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Author Topic: Alex's MT Combination  (Read 96605 times)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2008, 03:03:36 AM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2008, 03:22:17 AM »
Here you can at least see a few original drawings and his handwriting:

http://www.lulu.com/browse/preview.php?fCID=593584

I am just trying to read the old German Fraktur handwriting,
which is not easy at this low resolution scan,
but the english translation is definately very sloppy...

Especially in drawing 1 there is  a formular A.B.C.= Y
is not translated correctly over here:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20


Well, would be good to have highres scans of all the original
handwritings and texts to it.

As I do also Anchestor research I am a bit used to read old German
fraktur fonts..

Regards, Stefan.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2008, 03:42:13 AM »
Funny how wrongly the translation is also for MT2:
at:
http://static.lulu.com/items/volume_43/593000/593584/2/preview/book/page0010.png

It must be:

No.2: Diese Erfindung mit Kugeln und schr?gen geraden Linien haben viele,
fast die meisten Mobilis, vor allen Dingen....

now the following words are too hard to read in this small resolution...

So translatetd into English this would mean:

Number 2: This invention with balls ( spheres) and with straight tilted (beveled) lines
have many or are part of most of the perpertual motion machines, of course...

So compare this to:
 
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20
Where you can almost understand nothing...

Had been translated by a guy, who could not read German fraktur probably...

So we really need high resolution scans...

Also there is a formular at the end of this text saying:

2 + 3, 2 + 6 and 2 + 7

If I would have the high res scans, I could probaly dechifr? the whole German
fraktur text...


Regards, Stefan.




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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2008, 03:42:13 AM »
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Offline fatspidr

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2008, 04:08:48 AM »
Hey Stefan,

I imagine that if you went over to Besslerwheel.com and offered your help to John Collins and the others who were trying their best to translate Bessler's writings they'd appreciate it.  The majority of them seem to be open to suggestions and corrections.  There's a nice wiki there with the MT drawings....you could sign up, comment and offer your version of the translation.

Don't think of that site as competition....I look at both of your sites as being complimentary.  The more the merrier.

Just a thought,

David

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2008, 04:10:53 AM »
Okay, maybe with the forumlar I was wrong, as the rest of the text was too small to read
and dechiffr?,
maybe it really meant some pages of another book that the
translation here
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20
has:

"No. 2: Almost unanimously the mobilists for whom the spheres were the main principle have chosen a figure for the most part like this one; such a figure has already been encountered in various books on mathematics and mechanics, and from the figure the mathematicians generally showed the impossibility of perpetual motion, just as though one could not bring forth a better figure as evidence. In particular, Jungnickel, in his almost peculiar book titled Key to Mechanics, pages 243, 246 and 247, has presented three such machines and intended to prove and enforce the impossibility of perpetual motion. Sturm also uses this figure, and even the late Leopold uses it in his Machine Treatise, of which he prepared 8 sections but did not complete because of his death."

    - Johann Bessler

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2008, 04:10:53 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2008, 04:55:29 AM »
G'day all,

As Stefan pointed out the old German is difficult to read. The printed books are, as Stefan says in Fraktur, a German print script derived from Gothic, sometimes erroneously called old English.

The handwriting in the Maschinen Traktate is an entirely different matter. Here it is written in an old German script that was later a little modernised in 1911 and then became known as Suetterlin. It was officially discontinued in 1941 but continued to be taught in schools. My generation was the last to have it as a compulsory subject. It is no longer taught. It is illegible to someone who has not been taught the script.

I am including here a picture of the script as well as a page from the Maschinen Traktate to let you see what difficulties any translator faces with these documents.

Hans von Lieven

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/S%C3%BCtterlinschrift.png/250px-S%C3%BCtterlinschrift.png)

Sample of Suetterlin.


(http://keelytech.com/overunity/mashinentraktate.jpg)

Maschinen Traktate (Collins)


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2008, 06:04:21 AM »
Hi Hans and all,
yes, Bessler used a mix of S?tterlin and old German Fraktur
as it seems.

S?tterlin is very difficult to read, but one can get used to read it
after some learning..
Especially the "e" and the "n"
are often mixed up.

So your posted text says:

Bisweilen wird jede Form der deutschen Kurrentschrift als S?tterlinschrift bezeichnet.
Dies liegt wohl daran, dass die S?tterlinschrift diejeniege Form der deutschen
Kurrentschrift ist, deren Name am bekannstesten ist.
Trotzdem ist diese Bezeichnung unzutreffend. Denn es gab die
deutsche Kurrentschrift schon lange vor Ludwig S?tterlin.

Hard to translate, but I am getting again used to it...
See:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Kurrentschrift


Well after much investigation I did find in 2003 the testatment from
my grand-grand-grandfather from 1894, which I have found
in 2003 in the Marienburg ( today Malbork-castle archive, Poland) archive
(I was happy, that it was not destroyed during WorldWar II)
and several other documents from the land register books of this
timeframe and area. (When Marienburg and district Stuhm still belonged to West-Prussia)

Then I really had to learn these totally unknown to me "fonts" from this
former German timeframe..

To the most Germans today it just looks like secretive scrible and
nobody can read it anymore...

I also have to adopt every time my eyes again and sometimes have to pause, and
rethink, what some letters mean.
This together with the bad handwriting style of this former timeframe,
when there were no typewriters yet existent, it is a real hard job sometimes to
dechiffr? old documents.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2008, 06:04:21 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2008, 06:09:38 AM »
P.S:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Lessing_Kleist-Brief.jpg

Something like this is really hard to read
in this resolution and with this "lazy" handwriting style...

Could take half an hour to get all the words right,
sometimes only from the contens-interpretation..

Offline John Collins

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2008, 08:31:22 AM »
Hi all, following an interesting email from Stefan I have decided to respond here.

My interest has always been to the put as much of Bessler's works into the public eye as possible to try to generate some interest and eventually a successful working reconstruction of the original wheel by Bessler.

But I found the text in MT which is handwritten, almost impossible to read but I was able to use, in a limited way, the work of another translator, based in the USA, but also made some of my own corrections in the process.  And that is the way I see the understanding of MT - as a work in progress.  I intended that the text should be corrected and improved as time goes by and have no problem with criticism when people find that what I have written is wrong, at least it gets the subject talked about and that is the most important thing. 

Unfortunately I don't have any high res versions of the original papers although my own digital versions may be slightly better than those which have appeared here, but the size of them may prove too big to post.

As for copyright and ownership issues, I had to beg the owners of the original works for permission to publish the document I call MT (Maschinen Tractate) and they eventually gave me permission for a limited number of copies.  I only own the copyright on my versions of MT.

I should point out that the title Maschinen Tractate which I have ascribed to this collection of drawings may not be the one that Bessler  was referring to when he wrote to Peter the Great and offered him an MT as a book he could have in addition to the wheel.  That book was intended to include descriptions of real machinery such as Mills etc.

Doubt has been voiced about whether Bessler wrote the text and did the drawings in our MT;  I have no such doubts and will be able to offer conclusive evidence in a while.

I have never posted here before but am willing to take part if anyone has any questions to direct to me, but please allow me a day or so to get familiar with the forum.

Best wishes to all,

John Collins


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2008, 08:31:22 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2008, 09:02:06 AM »
@John Collins,

Welcome to the forum John, it is nice to see a dedicated researcher such as you here. If you need any help with some of your old German or medieval Latin texts Just ask.

@Stefan,

Congratulations on your command of Suetterlin. It is good to see someone of your generation taking an interest. A shame really, I hate to see this part of our cultural heritage being lost.

Hans von Lieven

Offline dani1

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2008, 09:48:00 AM »
...
In all here presented MT designs and proposals from Alex and the others I miss the springs...

Maybe this is the missing link Besser did not show in the Machinen Tractates ?
...


Yes, indeed there must be springs

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2008, 09:48:00 AM »
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Offline John Collins

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2008, 10:15:48 AM »
Thank you Hans.  I might well call on your expertise for some Latin texts.

John Collins

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2008, 03:25:08 PM »
What i am going t odo is study every wheel and write down how they all work just like bessler did next to his 56 wheels...

Alex,

Are you going to write down how they work, or why they won't work. The  latter being the intention of the 54 he did complete. They were intended for the students of his never founded school to study and learn the reasoning of why they did not function as the inventor proposed. 

To my thinking the ones he indicates hold potential for improvement are 9, 10,11, 14, 18, 24, 25, and 27... 15 is questionable as he states "nothing of the prime driver is to be seen here.

I would suggest emphasizing research on these and forget the rest until after you have exhausted all hopes of finding what is missing. Such as his statements of pulling back the curtain and connectivity.

Ralph   

Ralph, I would absoultly agree on those wheels you mentioned and i am going to write how they are ment to work, then say why they dont, but first I will completly study the wheels I belive are very important...

Offline broli

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2008, 03:35:32 PM »
So does that mean the wheel you were working on worked or didn't?

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Alex's Bessler Wheel Discovery
« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2008, 04:17:33 PM »
Hi Alex,
does this mean, you are now sure your wheel does not work and you must study it further ??

 

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