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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: prometei on March 28, 2008, 01:41:49 AM

Title: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on March 28, 2008, 01:41:49 AM
greetings ever1

I've stumbled upon a page of a company that sells 3 types of multifilar wire
http://wires.co.uk/acatalog/cu_enam.html

they've got

1. Twin Twisted Enamelled Copper Wire
2. Stranded Enameled Copper
3. Bonded Bifilar Wire

any1 ever used premade bifilar wire?
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: Feynman on March 28, 2008, 02:13:55 AM
No, but I might consider it!   ;)
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: helmut on March 28, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
No, but I might consider it!   ;)
Better do your calculation bevor ordering.
they might have special offers ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on March 29, 2008, 01:46:23 AM
I wonder what kind of machines do they use to make the multifilar wire and wind the spools

I bet it's not one of these  ;D

(http://photofile.ru/photo/iog.hotboxru/3518342/large/76321085.jpg)
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: Feynman on March 29, 2008, 02:31:58 AM
I didn't know you could make a machine to do the winding!


Damnit!   I wound this little bastard by hand.  Took like 6 hours.
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/691/toroidww0.jpg)


Well now I know, haha
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on March 29, 2008, 04:06:35 AM
I didn't know you could make a machine to do the winding!

Well ye, u need one. I made this one pretty quick, it's a disaster :) Now I'm brainstorming how to make a new winder that could wind bi and trifilar coils. Maybe you guys can throw some ideas in here, pictures or links.......
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: kallstrom_74 on March 29, 2008, 08:20:04 PM
single winding..you wind 1 wire! right? no problem
2 wires or more..how will they be winded? must they be twisted as well or just take the wires and wind them?


 yes it would be interesting if anyone cold show a plan to build a "winder" that would wind multiple wires
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: helmut on March 29, 2008, 08:26:46 PM
I didn't know you could make a machine to do the winding!

Well ye, u need one. I made this one pretty quick, it's a disaster :) Now I'm brainstorming how to make a new winder that could wind bi and trifilar coils. Maybe you guys can throw some ideas in here, pictures or links.......

Albert has shown once a good winder in hit bedini in germany thread

look here:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3725.0.html

helmut
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: z.monkey on April 01, 2008, 02:46:46 AM
Howdy Y'all,

Bifilar wire is not the same thing as twisted pairs.  Twisted pairs suppress the electromagnetic effects of the coil.  This is why twisted pairs are used for long range communications wires like Ethernet cable.  Bifilar wires are laid down side by side down the entire length of the core, and usually in only one layer, like a AM radio coil.  They can be laid down in multiple layers, but this extremely tedious to keep the layers lined up properly.  Bifilar windings are worth exploring, but my work is in another area at this point.

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on April 01, 2008, 12:31:22 PM
Bifilar wires are laid down side by side down the entire length of the core, and usually in only one layer, like a AM radio coil. 

hmm... interesting. So has any1 got a one layer bifilar coil in their radiant charger setup? I've got a 8 cm coil, probably more than 10 layers. I was actually thinking about winding some longer coils so that only maybe 3-4 layers would be necessary, easier to wind and they would turn out neater. But I don't know if such long cores (welding rods) would require stronger magnets.....?
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: z.monkey on April 01, 2008, 01:36:11 PM
Howdy,
I have done a lot of experimenting with bifilar wire.  It works best on a low permeability core.  This is because the windings are aiding the electron spin in their neighboring windings.  This decreases the need for a "hard" high permeability core to produce inductance.  Having an iron core with bifilar windings is counter productive because the windings are aiding the electron spin in their neighboring windings the wires influence on the core is bucking every other winding.  Wind a regular core with all the windings in one direction, hook it up to your pulse generator, and "feel" the inductance of the coil by holding a magnet in your hand in close proximity to the core.  If you don't have a gauss meter, this is the second best way to judge the inductance.  Next wind up a bifilar core, and give it the same test.  You can even wire the two coils in parallel and "feel" them both in real time to make a judgment.

I have never seen magnet wire sold in a bifilar configuration.  What I have done in this situation is drill two tiny holes in the base of one of the ends of the core end.  Run two pieces of magnet wire through the holes and secure them, solder them together.  Then wind the two pieces of wire down the core in parallel.  The next layer gets way more complicated, the #1 wire of layer 2 needs to be ran directly on top of the #2 wire of layer 1, and the #2 wire of layer 2 needs to be ran directly on top the #1 wire of layer 1.  This is really hard to do.  I have not found an automated way to do it.  And, I don't think that it is really worth it in a "hard", high permeability core, because the core is canceling the gain produced by the bifilar windings.

Draw yourself a diagram of a core from the side view.  Then draw some little circles sitting on it which represent the wires in a cross section.  In a normal winding the electron spin is the same for every wire.  In a bifilar coil the electron spin of each wire is opposite on every other wire.  Draw some little circular arrows on the wires to represent electron spin.  Now in the normal coil the electron spin in influencing the core in the same direction.  In the bifilar core the electron spin influence on the core is broken every two windings.  This effect mitigates the gain of the electrons spin aiding created by the bifilar windings.

There is another way to wind the coil also.  Lay down one layer of wire in a clockwise direction.  Make two holes large enough to accommodate the wire, and have the first winding exit the spool, and the reenter the spool immediately.  Make the second layer of windings counterclockwise nested in the groove of the first layer of windings.  At the end of the second layer make another two holes in the spool, and wind the third layer clockwise.  Continue this process until you have the number of layers that you want.  This type of winding is a hybrid of normal windings and bifilar windings, but is compatible with a "hard" high permeability core because all the windings are in the same direction on each layer.  This way you don't get the electron spin bucking on the core, but you also get some of the electron spin aiding between the layers.  Am I including some of my notes from when I first started toying with the idea of electron spin aiding and bucking.

Happy winding...
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: z.monkey on April 01, 2008, 01:36:50 PM
Here is the second page of notes...
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on April 03, 2008, 03:27:07 PM
hey z.monkey thanks for posting your notes, unfortunately the scans are at very low resolution and I could not read everything more so print it out, could you scan them at a higher resolution?



I have never seen magnet wire sold in a bifilar configuration. 
........

The next layer gets way more complicated, the #1 wire of layer 2 needs to be ran directly on top of the #2 wire of layer 1, and the #2 wire of layer 2 needs to be ran directly on top the #1 wire of layer 1.  This is really hard to do.  I have not found an automated way to do it.  And, I don't think that it is really worth it in a "hard", high permeability core, because the core is canceling the gain produced by the bifilar windings.

The page I've mentioned in the first post http://wires.co.uk/acatalog/cu_enam.html has this description
"Bonded Bifilar Wire
Twin solderable enamelled copper wire in different colours parallel bonded."

So with this wire it would be easier to wind the coils the way you are describing.


One more thing. I'm not sure I understood the whole thing about the electron spin, how do electrons spin in a regular coil?

(http://iog.hotbox.ru/coil%20electron%20spin.jpg)

Which one is correct 1 or 2 or......?
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: z.monkey on April 03, 2008, 04:02:10 PM
Howdy Prometei,
Yes I can scan those at a higher resolution, but I can't post them on the forum, there is a 50K limit on attachments.  I could send them to your email address.  The bonded bifilar wire may be the right thing, the wires should run parallel all the way, not twisted.  I would need to see a picture, the website didn't have a picture.  It did say parallel bonded.  Yes this would make winding easier, but its not two hard to do with two regular wires.  Picture #1 is regular windings.  Picture 2 is bifilar windings, except that you should use a unique color to differentiate each wire of the bifilar pair.  Electron spin refers to the electrons spinning around a wire as they travel down the wire.  The electron itself spins as it travels through space leaving a wake in the ethers as it travels.  When the electron is traveling down the wire its own spin will cause it to travel in loops around the wire as it travels.  This is where the adjacent wires in the coil will either aid or buck the electron spin in the wire we are looking at.  The bifilar solution aids the electron spin in the windings, but causes bucking in core.  The type of hybrid winding described in my notes will improve the bucking in the windings, and also eliminate the bucking in the core.  Regular windings (all in the same direction) are "core oriented" windings that maximize the magnetization of the core and ignore the bucking in the windings.

If you want, you can send me your email address in a personal message (so as not to post it in public).  Then I can send you the enhanced resolution notes about the electron spin aiding and bucking within the windings.

Blessed Be Brother...
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on April 03, 2008, 05:34:57 PM
hey z.monkey

I've sent you a private msg with my email

I was also wondering what if one was to wind a bifilar coil using guitar string wire? :) You know the heavier gauge guitar strings consist of a core and a wire wound around it. So if one makes a coil using such wire one will get a coil wrapped around a coil :) I don't know whether or not this would be beneficial, just thought about it

When you say bifilar coil do you mean the bedini ssg setup or a coil where two of the four wires are joined at the end, like this

Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: z.monkey on April 03, 2008, 08:41:39 PM
Howdy Prometei,

I have never experimented with winding wire on a wire.  Usually the core is composed of a ferrous substance and the wire is not.  In the case of a guitar string, the inner and outer wires are shorted together, so it would probably act as a single conductor.  With the bifilar windings, the two connections are on one end of the coil, and on the other end the two wires are connected together.  The coil in my notes will work better than then the bifilar coil with a ferrous core because there is no bucking in the core.  If you use an air core then the bifilar coil will work better.  I'll send my notes tonight after work...

Goodwill to All, for All is One....
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on April 05, 2008, 05:07:43 PM
hello folks

So electron spin is an important factor to take into consideration when dealing with coils, how about the cables that connect the batteries to the circuit?

I got rid of the alligator clip leads and made me some DIY cables with gator clips, I've used regular household 230V power cable.

(http://iog.hotbox.ru/battery%20connectors.jpg)

Do you think it would be better if I separate the positive and negative leads?


p.s. z.monkey thanks for your email, I did not read the notes yet, maybe they would answer my question.....
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: z.monkey on April 06, 2008, 03:54:20 AM
Howdy,
The electron spin considerations only come into play when you are dealing with inductors.  When you are dealing with wire that travels in straight lines, such as power supply cables you don't have to worry about that.  When you are trying to magnetize a core the orientation, and placement of the wire is more important.  Having good power connections is important.  You are using alligator clips there.  You can buy crimp terminals that fit the battery connectors perfectly so you don't have to worry about that connection.  Then use a switch to connect and disconnect the battery.

That's a good looking setup there Prometei.  I can't quite see the rotor but it looks like there is a resin wheel with magnets embedded in it.  Kind of looks like a one cylinder Bedini setup.  Does it run yet? 

Looks cool...

Good Work...
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: prometei on April 07, 2008, 02:50:17 AM
You are using alligator clips there.  You can buy crimp terminals that fit the battery connectors perfectly so you don't have to worry about that connection.  Then use a switch to connect and disconnect the battery.

That's a good looking setup there Prometei.  I can't quite see the rotor but it looks like there is a resin wheel with magnets embedded in it.  Kind of looks like a one cylinder Bedini setup.  Does it run yet? 

Looks cool...

Good Work...

Hey tanks. Well my leads have kroko clips on one end and crimp terminals on the other. And ye the motor runs. Here is the topic I've started with more info and pics
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4294.new.html#new
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: ronvbnt on January 10, 2014, 03:18:39 PM
 
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted)
I have begun building my own spool spinner for in-house manufacturing of twisted pair stainless fine enamel coated wire to be wound according to Stan Meyers VIC bobbin core. I've added a description, more photos and videos to the link above. I hope to break this barrier and make twisted pair capability available to hobbyists like myself, also a retired NASA contractor. Thanks, Ron
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: TinselKoala on January 11, 2014, 10:39:17 PM
Your image file seems to be corrupted.
 :-\
Title: Re: Bifilar wire
Post by: e2matrix on January 12, 2014, 07:02:07 PM
Here you go:

Title: Re: Bifilar wire, First Ever Videos of a Working Spiral Spool Spinner
Post by: ronvbnt on April 29, 2014, 12:48:15 AM
I just uploaded video showing spiral spool spinner in operation.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0)

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0)
I have begun building my own spool spinner for in-house manufacturing of twisted pair stainless fine enamel coated wire to be wound according to Stan Meyers VIC bobbin core. I've added a description, more photos and videos to the link above. I hope to break this barrier and make twisted pair capability available to hobbyists like myself, also a retired NASA contractor. Thanks, Ron