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Author Topic: Kicks explained  (Read 45634 times)

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2008, 12:48:05 AM »
Hmm - there is that same reference to 250,000 in this patent as the Gary V's account of Tesla's discovery of magnification and RE.

Perhaps there is a connection.

Offline sparks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2008, 01:29:21 AM »
erfinder

 The patent you reference is exactly what I was talking about when I said Tesla would use a bifilar wound coil as a capacitor.  He series connected the bifilar elements so that a greater potential would exist in adjacent turns of the bifilar winding.    Series not parallel.  I studied this patent at least a month ago when I was researching bifilar windings.  Wikepedia has a picture of Tesla's coil on their page. 
  Parallel bifilar windings will create a magnetic addition of fields which will precede the electron current flow in unengerized coils. 
  @ Grumpy
       
        The magnetic field expanding from energized coils should be alot stronger than any capacitance coupling of the unenergized coils.

     

Offline poynt99

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2008, 01:48:42 AM »

Parallel bifilar windings will create a magnetic addition of fields which will precede the electron current flow in unengerized coils. 
 

not criticizing, just asking..where did you get this from?

Offline sparks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2008, 02:47:12 AM »
   Tesla is describing building in capacitance in his coils so they will have a match without the use of external capacitors.  As he describes the coils  construction he says "the energy stored in the coil will now be two-hundred and fifty thousand as great"   STORED
   I don't think we want to store the energy in the kick coil.  Maybe we do. I was thinking more along the lines of dropping a magnetic field in the space between the collector and the kick winding.
  @poynt

      Wikepedia subject bifilar windings at least the part about adding magnetic fields.  The magnetic field would therefore increase in diameter around the coil bifilar turns and get to the unenergized turn before the actual electron migration.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2008, 03:40:35 AM »

@poynt

      Wikepedia subject bifilar windings at least the part about adding magnetic fields.  The magnetic field would therefore increase in diameter around the coil bifilar turns and get to the unenergized turn before the actual electron migration.
i think the term they use at wikipedia "multiplied" should read "summed". if this is correct, then two magnetic fields side by side and in phase will simply add. the magnetic field strength is directly related to the current, and in a linear fashion (assuming no saturation).

what speed does magnetic flux travel? if it is the speed of light, then i guess conceivably the field could reach the next winding before the electron flow does.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2008, 05:51:06 AM »
In an effort to be deliberately vague, I would venture a guess that Tesla didn't use this sort of coil for a stronger m agnetic field.  For this he could have just used more layers like a conventional solenoid.   Nope, he had something else in mind. 

He would hit this coil with an impulse and what went in was not the same as what came out.

Going further into the realm of speculation, Tesla speaks of th is arrangement in the Colorado Notes as a means for storing energy - to me this means he was compressing - compressing the energy of the impulse to some rediculous level rarely encontered - venture further intot he rabbit hole, if self-induction exudes energy, self-copacitance must absorb it - and then he would release it and all hell would break loose in the excited coil.

So, by a clever arrangment of wire, Tesla achieved an unimaginable level of energy compression.


Offline sparks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2008, 06:16:46 AM »
   @Grumpy

    I'll go down the rabbit hole with ya.  Say you hit the coil with some high freq.
As much as a motorized spark gap can give you.  The coil takes every wave and holds on to it no radiation.  No resonating just keep pumping it in. Until you see little corona discharges from turn to turn.  You got yourself one hell of a capacitor at this point.  What do you do next?

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2008, 06:43:50 AM »
   @Grumpy

    I'll go down the rabbit hole with ya.  Say you hit the coil with some high freq.
As much as a motorized spark gap can give you.  The coil takes every wave and holds on to it no radiation.  No resonating just keep pumping it in. Until you see little corona discharges from turn to turn.  You got yourself one hell of a capacitor at this point.  What do you do next?

You ranalogy is not exact, as the energy we speak of is dynamic at this point, but moving forward for the good of all, you take this compressed energy and like a hammer, you hit a coil with high self-induction and absolutely minumal self-capacitance.  The means a coil that has a diameter equal to the height - one layer solenoid - spacing included in height - for the quick rule of thumb.  Self-capacitance will restrict the effect - as this energy is released in this coil there is a magnification of the input energy due to the self-inductance that "defies analysis" - because we lack the understanding of this to apply math to it .  Dollard applied much of Steinmetz' knowledge to this and still came up short.


Offline sparks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2008, 02:11:01 PM »
@Grumpy

     I think the coil the one with high self-capacitance would be capable of forming a resonate circuit in and of itself.  The energy therefore is fluctutating between current and capacitance within the coil field itself.  Dynamic. 
  So any energy input gets caught so to speak in the coil and compressed into the resonating field.  Now if this coil is also a collector or receiver antennae oh boy you have the whole shooting match with just one coil.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2008, 02:56:28 PM »
I'm going to crush a misconception:

Everyone that hears the name "Tesla" clings to "resonance" as the explanation to everything.  It isn't.  Tesla used other means besides resonance.  He even went so far in an interview to state that while you could build up energy with resonance, that is is easier to use a few turns in a secondary.

When Richard Hull describes the Tesla Magnifier, which he and his group persued for the purpose of maximum spark length, he states that the MT is not resonant and that all the 1/4 wave stuff does not apply.

Travel back in history to the time when they use "shock excited" circuits and you see that the frequency of the working circuit is not the same as the exciting cirucit and the two - while coupled - are indepenedent.

So, back to the subject in question, we take this freaking huge spike of energy that we have modified (the term "stored" isn't wuite right for such a temporary storage) in the secondary, which has high-selfcapacitance, and use this "Hammer of Thor" to ring the coil that has the high self--inductance.  This is still rather analogous since te coil is not a bell, but is a combination of conductor and dielectric.  "Bell" is easier to grasp.

Offline sparks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2008, 04:54:34 PM »
   I think that if you have a coil of high self-inductance and wrap it around a secondary coil.  Just a couple of turns the magnetic field moves axially across the primary coil at high speed. Especially if the primary coils interior is magnetically saturated by the secondary winding.  This results in alot more transfer of energy than using an iron core and wasting time and energy screwing around with magnetic domains of the iron.  The magnetic field of each turn acts as the primary for the next turn and the induced voltage of the secondary turn generates a magnetic response and becomes the primary for the next unenergized turn. This results in an axial flow of magnetism that I would suspect is pretty damn quick. Your secondary turns are experiencing a fast moving magnetic field and respond according to ampere's law. 

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2008, 04:56:00 PM »
That patent was in 1886.  It was by no means the "final word" regarding Tesla's work.  Tesla went beyond the two-coil - loosely coupled - resonant-rise type of system.

-----------------------------------

To quote Richard Hull in his article on his work with the Tesla Magnifier:
http://www.stargazing.net/Astroman/Magnifier.html

"There is much in his (Tesla's colorado Springs Notes) notes that becomes manifest only upon experimentation."



Offline wattsup

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2008, 06:06:10 PM »
@Erfinder

Let me just vulgarize this subject to my grade 1 level.

So perfect resonance is perfect balance.

As an analogy, if I took a 10 pound steel ball and balanced it on the tip of a nail so it will stand still, this could also be considered perfect resonance even though it is perfectly still. If the ball tips more to one side, that side will have to exert counter force to hold it unbalanced wasting energy. At the same time from the other side of this unbalanced condition, you will have to pull back somewhat to not unbalance the ball even further, so again from the other side there is an ineffecient use of energy. When the ball is in balance, it requires minimal energy to keep it balanced.

So under resonance, the energy feeding the circuit is equal to the energy leaving the circuit making the medium of transformation as transparent as possible to other adverse conditions. So resonance = maximum effeciency = perfect balance.

According to my observations and trials, I have come to the conclusion that to achieve resonance is like when we do water treatment. We let the water analysis decide the treatment. What I mean is when you make a circuit with a predetermined anticipated end result, you will struggle indefinitely because the end results will most likeley not be what you hoped for. So you push more power, but something gets hot, or you increase the pulsation, but amperage goes down. The fact is, any circuit that runs at resonance is at its maximum performance. If this maximum performance is not what is required, then changes to the circuit should be considered and not only changes to its operational parameters.

Teslas devices in the material sense are well balanced. Copper weight ratios. Wire length ratios, induction to capacitance ratios, etc. If the physical components are well matched, then the resonance performance will produce the results you had anticipated. So the components themselves will decide the resonance they need to be in balance.

Offline aleks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2008, 07:45:14 PM »
One thing you are seemingly forgetting about Tesla is that he was a venture capitalist. His capital were his patents. Why the hell in the world he would work on Niagara power plant if he had a source of free abundant electricity? Why not just manufacture and sell power devices that do the job? The answer is far simpler: Tesla had no convenient free energy source like SM TPU, for example. Tesla dreamed of power transmissions over distance, there is even no certainity about Wardenclyffe being a generator. It could have been just a transmitter without power generation. Probably there is little sense in using Tesla's terminology and approaches in this TPU area. Well, while TPU devices and Tesla's patents are similar and probably produced some similar performance, I do not see a motivation to produce free energy behind Tesla's work. He had good designs, but they were used to bounce potential-kinetic EM energies around in a most efficient way. Well, he did find some anomalous things, but his own reports on that are not publicly available.

On the resonance thing. When several objects or particles are at kinetic resonance, they share energy and thus they become a whole meaning every single object you add multiplies the overall effect (the capacity and thus the potential energy storage represented by the system).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 08:26:26 PM by aleks »

Offline sparks

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Re: Kicks explained
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2008, 09:09:09 PM »
   
      I look at resonance as something happening that will cause it to happen again in the future.
Time travel without a whole bunch of energy input.
      If you look at Tesla's energy transmitter he uses a similar pancake coil but I believe it is configured differently.  He doesn't want to store any energy he wants to transmit it.  The pancake coil is wrapped with one or two coils around it's outer circumference making the primary.  This he pulses at the frequency he wants for the carrier which is also the signal.  But this primary  coil is just to get the magnetic field to flow across the first few outer turns.  This is a coil of high selfinductance.  The magnetic field compressing as it travels towards the inside of the coil.  This results in more and more amplitude in each successive turn the increasing magnetic flux crosses.  By the time you get to the turn that is in the center the voltage could be in the 100's of thousands.  Same frequency at higher amplitude by the time it reaches the last coil which is attached to the ballon.  This defies no laws of energy conservation.  It appears to be a method of grabbing energy and bringing it forward in time.