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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Feynman on April 18, 2008, 06:41:22 AM

Title: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Feynman on April 18, 2008, 06:41:22 AM
While waiting for parts, I decided to start on a Bedini motor with the help of a friend.  These are some pictures of the construction.

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4097/p1000644ea4.jpg)
No power tools in the ghetto

(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1945/p1000654de7.jpg)
ABEC-9 skate bearings. 

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1592/p1000655pe9.jpg)
What a lovely shade of puke

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3789/p1000665zx6.jpg)
Okay, so we do have power tools .

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1308/p1000666na1.jpg)
Neodynium magnets, 345HP

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8191/p1000675ih6.jpg)
Upon advice of my friend, I put the ferrite rod inside a piece of copper brass pipe. Brilliant idea right? Only after I tried wrapping the coil did I realize that the brass was shielding the ferrite.  ;D

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8417/p1000683xe4.jpg)
The coil that could never be.

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5696/p1000677dh0.jpg)
The world iz more like sovieet russia ebery day


Once I rebuild the coil, I should be able to get this thing to spin.  Once I manage that, I will wind a nice trifilar coil to try to replicate some Bedini radiant energy effects.

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 18, 2008, 09:06:20 AM
nice to see another person working on a replication.
is that tube copper or brass? it looks brass in the picture but it could be from the camera or my monitor.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Feynman on April 18, 2008, 09:11:09 AM
Oh you are right, it is brass

I'm pretty sure that it was doing some shielding.   I'm thinking of winding the coil directly on the ferrite instead. . .
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: helmut on April 18, 2008, 09:17:28 AM
Hello  Feynman
Good Luck with your Bedini.

Thats the moment that i take my Bedini Parts out of the Box and whipe the dust out of it.

It ist very interesting to see how you will make your Core (coil) in practice.
Until now i had welding rods in use.
But the next core i will try to use cheap and simple iron Nails.
Cut the big end and put them togeteher as a zylinder shaped big core.Fixed with some
Tesla tape,?hh tesa tape ;D, and grind the ends to a suitable form.
Maybe someone will be inspired by that.

How you will do the switch?

helmut
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 18, 2008, 09:21:38 AM
@feynman

thanks for the clarification on the brass/copper.
i was asking because a friend of mine and myself had discussed the same thing once, winding the coil on a copper tube instead of plastic. we were thinking of using the copper tube as sort of a "third" coil. we never got around to it and your post made me think of it again. maybe i will get ambitious and wind up a new coil using a copper tube as the form.
thanks again
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Feynman on April 18, 2008, 09:33:34 AM
Hey Helmut,

The core I am using is ferrite with initial permeability of 2500, so it is like a really good iron nail.  Your idea sounds good.... what were the welding rods made of?

As for the switch:   For the first test, (just to get the motor to spin), I will use a power transistor and a Hall IC.   If I can get the motor to spin up, then I will rebuild it for real with the trifilar winding.   I was going to replicate the following Bedini circuit:

(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7598/p1000685smallzl6.jpg)

Posted under Fair Use.  (C) 2007 Cheniere Press from Free Energy Generation by John Bedini and T.E. Bearden. 
For educational/non-profit purposes ONLY.  Commercial use / redistribution prohibited.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: powercat on April 24, 2008, 04:10:46 PM
Hi feynman
nice work
I'm look at making one soon
is this a good site  http:// http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html#x
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: bourne on April 24, 2008, 05:10:44 PM

 http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html#x (http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html#x)

Yes it is... One of the best.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on April 24, 2008, 08:01:23 PM
The Bedini "motor" is not so much a motor as a battery charger. The claim is that one battery is charged from another (via the machine), and you wind up with more energy in the charged batery than there was in the source battery. The fallacy is that the voltage on a battery indicates its state of charge. This is not so if the battery is damaged. The Bedini machine damages the target battery by overcharging it. (That is, by exceeding the specified maximum charge current).

Although the battery terminal voltage seems to indicate a full charge, if you discharge the damaged battery through a load you will not get anything like the specified amount of energy for an undamaged battery.

If you look at the instruction sheet that comes with the battery, it usually says that the battery can be damaged by overcharging - and this is exactly what the Bedini machine does.

I like the concept of this scam, because a big complicated machine is used to divert attention from the very simple fact that a battery is being damaged by overcharging. This clever misdirection even fooled the Mythbusters when they tested a Bedini machine. They just watched it operate until the source battery went flat, then said "Myth Busted". They never admitted to investigating the target battery at all, although I am sure that their expert knew all about it.

PMM Dave
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: bourne on April 24, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
@PMM Dave

Your post shows that you know very little about Mr Bedini's machine. I am not an expert but I do know that;
1 - It does not use current to charge the battery
2 - I have yet to damage a battery with my "WORKING" Bedini machine. and have charged them over 14 volts
3 - The machine is not complicated, in fact, it is beautifully simple.
4 - The "MythBusters" Hit-piece did 'NOT' have ANY magnets on the wheel that was turned by the pulsed motor. Go and watch it again then do a little experiment for me. Wind a coil, any size coil with an air core, connect it to a load and a volt meter then wave a piece of aluminium over it and come back and tell me/us what the meter read.

If your the sort of person that believes what the television is telling you, then your in the wrong forum matey-boy. If your prepared to open your eyes and wake up to the world, start doing your research.

The Bedini machine as it stands in the open-source world is NOT COP>1 but it does regenerate 'dead' sulphated lead acid batteries that a 'normal' battery charger cannot charge
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on April 24, 2008, 10:03:11 PM
So, if it does not use current to charge a battery, how DOES it charge the battery? Batteries work by storing an electrical charge, and charge = current * time. (Q = It)

Also, energy = charge * voltage   (E=QV)

From this it follows that energy = volts * amps *  time (E = VIt)

The total charge in a battery is usually measured in amp hours, and the total energy in watt hours.

If you have charged a battery to over 14 volts, does that not imply that it IS damaged? A good battery will only go up to 13.8 volts (measured open circuit off load).

How do you know that you have never damaged a battery? Have you measured its capacity (in amp hours), and if so, how?

I am not saying that the Mythbusters machine was an accurate copy of a Bedini machine - it clearly was not. I am just saying that they did not address Bedini's central premise, which is that the target battery can be charged with more energy than was contained in the source battery. Correct me if I am wrong, but Bedini does not claim that his machine will run forever.

Sulfated batteries can be somewhat regenerated by applying a pulsed charge current. This has been known for many decades, and the Bedini machine certainly does this. The machine is basically a mechanical way of generating current pulses. There are, of course, any number of other ways to do this.

Also I have not and do not make any representations whatever about my qualifications - it doesn't matter who I am. It only matters what I say!

PMM Dave
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on April 24, 2008, 11:47:18 PM
@PMM Dave,

It is a oversimplification to say that a lead acid battery stores a charge.

When you discharge a LAB:

The positive plate contains PbO2 and reacts with sulfuric acid to form lead sulfate.
The negative plate is Pb and reacts with sulfate ions to form lead sulphate.

When you charge a LAB:

With energy input the lead sulfate is broken down and with oxygen from ionized water, lead oxside is deposited on the positive electrode and lead is deposited on the negative electrode.

So a LAB does NOT store a charge, it stores an chemical substance(s) on the plates.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on April 25, 2008, 12:25:41 AM
Yes, this is true. In fact there are a number of electrochemical reactions going on, what you have quoted here is an overview of the process.

When the battery is overcharged, some particles of lead oxide become detached and fall off the plates, reducing the capacity. These particles eventually turn into lead sulfate.

When a battery becomes sulfated, a layer of lead sulfate covers the lead oxide, again reducing the capacity and increasing the internal resistance. An intentional overcharge causes particles of the sulfate to fall off, exposing the lead oxide below and improving the performance of the battery. However, it can never get back to its original capacity because some chemicals have fallen off the plate and are no longer available to react. Pulsed charging is more effective at causing particles to fall off the plate because it causes outgassing without causing overheating.

You could say that pulsed charging causes either damage or rejuvenation, depending on if the battery was sulfated before you started.

In any event, each molecule of lead oxide gives out or receives the same number of electrons. So if you put x number of electrons in, you can get at most x electrons back out again. There is no way to ever get more charge out than you originally put in.

Of course, to measure the amount of charge, you have to integrate the discharge current over time. Trying to use open circuit voltage to determine the charge state works only for a good battery at a known temperature. Most advanced battery chargers on the market today have the ability to do this. I personally like the Triton, there are many others.

To the Bedini enthusiasts, I say use the machine to charge a target battery and then measure the amount of charge that is in the target battery by discharging it through a Triton or similar. This charge will always be less than the charge supplied by the source battery.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 25, 2008, 12:59:23 AM
The Bedini "motor" is not so much a motor as a battery charger. The claim is that one battery is charged from another (via the machine), and you wind up with more energy in the charged batery than there was in the source battery. The fallacy is that the voltage on a battery indicates its state of charge. This is not so if the battery is damaged. The Bedini machine damages the target battery by overcharging it. (That is, by exceeding the specified maximum charge current).
wrong, the bedini "motor" doesn't exceed a batteries maximum charge current. it uses very little current at all. it does however use large "voltage spikes". i'm guessing you have never built one.

If you look at the instruction sheet that comes with the battery, it usually says that the battery can be damaged by overcharging - and this is exactly what the Bedini machine does.
how do you know this? have you built one and done such an experiment? can you show us your data?

I like the concept of this scam, because a big complicated machine is used to divert attention from the very simple fact that a battery is being damaged by overcharging. This clever misdirection even fooled the Mythbusters when they tested a Bedini machine. They just watched it operate until the source battery went flat, then said "Myth Busted". They never admitted to investigating the target battery at all, although I am sure that their expert knew all about it.
i like the concept of your scam, talk about something you obviously have no clue about, spout something about the mighty mythbusters, which was an absolute joke of an attempt at a "bedini sg" replication and top it off with it only matters what you say.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: helmut on April 25, 2008, 01:06:12 AM
So, if it does not use current to charge a battery, how DOES it charge the battery? Batteries work by storing an electrical charge, and charge = current * time. (Q = It)

Also, energy = charge * voltage   (E=QV)

From this it follows that energy = volts * amps *  time (E = VIt)

The total charge in a battery is usually measured in amp hours, and the total energy in watt hours.

If you have charged a battery to over 14 volts, does that not imply that it IS damaged? A good battery will only go up to 13.8 volts (measured open circuit off load).

How do you know that you have never damaged a battery? Have you measured its capacity (in amp hours), and if so, how?

I am not saying that the Mythbusters machine was an accurate copy of a Bedini machine - it clearly was not. I am just saying that they did not address Bedini's central premise, which is that the target battery can be charged with more energy than was contained in the source battery. Correct me if I am wrong, but Bedini does not claim that his machine will run forever.

Sulfated batteries can be somewhat regenerated by applying a pulsed charge current. This has been known for many decades, and the Bedini machine certainly does this. The machine is basically a mechanical way of generating current pulses. There are, of course, any number of other ways to do this.

Also I have not and do not make any representations whatever about my qualifications - it doesn't matter who I am. It only matters what I say!

PMM Dave

Hello PMM Dave

As i know gives a full loadet battery a 14.4 Volt to the meter without load.
A ordinary charger supplies about 15,6V to the Batterie

I will stay with this thread to learn about the Bedini.
Albert and others will supply us with results.

helmut


Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on April 25, 2008, 01:17:50 AM
The large voltage spikes create large current spikes according to the celebrated equation:-

V = IR

These spikes are of short duration, so the mean current is, as you say, low. However a large amplitude short duration spike is perfect for damaging a battery! You are correct in your guess that I have never built a Bedini machine. I am guessing that you have never measured the current spikes in one, nor the amount of charge available from the (damaged) battery.

I know that overcharging damages a battery from the manufacturers instructon sheet, from personal experience, and from the experience of others. Trust me, they don't like it up 'em!

I am glad that YOU like my scam, but there is a major problem with it. I don't get to take money from anybody!

But seriously, the burden of proof for an extraordinary claim lies with the claimer. In this case, the exraordinary claim is that more charge goes into the target battery than came out of the source battery. The proof would be very simple - just measure it. Yet neither you nor anybody else on this forum has done so.

So what we have here is an extraordinary claim without any proof whatever, let alone extraordinary proof.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 25, 2008, 01:22:09 AM
i have "tried" to measure them, digital multimeters show random results, analog ammeter shows little to no current. my batteries have never been "damaged" by this process, in fact i have recovered batteries that would no longer accept a battery chargers "charge" and restored a PDA/cellphone battery that would barely run for an hour to minimum of 6 hours use. i know the current is minimal because i can grab the + output in one hand and the - output in the other and i remain among the living.

build one and measure it yourself, they are cheap to build.
another that wants to tell us how to build it but won't do it himself.

yes we do have an "extra ordinary" claim here. that would be you, who has never built a bedini machine "claiming" that a bedini machine damages the battery by overcharging it. without any proof whatever, let alone "extra ordinary" proof.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on April 25, 2008, 01:59:40 AM
The way to measure the current pulses is with an oscilloscope, using a current probe. Simply pass the battery wire through the probe and clamp it shut. Then you get the complete current waveform. Be sure to use the type of probe that responds down to DC, otherwise you will not be able to measure the average current. Tektronix make excellent current probes and 'scopes.

A DMM will give random results because sometimes it samples on the pulse, other times on the gap between pulses. An analog meter *should* give the correct average curent, but some meters get confused by large amplitude pulses. Also, you might damage the delicate meter movement. A 'scope is definitely the way to go here.

As to the charge stored in the battery, you need an accurate measurement by discharging it in a controlled manner through a load. Anecdoatal stories about cell phone usage hardly qualify! A Triton battery conditoner, available at any hobby store, will do this just fine.

The observation that you are still alive even though you touched the wires is very gratifying to all of us, I am sure. But it hardly constiutes a scientific measurement of voltage, let alone current!

My claim is not extraordinary. I am simply claiming that overcharging a battery will damage it. Does anybody dispute this? Ordinary claims only require Podunk proof - just go to any battery manufacturer's web site to check this claim out.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 25, 2008, 02:04:41 AM
My claim is not extraordinary. I am simply claiming that overcharging a battery will damage it. Does anybody dispute this? Ordinary claims only require Podunk proof - just go to any battery manufacturer's web site to check this claim out.

i call bullshit here you CLEARLY claimed the bedini was responsible for damaging batteries by overcharging... and i quote
If you look at the instruction sheet that comes with the battery, it usually says that the battery can be damaged by overcharging - and this is exactly what the Bedini machine does.

which IS extra ordinary since you have admitted to NOT having built one...

The way to measure the current pulses is with an oscilloscope, using a current probe. Simply pass the battery wire through the probe and clamp it shut. Then you get the complete current waveform. Be sure to use the type of probe that responds down to DC, otherwise you will not be able to measure the average current. Tektronix make excellent current probes and 'scopes.

A DMM will give random results because sometimes it samples on the pulse, other times on the gap between pulses. An analog meter *should* give the correct average curent, but some meters get confused by large amplitude pulses. Also, you might damage the delicate meter movement. A 'scope is definitely the way to go here.

As to the charge stored in the battery, you need an accurate measurement by discharging it in a controlled manner through a load. Anecdoatal stories about cell phone usage hardly qualify! A Triton battery conditoner, available at any hobby store, will do this just fine.

The observation that you are still alive even though you touched the wires is very gratifying to all of us, I am sure. But it hardly constiutes a scientific measurement of voltage, let alone current!

blah blah please see the second paragraph of my previous post for my suggestions on measurements, scientific or otherwise.
are you suggesting a PDA/cellphone IS NOT a load?
lol, i can't believe you would even say "scientific", you who wont even do the simple experiment...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Ren on April 25, 2008, 06:41:33 AM
@ PMM Dave. You are correct in saying that over charging ANY battery will damage it, even if the damage may not be visible at first. And I would even go as far as to say that overcharging a battery with the monopole or other associated circuitry will cause eventual failure too, although I havent yet proved it for myself.

I hope, however, that you are not saying that the use of Bedinis circuit will damage the battery full stop, whether manufactures guidelines are adhered to or not, as I would have to disagree with you there. And yes I have multiple replications that prove the monopole does indeed charge a battery, and is more than capable of over charging it in terms of resting terminal voltage. While I have no scope as to measure my output spike I have confirmed it to be well over 100 volts with a neon bulb.

It should become obvious to anyone who has bothered to study the device that the battery is not being charged in a conventional manner. I have a trifilar monopole which pushes 1000ma quite comfortably on the front end, of which only 100ma reaches the charging source. Both batteries are of the same size and condition (aka new) and yet the charging battery charges up SIGNIFICANTLY faster than it should on that input. The charge stored can be confirmed with repeated load tests, (which I have done) something very few people bother to do. All my results point to the charge battery charging up as well if not better than any conventional charger can manage to do. All of this from an equal voltage source. I can neither confirm nor deny that more charge goes into the charging battery in the simple replications I have done, because as you are probably aware it is quite difficult to measure the storage of a batteries capacity accurately. I can confirm this however.

There is no way the battery should charge that fast with the amount of current that flows into it. And it holds its charge. And it has been holding its charge consistently over a significant time (over 300 load tests). Only time will tell as to whether the battery is slowly being damaged. Oh and by the way, most lead acids, depending on make and model, have a maximum charging voltage of 14.5 and a floating voltage in the low 13's. Like you say its different for every model.

I think we are all getting what you are saying, so perhaps the thread should be directed more towards its original post...

PS Good to see you having a go Feynman. As Im sure you are aware the neos arent ideal. If you have trouble with it try increasing your air gap to reduce saturation of your core. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on April 26, 2008, 12:13:17 AM
Yes, you all pretty much get what I am saying. It looks like the Bedini machine is easier to build than it is to test. In order to test it one would need to:-
1) Define exactly what it is supposed to do
2) Design a protocol to test what it is supposed to do
3) Build a machine and run the test

Over the several decades that the Bedini machine has been around, I have seen many people build replicas but I have never seen anybody perform any of the other steps above. I spoke with Bedini himself way back on 11/16/87, when he was at the 16220 Orange Ave, Paramount address. I am not sure how long the Bedini machine had been around at that time, but it was certainly many years. At the time he said he was about to move to Idaho (don't know if he ever did), but was not willing to demonstrate his machine. He had also given pictures of his machine to Tom Bearden. Anybody know what became of his brother Gary?

I am not averse to building a machine if steps 1 and 2 can be completed first. But otherwise, I would wind up in the same position as everybody else who has built a machine, that is unable to demonstrate either success or failure in a conclusive manner.

For step 1), I would propose the following definition:-
The Bedini machine is supposed to charge a target battery from a source battery. The total energy in watt hours available from the charged target battery exceeds the total energy in watt hours removed from the depleted source battery.

Would you agree with this definition, or, can anybody come up with a better one? My suspicion is that it will be difficult to reach consensus on this point, but we can certainly try.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Feynman on April 26, 2008, 06:39:20 AM
PMM:

Post some pics of an experiment or else go back to your armchair.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: UncleFester on June 04, 2008, 06:18:52 AM
Yes, you all pretty much get what I am saying. It looks like the Bedini machine is easier to build than it is to test. In order to test it one would need to:-
1) Define exactly what it is supposed to do
2) Design a protocol to test what it is supposed to do
3) Build a machine and run the test

Over the several decades that the Bedini machine has been around, I have seen many people build replicas but I have never seen anybody perform any of the other steps above. I spoke with Bedini himself way back on 11/16/87, when he was at the 16220 Orange Ave, Paramount address. I am not sure how long the Bedini machine had been around at that time, but it was certainly many years. At the time he said he was about to move to Idaho (don't know if he ever did), but was not willing to demonstrate his machine. He had also given pictures of his machine to Tom Bearden. Anybody know what became of his brother Gary?


Hey Dave. I don't know much about the Bedini either except that it appears to work as a de-sulfator. My simple SG motor with 20" bicycle wheel charges only at 700mA and yet the specific gravity tests show that the battery is being charged and NOT OVERCHARGED. It simply de-sulfates the battery and leaves it in a state as if you charged it correctly with a normal constant current charger BUT the Bedini system does it with only a minuscule amount of comparative energy. Also batteries I could not charge with a normal charger I can easily charge with the Bedini SG and the gravity reads the same as when it was new (1.300). It takes time to do this on these heavily sulfated Trojan T105's I am using, but load tests and gravity reading show that it is an effective charge. So something about the very fast high voltage spikes does something to the battery, but does not appear to damage them. In fact they appear every bit as good as they were new. I have not tested the two battery setup to see if both batteries end up with higher energy than they started with but I will do that soon after I finish testing the Carbon generator I am working on.

Groundloops charger circuit does this just as good though and I have recovered another 4 of these Trojan T105's using his circuit and his does it faster. I will try adding more coils to the SG and see if that speeds things up, but I will use Groundloops circuit for recovering batteries for the time being.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: alan on June 04, 2008, 12:08:27 PM
PMM:

Post some pics of an experiment or else go back to your armchair.
Eh, he is right, he seems to be educated in the field. Without the points he mentions, it is just playing and speculating. A good testplan is important, _if_ you want to proof something.

still, good luck :)
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Creativity on June 04, 2008, 01:03:23 PM
Eh, he is right, he seems to be educated in the field. Without the points he mentions, it is just playing and speculating. A good testplan is important, _if_ you want to proof something.

still, good luck :)
i agree also,the test plan should be made and executed with right tools.I guess all of people working here on solid state machines will admit also,that  any productive measurement of the spikes and what it brings, should be done on an osciloscope and not on any multimeter what so ever.Multimeters are designed to work either with DC or sin wave, NOT with spikes.Besides if they are digital they have a discrete sampling time and as it was said here a spike has a big chance of being faulty digitalised...I studied computer networking recently and we had tonnes of signal processing math to deal with...Use the right tools that are designed to perform tests u r making,no discussion on that.

One of u mentioned PDA battery that was flat and then could run longer than before.It is a convincing proof of extended capacity(if usage of the PDA was as it was before).And yet of an extended capacity when comparing to a nearly dead battery.So not comparing to a new battery capacity,that might possibly drop if used in Bendini charger or may possibly increase.Agree?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: tinu on June 04, 2008, 06:23:15 PM
Welcome Dave.
Sometimes dogma prevails here. Good posts, good points. For those who didn?t get it yet, Bedini is just another too long-living scam. Letting it posted is enough. Arguing doesn?t help. Wasting time and money is something you almost need to show for ?the religion?. Been there, done that. It?s simply stupid. Hang around; you?re welcome!

Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: UncleFester on June 04, 2008, 08:30:40 PM
Welcome Dave.
Sometimes dogma prevails here. Good posts, good points. For those who didn?t get it yet, Bedini is just another too long-living scam. Letting it posted is enough. Arguing doesn?t help. Wasting time and money is something you almost need to show for ?the religion?. Been there, done that. It?s simply stupid. Hang around; you?re welcome!

Cheers,
Tinu

How is this a scam? Lol, it recovers batteries very well. Are you saying it's a scam because of the claims of overunity or what? Have you built a unit and seen how it recovers old batteries? I don't get your point......
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on June 04, 2008, 10:35:45 PM
Yes, this does recover dead batteries to an extent. It does this by applying a pulsed high current to the plates, thus causing some of the lead sulphate to be removed. So a battery with diminished capacity will have an improved capacity after such a treatment, as has been known for many decades. (Albeit not as great as a new battery, since some material is lost from the plates).

But that is not the claim of the Bedini machine. It does not claim to rejuvenate batteries. It claims to provide free energy. (This is why it appears on the free energy forum, of course).

Some individuals have invested money in the technology based on the claims of free energy, believing that a new energy source has sales potential while not realising that perpetual motion machines of the first kind (which this closely resembles) are impossible.

So we have two elements:-
1) A fraudulent claim of energy production from nowhere. (Nobody has ever demonstrated this, have they?)
2) The separation of cash from investors based upon these claims.

This is my point, and this is why I call it a scam.

I freely admit that defective lead acid batteries can be rejuvenated today in the exact same way that they could 50 years ago. But that really has little to do with the topic under discussion.

Dave
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on June 04, 2008, 11:30:33 PM
@PMM Dave,

You are not correct by saying "applying a pulsed high current to the plates, thus causing some of the lead sulphate to be removed".

The method used is applying a pulsed high VOLTAGE to the plates, thus causing ALL of the lead sulphate to convert back to lead. In this process the battery does NOT heat up and NO material is falling out of the plates.
There is also a low current present that charge the battery but well below the C20 rating of the battery. This is way you can both desulfate and charge the battery at the same time without any heating in the battery.

Can you provide information on how they did it 50 years ago?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: UncleFester on June 04, 2008, 11:31:47 PM
Yes, this does recover dead batteries to an extent. It does this by applying a pulsed high current to the plates, thus causing some of the lead sulphate to be removed. So a battery with diminished capacity will have an improved capacity after such a treatment, as has been known for many decades. (Albeit not as great as a new battery, since some material is lost from the plates).

But that is not the claim of the Bedini machine. It does not claim to rejuvenate batteries. It claims to provide free energy. (This is why it appears on the free energy forum, of course).

Some individuals have invested money in the technology based on the claims of free energy, believing that a new energy source has sales potential while not realising that perpetual motion machines of the first kind (which this closely resembles) are impossible.

So we have two elements:-
1) A fraudulent claim of energy production from nowhere. (Nobody has ever demonstrated this, have they?)
2) The separation of cash from investors based upon these claims.

This is my point, and this is why I call it a scam.

I freely admit that defective lead acid batteries can be rejuvenated today in the exact same way that they could 50 years ago. But that really has little to do with the topic under discussion.

Dave

I know of only a very small percentage of the population that actually knows that a battery can be restored to new or close by de-sulfation. So the 50 year thing is known by maybe 1/10 of 1 percent of the global population...... I was not aware of this until a few years ago. Now that we are totally off grid this information is extremely important to us, and I thank Bedini and others for showing me how to do this.

Second. I have seen youtube videos of people charging two batteries via the bedini system wherein both batteries end up with higher energy than they started with. Maybe this is the proof to the claim you so vehemently protest?

Third, I am not sure if you are aware or not but this forum is under the name "OVERUNITY.COM". If you don't want to hear about or participate in experimentation along the lines of the title of this forum then it probably is not for you. In fact I know it's not for you. Most of us here are hands-on experimentors. What we do with our time and money is our own goddamn business. Adding distraction to our efforts by telling us something cannot be done just pisses people off in general because we don't give a damn what others think and don't want to skim through five miles of garbage like has been posted in the "scam" posts. On top of that most of us are very well trained in electronics, general science and have studied many of these devices for decades. So most of the time what you are trying to tell us has already been heard for many years.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: UncleFester on June 04, 2008, 11:37:11 PM
@PMM Dave,

Can you provide information on how they did it 50 years ago?

Groundloop.

They did it by putting sodium hydroxide in the emptied cells and letting it sit. Thereby creating lead plumbates which are of course highly toxic. Then those plumbates (powder when dry) had to be disposed of, so they would put them in concrete and that apparently locks up the plumbates in the conrete, hopefully rendering it harmless at that point.

GroundLoop, thanks for the charger, it is still working good, only 22 more Trojan T-105's to go! = )
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on June 05, 2008, 12:25:50 AM
"Maybe this is the proof to the claim you so vehemently protest?"
Maybe it is. I am not vehement, I just would like to see some test data. In other words, the current and voltage versus time plots before and after the use of the Bedini machine. If it works, there will be more total watt hours after than there were before, right?

A video of the machine running is not very useful, what we need is the test data. (It obviously runs).

Also, to the guy who said it was voltage pulses not current pulses. The current and voltage are related by the celebrated equation
V = IR
This is known as Ohm's law. I have mentioned it before, but people on the forum keep raising the issue of education in the field of electronics. Ohm's law should, IMHO, be a part of any such education. As I also mentioned before, I make no claims one way or the other about personally having such an education.

Dave
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on June 05, 2008, 12:48:22 AM
"Maybe this is the proof to the claim you so vehemently protest?"
Maybe it is. I am not vehement, I just would like to see some test data. In other words, the current and voltage versus time plots before and after the use of the Bedini machine. If it works, there will be more total watt hours after than there were before, right?

A video of the machine running is not very useful, what we need is the test data. (It obviously runs).

Also, to the guy who said it was voltage pulses not current pulses. The current and voltage are related by the celebrated equation
V = IR
This is known as Ohm's law. I have mentioned it before, but people on the forum keep raising the issue of education in the field of electronics. Ohm's law should, IMHO, be a part of any such education. As I also mentioned before, I make no claims one way or the other about personally having such an education.

Dave


@PMM Dave,

The guy did not say it was only voltage pulses. The guy said is was HIGH voltage pulses AND that there was a low current present below the C20 rate of the battery. Read the post again. The guy ALSO know Ohms law very well. :-) So the guy knows that a high voltage pulse will be converted to a high current pulse if discharged into a low resistance load. A lead acid battery is normally a low resistance load. But that is NOT the whole story. When a battery is heavy sulfated the internal resistance in the battery much higher. So if you o-scope across the battery terminals while running a desulfator on the battery, you will see ultra thin voltage spikes that should not be there because of the battery low resistance load.

Groundloop.
 
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on June 05, 2008, 02:25:08 AM
The ultra-thin voltage spikes are caused by parasitic inductance in the connections to the plates. If you want to model a battery at high frequencies, then you need to include this. Approximately, the voltage is given by
V = L dI/dt
Figure about 1nH per inch of circuit for the inductance, including both the plates and the wires to the battery. It can be modelled pretty well using a program such as PSPICE. You would use a value of internal resistance that reflected the condition of the battery, of course. The heavier the sulfation, the larger the internal resistance.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: poynt99 on June 05, 2008, 04:12:33 AM
The ultra-thin voltage spikes are caused by parasitic inductance in the connections to the plates. If you want to model a battery at high frequencies, then you need to include this. Approximately, the voltage is given by
V = L dI/dt
Figure about 1nH per inch of circuit for the inductance, including both the plates and the wires to the battery. It can be modelled pretty well using a program such as PSPICE. You would use a value of internal resistance that reflected the condition of the battery, of course. The heavier the sulfation, the larger the internal resistance.

not quite i think.

the spikes are caused by the reversed inductive kick mainly from the monopole magnet. they would be high voltage because of the relatively high internal battery resistance, and possibly as well from the sluggish/heavy charge carriers delaying the conduction current.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on June 05, 2008, 08:23:31 PM
Yes, the voltage is provided by the inductive kick. But this voltage can only appear across the battery terminals because of parasitic inductance in the battery. If it were not for this, the internal resistance of the battery would mostly short it out. But because of the small amount of inductance present in the battery itself, a narrow voltage pulse appears across the battery terminals. This voltage does not affect the plates, it is just dropped across the parasitic inductance.

Parasitic inductance is well understood. A wire is designed to connect from point A to point B, but it is not perfect. It has some resistance, some capacitance to ground, and some inductance. These are called parasitics, and they can somtimes affect a circuit. Obviously, parasitics should be minimized where possible. When modelling a circuit using SPICE, the parasitics have to be included explicitly, otherwise it gives an incorrect answer.

Here is one way to measure it:-
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/96apr/apr96a11.pdf
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: judo_jack63 on June 08, 2008, 07:44:21 PM
Hi all,

OK, can anyone see what is happening here? A "newbie" with extraordinary knowledge and tons of experience at building these devices, is yet again "stirring the pot" to keep everyone from doing useful experimentation??????

Well lads, this has been happening for DECADES in order to keep all of YOU off the workbench and in USELESS confrontation!!!!!!

Now PMM Dave, You spout some good technical theory, straight from the college textbooks.. Good thing that ol Dr. Tesla did not follow the advice from his college professor that a BRUSHLESS MOTOR could not be possible..... Otherwise the closed-mind idiots that lead the blind into the road to nowhere would be still complaining when we build stepper motors for our devices and pulse motors (PMM's) hahahhah.. Guess they don't exist either...... They claimed it as fact 150 years ago, so it's still fact, right???  Hahhaha

PMM get off your "Flat Earth", and open your eyes to the fact that "radiant energy" does NOT conform to your Ohms Law in all ways..... And if you think so, then explain why over 100 individuals have documented evidence of COOLING in certain coils when conditions are right, and simultaneously showing a DROP in current when running a load, at higher torque..........Chew on that one..

And the fact of the matter is, I have tested the Bedini devices for over 8 years, and just because some people cannot duplicate certain effects, does not mean that it is impossible!!!!!

The fact is, some people are nice people, but can't read or write.. Does that mean that we cannot as humans put words on paper???  These ignorant attitudes keep us buying oil....

Stop the jabber and put that great brain on the workbench and build something.. When will you people see what "they" are doing? PMM these batteries have been monitored by some of the most sophisticated computerized battery analyzers that are in existence today, and I can say several things here....

1. Just because YOU are not provided with the existing facts does not mean that they do not exist!
2. Just because YOU know how to postulate Ohms Law does not mean that it fits ALL situations!
3. Lastly, WHY does anyone have to show YOU proof of anything????

Bedini's devices are not properly measured by most people. Because 9/10's of the people who experiment in this field have no background of physics, or science beyond the schoolbooks. They just wake up one day and say, "Hey dude, let's save the world" FREE ENERGY......

Then there are the disrupter's. They want to convince everyone that none of this can exist. They still live in their pre-Copernicus mind. On their flat little Earth that is the center of THEIR universe.

Folks, there is more to all of this than we see. SOON, all of us will see the evidence and PROOF of what some of us are claiming.. Hahahah. Hope they enjoyed the "Black Reign" of the past century. I am willing to speculate that the oil companies have pushed their luck a bit too far. The ones with the technologies have been suppressed long enough, and soon enough they will band together and reject the strong-armed tactics.

Here are 2 scenarios to think about.

Either we will all continuing buying oil and paying prices so high that people cant travel to work, then the world is thrown into war deeper, people starving, can't buy food, and we keep sliding into the abyss.

OR, those legitimate researchers will keep ignoring the PMM's of the oil companies, and keep doing research to find answers that exist. Then those new technologies that don't quite conform to Ohms Law will help find a solution to this current situation.

Before I close this extended missive I shall say the following:

PMM, DON'T study about charge separation, voltage lag and lead in inductors and capacitors, or special characteristics of resonant circuits and remember; when you are sitting there like the 3 monkeys of see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil; please keep killing your dipole.. But let the rest of us alone to watch it not be destroyed before our load is powered.....

I make the challenge to you..... PROVE that there are no laws of physics yet undiscovered. And remember, lack of evidence is not proof.......We have no reason to prove anything to you.. And also, just remember people, the more that you publicly reveal about these technologies, the greater targets you make yourselves for those spies that are "fishing" for information.....

Old, old intel trick.... Piss everyone off and make a challenge to "PROVE" your technology....Wonder why they always disappear when they reveal their discoveries????? Coz we publicly wanted recognition for our knowledge or design....

Loose Lips Sink Ships!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PMM, you need no proof from anyone.... It don't exist, remember???

That's why you are trolling for targets regarding Bedini Technology...Right???

Folks please don't be coerced into revealing your knowledge. You know what is documented.... THAT is all that matters......In the coming years, that veil of secrecy will save many from persecution. WE know the truth... Do YOU???

Until next month,
JJ   
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on June 09, 2008, 12:17:57 AM
@judo_jack63,

Great post. Yes I agree that not "everything" is discovered yet. One thing is for sure, the Bedini method of charging
lead acid batteries is much, much better than the "brute force" current chargers. It takes a little longer to charge
the battery, yes, but less energy is needed to charge since less energy is wasted as heat. Also, there is 100% fact
that high voltage pulse charging will desulfate batteries. So you get two for one, desulftaing and charging at a lowered
energy input.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: nul-points on June 09, 2008, 02:52:54 AM
hey Feynman - all the best with the Bedini replication - looking forward to hearing what you discover about its operation


PS ...anyone know if ' PMM Dave' is somehow related to OUman (& now OUmon) of the Thane Heins thread?
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 09, 2008, 05:37:30 AM
Two simple questions.

1. Does Mr Bedini claim that his device will allow a battery to store more energy than was put in?

    Yes or No.

2. If the answer to (1) is Yes then
    Has Mr Bedini claimed the Overunity prize?

    Yes or No. If not, why not?

ERS
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 09, 2008, 06:39:26 AM
you can do your own research and see if you can find the answer to your first question.
as far as your second question, it would depend on the answer to the first. regardless of the answer to the first question, i think you would have to direct your second question to john personally, anyone else's answer would simply be a guess.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on June 09, 2008, 07:18:24 AM
@Evil Roy Slade,

You are not asking the right questions. :-)

1. Do you think we should continue the same heading we are on now, burning oil and messing up the planet?
2. Do you think nuclear waste is good for a closed system like earth?
3. Man invent thousands of non-natural chemicals every year and are releasing them into the world.
    Do you think this is a smart thing to do?

How cares if Bedini has made free energy or not. The point is that he actually tried. A lot of people around the world has been
inspired to do the same. There is no research on free energy (that I know of) in science labs around the world. There never will be. It is YOU that must do the research (along with thousands of other people) and try to find an answer to solve the energy problem. It is you that must find a loophole in the Thermo laws or Lentz's law (if possible). It is you that must discover the new laws of nature so that free energy can be possible. You can't sit around at a keyboard all day and expect to find the answer on Youtube or overunity dot com. You must do your share of research yourself. And maybe, just maybe, you a lucky and discover something new to man that will solve some of the problems we are facing.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 09, 2008, 02:46:07 PM
@Evil Roy Slade,

You are not asking the right questions. :-)

1. Do you think we should continue the same heading we are on now, burning oil and messing up the planet?
2. Do you think nuclear waste is good for a closed system like earth?
3. Man invent thousands of non-natural chemicals every year and are releasing them into the world.
    Do you think this is a smart thing to do?

How cares if Bedini has made free energy or not. The point is that he actually tried. A lot of people around the world has been
inspired to do the same. There is no research on free energy (that I know of) in science labs around the world. There never will be. It is YOU that must do the research (along with thousands of other people) and try to find an answer to solve the energy problem. It is you that must find a loophole in the Thermo laws or Lentz's law (if possible). It is you that must discover the new laws of nature so that free energy can be possible. You can't sit around at a keyboard all day and expect to find the answer on Youtube or overunity dot com. You must do your share of research yourself. And maybe, just maybe, you a lucky and discover something new to man that will solve some of the problems we are facing.

Groundloop.
Firstly, I will decide what questions I wish to pose,

The answers to your questions are No, No and No.

I spend a significant amount of time and money trying to do my bit to alleviate the problems you outlined. Using mathematically and empirically proven science facts will yield far better results than hanging on the totally unproven words of Mr Bedini and others like him. Most of the people here have good hearts and are hard working. It annoys me to see them being misled so I am trying to stop it in my own little way.

What needs proving?  OU is proven.  The Bedini motor works.  Of course, once the way
that this "OU" is generated is fully understood, then it's not OU anymore. 

OU is NOT proven. Never has, anywhere. Please quote a source for such a remarkable statement.

The Bedini motor does NOT work as an OU device.

As for your last statement, understanding something doesn't make it suddenly disappear!

@WilbyInebriated
I would be most happy to debate Mr Bedini in this forum for all to see. I am quite sure we would all learn something.

ERS
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: alan on June 09, 2008, 02:56:24 PM

OU is NOT proven. Never has, anywhere. Please quote a source for such a remarkable statement.

The Bedini motor does NOT work as an OU device.
Burn this heretic!  :P

If OU exists, then it will be proven, if not, then the proof will be wrong..
Only with proof the world will change, unless you enjoy getting a deep insight to the workings of the wheel an reinventing it.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: poynt99 on June 09, 2008, 03:14:10 PM
the gang is getting agitated

relax men, ERS has some good points,
and all other points made so far have a perspective too
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on June 09, 2008, 06:28:55 PM
A "newbie" with extraordinary knowledge and tons of experience at building these devices, is yet again "stirring the pot"
Guys, how many times do I have to say this? I make NO CLAIMS one way or the other about my levels of knowledge, experience or education!!! How hard can it be to grasp this simple concept?

I guess I should also add that I ain't telling whether I work for the oil companies or any kind of intelligence operation either!

Honestly, what part of "NO CLAIMS" do you not understand ???

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on June 09, 2008, 06:58:51 PM
@Evil Roy Slade,

>>Firstly, I will decide what questions I wish to pose.

It was a matter of speak. English is not my first language. I will defend your rights to free speech with my life,
and you can pose all the questions you like. Did you not see the smiley at the end of the sentence?

>>OU is NOT proven. Never has, anywhere. Please quote a source for such a remarkable statement.

Now here is the main problem. If I said to you that I have seen o/u two times during my 8 years research,
would you believe me? I do not think so. Because the research done by ordinary people is under documented
and not peer reviewed. A YouTube video will never be proof enough, neither will a post in this forum. How it is
possible to quote a source from a non-exsisting source?

Groundloop

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 10, 2008, 03:26:21 AM
@Groundloop

You are correct in saying that I would not believe you. But thats not because I don't like you, or any other personal reason. In fact you seem a very decent person.

My request for evidence of the OU claim, or any other, would be the same if your name was Steven Hawking or Albert Fert.

In this case the focal point is Mr Bedini. I see no reason to exempt him from the obligation to provide evidence.

Science is based on evidence. It is religion that is based on belief.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for encouraging people to have ideas and theories not matter how outlandish. I have had lots of ideas that seemed to be great at the time but turned out to be 'dogs'. Once the reality hits that the overwhelming evidence does not support the underlying theory one must accept it and move on.

A rehash of a well known Donald Trump saying that I often use is:

It's not personal, it's just science.

ERS
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Groundloop on June 10, 2008, 07:31:23 AM
@Evil Roy Slade,

>>I see no reason to exempt him from the obligation to provide evidence.
>>Science is based on evidence. It is religion that is based on belief.

Well, I'm a kind of super skeptic myself. :-) But I do try out different ideas
and estimate that there is a possibility to extract power from ambient
heat or electromagnetic radiation. I reckoned that along the way of testing
different electronic circuits I will pick up new ideas and can use those
ideas in circuits that will at least reduce the amount of energy we use.

I do not think that man fully understand all of the secrets in our universe.
The main reason for this is that math is such a poor tool to explain
everything in all dimensions. But math is the only tool we have and I guess
we are stuck with math for a long time. Math can give answers to many
situations but can never predict in advance the existence of over unity.

Take nonlinear circuits. In those circuits most math is a bad tool. In
one instance you have you oscillation going and in the next some unknown
factor detune you circuit. Think of a power oscillator and the input will try to tune
itself away from the best power transfer point when you load the output. Non
linear circuits is a pain in the a.. to work on but when you get everything right
then the reward is a circuit that spend a very little energy on heat. (I'm not
talking about switch mode supplies.) Another field that need some research
is transmittion line (delay line) circuits that use Soliton waves. So far, I
have found in my research some very promising result with such circuits.

What I'm trying to say here is that we must aim high, do the practical research and
along the way who knows what will be discovered. A good starting point is indeed
a Bedini motor and battery charger. We can not just play around in a math world and
say, no, this can't work or this is impossible. Only hard work and real circuits will
provide the truth as nature will show us. And, it is really fun to create something. :-)

Groundloop
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 10, 2008, 07:54:47 AM
In this case the focal point is Mr Bedini. I see no reason to exempt him from the obligation to provide evidence.

Science is based on evidence. It is religion that is based on belief.

so, do you, being scientific and all have some sort of evidence to provide as to whether or not john bedini made such claims? since you seem to think he has some sort of obligation to you...

it's not personal, it's just science.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Ren on June 10, 2008, 08:24:48 AM
Firstly, I will decide what questions I wish to pose,

The answers to your questions are No, No and No.

I spend a significant amount of time and money trying to do my bit to alleviate the problems you outlined. Using mathematically and empirically proven science facts will yield far better results than hanging on the totally unproven words of Mr Bedini and others like him. Most of the people here have good hearts and are hard working. It annoys me to see them being misled so I am trying to stop it in my own little way.

OU is NOT proven. Never has, anywhere. Please quote a source for such a remarkable statement.

The Bedini motor does NOT work as an OU device.

As for your last statement, understanding something doesn't make it suddenly disappear!

@WilbyInebriated
I would be most happy to debate Mr Bedini in this forum for all to see. I am quite sure we would all learn something.

ERS


ERS I am interested in your definition of so called "overunity". If you are saying OU has never been proven, EVER, then I ask where all your documentation is from the beginning of time regarding every device/concept ever built?

Can you honestly say you have studied and explored all avenues to the letter, or are you just saying you havent heard/seen it proven?

In regards to Bedinis device (by the way which device are we reffering to? He has built hundreds)  I ask where your  documentation and build specifics are proving this device doesnt work as claimed.

As far as I am aware, NO ONE bar Jim Watson has built the machine spelled out in his 1984 booklet. Dont even start on the MythBusters so called "replication" that thing was a joke.

I see some sense in what Loner posted when he spoke of "closed minds" and how they will never get it. Free energy is all around us yet people still squabble over getting more out than they put in. If you dont have to physically pay for the input and you get useable output is this not overunity? Or is it just COP over 1? Is their a difference?

Im tired of people sledging peoples ideas and designs without any hard facts themeselves. If you were an expert and had years of research and replications to back up your findings then I would respect your opinion much more. Funnily enough JB has been working in this field for quite a while now, at least he has done his homework.

I have built over 9 of his devices and they all do what they are supposed to. COP over 1 can be seen in even the simplest of his designs when all factors are considered and they are built properly.

Feynman, you really opened up a can of worms here mate. ;) How is your little build going anyway? I thought Id ask cause no one else seems to be on topic.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on June 10, 2008, 10:12:15 AM
Bedini OU Test
 
It does not seem that the Bedini motor is an over unity device. The 2 battery configuration setup appears to be an inefficient pulse charger. Bedini experimenters have observed benefits of pulse charging but little else.
 
Here are two simple OU tests.
 
Test One
 
Assume we are using 12 volt batteries, assume the batteries are the same type and age, assume the batteries are near the same temperature each time you do the test.
 
Fully charge both batteries and wire them in parallel.
Clip a 10 - 15 watt bulb across the pair and measure the voltage.
You will need two identical lamps, we will use the second one later.
Note how long the bulb will stay lit before the voltage drops to 10 volts.
Repeat the action 3 or 4 times and average your results.
Do the same with one cell at a time.
 
Be patient, we are talking about several charge and discharge cycles, it will be worth it.
 
Document discharge times for each cell with the same bulb.
 
Depending on the load curve, internal battery heat, cell fatigue and comparative cell quality, the discharge time of one cell should be about half that of two strapped together.
 
For this example, lets assume that the two strapped together batteries give two hours of light before they drop to 10 volts and each cell on its own gives one hour of light before it drops to 10 volts.
 

Recharge both batteries.
 
Connect to Bedini motor
Connect one lightbulb to each battery.
Start your Bedini motor.
You can start the Bedini motor first if you want.
 

This is a crude but important method.
 
If the system is operating over unity the total 'on time' before 10 volts should be greater while the Bedini motor is running than otherwise. In other words the two lights should stay on together for more than one hour.
 
My Prediction:
 
The Bedini draws current and each lamp draws current resulting in less light time than if you just charged the batteries and put a light on each one.
 
What will this demonstrate?
 
a) The Bedini is operating way under unity BUT is demonstrating an effective way to charge or maintain a battery.
b) No more work can be done by placing the Bedini between the batteries than just using the batteries

Test Two
 
Assume we are using 12 volt batteries, assume the batteries are the same type and age.
 
Acquire two 1 FARAD capacitors, like the ones used in high power car stereos. These are not cheap. If this experiment fails you will want to install a whopping big stereo in your SUV to justify their purchase.
Before starting the Bedini, clip one cap across each battery. (Be careful as they will spark on contact)
Start the Bedini.
Unclip the batteries but leave the caps in place.
 
Note: Electrolytic capacitors charge more efficiently than batteries, they won't hold as much but they are efficient.
 
While the Bedini is running, unclip the batteries from the circuit but leave the caps in. If the unit is running over unity the power source cap will run down and the charging cap will stay up. Then swap the caps as you would the batteries.
 
If the system is over unity you will be able to keep swapping these perpetually.
 
Perhaps a switch mechanism could be built to keep swapping the caps easily.
 
Prediction
 
The system will run down very fast.
Once swapped there will be enough charge in the newly swapped in cap to run the system for a while but it will only impart a feeble anemic charge into the discharged cap. The source cap will sputter miserably down to about 10 volts and the target cap will reach about 8 or 9 volts, the motor will stop.
 
What will this demonstrate?
 
That the Bedini is a glorified and highly inefficient pulse charger.
 

What conclusions can we draw?
 
a) We could build a solid state autotransformer pulse charger for about 10 bucks that will outperform the Bedini as a battery charger. (in fact if you take the time to plan you could build a pulse based battery reconditioner that can be used on the same battery that is powering it.)
b) The rotating magnets are a waste of valuable energy ? but have high entertainment value
c) Claims that the Bedini motor is an OU device are fanciful at best and outright lies at worst.
 
The Bedini is likely to draw between 60 - 500 MA. Depending on tuning. The reader may be tempted to say that this power loss is enough to overcome any over unity gain. Resist that temptation. When the system was running as a battery pulse charger the load of the Bedini was never considered.
 
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Ren on June 10, 2008, 11:49:52 AM
willitwork you ignorance amuses me.

To start with Bedini never said the SG was an overunity device, NEVER! This has been stated time and time again, but people keep jumping on the band wagon to discredit it not being OU, they clearly do not understand its function or purpose.

Funny thing is your first testing method is not unlike the methods proposed in the Monopole forums. Basically the experimenter charges and discharges the battery multiple times and records the data. Many people, myself included, have completed this test and found similar results. The battery charged by the SG not only charges faster over repeated cycles, but holds its charge better and thus powers its load longer. All this has been documented many times in other forums, with strict conditions and criteria including control groups charged conventionally. Some people have done over 50 cycles straight. Your lack of knowledge regarding battery lonlevity is also apparant from your suggestion that voltage be reduced to 10 volts each cycle.

The Bedini ENERGISER (it aint no motor in its simplest form, JB says so countless times) has always been under unity, its Co efficient of Performance is only apparaent when one factors in what is captured in the battery and the small amount of free mechanical. Every circuit has losses. The amount of work the charge battery can do is where the learning starts

I laugh at your post that first sets an innapropriate test senario then sums it all up with not only a Prediction but conclusions! Your tests to start with are totally unrelated to the principles of the Energiser and incorrectly place it into the box your mind has already prepared for it. The box of faliure before an understanding of even the basic principles are grasped. May as well build a car without wheels then say it doesnt roll so cars dont work.... ???

"That the Bedini is a glorified and highly inefficient pulse charger." lol more ignorance to laugh at. Infact it is perhaps one of the most efficient not to mention simplest pulse chargers available which not only charges from the same or LOWER source voltage but does so in a way which not only maintains battery life, but increases it over time!

"The rotating magnets are a waste of valuable energy ? but have high entertainment value" lol again! Describe to me how these rotating magnets are wasting valuable energy, Im keen for some more laughs. You obviously dont understand their purpose yet again!

I am highly interested to see your $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging, of course if one wants scientific evidence then that battery must undergo repeated load tests just like the SG batteries to see if over time the battery is being killed and if the charging action is decent.

"Electrolytic capacitors charge more efficiently than batteries, they won't hold as much but they are efficient." <- Blanket statement once again shows your lack of knowledge.

"When the system was running as a battery pulse charger the load of the Bedini was never considered." I dont understand what your are getting at here, I really dont. The Charge battery IS the load, the energiser cant run effectively without it!

When all the misinformed indivduals finally understand what the basic SG is perhaps I can stop repeating myself about it. THE SG ISNT OVERUNITY. IT NEVER WAS CLASSIFIED AS THIS BY ANYONE WHO HAD A CLUE. JB's free energy generator from the 1984 publication was a whole different kettle of fish and was claimed to keep the run batteries topped up while delivering useable output. People are forever confusing the two.

Your suggestions and comments inform me that you have NEVER built the devices mentioned, let alone studied them at length. Another mythbuster in the making....


Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: alan on June 10, 2008, 01:07:01 PM
Willitwork's testplan is a very good startingpoint to systematically test the device, maybe too conventional for some :P . Using caps like that is a good idea, batteries have too many variables. Many have claimed excess energy in caps which were being pulsed, so don't say ' caps will NOT work' without any info. See nul-points' Tesla thread.

What bedini did claim, was a high efficient device that creates back emf and capturing it in a cap or batteries.
_The_ 'radiant event' in the battery, where 'energy from the vacuum' is converted, is the overunity effect which is being discussed here, someting like that.
The motor is used for timing the signals and spikes, not for torque, his commercial devices are all solid state, but, quoting Bearden:
"These first Bedini systems just now entering very limited production are not overunity, but do incorporate some of the principles of the motor/generator, which have been adapted, in a lesser form, to accommodate building a solid-state device." So even the fe-guru links overunity with Bedini.

Ren, how many SSG have you build?
Correct me if I'm wrong and don't call us ignorant and closed minded... if we were, we wouldn't be on this forum.  8)

edit
For those interested, here is the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=wSkJAAAAEBAJ
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on June 10, 2008, 02:23:28 PM
Ren,

My pulse motor in various configurations with various coil types has been running for weeks. I have tuned it and seen its many sweet spots. I use a hall effect device which feeds an op amp used as a voltage comparator. The threshold can be adjusted. The op amp (a legacy LM301) fires a 555 which drives a 2N3055. If the principle could be demonstrated to work I would have converted to a MOSFET output with much higher rise time drivers.

My test procedure was as folllows:

Build the basic unit watch the back EMF, reuse as much as possible. Vary the pulse width, hall effect sensor position and threshold and voltage driving the coils to identify the sweetspots. Watch all waveforms on the trusty Tektronix. At one time I used a cap across the coil to turn it into a tuned tank. That produced curious results. I measured the output that the system would use to pulse batteries. It did not take long to determine that any claim to aetheric entergy was pure bunk.

I was able to get the unit to spin at 1500 RPM with 5 volts on the drive circuit and a 4ms pulse drawing about 50ma. Much higher speed with increased drive voltage and higher pulse widths. The precise position of the hall effect device is also critical. The spinning magnets stir up the air and of course incur loss. If I take the magnets out of the circuit and convert the 555 to an astable variable duty cycle oscillator I can get similar output from the coil as when the magnets are spinning. The only difference is that I won't be waisting energy by churning air with a bunch of spinning magnets. That output can be fed to an ususpecting rechargeble via a half wave rectifier. Saves on spining metal.

Now Bedini may have never stated that the device was OU but some people on this thread do.

Here are my questions to you:

How have you built your Bedini? What results have you achieved?


PS: If you paint the magnets and use a strobe you will be entertained by them.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 10, 2008, 02:58:31 PM
@WilbyInebriated

I refer you to http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/bedpress.htm

I assume this press release was authorised by Mr Bedini. There doesn't seem to be a retraction of the claims anywhere, although I haven't searched extensively so may have missed it.

ERS

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: canuck22 on June 10, 2008, 03:22:31 PM
not really wanting to move you all away fom your bickering.......

feynman how goes the build?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 10, 2008, 03:32:55 PM
Hi Ren,

My definition of overunity is that more energy can be extracted from a device than is input. The input energy is measured by quantity, not its cost.

So although the input energy may be free in cost terms, e.g. Wind, the energy input is not zero in quantum terms. BTW The efficiency of extracting power from the wind has an upper limit of 59%, the Betts Limit.

I haven't seen every device ever built quite obviously, so my own narrow view of the world is the only thing I am going on. Feel free to point me in the direction of an OU device that has had some independent testing done on it.

My background and what I have built, or not, is of no relevance. I am challenging the claims of Mr Bedini and haven't put forth my own. If and when I do then please challenge me as much as you like. I would expect no less.

You have built 9 of Mr Bedini's devices?. Are you in fact claiming to have an overunity device? Or were the devices underunity battery chargers? Sorry for the confusion on my part.


@Feynman

I apologise for hijacking your thread. It was inconsiderate of me. Let me know if you prefer this
tangential debate be taken elsewhere.

ERS


Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: tinu on June 10, 2008, 08:04:22 PM
...
If you are saying OU has never been proven, EVER, then I ask where all your documentation is from the beginning of time regarding every device/concept ever built?

Can you honestly say you have studied and explored all avenues to the letter, or are you just saying you havent heard/seen it proven?

Now and then I still let a stone drop and watch it.
Nope, I haven?t explored all avenues? Too many stones.
Neither have I kept much documentation about falling stones.
Maybe the next one will levitate or even ?fall upward?. Who really knows?!
In fact, I know for sure it will do so. I?ve heard one saying that one witnessed it. I guess it happened to me too; but it was a long time ago ? I forgot how I did it. Just trust me. Post 25 pictures of your stones with your username on them and maybe, just maybe, I?ll remember how I did it. Don?t ask me to prove it; that?s impertinence!  ;)
(Now: where is that thread about OU falling stones? ??? )

Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 11, 2008, 06:42:22 AM
My background and what I have built, or not, is of no relevance. I am challenging the claims of Mr Bedini and haven't put forth my own. If and when I do then please challenge me as much as you like. I would expect no less.

so you still maintain the these "claims" are made by john even though by your own words you have no evidence to back up this statement that it's john himself making these claims. in fact, you admit to making an assumption about it all. it's asinine for you to call out john and "challenge" him on a claim he has never made wouldn't you say? on that note, the "press release" you linked says, and i quote "...according to sources..." do you have some evidence that john was one of these sources? you think he should retract a claim that he didn't make? how exactly does one do that? ren was right, this is good for some laughs...

independent testing? yeah... that's called building one yourself. see then you can do the experiment just how you want. your own quality control, your own measurements, etc.

naw don't actually build something you might lose your
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 11, 2008, 02:27:24 PM
independent testing? yeah... that's called building one yourself. see then you can do the experiment just how you want. your own quality control, your own measurements, etc.

Let's follow your line of argument that the Bedini Motor is NOT claimed overunity.

What would I end up with if I were to heave myself out of my comfortable recliner and build this motor, as Feynman is doing. It's not an overunity device. Is it a really good battery charger? But I already have a number of chargers....PWM driving some nice juicy mosfets....buck or boost.

I am curious as to what Feynman's aim is in building the Bedini Motor. What say you Feynman?

And what of all the replications faithfully documented in a myriad of youtube videos.
Are they all aware that the result of their efforts is a battery charger?

Perhaps there is another use for this motor that has escaped me. Please enlighten me.

ERS

 



 
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Evil Roy Slade on June 11, 2008, 02:31:02 PM
BTW, the PHD in that lovely armchair should be on the back of the chair so everyone can see it when I am blissfully resting :)

ERS
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: poynt99 on June 11, 2008, 02:37:03 PM
@ wilby

although it was not Bedini making the claim directly in that press release, see "Energy from the Vacuum - Part 2". In this video there is no doubt that Bedini is claiming overunity from his motor/generator devices

--about the independent testing statement made by ERS, you missed the point

the point is to have a device, for which the builder claims to be overunity, tested by a qualified group (most people are not) to verify the claims

this way it is the actual inventor's/builder's device that he built being tested, and it is being done by an independent and qualified group. the myth busters are obviously not a qualified group to do this sort of test.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: PMM Dave on June 11, 2008, 07:24:21 PM
@ wilby
the point is to have a device, for which the builder claims to be overunity, tested by a qualified group (most people are not) to verify the claims
This phrase sums up the problems being explored in this thread very succinctly.
1) Does the builder claim overunity, and if not, what DOES he claim?
2) Nobody is more qualified to test the machine than the builder! Once the builder has some interesting test results, THEN it might be worth another group replicating the tests. But otherwise, what is the point?

I personally have not seen any quantitative test results, properly documented, that indicate overunity. Can anybody point me to some?

Also, I like the picture of an armchair that says "PHD" on it. Does this mean that anybody on this forum actually HAS a PhD? Just thought I would ask.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: nul-points on June 11, 2008, 08:22:25 PM
I personally have not seen any quantitative test results, properly documented, that indicate overunity. Can anybody point me to some?

i don't want to prolong the hijacking of Feynman's thread, so i won't enter into a discussion here - if you want to follow up my results with me we can either do that privately via PM / email or in public via my 'OU/COP>1 switched cap...' thread

results from my recent experiments are posted at:
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

as you would read on my website, i don't have a PhD  ;)

regards
sandy
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on June 12, 2008, 04:27:32 AM
The Bedini and other pulse motors are excellent projects that are worth building. It is possible that some energy is pulled from the environment at or about the time the motor pulses. Once these these units hit their sweet spots they are a beautiful thing to watch. They seem to be efficient and very stable. The holy grail, imho, is not to build a self sustaining unit first up but to determine if we are extracting any energy at all from a source other than the our input power supply.

Personally I would be happy if it could be accurately determined that we are only able to pull milliwatts from the environment. That would be enough to warrant pushing into further and more refined development. If we can get milliwatts we should not discount the possibility that we could get megawatts!

In my own testing I have not been able to measure any gains. That does not mean that there aren't any, it just means that I can't measure them. Good Luck Feynman and let us know if we can assist you. I will watch the thread with interest.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: shadotrak on July 12, 2008, 03:20:37 PM
hey Feynman - all the best with the Bedini replication - looking forward to hearing what you discover about its operation


I AM NEW BUT HAVE BEEN MONITORING THESE BOARDS FOR A WHILE.
THE OBJECTIVE WILL BE ACHIEVED, NO DOUBT, EVEN TO TRACKING THE PATTERN OF THE ELECTRON AND DIRECTING THE LITTLE SCUTTER.

WILL BE WATCHING, OH! YES I HAVE A FEW THINGS IN THE WORKS, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN RESULTS ARE POSITIVE.

SHADOTRAK

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: ramset on July 12, 2008, 03:31:37 PM
FEYNMAN hows things? Chet
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: shadotrak on July 12, 2008, 03:33:38 PM
hey Feynman - all the best with the Bedini replication - looking forward to hearing what you discover about its operation



I HAVE BEEN WATCHING THESE BOARDS FOR A WHILE NOW.
THE OBJECTIVE WILL BE ACHIEVED !

ANYONE CAN SPOUT THE RULES AS CONTAINED IN CURRENT OUTDATED TEXTBOOKS,
BUT WHEN THEY ARE 10-20 YEARS BEHIND, AND WANT TO LIVE IN THE PAST, AND TRY TO GET EVERYONE TO ADHERE TO THEIR WAY OF THINKING, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO WILL BE LEFT BEHIND.

NEW DISCOVERIES ARE NOT COVERED IN TEACHINGS WHICH ARE USED TODAY!

THE ONLY THING TAUGHT ARE THE " CLOSE YOUR MIND TO ANYTHING I SAY YOU CANNOT
BELIEVE"  AND MAKE EVERYONE CONFORM.


THINKING OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE WILL EXPEDITE THE DISCOVERIES NEEDED TO EASE
THE ENERGY CRUNCH. 

I HAVE PROJECTS IN THE WORKS, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT, AS SOON AS THERE ARE POSITIVE RESULTS.
THEN "MYTHBUSTERS" WILL HAVE EGG ON THEIR FACE.

AGAIN GOOD LUCK ON THE REPLICATION.
NOT SHOUTING JUST CAN'T SEE WELL.

SHADOTRAK
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Magnerazz on July 16, 2008, 04:17:01 AM
This is a paper on a Bedini replication by doctorate level physicists. They found that it worked as claimed. The physics have been worked out to engineering level. It is overunity and it does not violate conservation of energy. http://www.aias.us/documents/uft/a94thpaper.pdf (it is too big to attach)

I have been following Einstein Cartan Evans unified field theory for over a year now. It is being widely accepted in the industrial physics community of working scientists, but the academic community will not accept it because it steps on some pet 20th century theories, I.E. no black holes and no big bang, no need for dark energy or dark matter. It explains all available empirical observations and experimental data for any branch of physics in a 4d general relativity geometrical model, so no need for extra dimensions or string theory ( which has never produced anything useful anyway) . However ECE has been developed and tested with super computers and is rigorously mathematically correct. All of the well proven laws of classical and quantum physics are recovered as special limits of ECE theory.

The kicker is that ECE predicts the ability to extract energy from space time both gravitationally and electromagnetically thru spin resonance connections. The physical laws involved are of the same mathematical structure as the Coulomb, Ampere-Maxwell, Faraday and Gauss laws of classical electrodynamics with added terms to define the spin connections.

The Bedini motor properly configured produces such a spin resonant connection within the target battery itself. The battery self charges from a spacetime connection. The motor simply produces the resonance conditions necessary for this to take place, it does not supply charge current to the battery.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: nul-points on July 16, 2008, 06:50:34 PM
let's see if i get this straight:-

  Professor Evans et al produce a paper supporting energy drawn from 'coiled' space-time as a perfectly valid process & citing the Bedini motor/battery charger as an example

  The Prof, with the support and assistance of other equally heavy-duty scientists (one or more having worked in association with Einstein's team), has managed to complete Einstein's dream of unifying general relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics and now fully believes that, using appropriate techniques, energy can be drawn from the 'vacuum' without violating anything more than a skeptic's pride


dayyum - the poor old Prof must be kicking himself that Mythbusters have so decisively shown that this is an impossibility - it would mean 'Perpetual Motion', after all  ;)


hi Magnerazz - i think it's pretty mean that you've been sitting on this stuff for year!!!   :)
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 17, 2008, 01:47:42 AM
This is a paper on a Bedini replication by doctorate level physicists. They found that it worked as claimed. The physics have been worked out to engineering level. It is overunity and it does not violate conservation of energy. http://www.aias.us/documents/uft/a94thpaper.pdf (it is too big to attach)

I have been following Einstein Cartan Evans unified field theory for over a year now. It is being widely accepted in the industrial physics community of working scientists, but the academic community will not accept it because it steps on some pet 20th century theories, I.E. no black holes and no big bang, no need for dark energy or dark matter. It explains all available empirical observations and experimental data for any branch of physics in a 4d general relativity geometrical model, so no need for extra dimensions or string theory ( which has never produced anything useful anyway) . However ECE has been developed and tested with super computers and is rigorously mathematically correct. All of the well proven laws of classical and quantum physics are recovered as special limits of ECE theory.

The kicker is that ECE predicts the ability to extract energy from space time both gravitationally and electromagnetically thru spin resonance connections. The physical laws involved are of the same mathematical structure as the Coulomb, Ampere-Maxwell, Faraday and Gauss laws of classical electrodynamics with added terms to define the spin connections.

The Bedini motor properly configured produces such a spin resonant connection within the target battery itself. The battery self charges from a spacetime connection. The motor simply produces the resonance conditions necessary for this to take place, it does not supply charge current to the battery.

I am assuming that the good scientists have a perpetually-spinning Bedini motor to accompany their bold conclusions.  What, no?  Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Magnerazz on July 17, 2008, 04:39:32 AM
I am assuming that the good scientists have a perpetually-spinning Bedini motor to accompany their bold conclusions.  What, no?  Hmmmm.

Yes they replicated the Bedini patent plans. Understand that this is a greater than 100% COP device, like a heat pump it requires energy input from an isolated source to modulate a larger output from another discrete source. Space time is the relativity theory term for this source of primordial charge density that is an inherent property of the universe. Other theories might call this " Aether" or " Gamma and Beta Atmospheres".  The Bedini motor will not work if connected in a direct loop to its own battery source. However it will charge multiple target batteries which can then be used to power other devices as well as be swapped out to run the motor. But the motor and charge circuits must be isolated and the charger side is not grounded except through the batteries in circuit. There is no earth ground involved.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 17, 2008, 04:45:37 AM
The Bedini motor will not work if connected in a direct loop to its own battery source. However it will charge multiple target batteries which can then be used to power other devices as well as be swapped out to run the motor.

This does not pass logical muster.  If a Bedini motor can charge a target battery, why can't that battery in turn be used to recharge the source batter via another Bedini wheel, thus creating perpetual motion?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Magnerazz on July 17, 2008, 05:44:04 AM
The reason is the charge circuit is only over 100% COP over a very narrow range of resonant interactions that actually occur within the battery itself. The output loop and the battery form a resonant tank circuit. Adding any external load will change the resonant condition. The charged battery has to be removed from the charger circuit and utilized to drive a separate discrete load to realize the gain.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 17, 2008, 06:51:13 AM
The reason is the charge circuit is only over 100% COP over a very narrow range of resonant interactions that actually occur within the battery itself. The output loop and the battery form a resonant tank circuit. Adding any external load will change the resonant condition. The charged battery has to be removed from the charger circuit and utilized to drive a separate discrete load to realize the gain.

Fine, remove the battery from the circuit when it is fully charged.  Swap in a new battery.  Voila.  Keep going.  Perpetual motion achieved.   I am sure the overunity of the Bedini motor is enough to perform the basic mechanical motion of swapping two batteries on rollers, no?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 17, 2008, 12:51:27 PM
"resonant interactions that actually occur within the battery itself"

Magnerazz, I'm with utilitarian on this. Keep charging, swapping and unloading batteries. Calculate the total power delivered by the disconnected batteries over time and it should be easy - very very easy -  to determine if you are getting any gain at all.

As for the "resonant interactions that actually occur within the battery itself" are we to believe that lead acid gel cells behave differently than car batteries, nicads, NiMH or Li-Ion type batteries?

At this point I don't buy the "The output loop and the battery form a resonant tank circuit." at all.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Magnerazz on July 17, 2008, 01:48:37 PM
Look at the Bedini circuit diagram. The output circuit is inductively isolated from the input circuit. The circuit possesses all of the characteristics of a simple RCL oscillator. The battery itself has resistance capacitance and inductance properties. A gel cel is a lead acid battery and for some reason the lead acid chemistry lends itself to resonance connections in a practical relatively low frequency range. That other battery chemistries don't work illustrates the quirky nature of the physics involved. There would be a whole set of different resonances for different materials, many of which would not fall into practically achievable ranges. This is the nature of spin resonance connection. For lead acid the resonant connection occurs with a specific set of harmonics somewhere in the 3.5 mHz range. The motor or exciter side of the circuit generates multiple wave forms and the resonant connection is an intermodulation harmonic response. If you built a successful replication, and there have been many, based on a particular size and type of lead acid battery, substituting a different size or type would require retuning the exciter circuit to find resonance again. There is no one magic set point, for any individual device a successful tuning is going to be specific to the physical geometry and electrical characteristics that particular device.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 18, 2008, 12:39:23 AM
Look at the Bedini circuit diagram. The output circuit is inductively isolated from the input circuit. The circuit possesses all of the characteristics of a simple RCL oscillator. The battery itself has resistance capacitance and inductance properties. A gel cel is a lead acid battery and for some reason the lead acid chemistry lends itself to resonance connections in a practical relatively low frequency range. That other battery chemistries don't work illustrates the quirky nature of the physics involved. There would be a whole set of different resonances for different materials, many of which would not fall into practically achievable ranges. This is the nature of spin resonance connection. For lead acid the resonant connection occurs with a specific set of harmonics somewhere in the 3.5 mHz range. The motor or exciter side of the circuit generates multiple wave forms and the resonant connection is an intermodulation harmonic response. If you built a successful replication, and there have been many, based on a particular size and type of lead acid battery, substituting a different size or type would require retuning the exciter circuit to find resonance again. There is no one magic set point, for any individual device a successful tuning is going to be specific to the physical geometry and electrical characteristics that particular device.

None of what you said addresses what I said.  If you think the Bedini is overunity, then it should be very easy to set up a perpetual motion machine, using the method I outlined.  Just use a single Bedini motor and multiple sets of batteries.  At the conclusion of a particular charge, use the charged battery to activate a mechanical motor which will swap a new set of batteries into the device.  Repeat ad infinitum.  Rotate flat and charged batteries around as needed, and siphon off extra electricity into other batteries or external sources (using something other than the Bedini wheel).  Repeat ad infinitum.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 01:17:27 AM
show us your charge monitoring circuit utilitarian... what is its power usage?
mechanical motor? please elaborate, what is its draw? i'm sure you have the bistro math for how much energy the motor will consume moving large heavy lead acid batteries...

what, no?  hmmmm.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 18, 2008, 01:25:23 AM
show us your charge monitoring circuit utilitarian... what is its power usage?
mechanical motor? please elaborate, what is its draw? i'm sure you have the bistro math for how much energy the motor will consume moving large heavy lead acid batteries...

what, no?  hmmmm.

I do not have the burden of proof.  The person claiming overunity does.  Everyone claiming overunity from a non-continuous device makes some lame excuse or another for why the device will not run perpetually.  I am pointing out why this is so ridiculous.  The bottom line is if you have extra energy, you can close the loop somehow, always.  If you do not have extra energy, that is a problem.

Do you think the Bedini is overunity?  I suspect you do not (very few people do, even in the OU community) and so I do not even see why you are arguing this.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 01:26:14 AM
LOL as i said before show some proof of someone claiming over unity...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 01:33:53 AM
and burden of proof was not even mentioned... even though you did make a claim of "this is how to close the loop, blah blah use MY method..." i simply asked you for a precise accounting of how much energy your "add-ons" were going to cost us. this is logical. we require it to "pass logical muster"... yes twist and distract but you never put up when asked directly do you? come to think of it you never shut up either...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 01:55:34 AM
None of what you said addresses what I said.  If you think the Bedini is overunity, then it should be very easy to set up a perpetual motion machine, using the method I outlined.  Just use a single Bedini motor and multiple sets of batteries.  At the conclusion of a particular charge, use the charged battery to activate a mechanical motor which will swap a new set of batteries into the device.  Repeat ad infinitum.  Rotate flat and charged batteries around as needed, and siphon off extra electricity into other batteries or external sources (using something other than the Bedini wheel).  Repeat ad infinitum.

show us your charge monitoring circuit utilitarian... what is its power usage?
mechanical motor? please elaborate, what is its draw? i'm sure you have the bistro math for how much energy the motor will consume moving large heavy lead acid batteries...

what, no?  hmmmm.

I do not have the burden of proof.  The person claiming overunity does.  Everyone claiming overunity from a non-continuous device makes some lame excuse or another for why the device will not run perpetually.  I am pointing out why this is so ridiculous.  The bottom line is if you have extra energy, you can close the loop somehow, always.  If you do not have extra energy, that is a problem.

Do you think the Bedini is overunity?  I suspect you do not (very few people do, even in the OU community) and so I do not even see why you are arguing this.

none of what you said addresses what i said.  ::)

shall i point out more of why you are ridiculous?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 18, 2008, 03:45:38 AM
and burden of proof was not even mentioned... even though you did make a claim of "this is how to close the loop, blah blah use MY method..." i simply asked you for a precise accounting of how much energy your "add-ons" were going to cost us. this is logical. we require it to "pass logical muster"... yes twist and distract but you never put up when asked directly do you? come to think of it you never shut up either...

Burden of proof is implicitly mentioned - you are asking for specific calculations, which I am under no obligation to provide.  I have pointed out how weak the excuses were for not making a perpetually-spinning Bedini, given the claim that the device is overunity.  The person defending the overunity aspect of the device has repeatedly put forth lame reasons why the loop cannot be closed, and I am exploring the lengths to which these "researchers" even bothered to try.

After all, no defense would be needed, if they could just show a perpetually running device.  But no, they have to resort to a convoluted explanation of why it won't run. I say, baloney!

And if you cannot realize that moving a pair of batteries sideways on a smooth surface on smooth rollers is a trivial task, I cannot help you.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 04:55:30 AM
burden of proof implicit? perhaps, after all your claim WAS explicit.
funny how you require burden of proof for someone else's claim, but seem to think the same is not required of yours.
hey i'm just exploring the lengths you will go to to not try...
if it's such a trivial task it should be quite simple for you to provide the amount of energy required.

nice twist by the way  ::)
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 18, 2008, 05:04:34 AM
hey i'm just exploring the lengths you will go to to not try...
if it's such a trivial task it should be quite simple for you to provide the amount of energy required.

nice twist by the way  ::)

OK fine, the answer is 46.3604 joules.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 05:12:38 AM
LOL, there's that bistro math you are so famous for
kinda leaving out some data aren't you? what's the weight of your imaginary batteries? and your imaginary rollers what are the specs on those?

you have a strange definition of a "proof"... somehow i think you would require more that for your proof from the "bedini group"
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: utilitarian on July 18, 2008, 05:25:03 AM
LOL, there's that bistro math you are so famous for
kinda leaving out some data aren't you? what's the weight of your imaginary batteries? and your imaginary rollers what are the specs on those?

you have a strange definition of a "proof"... somehow i think you would require more that for your proof from the "bedini group"

Was that the European swallow or the African swallow?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 05:27:03 AM
nice twist
 ::)

still waiting on that charge monitoring circuit diagram...
still waiting on the motor specs...
still waiting on the battery count and weight...
still waiting on the roller specs...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 18, 2008, 01:18:03 PM
nice twist
 ::)

still waiting on that charge monitoring circuit diagram...
still waiting on the motor specs...
still waiting on the battery count and weight...
still waiting on the roller specs...

The testing method proposed in my earlier post will work perfectly:

Assume we are using 12 volt batteries, assume the batteries are the same type and age, assume the batteries are near the same temperature each time you do the test.
 
Fully charge both batteries and wire them in parallel.
Clip a 10 - 15 watt bulb across the pair and measure the voltage.
You will need two identical lamps, we will use the second one later.
Note how long the bulb will stay lit before the voltage drops to 10 volts.
Repeat the action 3 or 4 times and average your results.
Do the same with one cell at a time.
 
Be patient, we are talking about several charge and discharge cycles, it will be worth it.
 
Document discharge times for each cell with the same bulb.
 
Depending on the load curve, internal battery heat, cell fatigue and comparative cell quality, the discharge time of one cell should be about half that of two strapped together.
 
For this example, lets assume that the two strapped together batteries give two hours of light before they drop to 10 volts and each cell on its own gives one hour of light before it drops to 10 volts.
 

Recharge both batteries.
 
Connect to Bedini motor
Connect one lightbulb to each battery.
Start your Bedini motor.
You can start the Bedini motor first if you want.
 

If the system is operating over unity the total 'on time' before 10 volts should be greater while the Bedini motor is running than otherwise. In other words the two lights should stay on together for more than one hour.
 
My Prediction:
 
The Bedini draws current and each lamp draws current resulting in less light time than if you just charged the batteries and put a light on each one. The 'charging battery' will run down first as it has to power the light bulb and the Bedini.

In other words: no OU, no gain from an internal lead acid resonance just an innefficent pulse charger. Easy test, easy to demonstrate.

Another possible test - almost no cost.

Load the source battery with a resistive load, run it down and swap it with the target battery. Don't load the target battery in the event that the load upsets the tank circuit. (Just in case the lead acid battery resonance is not fiction)

General Question:

Can you point to any Bedini test that actually loads any of the batteries with any sort of substantial load?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2008, 11:53:23 PM
none of what you said addresses what i said...  ::)
do you have utilitarians charge monitoring circuit? or the motor specs? or the battery count and weight or the roller specs? my comments were not directed towards "your" method. see below for those...
...
Easy test, easy to demonstrate.
...

well, get on it then. why are you talking about it if it's so easy? do it.
acta non verba

and who cares about a substantial load anyways, according to you a small light bulb is sufficient to "bust" it or not, what difference would a "substantial load" make? i am interested to hear your "prediction" on this.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 12:00:45 AM
I'm not the guy saying that power gain can be had with a Bedini. I flat out don't believe it. My tests with Bedini style pulse motors were more than enough to convince me. Motor ran fine - measured and watched - measured more and watched - tuned and retuned. Desperately wanting to believe.

I am proposing the simplest form of test that would put the discussion to rest with ease.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 12:02:14 AM
I'm not the guy saying that power gain can be had with a Bedini. I flat out don't believe it. My tests with Bedini style pulse motors were more than enough to convince me. Motor ran fine - measured and watched - measured more and watched - tuned and retuned. Desperately wanting to believe.

I am proposing the simplest form of test that would put the discussion to rest with ease.

neither is feynman... so why are you talking heads filling up his thread with your crap?
then test it with YOUR bedini...
and who cares about a substantial load anyways, according to you a small light bulb is sufficient to "bust" it or not, what difference would a "substantial load" make? i am interested to hear your "prediction" on this.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: esaruoho on July 19, 2008, 01:11:14 AM
Look at the Bedini circuit diagram. The output circuit is inductively isolated from the input circuit. The circuit possesses all of the characteristics of a simple RCL oscillator. The battery itself has resistance capacitance and inductance properties. A gel cel is a lead acid battery and for some reason the lead acid chemistry lends itself to resonance connections in a practical relatively low frequency range. That other battery chemistries don't work illustrates the quirky nature of the physics involved. There would be a whole set of different resonances for different materials, many of which would not fall into practically achievable ranges. This is the nature of spin resonance connection. For lead acid the resonant connection occurs with a specific set of harmonics somewhere in the 3.5 mHz range. The motor or exciter side of the circuit generates multiple wave forms and the resonant connection is an intermodulation harmonic response. If you built a successful replication, and there have been many, based on a particular size and type of lead acid battery, substituting a different size or type would require retuning the exciter circuit to find resonance again. There is no one magic set point, for any individual device a successful tuning is going to be specific to the physical geometry and electrical characteristics that particular device.

Magnerazz, i really appreciated your writings to this thread. i think it opened up quite a bit. thank you also for the PDF-link, i've tried to send it to a few people to see what they think, and hopefully this'll result in something. i take it you've seen  energy from the vacuum part 2?
i really hope you'll continue posting these tidbits of info and your own musings on the bedini technology, as, well, nobody else will!
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 02:18:09 AM
" "substantial load" make? i am interested to hear your "prediction" "

Substantial load is any load that would make the Bedini anything more than a device that pulse charges batteries. My prediction is that you can't demonstrate that the Bedini can recharge batteries which will drive a load. Pulse rejuvenation of batteries has been around for a long time. This is not energy from a vacuum.

The reason we have batteries is to drive loads.

It is not my intention to dissuade anyone from studying or experimenting. I just hate seeing people throw good money after bad with continual refinements of a device that they absolutely cannot demonstrate is doing anything like - pulling energy from a vacuum.

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 02:26:50 AM
" "substantial load" make? i am interested to hear your "prediction" "

Substantial load is any load that would make the Bedini anything more than a device that pulse charges batteries. My prediction is that you can't demonstrate that the Bedini can recharge batteries which will drive a load. Pulse rejuvenation of batteries has been around for a long time. This is not energy from a vacuum.

The reason we have batteries is to drive loads.

It is not my intention to dissuade anyone from studying or experimenting. I just hate seeing people throw good money after bad with continual refinements of a device that they absolutely cannot demonstrate is doing anything like - pulling energy from a vacuum.


so a light bulb is not a load? how about a motor?
i just hate seeing people talk out their ass without replicating...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 04:17:18 AM
A light bulb is a load and so is a motor. In fact the Bedini 'motor' itself is a load. It always runs down, it always drains every battery in the circuit. - always

I quit my replication as soon as I saw it do just that.

I eagerly await your figures.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 04:24:59 AM
A light bulb is a load and so is a motor. In fact the Bedini 'motor' itself is a load. It always runs down, it always drains every battery in the circuit. - always

I quit my replication as soon as I saw it do just that.

I eagerly await your figures.

so you say "Substantial load is any load that would make the Bedini anything more than a device that pulse charges batteries" and then you say a light and a motor are loads.... which the bedini sg will run...
why are you contradicting yourself?

"it always drains EVERY battery in the circuit - ALWAYS"
are you claiming it doesn't charge a battery on the output? show us your circuit, i'm guessing its not an SG circuit...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: Magnerazz on July 19, 2008, 05:00:14 AM
The proof of  over unity with a SCR (spin resonance connection) tuned Bedini SG would be a battery or  number of batteries fully charged by the output circuit with a capacity in excess of the input circuit battery. If the output side batteries are not charged, then the circuit is not tuned to resonance.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 05:10:04 AM
I am sure It will charge the battery - (I used caps BTW). But it will only top up a nearly full battery. It won't charge it from empty. Something I saw and have read on several failed Bedini builders site. In fact the various Youtube's out there that I have seen so far all come to the same conclusion.

Here is my circuit in text form:

An analogue Hall effect device was used to drive an OP amp discriminator which fed a variable pulse width 555 driver for a 2N3055 transistor. Pulse timing, width and amplitude were fully adjustable. I recycled emf into the circuit in various ways. The best performing coil was quad (double bifilar) wound. Input current to the motor was measured and tuning resulted in a motor that would turn at 1200 RPM with about 20ma of drive current and 9 volts across the output driver.

I built the circuit so that the logic section was separately powered and the output voltage could be varied. I attempted some 20 various winding combinations and EMF salvaging and/or recycling approaches.

A one point much greater, although less stable speed and power was produced by turning the master coil into a tuned tank. It would have been in a slave tank circuit that the target battery, had I wasted the money to buy one, would have been inserted.

Most Bedini or pulse motor builders do not spend the time perfecting the resonance of the motor. I spent my time there, realising that if any gain were to be had resonance would have to be achieved first. Resonance was tricky to achieve and demonstrated a high loss (albeit sexy) electro mechanical oscillator.

A pulse type battery rejuvinator that it fully solid state could be built will far less fuss. It would set up a tank circuit that would include the battery and rejuvinate it. As the battery condition improved this type of circuit would change frequency along with the batteries change in inductance and capacitance.

It would, of course, like the Bedini not be OU or draw any power from the ether but simply be a pulse rejuvinator.


What have you built?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 05:24:57 AM
I am sure It will charge the battery - (I used caps BTW). But it will only top up a nearly full battery. It won't charge it from empty. Something I saw and have read on several failed Bedini builders site. In fact the various Youtube's out there that I have seen so far all come to the same conclusion.

Here is my circuit in text form:

An analogue Hall effect device was used to drive an OP amp discriminator which fed a variable pulse width 555 driver for a 2N3055 transistor. Pulse timing, width and amplitude were fully adjustable. I recycled emf into the circuit in various ways. The best performing coil was quad (double bifilar) wound. Input current to the motor was measured and tuning resulted in a motor that would turn at 1200 RPM with about 20ma of drive current and 9 volts across the output driver.

I built the circuit so that the logic section was separately powered and the output voltage could be varied. I attempted some 20 various winding combinations and EMF salvaging and/or recycling approaches.

A one point much greater, although less stable speed and power was produced by turning the master coil into a tuned tank. It would have been in a slave tank circuit that the target battery, had I wasted the money to buy one, would have been inserted.

Most Bedini or pulse motor builders do not spend the time perfecting the resonance of the motor. I spent my time there, realising that if any gain were to be had resonance would have to be achieved first. Resonance was tricky to achieve and demonstrated a high loss (albeit sexy) electro mechanical oscillator.

A pulse type battery rejuvinator that it fully solid state could be built will far less fuss. It would set up a tank circuit that would include the battery and rejuvinate it. As the battery condition improved this type of circuit would change frequency along with the batteries change in inductance and capacitance.

It would, of course, like the Bedini not be OU or draw any power from the ether but simply be a pulse rejuvinator.


What have you built?


so you didn't replicate the sg at all did you? you changed things all around and then labeled YOUR failure as bedini's... that's a neat trick  ::)
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 05:56:14 AM
And what precisely was your build and testing methodology?
How does your system work?
What are your numbers?
How did you get your system into resonance?
Did you take the charged battery of your resonant Bedini and disconnect it, then flatten it, then recharge it?

I didn't need to because I know a pulse charge when I see one.



Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 05:58:18 AM
And what precisely was your build and testing methodology?
How does your system work?
What are your numbers?
How did you get your system into resonance?
Did you take the charged battery of your resonant Bedini and disconnect it, then flatten it, then recharge it?

I didn't need to because I know a pulse charge when I see one.







and i know a talking head when i see one...
as i said, change everything around, don't follow directions and then cry when it doesn't work...
YOUR FAILURE
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 06:02:55 AM
So you have never built one.

hehe
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 06:05:48 AM
So you have never built one.

hehe

have you even read this thread?
try page one, where i spent time correcting PMM. another talking head who thinks any motor that uses a pulsed electromagnet is a "bedini type motor"  ::)
i followed the directions and didn't "make up" some circuit and call it "bedini type"  :o
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 06:23:33 AM
And what precisely was your build and testing methodology?
How does your system work?
What are your numbers?
How did you get your system into resonance?
Did you take the charged battery of your resonant Bedini and disconnect it, then flatten it, then recharge it?

I didn't need to because I know a pulse charge when I see one.

ahhh lets see, i actually built one according to specs, unlike you, which makes my methodology superior.
works by magic  :o
42
the usual way
yes

i needed to because thats science, nothing personal.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 06:34:24 AM
I have read the thread, I remember smirking at the guy PMM humiliated - now I realise who it was.

You state that you recovered a cell phone battery. Those are not lead acid. Magnerazz says that

 "That other battery chemistries don't work illustrates the quirky nature of the physics involved."

In other words Magnerazz says that only lead acid batteries work in this type of system. The link to his comment follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4515.msg113434.html#msg113434
(sorry I am not linking correctly)

Now Bedini did some work with other types but he referenced the negative resister effect in Lead Acid for the most part.

If you are recovering non lead acid batteries you are confirming my position perfectly.

Which of the Bedini circuits did you use?
Can you flatten the target battery and recharge it?
Reading a higher voltage on a battery under charge proves nothing.


Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 06:43:18 AM
I have read the thread, I remember smirking at the guy PMM humiliated - now I realise who it was.

You state that you recovered a cell phone battery. Those are not lead acid. Magnerazz says that

 "That other battery chemistries don't work illustrates the quirky nature of the physics involved."

In other words Magnerazz says that only lead acid batteries work in this type of system. The link to his comment follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4515.msg113434.html#msg113434
(sorry I am not linking correctly)

Now Bedini did some work with other types but he referenced the negative resister effect in Lead Acid for the most part.

If you are recovering non lead acid batteries you are confirming my position perfectly.

Which of the Bedini circuits did you use?
Can you flatten the target battery and recharge it?
Reading a higher voltage on a battery under charge proves nothing.



i can charge all sorts of batteries, LAB's perform best
i have not confirmed your position at all... especially with an "anectdotal account" according to the talking head PMM. you say it confirms your position and he says its inadmissible... how is that possible?
yes i felt so humiliated by the guy who hasn't built one talking about being scientific... ::) hrmmm i'm getting that same "feeling" again.

the sg circuit
yes, and run a load off of it. most any battery type.
OBVIOUSLY
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 07:09:01 AM
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is right back to my initial post.

Completely flatten the target - (charging) battery - (Battery-A)
Completely charge the source battery (Battery-B).

Start the Bedini.

Charge the target battery (Battery-A) up without touching the source battery  (Battery-B). Don't put any external charge in either battery ever.

If the Bedini is working as you suggest you have charged a battery  (Battery-A) with leading pulse, aetheric etc energy. Congratulations.

Now Put the charged battery (Battery-A) in the source position.
Flatten the battery that was the source battery  (Battery-B).
Charge it with the Bedini.

My original post did not call for the full discharge of the target battery (Battery-A) , if you wish the light bulb approach mentioned earlier will work.

To complete this you will need to demonstrate that you can keep at least one battery fully charged no matter how many times you swap them.

I am letting you off easy because most Bedini evangelists would seem to claim that they can keep both batteries fully charged.

If the Bedini is just a pulse charger you will not be able to fully charge the target battery and after you swap the two out, the system will run down to a miserable grinding halt.

PS, I worked with early Lead Acid batteries in two way systems in the seventies. Back then we used pulse systems to rejuvenate old lead acid and early dry rechargeables regularly.

NB A battery may come up to voltage but that does not mean it is fully charged or functioning to capacity. Earlier suggestions that a Bedini system actually destroy batteries may be completely correct. Pulse rejuvanation will occaisionally give a battery a new lease of life.

Another Prediction: Assuming both batteries are identical you will never be able to fully charge  (Battery-A) from  (Battery-B) in a Bedini circuit.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 07:13:38 AM
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is right back to my initial post.

Completely flatten the target - (charging) battery - (Battery-A)
Completely charge the source battery (Battery-B).

Start the Bedini.

Charge the target battery (Battery-A) up without touching the source battery  (Battery-B). Don't put any external charge in either battery ever.

If the Bedini is working as you suggest you have charged a battery  (Battery-A) with leading pulse, aetheric etc energy. Congratulations.

Now Put the charged battery (Battery-A) in the source position.
Flatten the battery that was the source battery  (Battery-B).
Charge it with the Bedini.

My original post did not call for the full discharge of the target battery (Battery-A) , if you wish the light bulb approach mentioned earlier will work.

To complete this you will need to demonstrate that you can keep at least one battery fully charged no matter how many times you swap them.

I am letting you off easy because most Bedini evangelists would seem to claim that they can keep both batteries fully charged.

If the Bedini is just a pulse charger you will not be able to fully charge the target battery and after you swap the two out, the system will run down to a miserable grinding halt.

PS, I worked with early Lead Acid batteries in two way systems in the seventies. Back then we used pulse systems to rejuvenate old lead acid and early dry rechargeables regularly.

NB A battery may come up to voltage but that does not mean it is fully charged or functioning to capacity. Earlier suggestions that a Bedini system actually destroy batteries may be completely correct. Pulse rejuvanation will occaisionally give a battery a new lease of life.

Another Prediction: Assuming both batteries are identical you will never be able to fully charge  (Battery-A) from  (Battery-B) in a Bedini circuit.
"Charge the target battery (Battery-A) up without touching the source battery  (Battery-B). Don't put any external charge in either battery ever." this is a contradiction.
your test is garbage, this was explained to you right after you posted it. i remember smirking...

PS i don't care what you did on who... you didn't replicate the sg circuit, you changed it how you saw fit and cried when it didn't work. i'm not gonna let you off easy, how many times do i have to say this?

another prediction: you will continue to talk out your ass instead of actually applying science and replicating

PSS we are still highly interested to see your $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 07:34:34 AM
"Charge the target battery (Battery-A) up without touching the source battery  (Battery-B). Don't put any external charge in either battery ever." this is a contradiction.
your test is garbage, this was explained to you right after you posted it. i remember smirking...

PS i don't care what you did on who... you didn't replicate the sg circuit, you changed it how you saw fit and cried when it didn't work. i'm not gonna let you off easy, how many times do i have to say this? another prediction: you will continue to talk out your ass instead of actually applying science and replicating

PSS we are still highly interested to see your $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging...

** ** **

No contradiction intended. By external charge I meant once you start this test don't put either battery on a traditional charger. (if you that is still not clear I meant - don't cheat)

Just take your Bedini which has two identical batteries in it. One is driving the motor (Battery-B) and one is being charged (Battery-A). Then discharge (Battery-A) completely and let  (Battery-B) charge it. Then swap them.

Who knows, you may be the first person ever to fully charge an identical battery with a Bedini.

I'm not asking much
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 07:39:04 AM
if you're not asking much, then do it yourself.   ::)
hey what do you know, my prediction was correct.

PS still waiting on that $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 07:42:22 AM
That was quick, how did the test go?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 07:54:04 AM
That was quick, how did the test go?

are you mental? how did what test go? your garbage test? as i told you, if it's not asking much then do it yourself.

PS still waiting on that $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 08:05:20 AM
I'm the guy saying it won't work you are saying it does. I'm saying prove it. You refuse.

Here is an illustration:

If Bill says he knows where bigfoot lives and Jack says bigfoot does not exist Bill is the one who needs to come up with the evidence.

If Bill insults Jack and demands that Jack prove bigfoot does not exist while all the time Bill insists that bigfoot is real it is not Jack who has the problem.

If Bell takes Jack and other witnesses to bigfoots lair, Bill will be a hero.

If he doesn't, well Jack won't be the mad fool.


PS, which Bedini circuit are you using? How many magnets etc? I think I asked you that earlier.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 08:07:24 AM
I'm the guy saying it won't work you are saying it does. I'm saying prove it. You refuse.

Here is an illustration:

If Bill says he knows where bigfoot lives and Jack says bigfoot does not exist Bill is the one who needs to come up with the evidence.

If Bill insults Jack and demands that Jack prove bigfoot does not exist while all the time Bill insists that bigfoot is real it is not Jack who has the problem.

If Bell takes Jack and other witnesses to bigfoots lair, Bill will be a hero.

If he doesn't, well Jack won't be the mad fool.


PS, which Bedini circuit are you using? How many magnets etc? I think I asked you that earlier.

i haven't claimed anything of the sort. i have been correcting your mistakes mostly.

I OWE YOU NOTHING.

here is an illustration. willit says it won't work and being all scientific and all he doesn't have to replicate it exactly. if willit thinks this is an insult he is a dumbass. if willit says it won't work he needs to have a replication and some data to show, if he doesn't willit will be the talking fool.

i answered what circuit i was using. you never asked boo shit about the magnets. how about you start answering some of my questions.

like where is this $10 pulse charge circuit?

and the "anectdotal account" according to the talking head PMM. you say it confirms your position and he says its inadmissible... how is that possible?

you say "Substantial load is any load that would make the Bedini anything more than a device that pulse charges batteries" and then you say a light and a motor are loads.... which the bedini sg will run... why are you contradicting yourself?

so you didn't replicate the sg at all did you?

prediction: you will continue to avoid answering and fall back to that imaginary "burden of proof" shit. typical, i noticed utilitarian fell back to that same lame bastion when i called him out on his bullshit too. can't even produce specs for his "charge monitoring circuit", sounds much like your $10 charger...



PS still waiting on that $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 08:36:12 AM
here is what pmsdave, willitwork, utilitarian and others are engaging in and calling "science"...

5.  Adopting a prejudiced stance against a theory or an observed phenomena without first investigating the details, then using this as justification for refusing to investigate the details.

      "Your ideas are obviously garbage.  What, try to replicate your
      evidence?  I wouldn't soil my hands.  And besides, it would be
      a terrible waste of time and money, since there's no question about
      the outcome."

      or "I didn't need to because I know a pulse charge when I see one."

see http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt

Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 09:05:43 AM
Does this constitute a claim that your Bedini works?

"i can charge all sorts of batteries, LAB's perform best"
and
"yes, and run a load off of it. most any battery type."

The second question is the answer to: "Can you flatten the target battery and recharge it?"

I read your two answers as admissions that the system works. The test I am after is that you completely flatten the battery connected to the cathode of the diode then start the Bedini and fully charge it, but you intimate that you have been able to do this.

- you have been holding out on us :)



The standard SG generates loss through the 10 ohm resistor, the 1K Pot, the lamp and the base to emitter junction. Have you considered any changes to minimize those losses? A 2n3055 has low gain which could be augmented by adding a silicon NPN in darlington configuration. The NEON is also wasteful. A higher voltage transistor or a switching fet would remove the need for the diode and increase efficiency as well.


Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 09:11:06 AM
Does this constitute a claim that your Bedini works?

"i can charge all sorts of batteries, LAB's perform best"
and
"yes, and run a load off of it. most any battery type."

The second question is the answer to: "Can you flatten the target battery and recharge it?"

I read your two answers as admissions that the system works. The test I am after is that you completely flatten the battery connected to the cathode of the diode then start the Bedini and fully charge it, but you intimate that you have been able to do this.

- you have been holding out on us :)



The standard SG generates loss through the 10 ohm resistor, the 1K Pot, the lamp and the base to emitter junction. Have you considered any changes to minimize those losses? A 2n3055 has low gain which could be augmented by adding a silicon NPN in darlington configuration. The NEON is also wasteful. A higher voltage transistor or a switching fet would remove the need for the diode and increase efficiency as well.



you can read my answers however you like, still waiting for your answers though...AGAIN

the test you are after is a long wait for a train that ain't coming... it's easy, you said so yourself. as i have said numerous times, get on it. run your own damn test. i owe you nothing. acta non verba, you talking head.
i haven't been holding out on you at all, you simply refused to follow directions and/or replicate.

great, "improvements" from someone who hasn't built one...  ::) LMFAO


PS still waiting on that $10 dollar pulse charger that is powered by the battery that it is charging...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 09:55:37 AM
Pulse charger - Description

Charge a cap to 18 volts or so with a TOP222 a  coil and a diode. Charge it slowly, draw about 30ma. The TOP222 is a medium power IC that generates 100KHZ pulses. Use a GMOV or an SCR Circuit to discharge the cap back into the battery. A GMOV will require a additional diode but an SCR will not.

If this unit were powered by a second battery and the cap discharge were in tune with the mysterious resonance of the battery we are charging it would be a solid state version of the Bedini.

It will probably cost a bit more than 10 bucks to build with new stuff but all the bits can be had from an old switched mode PSU from just about anything electronic today.

PS, it would way out perform the Bedini as a pulse charger because there would be no wheel to spin. But the wheel serves as a distraction for builders who claim OU but never deliver any numbers.

It would also be like gimmick device experimenters played with in the 70's.

I think that is all you need from me, now let me just get a clear yes or no answer from you:

Have you used two identical batteries in a Bedini and discharged one completely beforehand and then used the Bedini to fully charge the previously flat battery?

If yes and you can verify it, you may be in line for the OU prize.




Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 10:00:53 AM
Pulse charger - Description

Charge a cap to 18 volts or so with a TOP222 a  coil and a diode. Charge it slowly, draw about 30ma. The TOP222 is a medium power IC that generates 100KHZ pulses. Use a GMOV or an SCR Circuit to discharge the cap back into the battery. A GMOV will require a additional diode but an SCR will not.

If this unit were powered by a second battery and the cap discharge were in tune with the mysterious resonance of the battery we are charging it would be a solid state version of the Bedini.

It will probably cost a bit more than 10 bucks to build with new stuff but all the bits can be had from an old switched mode PSU from just about anything electronic today.

PS, it would way out perform the Bedini as a pulse charger because there would be no wheel to spin. But the wheel serves as a distraction for builders who claim OU but never deliver any numbers.

It would also be like gimmick device experimenters played with in the 70's.

I think that is all you need from me, now let me just get a clear yes or no answer from you:

Have you used two identical batteries in a Bedini and discharged one completely beforehand and then used the Bedini to fully charge the previously flat battery?

If yes and you can verify it, you may be in line for the OU prize.


what no circuit diagram? no cap, diode or coil specs?  ::) i noticed you gave a pedantic description of the TOP222, how strange that you would neglect the other component specs. thanks though, as i have never heard of a datasheet  ::)
and where are the answers to my other questions?
not interested in the OU prize.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: willitwork on July 19, 2008, 10:22:08 AM
TOP222  family is well referenced. Certainly as an experienced builder you don't need a circuit diagram .. do you? I have no intention of building another pulse charger but could if asked to. As stated earlier by PMM and others, pulse chargers are more than often BAD for batteries in the long term.

I quickly scanned our correspondence and seem to have missed any questions not answered. You may need to ask me again.

You mentioned earlier that you got your SG into resonance. How did you confirm that? Can you direct me to any resource that gives inductance and capacitance values for given lead acid batteries?

Finally you did not answer this:

Have you used two identical batteries in a Bedini and discharged one completely beforehand and then used the Bedini to fully charge the previously flat battery?
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2008, 10:28:53 AM
TOP222  family is well referenced. Certainly as an experienced builder you don't need a circuit diagram .. do you? I have no intention of building another pulse charger but could if asked to. As stated earlier by PMM and others, pulse chargers are more than often BAD for batteries in the long term.

I quickly scanned our correspondence and seem to have missed any questions not answered. You may need to ask me again.

You mentioned earlier that you got your SG into resonance. How did you confirm that? Can you direct me to any resource that gives inductance and capacitance values for given lead acid batteries?

Finally you did not answer this:

Have you used two identical batteries in a Bedini and discharged one completely beforehand and then used the Bedini to fully charge the previously flat battery?

of course it is well referenced, who said it wasn't? certainly as an experienced builder you don't expect me to use a 1n4007 where a 1n4742 should be? a coil? what kind of coil? what wire gauge and how many turns on what type of core?
funny how you say this will "way out perform" a bedini in one post and then in the next you say pulse chargers are bad. you do love to contradict yourself. ::)

here's the questions you didn't answer...AGAIN
like where is this $10 pulse charge circuit that is powered by the battery that it is charging? (i've included this again because your answer was incomplete)

and the "anectdotal account" according to the talking head PMM. you say it confirms your position and he says its inadmissible... how is that possible?

you say "Substantial load is any load that would make the Bedini anything more than a device that pulse charges batteries" and then you say a light and a motor are loads.... which the bedini sg will run... why are you contradicting yourself?

so you didn't replicate the sg at all did you?

the coil on the sg with the rotor sings, without the rotor turning and the battery charges. the solid state sg has no rotor.

as i said i'm not doing your tests for you. not interested in the OU prize. you can read whatever you wish from that.
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 04, 2008, 02:46:09 PM
The standard SG generates loss through the 10 ohm resistor, the 1K Pot, the lamp and the base to emitter junction. Have you considered any changes to minimize those losses? A 2n3055 has low gain which could be augmented by adding a silicon NPN in darlington configuration. The NEON is also wasteful. A higher voltage transistor or a switching fet would remove the need for the diode and increase efficiency as well.

since you wanted to continue your demonstration of your ignorance willit, so much so that you cross posted this discussion in another thread, here we are.

please explain to the rest of us EXACTLY how the neon is wasteful...
Title: Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
Post by: altium on September 18, 2008, 06:47:19 PM
@Feynman,
do you reach overunity?