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Author Topic: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor  (Read 60858 times)

Offline PMM Dave

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 01:17:50 AM »
The large voltage spikes create large current spikes according to the celebrated equation:-

V = IR

These spikes are of short duration, so the mean current is, as you say, low. However a large amplitude short duration spike is perfect for damaging a battery! You are correct in your guess that I have never built a Bedini machine. I am guessing that you have never measured the current spikes in one, nor the amount of charge available from the (damaged) battery.

I know that overcharging damages a battery from the manufacturers instructon sheet, from personal experience, and from the experience of others. Trust me, they don't like it up 'em!

I am glad that YOU like my scam, but there is a major problem with it. I don't get to take money from anybody!

But seriously, the burden of proof for an extraordinary claim lies with the claimer. In this case, the exraordinary claim is that more charge goes into the target battery than came out of the source battery. The proof would be very simple - just measure it. Yet neither you nor anybody else on this forum has done so.

So what we have here is an extraordinary claim without any proof whatever, let alone extraordinary proof.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 01:17:50 AM »

Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 01:22:09 AM »
i have "tried" to measure them, digital multimeters show random results, analog ammeter shows little to no current. my batteries have never been "damaged" by this process, in fact i have recovered batteries that would no longer accept a battery chargers "charge" and restored a PDA/cellphone battery that would barely run for an hour to minimum of 6 hours use. i know the current is minimal because i can grab the + output in one hand and the - output in the other and i remain among the living.

build one and measure it yourself, they are cheap to build.
another that wants to tell us how to build it but won't do it himself.

yes we do have an "extra ordinary" claim here. that would be you, who has never built a bedini machine "claiming" that a bedini machine damages the battery by overcharging it. without any proof whatever, let alone "extra ordinary" proof.

Offline PMM Dave

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 01:59:40 AM »
The way to measure the current pulses is with an oscilloscope, using a current probe. Simply pass the battery wire through the probe and clamp it shut. Then you get the complete current waveform. Be sure to use the type of probe that responds down to DC, otherwise you will not be able to measure the average current. Tektronix make excellent current probes and 'scopes.

A DMM will give random results because sometimes it samples on the pulse, other times on the gap between pulses. An analog meter *should* give the correct average curent, but some meters get confused by large amplitude pulses. Also, you might damage the delicate meter movement. A 'scope is definitely the way to go here.

As to the charge stored in the battery, you need an accurate measurement by discharging it in a controlled manner through a load. Anecdoatal stories about cell phone usage hardly qualify! A Triton battery conditoner, available at any hobby store, will do this just fine.

The observation that you are still alive even though you touched the wires is very gratifying to all of us, I am sure. But it hardly constiutes a scientific measurement of voltage, let alone current!

My claim is not extraordinary. I am simply claiming that overcharging a battery will damage it. Does anybody dispute this? Ordinary claims only require Podunk proof - just go to any battery manufacturer's web site to check this claim out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 01:59:40 AM »
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Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 02:04:41 AM »
My claim is not extraordinary. I am simply claiming that overcharging a battery will damage it. Does anybody dispute this? Ordinary claims only require Podunk proof - just go to any battery manufacturer's web site to check this claim out.

i call bullshit here you CLEARLY claimed the bedini was responsible for damaging batteries by overcharging... and i quote
If you look at the instruction sheet that comes with the battery, it usually says that the battery can be damaged by overcharging - and this is exactly what the Bedini machine does.

which IS extra ordinary since you have admitted to NOT having built one...

The way to measure the current pulses is with an oscilloscope, using a current probe. Simply pass the battery wire through the probe and clamp it shut. Then you get the complete current waveform. Be sure to use the type of probe that responds down to DC, otherwise you will not be able to measure the average current. Tektronix make excellent current probes and 'scopes.

A DMM will give random results because sometimes it samples on the pulse, other times on the gap between pulses. An analog meter *should* give the correct average curent, but some meters get confused by large amplitude pulses. Also, you might damage the delicate meter movement. A 'scope is definitely the way to go here.

As to the charge stored in the battery, you need an accurate measurement by discharging it in a controlled manner through a load. Anecdoatal stories about cell phone usage hardly qualify! A Triton battery conditoner, available at any hobby store, will do this just fine.

The observation that you are still alive even though you touched the wires is very gratifying to all of us, I am sure. But it hardly constiutes a scientific measurement of voltage, let alone current!

blah blah please see the second paragraph of my previous post for my suggestions on measurements, scientific or otherwise.
are you suggesting a PDA/cellphone IS NOT a load?
lol, i can't believe you would even say "scientific", you who wont even do the simple experiment...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 04:45:12 AM by WilbyInebriated »

Offline Ren

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 06:41:33 AM »
@ PMM Dave. You are correct in saying that over charging ANY battery will damage it, even if the damage may not be visible at first. And I would even go as far as to say that overcharging a battery with the monopole or other associated circuitry will cause eventual failure too, although I havent yet proved it for myself.

I hope, however, that you are not saying that the use of Bedinis circuit will damage the battery full stop, whether manufactures guidelines are adhered to or not, as I would have to disagree with you there. And yes I have multiple replications that prove the monopole does indeed charge a battery, and is more than capable of over charging it in terms of resting terminal voltage. While I have no scope as to measure my output spike I have confirmed it to be well over 100 volts with a neon bulb.

It should become obvious to anyone who has bothered to study the device that the battery is not being charged in a conventional manner. I have a trifilar monopole which pushes 1000ma quite comfortably on the front end, of which only 100ma reaches the charging source. Both batteries are of the same size and condition (aka new) and yet the charging battery charges up SIGNIFICANTLY faster than it should on that input. The charge stored can be confirmed with repeated load tests, (which I have done) something very few people bother to do. All my results point to the charge battery charging up as well if not better than any conventional charger can manage to do. All of this from an equal voltage source. I can neither confirm nor deny that more charge goes into the charging battery in the simple replications I have done, because as you are probably aware it is quite difficult to measure the storage of a batteries capacity accurately. I can confirm this however.

There is no way the battery should charge that fast with the amount of current that flows into it. And it holds its charge. And it has been holding its charge consistently over a significant time (over 300 load tests). Only time will tell as to whether the battery is slowly being damaged. Oh and by the way, most lead acids, depending on make and model, have a maximum charging voltage of 14.5 and a floating voltage in the low 13's. Like you say its different for every model.

I think we are all getting what you are saying, so perhaps the thread should be directed more towards its original post...

PS Good to see you having a go Feynman. As Im sure you are aware the neos arent ideal. If you have trouble with it try increasing your air gap to reduce saturation of your core. Keep it up.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 07:33:30 AM by Ren »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 06:41:33 AM »
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Offline PMM Dave

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2008, 12:13:17 AM »
Yes, you all pretty much get what I am saying. It looks like the Bedini machine is easier to build than it is to test. In order to test it one would need to:-
1) Define exactly what it is supposed to do
2) Design a protocol to test what it is supposed to do
3) Build a machine and run the test

Over the several decades that the Bedini machine has been around, I have seen many people build replicas but I have never seen anybody perform any of the other steps above. I spoke with Bedini himself way back on 11/16/87, when he was at the 16220 Orange Ave, Paramount address. I am not sure how long the Bedini machine had been around at that time, but it was certainly many years. At the time he said he was about to move to Idaho (don't know if he ever did), but was not willing to demonstrate his machine. He had also given pictures of his machine to Tom Bearden. Anybody know what became of his brother Gary?

I am not averse to building a machine if steps 1 and 2 can be completed first. But otherwise, I would wind up in the same position as everybody else who has built a machine, that is unable to demonstrate either success or failure in a conclusive manner.

For step 1), I would propose the following definition:-
The Bedini machine is supposed to charge a target battery from a source battery. The total energy in watt hours available from the charged target battery exceeds the total energy in watt hours removed from the depleted source battery.

Would you agree with this definition, or, can anybody come up with a better one? My suspicion is that it will be difficult to reach consensus on this point, but we can certainly try.

Offline Feynman

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2008, 06:39:20 AM »
PMM:

Post some pics of an experiment or else go back to your armchair.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2008, 06:39:20 AM »
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Offline UncleFester

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2008, 06:18:52 AM »
Yes, you all pretty much get what I am saying. It looks like the Bedini machine is easier to build than it is to test. In order to test it one would need to:-
1) Define exactly what it is supposed to do
2) Design a protocol to test what it is supposed to do
3) Build a machine and run the test

Over the several decades that the Bedini machine has been around, I have seen many people build replicas but I have never seen anybody perform any of the other steps above. I spoke with Bedini himself way back on 11/16/87, when he was at the 16220 Orange Ave, Paramount address. I am not sure how long the Bedini machine had been around at that time, but it was certainly many years. At the time he said he was about to move to Idaho (don't know if he ever did), but was not willing to demonstrate his machine. He had also given pictures of his machine to Tom Bearden. Anybody know what became of his brother Gary?


Hey Dave. I don't know much about the Bedini either except that it appears to work as a de-sulfator. My simple SG motor with 20" bicycle wheel charges only at 700mA and yet the specific gravity tests show that the battery is being charged and NOT OVERCHARGED. It simply de-sulfates the battery and leaves it in a state as if you charged it correctly with a normal constant current charger BUT the Bedini system does it with only a minuscule amount of comparative energy. Also batteries I could not charge with a normal charger I can easily charge with the Bedini SG and the gravity reads the same as when it was new (1.300). It takes time to do this on these heavily sulfated Trojan T105's I am using, but load tests and gravity reading show that it is an effective charge. So something about the very fast high voltage spikes does something to the battery, but does not appear to damage them. In fact they appear every bit as good as they were new. I have not tested the two battery setup to see if both batteries end up with higher energy than they started with but I will do that soon after I finish testing the Carbon generator I am working on.

Groundloops charger circuit does this just as good though and I have recovered another 4 of these Trojan T105's using his circuit and his does it faster. I will try adding more coils to the SG and see if that speeds things up, but I will use Groundloops circuit for recovering batteries for the time being.

Offline alan

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2008, 12:08:27 PM »
PMM:

Post some pics of an experiment or else go back to your armchair.
Eh, he is right, he seems to be educated in the field. Without the points he mentions, it is just playing and speculating. A good testplan is important, _if_ you want to proof something.

still, good luck :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2008, 12:08:27 PM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2008, 01:03:23 PM »
Eh, he is right, he seems to be educated in the field. Without the points he mentions, it is just playing and speculating. A good testplan is important, _if_ you want to proof something.

still, good luck :)
i agree also,the test plan should be made and executed with right tools.I guess all of people working here on solid state machines will admit also,that  any productive measurement of the spikes and what it brings, should be done on an osciloscope and not on any multimeter what so ever.Multimeters are designed to work either with DC or sin wave, NOT with spikes.Besides if they are digital they have a discrete sampling time and as it was said here a spike has a big chance of being faulty digitalised...I studied computer networking recently and we had tonnes of signal processing math to deal with...Use the right tools that are designed to perform tests u r making,no discussion on that.

One of u mentioned PDA battery that was flat and then could run longer than before.It is a convincing proof of extended capacity(if usage of the PDA was as it was before).And yet of an extended capacity when comparing to a nearly dead battery.So not comparing to a new battery capacity,that might possibly drop if used in Bendini charger or may possibly increase.Agree?

Offline tinu

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2008, 06:23:15 PM »
Welcome Dave.
Sometimes dogma prevails here. Good posts, good points. For those who didn?t get it yet, Bedini is just another too long-living scam. Letting it posted is enough. Arguing doesn?t help. Wasting time and money is something you almost need to show for ?the religion?. Been there, done that. It?s simply stupid. Hang around; you?re welcome!

Cheers,
Tinu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2008, 06:23:15 PM »
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Offline UncleFester

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2008, 08:30:40 PM »
Welcome Dave.
Sometimes dogma prevails here. Good posts, good points. For those who didn?t get it yet, Bedini is just another too long-living scam. Letting it posted is enough. Arguing doesn?t help. Wasting time and money is something you almost need to show for ?the religion?. Been there, done that. It?s simply stupid. Hang around; you?re welcome!

Cheers,
Tinu

How is this a scam? Lol, it recovers batteries very well. Are you saying it's a scam because of the claims of overunity or what? Have you built a unit and seen how it recovers old batteries? I don't get your point......

Offline PMM Dave

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2008, 10:35:45 PM »
Yes, this does recover dead batteries to an extent. It does this by applying a pulsed high current to the plates, thus causing some of the lead sulphate to be removed. So a battery with diminished capacity will have an improved capacity after such a treatment, as has been known for many decades. (Albeit not as great as a new battery, since some material is lost from the plates).

But that is not the claim of the Bedini machine. It does not claim to rejuvenate batteries. It claims to provide free energy. (This is why it appears on the free energy forum, of course).

Some individuals have invested money in the technology based on the claims of free energy, believing that a new energy source has sales potential while not realising that perpetual motion machines of the first kind (which this closely resembles) are impossible.

So we have two elements:-
1) A fraudulent claim of energy production from nowhere. (Nobody has ever demonstrated this, have they?)
2) The separation of cash from investors based upon these claims.

This is my point, and this is why I call it a scam.

I freely admit that defective lead acid batteries can be rejuvenated today in the exact same way that they could 50 years ago. But that really has little to do with the topic under discussion.

Dave

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2008, 11:30:33 PM »
@PMM Dave,

You are not correct by saying "applying a pulsed high current to the plates, thus causing some of the lead sulphate to be removed".

The method used is applying a pulsed high VOLTAGE to the plates, thus causing ALL of the lead sulphate to convert back to lead. In this process the battery does NOT heat up and NO material is falling out of the plates.
There is also a low current present that charge the battery but well below the C20 rating of the battery. This is way you can both desulfate and charge the battery at the same time without any heating in the battery.

Can you provide information on how they did it 50 years ago?

Groundloop.

Offline UncleFester

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Re: Feynman makes a Bedini Motor
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2008, 11:31:47 PM »
Yes, this does recover dead batteries to an extent. It does this by applying a pulsed high current to the plates, thus causing some of the lead sulphate to be removed. So a battery with diminished capacity will have an improved capacity after such a treatment, as has been known for many decades. (Albeit not as great as a new battery, since some material is lost from the plates).

But that is not the claim of the Bedini machine. It does not claim to rejuvenate batteries. It claims to provide free energy. (This is why it appears on the free energy forum, of course).

Some individuals have invested money in the technology based on the claims of free energy, believing that a new energy source has sales potential while not realising that perpetual motion machines of the first kind (which this closely resembles) are impossible.

So we have two elements:-
1) A fraudulent claim of energy production from nowhere. (Nobody has ever demonstrated this, have they?)
2) The separation of cash from investors based upon these claims.

This is my point, and this is why I call it a scam.

I freely admit that defective lead acid batteries can be rejuvenated today in the exact same way that they could 50 years ago. But that really has little to do with the topic under discussion.

Dave

I know of only a very small percentage of the population that actually knows that a battery can be restored to new or close by de-sulfation. So the 50 year thing is known by maybe 1/10 of 1 percent of the global population...... I was not aware of this until a few years ago. Now that we are totally off grid this information is extremely important to us, and I thank Bedini and others for showing me how to do this.

Second. I have seen youtube videos of people charging two batteries via the bedini system wherein both batteries end up with higher energy than they started with. Maybe this is the proof to the claim you so vehemently protest?

Third, I am not sure if you are aware or not but this forum is under the name "OVERUNITY.COM". If you don't want to hear about or participate in experimentation along the lines of the title of this forum then it probably is not for you. In fact I know it's not for you. Most of us here are hands-on experimentors. What we do with our time and money is our own goddamn business. Adding distraction to our efforts by telling us something cannot be done just pisses people off in general because we don't give a damn what others think and don't want to skim through five miles of garbage like has been posted in the "scam" posts. On top of that most of us are very well trained in electronics, general science and have studied many of these devices for decades. So most of the time what you are trying to tell us has already been heard for many years.

 

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