Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Alexioco on March 23, 2008, 03:10:11 AM

Title: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 23, 2008, 03:10:11 AM
Perpetual Motion Wheel

Weight A, B, C and D Push down on the right hand side of the wheel lifting weight E and F.

When weight D reaches the release point, the peg will fall to the side of the wheel releasing weight D and causing it to swing, passing through stopper 5 and resting on stopper 6.

As weight F, A, B and C push down, weight E takes the place of where weight F was, and weight D takes the place of where weight E was. This motion then keeps on repeating perpetually.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: PulsedPower on March 24, 2008, 07:38:54 AM
A nobody else has commented, here goes. There will be no net output from this device, gravity acts in one direction, down so the only motion which matters is that in the up / down direction. Motion of a weight in the up direction requires work to be done on it, motion of a weight in the down direction produces work. In this wheel as with all wheels the weight goes up the same distance as it comes down otherwise it would rise or fall with each rotation of the wheel eventually leaving the wheel perimeter.

I have an idea what you were thinking when designing this, that the weight on the LHS is closer to the axle and therefore doesnt need as much torque to raise it as the corresponding weight on the RHS which is further out from the shaft will produce in falling. While any horizontal motion of the weight is irrelvent to gravity I will explain where the missing torque on the LHS comes from, the spring bends and distorts the normally sinusoidal torque from raising a weight on a rigid arm to a more square and somewhat delayed torque. Whatever shape the torque curve on the LHS is the area under it will correspond to the work done in raising the weight from the bottom of the wheel to the top.

Gravity is a powerful source of energy but it can not be turned off for the return cycle, better off making a hydro electric generator then nature takes care of the return cycle :)
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 24, 2008, 08:05:34 AM
similar to this:
http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/GravityMotors/photos/index.html
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 24, 2008, 03:41:38 PM
No, it?s nothing like that :P
Have you read the description of how the wheel works?
It keeps 4 weights on the right and two on the left, so it's 4 verses 2, well, that has to move, and in order to keep it moving, the bottom weight swings, read the description just incase you don?t understand its workings...
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: helmut on March 24, 2008, 04:41:43 PM
@Alexioco
Thats a new idea
Did you make a model of that wheel.?

helmut
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 24, 2008, 06:21:30 PM
@alex

Keep up the good work, your very inspirational. Even though you sound crazy and irrational and most people ridicule you, i sort of admire your tenacity and spirit to continue after what your dream is. Now if you and every one else shared ideas instead of misleading and holding back then this would already be done. But that just gives me more time to finish my secret project, LOL no not really.

Your wheel shows real potential to learn from. Pictures are great, but i would suggest some experimenting. Not building the whole wheel but focus on how the piece that powers works.

Sometimes the bounce or return of the object that is propelling actually creates more force going in the opposite direction than expected. Some times the point on the wheel were you expect the COG of the weight to be acting on the wheel is different than expected. I don't need you to build a wheel to prove anything to me. As like the rest who have working wheels its all up to you to learn how to get their from where you are . :) Without building prototypes and feeling the wheel in your hands you will find you creative mind struggling with reality and until your hand feels the action your mind cannot create the next step.


Keep it up. i'm sure your closer than youv'e been
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 24, 2008, 08:28:16 PM
@alex

Keep up the good work, your very inspirational. Even though you sound crazy and irrational and most people ridicule you, i sort of admire your tenacity and spirit to continue after what your dream is. Now if you and every one else shared ideas instead of misleading and holding back then this would already be done. But that just gives me more time to finish my secret project, LOL no not really.

Your wheel shows real potential to learn from. Pictures are great, but i would suggest some experimenting. Not building the whole wheel but focus on how the piece that powers works.

Sometimes the bounce or return of the object that is propelling actually creates more force going in the opposite direction than expected. Some times the point on the wheel were you expect the COG of the weight to be acting on the wheel is different than expected. I don't need you to build a wheel to prove anything to me. As like the rest who have working wheels its all up to you to learn how to get their from where you are . :) Without building prototypes and feeling the wheel in your hands you will find you creative mind struggling with reality and until your hand feels the action your mind cannot create the next step.


Keep it up. i'm sure your closer than youv'e been


I sound crazy and irrational?

I really want to build this wheel, but I'm not to good with wood, I have tried it with carboard as I'm good with it but, it's not practical...


Weight E, F, A, B and C where stuck onto the wheel, weight D hung from a piece of string with a stopper behind it.
The wheel was then slightly tilted to the right and let go, as the wheel span to the right, weight D was lifted right around to the very top and slung off the stopper causing weight D to swing to the bottom of the wheel.

Conclusion:

If the wheel has the power to lift weight D on the outside of the wheel, then it will have a stronger effect with the stopper being near the centre of the wheel.
But, having a weight just dangle at the bottom is not enough to sustain motion as more weight will gather on the ascending side as the wheel revolves. If weight D can make it to stopper 6 from the release point, then the wheel has nearly achieved perpetual motion?

But there is one more catch;
Weight D has to make it to stopper 6 just before weight C is released, which means that the wheel has to revolve at just the right speed for weight D to make it to stopper 6 just before the release of weight C if this is achieved, then it should achieve perpetual motion.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 24, 2008, 08:37:50 PM
sound, not are.


and you should be able to build with cardboard. All of my wheels are working with cardboard. Use pennies, quarters as weights as the relationship will be very good to lead/ wood. Brass/wood or whatever you thought was used.

if not send me some CAD drawings and i'll throw them on the water jet with some plexi and we can throw it together really quick. I have lots of circles we can probably already use. I don't want your wheel. You need it to learn from it. But, if you think the only thing stopping you is the ability to work with wood then you might be mistaken. Your need/drive to want to create it is whats lacking. Otherwise you or anyone else would not use lack off......materials/money/time ETC as your excuses.

If you believe then find a way.  If you cannot find a way then you might not believe enough. Sorry but thats where i weigh in on the subject.

Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 24, 2008, 08:44:46 PM
sound, not are.


and you should be able to build with cardboard. All of my wheels are working with cardboard. Use pennies, quarters as weights as the relationship will be very good to lead/ wood. Brass/wood or whatever you thought was used.

if not send me some CAD drawings and i'll throw them on the water jet with some plexi and we can throw it together really quick. I have lots of circles we can probably already use. I don't want your wheel. You need it to learn from it. But, if you think the only thing stopping you is the ability to work with wood then you might be mistaken. Your need/drive to want to create it is whats lacking. Otherwise you or anyone else would not use lack off......materials/money/time ETC as your excuses.

If you believe then find a way.  If you cannot find a way then you might not believe enough. Sorry but thats where i weigh in on the subject.



P.S You may have missed my edit on the "Test on my Wheel" just above your post

I have tried with cardboard, my excitement over this wheel has gone alittle, it would start up again if I knew I could make it correctly lol

The pegs were hard to do, I made and attached them on, they were good but also flimsy which meant attaching them on with more string, I got tired and left it, then thought, Ill wait until I can get the material...
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 24, 2008, 09:03:38 PM
Sorry,

I may have misunderstood, if i can make one more small suggestion.

IMO its not just about getting more weights on one side. Their is only one way to do this. You must find a way for the weight to have more motive force on the wheel. Not just form 12 down to six. If you have the weight have force for more than 50% of the wheel then you will be much closer to the wheel always turning. Overweight is not necessarily the answer.

Stop trying to get the weight to go back up. Fucus on it exerting more energy. I don't mean just swinging past 6 oclock. I mean actually pushing past 6 oclock, relative to starting at 12. But it can start anywhere.


I am sorry if you misunderstood my admiration for your trying. keep up the good work. Your sharing helps others and is always appreciated by some.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 24, 2008, 09:47:25 PM
my bad, it was really late last night and I missed the boat.

good luck with your invention.


peace
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 24, 2008, 10:22:57 PM
Sorry,

I may have misunderstood, if i can make one more small suggestion.

IMO its not just about getting more weights on one side. Their is only one way to do this. You must find a way for the weight to have more motive force on the wheel. Not just form 12 down to six. If you have the weight have force for more than 50% of the wheel then you will be much closer to the wheel always turning. Overweight is not necessarily the answer.

Stop trying to get the weight to go back up. Fucus on it exerting more energy. I don't mean just swinging past 6 oclock. I mean actually pushing past 6 oclock, relative to starting at 12. But it can start anywhere.


I am sorry if you misunderstood my admiration for your trying. keep up the good work. Your sharing helps others and is always appreciated by some.

Well, I had an idea then, what if I removed weight F, so when the wheel turns, weight E can fall and hit the peg that weight F would of rested on, meaning, i would have to find a way of keeping one of the pegs in place alowing weight E to pass it, not a problem though...

Somthing tells me, without weight F it wont work...
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 25, 2008, 02:08:01 AM
Take a look at this;

To achieve "Perpetual Motion" we need a wheel that has a section where there is no weight at all times...

The white area of the wheel is where there is no weight
The grey area of the wheel is where there is weight
The black balls are weights
The White balls are where the weights would normally be

The below wheel turns (Clockwise)

If this can be achieved, then indeed we do have "Perpetual Motion"

Now, my wheel does in effect do part of this, weight E (according to the wheel below) does not exist on my wheel as it swings right past it, but unfortunately, it rests on weight F (according to the wheel below)

Now, this does not say that my wheel won?t work, but, it is against my wheel...

So in effect, weight D on my wheel is constantly swapping from weight D to F (according to the below wheel)

Ok, so I have eliminated weight E (according to the below wheel), the remaining question is this; how do I eliminate weight F (according to the wheel below)?

Even though weight E (according to the below wheel) has been removed, its at the cost of weight F (according to the below wheel) which is also the weight that has to be removed...


So I reckon that soon as the weight swings to its next position, something must happen to it, but what? I?m sure there is an answer somewhere, this wheel is like inches from perpetual motion (If it does not work already) I mean, to eliminate the bottom weight will cause the wheel to turn, but how effective will it be? I'm going to try and crack this final move, if anyone can think of something that happens to the weight once it has swung to its position, I would really appreciate your help :)
Thank you
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 25, 2008, 01:55:26 PM
very nice, but not sure which way it turns. I'll assume clockwise.

Yes you are correct if you can get your weights of your wheel it will be great. But i am confused on why you chose the white area where you did. In a perfectly weighted wheel like yours you would have to assume that the weights motion creates force starting at 12 oclock and ends imparting force at 6 oclock. Why you would want to take a weight of while it is still imparting force i am confused about.

if you want to take the weight of the wheel. IMO it would be best to do it just before it has to begin its new power stroke.


I hope i don't sound like the rest of the advice givers and trying to dictate what you do. I believe you should stay on the path that you are on. It will definately lead to some discovery on your part and that is always good. 

i tend to reverse engineer instead of invent or ty to discover.  By statrting with the working wheel (imagining one, not real) i think what it must have to do.


Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 25, 2008, 04:41:32 PM
Yes, that is very true, you could take the weight from just before the power stroke but, by having no weight in the white area on the circle, the wheel has to move clockwise (I have tested this) My wheel like i said has only eliminated weight E, weight F must also go, then we can think about the weights just before the stroke...

If you get a wheel, and set weights on it like this below wheel, then it will turn which ever way you push it, but by adding the extra weight D on the above wheel, then it will turn clockwise, that is why I have set the weights like this, then by removing weight E and F we have Perpetual Motion.

Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 25, 2008, 05:04:21 PM
Thanks for the insight, i sometimes wonder why noone else has done this and then i am reminded. Your thought process is great. Keep up the good work  ;D
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 25, 2008, 05:08:32 PM
Also, here is my wheel study

Weights at right angels (That Must Move) (Energy Rate: 1 - 5/Weak - Strong)
Single weights (That Must Move) (Energy Rate: 1 - 5/Weak - Strong)
Balanced weights (That Cannot Move)
Overbalanced wheels (That Must Move) (Energy Rate: 1 - 5/Weak - Strong)
Strength of Different Balances (Balance Rate 1 - 5/Unstable - Stable)

Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 25, 2008, 06:17:44 PM
Have you done these on a wheel ????
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 25, 2008, 10:10:45 PM
someone should try replicating this with working model 2d.

download your copy here:
http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/WM2D/download.php
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 25, 2008, 10:29:34 PM
Have you done these on a wheel ????

No, I know from looking at them...
Best to make sure though :)

Also, I am going to try that link, I will try to make my wheel on it, anyone eles who knows how to use the progam want to try too? Seen as I ahve never used it...

Edit: Ok, it says the file is corrupt, but I can use /NCRC command line.
Then it says Not Recomended

Whats this then?

P.S
1. I am going to try them on a wheel now
2. I have some wood for my wheel to start

Ok I have tried them all, I got only 1 wrong and one a little miss understood so, not bad for just drawing them and knowing from looking, I must admit though, after testing them, I now have learnt more from them, there are many different things here to learn, if you combined some of these, you will surely get perpetual motion, some of these swing the wheel thurther than you would think, so by aranging and combinding weights with some kind of movement out of these tests, you might find it...

Now, if I look at my wheel, and compare it with my tests/studies, I can finally get an answer as to weather it will truly work, if not, then I can look at my studies and work off my wheel and improve it, by the way, I am happy to share this with you all, you may test your wheels using this if you like :)

Ok I just tested my theory below to see if my wheel has a chance of working, the answer is yes, but only just, never the less, it should work...
Wheel A did over come wheel B through its already existing movement...
(Look below to see the test)

This is how I just tested to see if my wheel will work

The Theory/Test
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: utilitarian on March 26, 2008, 12:36:21 AM
Gravity wheels cannot work.  They are impossible.  Want to know why?  It's because the very weight you are trying to use to make the wheel spin must somehow be brought back up to the top of the wheel.  So there is nothing to gain, see?  Whatever kinetic energy the weight gives, it requires the exact same amount to convert back to potential energy (i.e. get back to the top of the wheel).

Ah, you say are going to use momentum and bla bla bla bla.  It won't work.  Just think about what I said above, and then you will realize that gravity wheels are hopeless.  Can't be done.  You are just playing with weights and levers, and we all know that leverage produces no excess energy.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 26, 2008, 01:04:29 AM
Gravity wheels cannot work.  They are impossible.  Want to know why?  It's because the very weight you are trying to use to make the wheel spin must somehow be brought back up to the top of the wheel.  So there is nothing to gain, see?  Whatever kinetic energy the weight gives, it requires the exact same amount to convert back to potential energy (i.e. get back to the top of the wheel).

Ah, you say are going to use momentum and bla bla bla bla.  It won't work.  Just think about what I said above, and then you will realize that gravity wheels are hopeless.  Can't be done.  You are just playing with weights and levers, and we all know that leverage produces no excess energy.

Well, if you think it's impossible, then what is your point in being here? I respect your comment, I understand what you are saying, It's like a pendulum, it does not swing quite as high as it started off,
if it did then perpetual motion would already exist, but it doesnt, meaning there is energy loss etc, but if that pendulum had another one placed at a right angle behind it, then it would swing higher than it started, so it is this that has to be put into a wheel, and kept, and the only way to keep it is by having some sort of movement...
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: utilitarian on March 26, 2008, 01:17:46 AM
Gravity wheels cannot work.  They are impossible.  Want to know why?  It's because the very weight you are trying to use to make the wheel spin must somehow be brought back up to the top of the wheel.  So there is nothing to gain, see?  Whatever kinetic energy the weight gives, it requires the exact same amount to convert back to potential energy (i.e. get back to the top of the wheel).

Ah, you say are going to use momentum and bla bla bla bla.  It won't work.  Just think about what I said above, and then you will realize that gravity wheels are hopeless.  Can't be done.  You are just playing with weights and levers, and we all know that leverage produces no excess energy.

Well, if you think it's impossible, then what is your point in being here? I respect your comment, I understand what you are saying, It's like a pendulum, it does not swing quite as high as it started off,
if it did then perpetual motion would already exist, but it doesnt, meaning there is energy loss etc, but if that pendulum had another one placed at a right angle behind it, then it would swing higher than it started, so it is this that has to be put into a wheel, and kept, and the only way to keep it is by having some sort of movement...

I hold out hope for free energy, but gravity wheels are a dead end.  I may be being overly blunt, but on the other hand, if what I say saves you or someone else hours or weeks or months of effort, then it was good for me to say it.

I admit I did not comprehend exactly what you said about the pendulums, but nothing to do with swinging or moving weights has any hope of working.  There is just no getting around the fact that every weight that drops must be lifted back up to the original position.  At best, all you can have is an initially unbalanced position which creates temporary movement.  And even this is not free.  You paid for it in advance by using your own energy to create the unbalanced position.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 26, 2008, 02:00:15 AM
Gravity wheels cannot work.  They are impossible.  Want to know why?  It's because the very weight you are trying to use to make the wheel spin must somehow be brought back up to the top of the wheel.  So there is nothing to gain, see?  Whatever kinetic energy the weight gives, it requires the exact same amount to convert back to potential energy (i.e. get back to the top of the wheel).

Ah, you say are going to use momentum and bla bla bla bla.  It won't work.  Just think about what I said above, and then you will realize that gravity wheels are hopeless.  Can't be done.  You are just playing with weights and levers, and we all know that leverage produces no excess energy.

Well, if you think it's impossible, then what is your point in being here? I respect your comment, I understand what you are saying, It's like a pendulum, it does not swing quite as high as it started off,
if it did then perpetual motion would already exist, but it doesnt, meaning there is energy loss etc, but if that pendulum had another one placed at a right angle behind it, then it would swing higher than it started, so it is this that has to be put into a wheel, and kept, and the only way to keep it is by having some sort of movement...

I hold out hope for free energy, but gravity wheels are a dead end.  I may be being overly blunt, but on the other hand, if what I say saves you or someone else hours or weeks or months of effort, then it was good for me to say it.

I admit I did not comprehend exactly what you said about the pendulums, but nothing to do with swinging or moving weights has any hope of working.  There is just no getting around the fact that every weight that drops must be lifted back up to the original position.  At best, all you can have is an initially unbalanced position which creates temporary movement.  And even this is not free.  You paid for it in advance by using your own energy to create the unbalanced position.

I agree with "You paid for it in advance by using your own energy to create the unbalanced position."
and also "if what I say saves you or someone else hours or weeks or months of effort, then it was good for me to say it."
You can't get something for nothing, as something has to be made first, but, i disagree with "but nothing to do with swinging or moving weights has any hope of working."
You need a weight to swing, to get past the part of where it is no use... so it may as well rise other than dangle at the bottom...
Also, when it the weight has swung, it has to rise, mind you, if it has less to rise, it must have less to fall... but the top weight takes care of that in my case...
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 26, 2008, 08:35:22 AM
i don't know what is wrong with the software. works for me and i haven't heard a complaint, your the first. maybe it's your pc i don't know.

oh and you should build this wheel right away and show us the result on video.


peace
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: sevich on March 26, 2008, 01:22:09 PM

Gravity wheels cannot work.  They are impossible.  Want to know why?  It's because the very weight you are trying to use to make the wheel spin must somehow be brought back up to the top of the wheel.  So there is nothing to gain, see?  Whatever kinetic energy the weight gives, it requires the exact same amount to convert back to potential energy (i.e. get back to the top of the wheel).

Ah, you say are going to use momentum and bla bla bla bla.  It won't work.  Just think about what I said above, and then you will realize that gravity wheels are hopeless.  Can't be done.  You are just playing with weights and levers, and we all know that leverage produces no excess energy.

I strenuously believe it does'nt require the same amount of energy to convert back to ptoential energy (i.e. get back to the top)

Gravity wheels can do work if one can break out of his/her own mindset.


Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 26, 2008, 01:59:36 PM
I wonder how many people have had the correct solution for the wheel only to come to a site like this and read a few of hte posts, Hundreds saying they have it and everyone should stop what they are doing, hundreds more saying everyone else is wrong. The irony of these sites. Do they hurt or help?

Alex should build his wheel, so should everyone, whatever your vice, whether it be  cigarettes, liqour ETC ETC, internet, sports. take that money and waste it on the search for perpetual/gravity wheel. There is hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on much worse things than being a creative person.

Maybe not having sports teams to live vicariously through, internet to waste hours surfing on and the rest of the things that have turned the planet into consumers of if other than protectors of it is what made it easier for Bessler and others create their inventions. Working with your hands and being desparate for something is whats needed for most.

Most importantly the need to ignore all others.

@alex

Whether your ideas works or not on paper is not the issue. What it does when you build it is the most important thing. Not whether or not it works but what you can learn from what it does.

If your in the NE USA then let me know, i'll build it for you one weekend if you stop by. I have many spare wheels that you can experiment with and learn a great deal in a very short time.


i'll lock up the finished one. LOL  ;)
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: utilitarian on March 26, 2008, 04:08:29 PM
I wonder how many people have had the correct solution for the wheel. . .

Zero.  Look, I agree that it is good to do things, and clearly you can learn this way.  But maybe we could build things that have a shot at working, like a backyard deck or something.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Dgraphic911 on March 26, 2008, 04:15:35 PM
i built my house, then the deck and then several cars from scratch, I'm running out of things to build that work. Why not work on something that won't.

i just don't have the talent to cure disease, or the tools. so i figured PM would be setting my goals just high enought to keep the ball in sight. LOL
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 26, 2008, 05:18:36 PM
I now have the wood to start my wheel, I'm English by the way :)
Anyway, I will cut my wheel out, cut out a rim and bend it using boiling water, then that's the first step done...

By the way, I have come up with a new thing; I call it ?GPRM? or ?Gravity Powered Release Mechanisms? I have a few ways to release a weight at anytime I choose when moving on a wheel.

(Pic will be posted soon)
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: SeanTheLight on March 26, 2008, 06:06:51 PM
*thumbs up*

Very clever manipulation of energy in that design. Inner pegs are reducing the effect of spring/weight on the wheel by placing a fulcrum right near the axle. When the weight falls, it hangs loose between the inner pegs, but hangs firmly on the outer locking mechanism (also clever IMO). All downward force is applied to the diameter. As 6 o'clock is passed, the spring/weight hang vertically, wheel continues to spin, catching the spring with the inner peg, reducing the force required to -rotate the base of the spring-. You would need to use a fairly stiff spring to get that "whip back" effect where the weight catches vertical again at 12 o'clock, which reduces the advantage to be gained by moving the weight perpendicular to the force. (horizontal compared to the axle, leverage).

I believe I may have a slight misunderstanding of the design, particularly on the up mechanism, but I say build it. I would simulate it in working model, but that program has proven less than reliable for calculations regarding any device which outputs ANY energy....If you'd still like to see it simulated in working model, get in touch with me......

Seanthelight@gmail.com
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 26, 2008, 07:01:10 PM
Sean please build this with working model 2d, i know i'd like to see. it just might work.


peace
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: SeanTheLight on March 26, 2008, 07:31:22 PM
I'm starting on my wm2d reproduction now. If I need help with the design, I will ask questions here.

-edit- actually I already see a problem potentially.

There are 8 "gaps" for springs to hang through, but only 6 weights in the drawing. Am i to assume the wheel is meant to have 8 spring/weights, or is this gap intentional? (may I add that if it is intentional, it seems the design would eventually stop with the gap facing up)
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 26, 2008, 09:54:09 PM
i suggest trying with 6 and 8. then post results here. thanks in advanced. :)


peace
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 26, 2008, 10:39:21 PM
*thumbs up*

Very clever manipulation of energy in that design. Inner pegs are reducing the effect of spring/weight on the wheel by placing a fulcrum right near the axle. When the weight falls, it hangs loose between the inner pegs, but hangs firmly on the outer locking mechanism (also clever IMO). All downward force is applied to the diameter. As 6 o'clock is passed, the spring/weight hang vertically, wheel continues to spin, catching the spring with the inner peg, reducing the force required to -rotate the base of the spring-. You would need to use a fairly stiff spring to get that "whip back" effect where the weight catches vertical again at 12 o'clock, which reduces the advantage to be gained by moving the weight perpendicular to the force. (horizontal compared to the axle, leverage).

I believe I may have a slight misunderstanding of the design, particularly on the up mechanism, but I say build it. I would simulate it in working model, but that program has proven less than reliable for calculations regarding any device which outputs ANY energy....If you'd still like to see it simulated in working model, get in touch with me......

Seanthelight@gmail.com

SeanTheLight
Yes, I would like to see a model, thats very good of you :)
I have now drawn out using a compass two large circles in wood, I will split them up into 8 sections then cut them out.

Also, there is no weight at the 6 o clock position, as the weight has swing straight past it...
Also, there are only 6 weights, as long as that weight swings, the position will not fail...
8 weights would cause the wheel to balance, my wheel drawing is correctly drawn :)
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: AB Hammer on March 27, 2008, 01:34:32 AM
Greetings Alex

 I have finished my evaluation of your wheel, and since you posted it open source I am writing open source. I see a non runner due to these problems that you need to look at.

 Your stops will have a bad centrifugal problem if running, they would plant at the edge. If weighted they would work as a counter balance due to to much weight on the ascending side in their most outward position. The other problem you will keel and all your weights will stay at the bottom. Leaf springs not coiled springs to have control and not have a wild flinging spring. The key is control, without it you only have pop art. There is a bit more to look at, but you need to address these problems first.

Good luck on your quest.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 27, 2008, 01:55:22 AM
Sean if it's not too much to ask could you please also try this wheel (http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/GravityMotors/photos/index.html) with working model 2d please. Thanks :)




peace
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: PulsedPower on March 27, 2008, 05:43:30 AM
Quote
It keeps 4 weights on the right and two on the left, so it's 4 verses 2, well, that has to move, and in order to keep it moving, the bottom weight swings, read the description just incase you don?t understand its workings..


Sorry I did not notice the missing weights at positions E and F.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 27, 2008, 12:14:21 PM
Greetings Alex

 I have finished my evaluation of your wheel, and since you posted it open source I am writing open source. I see a non runner due to these problems that you need to look at.

 Your stops will have a bad centrifugal problem if running, they would plant at the edge. If weighted they would work as a counter balance due to to much weight on the ascending side in their most outward position. The other problem you will keel and all your weights will stay at the bottom. Leaf springs not coiled springs to have control and not have a wild flinging spring. The key is control, without it you only have pop art. There is a bit more to look at, but you need to address these problems first.

Good luck on your quest.

Hey AB :) Nice to see you

Well, I have found some better ways to release the weights, also I cant let the wheel go to fast or the swinging weights will not make it to the stoppers and like you said, the weights will collect at the bottom, that's why I need to keep the wheel at a steady speed, also about the springs, so I need to use leaf springs? What sizes to they sell them? I have started on my wheel, very slow but sure, I am going to split them up into 8 sections, then cut them out, I don't know when i will be putting them rim on, soon hopefully...

Also, my wheel is;
Wheel
Radius: 30 cm
Diameter: 60 cm

So whats the best length for a spring not forgetting the wheel needs room for the pegs...

This is how I plan to build my wheel
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: AB Hammer on March 28, 2008, 02:37:05 AM
OK Alex

 lets look a little tighter. The spring length will depend on the flex for to determine length. You want it to be just enough to hold, but the more flexible it is you want a stronger hold, so it will have to be longer to keep it from slipping off prematurely. Now lest look at the swing. We need it to be able to accelerates faster than the wheel turns. Now the drop will not allow it to be fast enough so maybe an added heavy weight closer to the axle to put the pressure on for the release, or some form of shifting unit. This is to remind you that the release weight is still swinging in the same direction trying to go faster than the wheel. In this case study Newton's law. 
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 29, 2008, 01:36:20 PM
OK Alex

 lets look a little tighter. The spring length will depend on the flex for to determine length. You want it to be just enough to hold, but the more flexible it is you want a stronger hold, so it will have to be longer to keep it from slipping off prematurely. Now lest look at the swing. We need it to be able to accelerates faster than the wheel turns. Now the drop will not allow it to be fast enough so maybe an added heavy weight closer to the axle to put the pressure on for the release, or some form of shifting unit. This is to remind you that the release weight is still swinging in the same direction trying to go faster than the wheel. In this case study Newton's law. 


Couldn't I just keep the wheel moving slowly then when the weight is released it will go faster because gravity will pull on it? Say the wheel was revolving quite slowly, because you have put some device to keep it at a steady speed, when the weight swings, it just like holding up a pendulum and letting it go, that wont go slowly, there is nothing to stop it, so it will make it to the stopper, am I correct?

Also, with the wheel already moving slowly, wont that add to the speed of the swing?
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: AB Hammer on March 31, 2008, 04:34:53 PM
If you do this, the best you could hope for is a clock motor or just a novelty toy if you can get it to work at all. You need it to be strong and as fast a possible (with in reason). So what I suggest is to design about 10 and then try to figure out why they will not work, and then see what it will take to make them work. This should help you in your designing.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: bluesgtr44 on March 31, 2008, 06:04:08 PM
OK Alex

 lets look a little tighter. The spring length will depend on the flex for to determine length. You want it to be just enough to hold, but the more flexible it is you want a stronger hold, so it will have to be longer to keep it from slipping off prematurely. Now lest look at the swing. We need it to be able to accelerates faster than the wheel turns. Now the drop will not allow it to be fast enough so maybe an added heavy weight closer to the axle to put the pressure on for the release, or some form of shifting unit. This is to remind you that the release weight is still swinging in the same direction trying to go faster than the wheel. In this case study Newton's law. 


Couldn't I just keep the wheel moving slowly then when the weight is released it will go faster because gravity will pull on it? Say the wheel was revolving quite slowly, because you have put some device to keep it at a steady speed, when the weight swings, it just like holding up a pendulum and letting it go, that wont go slowly, there is nothing to stop it, so it will make it to the stopper, am I correct?

Also, with the wheel already moving slowly, wont that add to the speed of the swing?

Alex, you can add a friction device to the bearings to control the speed or you could attach it to a flywheel device and use reducing gears/sprockets. If your device stands any chance, it will have to be controlled so the reaction forces don't kick your butt.

In this case, I would suggest using a flywheel set-up....as far as the speed of the swing? That is going to be tricky and the points of release and catch will be also. I might would suggest trying to find an old ten speed bicycle sprocket to use....this would give you some options on reduction ratios.....


Steve
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: AB Hammer on March 31, 2008, 07:45:26 PM
Good suggestion Steve

 But I don't think that will be the answer. I have found that Alex has a very good eye and a good imagination, and I don't want him to burn out or become over compulsive, or following to many other ideas. I am posting this statements openly to let him know that he needs to learn the effects of his test for that will allow him a clearer understanding and he will be able to think more clearly about what he is designing. If he was in visiting distance, he would be welcome to work with me, so he could learn how to build and fabricate the parts needed, and as well use the test wheels bases I have as well. He has a fire in his heart and it does not need to get out of control and burn him out.
Title: Re: Perpetual Motion Wheel Design (Quite Simple)
Post by: Alexioco on March 31, 2008, 11:16:37 PM
Yeah :P, sometimes I look for others ways, and never finish my older projects, I would really like to work and learn from you, I am English, so we are quite a distance  :-\
Also, I like the idea about (adding a friction device to the bearings to control the speed or attach it to a flywheel device and use reducing gears/sprockets) and (find an old ten speed bicycle sprocket to use....this would give you some options on reduction ratios.....) that's great, then my wheel would go slow enough for the weights to swing and catch the stopper.

P.S, Thanks for the compliments  ;D