# Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

## Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Alexioco on April 17, 2008, 10:57:41 PM

Title: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 17, 2008, 10:57:41 PM
I believe I have succsefully combinded two of Besslers inportant wheel, and have found an interesting movment, this alone is not the complete answer, but I deffinatly think its part of it...

MT 25 with MT 27

As weight A comes to rest at the bottom, it is lifting weight B, when weight A gets to the top, weight A falls out, lifting weight  B (Don?t forget there will be more of these leavers as one alone clearly wont lift itself...)
Take note how the lever works.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Dgraphic911 on April 22, 2008, 04:09:47 PM
Hey ALex hows the build going, anything yet

I am a big fan of combining 10 and 24, which eqauls 34 so throw that in their also  ;)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 22, 2008, 09:35:20 PM
Hey ALex hows the build going, anything yet

I am a big fan of combining 10 and 24, which eqauls 34 so throw that in their also  ;)

Well, If you talking about my swinging wheel, no, I haven?t finished it yet :P I got distracted with besslers wheel, I?m also little unsure about my swinging wheel now, I have learned a little bit though other tests.

I have found a new way to lift a weight with another weight (Not the wheel above by the way)

When the weight is at the top, it extends upwards!
When the weight is at the bottom, it retracts inward.

Both of these movement are caused through the "second weight", I have even used some blue tack (as a weight) to lift the extending weight upwards, it does not take much to lift the weight either way, basically the weights act in pairs, they come together on their way up, and apart(right angle) on the way down which results in what you see, the mechanism is simple, the second weight applies its weight in a way that causes the other weight to move, levers are very good for appling weights in ways that are stronger than other ways of using weights, for example, if you get a pencil length ways and push a weight, it is easier to push it like that, than to hold the pencil diagonally and push it...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Dgraphic911 on April 23, 2008, 05:35:02 PM
Hey alex, nice vid
But i can make cardboard pop out anywhere i want, it would look like you want us to believe the weight is popping out and that it is in the right places, we don't know where any of your weights are in the vid of the front of the disk, also because you are spinning it their is no way of seeing any real motion, if you make the weight pop out at 11 and it falls by itself to 5 then i'll be a little less harsh, Don't show me the secret, just show me something thats not being spun by hand.

Keep up the work.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 23, 2008, 08:15:53 PM
I can assure you that it moves by itself, you should know I am not trying to trick you, I will soon reveal the mechanism, soon as I have added more weights it might revolve o its own which will be a better vido still...

one of the weights is riht behind that peice you see popping out.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 24, 2008, 02:34:15 PM
Well, my new wheel idea will work with CF aswell with poping the weight upwards but, CF might or might not help it at the bottom, I would have to study that...

For the wheel and the weights, I will need quite heavy weights as my two wheels are quite heavy, on the whole, when I have about 8 weights moving, they will move the wheel easily...

P.S Let me just remind you though, dont think I have got a working wheel yet, because there is a problem I can see, even though on the video it looks like it has got to move, its a 50-50 chance, when I ahve built my large wooden wheel, tested it, weather it works or not, i will post it as we will learn alot from it...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 25, 2008, 02:31:26 PM
Ok everyone, I think my wheel works, I made another one out of cardboard with a total of 8 weights, I had to hold the wheel on its axel but it kept turning as each weight moved, it was a terrible test, so I cant say for sure, but it seemed to of worked, all I have to do now is make one out of wood and then we will really know...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: helmut on April 25, 2008, 11:35:48 PM
Ok everyone, I think my wheel works, I made another one out of cardboard with a total of 8 weights, I had to hold the wheel on its axel but it kept turning as each weight moved, it was a terrible test, so I cant say for sure, but it seemed to of worked, all I have to do now is make one out of wood and then we will really know...

Well done Alexioco
I wish you all sucsess
Keep on doing good working as Jim and alex are doing

Helmut
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 26, 2008, 12:13:50 AM
Ok everyone, I think my wheel works, I made another one out of cardboard with a total of 8 weights, I had to hold the wheel on its axel but it kept turning as each weight moved, it was a terrible test, so I cant say for sure, but it seemed to of worked, all I have to do now is make one out of wood and then we will really know...

Well done Alexioco
I wish you all sucsess
Keep on doing good working as Jim and alex are doing

Helmut

Thanks Helmut, I just have to make it out of wood now, once its complete  I will post a video of it, if it does not work then we have something to learn from it, if it does work, then we can understand why its possible :)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 30, 2008, 06:19:07 PM
(Taken off)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Dgraphic911 on April 30, 2008, 09:14:25 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think you got it
i might try and build it also, any thoughts, i like it very much
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on April 30, 2008, 09:19:59 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think you got it
i might try and build it also, any thoughts, i like it very much

Thank you :)

Dont get to excited yet, there could be a few problems, the idea seems great, I just hope it works.

Anyway I would like somhow to combined wheels MT 26 or 27 somhow with it...

The wheel is a simple thing to build, I was not to sure about showing you all yet, but I thought I would..

Also, weights A and C can be lighter than weights B and D...

Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: helmut on May 01, 2008, 02:21:55 AM
Here is the wheel you saw in the footage, except its been improved and its combinded with besslers wheels...

First Wheel: The Movement
Second wheel: If you doubled the amount of weights

When weight A falls out, it lifts weight B
When weight C falls in, it pushes up weight D

Weight B and D are connected so when one end is lifted and the other end is being pushed, they are helping each other therefore creating a constant off balance.

Thanks for sharing Alexioco
One can easily emagine,how the wheel is about to work.
This is a new way to manage weights and make them work into a wheel.
Besseler himselve would be happy to see this construction.

helmut

Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Sprocket on May 01, 2008, 05:33:33 AM
Wow, that is a beautiful idea!  Ever since you posted the vid. I have been trying to figure it out, to no avail...  I really hope it works.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 01, 2008, 03:12:19 PM
Here is the wheel you saw in the footage, except its been improved and its combinded with besslers wheels...

First Wheel: The Movement
Second wheel: If you doubled the amount of weights

When weight A falls out, it lifts weight B
When weight C falls in, it pushes up weight D

Weight B and D are connected so when one end is lifted and the other end is being pushed, they are helping each other therefore creating a constant off balance.

Thanks for sharing Alexioco
One can easily emagine,how the wheel is about to work.
This is a new way to manage weights and make them work into a wheel.
Besseler himselve would be happy to see this construction.

helmut

Thank you Helmut, I am honored for you to say this to me.
I also like to thank God for inspiring me :)
and @ P-Motion, yes they are connected so pair of pairs working, they indeed help each other to lift, what I like about this wheel is this; normally when a weight reaches the bottom, it hangs and does nothing, just another weights to lift, but now, we have that bottom weights doing work as well as using the top weight to do work, then even connecting them (pair of pairs), so we have quite a powerful effect...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 01, 2008, 03:18:01 PM
Wow, that is a beautiful idea!  Ever since you posted the vid. I have been trying to figure it out, to no avail...  I really hope it works.

Thank you for your interest Sprocket :)
I was thinking about maybe improving this thing even more, I some how want to also combine this new wheel with MT 10 and 26 or 27...
I believe that MT 27 is very important because the weight basically takes itself into the centre of the wheel, but it is not capable of lifting itself at the top, that?s where my wheel comes in...
So maybe there is a way to include MT 27 into my wheel, you see, the secret to combining theses wheels is this...

1. Look for the problems in the MT wheels
2. Look for the qualities of each wheel
3. Then use the qualities that each wheel has and replace them with the problems and you get a working wheel...

P.S for some reason, my wheel reminds me of a leaf, it looks sort of like one, and oh yeah, this is something even more strange for you, if you take my wheel, and push the bottom weights out, then look at the structure, you get a Z for Zero = something for nothing :P

Can anyone think of a name for my wheel with the words leaf and zero?

How about; Zero Falling Leaf ZFF ? As the wheel is constantly falling, but never reaching the ground...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: helmut on May 01, 2008, 03:36:02 PM
Here is the wheel you saw in the footage, except its been improved and its combinded with besslers wheels...

First Wheel: The Movement
Second wheel: If you doubled the amount of weights

When weight A falls out, it lifts weight B
When weight C falls in, it pushes up weight D

Weight B and D are connected so when one end is lifted and the other end is being pushed, they are helping each other therefore creating a constant off balance.

Thanks for sharing Alexioco
One can easily emagine,how the wheel is about to work.
This is a new way to manage weights and make them work into a wheel.
Besseler himselve would be happy to see this construction.

helmut

Thank you Helmut, I am honored for you to say this to me.
I also like to thank God for inspiring me :)
and @ P-Motion, yes they are connected so pair of pairs working, they indeed help each other to lift, what I like about this wheel is this; normally when a weight reaches the bottom, it hangs and does nothing, just another weights to lift, but now, we have that bottom weights doing work as well as using the top weight to do work, then even connecting them (pair of pairs), so we have quite a powerful effect...

Hello Alexioco
I did some Modifikation on your Wheel
What do you think about, to use a long lever to push the (B) weights with higher torque.
Now it is a matter of math to find a suitable relationship between A and B

helmut
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 01, 2008, 03:45:32 PM
Here is the wheel you saw in the footage, except its been improved and its combinded with besslers wheels...

First Wheel: The Movement
Second wheel: If you doubled the amount of weights

When weight A falls out, it lifts weight B
When weight C falls in, it pushes up weight D

Weight B and D are connected so when one end is lifted and the other end is being pushed, they are helping each other therefore creating a constant off balance.

Thanks for sharing Alexioco
One can easily emagine,how the wheel is about to work.
This is a new way to manage weights and make them work into a wheel.
Besseler himselve would be happy to see this construction.

helmut

Thank you Helmut, I am honored for you to say this to me.
I also like to thank God for inspiring me :)
and @ P-Motion, yes they are connected so pair of pairs working, they indeed help each other to lift, what I like about this wheel is this; normally when a weight reaches the bottom, it hangs and does nothing, just another weights to lift, but now, we have that bottom weights doing work as well as using the top weight to do work, then even connecting them (pair of pairs), so we have quite a powerful effect...

Hello Alexioco
I did some Modifikation on your Wheel
What do you think about, to use a long lever to push the (B) weights with higher torque.
Now it is a matter of math to find a suitable relationship between A and B

helmut

I am not quite sure where the improvement is on the wheel, if your are referring the long pole that goes straight through the axis, then my wheel already has that.

The bottom lever A on that wheel has not fallen in, but it needs to in order to lift...

Thanks for ideas and help, Alex
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: helmut on May 01, 2008, 11:13:54 PM
Have done a small animation just for fun
But i dont know wheater it works or not(http://www.superenergy.de/Animation1/Alexiocoxxwheel)

helmut

p.s.: sorry it takes me some time till i figure out,how to link the file here
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 01, 2008, 11:49:11 PM
Sounds great, I can't wait to see what you have done :)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: helmut on May 02, 2008, 12:17:27 AM
Sounds great, I can't wait to see what you have done :)
Do not expect to much
It is a turning wheel only
If i can not link it here,i will send you the file by mail

helmut
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2008, 01:43:25 AM
Does not seem to load in Irfan
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2008, 01:44:32 PM
I was walking back from college this morning and I gave my wheel some thought, when I did tests on my wheel I found that a lighter weight can lift a little more heavier weight because of the way the levers works.
Take note that weight C can only fall inward, and when it does, its push on weight D is strong because of how weight C attaches to weight D, also once weight C has fallen in, weight D cannot fall out because it gets trapped, therefore only a light weight (C) is necessary to move weight (D).
Keeping this in mind, lets now look at weights B and A, weight A again can only fall out, and its pull on weight B is strong again because of how the levers attach, therefore, weight A can be lighter than weight B.
Now we have studied this, here is the part that makes the effect even stronger still, by having a bar go straight through the axel, weights C and A are working together in shifting/driving weights D and B, which will in turn cause weight B to push down to the bottom of the wheel and the process will repeat?

Now here is the question, how do we compare the weights to each other? Well let?s go through it.

1.   Weights D and B must weight the same.
2.   Weights C and A must also weigh the same.
3.   Weighs C and A must weigh lighter than weights D and B

Next question, how much more heavy must weights D and B weigh?

Well to put it simple I would say this;

Weight D can way 5 ounces
Weight B can way 5 ounces
Together they weigh 10 Ounces

Weight C can weigh 3 ? ounces
Weight A can weigh 3 ? ounces
Together they weigh 7 ounces

So what we have is 7 ounces lifting 10 ounces.

This I believe will cause continues rotation, even with just two weights (first picture)
If we make a cross bar (second picture) then the wheel will be stronger still.

Any idea or improvements are warmly welcomed :)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 04, 2008, 12:58:03 PM
(Taken off)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 04, 2008, 02:40:14 PM
(Taken off)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: helmut on May 04, 2008, 04:51:17 PM
Ok I have made another improvement to my wheel, I have added another wheel, I belive my wheel to be complete now, tell me if you agree that my wheel is improved

thanks :)

Hi Alex
This might be a amplifier to improofe a swing to a pendulum.

But if you imagine,that the wheel will turn 360 Degrees???
Please print out a drawing and cut the wheel out,than take the paper wheel and turn it i your hands.

helmut
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 04, 2008, 09:18:39 PM
(Taken off)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 05, 2008, 04:31:14 PM
Well I thought the above wheel would be the best one as not only do the weights A and C do the lifting, but they also take an outer position on the descending side...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 05, 2008, 09:50:49 PM
Well I thought the above wheel would be the best one as not only do the weights A and C do the lifting, but they also take an outer position on the descending side...

Sorry, was thinking the rod went all the way past the axle.
You are right, it might be the best one to try. One thing I like
about it is it's simplicity. If it works, you will know why. And if it doesn't,
shouldn't take much to figure what modification you need to make.
That is one thing about it, if you are used to working with a scale
of 5 and 10 ounces, might be easy enough for you to try a build.
A lot of it does come back to what a person is comfortable working with.

Ok, I have one final question which you could help me answer :)

About this very new wheel above, even though weight A sticks out further its got to go past the bottom enough for weight B to make it to the bottom and weight D to make it to the top so they can lift, I can only think that momentum will achieve this, would you agree?
Once this is sorted, I will make my wheel...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: AB Hammer on May 06, 2008, 12:17:25 AM
@ Alex

There is one thing to remember. The amount of travel has to compliment in a form of timing to the speed drop or it will most likely keel and balance downward.

PS take a look at your sight.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 06, 2008, 04:33:56 PM
So really, the only thing to do now is to build this wheel then we can see the results....
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 06, 2008, 07:23:52 PM
So really, the only thing to do now is to build this wheel then we can see the results....

Yep :-)
That's the position I'm in.

Right then I will build my wheel, which once should I build, I am thinking about the latest one where weight A sticks out on one end, Im not sure though, what do you think?
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: AB Hammer on May 07, 2008, 12:18:55 AM
@  Alex

Try your last one posted, or the one with the gearing.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 07, 2008, 02:43:23 PM
Ok, I have an idea, I am going to build my wheel so i can take off the levers that have the weights A and C so I can have both wheels in one :) and my wheel is;
Diameter: 60 cm

I have drawn a plan so I can build my wheel now, the only thing to do now is;

1. Get the levers
2. Get the weights
3. Put it together
4. Hopfully watch it go around and around
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: AB Hammer on May 08, 2008, 12:44:57 AM
@ Alex

I wish you were over here for I could help you with your leavers. As well as save you some movement problems with slides.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 08, 2008, 06:29:33 AM
Ok I have just confirmed to myself that my wheel will work, I don?t want to say it will 100% because it is not built but this is what I have to say about my new invention which I have presented to you all.

I tested the lever mechanism (as you saw in the video) to see if the weights were capable of lifting the prime weights in order to cause rotation, and the result was good, the lever mechanism as you see in my pictures do indeed work.

Secondly, I cut a cardboard wheel out and stuck weights in the positions they take in order to cause movement, I let the wheel go and the weights do indeed move the wheel far enough in order for the process to repeat, the wheel only has to move so much and the entire mechanism starts again, also its so effective that the wheel turns more than enough for the process to repeat, all I need to do now is build this wheel, then film it and post it here as proof of a perpetual motion wheel, probably the same as Besslers as my wheel is purely from his wheels...

If my wheel for some unknown reason does not work, then hence we have something to learn from this thing?
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: fletcher on May 08, 2008, 10:02:24 AM
Treat every build & test as an opportunity to learn something Alex & you will never be dissappointed because the learning always goes on.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 08, 2008, 10:27:25 AM
I would agree, if my wheel works or not, either way, there is something to be learnt from this build weather it is simple or complicated..
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 10, 2008, 08:25:28 PM
Ok my wheel is being built as we speak  ;D

Edit: My Wheel has been built, all four levers are attached, just got to connect them so they become pair of pairs, then I need to get the weights and I'm done, the hard parts are over  8)
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Sprocket on May 10, 2008, 09:19:54 PM
Shall I initiate the drum-roll? :)

Really looking forward to seeing what happens...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 10, 2008, 11:04:12 PM
Shall I initiate the drum-roll? :)

Really looking forward to seeing what happens...

Hit it!  ;)

Yeah, Im pretty sure this will work, I have done allot of tests, oh and you wont believe what I have learned about my wheel, I stuck the weights into position on a cardboard wheel then I added an extra weight on the ascending side, and the wheel still moved enough for perpetual motion, I then added another weight on the ascending side but the wheel could not lift, so this tells me how much power I have got out of this wheel, and here it is;

My wheel of what ever size can lift a weight up that is the same weight as one of the weights used for the perpetual motion...

Example; My wheel has 8 weights, lets say each weight weighs 1 ton, altogether the wheel weights 8 tons so when my wheel is put into rotation, it can lift an extra ton up...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 10, 2008, 11:57:43 PM
Hi Alexioco,
sounds great,
can you post a few pictures and a youtube video again ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 11, 2008, 01:29:13 AM
Hi Alexioco,
sounds great,
can you post a few pictures and a youtube video again ?

Regards, Stefan.

Well I just want to finish my wheel off, then I will be making a new topic about how this wheel works, its good points, how I combined Besslers wheels etc...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 11, 2008, 02:42:41 AM
Many thanks.

If you describe it again in detail,
we could try tosimulate it in WM2D and see, if we can
get it to run there as well and then scale up much easier...
I did not yet understand how you set it up.

What is the current design ?

Good luck !
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 11, 2008, 02:58:52 AM
Many thanks.

If you describe it again in detail,
we could try tosimulate it in WM2D and see, if we can
get it to run there as well and then scale up much easier...
I did not yet understand how you set it up.

What is the current design ?

Good luck !
Regards, Stefan.

Well my wheel (which is sitting in my room waiting to be finished) is basically just a few combinations of Besslers wheels, the ones he hints at... I expect this wheel to be weak but as I stated its output is a weight stronger than the input so over unity is achieved, to make it of any use it would have to be quite big, I have absolutely no Idea how Bessler made his Bio-Directional wheel, I have my ideas but it would take study... for now though this new wheel will pick up speed until CF stops it from doing its job so the wheel will either keep picking up speed then loosing it, or a brake can be added to keep it under the correct speed, once it is made, I will post its workings, as my drawings do not explain correctly, I shall post instructions personally to those who are interested once the mechanism is perfected, I believe that up to now my wheel is correct, before making my wheel I did many cardboard tests and drew allot of drawings until I though my wheel couldn't be improved, but I suspect that a mathematician could improve my wheel allot... I don?t quite know when my wheel shall be complete, but up to now, all is going fine and photos shall be posted soon of how to construct this incredibly simple design... But my dad and I took about 2 !/2 hours making and attaching the lever system, all is made from hand to, even the way they attach which my dad thought of, over all my wheel should be done I hope by 2 weeks...

Alex
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 11, 2008, 01:36:00 PM
Hi Alex,
why did you delete your graphics that you posted already over here ?

I just wanted to have another look at it...

Maybe you can already post your cardboard test design with a few pictures,
so others could also try it ?

If you really get it to work, I guess this will get you the OverUnity Prize
as a working and selfrunning gravity wheel with additional power output
will shock the physics society and will give a revolution in the physics and energy
world...

You don?t have to be afraid, that somebody else will get it done faster than you,

the weights on the rising left side go also down from around 9 o?clock to
around 7:30 o?clock and go thus nearer the axis.

This is in addition to the action going on
from 12 oclock to  oclock, where the weight is falling and the other weight
at 1 oclock is pulled out.

So I see the major improvement to have weights lifted not just on the right falling side,
but also on the left rising side of the wheel !

This is a brand new idea and I congratulate you to this invention.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: AB Hammer on May 11, 2008, 02:18:21 PM
@ Alex

Before you get into this wheel to much, write me. I will save you some steps.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 11, 2008, 02:46:19 PM

I looked in the attachment directory for half an hour, but I did not find them..
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 11, 2008, 04:11:26 PM
@ Alex

Before you get into this wheel to much, write me. I will save you some steps.

The mechanism has been completed, all is need now is this;

1. Attach a runway for the weights to roll up
2. attach a wodden rim
3. get the rolling wheel/cylinder weights attach them, then watch the wheel perpetuate...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Sprocket on May 11, 2008, 08:30:58 PM
..... I think it is as Hartiberlin mentioned, it is your idea because you did think of it. And if someone gives you a suggestion to help you, it is still your wheel. Or in your case, Alexioco's working Bessler Wheel.
Has a nice ring to it.

It certainly has - of course if you do not like that name, how about Sprocket's Bessler Wheel (kinda catchy)! :D

On another note, why why oh why do people still delude themselves into thinking that they will be allowed to make billions from this technology - this has been known about for hundreds of years, and I have no doubt at all has been continually 're-discovered' numerous times in the interim, yet, it has NEVER been commercialised, or should I say NEVER BEEN ALLOWED to be commercialised!  Yet, every FE patent applied for suggests that someone believes that they are going prove the exception to the rule - IQ's drop to single-digits whenever greed rears its ugly head it seems...

Finally, I tried modelling Alexioco's wheel in WM2D - not possible imo.  The '2D' bit is a real limitation.  Is there any package out there that allows similar level of modelling in 3D?
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 11, 2008, 10:25:16 PM
My I just state something, I am not doing this for praise, money, and I am making this wheel for me to have in my room as proof of perpetual motion... I would like to make it useful for people, but first of all, I need this wheel to run in my room for over 2 weeks, I see there is allot of people who are interested and its nice to see people are, I myself think this wheel will work, but I am not going to say 100% it will work, if it does then I will post a video but for now we all need to be patient, I am having a hard time keeping my excitement down, I am just thinking about how to finish it off...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 11, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
Why did you delete them Alex ?
I wanted to study them this evening and now you keep us away from
helping you or understanding your technology ?

Surely we are exited too when we hear your claims...

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 11, 2008, 11:15:08 PM
Why did you delete them Alex ?
I wanted to study them this evening and now you keep us away from
helping you or understanding your technology ?

Surely we are exited too when we hear your claims...

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

What if someone takes and runs with my idea?  :-\

I mean it wont be long now until my wheel is complete..
But if your diying to see then....????
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: AB Hammer on May 11, 2008, 11:30:20 PM
Alex

It is allot harder to make work than it looks. You have to look at it as a center sliding weight, (which I have worked on and still look back at from time to time). So there for you will have to have almost double the weight shifting it than the weight shifted. Here is where the problem comes in, in a moving wheel. The ascending weight is falling back against the direction of the rotation and since it is almost the weight of the shifted arm, it alone can stop the turning, for it also moves faster from 9:00 to 6:00 point than the 12 to 3 point due to the direction of the spin and tend not to shift smoothly. That is where I was going to help you, how to smooth it's movement.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 03:54:13 AM
Hmm,
I tried now with WM2D for 5 hours,
but I did not get any rotation.

I got from 6 to 9 o?clock the lift of the one weight more to the right,
but in all other area it then compensates again...

So this attached design does not work.
I only used these green rods to connect the weights together.

Do I have to use ropes also to connect some of them ??

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 04:06:17 AM
What in this picture should be rods and
what should be ropes ??

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4514.0;attach=22595)

If these are all rods the most right rod make no sense to me...

Where are the fixed pins and what  can move ?
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 06:55:51 AM
If somebody could still remember the filenames,
I can look up,
if they are still in the attachment directory.
Normally they don?t get deleted...

Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Or if somebody still has the the files,
Thanks.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 07:44:33 AM
since I changed the forum to crypted filestorage to be able to upload the same
filename again, a member now can also erase his own attachments..
This was not so before the crypted filestorage ...

But there are no permissions NOT to let the member delete his attachment other
than forbid to him to edit his posting.

So, if nobody has stored Alex?s drawings on their harddrives and he chooses
not to post them again, they are lost.

I hate to have wasted now all the night to have tried a faulty WM2D setup...
If he didn?t not delete the files, I could have maybe shown by now
already his setup running in WM2D.
Again many hours wasted... ::) :P :-[
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 08:38:42 AM
Maybe somebody still has the pics in his
Firefox or Internet Explorer cache ?

Type:

Many thanks.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: broli on May 12, 2008, 01:39:45 PM
It's not like Alexioco died; he just got a little paranoid ;D. I'm also eager to see what he's setting up.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 02:48:11 PM
Hi All,
so nobody found the pics in his disk cache or stored it ?

Well,
maybe we can discuss thus:

Here is again attached the basic pic.

Please tell me, if all the number:
1,2,3,4
are rods or if some of these are just ropes ??

and are X, Y, Z
fixed pins on the disc
or is for example Y not fixed tothe disc ?

This is very important.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 02:55:07 PM
If all 1,2,3,4 are rods
and Y is fixed to the disc,
why does it make sense to have at all
rod 4 ???

It only would make sense, if pinY would not be fixed to the disc.

But then , is 3 and 4 a rod or are these ropes ?
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 03:09:24 PM
Okay, I made a quick GIF animation,
don?t havemuch time currently,
but so you can see, how it is supposed to
rotate ?

Will clear up this animation later and do it in WM2D.
Maybe someone can answer my above question ?
Many thanks.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 03:21:10 PM
Alex

It is allot harder to make work than it looks. You have to look at it as a center sliding weight, (which I have worked on and still look back at from time to time). So there for you will have to have almost double the weight shifting it than the weight shifted. Here is where the problem comes in, in a moving wheel. The ascending weight is falling back against the direction of the rotation and since it is almost the weight of the shifted arm, it alone can stop the turning, for it also moves faster from 9:00 to 6:00 point than the 12 to 3 point due to the direction of the spin and tend not to shift smoothly. That is where I was going to help you, how to smooth it's movement.

AB I would love your help, I would really appreciate that
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 03:30:14 PM
No pictures of my wheel are on this forum, not one, you see my tests yes, but not my wheel, and by the looks of things you are all hungry for it, in that case I?m concerned, my wheel will work, no I am not embarrassed because of a fault, my wheel will first be completed then shown, not before...

MT 25 will not work, looking at that, there is somthing wrong about the picture...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 04:44:38 PM
You have not noticed its problem then?
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 08:54:45 PM
Right I have something to say, unpin my topic, I am no longer going to come here as I am getting blamed for arguments, I'm told to say this and that, look, I came here to show you that I have found this wheel, if not so much fuss, I would of build it, and filmed it for you all, I wanted you ALL to see it, but I have had to close my forum down through the ignorance of other people on this forum, I would of loved to share this with you all, I was ready to until now... I?m sorry....

Just unpin this or delete this topic as some probably don?t even believe in my wheel, I will say this though, some people here have been very kind and helpful and I would not of found my wheel if no one here had supplied any information, but here is what I will say, study every wheel of besslers, then look for al of the good points and bad points, look at the wheels he hints at and look for the good points, if anyone has combined his wheels here but even slightly changed a part of the mechanism, then you have not correctly combined them, once you found the movement, you should be able to copy the wheels you combined, cut them out on paint and put them together...

MT 25 Can't work has the weights that are lifted make no difference in camparison to the lifting weights..

Sorry it had to end like this...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: broli on May 12, 2008, 09:42:45 PM
You have to f-ing kidding us right? Why did you all of a sudden change your mind and what are you even talking about "people telling me what to say". Did someone contact you and threaten you, did some mib show up on your doorsteps or maybe some money was offered....You were the guy always getting help from people here with any wheel design you had and this is how you repay people. Sorry but then you're no good than the same poeple that don't believe in pm and ou. You abused the community and when you had your thing up and going you just gave everyone the middle finger for no reason. Ofcourse there's the other possiblity of having it setup and it not working, you felt the pressure was too high and just tried to make the people believe you were angered  ::). I guess pm is indeed a curse driving people paranoid.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 09:58:10 PM
Ok I'm sorry, I have carmed down now and yes you all should know, may I ask a single question first though, would you all wait for me to finish my wheel? I just tested it and it worked, it revolved twice then some levers fell apart so it stoped :p
I need a better way, other than small nails to fasten the levers

and P Motion, this it total my idea, only if i add your pully it will be some of yours... if you disagree then I will not post my wheel
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 10:19:28 PM
Hi Alex, when I am again at my home PC, I will change the title of the thread to your name.
What name do you wish ?
Alex?s Bessler wheel or someting simular ? Maybe including your last name ?

Then everybody will know, that you are the inventor.

Great to hear that it worked already for 2 revolutions.

Please try to share again your principle, so we can see, if we can help you to y to find the best and most efficient design.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 10:23:35 PM
Thank you :)

and by the way, i made a mistake i didnt mean two revolutions but the wheel started turnging and a weight rised, the motion continued then another weights rised ready to continue so two weights rised but then the levers lipped off the nails, funny as I was using pennies to turn my wheel :P oh yeah and also it worked with 1 pence pieces lifting two pence pieces :)

If you recall my post

Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery

That will be fine :)

I am now going to write about my wheel then demonstrate it on a video how it works and what needs adjusting, give me a few days.

edit: Infact i will try and get footage tonight...
Title: Re: Alex rediscovered the Bessler wheel
Post by: fletcher on May 12, 2008, 10:41:00 PM
Alex .. build your wheel - learn from it OR teach the rest who want to know once its built - don't get sucked into the mind games - keep focused & stay true to your word & you will have your integrity intact whatever the result of the build.

Also, be prepared for the best & the worst result of the testing, though its always hard to contain the excitement leading up to a crucial test - good luck to you.
Title: Re: Alex rediscovered the Bessler wheel
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 11:12:55 PM
I knew there was somthing funny, I remember you sending me message about conecting the weights in a certain way (which was already done as one could see in my drawing) you were trying to make it look like you just told me that, so I was right, and nope, my wheel how it is now is purly my idea, not once has your ideas come into play into my wheel, you have suggested other things which I admit and thanks but I have not used youyr ideas in anyway, my wheel is exactly the same as I started before I even posted my wheel on this forum so I'm not going to wait and see what the Admin has to say...
Title: Re: Alex rediscovered the Bessler wheel
Post by: broli on May 12, 2008, 11:26:50 PM
Looks like history has a nice way of repeating itself. Can't we just all get along instead of accusing each other of theft because NOONE CARES. This is why projects should be open source or else this kind of unproductive/unconstructive/childish behaviours arise from pure greediness. Ofcourse I'm not in that position to  give a valuable opinion, but I pray to god that greedyness will never stain my vision.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2008, 11:41:24 PM
Okay, I have renamed the thread now.

Looking forward to your new postings Alex.

@PMotion.
Will try tommorow,
have to go to be now.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Alex rediscovered the Bessler wheel
Post by: Alexioco on May 12, 2008, 11:52:20 PM
Looks like history has a nice way of repeating itself. Can't we just all get along instead of accusing each other of theft because NOONE CARES. This is why projects should be open source or else this kind of unproductive/unconstructive/childish behaviours arise from pure greediness. Ofcourse I'm not in that position to  give a valuable opinion, but I pray to god that greedyness will never stain my vision.

You are right my friend, greediness is wrong...

Ok P-Motion hold on, lets se if we can sort this out, in a few words, tell me what you have to say about the wheel I posted, just a few words.

I don?t want this to become an argument, I will say this;

I have been little harsh in taking off my drawings and stirring people up, I am sorry for this, and in return, I shall put my wheel back on with a description and a video.

Now P-Motion: You according to Alan are changing your posts, you even said to me to do it too because you have seen others do it, now lets get this sorted, we both need to apologies to everyone on here, once we have, lets just work as a team on this new wheel invention which I couldn?t of got with information here and through Gods grace...

lol it makes me want to laugh as we are all here arguing like mad men about something that is supposed to be impossible  :D
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 12:06:17 AM

Edit: Go on, you can do it :)
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: AB Hammer on May 13, 2008, 01:31:42 AM
Like I said before, I am alway ready to help you, and I think this string is a good place to start.
I am posting one of my non runners of a push pull slide weight system. This is the closest that I have done to what you are building as far as I can tell. But this won't consist of my breakthroughs. My work today consist of the prime mover design. And that is the one thing I will not show on a public forum. So for this help that I am doing for you. You call the shots on this project, I am here to help and build on open forum.

On the wheel you will see slides, these are to keep the movement from locking up. The arms are for condensing and separating the arm are for pulling and pushing the slide weights. One set on each side. The holes in the flat bar are for weights or other possible attachments.

I also thank you Alex for clearing up the other problem, but don't give up on your forum, but this can give a little time to make it easier to use. Thanks
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: AB Hammer on May 13, 2008, 02:32:33 AM
Greetings Alex

Here is another photo of a different angle of my wheel. I do have one thing to say on your design work. If it is open sourced you will not be able to patent it, yet it may already be to late. And if you want to work with Ralph on this, I am sure he would give some warnings about posting open forum as well. I trust him with any of my designs as well, and he is the only other person outside of my family who will know what I am doing.  But all and all it is up to you, and I have made my offer, but I will not show any of my personal projects outside of the one posted here, for I don't want them abused.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: sm0ky2 on May 13, 2008, 02:58:22 AM
@P-M

If those lines in M25 are in fact strings,  the  2 strings that go around the "pulleys" - as you would have it - are to be conected radially, between 2 opposite center-weights. the center weights have the leverage.
as the heavier weight falls (as an [upper] fixed weight reaches 12:00) this pulls the center-weight (at 6:30)
INWARDS to towards the center.
As this happens the heavier weight, as comes around past 6:00, is pulled DOWNWARDS, back towards 6:00 because the center-weight is pulling UP on it with **3x the force of the weight + GRAVITY helping it out**  it moves not only downwards, but also inwards, as does the center-weight, creating an imbalance that keeps the wheel turning.

it appears that this wheel may indeed function as it is drawn.
This is not the same as Alex's mechanism. - i assume he is using the other levers from the other wheel, with a portion of this wheel to create what he has - im only imagining this by looking at the 2 drawings. It should be interesting when he is done.

I dont think arguing over who's part is whos is really of any importance to the final goal. We want a wheel that turns itself, plain and simple - and if we can accomplish this, i think the majority of the credit should go to the dead guy who left us these drawings.

this senseless squabbling is just slowing us down, from achieving the "impossible".  - a feat in and of itself which should be more fulfilling than who gets credit for making Bessler's wheel work.

** - the force applied (3x) was gathered the triangulation of the movable parts in their shown dimensions, and under the assumption weights are of equal mass. - this may have adverse effects on the momentum of the falling weights, and thus the momentum imparted by them onto the wheel - which would be a possible deadly flaw**
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Sprocket on May 13, 2008, 04:27:31 AM
Greetings Alex

Here is another photo of a different angle of my wheel. I do have one thing to say on your design work. If it is open sourced you will not be able to patent it, yet it may already be to late. And if you want to work with Ralph on this, I am sure he would give some warnings about posting open forum as well. I trust him with any of my designs as well, and he is the only other person outside of my family who will know what I am doing.  But all and all it is up to you, and I have made my offer, but I will not show any of my personal projects outside of the one posted here, for I don't want them abused.

You have made it clear time and time again that you will not be releasing publically any info on your designs, and that is your perogative, but what is becoming evident is that you do not want Alex to release any of his info either - to be blunt, you are coming across as someone who considers himself as a kind of high-priest of a forbidden technology, and is sworn to keep it from the yokels.

Grow up!
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 06:46:45 AM
AB Thanks for offering help, Yes, my wheel is combined from the following
MT 15
MT 14
MT 25

MT 10
MT 27

To make my wheel even better.

Now I have some very exciting new for you all, I have found something VERY interesting in the MT's which I know for a fact you will like, again I wouldnt of found this if it were not for God...
I'm not going to tell you, Im going to help you work it out, I will go step by step with you, so here it goes..

Bessler commented on 56 if his wheels right?
Now go through the ones he commented on until you find a wheel that he talks about placing the mechanism around the axel/shaft.

When someone has found the wheel, post it on here then I will carry on...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: rlortie on May 13, 2008, 07:14:25 AM
Members,

I have set back while this three page ordeal has meandered on!  At no time did I offer input and my name was never mentioned until I seen this:

[Right now, I am not sure what to think. I do think I am in a hostile situation.
I did send my SBC to the local editor. rlortie had tried taking credit for an idea I had. So I don't trust him.
Difficult to say how things might go now.]

P-motion,  LittleB, P-4, Jim L. or what ever name you choose to cover your tracks!  Just when and where did I try to take credit  for an idea you had.  I did not know you had any credibility. It is my opinion you have been banned from more forums than you have had viable ideas. I find your remark slanderous as well as  deformation of my reputation. Now put up, retract or shut up.  we have already been through this before on another forum, you were  banned, not once but twice!

To the rest of any interested parties;  I have not at any time initiated any contact with Alexioco. that is not to say that I am not aware of the design, I just do not stick my nose where it is not asked for or wanted.

This I believe is either my 4th or  5th post here in 3 years, 1 month and a few days  of being a member, may the limelight shine on me!

Ralph
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 10:32:29 AM
Ok i'm just gonna show you all some stuff Ihave found and other stuff I have ;earned through other people, my last one is the best one, I found it last night...

Help would be greatly apreciated, anyoe got idea on some over the below stuff then please post, thank you

P.S I dont take credit for all of this, but i do for the very bottom one and a few others...

Working out Besslers Code

MT 10

? Bessler wrote:
MT10... This is exactly the previous model, except that the weight-poles are more curved and longer. The principle is good, but the figure is not yet complete until I delineate it much differently at the appropriate place and indicate the correct handle-construction.

When he says "correct handle-construction" this could be a play on words;
Correct - Incorrect
Right - Wrong
Right - Left

What he might be saying is that his wheel is incorrect/wrong/left and that it should be Correct/right.

Meaning that MT 10 is upside down and backwards.

(http://i32.tinypic.com/2dbnplf.jpg)

? Bessler wrote:
Seen sideways or full face it is as glorious as a peacock's tail.

Yes, the correct wheel does look like a peacock?s tail...

MT 11

? Bessler wrote:
MT11... This figure is doubled, as one can see, and the form does not involve much, but there is more in it than meets the eye, as will be seen when I pull back the curtain and disclose the correct principle at the appropriate place, as mentioned previously.

Again, MT 11 could be upside down and backwards

(http://i29.tinypic.com/21kfl7n.jpg)

Peacocks tail...

MT 14

? Bessler wrote:
MT14... This invention is somewhat speculative, and the internal cross-tensions with the weights are movable; therefore, when the weights raise up one another, the cross-tensions are pulled up with their weights at the same time. What is objectionable about this model, what to learn from it and how it can and may be used, will all be treated later.

MT 14 has something all the other wheels have, and that?s the outer weights are connected to each other which act as one big weight which in this case are for lifting the inner weights.

(http://i28.tinypic.com/23icc9t.jpg)

MT 15

? Bessler wrote:
MT15... This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensions are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the external ends. From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the superior weight.

Mt 15 works in the same way as MT 14 except that the cross tensions have longer poles attached to them with weights at the end in order to create an off balance...

Note that the wheel has been drawn backwards which might mean it needs to be turned the other way, also the wheel must be very important to be the odd wheel out...

Also the inner weights are bent at an angle like the weights in MT 13 and also the inner weights are not connected to each other like the weights in MT 14.

(http://i30.tinypic.com/110ylms.jpg)
(http://i31.tinypic.com/23lehac.jpg)

MT 18

? Bessler wrote:
MT18... This is the previous spring-model, and it seems to be good, but seeming is different from being. In the meantime, the principle should not be disdained or entirely disregarded, for it says more than it shows. I, however, will show more than speak of it at the appropriate place.

In MT 18 he uses springs, and it could be that what Bessler is not saying is that when  the weights that are attached to the end of the springs are near the top of the wheel, the springs fling the weight upwards and over because the springs are not in their natural position...

(http://i29.tinypic.com/nzhy7b.jpg)

MT 19

? Bessler wrote:
MT19... This figure may be called a mere demonstration. There are nothing but levers with weights at the front ends of the levers, and if they are not very useful, they are also not harmful most of the time. A good friend, however, was violently injured by them. I cannot discuss it further. He endured more than I can mention here.

The weights not being harmful is a good thing, so it must be correct how the weights are facing inwards, but then Bessler contradicts himself by saying his friend was violently injured by one, could this mean that the weights and levers represent something?

(http://i25.tinypic.com/2118ocy.jpg)

MT 20

? Bessler wrote:
MT20... Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front.

The levers and weights might represent horses, the weights being their heads and the levers being their bodies and the little outward weights could be a person, his friend who was violently injured by a horse? Bessler then goes on to say to harness the horse in front, his friend (Little outward weight) must be sitting on the horse backwards; he needs to face the front...

(http://i30.tinypic.com/2cr4ie8.jpg)

MT 24

? Bessler wrote:
MT24... This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of separate levers with weights. Between the weights are small iron poles with screw threads. The poles fall inward when the levers close. There is something one must learn first before one can grasp and correctly understand the good quality of the invention.

One must learn something, could this be that;
1. When the weights close at the bottom, the pole that it pushed up cannot fall back down as the pole becomes traped through the weight.
2. The weights can be lighter than the poles as the lever mechanism is positioned in a strong and effective way?

(http://i26.tinypic.com/w1pgg8.jpg)

MT 25

? Bessler wrote:
MT25... This is the previous model except for some differences. It is sketched with longer poles. There is something misleading about the diagram, for the poles, when coming out, must not project so far out but must bend somewhat further inwardly. There is more to it than one supposes; one must study the diagram extensively.

Could it be that the hidden quality in the wheel is that the weights are some how connected by a chord or chain?

(http://i26.tinypic.com/2qjaqud.jpg)

MT 27

? Bessler wrote:
MT27... This is the previous model slightly larger and altered: A are the levers interrupted at B and having a heart-weight at C, and D are the straps, or cords, and chains. It needs no further, lengthier explanation. This view shows what the thing might do if several things of this sort were placed next to one another along an axle-shaft.

When Bessler says
"This view shows what the thing might do if several things of this sort were placed next to one another along an axle-shaft."
Well isnt it obvious that the wheel will not turn as there is also an agumented problem in this wheel, so what is he really trying to get at, well if you copy the mechanism equally four times around the axel/shaft you get this MT 137, but only an 8 pointed star, not a 12 pointed star like MT 137.

(http://i28.tinypic.com/2uf6e12.jpg)
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 13, 2008, 12:22:55 PM
Hi Alex,
where did Bessler comment each of these designs ?

So does it now work ?
Did you already record a video ?
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Gustav22 on May 13, 2008, 12:55:46 PM
Hi Alexioco,
I always wanted to tell you, that I liked your avatar very much.
...Help would be greatly apreciated, anyone got idea on some over the below stuff then please post, thank you ...
I think a sliding rod - crossing the center of the wheel's axis - would be helpful.
This guy Archer Quinn is making a lot of publicity for this set up, lately. I stole the idea from him. I hope he does not mind.

The attached diagram depicts one proposed arrangement (in two positions during one revolution of the wheel),
crosses denote joints.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 12:58:17 PM
Hi Alex,
where did Bessler comment each of these designs ?

So does it now work ?
Did you already record a video ?
Many thanks.

Well here is the latest info on my wheel then

Last Night I improved my wheel so now that the weights lift at 12 and retract at 6, I'm hoping that my i will have my weights in today so I can finish off my wheel, its possilbe I might have a few tech problems with my wheel, here is a reason i cant properly test it yet, My mechanism is attached on the wheel but because only one side of the wheel is done, when the wheel is put on an axel the wheel leans to one side creating to much friction, I have finished everything I can do now, all is needed is the rim the other part of the wheel then the weights...

Bessler commented on 56 of his drawings, have you not read them?

here we go: http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20#MT_001
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 13, 2008, 02:57:25 PM
Hi,
is there any original PDF file of the
Machinen Tractate document
http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html

?

As I can read old German language,
I would like to have a look at the original description.

The other original file
Triumphans Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum (Monografie) (183 Seiten)

did not contain all the drawings, when I remember correctly ?
( currently it can not be downloaded.. seems their server is down...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: dani1 on May 13, 2008, 03:03:53 PM
Any similarity discovered?
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: dani1 on May 13, 2008, 03:16:58 PM

------------------

Here you can buy the books:
http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/books_for_sale.htm
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 13, 2008, 04:23:36 PM
Hi All,
MT24 and MT25 are interesting,
cause they incorporate the lifting of the weights on the left side closer to the axis
via theirrods-lever action from the weights above onb the left side...
in addition to the fall out of the weights and lifting another weight on the right side..

But again I miss my own principle, how I understand a gravity wheel
can only work is that there are no springs which store the movement
( that means store the potential energy) of the weights.

When a weight has gone down in the gravity field without being attached to a spring,
its potential energy has been converted totally to kinetic energy and its
energy has been "lost".

But if it is attached to a spring, it can debalance a wheel,
the wheel can accelerate and generate energy
and then the weight is retracted via the spring and
the cycle can begin again.
Only this way I think it is possible to win energy from the gravity field.

In all here presented MT designs and proposals from Alex and the others I miss the springs...

Maybe this is the missing link Besser did not show in the Machinen Tractates ?

By the way, where did John Collins get the original Maschinen Tractates from ?
Why does he hold the copyrights to it and can sell it ?

Is there no original copyright free version ?
until now and it must be in the open source public domain...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 05:05:34 PM
I havent got my weights today, im loosing exitment now, i need toget these weights fast
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: AB Hammer on May 13, 2008, 06:23:13 PM
@P-motion

Your claims, have been weighed, and measured, and you have been found wanting.

@ Alex

I sent you an email from my private email.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 09:02:55 PM
well, the levers do raise on my wheel and there is more to it than I could show in the drawing...
Title: Re: MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 13, 2008, 09:04:29 PM
Thank you :)

and by the way, i made a mistake i didnt mean two revolutions but the wheel started turnging and a weight rised, the motion continued then another weights rised ready to continue so two weights rised but then the levers lipped off the nails, funny as I was using pennies to turn my wheel :P oh yeah and also it worked with 1 pence pieces lifting two pence pieces :)

Hi Alex,
couldn?t you just show this in a short youtube video ?
Why wait for the weights to arrive ?

I am going now to test a few new ideas this evening and will post
a video of my trials..

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 09:18:06 PM
But I need the weights so they can lift eachother, by the way, no one seems to have taken any notice what I found about MT 137
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: broli on May 13, 2008, 09:30:11 PM
I'm also trying to get myself in these wheels club but with little effort  :D. I don't understand the working of wheel 137 at all but I was thinking of using it in a different way, maybe I should make a 3d render of it to clarify.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 13, 2008, 09:38:03 PM
What i am going t odo is study every wheel and write down how they all work just like bessler did next to his 56 wheels...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: sm0ky2 on May 13, 2008, 10:22:24 PM
in case anyone is wondering at this point::  Where can i find these MT-drawings everyones refering to??

well, here's a nice link that shows (most of) them.

http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html (http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html)

Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: rlortie on May 13, 2008, 10:31:50 PM
But I need the weights so they can lift eachother, by the way, no one seems to have taken any notice what I found about MT 137

Having  built and played with MT 137 with many variations, I noticed, You will find some but not all pictures in my www photo gallery.

Ralph
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: rlortie on May 13, 2008, 11:46:29 PM
What i am going t odo is study every wheel and write down how they all work just like bessler did next to his 56 wheels...

Alex,

Are you going to write down how they work, or why they won't work. The  latter being the intention of the 54 he did complete. They were intended for the students of his never founded school to study and learn the reasoning of why they did not function as the inventor proposed.

To my thinking the ones he indicates hold potential for improvement are 9, 10,11, 14, 18, 24, 25, and 27... 15 is questionable as he states "nothing of the prime driver is to be seen here.

I would suggest emphasizing research on these and forget the rest until after you have exhausted all hopes of finding what is missing. Such as his statements of pulling back the curtain and connectivity.

Ralph
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 13, 2008, 11:47:49 PM

Maybe this is the missing link Besser did not show in the Machinen Tractates ?

By the way, where did John Collins get the original Maschinen Tractates from ?
Why does he hold the copyrights to it and can sell it ?

Is there no original copyright free version ?
until now and it must be in the open source public domain...

G'day Stefan and all,

I have done quite a bit of research into the so-called Maschinen Traktate, a title coined by Collins, as he admits. He does not disclose the original title of the work.

I have contacted various archives in Germany and a number of scholars that specialise in Bessler's era, there does not seem to be a single reference that indicates that Bessler ever published such a work.

My guess is that it is an attempt by someone some time later to figure out how Bessler's wheel might have worked. Some of the drawings appear to use technology that was not available in Bessler's time such as sophisticated gears and rack and pinion arrangements.

I will keep on digging a little more, but at this stage I doubt the document's authenticity.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: fletcher on May 14, 2008, 12:24:35 AM
That's correct Hans - Bessler never published his woodcut pictures with annotations - John Collins did eventually win approval [& paid some fee ?] from a museum/university in Germany to publish these particular papers, IIRC - he did indeed coin the name Machinen Tractate [MT as it is called] since Bessler had not named it himself [they were in draft loose leaf form] - Collins MT has a copywrite because they are his works & translations found on the wiki [which he makes freely available] - his book MT for sale includes photocopies of the Bessler originals & the original hand drawn German annotations with Collins English translations alongside.

Collins got the woodcut printed designs etc from the estate papers of Bessler - after his death his second wife donated them for posterity - the MT's are a part of a larger collection including an inventory of his possessions [including workshop] after his death, which aslo makes for interesting reading.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 14, 2008, 12:56:41 AM
Thanks fletcher,

Ralph has just sent me a PM. Following the threads he gave me I found out that there is a collection of papers donated by Bessler's heirs to the University Library of Kassel, which is where Collins obtained his photocopies.

I will be in touch with the library. Even so, from what I gather, there is no certainty that the drawings and annotations are from Bessler himself.

I guess time will tell.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: fletcher on May 14, 2008, 01:47:08 AM
No problem Hans - while there is no absolute certainty there is balance of probability - his handwriting style has been analyzed as the same [it's pretty horrible & hard to read, but distinctive] & the old German is of the period, IIRC.

Stefan should be able to read it as well as yourself I have no doubt !
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 03:03:36 AM
Hi Hans and all,
here is some help:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/messages/826.html

As I don?t have much time currently and either want to do my own simulations
maybe you can call them and arrange some copies being sent.
Also there are different books Besser published..

Anyway, back to my WM2D now..
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 03:22:17 AM
Here you can at least see a few original drawings and his handwriting:

http://www.lulu.com/browse/preview.php?fCID=593584

I am just trying to read the old German Fraktur handwriting,
which is not easy at this low resolution scan,
but the english translation is definately very sloppy...

Especially in drawing 1 there is  a formular A.B.C.= Y
is not translated correctly over here:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20

Well, would be good to have highres scans of all the original
handwritings and texts to it.

As I do also Anchestor research I am a bit used to read old German
fraktur fonts..

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 03:42:13 AM
Funny how wrongly the translation is also for MT2:
at:
http://static.lulu.com/items/volume_43/593000/593584/2/preview/book/page0010.png

It must be:

No.2: Diese Erfindung mit Kugeln und schr?gen geraden Linien haben viele,
fast die meisten Mobilis, vor allen Dingen....

now the following words are too hard to read in this small resolution...

So translatetd into English this would mean:

Number 2: This invention with balls ( spheres) and with straight tilted (beveled) lines
have many or are part of most of the perpertual motion machines, of course...

So compare this to:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20
Where you can almost understand nothing...

Had been translated by a guy, who could not read German fraktur probably...

So we really need high resolution scans...

Also there is a formular at the end of this text saying:

2 + 3, 2 + 6 and 2 + 7

If I would have the high res scans, I could probaly dechifr? the whole German
fraktur text...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: fatspidr on May 14, 2008, 04:08:48 AM
Hey Stefan,

I imagine that if you went over to Besslerwheel.com and offered your help to John Collins and the others who were trying their best to translate Bessler's writings they'd appreciate it.  The majority of them seem to be open to suggestions and corrections.  There's a nice wiki there with the MT drawings....you could sign up, comment and offer your version of the translation.

Don't think of that site as competition....I look at both of your sites as being complimentary.  The more the merrier.

Just a thought,

David
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 04:10:53 AM
Okay, maybe with the forumlar I was wrong, as the rest of the text was too small to read
and dechiffr?,
maybe it really meant some pages of another book that the
translation here
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20
has:

"No. 2: Almost unanimously the mobilists for whom the spheres were the main principle have chosen a figure for the most part like this one; such a figure has already been encountered in various books on mathematics and mechanics, and from the figure the mathematicians generally showed the impossibility of perpetual motion, just as though one could not bring forth a better figure as evidence. In particular, Jungnickel, in his almost peculiar book titled Key to Mechanics, pages 243, 246 and 247, has presented three such machines and intended to prove and enforce the impossibility of perpetual motion. Sturm also uses this figure, and even the late Leopold uses it in his Machine Treatise, of which he prepared 8 sections but did not complete because of his death."

- Johann Bessler
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 14, 2008, 04:55:29 AM
G'day all,

As Stefan pointed out the old German is difficult to read. The printed books are, as Stefan says in Fraktur, a German print script derived from Gothic, sometimes erroneously called old English.

The handwriting in the Maschinen Traktate is an entirely different matter. Here it is written in an old German script that was later a little modernised in 1911 and then became known as Suetterlin. It was officially discontinued in 1941 but continued to be taught in schools. My generation was the last to have it as a compulsory subject. It is no longer taught. It is illegible to someone who has not been taught the script.

I am including here a picture of the script as well as a page from the Maschinen Traktate to let you see what difficulties any translator faces with these documents.

Hans von Lieven

Sample of Suetterlin.

(http://keelytech.com/overunity/mashinentraktate.jpg)

Maschinen Traktate (Collins)

Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 06:04:21 AM
Hi Hans and all,
yes, Bessler used a mix of S?tterlin and old German Fraktur
as it seems.

S?tterlin is very difficult to read, but one can get used to read it
after some learning..
Especially the "e" and the "n"
are often mixed up.

Bisweilen wird jede Form der deutschen Kurrentschrift als S?tterlinschrift bezeichnet.
Dies liegt wohl daran, dass die S?tterlinschrift diejeniege Form der deutschen
Kurrentschrift ist, deren Name am bekannstesten ist.
Trotzdem ist diese Bezeichnung unzutreffend. Denn es gab die
deutsche Kurrentschrift schon lange vor Ludwig S?tterlin.

Hard to translate, but I am getting again used to it...
See:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Kurrentschrift

Well after much investigation I did find in 2003 the testatment from
my grand-grand-grandfather from 1894, which I have found
in 2003 in the Marienburg ( today Malbork-castle archive, Poland) archive
(I was happy, that it was not destroyed during WorldWar II)
and several other documents from the land register books of this
timeframe and area. (When Marienburg and district Stuhm still belonged to West-Prussia)

Then I really had to learn these totally unknown to me "fonts" from this
former German timeframe..

To the most Germans today it just looks like secretive scrible and

I also have to adopt every time my eyes again and sometimes have to pause, and
rethink, what some letters mean.
This together with the bad handwriting style of this former timeframe,
when there were no typewriters yet existent, it is a real hard job sometimes to
dechiffr? old documents.
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 06:09:38 AM
P.S:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Lessing_Kleist-Brief.jpg

Something like this is really hard to read
in this resolution and with this "lazy" handwriting style...

Could take half an hour to get all the words right,
sometimes only from the contens-interpretation..
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: John Collins on May 14, 2008, 08:31:22 AM
Hi all, following an interesting email from Stefan I have decided to respond here.

My interest has always been to the put as much of Bessler's works into the public eye as possible to try to generate some interest and eventually a successful working reconstruction of the original wheel by Bessler.

But I found the text in MT which is handwritten, almost impossible to read but I was able to use, in a limited way, the work of another translator, based in the USA, but also made some of my own corrections in the process.  And that is the way I see the understanding of MT - as a work in progress.  I intended that the text should be corrected and improved as time goes by and have no problem with criticism when people find that what I have written is wrong, at least it gets the subject talked about and that is the most important thing.

Unfortunately I don't have any high res versions of the original papers although my own digital versions may be slightly better than those which have appeared here, but the size of them may prove too big to post.

As for copyright and ownership issues, I had to beg the owners of the original works for permission to publish the document I call MT (Maschinen Tractate) and they eventually gave me permission for a limited number of copies.  I only own the copyright on my versions of MT.

I should point out that the title Maschinen Tractate which I have ascribed to this collection of drawings may not be the one that Bessler  was referring to when he wrote to Peter the Great and offered him an MT as a book he could have in addition to the wheel.  That book was intended to include descriptions of real machinery such as Mills etc.

Doubt has been voiced about whether Bessler wrote the text and did the drawings in our MT;  I have no such doubts and will be able to offer conclusive evidence in a while.

I have never posted here before but am willing to take part if anyone has any questions to direct to me, but please allow me a day or so to get familiar with the forum.

Best wishes to all,

John Collins

Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 14, 2008, 09:02:06 AM
@John Collins,

Welcome to the forum John, it is nice to see a dedicated researcher such as you here. If you need any help with some of your old German or medieval Latin texts Just ask.

@Stefan,

Congratulations on your command of Suetterlin. It is good to see someone of your generation taking an interest. A shame really, I hate to see this part of our cultural heritage being lost.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: dani1 on May 14, 2008, 09:48:00 AM
...
In all here presented MT designs and proposals from Alex and the others I miss the springs...

Maybe this is the missing link Besser did not show in the Machinen Tractates ?
...

Yes, indeed there must be springs
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: John Collins on May 14, 2008, 10:15:48 AM
Thank you Hans.  I might well call on your expertise for some Latin texts.

John Collins
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 14, 2008, 03:25:08 PM
What i am going t odo is study every wheel and write down how they all work just like bessler did next to his 56 wheels...

Alex,

Are you going to write down how they work, or why they won't work. The  latter being the intention of the 54 he did complete. They were intended for the students of his never founded school to study and learn the reasoning of why they did not function as the inventor proposed.

To my thinking the ones he indicates hold potential for improvement are 9, 10,11, 14, 18, 24, 25, and 27... 15 is questionable as he states "nothing of the prime driver is to be seen here.

I would suggest emphasizing research on these and forget the rest until after you have exhausted all hopes of finding what is missing. Such as his statements of pulling back the curtain and connectivity.

Ralph

Ralph, I would absoultly agree on those wheels you mentioned and i am going to write how they are ment to work, then say why they dont, but first I will completly study the wheels I belive are very important...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: broli on May 14, 2008, 03:35:32 PM
So does that mean the wheel you were working on worked or didn't?
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 04:17:33 PM
Hi Alex,
does this mean, you are now sure your wheel does not work and you must study it further ??
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 14, 2008, 04:26:02 PM
No it means that if my wheel doesnt work, i have mroe to look at, im posting my new topic now, get ready...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Dgraphic911 on May 14, 2008, 07:38:18 PM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4683.0.html

he's redirected us to his new thread. for those that might have only bookmarked this one, or maybe noone cares anymore. ;)

thanks archer, sorry alex

It is always good that these threads at least spark new information to be shared and renewed interest from members who may have become tired. I was ready to eat lots of cilantro and warm milk. Thank goodness that can wait.

Lets make sure the translation discussion of the MT's and their validity continues. New thread OR ?????? do we dance on this one?

D
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 14, 2008, 07:45:59 PM
My new thread is the topic that teaches the movement, this thread can be closed now...
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Dgraphic911 on May 14, 2008, 07:57:02 PM
Thanks for your permission, how quickly the student becomes the teacher, 40 views so far and noone has signed up for class.

I read this humbling statement from ED at bw.com and will paste it here

FROM 2005

it should be read everytime we think we have it

"Here are a few signs that someone who claims to have a working wheel or device are either a fraud, on the road to becoming a fraud, or just lying.

A - Things to look out for:

1 - They won't give out any details, photos, videos, etc. but keep insisting they have a working device.

2 - They keep exploring other devices (ideas?) even though not even ONE of their "working" devices has been proven. This even goes for some "companies" on the web. Selling many different "working" plans/devices, etc.

3 - They claim the reason they don't want to "tell all" is they are afraid, yet they continue to draw attention to themselves through posts and/or little bits of "evidence" in the form of images, more ideas, crappy videos, advice to us non-havers-of-knowledge, etc. but ultimately things that still show or prove nothing.

4 - They have images, videos and/or a flash animation of some kludge of an idea that is hard to prove simply and they claim it works, but this "evidence" still proves nothing.

5 - They have a working device but don't want to release anything yet because it doesn't fit all of Bessler's clues.

6 - They remote viewed the data for a working device, but it would be too insulting to the entities to reveal anything publically at this time.

7 - They already have a working device now or they are very close, but they want to release it on a specific date...like July 4th...because it will be great for the whole world to be independant.

B - Things to keep in mind:

1 - We only need ONE working device folks! ONE.

2 - Even a video of a working device can be faked easily. Software, equipment and skills needed these days is easy to come by, either directly or through someone else who has and knows how to use them. Making a video of a person sitting at a table or in a workshop with a "working" device can be done in an afternoon with inexpensive equipment/software. As for a crummy video claiming to show a working device, if someone takes the time and has the equipment/skill to capture that device and display it with some technology, they should be able to show more detail, otherwise it's just slight-of-hand for some agenda (money, fame, "look-at-me", more hits to their web site, "proof" they did it first for later once someone else really has a working device, etc.)

3 - The only real way to prove you have a working device is if you can supply the correct information to allow others to replicate it PERIOD. You can't even prove an internal combustion engine works by just showing a car drive down the street. Sure, you can prove a car can drive down the street, but how do we know there is not someone in the engine compartment pedalling like Fred Flintstone?

4 - People are too willing to believe, follow, or give credit to someone who claims they have a working device or idea. Don't cults form this way? Seriously, what is up with this? Are people that incapable/unwilling to build, lazy, don't have time/money/skill/knowledge...but really, really want free energy to exist so will jump on board with the first person who "sounds" like they have something?

5 - We probably have more to fear from fraud or people who "jump the gun" and claim they have something that works or flat-out lie, than we do from corporations, government or academia. How many years has the whole free energy field cried wolf but not produced anything. Forever! The "powers that be" don't even have to lift a finger. The people who claim they are afraid but still talk about it are MORE at risk since they haven't released their data (that is assuming it worked in the first place) yet they are drawing the very attention they claim they don't want.

6 - Due to the urgency of the need for free energy and the imagined fame/fortune that people think they will actually get for coming up with a working device, this seems to be one of the most scattered and easily distracted fields on the net. People play their hands close to their chest. Like the fisherman who sees a fish jump and puts his line over there, some people jump from idea to idea to idea if they hit the slightest problem or are told the idea won't work. Sometimes ideas won't work and they should be told, other times we all (myself as well) jump around too much. I think Wilbur Wright said something to the effect "it's not the ideas we have but the ideas we keep". We need to stay focused. There are many other global "open source" projects that are collected, focused, and much more productive than it seems this field is. These other projects (linux, mame, seti@home, etc.) grow in leaps and bounds compared to this field (well, maybe not seti...they still haven't found an alien :-). What do we have to show for all these years? Just a collection of recycled ideas, a few new ones and unproven "evidence" scatted across the web. Where's the progress?

7 - As Patrick so wisely said in another post, "The easiest person to deceive is ourselves". I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had something and, before I've 100% proven it to myself, wanted to jump the gun and tell someone else...anyone else, only to find out in the process of building..."Ahhhh, no! It ain't gonna work". Sometimes I feel stuck between a rock and a hard plance because on one hand I would like to share everything I have at the moment in the hopes that we can get there quicker, but I also don't want to add to the noise/distraction with yet more unworkable stuff. I don't know about all of you, but it does take a lot out of you...the ups, the downs, the years. Maybe some people get tired of the downs, so they just keep claiming their stuff works...it's easier that way. I sometimes procrastinate on building something I think will work for no other reason than I'm afraid it will end in failure. Not building keeps the idea alive, but "the future won't begin" unless we actually move forward.

8 - We should establish up front with ourselves what we hope to gain from solving this puzzle (proving working free energy) because it will help to get to the goal quicker. I know of some people in this field that would be unhappy if it was solved because they won't have anything to do any more. ???! I have plenty of other ideas I would like to explore or actually make money from. I would like nothing better than ANYONE to solve this so that I can clear my mind of such obsessive subject matter. Of course I struggle, at times, with the ideas of fame/fortune as I think are only human nature. My point here is that I've changed my attitude several time from being secretive until I get money (like Bessler), to I'll forgo money for fame, to I just want it finished so we all can benefit from it and I can get on with my life! Incidentally...I feel better now. :-)

9 - Let's use Bessler as a guide and not an absolute. A working device doesn't need to fit all or any of his clues. It just needs to work and we need to be able to replicate it.

10 - If someone keeps posting all kinds of idea to the web or on forums, they may be just trying to set the stage for them to "prove" that they had the idea first once someone else really does make a working device. One guy on another forum told me he does this exact thing. To those people keep this in mind, Edison didn't invent the light bulb....he just was the first to make the idea work usefully! Who's name does everyone remember...I thought so.

11 - Let's not worry what date the actual first working device gets built and tested on, only that it does and soon."

Copied directly from Ed @bw.com thread about fraudsters or people lying to themselves.

It centers me everytime i have a Eureka moment.

Sorry alex, i won't be showing up for class, i didn't get my deposit back from the last 5 classes i joined, and i believe you did not pay for any of your classes yet either.  ;D
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: Alexioco on May 14, 2008, 09:58:39 PM
Title: Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
Post by: AB Hammer on May 14, 2008, 10:54:08 PM
@Dgraphic911

That is some what interesting and would help many to center themselves on the possible moment. :o

When someone thinks they got it. It still takes time to know for sure. And if it is still a plan, it still has to be built.
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 15, 2008, 04:51:31 PM
I think about that is very good also, it also makes me think little, i will not be making any more claims about this wheel until its done and tested!
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: rlortie on May 18, 2008, 09:56:55 AM
Gustov22,

I think a sliding rod - crossing the center of the wheel's axis - would be helpful.
This guy Archer Quinn is making a lot of publicity for this set up, lately. I stole the idea from him. I hope he does not mind.

You did not steal anything from Archer Quinn, I am 68 years old and the first time I saw it, I kicked the slats out of my cradle  :)  Actually it has been around way before Bessler was a gleam in his fathers eye!

Check my photo gallery and you will find a sample of one spoke set up on a 360 degree adjustable ramp, There were eight levers on the machine.  Purpose of the test was to attempt finding a sweet spot for the ramp position and degree of inclined plane. Results proved their is no sweet spot and it will not work.

Archer has shown us nothing that has not been tried before.  Any day now I anticipate someone of his skills hollering hallelujah! I have invented a fur lined bath tub to keep the water warm...

Ralph

Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 18, 2008, 03:46:11 PM
Gustov22,

I think a sliding rod - crossing the center of the wheel's axis - would be helpful.
This guy Archer Quinn is making a lot of publicity for this set up, lately. I stole the idea from him. I hope he does not mind.

You did not steal anything from Archer Quinn, I am 68 years old and the first time I saw it, I kicked the slats out of my cradle  :)  Actually it has been around way before Bessler was a gleam in his fathers eye!

Check my photo gallery and you will find a sample of one spoke set up on a 360 degree adjustable ramp, There were eight levers on the machine.  Purpose of the test was to attempt finding a sweet spot for the ramp position and degree of inclined plane. Results proved their is no sweet spot and it will not work.

Archer has shown us nothing that has not been tried before.  Any day now I anticipate someone of his skills hollering hallelujah! I have invented a fur lined bath tub to keep the water warm...

Ralph

Where do we view your gallery
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 18, 2008, 05:24:43 PM
Hi Ralph,

http://a-z-studios.com/gallery/

nice pictures here and a great Flash site.
Well done.

Did you ever get something to work contineously ?

Have a look at the ramp pulley system I just posted here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4683.msg97622.html#msg97622

Did you ever try something like this ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 18, 2008, 06:07:17 PM
I dont understand what the wheel is supposed to do in that picture?
could somone explain
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: rlortie on May 18, 2008, 06:14:58 PM
Alex,

Where do we view your gallery.

Any Member having a web link and wishing to share it has a blue globe or ball located in the far left column under their name and with the E- mail icons.  Simply click on the the blue ball and the web link will open.  Hans has a great one that I have beer reviewing on and off in my spare time.

At BesslerWheel.Com to open a personal web page you click on the WWW  located at the bottom of the post.

Ralph
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: rlortie on May 18, 2008, 07:20:41 PM
Stefen,

http://a-z-studios.com/gallery/

nice pictures here and a great Flash site.
Well done.

Thanks, but the credit is not mine, A high school graduate already had the web link.  He joined the Navy and gave me the sight. All I know how to do with it is add pictures and images. The rest I could edit and personalize if I knew how but I don'tt.

Did you ever get something to work contineously ?

I have came close a number of times but, no! I cannot claim a runner, One often when working on a design will develop tunnel vision without realizing it. It is normal to finally realize the you have configured it into a balanced wheel that will spin for a long time simply due to kinetic and inertial forces applied with that moderate starting push. It will spin forever but will not produce a sustaining force, let alone any output.

Have a look at the ramp pulley system I just posted here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4683.msg97622.html#msg97622
Did you ever try something like this ?

I am not into WM2D other than "Wood, Metal & 2 Days"  Therefore I do not feel qualified to make comment on your above screen shot.  I can with confidence say that I have built and researched many ramp designs, ramps being either internal or externally fixed. Some using magnets not unlike Archer Quinn's proposal. IT WILL NOT WORK!

When using ropes and pulleys  with or without ramps one must consider what centripetal forces are going to come into play during rotation. In you above design I feel very apprehensive that it will eat it alive.

The first rule of thumb I use for evaluating a design is to remove all the mechanical gobbely-Goop and look at the positon of the weights. I then vector them within a vertical reference. Then tally both the ascending and descending sides.  Most end up being a hight for width scenario.  Even Bessler took note of this and  claimed anyone believing that it  will work is in for a disappointment.

You will often see the term "hight for width" posted by either Fletcher or myself as he is also well educated in the school of hard knocks learning to appreciate it as I have "The hard way".

@Alex,

You made a statement in a previous post stating that your axle moved up and down. Would you care to elaborate on that.  If a wheel is to work this characteristic is a welcome sight if the source of such action is due to "out of Balance"..
I refer you to the  'Borlach' papers regarding his eye witness report on watching Bessler's wheel.
.
Ralph
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 18, 2008, 08:12:41 PM
Stefen,

http://a-z-studios.com/gallery/

nice pictures here and a great Flash site.
Well done.

Thanks, but the credit is not mine, A high school graduate already had the web link.  He joined the Navy and gave me the sight. All I know how to do with it is add pictures and images. The rest I could edit and personalize if I knew how but I don'tt.

Did you ever get something to work contineously ?

I have came close a number of times but, no! I cannot claim a runner, One often when working on a design will develop tunnel vision without realizing it. It is normal to finally realize the you have configured it into a balanced wheel that will spin for a long time simply due to kinetic and inertial forces applied with that moderate starting push. It will spin forever but will not produce a sustaining force, let alone any output.

Have a look at the ramp pulley system I just posted here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4683.msg97622.html#msg97622
Did you ever try something like this ?

I am not into WM2D other than "Wood, Metal & 2 Days"  Therefore I do not feel qualified to make comment on your above screen shot.  I can with confidence say that I have built and researched many ramp designs, ramps being either internal or externally fixed. Some using magnets not unlike Archer Quinn's proposal. IT WILL NOT WORK!

When using ropes and pulleys  with or without ramps one must consider what centripetal forces are going to come into play during rotation. In you above design I feel very apprehensive that it will eat it alive.

The first rule of thumb I use for evaluating a design is to remove all the mechanical gobbely-Goop and look at the positon of the weights. I then vector them within a vertical reference. Then tally both the ascending and descending sides.  Most end up being a hight for width scenario.  Even Bessler took note of this and  claimed anyone believing that it  will work is in for a disappointment.

You will often see the term "hight for width" posted by either Fletcher or myself as he is also well educated in the school of hard knocks learning to appreciate it as I have "The hard way".

@Alex,

You made a statement in a previous post stating that your axle moved up and down. Would you care to elaborate on that.  If a wheel is to work this characteristic is a welcome sight if the source of such action is due to "out of Balance"..
I refer you to the  'Borlach' papers regarding his eye witness report on watching Bessler's wheel.
.
Ralph

When the axel is in my wheel, the axel is just off centre so when I lift the wheel over the axel its falls back around and the heavy part of the wheel rests at the bottom...
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 18, 2008, 09:45:21 PM
I'm not going to say anything but you lot are in for a massive surprise, and its big...
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: broli on May 18, 2008, 11:28:36 PM
Don't be afraid to share, we are here all looking for the same thing so it's best to keep eachother updated on any kind of related stuff we achieve(d).
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: rlortie on May 19, 2008, 05:09:34 AM
Alex,

Edited for Brevity;
When the axle is in my wheel, the axle is just off center so when I lift the wheel over the axle its falls back around and the heavy part of the wheel rests at the bottom..

To the layman, you are admitting that your CoG or COM is located at the bottom of your wheel.  To the gravity wheel researcher being educated in basics 101 this is a sure sign it will not work!  I have graduated from that semester and do not always see it as a bad thing. A balanced wheel must be out of balance if it is to turn! You are changing the angular momentum,  a force that we are told can neither be created or destroyed. Depending on application your wheel must either speed up or slow down.

Ralph
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: rlortie on May 19, 2008, 06:02:48 AM
Stefan,

It is past 8:00 PM for me and my day is finally slowing down,  I have taken the liberty to go back and attempt to learn what I can regarding your WM2D screen shot at; http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4683.msg97622.html#msg97622

I reiterate that I do not claim any knowledge of WM2D or its cymbal usage, example; your pulleys look like motors?

Here I have come up with a 2 weight and pulley system and a ramp.
Very simple indeed !

Possibly a little to simple, with just one active mechanism I see no way to apply or maintain 360 degrees of revolution.

The green weight has 40 Kgs.
The blue weight has 20 Kgs.
As the green weight is on the ramp,
it is getting much lighter and climbs the ramp

Please explain how the green  gets lighter, it is twice the weight of its counter part hanging from what I assume are single shieve pulleys. No matter where it is placed on the ramp (up or down) 20 K gs will still be resting on the ramp. If the ramp is at 45 degrees then the blue must fall one unit to the green rising 1/2 unit. The blue will not fall as no matter where the green ball rests on the incline plane it is in balance with the blue. In  reality if it were not for the simulated rope retaining it the green will roll down the ramp picking up the blue. The green weighing twice as much and having to travel twice the distance (but same elevation to raise the blue is like dropping the counter weight on a trebruchet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet

to the top and leaves it and falls down, as he green weight  is double the weight of the blue weight.

Stefan, I am sorry but this reminds me of the infamous magnetic ball and ramp scenario. A magnet pulls a ball up a ramp where it drops through a hole in said ramp and repeats the cycle.  What's wrong with this picture?  If the magnet is strong enough to lift the ball up the ramp, Then how can it be weak enough to release the ball and let it fall?  Here we have lifted a light ball with a heavy and now you must reverse this action.

If you make both weights the same weight and let the blue weight also rise on a ramp

The blue or green riding on the ramp will not change their gravitational mass, The ramp is and acts as a lever better known as an "Inclined plane"  and can be compared to your teeter-totter or see-saw. At a 45 degree plane you can lift two weight units half the elevation one unit is dropping.

If this does not make sense blame it on me and or my illiteracy for WM2D

So Bessler probably used pendulum weights and did put them on tilted ramps to move them up
and then let them fall again propelling the wheel.

I believe you will find that debatable, pendulum weights very possible, but ramps I find improbable.  I will admit however there is mention of an eyewitness saying he saw "Warped Boards" through a slit in the canvas covering.

Ralph
EDIT: I just read: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4683.msg97640.html#msg97640  A somewhat different explanation but the end results look similar!
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 19, 2008, 02:26:31 PM
Alex,

Edited for Brevity;
When the axle is in my wheel, the axle is just off center so when I lift the wheel over the axle its falls back around and the heavy part of the wheel rests at the bottom..

To the layman, you are admitting that your CoG or COM is located at the bottom of your wheel.  To the gravity wheel researcher being educated in basics 101 this is a sure sign it will not work!  I have graduated from that semester and do not always see it as a bad thing. A balanced wheel must be out of balance if it is to turn! You are changing the angular momentum,  a force that we are told can neither be created or destroyed. Depending on application your wheel must either speed up or slow down.

Ralph

This this wheel doesnt work, wait till you see this next one, which instn to different, but by making this certain change, as you will see that the wheel can revolve with the same amount of weights on each side but one side is overbalanced and there is something eles this wheel can do, but before w ego any further, ill explain it to you on email as this is only for your ears at the moment...
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2008, 03:32:30 AM
Hi Ralph,
yes,the green and blue ball ramp experiment is just the same as a lever
construction or a pulley construction.
You pull a heavier weight up by pulling double the length,so the energy
stays the same.
Did not work.
Now I see it too.

But look at my new centrifugal force helped wheel in the other first thread
on this board.
It seems to run pretty nice and also shifts the CoG over the axis all the time.

Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Alex, did you already try a few household weights on your wheel ?
So how is it doing ?
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 20, 2008, 06:24:12 PM
Hi Ralph,
yes,the green and blue ball ramp experiment is just the same as a lever
construction or a pulley construction.
You pull a heavier weight up by pulling double the length,so the energy
stays the same.
Did not work.
Now I see it too.

But look at my new centrifugal force helped wheel in the other first thread
on this board.
It seems to run pretty nice and also shifts the CoG over the axis all the time.

Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Alex, did you already try a few household weights on your wheel ?
So how is it doing ?

Everything is ready, just need the weights, the rim is attached on, only thing, my wheel has been built and is good but if it works it probably wont last that long as the levers will soon snap?

I would think it would last a few months then it would have to be stopped and kept still and have just for show?

Im off to get some car wheel weights and melt them to make weights for my wheel, then the other side of the wheel can be fixed on.

Failing this, then I have something which comes from this (improved) that should be an eye opener, time will tell?
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: erickdt on May 20, 2008, 06:30:42 PM
Everything is ready, just need the weights, the rim is attached on, only thing, my wheel has been built and is good but if it works it probably wont last that long as the levers will soon snap?

I would think it would last a few months then it would have to be stopped and kept still and have just for show?

Im off to get some car wheel weights and melt them to make weights for my wheel, then the other side of the wheel can be fixed on.

Failing this, then I have something which comes from this (improved) that should be an eye opener, time will tell?

Have you thought of getting weights from your local sporting goods store?
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: oak on May 20, 2008, 08:29:02 PM
"Im off to get some car wheel weights and melt them to make weights . . ."

Alex, lead -- as is used in car wheel weights -- is extremely toxic even in low quantities.  It causes brain damage among many other things.  Breathing fumes from melting lead is an excellent way to get a lot of lead into your body.  I hope you know what you are doing.  I can't see why you don't just buy some appropriate-sized steel hexagonal nuts at your local hardware store.

[ETA:  or as erickdt suggests, weights from a sporting goods store.]
Title: Re: Alex's MT Combination
Post by: Alexioco on May 20, 2008, 09:30:31 PM
"Im off to get some car wheel weights and melt them to make weights . . ."

Alex, lead -- as is used in car wheel weights -- is extremely toxic even in low quantities.  It causes brain damage among many other things.  Breathing fumes from melting lead is an excellent way to get a lot of lead into your body.  I hope you know what you are doing.  I can't see why you don't just buy some appropriate-sized steel hexagonal nuts at your local hardware store.