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Author Topic: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'  (Read 144085 times)

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2008, 02:13:12 AM »
hi Gyula

thanks for the feedback

interested to hear that you've experienced the same effect in a different situation

i note that the effect seen here is a higher percentage of the previous voltage before discharge than the re-charge you experienced - so i'm going to take a wild guess that you weren't generating the volts on those caps by charge-switching, right?

Aspden mentions research he knows where caps have shown re-charge immediately after sharp discharge - the caps were concentric tubes filled with electrolyte

he predicts that concentric caps will show the best input by aether energy (this is the reason i chose tubular electrolytics for these experiments - standard tubular electrolytics have a rolled 'spiral' construction which is close to concentric tubes)

i've also placed small Neo mags on the tubular electrolytics, with the mag field axis in line with the cap tube axis, to create a mag field at right-angles to the elec charge across the cap 'plates'

i haven't checked this for effect on current test output yet - but i did see a visible increase in switched-charge waveform pk-pk once when placing a strong Neo on top of a 100uF Tantalum electrolytic i was using as the switched cap

the re-charging of the caps isn't a problem for me because they show this effect after discharge - and that is after the end of my experiment - i just need to make sure that i keep the output cap shorted until the moment i start the next test!

interesting stuff, eh?

regards
sandy

gyulasun

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2008, 12:35:20 PM »

interested to hear that you've experienced the same effect in a different situation

i note that the effect seen here is a higher percentage of the previous voltage before discharge than the re-charge you experienced - so i'm going to take a wild guess that you weren't generating the volts on those caps by charge-switching, right?


Hi Sandy,

Right. The caps I discharged was included in television receivers power supply functioning as puffer capacitors on the mains primary side.

I think this phenomena in the capacitors is kind of electret effect in a small percentage when materials of high dielectric constans are exposed to strong electric fields and their molecules/atomic structures retain charge or dipole polarization for a certain periode of time.

There are some good links on making "durable" electrets that are said to retain even some hundred voltage difference for years,  this is another topic to explore and I have on my to-do lists...  See these:

http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/eguchi.htm
http://only1egg-productions.org/AltSci/ElectrostaticMotors/Electrets/Electret.html  and also a practical approach is here:  http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/batteries/electret/electret.htm

Sorry for this off topic in your thread but it is indeed interesting stuff!

Later I would like to hear a sentence from you on the effect of the magnets placed near the capacitor(s) on the output yield if you feel like sharing it. ;)

Thanks,  Gyula


hartiberlin

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2008, 02:30:47 PM »
Hi nul-points,
did you include in your calculation the input power into
your Schmitt trigger IC ?

These ICs can input power via the capacitive gate electrodes
into the circuit.

So it might just be, that you pump
energy via the gate capacitance into the circuit.

I had simular effects in earlier test circuits..
but the "OU power" came mostly from
gate capacitance input from the switching driver..

Please measure this again and let us know
what your IC driver circuit uses as power input..

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

gyulasun

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2008, 05:21:52 PM »
Hi Stefan,

As far as I can see from his schematics http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4419.0;attach=23544  if he uses this shematics, the Schmitt trigger IC's input power is also taken from capacitor C1 which is the MAIN power supply for his total circuit, right?

Gyula

hartiberlin

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2008, 07:34:16 PM »
So then ,
is this already a selfrunning circuit ?
Once charged up and then permanently running ?

Please answer.
Many thanks.

gyulasun

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2008, 12:09:18 AM »
Stefan,

No it is not connected as a selfrunning circuit, Sandy clearly states a COP of about 1.2 in his first and later posts but the schematics disclosed is not looped back.

He first charges up the input cap to 8V from an outside source and let it discharge by the total circuit to 7V for taking the measurements and then he switches off the circuit.

Please read this thread again, not so long, I understand there are other exciting topics going on but take your time also here to be fully in the picture.

rgds,  Gyula

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2008, 12:37:22 AM »
@all
apologies for the delay in replying, i am on holiday, away from home  at the moment - so, tourist by day & experimentor by night  ...hmmm, sounds a bit like 'Dr Jeckyl & Mr Hyde' :)

@Gyula
good observations about electrets! Thanks for the links (i've often wondered about the possibility of 'home-brewing' electrets)

...and not off-topic at all...

a little while back i was thinking about the different behaviour of inductance & capacitance and wondering how the behaviour of each could possibly be contributing to the charge/energy anomalies which are happening in these experiments

at first i thought that an inductance was special and different from a capacitor because it is possible to have 'permanent solenoid/inductance' (ie. a permanent magnet) and there didn't seem to be an equivalent for the capacitor - but then i realised that there is a similar component which acts like a 'permanent capacitor' - an electret!

i believe that, although the inductor and capacitor operate with different fields, they have similar sorts of mechanisms which operate in their total behaviour:

 eg. if you try to stop the current in an inductor, the aether automatically tries to adjust the voltage so the same current continues - <b><i>and my idea is now that if you try to discharge a capacitor then the aether automatically tries to adjust the charge so that the same voltage continues!</i></b>

so we already understand that there is a  'current inertia' with an energised inductor but possibly also we are seeing in this experiment evidence of a 'charge inertia' with an energised capacitor

it would be fascinating to experiment with combinations of PMs and electrets swapped into some of our circuits in place of inductors and capacitors and see if we start getting 'free energy' directly from their action together

yes, i aim to look in more detail at the difference between caps with and without magnet 'biasing' - i will post any positive or negative results i find (so many things to try, and so few hours between 11:00pm and 8:00am !! :)


@Stefan
thanks for the interest - my results already contain measured power to the switching circuitry

i've had two different types of switching so far: transistor Darlington pairs first, and now MOSFET - the power drawn in both cases has been a few mA (about 1/10th of the power supplied to the whole circut, in these tests)

as Gyula correctly mentions, <b>all</b> the power for the experiment (for both switching and load) is supplied by discharging the input capacitor - there is no external supply or Signal Genrs.

so if there is really more charge gained, or more energy being converted here than is being supplied, then the extra is not being 'stolen' from a different part of the circuit - it has to come from 'outside' the conventional circuit!

no, the circuit is not being self-run, the loop has not yet been closed - at the moment, these experiments are just looking at anomalies in charge & energy conservation in capacitor charge switching and trying to learn why they produce results which  indicate OU behaviour

hopefully the things we learn from making variations in these experiments will show us how to go forward and make the best use of the key principles working here and apply them in real-world applications like OU Power Supply devices, etc

one or two members have shown interest in trying to replicate these effects - and in fact, NerzhDishual has already seen a similar charge anomaly just discharging cap-to-cap without switching

i'm hoping i can support these replication attempts with further detail from my setup, if required

regards
sandy

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 04:55:03 AM »
isn't Synchronicity a wonderful thing?

i'd just read a message from NerzhDisual where he mentioned about the need for taking a break occasionally from things like computers - and yes ...even overunity.com (sorry, Stefan!) :)

and here i am taking a break to go on vacation (ok, so i cheated & brought my PC, but i had to leave the experiment hardware behind, didn't i?)

so, now i have more time to read than i usually give myself

and, what do i choose to read? well, papers relating to free energy, of course

(you think just because i'm on holiday i'm going to relax? get real!)

so here i am, 'randomly' choosing a paper by Aspden where he reviews the known features of Tesla's electric car and suggests that the 'mysterious' power source may have been an over-unity system similar to something Aspden had outlined in an earlier patent or paper

and as i read the following quotes, i thought to myself: <b><i>"he's not just describing a possible power source for Tesla's car - he's also describing this experiment i've been doing, down to actual observed behaviour!"</i></b>

the following are quotes from Aspden's writings about Tesla's Pierce-Arrow Car;
my comments about the switched cap experiment are shown in { } braces:-


"...there must be a retardation effect in setting up the aether spin within the capacitor (because the induction of the spin is not spontaneous in response to the setting up of the radial electric field...but involves delay and this precludes operation at 100kHz)..."
 
<b><i>{switched cap experiment: cycle = 0.5 to 1kHz; test duration = 45-100s}</i></b>
 

"...operation at much lower frequency means the need for much higher capacitance to achieve the required power output...whereas capacitance of the order of a nanofarad was what i had in mind with 100kHz operation, it seems that i now must think in terms of hundreds of microfarads..."
 
<b><i>{experiment: switched cap. 2x1000uF in series = 500uF}</i></b>
 
 
"...the spin condition [implies] import of kinetic energy from the aether to augment the electric energy priming the capacitor, with that kinetic energy being non-recoverable by the aether external to the capacitor during electric discharge and so being shed by augmenting the output voltage to deliver more energy than was supplied as input..."
 
<b><i>{experiment: output energy/input energy = 1.1}</i></b>
 
 
"...there is much to be gained by pulsing the capacitor with unidirectional current rather than the normal sinusoidal current we associate with a.c. operation. this would keep the aether spin ongoing in the same direction but oscillating about a mean level..."
 
<b><i>{experiment: DC charge pulse-switched to 500uF cap}</i></b>
 
 
"...concerning how a capacitor can deliver more output energy on discharge than during the charging stage, given the inherent power source ... whereas charge input occurs in the normal way, it is desirable for the input voltage to be switched off before discharge begins and also desirable to force the current out in a controlled manner during discharge. Excess energy delivery can only be by virtue of an excess voltage in the output phase..."
 
<b><i>{experiment: charge switched-in to cap for 1 time unit; off for 9 units}</i></b>
 
 
"...maybe [Tesla's capacitors] incorporated a special kind of dielectric and here, i recall reading somewhere in connection with more recent over-unity energy claims, about experiments using barium titanate as dielectric, it having a very high dielectric constant..."
 
<b><i>{experiment: 500u cap dielectric is likely 800-1000 -due to extremely thin, electrochem. etched, foil}</i></b>
 
 
"...as to the stress now placed on d.c. operation i can further add that, after publishing my first proposals concerning a concentric capacitor having potential for anomalous energy effects...an engineer experienced in d.c. power supply via co-axial cables, as used by underground railways, [reported] that he had observed that in servicing such power lines it was not sufficient merely to short-circuit the cable to discharge it once power had been switched off. experience had shown that the cable could surprise one by recovering its voltage and it took quite a while for the energy stored in the cable capacitance to discharge fully, far longer than one might expect..."
 
<b><i>{experiment: the caps show auto recharge after discharge}</i></b>
 
 
i believe that the processes and behaviour mentioned in these quotes strongly suggest that the switched capacitor experiment described in this thread has achieved a small-scale verification of Mr Aspden's predictions for transferring excess energy from the Quantum Vacuum medium (previously known as the 'Aether') into a conventional load
 
<b><i>...didn't someone once say "if it walks like a duck ...and it talks like a duck - then it probably IS a duck!"?</i></b>

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2008, 12:39:32 PM »
@all
i've moved this thread away from 'Super Capacitors' because it appears that the charge/energy anomalies i'm seeing in these experiments are not related to either the input or output capacitors (which are SuperCap stacks) - i believe the OU effect is taking place in the switching cap (which is not a SuperCap) moving charge from the input cap to the output

i realise that the 'Tesla Switch' referred to in this thread's title is a modern circuit and not in itself strictly a Tesla technology - BUT - i have read in some of Tesla's writings that he had discovered a way to 'siphon' charge from a generator using frequent, small amounts of charge via a capacitor in such a way that he could extract as much energy as he liked and it wouldn't affect the source

that sounds to me suspiciously like a description of 'free energy' - and his general approach, described above, is exactly what is going on in these experiments

so for these reasons i believe that the 'Tesla Technology' forum is a better location for this thread


i've now updated the 'Doc Ringwood' site to summarise various observations about the anomalies and also my conclusions about the OU nature of the experiments:

<b>Doc Ringwood's 'Free Energy' website  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc </b>

alan

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2008, 02:50:38 PM »
If there really is something, then this experiment has the potential to proof it.
good luck!

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2008, 03:17:48 PM »
@alan
sorry, i must have started my update post here before your reply, so i didn't see it until editing my typos!
  thanks - yes, i'm hoping there will be some replication tests soon to confirm one way or the other


@All
interesting update on the cap self-recharge effect....

i just checked the circuit after being on vacation for 7 days

after the last test run (Sat 17 May) i discharged the output cap to 0V tho' Rload and then shorted the cap for a few seconds and when i left, after about an hour, it's voltage had risen from 0V to 0.29V

the circuit has been disconnected from the input cap and any test-gear for 7 days - but on checking the output cap this morning, the voltage is at 0.64V

(if this isn't evidence of 'capacitive inertia' i want to know what is!)

i presume that it actually peaked higher than this last weekend and then in the remaining days it has fallen to 0.64 with the natural low-leakage of the SuperCaps

this self-recharge is around 25% of the original voltage!

so, i've already had OU from the output - leave it awhile and it wants to give me some more!

« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 04:00:24 PM by nul-points »

gyulasun

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2008, 06:51:23 PM »

- i have read in some of Tesla's writings that he had discovered a way to 'siphon' charge from a generator using frequent, small amounts of charge via a capacitor in such a way that he could extract as much energy as he liked and it wouldn't affect the source

that sounds to me suspiciously like a description of 'free energy' - and his general approach, described above, is exactly what is going on in these experiments


Hi Sandy,

I would like to learn about those Tesla writings you read,  in fact I remember a conversation where Tesla was questioned on his capacitive discharging experiments and in fact questioned on doing the first wireless transmissions (earlier than Marconi,)  but in those capacitor discharge tests the bottom line is that the (discharge) time involved is what counts. 
You can charge up a cap to many thousands of volts and then the available energy from that cap depends only on how quickly or slowly you discharge it.  This is what I remember and this in itself does not sound free energy because you fed in that particular amount of energy from a generator (or whatever source) in advance during a certain time periode and if you use up this same amount  of energy in much shorter time then you seem to "consume more" but in fact you do not...
A similar example is a battery, say a capacity of 50Ah battery., normally it can provide 1A current for 50 hours but it certainly can provide 25A for 2 hours (this latter is an abuse for such battery I know) so I think this is how the capacitor discharge above is understood...


interesting update on the cap self-recharge effect....

i just checked the circuit after being on vacation for 7 days

after the last test run (Sat 17 May) i discharged the output cap to 0V tho' Rload and then shorted the cap for a few seconds and when i left, after about an hour, it's voltage had risen from 0V to 0.29V

the circuit has been disconnected from the input cap and any test-gear for 7 days - but on checking the output cap this morning, the voltage is at 0.64V

(if this isn't evidence of 'capacitive inertia' i want to know what is!)

i presume that it actually peaked higher than this last weekend and then in the remaining days it has fallen to 0.64 with the natural low-leakage of the SuperCaps

this self-recharge is around 25% of the original voltage!

so, i've already had OU from the output - leave it awhile and it wants to give me some more!

Yes,  as I mentioned, the atoms/molecules of the dielectric material inside the capacitor try to arrange back to their 'position' where they were all forced to 'setup' by the earlier electric field stress of the 2.7V (or whatever) value. This is what I think... 
By the way, my elder co-workers used to mention that certain high voltage transmitter type capacitors were stored with short-circuited connections when not in use because charge tended to accumulate in them beyond 'nasty' values and gave shockes when accidentaly the unshorted connections were touched.  (And charge in them did not come about due to the closeness of RF or other transmitter near field effects for sure but the explanation pondered on was the cap 'remembered' the manufacturer's high voltage tests... )
-------------------------------

You may have thought on making the L inductance resonant with C2 (500uF) at the switching frequency?  What if you match them to be at series resonant?  then you may benefit from the resonant voltage up transformation?  would be an interesting test...   

Thanks,  Gyula

argona369

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2008, 08:36:05 PM »
Hi Gyulasan.

>By the way, my elder co-workers used to mention that certain high voltage transmitter >type capacitors were stored with short-circuited connections when not in use because >charge tended to accumulate in them beyond 'nasty' values


I can also add to strange capacitor effects.
I built 4 small leyden jars a while ago (1.5? x 4? glass spice jars).
Aluminum sticky tape inside and outside, shredded aluminum foil stuffed inside,
Electrical tape wrapped around outside, and then multi dipped in wax/hot glue
To seal the whole thing.
(25% melted hot glue (through glue gun) mixed
Into melted paraffin wax and stirred together, makes a great non-brittle dielectric sealant)

They worked very well as leyden jars. (> 125,000 volts)
I had put them (non-shorted) into my parts box and left them for several months.
When I went to use them again I was having problems, they would not hold a charge.
I removed the outer tape/wax layers and ran them (to my 30 cm wimshurst) to see what was happening to the jars.
They were now all arcing through the glass dielectric at low voltage!
The dielectric had broken down just from being in storage, there was no charge noticed
On them when taken out of storage btw.

Cliff,

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2008, 12:41:44 AM »
@Gyula
you've raised 3 important observations/questions! Thank you for mentioning these

<b><i> > I remember a conversation where Tesla was questioned on his capacitive discharging experiments ... in those capacitor discharge tests the bottom line is that the (discharge) time involved is what counts...  this in itself does not sound free energy because you fed in that particular amount of energy from a generator (or whatever source) in advance during a certain time periode and if you use up this same amount  of energy in much shorter time then you seem to "consume more" but in fact you do not...</i></b>

- i'm trying to find again the Tesla reference i read some time ago - but it was not about his large-scale capacitor discharges

if i remember correctly, he was definitely saying that he could 'collect' (which i describe as 'siphoning') small and frequent amounts of charge from a generator, or other source, by means of a capacitor, i believe, and that he could extract as much power as he liked without depleting the source

it was this last statement that i was saying sounded like 'free energy'


<b><i> > Yes,  as I mentioned, the atoms/molecules of the dielectric material inside the capacitor try to arrange back to their 'position' where they were all forced to 'setup' by the earlier electric field stress of the 2.7V (or whatever) value. This is what I think...</i></b>

i agree that there is a long history of evidence of self-recharge of capacitors and that the dielectric must be involved - because the energy in a charged capacitor is understood to be actually stored in the dielectric, not the cap plates - but i am thinking that this description is still an effect, not a cause - the recharge seen this last week could provide 10mW of power for 7 seconds

firstly, i'm not sure that a purely 'electret' effect could provide this sort of power when the cap was only charged to 2.7V to begin with - i understand that electrets usually need a high voltage stress as part of their creation

secondly, when creating an electret, the stress voltage has to be maintained continously whilst the polarity alignment becomes 'fixed' - but in these cap recharges the voltage has been completely discharged first and then also shorted before the voltage builds up again

to 'force' the atoms/molecules in the dielectric to return to a previous 'setup' we would need to perform some electrical work on them - the only work on a capacitor which conventional physics recognises is to apply a voltage across the plates

where is the power coming from to do this work?  i say it is not coming from anwhere conventional!!

well, i think we can both agree that, whatever the cause of the recharge, 'electret' or 'aether spin', it is completely 'free energy' because after the full amount (1219mWs in this experiment) of conventional stored energy has been discharged thro' Rload then another 70mWs has become available from the self-recharge - nearly 6% extra energy!

i think a lot of people (me included) would be happy to get a COP of 1.06 from a simple capacitor! :)


<b><i> > You may have thought on making the L inductance resonant with C2 (500uF) at the switching frequency?</i></b>

yes, this is a very good question - is it possible to increase the switched charge voltage thro' resonance (by 'tuning' the peak voltage to occur at the moment of switching)?

i haven't tried matching L & switched C for resonance - i'd considered adjusting the cycle period above & below the existing rate to see if the COP increases either way - but it would be an excellent test to try resonance directly

i hope that one of us gets to try this resonance test soon


@argona
<b><i> > The dielectric had broken down just from being in storage</i></b>

do you have any theories as to how the dielectric (just glass?) degraded to that extent?


<b><i> > there was no charge noticed on them when taken out of storage btw.</i></b>

i guess not, if the dielectric had failed!  ;)

argona369

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2008, 12:58:35 AM »
>i guess not, if the dielectric had failed!

Lol.
Low voltage was maybe (guess) 1,000 volts.
(Arc discharges seen though glass dielectric)
There might have been some voltage on the jars but I never noticed it.
(before and after storage).

Disassembled to look for bubbles or cracks and there was none.

>do you have any theories as to how the dielectric (just glass?) degraded to that extent?

None whatsoever, and it was just plain glass jars.

I also noticed that when my wimshurst (?thumper?) was first run,
It produced 10x more ozone at first which diminished after say 5 hours
of operation (motor driven).
I always felt that at first running it had pulled electrons out of the plexi disks,
And ?ran out? or could not pull anymore latter on (depleted something).

Cliff,