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Author Topic: My Bessler Quest  (Read 46010 times)

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2008, 04:41:29 PM »
There are a few things in his MT which are obvious if you compare them to other wheels and his descriptions, but it is the prime mover that you need, and the prime move has something to do with a weight replacing another weight IMO even on the descending side which sounds useless, but if you analyze it you may find something, but I do not know the movement, and I should think that you don?t either...

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2008, 04:41:29 PM »

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2008, 01:40:30 AM »
There are a few things in his MT which are obvious if you compare them to other wheels and his descriptions, but it is the prime mover that you need, and the prime move has something to do with a weight replacing another weight IMO even on the descending side which sounds useless, but if you analyze it you may find something, but I do not know the movement, and I should think that you don?t either...

 >>and I should think that you don?t either...<<

Posted it already. Didn't receive any comments.
Could be computer simluations are more interesting.

May I see this post? I would like to see how to do it.
thanks :)

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2008, 03:32:54 AM »
There are a few things in his MT which are obvious if you compare them to other wheels and his descriptions, but it is the prime mover that you need, and the prime move has something to do with a weight replacing another weight IMO even on the descending side which sounds useless, but if you analyze it you may find something, but I do not know the movement, and I should think that you don?t either...

 >>and I should think that you don?t either...<<

Posted it already. Didn't receive any comments.
Could be computer simluations are more interesting.

May I see this post? I would like to see how to do it.
thanks :)

  Alexioco. May have deleted it. Only plan on demonstrating the basic idea and prove it can work.
 After that, it will be up to people to decide how they think Bessler might have built his wheels.
 
 
 

So how did it work then?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 01:50:07 PM by Alexioco »

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2008, 03:32:54 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2008, 02:58:51 AM »
  Alexioco,
 If this principle is not understood, then the other one probably won't matter much.
Even if this does not work, that it would use less energy to move a weight back to it's starting position would be important.
 Although it seems to be a simple design, no one in here can calculate it's potential to develop spin.
 By this I mean, that gravity will accelerate the wheel at a rate that would be calculated by the net force. Such as, if the wheel weighs 25 pounds and there is 1 pound of net force at 2 feet, what is the potential of that amount of torque to accelerate the wheel ?
 Would it be enough to go from a stand still and be able to maintain spin ? Or as Bessler was known to have done, would the wheel need some momentum that this would increase the potential of ?
 Everyone in here knows that an over balance of this type will develop some spin. And since a fulcrum can be set up above the axle, what is to prevent a weight swinging like a bob on a pendulum from causing a wheel to spin ?
 And as you saw in the picture, the pendulum's bob was outside of the wheel. As such, if it swung down, it would be inside the wheel.
 Of course, using one behavior to compliment another could be to advanced.

So when the weight on the left swings in, it gives enough momentum to get the oposite weight to go right around and make it back to its position in order to sustain motion?

Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2008, 03:21:24 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8uJlHLpBc


@p-motion

Like this ?  I hope you ideas for the pendulum make mine look childish, i am an accomplished wood worker and metal worker. I have worked on many variations of your pendulum idea. I will post some in another thread today. Knowing the secret and waiting makes you a great man with much self control. Your a man a mong mice, when you can grace the world with your  gift we will all be greatful.

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2008, 03:21:24 PM »
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Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2008, 02:50:09 PM »
from p-motion

Even if this does not work, that it would use less energy to move a weight back to it's starting position would be important.
 Although it seems to be a simple design, no one in here can calculate it's potential to develop spin.

I have calculated it, the same way you should, it is a VERY< VERY SIMPLE concept to model in the real world and feel how it react. YOU will be very surprised at what your simple models does. Its easy  to dismiss that and say well if i make it more complicated then it will act differently, (as in your second picture that you show us)

But the first one that we must be smart enough to understand before we try and understand the second one. I believe it acts unlike you expect it to.


A pendulum or lever offset from the axle and meant to swing over the axle to create rotational torque is a very strong force and its very easy to assume that this  force with be stron enought to overcome all other forces. Especially when we CANNOT calculate the forces that are imagined.

Your lever idea shows some merit, but the reason you find trouble getting alot of attention appears from my simple uneducated opinon to be that you need to study the simple motion and understand that before,
1. telling others they can't
2. saying if we do that it will then make sense to us, maybe we do and the time it would take to explain it to you would be to much.



@alex

I am sorry that your post got hijacked by another, it seems to be par for the course when someone wants attention. I would not respond and continue the encouragment of someone inside someone elses post if it wasn't to continue discussion.
If my words become worthless let me know and i will exit.

I will try and quickly make a model of p-motion example that we should al get, i will take a shot at its moment of inertia and then at its area of rest. but he has left out to many variables. I'll explain when i have the pictures.



Offline erickdt

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2008, 03:03:55 PM »
I strongly recommend that these sorts of concepts be modelled and tested with software such as WM2D before they are heralded as the answer for a gravity powered device. It will become quite apparent quite quickly what does and doesn't work.

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2008, 03:03:55 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2008, 03:17:58 PM »
wm2d ;D

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2008, 04:57:09 PM »
from p-motion

Even if this does not work, that it would use less energy to move a weight back to it's starting position would be important.
 Although it seems to be a simple design, no one in here can calculate it's potential to develop spin.

I have calculated it, the same way you should, it is a VERY< VERY SIMPLE concept to model in the real world and feel how it react. YOU will be very surprised at what your simple models does. Its easy  to dismiss that and say well if i make it more complicated then it will act differently, (as in your second picture that you show us)

But the first one that we must be smart enough to understand before we try and understand the second one. I believe it acts unlike you expect it to.


A pendulum or lever offset from the axle and meant to swing over the axle to create rotational torque is a very strong force and its very easy to assume that this  force with be stron enought to overcome all other forces. Especially when we CANNOT calculate the forces that are imagined.

Your lever idea shows some merit, but the reason you find trouble getting alot of attention appears from my simple uneducated opinon to be that you need to study the simple motion and understand that before,
1. telling others they can't
2. saying if we do that it will then make sense to us, maybe we do and the time it would take to explain it to you would be to much.



@alex

I am sorry that your post got hijacked by another, it seems to be par for the course when someone wants attention. I would not respond and continue the encouragment of someone inside someone elses post if it wasn't to continue discussion.
If my words become worthless let me know and i will exit.

I will try and quickly make a model of p-motion example that we should al get, i will take a shot at its moment of inertia and then at its area of rest. but he has left out to many variables. I'll explain when i have the pictures.




Its alright, no problem...
I dont want to say to much yet but the other night I could not sleep beause I think I may have found a workign wheel which could be built in a matter of hours (for me anyway) I will post it when I have built it, just incase it does not work, lol you know hwo it is...
but for now, yeah I think the above ideas are good, I dont quite understand them...

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2008, 04:57:09 PM »
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Offline erickdt

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2008, 05:10:20 PM »
I strongly recommend that these sorts of concepts be modelled and tested with software such as WM2D before they are heralded as the answer for a gravity powered device. It will become quite apparent quite quickly what does and doesn't work.

 @ Eric,
 I think this idea is simple enough that common sense would be sufficient.
After all, the idea of an over balanced wheel (in this caes, an arm) is that it will rotate in the direction of the weight furthest from the center.
 Has this changed ? If not, then am not sure why this would not work.
 Bessler might have done something like this first before going on to build his wheels. If so, then he probably destroyed a lot of his work as he did not value it much. Could be he wanted more of a challenge.

There's a saying that common sense isn't very common. This idea certainly applies to the problem of a gravity powered device. Time and time again devices both real and simulated have performed very differently from how I had imagined and I am a design engineer, someone who theoretically has more than common knowledge of these things. For example: it seems logical to think the the wheel as you've described it will turn towards the side where the weight is the farthest from the axis this however is not the case. In fact, for whatever reason it turns in the other direction...


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2008, 05:45:32 PM »

I dont want to say to much yet but the other night I could not sleep beause I think I may have found a workign wheel

That is how I came up with several of my designs.  ;D

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2008, 05:45:32 PM »
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Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2008, 08:37:09 PM »
@erick

Yes you are correct the wheel will spin to the right with the sketch that P-motion first drew as an example for us. its interesting and has been much fun for me over the past few weeks. The points of rest with levers and "pendulums" are quit interesting. Where you would suspect the weight to rest is not always the case.COG of the object plays a big role.
Also as you clearly already know that by using fulcrum and the axle as leverage points the dynamics become very intersting. It is amusing though to hear others argue against you when
you have actually done the experiment they are demanding you understand so that you can see for yourself what they mean.

erick did you model this or was this behaviour something that worked in WM2d, i have used a physical model, just curious??

Offline erickdt

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2008, 08:47:36 PM »
@erick

Yes you are correct the wheel will spin to the right with the sketch that P-motion first drew as an example for us. its interesting and has been much fun for me over the past few weeks. The points of rest with levers and "pendulums" are quit interesting. Where you would suspect the weight to rest is not always the case.COG of the object plays a big role.
Also as you clearly already know that by using fulcrum and the axle as leverage points the dynamics become very intersting. It is amusing though to hear others argue against you when
you have actually done the experiment they are demanding you understand so that you can see for yourself what they mean.

erick did you model this or was this behaviour something that worked in WM2d, i have used a physical model, just curious??

It was modelled in WM2D.

Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2008, 03:37:58 PM »
from p-motion
"One thing about the design, if PiR^2=X (circumference), then Pi2R^2=2X.
 I think everyone would agree with this. What would not be realized is that the amount of over balance would also be twice as much.
 Still, I think that 5kg's (2.5 per side) might be to lite. If looking at 1/40th the total mass as net force at 60+cm's, I'd probably start with 20kg's and go up. It is one of those things, the further from the center, the less weight that would be needed as net force would be a higher %. Unless of course the % of over balance became less, ie. decreasing the distance from the center compared to the opposing weight.
 Hope I haven't missed anything.  :-)"


I must be stupid, because that sounds like chinese to me, man i wish the US education system was better  ;D


Anyway, i want to do some thing that p-motion does alot.

Thats great but lets talk about me now. BACK to basics. I'm sure noone in this thread is making this mistake but. lets look at a basic issue/fundamental that i think i misunderstood.


picture this

i make a 2 foot long balance beam, out of metal with a 5/16 hole in the middle around which it will rotate.  I take a 700gram lead weight and place it all the way out on one side 12", on the other side i place the same weight 700 gram at 10.75 inches out, roughly 10% closer to the axle. Now i would say that the wheel is currently overweighter to one side.

YES?

if that is the case then where will the side that has the weight overweighted on come to rest at?


The reason i use 10 percent about is because on the 14 foot wheel the wieghts were a full foot closer to the outside as they passed the centerline on each side. I thought. so 10% sounded good to me.


So where does it come to rest ?????   6 oclock, 3 oclock, or  somewhere else.


Sine ? cosine?

Sign and Co-sign.   Is that like a sign that works with a sign? on a red light would red and green be the sign and yellow be the co-sign?



The reason for my asking is because of your design, once i have the answer i'll explain the fundamental flaw of most designers(newbies like me)
 

Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2008, 04:14:21 PM »
p-motion
this is for you.
I still cannot figure out how to get pictures in my post. on the OU site

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47917#47917

 

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