May 03, 2008, 04:19:07 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #170 on: May 03, 2008, 04:19:24 AM »
ARCHER what time is it now[where you are] do you ever sleep? its 10 17pm where I am USA just curious   Chet PS i've seen you at 5am my time on this thread

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #171 on: May 03, 2008, 04:21:59 AM »
ARCHER what time is it now[where you are] do you ever sleep? its 10 17pm where I am USA just curious   Chet PS i've seen you at 5am my time on this thread

you'd be suprised how many of us are chronic insomniacs   :P

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #171 on: May 03, 2008, 04:21:59 AM »
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Offline The Eskimo Quinn

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #172 on: May 03, 2008, 04:29:16 AM »
20 mins after midday on saturday, yes i get up at 5 am here and at night when i'm on its 5am there, i am currently inside coz i am dumping photos as the cam is full, and need to take pics for the upload tonight and to keep going so thats why i am on and off today.

Offline Rusty_Springs

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #173 on: May 03, 2008, 04:45:29 AM »
Hi All
Its 20 to 1 here and I like Eskimo Quinn are in australia
Take Care All
Graham

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #173 on: May 03, 2008, 04:45:29 AM »
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Offline badassdjbynight

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #174 on: May 03, 2008, 04:46:10 AM »
Crap!  I was editing my prev post to clarify it and the site timed out so I lost it.  So I'll try to remember it.  I'm not trying to monopolize this forum.. so this will be my last post for a bit and I'll let others chime in.

I want to move the discussion forward and not back. 

<quote=The Eskimo Quinn>But you must remember this is the missing point, go back to the poor old satellite trying to hit the earth but can't quite get there, be being pulled "all" the time to fall. unfortunately if you get this i won't confirm it until the 20th, but you need this key.</quote>

Archer's comment suggests a constant force to make it spin.  A pull toward the center of the wheel wouldn't cause it to spin, but one offset from the center would.  Gravity pulling on a weight is such a force at some positions.  From 12:01 to 6:00 the force (alone) would cause a clockwise rotation and from 6:01 to 11:59 it causes a cc rotation.  Other weights around the wheel counter balance it out and even out the force.  One of his hints was that's why there's 3 (not 4 or 2).  So the uneven number creates an non-balanced situation.  There are either 2 weights on one side (12:01-6) or the other (6-11:59).  That's what I was calling an offset...  If the three weights were left alone to find their own balance what position would they end up in?  One at the top and the other two at the bottom?  Maybe that's a clue.  But this is all basic wheel physics right? and I apologize if that's already been covered elsewhere.  Keeping the weight offset always on the 12:01 - 6:00 side would create a constant force.  But I'm not sure it can be done with sliding weights.

BTW.. I don't think I'm using newtonian math as I don't think I'm using any math.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2008, 04:52:57 AM »
assuming the 3 were evenly spaced. they would end up with one pointing straight up, and the other two
spaced at like 8 & 4 (or something like that, didnt feel line triangulating a circle tonight, so an approx. will have to do...)

like a "peace sign"

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2008, 04:52:57 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2008, 05:02:48 AM »
Bad    somehow I think your no math is good in this context [IMO] seems like common sence will prevail in Archers wisdom   good night all [except ARCHER] you sir have a world to change   much work to do      will be thinking of you in my prayers [to whomever] cares   Chet

Offline oak

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2008, 05:18:10 AM »
OK, here's another message in an email from Archer:

"the disks are only disks, instead of a solid piece, as i had them in hand, they do not slide, a permanent magnet the same or larger than the disks is on each end."

I (Oak) followed up with these questions seeking additional clarification:

1. Am I reading it right:

(a) the disks are attached to each end of the rod we see in the photo (and they don't slide on the rod);

(b) they happen to be disks rather than a solid piece only because that's what you had readily available; and

(c) attached to the group of disks, like a cap, will be a disk magnet about the same diameter or slightly larger.

2. And may I ask: does it matter what the disks are made of; does it only matter what weight/density they are. In other words, can they be aluminum, steel, stainless steel, etc., and either attracted to magnets or not.

Archer then replied as follows (I made some minor typo corrections but did not change anything):

"yes to everything, except the disks (weights) cannot be magnetic, an electromagnet is designed only to repell the same pole, the steel would be attracted to the electromagnet regardless.  stainless would be perfect but expensive for a trial unit unless you have some.

"my previous machine had solid magnets not disk on each end, i am trying disks myself this time even though they are far less efficient, i am adjusting the thrust and distance to compensate.  you must attach or have them together under pressure or independently fixed.  they cannot afford to have a bump effect or impact from any movement.   they can be apart, but the closer a weight is to the end the greater the power."

---------------

I (Oak) note that this suggests to me that an electromagnet is placed somewhere around 7 o'clock for each tube, to repel the rod and its weights & magnets toward 1 o'clock.

(Perhaps the electromagnet is triggered just as the tube is passing, and this both pushes it upward and gives a bit of extra rotational oomph.)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 06:12:47 AM by oak »

Offline mental breakdown

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2008, 05:20:44 AM »
Maybe someone here can help me understand something.  A long time ago I read that it is inertia and centrifugal force that keeps a a satellite in space. (Is this true?)  When  I asked Archer about the devices potential application in motor vehicles...Archer emailed  me prior to posting - (hope this is okay Archer - oh ya, i used spell check ... you must have been in a hurry.   :)

Archer wrote:

"Ok, to answer the questions in order, the application to motor vehicles with be the most difficult, but by use of battery charging techniques and the fact that it keeps running, means that whilst you are shopping, at work or stopped at the lights it keeps charging the batteries, provided they have a run time of around 2 hours themselves I cannot see why it would not work, the problem is more inertia, gravity being the power source will have to fight the inertia of the moving vehicle, however a simple wind scoop to air catchers on the end of each arm should compensate as the air velocity is actually greater than inertia in moving vehicles." 

Archer (or anyone with the knowledge) - The problem I'm having is relating the analogy of the satellites to this earthbound device.  If a satellite relies on inertia and The Archer device must fight it in the application of a vehicle.  It would be conceptually a much different principle.  Though I do not fully understand these concepts, I'm trying.  If inertia can be used in space to help something remain in motion perpetually, then gravity under the right conditions should be able to keep something in motion perpetually.  Unfortunately, I will probably get the classic response of Newton's Laws and the Law of Thermodynamics, but either way I'd like to know.

I'm just trying to comprehend some of these ideas in a way that makes sense to me.   ie (What is the opposite of inertia?  ??? )

Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott



Another thing I was wondering.  Is it correct that if you had very heavy bunch of weights on a large balanced wheel and you could get it spinning quite fast... it would only take a constant "tap" every now and then to keep it going?  Sort of like a heavy barrel on a flat surface if you start it spinning you could keep it going with just a stick if you could tap it frequently.  If that is true then that may be the method Archer is stealing the energy from the machine as he knows how to give it a constant tap yet utilize the energy by the insignificant resistance that the generator is stealing from the unit.

Thanks again...

Offline The Eskimo Quinn

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Re: Roll on the 20th June
« Reply #179 on: May 03, 2008, 05:27:15 AM »
ahh the real tricky stuff, the peace sign effect is a newtonian illusion, draw a line from the tip of eac arm to the next, it is a triangle with no offcentre of gravity but vertical through the axel. one of the great head spins of all time.

ever wonder why the egyptians used triagles? much easier to put a stick in the sand and use a string to draw a big circle so why pyramids not cones? (dan akroyd would have been proud :)

a cone has no functional centre, where when knowing the base size, one can know the area of the entire object from a single side, why traingulation not grids? a triangle is vastly more fuctional than a square, triangles are the building blocks of squares and pyramids are the building blocks of cubes.

just thought i'd through that triva in, but a triangle has no centre outside vertical, when placed vertical. it is an illusion, YET, don't forget the weights!!!

go back to the basics, imagine you have already got your environment, your balanced wheel, you have already magically found out how to get the wheel to turn itself (or waited until the 20th) what could make moving the weights easier or cut your load down, would a planet with lessor gravity help? or can you do that here in a fashion?

you need to get away from the basics you already know about the wheel.start adding new components, the key is not a word whispered to the machine so it must be a device of sorts with parts.

Peace anyway. :)

 

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