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Author Topic: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)  (Read 338484 times)

pauldude000

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #480 on: July 18, 2008, 07:10:02 AM »
@jon

Good work.

Your scope shot does show the initial kick, but your system is also a damped wave. (The resonance of the "kick" dying out in the top of the square.)

I have been racking my brain to come up with a possible experiment which demonstrates only the kick itself. I think I have come up with something, and have initially tested the idea with pretty good success.....

I intend to demonstrate using one pancake coil wound CW, and a second one wound CCW both in the same plane. Both connected in parallel to directly short out any "transformer" effect, and with canceling mag fields which will cancel or "use up" and deaden out as much of the input signal and associated mag field effect as possible, leaving only the voltage artifact without resonation.

The initial test looks pretty good on scope, with an input driven only by a digital FG, it is putting in a signal at approx 9v, but the squares are deadened out to pretty much baseline with NO discernible damped wave resonance, and only the spike at the start of each wave peaking at around 14 or so Volts.

This should do, will have scope shots and diagram with instructions soon.

Paul Andrulis

poynt99

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #481 on: July 18, 2008, 09:56:42 AM »
Paul,

i'm a little confused  :(

you had said before that you've seen this effect many times and it is a common occurrence.

now you're devising a fancy experiment using coils to show the effect?  :o i presumed by the way you were talking that showing this effect would be a snap once you got your camera working.

sorry, my confidence just went down a little.

i expected that you would be using a piece of wire just as SM said. nothing fancy, no coils, no canceled mag fields.

where and how have you seen the effect exactly?

@buzz-ard

i thought you were going to show us your kick too  ???

forest

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #482 on: July 18, 2008, 11:09:11 AM »
Just two notes (untested):
- do 'make and break'  at the peak top to produce undamped oscillation
- avoid so called back EMF, if you build lenz-free device you will find something

I do not state that I know exactly what to do, these are only suggestions. I see back EMF as a waste not OU

buzz-ard

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #483 on: July 18, 2008, 03:36:44 PM »
@jon - Excellent! You have to build to learn, and it looks as if you have taken that to heart. I'm a little curious about your circuit board - it doesn't appear to be a prototyping backplane, but instead a manufactured design. No matter - the build looks good. Keep it up!

@poynt - I don't believe I said I would post on this. My bench has been inaccessible for about two months so I haven't posted much of anything lately. (Air conditioning has been out, and in Texas that's a real problem.) But I'm anxious to get back into things, and will post some relevant scope shots soon as I'm back in the saddle. Kicks really aren't that unusual. Empirically, it's easy to experience - just turn on a stereo with the volume up and listen for the thump.

@Paul - Sorry I'm not in there with you. For Poynt's proof-of-concept, try a simple coil with at least 50 turns or more, and hit it hard. I've found that the kick is easier to see with a longer conductor. It happens too fast in just a short straight section of wire, and a bit of delay (or should I say the amount of time the pulse is in the wire) seems helpful for the scope to pick it up.

poynt99

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #484 on: July 18, 2008, 04:41:01 PM »
@ Kicks really aren't that unusual. Empirically, it's easy to experience - just turn on a stereo with the volume up and listen for the thump.

that's just inrush current. a common thing, but not ou.

i hope we're not talking about this?  :-\

innovation_station

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #485 on: July 18, 2008, 05:00:14 PM »
that's just inrush current. a common thing, but not ou.

i hope we're not talking about this?  :-\

@pont   you make me lol

what might the inrush current be?

ist

buzz-ard

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #486 on: July 18, 2008, 05:04:28 PM »
@poynt - I think that's the concern Paul expressed, that we're talking about inrush current, which we're not. It's the make & break events that cause the kick. On the make event, the inrush comes right after the kick. On the break event, the kick happens at the moment the circuit is broken. Tesla speaks to this also, emphasizing the importance of super-fast drop times.

innovation_station

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #487 on: July 18, 2008, 05:46:50 PM »
and what does super fast drop times imply ??


not a cap  ;)

ist

poynt99

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #488 on: July 18, 2008, 05:54:04 PM »
@poynt - I think that's the concern Paul expressed, that we're talking about inrush current, which we're not. It's the make & break events that cause the kick. On the make event, the inrush comes right after the kick. On the break event, the kick happens at the moment the circuit is broken. Tesla speaks to this also, emphasizing the importance of super-fast drop times.

inrush currents, as far as my understanding goes, only happen when non-aircore cores are used. so keep it all air core and inrush current should not be present or a concern. if i'm wrong, then i'm listening.








@ist--pfo

buzz-ard

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #489 on: July 18, 2008, 06:22:01 PM »
@poynt - On that I agree with you. Air cores have been the only ones that have given me any results worth pursuing while researching the TPU. Metal cores seem to dampen the kick effect while promoting inrush (I didn't even post my Renerator build attempt, the results were so pitiful). But the kick and some inrush happens in any circuit when power is applied. There has been much engineering devoted to bringing up power slowly to mitigate the effects of both the kick and the inrush. For instance, recall Tesla's work with DC generators, where men were getting killed when they brought them online. I've seen several solid-state examples as well. The one that stands out most in my memory employed a modified form of 0V switching, designed so that appreciable current flow was delayed until well after the switch (transistor) closed. The result was that power trickled at first then ramped up to operating level over several dozen milliseconds, and the failure rate of the application went way down. This approach is probably old hat now, but seemed novel at the time.

@Paul - You've built Tesla coils, right? (I have not.) From a safety perspective, do you power them up all at once, or bring them up incrementally?

Added after original post: I think many folks may see the initial voltage spike caused by transformer action and believe it is the kick. It is not. The kick is much faster and weaker. It shows up my scope very faintly and only in the smallest time divisions, so far. SM hinted that it's hard to see, but he's right - it is there.

pauldude000

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #490 on: July 18, 2008, 07:14:50 PM »
@poynt99 and Buzz

Let me explain a little better my current understanding and it may clear up a little confusion. I think the kick has to do with voltage leading the current on a cold circuit. However, I USED to think it a magnetic field effect, as do many others still. However, I do not think it a magnetic field effect, but probably an electric field effect. I cannot state for sure, as I am guessing at this point. However, what I am seeing ties closely to Loners statement of a "pressure" wave front (or voltage in this case). The "kicks" also tend to caused a damped wave resonance in an improperly tuned circuit, which is what had me fooled for a long time. The effects tend to mask the event.

However, I do know that the "kicks" are easily reproducible, but from my own semi-skeptical viewpoint, I also know that the other scope shots I could produce, excuses would abound about what is being seen.

Almost all of these possible excuses have to do with the magnetic field. Therefore, cancel the field, cancel the excuses.
 
Another major excuse is "transformer action". Remove the possibility of transformer action, no excuse.

Another major excuse is resonance action. Remove the possibility of resonance, no excuse.

Otherwise, I could post scope shots all day long of the effect in various forms, and we would hear nothing but "It is this or that". Reproducing the kicks are simple. Reproducing the kicks where someone cannot easily disregard them is not necessarily so easy.

Now Poynt, I am not saying you would do this, but I know there are hundreds here whom would, and I don't feel like any more senseless arguments from them. What is worse, I know there will be even with the experiment I have designed.  :-[

If anyone sees exceptions to the rule they would like to see canceled out as a possibility, now is the time as I will be doing the scope work/ pics Sunday. (I have been having to work on a stinking car, this afternoon I have to replace a starter, and tomorrow is the sabbath.)

Paul Andrulis

pauldude000

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #491 on: July 18, 2008, 07:40:20 PM »
@Buzz

Concerning the longer piece of wire.....

I have noticed that too. I wonder why?

I have seen as well that just having a longer piece of wire gives a greater rise in voltage to the kick effect. However, this is contrary to what my understanding and imaginations yields.

Why greater voltage with a longer wire, since it is not an induction effect, nor is it a resonant effect, though it can cause resonation? ? ? ? ? ( Does resistance play a part? ) Because it can modify magnetic fields, it stands to reason that it is tied hand in hand with the magnetic field, which yields me to tentatively think either electric field, or a different moving charge effect.

This is puzzling, but I enjoy solving puzzles. The more difficult the better in my book.

EDIT ADDED:

I have also noticed that there is a relationship to the amount of voltage rise in a given wire to the amount of impressed voltage at a given signal frequency. It is not linear, as with higher impressed voltages comes a much higher voltage spike. It is not linear, it is a mathematical ratio of some kind. Much later, I need to devise a set of experiments where I can define this ratio to a tentative formula.

Paul Andrulis


buzz-ard

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #492 on: July 18, 2008, 08:12:13 PM »
Let me explain a little better my current understanding and it may clear up a little confusion. I think the kick has to do with voltage leading the current on a cold circuit. However, I USED to think it a magnetic field effect, as do many others still. However, I do not think it a magnetic field effect, but probably an electric field effect. I cannot state for sure, as I am guessing at this point. However, what I am seeing ties closely to Loners statement of a "pressure" wave front (or voltage in this case). The "kicks" also tend to caused a damped wave resonance in an improperly tuned circuit, which is what had me fooled for a long time. The effects tend to mask the event.

IMHO, I do not believe it is a direct magnetic effect either, as kick and inrush occur in circuits in space systems (don't ask). SM's quote from the EE book about kicks was composed before the 70s, and tying the effect to the earth's magnetic field was a convenient explanation at the time. The kick only occurs in a cold circuit, as a warm circuit implies that there is already a pathway established. A warm circuit when pulsed exhibits a surge but no kick. In a cold circuit, there is an induced magnetic component as the fields around the conductor are established and atoms are entrained, just before flow can be measured - this from quantum physics. Also from quantum physics, a small number of 'looser' electrons will entrain more easily than average and start things moving before the coming inrush - this is SM's "kick" and Loner's "wavefront", and can be interpreted as 'free energy' because there was no traditional work done to cause the movement of these electrons. In a broader statement, the kick we see is the establishment of a voltage environment that joules can be transmitted through.

forest

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #493 on: July 18, 2008, 08:40:27 PM »
IMHO, I do not believe it is a direct magnetic effect either, as kick and inrush occur in circuits in space systems (don't ask). SM's quote from the EE book about kicks was composed before the 70s, and tying the effect to the earth's magnetic field was a convenient explanation at the time. The kick only occurs in a cold circuit, as a warm circuit implies that there is already a pathway established. A warm circuit when pulsed exhibits a surge but no kick. In a cold circuit, there is an induced magnetic component as the fields around the conductor are established and atoms are entrained, just before flow can be measured - this from quantum physics. Also from quantum physics, a small number of 'looser' electrons will entrain more easily than average and start things moving before the coming inrush - this is SM's "kick" and Loner's "wavefront", and can be interpreted as 'free energy' because there was no traditional work done to cause the movement of these electrons. In a broader statement, the kick we see is the establishment of a voltage environment that joules can be transmitted through.

I'm not EE and don't know much about that kick but a magnetic nature and Earth magnetic field as a source or cause seem resonable for me. I recall also SM talking about inertia and this would perfectly explain why this effect manifests itself only in cold circuit. I have no experience in that, please explain - this kick is something hidden behind so called back EMF which occurs always from my experience when pulsing a large self-induction coil like car ignition coil ?

buzz-ard

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Re: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.)
« Reply #494 on: July 18, 2008, 08:41:28 PM »
@ Paul - I believe the difference with longer wire is the number of 'loose' electrons present. I, too, have seen that the effect is greater with higher voltages, and there are different voltage levels in each build where the kick shows inordinate gain or little at all. I believe this is in part due to what appears to be a resonance effect but is actually a function of how long it takes the pulse to propagate to the other end coupled with make/break efficiency. Sharp on + tiny ontime + sharp off = maximum kick from both events. SM trimmed the length of his wires to 'tune' them, reducing the amount of time the pulse was on the wire and thus the time to return to a 'cold' state, until it matched the coil arrangement.

How to integrate the effect with suitable coil windings to harness and amplify the resulting output is where I am falling short. Early on in lurking here, I wished for calculations that might tell us the minimum number of turns/wire composition/voltage required. Otto did some work in this direction early on and posted it on the forum (soldering wire!). The necessary calculations would be fairly routine quadratics that could predict the effects of a given change in a given build, but alas, until we can produce something that can be routinely replicated the formulae cannot be constructed.

Until then, perhaps we could determine kick potential in varying lengths and gauges of wire, not unlike Otto did, then try to figure out the number of turns and coil dimensions to produce resonance for the kick frequency. I think I'll spend some time on this soon as I can fire the bench back up.