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Author Topic: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'  (Read 144084 times)

nul-points

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OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'
« on: April 05, 2008, 05:49:23 AM »
[EDIT - update]
well, my lack of posting here hasn't been due to lack of developments!!

i replaced the transistor switch circuitry with MOSFETs and reduced a lot of the 'lumped' losses - it became clear that the 'Tesla switch' action was severely limited by the I^2*R losses in the circuit inter-connects - not enough Inductance!

i realised that i needed to introduce a load into the energy 'shuttling' path & allow the system to make TWO passes of the energy, not just ONE as i had originally - now we're cooking!!

before the OU COP>1 action was limited to just the 1st pass of energy to the load - but there were 50% losses before the energy even got to the switching cap!

now that i've added the load into both the charging & discharging phases of the output, the OU behaviour has been extended to the whole circuit and i'm getting COP = 1.1 (EnergyOutput-to-EnergyInput) &
 COP =1.2 (UsefulEnergy-to-EnergyInput) and there are still some additional losses taking total Energy-handled further above input

i'm hoping to update these old posts with my recent results, but in the meantime you can check out the results at the website i've created for these experiments:
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

i think the things i've learned about this type of circuit operation also apply to the other threads like 'Tesla Switch', & David Bowling's & Capn_Z_ro's energy-shuttling circuits - energy can be 're-used' whilst being shuttled backwards & forwards, but it must be done between no-loss or low-loss energy-stores like caps (or batteries?) and the energy needed to do the work of STORAGE must also be dissipated thro' a (probably low-impedance) load each pass, before either using or re-shuttling the energy which has just BEEN STORED

the system also has to make use of some operation which doesn't return all the power temporarily injected into the circuit by the vacuum medium ('Aether') - in my case, i guess it's the magnet-biased inductance with air-gap - in these other recent threads it looks like either the motor BEMF or the carbon-brushes/spark-gap action - if the Aether-provided energy can be spent before the Aether expects it back, who's it going to call? the ambient environment gets a visit from 'Uncle Luigi & the boys' and the local temperature drops!

ok, i'm done - checkout the site above for supporting evidence

[EDIT - previous posts outdated by recent developments!]
i recently responded to some developments in the 'Telsa Switch - need help' thread and started discussing energy storage switching with NerzhDishual & allcanadian and we all agreed that in order to minimise power loss when moving the energy around it's necessary to have reactive components in
the energy path... [EDIT]

« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 01:28:02 AM by nul-points »

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 05:52:19 AM »
[EDIT - see post above for recent developments]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 01:43:23 AM by nul-points »

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 switched cap PS cct
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 05:53:37 AM »
[EDIT - see 1st post above for recent developments]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 01:44:08 AM by nul-points »

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2008, 12:59:41 PM »
[EDIT - see 1st post above for recent developments]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 01:44:41 AM by nul-points »

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2008, 07:59:13 PM »
[EDIT - see 1st post above for recent developments]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 01:45:20 AM by nul-points »

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 11:56:19 AM »
[EDIT - see 1st post above for recent developments]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 01:46:30 AM by nul-points »

NerzhDishual

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 06:45:51 PM »

Hi Nul-Points,

I'm still on line...
Your results sound promissing.

I have printed out your posts and your pictures. I'm just trying to figure out
what it is all about. I'm far from an electronics specialist and I must confess
that I'm lost notably with you acronyms... :P

What do you mean by CCT? CirCuiT, I guess and not "Cortical Collecting Tubule"
or "Canadian College of Teachers".   ;D   (http://www.acronymfinder.com/)

Your (HEF?)4093B IC (Integrated Circuit) is a "Quadruple 2-input NAND Schmitt trigger"?

More to come ASP.

Best


Feynman

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 10:32:56 PM »
@nul-points

You have some serious math skills!  This will take some time to understand.

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 ?? switched cap PS cct
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 11:27:54 PM »
thanks for the encouragement, guys

sorry about the acronyms - i'm a software engineer like you ND (not yet retired tho') but i trained in Elec Eng many decades ago so i got used to writing cct for 'circuit'

yes, 4093 is quad Schmidt NAND, two gates used as astable oscillator with two outputs, regular & inverted - one switches 1st Darlington pair Trs to charge 4u7 switching cap from input cap (or battery), then second switches 2nd Darlington pair Trs to discharge 4u7 cap into load

i think my maths has improved as i've got older, Feynman - which just shows how bad it must have been when i was a student!

ok, the bad news is that my 15R series measurement resistor definitely limits the charging of the switched cap in the cct - so, although the scoped input appeared to confirm the meter reading,  the output would definitely not still have been providing the power previously measured

i've rerun the tests using just the input 0.25F cap stack starting at 8V, stopping at 7V - this supplies a total of 1.875 Joules (= 1875mWseconds)

so i divide that by the time it takes to discharge from 8 to 7V and that gives me the average Pin in mW for each test

i've measured the load resistance - in these latest tests it's 468R - and i've smoothed the output with a 1000uF cap so i can scope the load volts and then calc the load mA & mW

the reactance-free circuit handled 18.9mW av. & the input was 34.2 av. so the actual COP was 0.55 - close to the predicted 50% loss

so i repeated the test with a coil of copper wire, as supplied on its reel, as an inductor feeding the 4u7 cap, and this enabled the circuit to retain about 30% more energy - a COP of 0.82

it seemed to me that the output smoothing cap was producing a Vout value lower than the area under the graph would - i might try comparing them sometime - it's easier & much faster.to read the smoothed value direct with a meter, but if its altering the cct efficiency it would be better to go back to the Excel method

i guess the next step for the cct is to see if the additional inductance(s) need to be tuned to the value of switching cap used & also see if the losses can be reduced - some more thinking to do there

@ND
i tried that idea you mentioned in Tesla Switch thread, of charging 2nd cap thro a dc motor in series:
 -  if i connected input cap stack at 8V thro a CD load-tray motor direct to empty 2nd cap stack & discharged input to 7V then the motor ran and also the 2nd cap charged to 1V - charge was conserved but we get the motor running too

  - if i used my switching cct, same start volts on caps, then motor runs but this time 2nd cap charges to 1.2V - charge conservation has been violated, as you and i have found before, and we still get to power the motor too!

i'll get back here when i have some new results - or to follow up any comments or questions
sandy
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 02:29:55 AM by nul-points »

nul-points

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Re: OU / COP >1 switched cap PS cct
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 09:24:13 AM »
 i was abit over optimistic in thinking that i could account for all relevant losses just by taking an offload power reading - the onload currents cause significant volts drops within the circuit

the true COP value of the circuit should be greatly improved by including the onload losses in the charging branch, the load branch, the switch drive resistors and the switch circuit itself

i've run a new test, again using a charged cap stack as supply, and taking the extra readings and doing the calcs, i've measured 53mW supplied as input, 30mW drawn by load, and a total of 36mW 'losses' (losses only in the sense that they are not output to the load - they represent useful power in making the circuit work!)

<b>COP = (30 + 36)/53 = 1.24</b>

so, the full picture now shows that the switch-charged capacitor does indeed handle more power than is supplied!

could this be related to the fact that charge is not conserved in this type of circut, as i reported in the Tesla Switch thread?

i used the front-end of this circuit to discharge one cap into a 2nd cap: initial charge 2 Coulombs; final charge approx 2.9 Coulombs - <b>an  increase in charge of over 1.4</b> and a clear violation of Conservation of Charge<b>(checkout Wikipedia for the implications of breaking this 'law')</b>

considered comments - and verifications!! - welcome
sandy

(measurements & calcs shown below...)


0.25F supply cap;
discharged from 9V to 8V
time taken = 40.04s
9V 10.125Joules;
8V 8.0J

<b>Input supplied:</b>
Ein 2.125J  = 2125mWs over 40.04s
Pin 53.07mW av.
Vin 8.5V av.
Iin 6.24mA av.

<b>Output to load:</b>
Vout 3.77V av.
Iout 8.06mA av.
Pout 30.37mW av.

<b>Losses:</b>
  Switch cct
Vin 8.5V av.
Is 0.35mA av.
Ps 3mW av.

  Switch drive
duty = 1/9 (0.1 charge; 0.9 load)

  12k R drive-charge
Vin 8.5V av.
Irc 0.71mA x 0.1 av.
Prc 0.64mW av

  12k R drive-load
Vrl 4.82V av.
Irl 0.40mA x 0.9 av.
Prl 1.74mW av.

  charge-branch
Iin (6.24mA - (0.35+0.007)) = 5.88 mA av.
Vdrop 8.5-4.82 = 3.68V av.
Ploss 21.64mW av.

  load-branch
Vdrop 4.82-3.77 = 1.05V av.
Iout 8.06mA av.
Ploss 8.46mW av.

<b>Totals:</b>
Power in 53.1mW av.
Load power out 30.4mW av.
Losses 21.6 + 8.5 + 2.4 + 3 = 35.5mW av.

COP = (power handled/power supplied)
   = 65.9/53.1 = 1.24
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 10:00:15 AM by nul-points »

Feynman

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Re: OU / COP >1 switched cap PS cct
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 10:11:43 PM »
Wow, again , great calculations my friend.


I will try to understand this and maybe comment... perhaps someone understands this better at the moment?

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 08:50:53 AM »
thanks Feynman, the calcs are mostly Ohms Law & V * I power - i'm just trying to compare the Energy in against the Energy out in my switched-cap Power Supply test circuit and hopefully be as thorough as possible in covering the main gains and losses

the operation of the circuit itself is pretty simple - a small amount of charge is switched from an input source (eg battery, wall-wart or charged super-cap) and used to rapidly charge a small cap

this charge is then switched to an output load as required - lamp, battery, motor - whatever (i'm just using a resistor in these tests here, to make measurement easier, but i've also run the usual LEDs & motors as output loads, too)

the whole process is repeated at some frequency (in my test circuit here it cycles at a few hundred Hz)

the way the circuit switches charge from input to output makes it operate like one branch of a 'Tesla Switch'

i've also had the circuit operating with a small DC motor connected between the input source and the switched capacitor so the motor was running from the charge that was being switched into the cap and the circuit was still providing output to the load

i think i saw in a thread here in Overunity that someone said something like "it would be cool if we could just produce a self-powered OU equivalent of a wall-wart / power-brick PSU"

although the values for this circut are now showing OU operation it's a long way from being self-powered at the moment - but it'll be interesting to see how much it can be improved and whether it's possible to increase output efficiency & reduce losses enough to try for a self-runner

more experiments to follow, watch this space...

Koen1

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 02:58:14 PM »
Wow, I hadn't visited this thread for a while...

did you actually manage to get a Tesla/Brand/Bedini switch circuit "battery back-popper"
to work with only capacitors??  :o

Yep, that's what I seem to be reading here... wowsers!

Great stuff man! :D

I've been waiting for people to finally do away with the batteries in such types of systems,
and this may finally be it! ;D
Keep it up!
The worlds very first gridless and batteryless power socket is coming up, I can feel it! :) ;D

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2008, 01:22:09 AM »
thanks Koen, i think it's early days yet before we see some cool stuff like that, but there's a lot of good work being done here at OverUnity, pushing back the frontiers

at the moment, the circuit is switching charge like the Tesla Switch but it's unidirectional - it's transferring charge from an input supply (of whatever kind) to the output load - which could be another capacitor, if required - but the charge doesn't get reflected back to the input again

i just made the circuit to test the relative energy transfer of capacitors when charging & discharging - it was only after i started running some tests, & looking for background info on the web, that i discovered i had effectively made a switched-mode power supply

i don't know if it will be possible to improve the efficiency to the point where the loop can be closed to self-sustain - or even if the aether/zpe/vacuum-medium will allow such a paradox

it may be that we'll find that we always need to apply some power ourselves in order to 'maintain' the flow of 'free energy' - in other words we might always have to pay a little in order to get a lot of free stuff back

the values i'm getting for this circuit suggest that although it appears to be truly OU (considering total energy expended for energy input) the efficiency ratio of the 'intended output' to the input is currently in the 0.6-0.8 region

of course, if you want to warm your house as well as power the load then you'll get full benefit of its COP > 1 operation!  :)

there's been an unexpected development today - i wanted to get a measured reading for the current in the charging branch, rather than just derive it from the energy difference on the input cap, so i added a 1R resistor in series with the switched cap and the measured value from the scope is so unexpected that i want to try & get an old research friend to review what seems to be happening

i've confirmed the measurement with different value resistors so it's either something weird & interesting - or i've got a conversion factor wrong somewhere

... i realise the odds are against 'weird & interesting'!  ;)

nul-points

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Re: OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like half 'Tesla Switch'
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 02:02:27 AM »
well, the 'weird & interesting' measurement isn't resolved - measuring the input current drawn using a 1R resistor didn't agree (like a factor of around two) with the current drawn using the energy-in from capacitor voltage levels divided by the average volts-in & time - i think the cap volts-energy-in method is the more reliable, so i've gone back to that & stuck with Energy measurements & comparisons

however, the good news is that by adding a series load resistor inline with the output cap i've been able to reclaim the automatic 50% input energy losses into the load, so now the whole circuit is OU - not just the switched cap to output section

i'm hoping to update my earlier posts in this thread with the results, but in the meantime i've created a website with the relevant details about the whole Charge & Energy Conservation violation results:-
  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

@NerzhDishual
using a DC motor between energy stores works but (at least with my motor) an inductance with air-gap seems to give better results - i'm now getting COP =1.2 on whole circuit - ie. (switching + output energy)/energy in
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 02:49:18 AM by nul-points »