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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: allcanadian on April 17, 2008, 02:15:46 AM

Title: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 17, 2008, 02:15:46 AM
I started this new thread because I believe I was wrong, such is life.;D It's funny how we complicate and twist things too suit our view of reality at the time, and I believe I have strayed off course. So this is a Redux-- Hopefully from Teslas perspective.

All quotes are from Tesla's Patent 512340
Quote
In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the self-induction of the coils or conductors may, and in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantagely by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments
Here Tesla states "coils and conductors can operate disadvantagely by giving rise to false currents", these false currents relate to the effects of self-induction. He also states the self-induction can be neutralized by adding the proper degree of capacitance.I have come to see self-induction as electrical inertia, that is current will be opposed by an inductance when a magnetic field is expanding and current will want to maintain its motion as the magnetic field collapses. I see this as a resistance to the natural resonance of the inductance because the electric and magnetic components can never be in true resonance, as such the primary inducing coils can never be in resonance with the secondary induced coils.

Quote
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small.

Here Tesla states that a current of given frequency and potential can pass through an inductance with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance if certain conditions are met, in this statement we can assume in a conventional sense that an alternating current is always opposed. As well Lenz Law would state induced currents will always be opposed but I do not think this can apply to standing waves which by nature could not have a resistance to there motion to be considered standing waves--- they would be dampened waves.

Quote
In order to attain my object and to properly increase the capacity of any given coil, I wind it in such way as to secure a greater difference of potential between its adjacent turns or convolutions, and since the energy stored in the coil considering - the latter as a condenser, is proportionate to the square of the potential difference between its adjacent convolutions, it is evident that I may in this way secure by a proper disposition of these convolutions a greatly increased capacity for a given increase in potential difference between the turns.
Here Tesla states he wants to secure a greater difference of potential between a coils adjacent turns or convolutions considering the coil as a condenser. It is well known that a capacitors ability to store energy is proportional to the potential difference between the plates and Tesla states securing a GREATER potential difference between turns will increase the capacity thus energy storing ability of the coil. This single point I believe has misled many people, myself included, until we consider capacitive and inductive reactance. At high frequencies capacitive reactance (resistance) decreases as inductive reactance(resistance) increases, at lower frequencies the roles reverse and capacitive reactance increases as inductive reactance decreases. Since the object of many of Teslas circuits is high potential/high frequency currents for increased efficiency it would seem we cannot win, but I believe Teslas patent has shown us how to correct this condition.

Quote
If now, as shown in Figure 2, a conductor B be wound parallel with the conductor A and insulated from it, and the end of A be connected with the starting point of B, the aggregate length of the two conductors being such that the assumed number of convolutions or turns is the same, viz., one thousand, then the potential difference between any two points in A and B will be fifty volts, and as the capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference, the energy stored in the coil as a whole will now be two hundred and fifty thousand as great. Following out this principle, I may wind any given coil either in whole or in part, not only in the specific manner herein illustrated, but in a great variety of ways, well-known in the art, so as to secure between adjacent convolutions such potential difference as will give the proper capacity to neutralize the self-induction for any given current that may be employed.
Here some very important statements are made by Tesla---
Quote
as the capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference
---potential difference between turns and this capacity effect is proportional to the SQUARE of this potential difference, meaning a greater amount of energy is stored as a capacitance relative to a small increase in the potential difference between turns.

Quote
as the capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference, the energy stored in the coil as a whole will now be two hundred and fifty thousand as great.
The energy stored in the coil as a whole will now be two hundred and fifty thousand as great---- I think this statement speaks for itself. The question is "how does he do it?", we should first understand this coil is meant for high potential/high frequency currents---- meaning at high frequency the potential in one section of wire can be much higher than in a section of the same wire an inch away increasing the potential difference between turns thus capacity or energy storing ability as capacitance. But why should we bother storing energy as a capacitance between turns? We should remember we are dealing with a high frequency/high potential air core coil, a factor limiting the efficiency is the self-inductance of the coil or inductive reactance. We could consider this as inertia or the momentum of a moving electric current and just when the primary current wants to reverse this self-induced momentum comes into play---like trying to push a swing out of time a considerable amount of energy is wasted. But what if this self-induced resistance to the primary current reversal(false current)could be stored in another form--- as an electric field between turns in the coil---as a capacitance. In this case the self-induction or inductive reactance is neutralized and the coil can alternate at it's natural resonant frequency which should match the primary frequency. If you can concieve this as possible then it seems concievable that this energy from the self-induction current stored as a capacitance between turns could discharge itself when the current reverses thus adding to the reversed primary current----a standing wave.




Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 17, 2008, 03:11:41 AM


Hi AllCanadian

The patent your are talking about is here:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/US00512340_Coil_for_Electro_Magnets_Tesla.pdf

Perhaps this could be of any help. :P...

Best
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 17, 2008, 03:35:36 AM
@NerzhDishual
I got my patent info from here---http://keelynet.com/tesla/
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: am1ll3r on April 17, 2008, 04:04:43 AM
While experimenting with the Tesla Ozone Patent 568177 I wanted to use a coil such as the one in patent 512340. I tried winding my wire and it became a mess. ??? Does anyone have any tips on winding such a coil?  :D another thing would a coil wound in such a fashion (pancake) use less wire? I mean for example in my testing I am using transformer from microwave and their is obviously allot of wire in the secondary. Do you think similar results would be seen with a secondary coil (pancake) but using significantly less wire?
Thanks for sharing your thought AC  :)

-am1ll3r
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 17, 2008, 06:10:26 PM
@ am1ll3r
There is something all of us have been missing, we should build this coil as a capacitor first not last, this is based on the resonant frequency of the circuit---patent 568177. I have built a few "pancake" coils and none of them would meet Tesla specifications, not one. I have posted a photo of one of the coils I was testing with mixed results and I understand why I got the bad results.
Lets start at the end first ---- the discharge ;D
I think we are all familiar with the discharge from an ignition coil, the spark is well defined, a narrow blue colored arc with white tinges near the conductors, it makes a sharp cracking noise on discharge. We could consider this an arc produced by means of EM induction, but this is not the arc I am producing. The arc across the ends of my pancake coil from a single contact(switch) cycle in patent 568177 produces an arc that is a brilliant white and radiates in all directions--more like a spherical arc having a large volume, it has very soft edges and a soft tone with no crackling noises. I would consider this an arc produced by rapidly oscillating capacitive discharges.
An important point to be made here is that once my circuit (568177) is in operation all the parameters change, a single impulse into this circuit may give the desired effect to some degree but once the circuit is in operation the tuning of this primary/secondary pancake coil with the main circuits resonant frequency becomes critical. I will try to expand on how we will tune our coil in another post, at this point I am trying to simplify what is needed to a few basic calculations and a brief description.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 17, 2008, 07:26:03 PM
That coil has distributed capacitance and resistance - like a transmission line or pulse-forming-network.

Generally used to sharpen a pulse or better match the load.

Guess you can look at it like a pulse compressor.

(But, I am not "learned" so what do I know?)
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: am1ll3r on April 17, 2008, 08:02:34 PM
@allcanadian
What AWG wire did you use to construct you coil ?
Thanks,

am1ll3r
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 18, 2008, 03:18:06 AM
@Grumpy
I believe there is more happening in Teslas coil that we realize, I am just in the process of putting it all together with some pictures for posting. That image you posted looks like a delay line or in one patent I believe it was refered to as a "long wave generator".
Part of what I found relates to this link---http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1898-11-17.htm--- look at Fig 3 ;)
Tesla said at high frequencies the potential at any two points on a single wire can vary by huge amounts, thus if two wires were used (Pat 512340)the potential could could vary by twice that amount, if the potential difference between wires increases so does the capacity, the ability to store energy to offset self-inductance. But this energy is not wasted it is returned to the coil when the current alternates so energy is conserved, it adds to the current it is never opposed.

Quote
(But, I am not "learned" so what do I know?)

I think any success I may have comes from ice cold beer---thank god for beer

Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 18, 2008, 05:55:45 AM
@Grumpy
I believe there is more happening in Teslas coil that we realize, I am just in the process of putting it all together with some pictures for posting. That image you posted looks like a delay line or in one patent I believe it was refered to as a "long wave generator".
Part of what I found relates to this link---http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1898-11-17.htm--- look at Fig 3 ;)
Tesla said at high frequencies the potential at any two points on a single wire can vary by huge amounts, thus if two wires were used (Pat 512340)the potential could could vary by twice that amount, if the potential difference between wires increases so does the capacity, the ability to store energy to offset self-inductance. But this energy is not wasted it is returned to the coil when the current alternates so energy is conserved, it adds to the current it is never opposed.

Quote
(But, I am not "learned" so what do I know?)




Actually that came from a patent that used a coil with increased capacitance as a low-pass filter.
I think any success I may have comes from ice cold beer---thank god for beer

Put a pulse too it and see what it does to it.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: barbosi on April 19, 2008, 05:43:03 PM
Current representation of a field (the only???) around all sides of a wire carrying an electric current is like in fig.1 (source wikipedia:electricity). It is known as magnetic field.

However, form an old book "Electric discharges waves and impulses" by Charles Proteus Steinmetz, is shown at the page 10 a similar figure with a bit more details. Here you have it as fig.2.

The text says:
Quote
The conductor is surrounded by a magnetic field, or a magnetic flux..................................... With  single conductor, the lines are concentric circles................
.................................................................
An electrostatic, or, more properly called, dielectric field, ............... With a single conductor, the lines of dielectric force are radial straight lines, as shown dotted............

Again from wikipedia:
Quote
A dielectric is a nonconducting substance, i.e. an insulator. The term was coined by William Whewell[1] in response to a request from Faraday. Whewell considered "dia-electric", from the Greek "dia" meaning "through", since an electric field passes through the material but felt that "dielectric" was easier to pronounce[citation needed].
.................
"Dielectrics ... are not a narrow class of so-called insulators, but the broad expanse of nonmetals considered from the standpoint of their interaction with electric, magnetic, of electromagnetic fields. Thus we are concerned with gases as well as with liquids and solids, and with the storage of electric and magnetic energy as well as its dissipation."

Regards.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: springfield on April 19, 2008, 09:16:24 PM
I believe there is more happening in Teslas coil that we realize...
... yes, the diagram shows a distributed inductance. There must surely be a difference between a string of independent little inductors versus a similar string of inductors that are would on the same core and therefore magnetically coupled...?
-Mike
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: M@rcel on April 20, 2008, 07:59:33 PM
Can anyone make any sense of the pancake on this page:
http://www.geocities.com/phononstring/
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 20, 2008, 09:51:09 PM
@allcanadian

I venture a guess that with a pancake coil - the ether field, tempic field, torsion field, or whatever name you choose - is parallel to the axis of the coil.  electric field follows the wire around - magnetic field is perpendicular to this and therefore point inward-outware across the coil, and this leave the axis direction for the "other" field.

G
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 24, 2008, 01:59:01 AM
Here is another piece of the puzzle for you ;D
At a frequency of 60Hz a full wavelength is 5000 Kilometers long, a half-wavelength is 2500 kilometers long. So we can say the peak potential will occur at a  1/4 wavelength or 1250 Km and the minimum potential at 3/4 wavelength or 3750 Km. Knowing this it is safe to say in a pancake coil with conductors 1m long will never have a maximum potential difference between them---- the conductors are too short.
However at 300 Mz the wavelength is 1m long, if we now took a 2m conductor and folded it in half and connected as in Patent 512340 then the maximum and minimum potentials would overlap and the capacitance between them be maximized.In Teslas Coil the end of conductor A(1m) is attached to the beginning of conductor B(1m) thus in the coil the potentials min and max could overlap.
If this is the case then geometry or component placement has an important role to play, a light bulb could light if attached to one part of a wire but not the next with high frequency currents. I think this is something nobody has considered, we see a black and white world where there is current and voltage--induction,  but ignore the mass of components and where they are placed in relation to other components in regards to there fields and capacitive effects. So I think it should be understood that Patent 512340 is a tuned coil, to a specific frequency and in relation to the components that drive it.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 24, 2008, 05:47:02 AM
The velocity of the impulse is not necessarily the speed of light.  Tesla stated that his waves propagated  at Pi/2xC.

this does not necessarily mean the impulse is travelling down the wire.  Dollard touched on this, but I can not recall whether he determined that this was a group velocity or a phase velocity - I believe he said it was a phase velocity.


Guess you can tune the discharger and the coil for max spark between the end and ground - 1/4 wave length.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: armagdn03 on April 24, 2008, 05:51:16 AM
An interesting patent to dissect indeed.

what is a capacitor, what is an inductor?
A simple answer to this question is, that all electrical systems are both. It just so happens that what we term capacitor and inductor are geometries that we have chosen to capitalize the properties of either capacitance or inductance. Because of this it should be noted that capacitors have inductance, and inductors have capacitance. Geometry is everything. Now that were done stating the obvious, consider the asymmetrical capacitor, (such as used in bifield brown experiments).
In the image below, the light red represents a positive charge with a low charge density (small charge per area). The next size down will be of opposite polarity and have a greater charge density. This can be continued down to a point where the charge density will be the greatest. This is the reason we want to keep sharp points off of tesla coils and such, because it leads to charge leakage. This applies directly to cylindrical (or in this case pancake) capacitors. Now think about what this means for the center of the coil.
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb275/tortuga0303/asymetricalcapcopy.jpg)

Also consider the fact that this geometry does not create a capacitor in the traditional sense as the opposed conductive surfaces are electrically connected. This means that when a discharge is introduced into the coil, it will be absorbed primarily by the capacitive nature of the coil rather than the inductive property. This means that the natural resonant point of the coil will fall at a lower frequency since the capacitance and inductance are closer. This coil will ring because of this electrical connection, since the collapse of the electric stress field will enter the inductive property of the coil.  In and of itself, it is a mini LC circuit much the same way any coil is.

And one more to think about. Due to the nature of the coil the magnetic (inductive) properties are minimized to their smallest, and the electrical field components are voided, save the stray field at the periphery. so if we are left without dielectric, and magnetic fields (or at least they are kept to a very minimum) where are we? What is the perpose?



Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 24, 2008, 04:02:42 PM
Tesla:

Quote
Capacity secured in this particular way possesses an additional advantage in that it is evenly distributed, a consideration of the greatest importance in many cases, and the results, both as to efficiency and economy, are the more readily and easily obtained as the size of the coils, the potential difference or frequency of the currents are increased.

What does Tesla mean by this statement?
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: armagdn03 on April 24, 2008, 04:33:20 PM
Again it is about geometry, a parallel plate capacitor may not be perfectly parallel, meaning the charge distribution may not be equal, the  more evenly distributed it is the less of a chance you have of dielectric breakdown. Also again, take into consideration that a wire, is round, while plates have edges, and It was just pointed out that the sharp edge builds up charge density towards the point leading to corona leaks, the tubular wire, will have much less of this problem, and will contain the charge better.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 24, 2008, 05:21:43 PM
Not from the view of a capacitor, or charged plates (which is incorrect anyway) - look at this coil from the view of an impulse.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 24, 2008, 05:53:23 PM
I enclosed a picture of what i was thinking about, consider Fig 1 a Tesla coil unwound and flatened, if the frequency is low the compressive tension (+) will encompass the whole coil both wires as the wavelength could be many kilometers long, as will the (-). But at high frequency a full wavelength could correspond to the length of the coil(conductors A,B).
In fig 2 we can see Teslas coil in another orientation, here it is more obvious that one conductor A is under a compressive force and B is under a expansive force, opposite conditions between parallel conductors or a maximum potential difference. Now consider an ordinary capacitor, two plates in close relation, there is almost no possibility that this effect could manifest itself as the wavelength is too large, that is we could not concievably produce frequencies high enough to produce this effect.
There is also the fact Teslas coil is reducing in diameter as we approach the center of the coil, the question is how would the conductor percieve this? Also at any point "in" the coil the conductor A has conductor B on "both" sides of it, this conductor B on one side of A is at a different potential than conductor B on the other side of A because the diameter is always reducing, thus potential changes at any given point in a wavelength. As such I think this potential difference as a capacitive effect could possibly be in motion as the potential difference is applying a force both sideways and let's say forward, and a potential difference initiates current flow. Needless to say this is no ordinary coil and nothing like the bifiliar coils people have been winding.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 24, 2008, 06:18:17 PM
Perhaps the impulse is rhythmicly compressing and decompressing the dielectric (aether) - which the sine wave isn't good for representing.

more like this

ooooooOOOOOOooooooOOOOOO
ooooooOOOOOOooooooOOOOOO
ooooooOOOOOOooooooOOOOOO
ooooooOOOOOOooooooOOOOOO
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 24, 2008, 08:27:11 PM
@Grumpy
Exactly ;D I was hoping someone would get it. I don't think what we consider as a sine wave truely represents what is happening, it is a compression and expansion. Now what would happen if we connected a load across your big "0's" and little "o's" ? at this point we would have a maximum potential difference--- this applies to conductors as well as what we consider empty space-- that is the fields surrounding conductors. This potential difference could be considered capacitance only between nodes, that is the fields max and min potentials.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 24, 2008, 08:44:52 PM
The capacity effect is proportionate to the difference of potential between any two points of the coil. 

You reference to nodes sounds like fixed nodes.  With impulses, the nodes might come and go at the same locations. 
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: allcanadian on April 25, 2008, 12:32:26 AM
@grumpy
Quote
You reference to nodes sounds like fixed nodes.  With impulses, the nodes might come and go at the same locations.

I think a good analogy would be dropping a rock in a still pond, if we drop rocks at the right moment the waves will be continuous--a standing wave, they would be percieved to move but simply alternate the crest with the trough--one becomes the other through the other, a rythmic balanced interchange. So we could say the crest and trough are stationary nodes because they do not move they interchange in one space. Now imagine putting a stationary stick in this pond, the waves would appear to move up and down on the stick and they do but this is only one half of the potential of the wave, the full potential would be measured from the bottom of the trough to the peak of the crest not the average level of the pond upwards or downwards. That is the trough to crest difference in one instance in time--imagine a floating see-saw with one float in the trough and one float at the crest versus one float which can only harness one instance of the wave at a time.
Title: Re: Tesla Patent 512340 REDUX
Post by: Grumpy on April 25, 2008, 06:05:34 AM
not standing waves - except maybe to store energy

traveling waves - two types - impulses and oscillations.  Oscillation is just impulse that rotates.  Both are half of DC and AC - as DC and AC take two of these and we want to work with only one.