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Author Topic: My Bessler Quest  (Read 40499 times)

Offline Alexioco

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My Bessler Quest
« on: April 02, 2008, 03:16:23 AM »
What I have learnt so far...

MT 9: This is how he attached his weights, but they were not attached as they are in MT 9, they need to be attached some other way

MT 10: It is not complete until changes have been made... Notice that there are more weights...

MT 11: The outer weights may need to be attached to the inner weights (working in pairs)

MT 14: The outside weights pull on the inside weighted bars.
Quote
Ask any of those who have groped inside my Wheel and grasped its axle" - "Rather, it has many compartments, and is pierced all over with various holes.
so weighted bars can slide (two bars = cross bar)

MT 15: This is how the weights are positioned in the wheel, but the movement in order to get them like that is not seen in this alone
Quote
MT15... From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the superior weight.

Maybe the other wheels mentioned above when combined will reveal the prime mover

Notice how all of the wheels work in similar ways, meaning MT 9 is the basis, the weights in MT 9 may need to be disconnected, then doubled like MT 11, except the innerweights need to be like they are in MT 14, then the outer weights can be connected to the inner weighted bars, then the inner bars need to be lengthened and we end up with MT 15, but then the prime mover needs to be completed, once this is done, we have a runner. (MT 15 works the same way as MT 14, except the bars in MT 15 are longer and the outer weights are not connected to eachother)

We have learned how MT 14 works as I said earlier, now notice this, MT 14 only has half of the weights connected to the inner bars (There is half the amount of weighted bars on the inner than the outer weights), every other weight is not connected except to each other, but we diconnected them earlier, so what are the other weights doing? Some other use has to come in which may complete the prime mover...

What backs up my disconnection of weights is this, that MT 15 does not have the outer weights connected to each other, only the bars are connected to the outer weights, the outer weights now need to be doubled, then some other use they must perform to complete the prime mover?
That is why MT 15 alone does not reveal the prime mover but once the outer, now inner weights are doubled, they need to help with the lifting of the bars some how, then it is possible that we have a runner...

One more thing, the long bars in MT 15 could have springs attached on them, so when they lift at the bottom, they could compress the springs at the bottom, then the spring with the help of the weights would shoot the bar upwards at the top, just an idea...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 04:23:14 AM by Alexioco »

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My Bessler Quest
« on: April 02, 2008, 03:16:23 AM »

Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2008, 03:10:20 PM »
very nice post, i have only been at my wheel quest for about a month, I was thinking that the  early drawings meant nothing, as my understanding was that this book was a progression of failiures and the erly ones did not work.

AM i Wrong, was the book written as a complete unit after the wheel was working and it has clues? I assumed it was his sketch book and showed progressive variations in thinking. Which would have meant to me that the early pics 1-120 were to show us where not to go.


Anybody with feedback would be great.


Also if anyone has not already done so that is new and might stumble upon this, On the other WHEEL their is also a discussion board, but better yet it has the historical posts. Its great reading and has many ideas and failed attempts. But what is the funniest is the so called experienced builders on this site make all of the same mistakes new people do, Claims they have it and the like.  Also John Collins appears to be highly active in the early days and also Stefan. Who i believe is the founder of this site.


But anyway. i would say required reading is all the posts (history included on that site) it will take several hours but gives valuable insight into what everyone is willing to share. Also its valuable because everyone stays away from discussing the one idea they are all working on. LEVERs and Pendulums.

Its funny to see them hint around and change direction. Its most likely where all bessler fanatics are focusing after playing with several variations of failed wheels. But you will see they keep any Pendulum info close to the belt. Which i believe is bessler's little Joke.


I constantly think.

And you still do not see......

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 04:03:07 PM »
very nice post, i have only been at my wheel quest for about a month, I was thinking that the  early drawings meant nothing, as my understanding was that this book was a progression of failiures and the erly ones did not work.

AM i Wrong, was the book written as a complete unit after the wheel was working and it has clues? I assumed it was his sketch book and showed progressive variations in thinking. Which would have meant to me that the early pics 1-120 were to show us where not to go.


Anybody with feedback would be great.


Also if anyone has not already done so that is new and might stumble upon this, On the other WHEEL their is also a discussion board, but better yet it has the historical posts. Its great reading and has many ideas and failed attempts. But what is the funniest is the so called experienced builders on this site make all of the same mistakes new people do, Claims they have it and the like.  Also John Collins appears to be highly active in the early days and also Stefan. Who i believe is the founder of this site.


But anyway. i would say required reading is all the posts (history included on that site) it will take several hours but gives valuable insight into what everyone is willing to share. Also its valuable because everyone stays away from discussing the one idea they are all working on. LEVERs and Pendulums.

Its funny to see them hint around and change direction. Its most likely where all bessler fanatics are focusing after playing with several variations of failed wheels. But you will see they keep any Pendulum info close to the belt. Which i believe is bessler's little Joke.


I constantly think.

And you still do not see......

Keeping these things a secret is a little bit like, someone who wants to be Bessler saying: Look at me. Then again, I once kept my wheel a secret, so I can?t really say anything :P
Anyway, where do I read about the historical part?

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 04:03:07 PM »
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Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 04:44:47 PM »
01-03 archive

http://besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html


03- 03 archive

http://besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/wwwboard2.html


seems to be alot of good stuf from back when people were newer to the idea of sharing, They all thought they were so close back then, seems nothing has changed.


also this

http://www.scribd.com/doc/445852/Perpetual-Motion-History?ga_related_doc=1



Perpetual motion book from much further back, seems par for the course if you know what i mean

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 05:46:01 PM »
01-03 archive

http://besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html


03- 03 archive

http://besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/wwwboard2.html


seems to be alot of good stuf from back when people were newer to the idea of sharing, They all thought they were so close back then, seems nothing has changed.


also this

http://www.scribd.com/doc/445852/Perpetual-Motion-History?ga_related_doc=1



Perpetual motion book from much further back, seems par for the course if you know what i mean

Thanks, should be helpful

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 05:46:01 PM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 10:12:57 PM »
@ Dgraphic .. Bessler's MT was unpublished by him - John Collins published it recently - Bessler, after being arrested, became paranoid about his treatise [intended for a school of mechanics he was to establish after sale of his wheel] & removed a short series of woodcuts that showed his invention & how it worked - he inserted in their place a page affectionately called the 'toy page' about which he annotates that seekers of his perpetual motion should consult, if they know how to use the toys in a different way - he also says in various places [as Alexioco shows in his attachments form the wiki] that various drawings [woodcuts] within MT show the possibility & impossibility of PM & with a discerning mind one may consult them & eventually find movement - N.B. this progression of clues within notations is a separate issue from the later insertion of the toy page, so they might overlap to a degree - all the figures in MT [as they are] do not work as a self sustaining motion & do indeed show a progression of thoughts & experiments, some from Bessler himself & some acquired by him, but originated by others, to go into his treatise.

As for Besslerwheel members, they are not to different from the members here - they are human afterall with the same foibles, strengths & weaknesses - some have a depth of hands on skills & build experience in things mechanical & some are reservoirs of physics knowledge & reasoning - seldom do members come along that have both skill sets in equal portions to apply to the task - their experience in pursuit of this enigma ranges from days to decades - often the same ideas come up again & again, depending on the above factors, so it requires a bit of patience to be a member - some members choose to open source their thoughts, ideas & build experiences - others prefer to think & build their ideas in confidence, perhaps working with others in a small focus group or such - the reasons for why not everybody is willing to leap on the highest available rock to shout out their latest thoughts is that they have seen & heard it all before with the inevitable delusion & disappointment of failure, they don't wish to publically ride the manic rollercoaster of the PM seeker - this does not mean that they are all sceptics, knockers, doubters & pessimistic nay sayers who don't contribute anything to the discussions, far from it in fact - just that everybody is at a different place on the road that is this journey & sometimes they have company & sometimes they do not - many are just going about their business learning from their mistakes & attempting to come up with a POP before making any unfounded claims - some want to patent the idea [should the POP be successful] while others do not & want to release information immediately to boards like this [that's OK by me] - the ones who want to patent first also have different reasons for doing so - some have solely self interest at heart, some want to protect the idea first then licence it so that they retain control of its commercialisation while still allowing anyone to build one in their garage.

Just like this boards membership it is an eclectic bunch of individuals whose motivations can only be known by them & guessed at, you hope they are honourable.

P.S. I think you are completely wrong about levers & pendulums being the big kept secret - while some members [experienced or not] like one or both as possibilities as part of a working wheel, I think you will find the ideas & principles employed in this search are as varied as the membership is diverse.

Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 10:37:34 PM »
@ Fletcher


WELL SAID!

Thank you for the historical info, I have tried my best to read every available page that i can find about the subject, but still find that some things are speculation on my part.



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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 10:37:34 PM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 11:45:03 PM »
@ Dgraphic .. Bessler's MT was unpublished by him - John Collins published it recently - Bessler, after being arrested, became paranoid about his treatise [intended for a school of mechanics he was to establish after sale of his wheel] & removed a short series of woodcuts that showed his invention & how it worked - he inserted in their place a page affectionately called the 'toy page' about which he annotates that seekers of his perpetual motion should consult, if they know how to use the toys in a different way - he also says in various places [as Alexioco shows in his attachments form the wiki] that various drawings [woodcuts] within MT show the possibility & impossibility of PM & with a discerning mind one may consult them & eventually find movement - N.B. this progression of clues within notations is a separate issue from the later insertion of the toy page, so they might overlap to a degree - all the figures in MT [as they are] do not work as a self sustaining motion & do indeed show a progression of thoughts & experiments, some from Bessler himself & some acquired by him, but originated by others, to go into his treatise.

As for Besslerwheel members, they are not to different from the members here - they are human afterall with the same foibles, strengths & weaknesses - some have a depth of hands on skills & build experience in things mechanical & some are reservoirs of physics knowledge & reasoning - seldom do members come along that have both skill sets in equal portions to apply to the task - their experience in pursuit of this enigma ranges from days to decades - often the same ideas come up again & again, depending on the above factors, so it requires a bit of patience to be a member - some members choose to open source their thoughts, ideas & build experiences - others prefer to think & build their ideas in confidence, perhaps working with others in a small focus group or such - the reasons for why not everybody is willing to leap on the highest available rock to shout out their latest thoughts is that they have seen & heard it all before with the inevitable delusion & disappointment of failure, they don't wish to publically ride the manic rollercoaster of the PM seeker - this does not mean that they are all sceptics, knockers, doubters & pessimistic nay sayers who don't contribute anything to the discussions, far from it in fact - just that everybody is at a different place on the road that is this journey & sometimes they have company & sometimes they do not - many are just going about their business learning from their mistakes & attempting to come up with a POP before making any unfounded claims - some want to patent the idea [should the POP be successful] while others do not & want to release information immediately to boards like this [that's OK by me] - the ones who want to patent first also have different reasons for doing so - some have solely self interest at heart, some want to protect the idea first then licence it so that they retain control of its commercialisation while still allowing anyone to build one in their garage.

Just like this boards membership it is an eclectic bunch of individuals whose motivations can only be known by them & guessed at, you hope they are honourable.

P.S. I think you are completely wrong about levers & pendulums being the big kept secret - while some members [experienced or not] like one or both as possibilities as part of a working wheel, I think you will find the ideas & principles employed in this search are as varied as the membership is diverse.

Very well put
Well, maybe I am wrong or right, I don?t know, but it?s an idea...
I wanted to post so someone may be able to notice something I have not, or put information to it, the toys page has got to have something to do with it, its not there for no reason, but there are so many things, I can only go one step at a time...

Offline fletcher

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 01:30:58 AM »
Absolutely - we all can only take one step at a time, until insight comes upon us - in the meantime we try to winnow fact from myth & fallacy & use whatever skills & tools we have & learn from them & others - including any covert references Bessler may have made to different gravity based Out Of Balance [OOB] principles he considered usable to provide torque, once his prime mover force was discovered, of which he mentions almost nothing throughout any of his different publications, but is likely to be in the toy page, in part to help establish his post humus priority, IMO.

N.B. IMO, it is equally valid to try & replicate his wheel performances [using technology of the day] any way you can, as surely the objective is replication of his feats, which may not also mean or support the strict definition of Perpetual Motion per se, but might be legitimately called Free Energy.

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 01:30:58 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 01:43:25 AM »
Absolutely - we all can only take one step at a time, until insight comes upon us - in the meantime we try to winnow fact from myth & fallacy & use whatever skills & tools we have & learn from them & others - including any covert references Bessler may have made to different gravity based Out Of Balance [OOB] principles he considered usable to provide torque, once his prime mover force was discovered, of which he mentions almost nothing throughout any of his different publications, but is likely to be in the toy page, in part to help establish his post humus priority, IMO.

N.B. IMO, it is equally valid to try & replicate his wheel performances [using technology of the day] any way you can, as surely the objective is replication of his feats, which may not also mean or support the strict definition of Perpetual Motion per se, but might be legitimately called Free Energy.

May I ask, what is IMO?
Also, about the toy page, what pictures are on there?
are they all put in to one, like this?


Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 02:09:41 AM »
I have now tried looking at this and came up with this, see what you think...

1.
Bessler
Shows two hammer men toys with two men each. Each man swings a weight.

Hints:
Quote
Alternate: Indeed, a work of art must drive itself from many separate pieces of lead; That are now always two and two; If a thing takes outwardly the place, thus the other drives to the axle/shaft; this is soon here, and that is soon there; And also changes on and on.
Quote
these weights ... are the essential parts ... and when they come to be placed together and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium ... one or other of them must apply its weight at right angles to the axis ...

2.
Bessler
Shows two hammer men toys with one swung to the right and one swung to the left.

Hints:
Quote
Weights acted in pairs
Quote
Alternate: Indeed, a work of art must drive itself from many separate pieces of lead; That are now always two and two; If a thing takes outwardly the place, thus the other drives to the axle/shaft; this is soon here, and that is soon there; And also changes on and on.

3.
Bessler

Shows what looks like a link chain on the far right side. (Idea: Weights were connected)
Shows what looks like a Jacob's Ladder toy on the right side. (Idea: Weights move in the same fasion)
Shows a scissor-jack on the left side. (Idea: Weights moved upwards)

Hints:
Quote
If I arrange to have just one cross-bar in my machine, it revolves very slowly, just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, but, on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys and weights, the machine can revolve much faster

4.
Bessler

Shows fat men swinging large short hammers against an anvil and skinny men swinging lighter long handled axes chopping wood.

Hints:
Quote
On one side it is heavy and full; on the other empty and light, just as it should be.

5.
Bessler

Shows the skinny men with twisted clothing

Hints:
Quote
Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.

6.
Bessler

Shows a toy top that will flip over, end for end when spun.

Hints:
Quote
Alternate: Indeed, a work of art must drive itself from many separate pieces of lead; That are now always two and two; If a thing takes outwardly the place, thus the other drives to the axle/shaft; this is soon here, and that is soon there; And also changes on and on.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 02:59:36 AM by Alexioco »

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 02:09:41 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2008, 03:18:49 AM »
IMO = In My Opinion ... JMO = Just My Opinion ...  IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

Yes, the toy page is just as depicted, all lumped together as you see it with the spinning top hand drawn, possibly at a later date & perhaps as an after thought ?

The toys sure do show mechanical actions at one level & I see you are attampting to interpret them in 'other ways' - everybody will have a different opinion about what each might mean in another context - personally I think they mostly are just mechanical actions but that the top was obviously added for a reason.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2008, 03:54:10 AM »
Ah, thank you :)

So what do you think about my interpretation of the toy?

Also, I would very much like to know your interpretation on this toy...

I agree, they could be mechanical, but how do you interprete that into a wheel?

Offline fletcher

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 04:55:11 AM »
I think if you go back & re-read your own post previous about the hints you have identified you will see that you & he are describing an overbalance wheel where weights work in pairs - one is farther from the axle than its opposite & this gives the wheel torque - he hints at many different types of overbalancing arrangements & calls them principles at various times - it would appear that once the prime mover is found & applied that just about any of his overbalance wheel principles in MT could be employed to do the job [see his comments about the completely different system of MT48] - ordinarily an OOB wheel that starts that way ends up in balance where the CoG is below the axle on the vertical line - Bessler's accomplishment IMO was that he found a prime moving force to shift or lift weights at the appropriate time & then later restored them to closer to the axle on the ascending side, possibly using springs at that point, which meant that the wheel had asymmetric torque which allowed it to self sustain its rotation - if that were the case then the toy page mostly represents different ways & actions for changing a wheels CoG or CoM [pushing & pulling] - as an example of something slightly different the Jacobs ladder looks to me like MT9 if the circle is closed - the top would appear to be an important part of completing the puzzle otherwise why its late inclusion, especially if you have ruled out gravity itself as the prime mover - many of the gravity fundamentalists haven't yet ruled it out however - I'm sure your've read all this on Besslerwheel.com though.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 06:39:33 AM by fletcher »

Offline Alexioco

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Re: My Bessler Quest
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2008, 01:46:21 PM »
Very interesting indeed, I haven?t read about MT 48, is there any link I can possibly read about the MT's, the ones he wrote about maybe?

Thanks :)

Also, would this wheel work?

« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 08:26:52 PM by Alexioco »

 

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