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New Battery systems => Saltwater cells => Topic started by: hartiberlin on August 18, 2005, 02:06:50 AM
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Hi All,
I did today again a few test, cause I wanted to see, if the
crystall battery effect of M. Reid and John Hutchinson could
be made with an aluminium plate and a mix of SIO2 ( sand)
and graphite powder.
Therefore I took an aluplate about 2 mm thickness and about 25 x 15 cm wide
and scrubbed the oxid layer away with sandpaper of the aluplate and then
applied to the blank surface a mix of SIO2 and graphite powder, which I had mixed
very well with my electric coffee mixer.
I took some tap water to make the graphite-SIO2 mix wet like a paste and
painted this as a small layer directly onto the aluplate surface.
As the aluplate immediately build up an Aluoxid layer we have a very small
layer of maybe a diode there at these surface layer.
The result is, that in the wet state we have a battery cell of about 0.5 to 0.6 Volts
between the wet sand-graphite mix and the aluplate and a shortcircuit current of
about 1 to 2 mA can be drawn.
Then I put the aluplate on my oven and heated the plate with the sand-graphite mix
on it so that all water was evapouring and going off the mix.
When the aluplate? was finally pretty hot, so I could not touch it anymore
and the water was gone, the voltage was going down to almost zero and
also no current could be pulled anymore from the plate.
So this was rather disappointing, as I have thought, that maybe some
electrical output could be generated in a dry state without the galvanic
effect as in the wet state...
Okay, I did not wait until the plate was totally cooled down and I scrubbed
down again the mix from the plate and this time I added tablesalt ( NACL)
to the mix, made again a paste with water with it and again
painted it onto the plate as a thin layer of maybe 1 to 2? mm thickness.
Now this time the wet state generated much more power:
about 0.7 Volts and the short circuit current was around 3 to 5 mA !
When I then began to heat the aluplate again on the oven
the shortcircuit current also went up to about 10 mA.
Then when? all water has dried out of the paste mix,
the voltage of the cell was only 0.13 Volts and the
short circuit current was only 1 mA.
So well, it seems when one heats the plate too fast
and too long, that all the crystals that form in the mix
will be destroyed and the needed surface layers of the aluminiumoxid
are somehow destroyed.
It seems this cell only works well due to the galvanic effect in a wet state,
but if NACL is added also in the dry state there is still some output.
I have to recheck this again by letting the pastemix dry much slower
itsself, so one can see, if in the dry state there is more output then,
when the saltcrystalls can grow slower and more stable inside the
paste.
I will let you know.
Enclosed is a picture of the plate with just the graphite-sand paste
in a dry state ontop of it.
I just placed the meter with one pin ontop of the graphite-mix and
with the other tip directly at the aluplate.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: if you click onto the small thumbnail you will see the picture in the original
640x480 size. This picture was made with my mobile phone, so it is a bit unsharp.Sorry.
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P.S: It could be, that in the second test with the added NACL
I did not remove ALL water from the mix, cause I did not heat it too long
and as the NaCL is a bit hygroscopic ( tried to suck in water from the air)
that there remained some water inside the paste mix and thus
all output is only due to galvanic action
and not the effect that Hutchinson and Markus Reid have in their
crystall batteries.
I guess I must retry it with the same salts that Markus Reid is using.
Regards, Stefan.
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Now after about an hour later the cell is up again to
0.25 volts open circuit and 2.5 mA short circuit current.
Maybe the salt in the mix has attracted now again some
water from the air, so now the galvanic process has started again ?
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Now after again about 1 hour later the cell has gone up to 0.32 Volts open circuit
and shortcircuit current is 3.5 mA.
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Stefan, do you use a second plate on the top side of the paste graphite-SIO2 mix?
How you did the voltage measurement? By putting the probe head of you voltagemeter directly into the dry mix and the other one on the plate? If you use a second plate on the top of the mix the contact-surface between the mix and the two plates should be much larger - and maybe the amount of mAmpers too?
How about using 2 plates with your mix between which are applied by a low DC voltage during the drying-process?
Maybe the current have any organising effect to the forming of the cristall-structur?
Bye.. Gast
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Hi Gast, you are right, I just put the meter probe onto the mix.
As the graphite is pretty conductive, this is pretty okay.
Yes, you can get more current out, if you would put a graphite plate onto the mix
at the top, but graphite plates are expensive!
You can get the same current out with a different method, that I will not yet reveal
over here. ;)
Yes, a small current during the drying process really helps.
This can be done easily by applying a resistor load to the cell.
This helps to form the crystals in the right direction, so the
current later is bigger.
The big question still is, if the cell will also work, when all
water is evapourated out of the mix.
I have now re-weted the mix and now just let it dry outside
slowly in the sun.
When it was reweted, the cell again puts out 0.66 Volts and
around 10 mA .
Regards, Stefan.
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>> Yes, you can get more current out, if you would put a graphite plate onto the mix
>> at the top, but graphite plates are expensive!
What about an empty beverage can made from aluminium and a graphite rod from an pencil in the middle of the can?
(a composition like a normal battery. Maybe you can open and wear away an old 1,5 Volt battery which is made from zinc and graphit and fill in your own stuff)
>> Yes, a small current during the drying process really helps.
Oh, did you still verify it?
>> When it was reweted, the cell again puts out 0.66 Volts and around 10 mA.
Hmmm, but this sounds more like a normal elecrtrolytical reaction. Nothing what is caused by the cristaline structure.
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Yes, this can be done, using an empty beverage can, but they normally
have not aluminium but other metal alloys, so the voltage can be lower
and you have to make sure you put out the plastic coating of it on the
inner walls.
But as the surface mainly matters it is better to put the graphite-salt mix
better on larger plates or bigger sizzed alufoils and thus get more output current this way.
Also if you use Zamak alloy you have a much longer lasting time of the metals,
but Zamak is harder to get than alufoil, which you can buy in every supermarket.
Yes, the current helps to build up a better cells. Walter Hofmann has
already done this and has first seen it.
When I applied the heat from the oven and shortcircuited the cell
during heating, the current did rise and afterwards had a bigger value,
so it helps to have a current running during the crystal forming process.
Yes, I agree, when the graphite-salt-mix is wet the cell just works mainly
on the galvanic process and uses up the aluminium metal.
Regards. Stefan.
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Sorry Stefan, but what is "zamak alloy"? Alloy = "legierung", but zamak... I don't know.
>> When I applied the heat from the oven and shortcircuited the cell
>> during heating, the current did rise and afterwards had a bigger value,
Hm, shortcutting the cell will result in a current with an max amount which the cell is able to produce at this moment.
So if the cell is low on power it will result in an lower current for the forming-process.
Did Walter Hofmann (or you) test the forming process using a higher current provide by an external power source?
Regards Gast
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Have a look at:
http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MZN40A (http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MZN40A)
and
http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MZN43A (http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MZN43A)
No, I have not yet tested an external bigger current.
That might be a good idea to try.
Do you think it should be pulsed DC or just only DC current ?
Regards, Stefan.
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Stefan, thank you for the links.
>> Do you think it should be pulsed DC or just only DC current ?
If you have the possibilities try both. I would test plain DC first. Good success!
Regards Gast
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Well I had a curious thing happening today.
As I came back to the plate this morning, there was some black
slurry gasing out of a few holes in the graphite paste mix
and some black surry water droplets formed on the surface.
The black surry had a NEGATIVE voltage ( about - 0.1 Volt) versus the alu plate)
compared to the rest of the
black mix, which still had around 0.4 Volts versus the aluplate? !
Hmm, I then heated the plate again on the oven? until all
water was gone and evapourated.
The gasing out of the holes was then
accelerating... so there must have been some
kind of chemical reaction been going on...
Pretty strange that it just started only 2 days after I made the
plate with the mix on the top... Hmm...
Then there was no voltage left and also no current
( still in a heated temperature)
Then when the temperature had dropped 30 minutes later to
room temperature, there is again about 0.3 Volts and 2.5 mA available.
Maybe the mix sucks in water from the air and thus can again
generate a galvanic? process ?
Regards, Stefan.
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Hi gast,
yes I did try prety much al kind of external power AC up to 40Khz and DC also current up to 6 Amp, what is happening is that the cells then work like a capacitor and you can use the amount charged but no more comes out and the cell does not generate the same amount of power then without the charging. On the contrary if the cells are short circuit at the start up in specific intervalls the cell will perform a much higher and longer lasting output. The most importand part is that the alu or alloy is insulated from the graphite in order to get the most current out the insulation increases the current up to 100%. to insulate alu you can use a chemical version where on the alu plate is a kind of honey comb oxide created what insulates the plate totally but the graphit will go in to alle the tiny cave's.
greetings
walt
Sorry Stefan, but what is "zamak alloy"? Alloy = "legierung", but zamak... I don't know.
>> When I applied the heat from the oven and shortcircuited the cell
>> during heating, the current did rise and afterwards had a bigger value,
Hm, shortcutting the cell will result in a current with an max amount which the cell is able to produce at this moment.
So if the cell is low on power it will result in an lower current for the forming-process.
Did Walter Hofmann (or you) test the forming process using a higher current provide by an external power source?
Regards Gast
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Hi stefan,
yes I did have the phenomen with the black slurry droplets to, it is a combination of chemical reaction, the electrical short build by direct applying the graphit on to the surface of the alu plate and the air. I have seen this only if the hole setup is not enclosed the same thing happening if the graphite is to moist then the water will be drawn to the surface and build sometimes even a hole layer of water what is then dangerous to the contact material.
further it is importand the use a cantact plate for the connection to the graphite bedcause without you only pick up what the leadtip surface can take what is not much thats why you only get the smale amount of current. with your setup size you should get at least 0.8V open circuit and 80 to 100 mA short circuit.
That the process startet only 2 days after the initial setup is common if you remeber my first couple tests because thats the initial priming process sometimes it takes up to 5 days and this is what you can shorten with the intervall short and after this the hole cell will settle to the final output value.
The accelerating of the gases comes from the direct connection of the graphite and is a mix of hydrogen and chlor gases pretty much the same thing what you can experience with the setup in a glas with saltsolution a alu or alloy rod and a graphite rod and applying external charge.
Further depends the graphit sand mixture on the kind of sand what you are using because there are many diffferent typ's of sand the simplest test is to take some put it on a moist sponge and polish a piece of alu if you got deep scratches the sand is hard ( its called sharp sand) and will not work as well as soft sand ( like beach sand) and then there is the question what impurities in what amount the sand holds.
greetings
walt
Well I had a curious thing happening today.
As I came back to the plate this morning, there was some black
slurry gasing out of a few holes in the graphite paste mix
and some black surry water droplets formed on the surface.
The black surry had a NEGATIVE voltage ( about - 0.1 Volt) versus the alu plate)
compared to the rest of the
black mix, which still had around 0.4 Volts versus the aluplate? !
Hmm, I then heated the plate again on the oven? until all
water was gone and evapourated.
The gasing out of the holes was then
accelerating... so there must have been some
kind of chemical reaction been going on...
Pretty strange that it just started only 2 days after I made the
plate with the mix on the top... Hmm...
Then there was no voltage left and also no current
( still in a heated temperature)
Then when the temperature had dropped 30 minutes later to
room temperature, there is again about 0.3 Volts and 2.5 mA available.
Maybe the mix sucks in water from the air and thus can again
generate a galvanic? process ?
Regards, Stefan.
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Have a look here.
Directly uploaded via mobile phone via MMS.
When we will have the mail2SMF function, I could
post directly over here the pics via mobile phone,
but the mail2SMF function is not yet ready, so go here:
http://phlog.net/user/harti (http://phlog.net/user/harti)
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Well, the paste mix is now prety scratch proof glued onto the surface
after several wettening/ heating processes.
I will next try with a cloth layer between the aluplate and the paste
mix to see, if the current will rise.
Regards, Stefan.
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Hello Walter,
>> yes I did try prety much al kind of external power AC up to 40Khz and DC also current up to 6 Amp, what is
>> happening is that the cells then work like a capacitor and you can use the amount charged
Intresting. And in such a cell is nothing more than Alu (alloy), sand, graphite and water?
(I don't observed Stefans [and yours] experiment from the very beginning)
What is about the voltage, if you use such a cell as an capacitor? If you charge it for example with 12 Volts, did you get also 12 Volt from the cell after this?
I ask, because if the cell is used in "battery-mode" without charging, then the voltage amounts are very low if I take a look on Stefans results.
>> but no more comes out and the cell does not generate the same amount of power then without the charging.
>> On the contrary if the cells are short circuit at the start up in specific intervalls the cell will perform a much higher
>> and longer lasting output.
Hm, strange behavior.
>> The most importand part is that the alu or alloy is insulated from the graphite in order to
Stefan use an sand/graphite mixture on a sanding alu plate. How can the graphite (in the mix) be insulated from the plate? This is not realy clear to me.
>> to insulate alu you can use a chemical version where on the alu plate is a kind of honey comb oxide created what
>> insulates the plate totally but the graphit will go in to alle the tiny cave's.
I understand correct? The insulation consist of oxidized alu? But how the honey comb structur is build up? Is it a special production process (from the manufacter of the plate) or a self-acting chemical process that causees this structure?
Anyway. I ask myself during reading this topic: Is such a cell a solution for our energy-problems? We talk about 0.4 volts and very low currents. How big must a cell-array be to supply a whole 4 persons household?
Regards, Gast
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Hi gast,
Hello Walter,
>> yes I did try prety much al kind of external power AC up to 40Khz and DC also current up to 6 Amp, what is
>> happening is that the cells then work like a capacitor and you can use the amount charged
Intresting. And in such a cell is nothing more than Alu (alloy), sand, graphite and water?
(I don't observed Stefans [and yours] experiment from the very beginning)
Walt: we have to make clear that my AG-cells are different then stefans but I did this tests too yes the material used in my tests with alu was graphite and alu no sand.
What is about the voltage, if you use such a cell as an capacitor? If you charge it for example with 12 Volts, did you get also 12 Volt from the cell after this?
Walter: no you should not charge with a higher voltage then 4 volt and then you only get after settling about 1.5 to 2 volt
I ask, because if the cell is used in "battery-mode" without charging, then the voltage amounts are very low if I take a look on Stefans results.
Walter: yes in stefans case till now it is verry low but this comes after my experience from the direct contact between the aluplate and the graphite and also like mentioned before from the contact tips because the tips only pick up fractions
>> but no more comes out and the cell does not generate the same amount of power then without the charging.
>> On the contrary if the cells are short circuit at the start up in specific intervalls the cell will perform a much higher
>> and longer lasting output.
Hm, strange behavior.
>> The most importand part is that the alu or alloy is insulated from the graphite in order to
Stefan use an sand/graphite mixture on a sanding alu plate. How can the graphite (in the mix) be insulated from the plate? This is not realy clear to me.
Walter: in stefans case with the heating it would mean a seperation sheet what can withstand the temperatur
>> to insulate alu you can use a chemical version where on the alu plate is a kind of honey comb oxide created what
>> insulates the plate totally but the graphit will go in to alle the tiny cave's.
I understand correct? The insulation consist of oxidized alu? But how the honey comb structur is build up? Is it a special production process (from the manufacter of the plate) or a self-acting chemical process that causees this structure?
Walter: No you need to do this chemical reaction before you start with the graphite. you can use a weak sulfuric acid and pass a low voltage current thru it positive to alu negative to a piece of lead for about 1 hour. similar procedure is also used for anodizing alu.
Anyway. I ask myself during reading this topic: Is such a cell a solution for our energy-problems? We talk about 0.4 volts and very low currents. How big must a cell-array be to supply a whole 4 persons household?
Walter: I believe this hole scenario is not intend for solving any kind of energy problems the intend on the whole is to have a solution what gives a longtime power source ( up to 100 times then regulaer batteries) for low current application like emergency lighting, small radios, and the whole array of comercial application like beacon, sensor etc.
Maybe one day when people understand that the enourmus waste of power? what we have now and dont need is the real source of the crisis and then it could be developed together with new circuits as a alternate source.
My AG-cells are providing 1.2V open circuit and upt to 2 A short circuit current and I can power as a sample up to 4 white LED's with four of the AG-cells in series up to 2,200 hours continiously. If you wana read more about my cells you can go to the old group archive and read unter walts waterpowerd cells.
Regards, Gast
greetings
walt
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Walter,
thank you very much for your wide answers by return.
Regards Gast
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Gast, I am currently trying to see, if I can get some small power out
of these cells without galvanic action, just as the Hutchinson or
Markus Reid cell use no wet electrolyt and can convert heat
directly to electrical energy.
Regards, Stefan.
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I have uploaded 2 new pics over here:
http://phlog.net/user/harti (http://phlog.net/user/harti)
the first shows the etched surface of the aluplate after
removing the graphite-salt-sand-mix paste
and the second
shows the new test with a sheet of
cleaning paper between paste mix and aluplate
in a heated state.
There you can see, that the milliampsare just only 0.02 mA
which is 20 uA !
This is very low.
It is still on the oven heating plate.
so when it cools down and the paste sucks in again water
from the air, the shortcircuit current will rise again.
But it is much lower all in all in the case with paper towel sheet !
So it is really better to use a galvanix cell without it.
The aluminiumoxid layer is enough to be the shieling layer
for the cell.
In wet state the shortcircuit current without the sheet is still about 5 times
higher.
So it seems this setup can only be used for galvanic
action, but not for the crystal battery effect ala Hutchison/Reid.
Regards, Stefan.
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Hi, All.
I would like to know the lifespan of the voltage.Does the battery recharge off the water?(in the air or added).
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I have uploaded 2 new pics over here:
http://phlog.net/user/harti (http://phlog.net/user/harti)
the first shows the etched surface of the aluplate after
removing the graphite-salt-sand-mix paste
and the second
shows the new test with a sheet of
cleaning paper between paste mix and aluplate
in a heated state.
There you can see, that the milliampsare just only 0.02 mA
which is 20 uA !
This is very low.
It is still on the oven heating plate.
so when it cools down and the paste sucks in again water
from the air, the shortcircuit current will rise again.
But it is much lower all in all in the case with paper towel sheet !
So it is really better to use a galvanix cell without it.
The aluminiumoxid layer is enough to be the shieling layer
for the cell.
In wet state the shortcircuit current without the sheet is still about 5 times
higher.
So it seems this setup can only be used for galvanic
action, but not for the crystal battery effect ala Hutchison/Reid.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi stefan,
something must be wrong maybe your meter has bad lead or connection. I did the same setup with 50 % sand and 50% regular graphite powder mixt to a stiff mud with a 1% saltsolution and put on a few different aluplates. The opencircuit Voltage was in every case more then 1V direckt and 0.9V with paper insulation and between 130mA direckt to 225mA with papertowel short circuit. As contact on top of the graphite mix I used one piece of the flexible graphit strips from you. The aluplates was 2.5 X 6 cm.
After heating it for 2 hours at 160 grad C till it was bone dry it did also show only 0.2 to 0.4V and 2 to 4 mA and this did show that with this methode it does not work like hudchinson/marcus reid.Like you sayd.
The same test with my special graphite mix brought even 530 to 720 mA short circuit by 1.25V opencircuit.
I thought it maybe interesst you.
greetings
walt
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Hi Walter,
with the towel paper in between I only get about 0.8 mA maximum
when the pate mix is wet.
Without the towelpaper I got around 10 mA maimum.
When the paste mix is dry, I almost get no current out of it,
less than 20 uA .
Regards, Stefan.
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Hi Walter,
with the towel paper in between I only get about 0.8 mA maximum
when the pate mix is wet.
Without the towelpaper I got around 10 mA maimum.
When the paste mix is dry, I almost get no current out of it,
less than 20? uA .
Regards, Stefan.
Hi stefan,
something is generally wrong here, like seyd before I replicated your test and the results are like described before, now the only difference are the aluplate I have used two different kind one is the same material where the streetsigns are made from the other is like a bar. I sanded them clean and then applied like described. the other is the graphite powder i used the drillout powder what is just plain graphit powder and as sand ones i used ordinary construction sand and then I used beachsand. But I used als contact to the graphit sand mix a small graphite plate 20X30mm with a alligator clip. as meter I use my two DVM meter setup one for voltage on 2 V and the other for current set on 20 A with different switchable resistors like 1 , 10, 33, 50, and 100 ohm.
As the papertowel i used the kind what does not ripp so easely and did wet it first in the same saltwater solution where the mix are made from.
The measurements like described are in the wet stage. the sort circuit current is just the amount after about 2 second because with this measurement methode the current runs down verry fast.
if I find the time I will make a few picture and poste them.
After the mix is tryid out is another story there is pretty much nothing and there you are right.
greetings
walter
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hello all
this is my first post
I'm interestred in the salt water cell.
My idea is to convert the salt to m state matter the formular seems very simple and monatomic elements are knowen to be superconductors.
Hutchinson's vid shows him adding a fine white powder to make an everlasting battery. I was wondering if this was m-state material.
check out
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/ormus/ormus.htm
for the method
Has anyone done any experiments with this stuff. I would be interested to konw about it
Cheers
Power
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Not even commercially made "dry cells" can operate without some amount of moisture in the electrolyte paste. Y'all might consider THAT li'l factoid.
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http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/make_your_own_chemalloy_battery.htm (http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/make_your_own_chemalloy_battery.htm)
Regards, Bruce A. Perreault