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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: AbbaRue on March 05, 2008, 06:19:14 AM

Title: Patent Laws
Post by: AbbaRue on March 05, 2008, 06:19:14 AM
Hello Everyone:
I have some questions about Patent Laws I hope someone on this forum can answer.
The best way to ask these questions is with a hypothetical situation.

Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device: 
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?
2) Could I legally include that patent in a book I have written for sale?
3) Could I place the components that make up that device in a kit you assemble yourself and sell that kit?
4) How long is a patent valid before it can be copied by others, free of legal problems?

I think the answer to these questions could be helpful to others.
I did build a device from a patent, and was considering posting my findings, but I reconsidered doing so because I don't want to get into any legal difficulties. 
I have always thought a patent could be copied by anyone for test purposes as long as you don't seek to make money from it.
But perhaps to do so requires the patent holders permission.

Thanks in advance Harold. 



Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: shruggedatlas on March 05, 2008, 06:31:16 AM
Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device: 
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?
2) Could I legally include that patent in a book I have written for sale?
3) Could I place the components that make up that device in a kit you assemble yourself and sell that kit?
4) How long is a patent valid before it can be copied by others, free of legal problems?

In the U.S., the answers are:

1. No
2. No, not for what you are intending.  It sounds like you are making an instruction manual to sell.  That would constitute indirect infringement.
3. No.  Again - indirect infringement.
4. 20 years after date of filing, I believe.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: one on March 05, 2008, 07:47:00 AM
Hello Everyone:
I have some questions about Patent Laws I hope someone on this forum can answer.
The best way to ask these questions is with a hypothetical situation.

Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device: 
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?
2) Could I legally include that patent in a book I have written for sale?
3) Could I place the components that make up that device in a kit you assemble yourself and sell that kit?
4) How long is a patent valid before it can be copied by others, free of legal problems?

I think the answer to these questions could be helpful to others.
I did build a device from a patent, and was considering posting my findings, but I reconsidered doing so because I don't want to get into any legal difficulties. 
I have always thought a patent could be copied by anyone for test purposes as long as you don't seek to make money from it.
But perhaps to do so requires the patent holders permission.

Thanks in advance Harold. 


I  don't  know  the  exact laws but I know  that  alot of companies get around  pattents  by studyng  them long enough to find a way to make them   better ,
 Once you   can improve   the  idea if you  believe that  patents  of  over unity  devices  are a good idea you  could apply  for a patent  on your improvements,   in effect  the  original  idea  and your   improvement are now  yours.
You  can    list   the original   patent  as " prior  art "  when  showing your  improvements . 

The  relative ease that   a patent can  be   bypassed by  making a change or 2 is one of the reasons that  I don't  think  patents are a good idea for  OU devices .


gary



Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: PulsedPower on March 05, 2008, 08:55:26 AM
You can do whatever you like if you are not in the country where the patent is issued.  You cannot sell or take your product into the country where the patent is issued without running the risk of the patent holder suing you if they find out that you have used a similar idea to the one they patented.

Getting a patent is no guarantee the the device even works.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: argona369 on March 05, 2008, 06:14:02 PM
Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device: 
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?

1. No

Seriously?  You can?t even reproduce it
to see how it works?
what about Canada?
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: shruggedatlas on March 06, 2008, 09:22:24 PM

Seriously?  You can?t even reproduce it
to see how it works?
what about Canada?

I don't think you can, not in the U.S.  Have no idea about Canada.  However, let's be realistic.  If you do it at home and do not tell anyone, how's anyone going to find out.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: argona369 on March 07, 2008, 02:07:36 PM
Hi Shruggedatlas

Well that?s not really the problem I was thinking about.
Say I came up with something, posted enough information for someone else to patent it.
Would they then, as the patent holder,
 be able to tell me to stop all research and even hand over all materials and prototypes.

In other words , I don?t feel i should share anything that I come up with
anymore.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: ken_nyus on March 07, 2008, 03:35:16 PM
I was under the impression in the US you could build a single copy for your own use, this is not true?

Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: capthook on March 07, 2008, 07:26:44 PM
be able to tell me to stop all research and even hand over all materials and prototypes.

My opinion:

Patents serve a primary purpose of protecting the inventor from unlicensed sales of the device/components so as to offer a means to recoup the inventors investment in development and reward the ingenuity.

A secondary purpose is to advance technology.  Many patents make reference to existing patents - basically improving on the design/function of the original device, or incorporate components of it into a new device.  A separate inventor couldn't possibly make those improvements without building the original device.  This is one of the reasons a patent is so detailed and includes drawings - so that it can be reproduced. (as well as showing in detail what is claimed to be protected)

So - you can certainly build it - test it - redesign it - experiment with it.  You just can sell it (the patented device) or it's components (legally).
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: AbbaRue on March 10, 2008, 09:42:20 AM
Well there certainly are a lot of opinions on this subject. 
I hope someone with legal background lets us know for sure.
The device I tried to duplicate was invented in Canada and I live in Canada as well,
but the inventer only applied for a USA patent as far as I know.
Of coarse the version I built only remotely resembles the original device and probably could be filed as a different patent.


Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: capthook on March 10, 2008, 10:05:40 AM
http://www.uspto.gov/go/pac/doc/general/#nature

"Nature of Patent and Patent Rights
The patent is issued in the name of the United States under the seal of the United States Patent and Trademark Office, and is either signed by the Director of the USPTO or is electronically written thereon and attested by an Office official. The patent contains a grant to the patentee, and a printed copy of the specification and drawing is annexed to the patent and forms a part of it. The grant confers ?the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States? and its territories and possessions for which the term of the patent shall be generally 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application under 35 U.S.C. 120, 121 or 365(c), from the date of the earliest such application was filed, and subject to the payment of maintenance fees as provided by law. "
"Once a patent is issued, the patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO"

And if a patent is not issued in YOUR country - there is nothing to enforce (within your country)  Even a WIPO ( http://www.wipo.int/portal/index.html.en ) requires a filing in EACH country you wish to have patent protection.

And even if so - if you are tinkering in your basement - extremely doubtful someones going to spend $$$ on litigation to stop you.... the "spirit" of the law is to prevent selling it....
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: AbbaRue on March 11, 2008, 08:35:41 AM
Thanks again:
Here is a link to some interesting new energy collection devices,
referred to as Aetherometric Technologies.
 
http://www.aetherenergy.com/index.html


The Correas have quite a few patents already, check them out.
Maybe someone may even want to start a new section just focused on these ideas.

 
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: shruggedatlas on March 11, 2008, 05:30:47 PM
Hi Shruggedatlas

Well that?s not really the problem I was thinking about.
Say I came up with something, posted enough information for someone else to patent it.
Would they then, as the patent holder,
 be able to tell me to stop all research and even hand over all materials and prototypes.

In other words , I don?t feel i should share anything that I come up with
anymore.


That is a real danger, it's true.  Now you would have a defense that you did publish the plans for it first.  But with the timing being so close, and things on the web having a habit of dissappearing, the danger is very real that you could be locked out of your own invention.

In the end, you have to have some faith in the open source community.  Lots of people extend this level of faith and good things come from it, so you should examine and see if you are perhaps a little too paranoid. 

Also, the patent process is not cheap, so people just don't patent things willy-nilly.  People don't just scour the web and snap up ideas en masse and patent them, like they snap up domain names.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: capthook on March 11, 2008, 09:21:21 PM
Also, the patent process is not cheap, so people just don't patent things willy-nilly.  People don't just scour the web and snap up ideas en masse and patent them, like they snap up domain names.

Actually - a patent is relatively inexpensive.  The larger costs are for the patent lawyer you employ and the maintenance fees once granted.  Doing the application yourself can eliminate the large lawyer fees but they can be very helpful in drafting your claims and dealing with the Patent Office processes so it isn't recommended unless you have experience in these matters.

Also - a preliminary patent ("patent pending") can be filed for $100.  This then gives you 12 months to fully develop the device/examine the market before filing for a full patent.  This provides a "date/idea of invention" to contest you made it first - but the patent expiration date (usually 20 years) will use the full application.
$100 well spent - alot of bang for your buck!

If the owner of the invention qualifies as a small entity (e.g., independent inventor, a small business, or a nonprofit organization), the filing, issue and maintenance fees are reduced by half.

Application Fees: (for a small entity)
Filing:             $155
Claims:            $105
Search:           $255
Examination    $105
SubTotal:         $620    (due with filing)

Issuance Fee:  $720  (due if patent is granted)

Total Cost:         $1340

Maintenance Fees:  (small entity)
4 yr:      $465
8 yr:      $1180
12 yr:      $1955

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2007september30_2007dec17.htm

(And yes - there are "Patent wharehouse" companies that aquire then litigate as many Patents as possible. As shown - the actual Patent costs are low - and the litigation return can be high.  Also - many companies patent every little thing they possibly can - think IBM, Intel etc)

CH
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: hartiberlin on March 11, 2008, 11:10:03 PM
Patents in my view are just useless unless you have a big corporation behind you
or can sell it to a big corporation that will defend your patent in court.

All other inventors can just improve on your patent with 2 or 3 new ideas
not covered in your patent and then they will get this "better" patent.
If you then don?t have a big corporation behind you that will
battle in court against this "better" patent you are lost...

So for the small inventor patents do not bring any value at all in my view.

Also for our cause over here we better go with open source as
it will bring the small inventor much more fame and money via
public relations and advertisement offers, etc...

So you don?t need to sell anything, if you have a working prototype
which will put out free energy.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: one on March 12, 2008, 12:15:07 AM
Quote

Application Fees: (for a small entity)
Filing:             $155
Claims:            $105
Search:           $255
Examination    $105
SubTotal:         $620    (due with filing)

Issuance Fee:  $720  (due if patent is granted)

Total Cost:         $1340

Maintenance Fees:  (small entity)
4 yr:      $465
8 yr:      $1180
12 yr:      $1955



These might  be all the fees in theory  .........but how  often  does it work that easy ?

In reality  the patent  office is another level of supression.

If  you invent a new kind  of widget or thingamabob    these  costs  should apply .

If  you  invent a new  OU device   you  can be sure that they will not apply .

The patent  office does not   patent anything that  may be  classified  as perpetual motion. 

In  my opinion  it  will take a very  good patent  layer to  find a way to sneak through the prosess without  raising any  red flags .


Of cpourse  if you  do manage to get  it through the prosess .  There is another layer of supression waiting .

The military  has  people that  review  patents   before they  are issued .
If   one of these people  recognise   a possable military  advantage   in   your  application   they  have the  ability to classify it .      From  that point on   if you try to make  money  from it or even talk about it  you  can be locked  up for treason..

Of course any  OU  device  would  give  any   country a big  advantage in time of war IF they can keep that knowledge  to themselves .
Because of this  I  can't see  ANY  country  willingly  releasing   any  OU  informtion that they may have.

The  only way that it can  come out  is  if the little people do it...........and if it is known internationaly

If  you   put  OU in the hands  of  the little guy .......for the most part he  will use it  to improve his own life.

If you put  it in the hands  of big business . .... they will use it  to  make greater  profits  ....... there  will be  little  or no  chance of them sharing  this knowledge .

If you   put  OU in the hands of the goverment  ...... it will end up  being  used for war .



I am  voting for the little guy .


:)

 
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: AbbaRue on March 12, 2008, 06:24:04 AM
Say someone on this forum invented a free energy device that really worked well and was easy to duplicate.
Say they shared it with everyone on this forum and didn't file for a patent on it.
I fear someone might steal the idea, file a patent on it, and prevent anyone else on this forum from utilizing it.
There must be a way to prevent this from happening.
Now if the inventor filed a patent and then shared it with everyone on this forum, then he/she could prevent this from happening.

So from this perspective getting a patent would be very wise, just so no one can prevent everyone here from using it.
And if someone were to go through the trouble of doing so, I think all of use should help that person regain their money.
At least all that use the invention.



Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: capthook on March 12, 2008, 08:40:20 AM
Hey Abba -

You seem interested in Patents.  You should spend a few hours/days on the USPTO site educating yourself - I think you will find it interesting and rewarding.

From the USPTO in regards to your last post:
- - -
"If the invention has been described in a printed publication anywhere in the world, or if it was known or used by others in this country before the date that the applicant made his/her invention, a patent cannot be obtained. If the invention has been described in a printed publication anywhere, or has been in public use or on sale in this country more than one year before the date on which an application for patent is filed in this country, a patent cannot be obtained. In this connection it is immaterial when the invention was made, or whether the printed publication or public use was by the inventor himself/herself or by someone else. If the inventor describes the invention in a printed publication or uses the invention publicly, or places it on sale, he/she must apply for a patent before one year has gone by, otherwise any right to a patent will be lost. The inventor must file on the date of public use or disclosure, however, in order to preserve patent rights in many foreign countries.

Even if the subject matter sought to be patented is not exactly shown by the prior art, and involves one or more differences over the most nearly similar thing already known, a patent may still be refused if the differences would be obvious. The subject matter sought to be patented must be sufficiently different from what has been used or described before that it may be said to be nonobvious to a person having ordinary skill in the area of technology related to the invention. For example, the substitution of one color for another, or changes in size, are ordinarily not patentable. "

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#whatpat
- - -

CH
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: klicUK on March 12, 2008, 12:01:42 PM
Surely the scary thing is what happens if you "re-invent" a device.

If you publish details of how to replicate what you believe is your own invention as an open-source project, and it turns out that somewhere in the archives there is a patent that describes pretty much the same idea, then you have unknowingly infringed that patent and by the sound of it, you are liable to prosecution.

Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: shruggedatlas on March 12, 2008, 08:38:05 PM
Surely the scary thing is what happens if you "re-invent" a device.

If you publish details of how to replicate what you believe is your own invention as an open-source project, and it turns out that somewhere in the archives there is a patent that describes pretty much the same idea, then you have unknowingly infringed that patent and by the sound of it, you are liable to prosecution.

That is not very scary.  All you are going to get is a cease and desist notice, which you should obey, and then everything will probably be fine.  Lawsuits generally only happen when there are sales of the infringing device.
Title: Re: Patent Laws
Post by: lancaIV on March 13, 2008, 01:49:16 AM
TRIZ is a neuro-logical program to learn to become creative;
the TRIZ-Mentor,Mr. Altschuller, did research the global patent sources and concluded that more/less
95% of all human problem solutions are publicated !
For  problem defining/analyzing  and  solution execution he,Mr. Altschuller, envolved a Matrix with
35 Parameters.

The problem with patents is that the objekt can be different known than in conventional manner:
a wheel could be known , as patent theme "vehicle disc" or "road equipment", so that somebody
with only commercial interests would have to spent many hours of time for search or many money
to let search by a professional archive detective, without guarantee that the publication will become
"Technical Standart" ! "Technical Standart"  versus "Patent-Objekt-Translation-Standart".
espacenet: +/- 30.000.000 publications

CdL