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Author Topic: The Nature of Magnetism  (Read 4004 times)

leeroyjenkinsii

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The Nature of Magnetism
« on: March 17, 2008, 06:02:05 AM »
It is true that a changing magnetic field induces a current in a circuit.  Why is it that only a changing magnetic field does this?  Is it possible that a static magnetic field can do the same if done properly?  Afterall, typically anything that occurs due to electricity can also be used to create electricity.  For example, light can be created by electricity and can be converted to electricity.  The same holds true for mechanical motion. 

It is plain that electricity can be used to create a static magnetic field--not constantly switching poles.  Any plain old electromagnet will do this. 

Perhaps a static magnetic field does create electricity in a circuit--maybe we just don't know how to take advantage of it yet.  What if a circuit was created that used multiple diodes to only permit electical flow one way and blocked electrons from flowing the other way so that when the magnet created excess electrons in it's portion of the ciruit, the electrons would flow(dc) in only one permitted way then the isolated portion of the circuit that was influenced by the magnet would have a dearth of electrons/positive charge causing electrons to be pulled from outside of the first blocking diode  and pushed through the other diode and so on continuing the cycle.

leeroyjenkinsii

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Re: The Nature of Magnetism
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 08:40:53 AM »
I have a problem with the current understanding of electrical generation with the use of magnets.  Can someone please respond to clear this up for me?  You can even call me an idiot if you like.  As far as I can tell the current theory holds that electrons are knocked loose from a conductor via a moving magnetic field in a closed circuit to produce currents.  Now this implies that the electrons were already present in the conductive material, eg. insulated copper wire.  Now, imagine an extremely simple circuit consisting of a small watch battery, insulated copper wire and an led in a closed circuit.  The led will keep flashing and emitting photons until all the excess electrons from the battery have been used up to.  Now, take a small magnet generator and place it in the circuit removing the battery.  You could spin this generator and make the led shine forever or until the unit broke.  My problem is this:  if a changing magnetic field only knocks loose free electrons, eventually the supply in the copper wire should give out and not allow any more photons to be produced regardless of the changing magnetic field.

Could it not be true somehow that this magnetic field is actually converting to electrons, the same way photoelectric semiconductors convert sunlight?

Feynman

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Re: The Nature of Magnetism
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 06:23:13 PM »
These are all excellent questions.   I do not know the answers.  I think that we must only construct the theory from the experiment, so we must continue to do experiments.


"Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago by instinct or reason; it has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic! If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic ? and this we know it is, for certain ? then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature."
-Nikola Tesla

However, my understanding is this:  a magnetic field has only the illusion of being static.  Since it is actually a dipole, the EM energy which it pours out is actually coming from the broken symmetry of QED (the virtual particle flux of the active vacuum).  This is basically along the same lines as Bearden, and even mainstream physics.  The trick is can we harness this energy?

Now let me specifically answer your questions if I can:

"Why is it that only a changing magnetic field does [induction of EMF]?"
I don't know if this premise is true.  Perhaps only a changing magnetic field induces something we are able to -measure-.

"Perhaps a static magnetic field does create electricity in a circuit--maybe we just don't know how to take advantage of it yet"
I think this is closer to the truth.

"Can someone please respond to clear this up for me?  You can even call me an idiot if you like. "
Quantum electrodynamics are only beginning to really understand magnetics.  There are college graduate courses in this that are still catching up with experiments.  I recently went through a course listing and was astounded by the phenomenon now under investigation in conventional academia.  You are not an idiot for asking this.    The only idiots are the ones who do not ask questions.


"The led will keep flashing and emitting photons until all the excess electrons from the battery have been used up to. "
Only (in conventional theory) if the circuit is at absolute zero and there is no friction.

"My problem is this:  if a changing magnetic field only knocks loose free electrons, eventually the supply in the copper wire should give out and not allow any more photons to be produced regardless of the changing magnetic field."
Hah! This is a great question.  I don't know the answer.  I suspect the conventional idea is that the electrons simply move around the closed current loop circuit and there is no net change in total electrons present.  You simply have progressively killed your source potential (battery)  through the time domain.



"Could it not be true somehow that this magnetic field is actually converting to electrons, the same way photoelectric semiconductors convert sunlight?"
Yes in a way this is correct.  But there is no conversion, the flux comes from nothing.  This is what we mean by broken symmetry.  Real flux comes from nothing.   Magnetism and electricity are unified by the Maxwell-Heaviside equations.  Once you put the Maxwell-Heaviside equations with photons and special relativity you get Quantum Electrodynamics.  So yet, there is some serious symmetry here in that there are very strong analogies between E-field and B-fields, as they are linked mathemetically.   But there is also broken symmetry at the core, so in this sense the true source of the flux in a magnetic is a bit of a mystery. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations

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The magnetic field equations can be derived from consideration of the transformation of the electric field equations under relativistic transformations at low velocities, and the same may be done with the electric field equations. Einstein motivated the special theory by noting that a description of a conductor moving with respect to a magnet must generate a consistent set of fields irrespective of whether the force is calculated in the rest frame of the magnet or that of the conductor.[3]

In relativity, the equations are written in an even more compact, "manifestly covariant" form, in terms of the rank-2 antisymmetric field-strength 4-tensor that unifies the electric and magnetic fields into a single object:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/4/4/2448f80f927b9ca11959f1cf9537fca6.png)
Quote
Kaluza and Klein showed in the 1920s that Maxwell's equations can be derived by extending general relativity into five dimensions. This strategy of using higher dimensions to unify different forces is an active area of research in particle physics.





« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 07:37:22 PM by Feynman »

Koen1

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Re: The Nature of Magnetism
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 02:45:23 PM »
My problem is this:  if a changing magnetic field only knocks loose free electrons, eventually the supply in the copper wire should give out and not allow any more photons to be produced regardless of the changing magnetic field.

Heh, it seems you are assuming the free electrons are "sucked out of" the copper wire, and the copper wire is left devoid of electrons?
That is not what happens.
Imagine the electrons in the copper as a gas in a chamber; now imagine sucking some of the electron "gas" out.
If the chamber is perfectly sealed, the gas concentration would drop, just like you describe happens in the copper.
So with only an "out"-lead, the electron flow would stop at some point because the number of available electrons
has dropped too much.
But a wire in an electrical circuit always has two connections: an "in"- and an "out"-lead, or the "positive" and
"negative" pole.
The relative "electron gas pressure" difference causes electrons to be "sucked in" to the copper on the opposite end.
There is always a flow of electrons in a closed circuit. Were it not closed, there would be no circuit, there would be
no path for electrons to follow to get back to the "other end" of the copper wire.
In such a case we can have electrostatic charge phenomena, which indeed can lead to electrostatic charge buildup.
Quick recap: yes, if the circuit is not closed, you should indeed get a relatively positively charged copper wire
on one end and a relatively negatively charged wire on the other end of the generator.

Quote
Could it not be true somehow that this magnetic field is actually converting to electrons, the same way photoelectric semiconductors convert sunlight?
I don't follow what you mean by "magnetic field converting into electrons", as magnetism is a property resulting from the motion of electrons...
Also, photoelectric convertors don't magically convert sunlight into electrocity, it is a matter of the photons knocking electrons loose,
and the material in which it happens not allowing them to return to the now relatively positive atoms in any other way than through the wire.
Perhaps if you can elaborate this "magnetic field converting into electrons" idea, I could say something more usefull?

leeroyjenkinsii

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Re: The Nature of Magnetism
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 01:56:39 AM »
Perhaps this is not the case.  If the circuit is actually closed, meaning that only a connection to the generator, the led and to the other end of the generator then the only electrons actually available are in the wire.  Given that matter can never be created or destroyed and light, according to Einstein and Netwon, is composed of actual particles called photons which are emitted from the led, it stands to reason that if there were no conversion from magnetic field to electron, then eventually the supply of electrons would give out since the photons are continually emitting. 

So, to sum up, the photons(particles of matter) are emitting from the led.  They cannot be created from nothing, so the electrons must somehow convert to photons(even if this is not a one to one relationship).  This means that the supply of electrons should be used up if no new electrons are created in the wire.  This does not happen.  Therefore, somehow, new electrons are being put into the wire.  Perhaps they are converted from the magnetic field somehow.  Perhaps the magnetic field is not a mere "property" but something else entirely.  I don't know.  I can only say that I do believe that matter can not be created or destroyed only converted so there has to be some kind of conversion going on in the wire.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 02:59:08 AM by leeroyjenkinsii »

leeroyjenkinsii

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Re: The Nature of Magnetism
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2008, 04:16:42 AM »
I see no one has a response to that.  It seems to me that there is no doubt that the magnetic field is some type of "particle" that is converted to electrons.  How else do you explain this and keep within the bounds of the law of conservation of matter?  The only thing you could possibly say is the electrons are either being used from the insulator and or air.

Perhaps the magnetic force is a particle of some type as well--similar to a graviton?