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Author Topic: Fallacies in Lee?Tseung Lead Out theory &Veljko Milkovic 2 Stage Mech amplifier  (Read 18036 times)

Offline hansvonlieven

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I am glad you like my site. Just a couple of comments.

In all the work I and others have done, mostly by experiment and measurement I have never found an increase in energy, ie amplification. Just like you I was looking just for that, because like you I was taken in by common mis-conceptions.

You will find that if you strike one tuning fork and bring another one close to it the second one will start vibrating. When measured however, in spite of what your senses appear to tell you the amplitude of both forks is exactly half of that of the first fork before the second one got into play. Both forks, in other words, share the energy of the first. There is no increase in the overall energy released into the environment.

In a trumpet for instance, the small sound produced by the mouthpiece causes oscillations in the entire air column inside the instrument. Again there is no increase in energy except a perceived one.

To explain this, strike a small drum with X force.

The drum will vibrate and produce a sound. If you now strike a kettle drum with exactly the same amount of force it will sound much much louder. Measurement however reveals that the amount of acoustic energy released is exactly the same.

In the small drum much of the energy manifests itself in harmonics that are inaudible (beyond 20,000 cps) In the kettle drum most of the generated spectrum is within hearing range, hence the difference.

The same thing happens with a string without a resonating body or cavity.

As far as the Milkovic device is concerned resonance does NOT come into play.

The oscillations in the Milkovic device are chaotic! In a chaotic system resonance does not occur except for spurious moments, which are always detrimental or antagonistic.

I will explain this further if you wish.

Hans von Lieven

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Offline Nabo00o

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Thank you for replying in a positive and constructive way, I do however feel that I still have some specific points where I do not agree/or understand you.

Okey first about the tuning forks you are probably right, although I would really have liked to see those measurements you are talking about, If they are available of course. Another thing about tuning forks is weather they are connected physically at their handle or weather they are just mutually affecting each other by sound waves in the air.


But now to the important part. You want to explain all the "perceived" increase in volume mainly as an effect of increasing the audible harmonics of a given sound, but then lowering the inaudible ones. I can agree that it would to a certain extend give the impression of an actual increase in total sound volume.

However, what I am experiencing and experimenting with tells me that is not a situation where unheard harmonics suddenly increase their level. This increase (which I btw can confirm is quite huge) can be done with a pure sine wave induced by a load speaker, thus hindering or completely destroy the notion that some harmonics was lowered while some was increased.

The order which I am talking about here which I can easily judge by listening, is probably somewhere from 5 to 10 times as loud a sound, and as you probably know, sound volume is logarithmic, and so a doubling of sound volume requires ten times as much energy.

The resonator which I have used to test this several times is a really small trumpet like instrument, combined with an ear bud (you know those small headphones you can stick in the ear), and a sound generation program which I have on my computer.

Edit: Also, I would say that Milkociv's pendulum requires resonance. If the driving energy supply to the pendulum was not in resonance with its mass and spring strength it would not create any useful oscillation.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 11:47:18 AM by Nabo00o »

Offline Nabo00o

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As also previously stated, I have tested some string instruments which doesn't originally have an attached resonator, and so the volume from the strings are pretty low. But by simply allowing the part of the string instrument which doesn't have a lot of mass (and so not a lot of inertia) and where the strings are connected to simply touch another object, be it a table, preferably made of wood, and many other objects, the sound volume can increase many times.

Again, you can hear that there isn't that much more harmonies that are being represented, but simply that the main fundamentals of each strings receive quite a big boost.

I think this is on topic because acoustics is very much related to mechanics, which is of course the category that the Milkovic pendulum goes under.

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Offline fritz

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As also previously stated, I have tested some string instruments which doesn't originally have an attached resonator, and so the volume from the strings are pretty low. But by simply allowing the part of the string instrument which doesn't have a lot of mass (and so not a lot of inertia) and where the strings are connected to simply touch another object, be it a table, preferably made of wood, and many other objects, the sound volume can increase many times.

Again, you can hear that there isn't that much more harmonies that are being represented, but simply that the main fundamentals of each strings receive quite a big boost.

I think this is on topic because acoustics is very much related to mechanics, which is of course the category that the Milkovic pendulum goes under.

Its all about impedance matching.
In acoustics, the travelling soundwaves are composed of pressure and wind.
Musical instruments use matched resonators to transform the energy from the source impedance to the free air impedance.
RF Transmitters optimize their performance by means of an electrical resonator network which matches the ouput impedance of the transmitter to the input impedance of the antenna which is matched to the impedance of em transmission in space.

If the impedances doesnt match, a part of the energy is reflected back gets destroyed or recycled, or is causing standing waves.


Offline Nabo00o

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Well are you telling me that it is only as little as 1:8 of the energy input which turns into audio in a normal loud speakers? Because that is around the level of amplification (if you turn the 8 and 1 around) that I am reaching with a simple conical resonator. I've also heard from someone that the amount of energy used to power radio transmitter does not correspond to the power leaving the LC circuits...

I must admit though that the concept of impedance matching is new to me  :D

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Offline fritz

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I must admit though that the concept of impedance matching is new to me  :D

Ok, lets start with an oscillating string.
Take a string, fix it at the endpoints.
Depending on the tension you will see a standing wave with varying frequency f.
The oscillation is terminated on both ends (low - almost zero impedance - in this case we call impedance the factor formed of displacement(moved mass) divided by torque at this point.
In the middle of the string, the displacement is maximum - the impedance is maximum, the torque is lowest.
Now you couple this swinging string with wire or whatever to another resonator which can be another string.
You will find out that you can transfer the most energy between those 2 systems if they are connected at the points where they have the same impedance.
Take a violin - the bridge couples the energy at the right point into the resonator.
I have a kind of cheap "electric" violin - and the problem here is that the resonator normally "sucks" energy from the oscillating string. Because an electric violin has no resonator - I have the problem of lots of displacement - which finally lowers the tone if too much excited.

In RF you have the same story, in this case the impedances is formed of voltage and current - or electrical vs. magnetic field.
 
In Air-Acoustic - same story.
In the nearfield of a subwoofer - you have lots of displacement / wind.
It takes a few meter until this wind ends up as stable soundwave.
Again the energy is composed/represented in 2 components forming an impedance.

Every time an oscillating energy is forced from one impedance to another you experience reflection if the 2 impedances are not the same.

You can even apply that to optics (.....) and lots of other things.

Impedance matching optimizes the efficiency - but is never OU.

In case of the Milkovic device, the lever matches the impedance between the low weight pendulum with lots of displacement to high weight hammer with less displacement.

If the setup is optimized - both sides can exchange energy with minimum losses.

rgds.

Offline fritz

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In case of the Milkovic device, the lever matches the impedance between the low weight pendulum with lots of displacement to high weight hammer with less displacement.


In the Milkovic setup, the hammer operates at an even fraction of the driving pendulum (frequency).
A non-sinusodial or even "square" part of this oscillation (if hammering) contains a high amount of 2nd order harmonics which (can be) are reflected and feed back to the driving oscillation.

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