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Author Topic: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'  (Read 144081 times)

gyulasun

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2008, 01:00:01 AM »
Hi Sandy,

Was it this text here: http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm
.....
Counsel

Speaking of your not having perfectly undamped waves at that time, you were referring to that character of circuit?

Tesla

Yes, but with another kind of circuit I could, of course.  The advantage of this apparatus was the delivering of energy at short intervals whereby one could increase activity, and with this scheme I was able to perform all of those wonderful experiments which have been reprinted from time to time in the technical papers.  I would take energy out of a circuit at rates of hundreds or thousands of horsepower.  In Colorado, I reached 18 million horsepower activities, but that was always by this device: Energy stored in the condenser and discharged in an inconceivably small interval of time.  You could not produce that activity with an undamped wave.  The damped wave is of advantage because it gives you, with a generator of 1 kilowatt, an activity of 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 kilowatts; whereas, if you have a continuous or undamped wave, 1 kilowatt gives you only wave energy at the rate of 1 kilowatt and nothing more.   That is the reason why the system with a quenched gap has become popular.

I have refined this so that I have been able to take energy out of engines by drawing on their momentum.  For instance, if the engine is of 200 horsepower, I take the energy out for a minute interval of time, at a rate of 5,000 or 6,000 horsepower, then I store [it] in a condenser and discharge the same at the rate of several millions of horsepower.  That is how these wonderful effects are produced.  The condenser is the most wonderful instrument, as I have stated in my writings, because it enables us to attain greater activities than are practical with explosives.  There is no limit to the energy which you can develop with a condenser.  There is a limit to the energy which you can develop with an explosive.
....

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2008, 03:28:58 AM »
@argona
it's a funny old world - you run your 'thumper' and onlly get 1000V on your cap and its a disaster - if i got 1000V i'd be ordering the champagne

on the other hand, if you were getting  25% (of 125kV) self-recharge volts on your caps you might have stored them away with a shorting strap in place!

@Gyula
yes, some of that wording looks familiar - however, the rest of the wording looks new, so i'm thinking that what i read was either a highly-edited version of that interview, or else someone had taken a selection of the statements and made their own 'quote' of Tesla out-of-context

thanks for finding that - i'm glad i've seen the full version now!

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2008, 09:58:01 AM »
@tak22 & NerzhDishual
more detail on inductor, as promised:-

- 0.45mm diam. laquered copper wire (solderable)
- wound in two sections, one each on two tubular ferrites:
  a)3cm long x 1.8cm o/diam., 0.7cm i/diam. approx
  b)2.2cm long x 3.2cm o/diam., 2cm i/diam. approx
- approx 2 full layers wound tightly on ferrite (a) so that it can just slide inside ferrite (b);
- approx 3 full layers wound tightly on ferrite (b)
- 2R total resistance (approx), connected in series, sequence selected for highest C3 volts

to begin with, i would suggest just using the type (b) ferrite with all the turns in one winding

i'll try that also and confirm here if it is really necessary to use type (a) and type (b) together

the biasing ring-magnet is not needed - it makes no visible difference in the current experiment

however, placing the inductor in between additional type (b) ferrites at each end does increase the output by a visible amount (a few %?)

i've tried some alternative diodes and found that Silicon signal diodes are ok

they increased the total time taken to charge C3 and reduced the output slightly but i was able to adjust the switching on/off periods to bring the total voltage back to 2.67V over an approx 45s period

so, types 1N914 and 1N4148 should be ok to use (can try others too, if you don't have these)

<b>Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site:</b>  <b>http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc</b>
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 10:35:46 AM by nul-points »

alan

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2008, 05:13:26 PM »
horsepower = watt = energy / second. Tesla is not talking about overunity but about increasing power by decreasing discharge time. When this time decreases and energy stays the same, power increases (P = E / s).

allcanadian

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2008, 08:26:08 PM »
@alan
Quote
horsepower = watt = energy / second. Tesla is not talking about overunity but about increasing power by decreasing discharge time. When this time decreases and energy stays the same, power increases (P = E / s).

Yes the energy is the same, however the properties and qualities of the current discharged in 1/10000th of a second versus 1 second cannot be compared. Nor can the effects produced be compared, a near instantaneous discharge produces electrostatic fields while a slow discharge produces heat. One discharge can utilize electrical inertia to its advantage in an inductance while the other produces heat. When you understand this you will understand that nul-points has just touched the tip of an iceberg and at this rate he may just see the rest of it.

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2008, 08:43:19 PM »
hi alan, thanks for the comment - yes, i think we're all agreed that in Gyula's quote, Tesla is talking about magnification of power by adjusting the period in which a constant amount of energy is discharged

i thought i'd seen a reference to Tesla stating that he could draw energy from a source by means of a capacitance transferring a small amount at a fast rate and that this didn't deplete the source

this is what i was saying sounded like 'free energy' or OU

however, having seen Gyula's quote above,  i have to say either i saw that same quote originally, misunderstood it at the time & then misremebered it later - or i saw an edited quote which had wrongly summarised Tesla's words

whichever of these possibilities is true, it doesn't alter the fact that using a similar technique to Tesla (ie. switching charge from input to output via a capacitor, changing the periiod on the way) there is a definte Charge Anomaly in the experiment:
  total start charge: 2.4 Coulombs
  total end charge: 3.0 Coulombs

the results of this experiment are showing that the charge anomaly is accompanied by an Energy Anomaly:
  the circuit is handling more than 120% of the energy drawn from the input capacitor

this is true, whether or not it matches Tesla's description of his experience


nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2008, 01:10:35 AM »
hi again AC!

thanks for your input here (things have moved on a little since that charge anomaly discussion at the 'Tesla Switch, need help' thread!)

in the power/duration trade-off, i guess we're seeing inertia acts like a 'gate' to the properties of a system:
  - tap the aether slow & light and a little energy is lent & then taken back, just a ripple in equilibrium, soon restored
  - hit the aether hard & fast and all hell breaks loose - inertia doesn't allow it to keep up and it's very fabric tears temporarily - interesting behaviour follows until it all finally snaps back into sync

any thoughts on the 'capacitive/charge inertia' parallel to 'inductive/current inertia' in reply#36 page 1?

allcanadian

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2008, 04:48:14 PM »
@nul-points
Quote
any thoughts on the 'capacitive/charge inertia' parallel to 'inductive/current inertia' in reply#36 page 1?
I could say many things, but not nearly as well as the people I have come to respect in this field.
Henry T Moray had a very interesting though found here----http://www.rexresearch.com/beyond/beyond.htm
Quote
With the use of these oscillators and the oscillating effect of condensers which I have sometimes explained in the following way to those who are not acquainted with the back-rush effect of condensers, and which may serve to make my point now. When an elastic substance is subjected to strain and then set free, one of two things happens. The substance may slowly recover from the strain and gradually attain its natural state, or the elastic recoil may carry it past its position of equilibrium and cause it to execute a series of oscillations. Something of the same sort may also occur when an electrified condenser is discharged. In ordinary language there may be a continous flow of electricity in one direction until the discharge is completed, or if proper use of the condensers are made an oscillating discharge may occur. That is, the first flow may be succeeded by a back-rush, as if the first discharge had over run itself and something like a recoil set in. The condensers thus become more or less charged again in the opposite sense, and a second discharge occurs accompanied by a second back-rush, the oscillations going on until the energy is either radiated or used up in the heating of the conductors.

I think it is easier to see things as being mechanical in nature thus any motion must contain energy as momentum or inertia---but this inertia can only be utilized through a change in acceleration, prefferably in a load.


NerzhDishual

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2008, 12:08:53 AM »

Hi guys,

I'm still here (from time to time).
Thanks to Sandy for his explanations about his coil(s).

I have just ordered six  5_Volts/1_Farad small caps
(7,10 Euros each) and other stuff.  These FE experiments are not really 'free'... :-\

As soon as I receive my things and if my neuron is working, I test Sandy's CCT.
(CCT= CirCuiT). :P

>>>>> Have you checked this .doc file? It is from a German guy.
I do not remember where this file comes from.  It must be from overunity.com... :)

http://freenrg.info/Condos/The_Condenser_Problem.doc
(10 pages - pages 7-10 are the most important).

Best

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2008, 09:24:26 AM »
hi allcanadian and NerzhDishual

@AC
very interesting to read in more detail about Moray's work - containing first-hand accounts too. strangely, i'd never seen any of his writings or such detail of his devices before; i guess originally i saw a collection of similar sites with what looked like re-hashed newspaper articles and thought there was nothing more to be found, so i didn't follow it up - shame on me!

reading these accounts makes me wonder if all our talk of 'closing the loop' might be misleading us in our attempts to get self-sustaining operation in our various devices - i'm wondering if the 'loop' we should be closing should rather be a 'feedback' loop to sustain oscillation of energy between the 'aether'/vacuum medium and our own circuits

this approach would mean that we don't need to achieve large COP values >>1 in order to loop back, say, 1 unit of power to sustain our circuit and provide X units of power to our load

instead the initial COP would only need to be just slightly greater than 1 and the whole system would oscillate and start to handle greater amounts of energy - of course, this would also mean that we would need to provide some self-limiting capability at a defined power level of operation to prevent 'runaway'


@ND
yes, the cost of those 1F, 5V caps is a concern to me (i recently bought 3) - i guess i was too late in my email to suggest that you could probably use your 0.1F 'condos' instead?

it seems to me from your  <b>http://freenrg.info</b>  website that you have managed to achieve a great many things for a man with only one neuron :)

that Condenser .doc file is very interesting - it supports what we have both found about the charge anomaly when discharging one cap into another & using also about using inductance to achieve 'lossless' transfer (although i seem to remember it also says that by using large value caps you may not need inductance)

it questions where the extra charge could have been sourced, but unfortunately doesn't go on to look at the implications of the anomaly

allcanadian's quote from the Moray account talks of the 'backrush' oscillation of energy when discharging a cap and i'm wondering if what we've been able to achieve is a very slow oscillatory exchange of energy with the 'aether' (substitute name of favourite medium!), because of the very large values (hence large inertia) of our caps and what we're actually doing, at some point then, is  'decoupling' our output reservoir of energy obtained in the oscillation in such a way that it is then unable to flow back into the aether to restore equilibrium - we're stopping the energy 'pendulum', as it were, when it's over on our side of the balance position

as Aspden said, when describing the Adam's motor, we're 'taking out a loan from the universe's energy bank and refusing to pay it back!'

looking forward to seeing how your experiment goes!
<b>Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc</b>

allcanadian

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2008, 04:20:17 PM »
@nul-points
Quote
instead the initial COP would only need to be just slightly greater than 1 and the whole system would oscillate and start to handle greater amounts of energy - of course, this would also mean that we would need to provide some self-limiting capability at a defined power level of operation to prevent 'runaway'
Now your on the right track ;) each cycle provides a small input therefore by increasing the frequency of the cycles more energy is moved over a given time(watts), this also decreases the losses in the system. OU was never about massive COP's, it's about a circle, input becomes output---output is the next input. Have you noticed that all our conventional systems have the load terminating on the source, in which case what we consider a load has no choice but to discharge the source.
What if we did something like in the picture posted below?

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2008, 08:32:22 PM »
@allcanadian
<b><i>>  Have you noticed that all our conventional systems have the load terminating on the source, in which case what we consider a load has no choice but to discharge the source.</i></b>

i'd never noticed before i got into FE & started studying people like Bearden - but, as you can see from the schematic, i sometimes manage to stay awake in class ;)

so - er, that would be just the arrow symbol   <==   to go, then? 

NerzhDishual

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2008, 11:46:36 PM »

@Nul-Points

@tak22 & NerzhDishual
more detail on inductor, as promised:-

- 0.45mm diam................................
- wound in two sections, one each on two tubular ferrites:
  a)3cm long x 1.8cm o/diam., 0.7cm i/diam. approx
  b)2.2cm long x 3.2cm o/diam., 2cm i/diam. approx
...................................................

This is very accurate and clear....Thanks for you patience.

But, where the heck could I find these 'huge' tubular ferrites?
In England, I guess. I have never seen these kind of things in any of my French
catalogs, nor I also could find any Germanium diodes  that seem 'usual' in England.. :-\
BTW: could we also find Tunnel (Esaki) diodes In England  ???
And old friend of mine is craving about these 'late things'. I'm not kidding.
---------------------------------------------------------------
@AllCanadian

...............................................
Have you noticed that all our conventional systems have the load terminating on the
source, in which case what we consider a load has no choice but to discharge the
source.
..............................................................

I was vaguely aware of something wrong about source vs load and 'electrons' that
should not be depleted/consumed after having done some usefull work. Is the stream
of water wasted/exhausted with/in/by a watermill?

So, thanks for your very enlighting accurate and concise statement.

Best

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2008, 01:11:50 AM »
hey NerzhDishual

i get those ferrites from Maplin - consumer/hobbyist electronics supplies - about 50(?) stores around the UK

is there nothing like this in France?  (Tandy/Archer/RadioShack) how are you expected to spend your Euros??!?

of course, it is easy for us to buy huge ferrites & Germanium diodes in England because we still use steam valves in our wireless sets here  ;)

but you have beaten us with the challenge of finding Tunnel diodes - for these i think you would need to order from professional component suppliers - possibly RS (formerly RadioSpares), Farnell, etc

what size ferrites do you have? (i'm not trying to start a macho, 'size-matters', thing here!) maybe the same length (or resistance) of similar wire wound as a single coil on an 8mm diam. rod ferrite would be ok to start experimenting?

otherwise, if you really want to have some fat ugly ferrites to make your friends jealous, i could send you a 'Red Cross' parcel with a selection of ferrites & some germanium diodes to an address of your choosing (Bureau de Poste?)

i hope you saw the info where i said that Silicon diodes should be fine?


NerzhDishual

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2008, 11:42:43 PM »
Hi Hello Nul-Points,

I do like English technology (especially cars). No kidding!
You, English people, definitely do (did?) not build things the way others country do...
Do you remember the Seagull ourboard motor? A masterpiece of simplicity and robustness.

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Seagull_Outboard_Motor.gif)

When I was in my 30th I had a blue TR3-TRIUMPH with an amazing 'Overdrive':
For example:

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Triumph-TR3.jpg) 


A friend of mine had an Austin Frog Eyes: For example:
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Austin_Frog_Eyes.jpg)

And my brother had an (almost dead) TR6-TRIUMPH. For example:

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/TR6-Trihump.jpg)

-------------------------------------------------------

But this is completely off topic. Is it not? ;D
About Tunnel diodes: please, lets drop them... It is not the point.

About the others parts:
Yes, I noticed that you already told me that the silicium diodes were OK. :P
I just wanted to play with these germanim gizmo's.

There is no more such companies in France like Tandy and RadioShack.
They disappeared a lot of time ago.
Archer? It sold arrows bows and quivers?
 
I can only find very small tubular ferrites. So small I dare not to give you more precisions.

About you 'Emergency Kit': I'm game. You will be my supplier.
But, could we discuss 'business' in a private email as I want to pay you
for these stuffs?  No kidding.

Best