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Author Topic: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban  (Read 414161 times)

Offline slapper

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1050 on: June 23, 2008, 03:55:13 AM »
wattsup and I started an exchange concerning the toroids here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4486.msg93644.html#msg93644

in this thread.

Take care.

nap

Offline poynt99

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1051 on: June 23, 2008, 05:28:57 AM »
thanks nap.

i've been aware of the bump on the inside and top of the 6" unit for a long time. i never equated that as a toroid though, but anything is possible without better detail in the pictures. so it's not very conclusive at the moment

the 4" device, there again, we have too few photos to really say. if we can't see daylight through it there might be a small enclosure for some electronics. so not very conclusive imo.

in both cases i'd say if our toroid was installed there, it would be quite obvious in the case for the 6", and it may not even fit within the 4" unit. has anyone done a size comparison i wonder?

one other note on the otpu, i'm not convinced that snapshot is showing a toroid. sure it looks roundish, but it sure isn't white or yellow in color. shadows may explain that, but i'm not convinced, sorry  :)

let's speculate for a minute and say that the toroid is used only for output filtering of emi. the otpu already has an emi filter onboard and no other toroid common-mode choke would be required. the onboard emi filter is the square silver one we've all seen by now. these filters use two coils just like the toroid common-mode choke.

why is the otpu the only one that uses one of these silver emi filters?

i'd say because it is in lieu of the toroid version, and so could explain why we can't see a toroid there.

Offline buzz-ard

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1052 on: June 23, 2008, 06:08:19 AM »
@aleks - While interesting, the MRA is not an OU device. See http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/mra/mra.txt. I did some casual study of piezo devices a couple of years back and decided that there was no real potential there, as piezos are good for producing vibration and resonance but can consume much power at higher operating levels. But I will say that I find the piezo-driven compressors now used in small refrigerators to be quite novel and innovative.

Offline aleks

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1053 on: June 23, 2008, 08:56:33 AM »
@aleks - While interesting, the MRA is not an OU device.
Well, you are referring to a single report and telling it's not an OU device. Not enough for a conclusion as its inventors say otherwise. It's like 50/50 situation. Why are you so easily favoring 'no OU' claim? Not to note that calorimeter measurements are lacking in both cases while they are the most important measurements in judging OU performance. Beside that my point is not about this exact piezo MRA. My point is that SM TPU may be working on similar concepts except that it uses magnetostrictive material as a resonator.

Offline aleks

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1054 on: June 23, 2008, 01:33:52 PM »
Note that magnetostrictive material (MSM) may be driven by piezo transducer to obtain full decoupling of "control" and "collector" parts of the device. Acoustic stimulation of MSM should theoretically produce magnetic force waves within and around the material that may easily induce electric potential in any nearby wire. If standing wave is created, the magnetic field will be strongest around this standing wave - in the case of circular plate, this standing wave will be strongest on the circumference. This standing wave and its magnetic field may then be collapsed by stopping acoustic stimulation for a moment. This will produce AC with "hash". Another possibility is induction of DC voltage which may seem impossible, but in the case of acoustic stimulation it is possible since standing wave consists of two or more wavefronts and thus represents interference of two or more moving AC waves (well, this is just an idea - it may be invalid).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:26:21 PM by aleks »

Offline aleks

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1055 on: June 23, 2008, 02:43:16 PM »
Terfenol-D is comparably brittle so it can be cut with even a wood saw I think.

Offline Vortex1

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1056 on: June 23, 2008, 03:18:14 PM »
 Regarding common mode chokes:

I have seen this type of common mode choke years ago in at least one of the surplus stores I used to visit. They are pulled from equipment complete with leads and mounting bracket.

I can say with almost certainty that they are common mode chokes (two matched dielectrically isolated windings, 1500 VAC minimun per U/L , CSA for 240 VAC line operation) But in SM's application, I don't believe they were for filtering noise because no other parts of the device are shielded in any way and will radiate beyond belief.

The common mode chokes are potted for two reasons;  to fix the core to the plastic insulating assembly which is part of the white separator and "washer" seen between the core and the mounting plate and to secure the "flying" leadwires, which were part of the assembly. These devices were made for mounting rigidly to the side wall of a chassis when space on the pc board is at a premium. These are rather large devices, perhaps too large to reliably mount vertically to a pc board using adhesive as is common on smaller units. There might be a "PEM" insert or stud on the opposite face of the mounting bracket or the mounting screw taps directly into the center of the plastic insulator. What is being interpreted as mounting feet are male terminals for grounding by solder or "faston" type disconnects, but could temporarily hold the core to the pc board before final rigid mounting to the sidewall..

Better questions to ask are: why would someone nead a toroidal transformer that has tight coupling between 1kHz and 100 kHz, excellent turns matching and high dielectric withstand? Which of these features are incidental, which are of prime importance?

these are just a few possible reasons, I'm sure others can think of more:.

1. Signals between the windings are in phase and must maintain electrical insulation in the required passband.
2. Signals between the windings are inverted and must maintain electrical insulation in the required passband
3. One side of the core is pulsed, producing a mirror image inverted pulse on the other winding. These identical opposite phased pulses drive "some other parts of the device".
4. A "fringe field" is produced by "bucking the windings". Possibly this is rotated in some manner.
5. This is a cheap way of getting a pre-wound transformer for an oscillator that can be driven many ways (Colpitts, Hartley, Armstrong, blocking ,etc)
6. It is easily biased or saturated with a small weak magnet.

just an opinion offered, not necessarily fact........V

Offline Spider

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1057 on: June 23, 2008, 03:56:02 PM »
@Vortex1,

Very nice! This is the kind of hands on knowlegde that is needed.

I just finished reading Otto's post about his description of a tpu runaway situation.
Maybe the inverted pulse into the control coils is the only way to brake the rotating magnetic field to keep things in check.

Just a thought.

Greetings Rene

Offline aleks

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1058 on: June 23, 2008, 04:02:02 PM »
3. One side of the core is pulsed, producing a mirror image inverted pulse on the other winding. These identical opposite phased pulses drive "some other parts of the device".
I had an idea connected to "inverted" signal and the acoustic stimulation I'm was posting about. The quickest way to "counter" the present standing wave is to change polarity of acoustic stimulation (instead of simply stopping it). Just an idea.

Offline wattsup

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1059 on: June 23, 2008, 05:23:29 PM »
@poynt99

For the 6TPU or the OPTU, it is practically impossible to understand what you are seeing via a single photo grab. This has to be looked at in motion, back and forth a few frames to actually realize this is a protruding toroid structure inside the 6TPU inner wall. Of course there will always be a level of "assumptions". But let me say that if you went back to day one of the SM saga and counted how many assumptions were made until today, I think we are doing pretty good work here in cutting out the fat. Yes I may ave jumped the gun on the 4TPU but spider has explained it pretty well.

Assumptions are made. tests are done and assumptions are changed. I made an assumption that the core was a speaker magnets, wound two speaker magnets, did some tests and have concluded that they are not speaker magnets. A ferrite toroid with two coils will transfer power form one to the other very neatly. Doing the same thing with a speaker magnet with two coils produces absolutely nothing. Pulse one coil and see on the scope the other and there is nothing., The magnet just cancels any potential exchange between the coils. Also, trying to displace the magnet field with a one layer winding is impossible. You would require a thick coil winding to do this and this does not concord with the TPU toroids one layer wind. So, this cannot eb a speaker magnet even though the dimension are very close to that of the TPU toroids.

You know this is not easy stuff. Just to discover one little morsel of new information, it sometimes requires hour and hours of obs, close ups, etc., etc.

@all

One question to ask is why would the FTPU use a toroid with four wires going to different locations on the TPU, whereas the LTPU is using two toroids but each toroid coil pair is in parallel. I had very closely mapped those wires going into their respective tapped wire bundles and had included these in my original LTPU wiring diagram. After the wires are connected together, and go towards the back end of the tpu ring where they are again re-bundled with other wires that I am now convinced are going to the control coils, you can see that at the midway of the wire travel from the toroids to the back, there are only two wires really connecting each toroid to the back.

Vortex1 put up some good info and this is the type of interrogations we need to hone in on plausible toroid uses. I am sticking with the FTPU as the target because it is the most open design.

We also need someone with good EE skills to help design a few control circuits given some basic function parameters and limitations on components that I am now preparing. I am at that stage where is want to start putting these parts together. I just wound a new toroid using the bucking winds and a nice new ferrite core that has some great transfer action. I will try this in my FTPU control coil and collector build I posted previously.

I am also looking to buy a real professional DC pulser that you can simply adjust pulse type, on time, off time going up to 100,000 cps. I need this badly because my EE stinks so much and I am tired of struggling any time I want to pulse something. lol

Offline poynt99

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1060 on: June 23, 2008, 08:41:44 PM »
wattsup,

have you seen the actual location and connection where the toroid wire pairs are connected in parallel?

Offline wattsup

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1061 on: June 23, 2008, 11:51:10 PM »
@poynt99

Here are three image grabs from one of the original videos on YouTube because these passages were not on the new better videos. (wonder why????).

The first image shows the rear bundles coming into the two wires that come forward to the each of the toroids. I am figuring that there are at least four wires from the back coming together onto two wires.

The second image shows the left toroid with black and white wires going together. The captions say the rest.

Now on the right LTPU toroid (third image) besides the four wires going out of the toroid and being connected to the two wires leading back, there is also another wire that is coming from what seems to be the white connector.

orbs

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Subtitles for HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1062 on: June 24, 2008, 04:47:34 AM »
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Videos:Jack_Durban:Steven_Marks_TPU

For those who would like to add English subtitles to the DVD, here are some instructions for Windows:
Download the subtitle files from the Downloads section as well as PgcDemux and Muxman. Start PgcDemux and configure it as shown below. This will create two large files VideoFile.m2v and AudioFile_80.ac3 (choose a location for Output Folder that can hold 4 or 8 GB). Place the subtitle files from the Zip archive in the same location and run Muxman with the *.mxp file loaded as project and click Start. That's it. (Maybe someone can figure out how to set chapter marks using the scene button or how to turn on subtitles by default.)

To cut the DVD after 32 (or 48) minutes, you can use VobBlanker as shown below (click Mark on End Mark in Prev/Cut after adjusting the slider). This reduces the size considerably.

Offline poynt99

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1063 on: June 24, 2008, 05:34:59 AM »
wattsup,

after reviewing the video and several of the stills i have, i simply can't concur with your assumptions (assuming i understand them correctly) about the 4 wires from each toroid turning into two somewhere inside the bundle.

again it looks maybe like a classic example of seeing more (or in this case less  :D) than what is actually there?

i see 4 wires from each toroid going into a bundle which then (all 4 ;) ) lead to the rim of the TPU---i don't see much else

Offline Grumpy

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Re: HIGH QUALITY TPU DVD Video Released from Jack Durban
« Reply #1064 on: June 24, 2008, 06:08:42 AM »
Could it be that the little toroids are to isolate and limit the feedback?  Naw!  Only been around since the 1920's.