Author Topic: Patent Laws (Read 12787 times)

AbbaRue · « **on:** March 05, 2008, 06:19:14 AM »

Hello Everyone:
I have some questions about Patent Laws I hope someone on this forum can answer.
The best way to ask these questions is with a hypothetical situation.

Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device:
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?
2) Could I legally include that patent in a book I have written for sale?
3) Could I place the components that make up that device in a kit you assemble yourself and sell that kit?
4) How long is a patent valid before it can be copied by others, free of legal problems?

I think the answer to these questions could be helpful to others.
I did build a device from a patent, and was considering posting my findings, but I reconsidered doing so because I don't want to get into any legal difficulties.
I have always thought a patent could be copied by anyone for test purposes as long as you don't seek to make money from it.
But perhaps to do so requires the patent holders permission.

Thanks in advance Harold.

shruggedatlas · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2008, 06:31:16 AM »

Quote from: AbbaRue on March 05, 2008, 06:19:14 AM

Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device:
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?
2) Could I legally include that patent in a book I have written for sale?
3) Could I place the components that make up that device in a kit you assemble yourself and sell that kit?
4) How long is a patent valid before it can be copied by others, free of legal problems?

In the U.S., the answers are:

1. No
2. No, not for what you are intending. It sounds like you are making an instruction manual to sell. That would constitute indirect infringement.
3. No. Again - indirect infringement.
4. 20 years after date of filing, I believe.

one · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2008, 07:47:00 AM »

Quote from: AbbaRue on March 05, 2008, 06:19:14 AM

Hello Everyone:
I have some questions about Patent Laws I hope someone on this forum can answer.
The best way to ask these questions is with a hypothetical situation.

Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device:
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?
2) Could I legally include that patent in a book I have written for sale?
3) Could I place the components that make up that device in a kit you assemble yourself and sell that kit?
4) How long is a patent valid before it can be copied by others, free of legal problems?

I think the answer to these questions could be helpful to others.
I did build a device from a patent, and was considering posting my findings, but I reconsidered doing so because I don't want to get into any legal difficulties.
I have always thought a patent could be copied by anyone for test purposes as long as you don't seek to make money from it.
But perhaps to do so requires the patent holders permission.

Thanks in advance Harold.

I don't know the exact laws but I know that alot of companies get around pattents by studyng them long enough to find a way to make them better ,
Once you can improve the idea if you believe that patents of over unity devices are a good idea you could apply for a patent on your improvements, in effect the original idea and your improvement are now yours.
You can list the original patent as " prior art " when showing your improvements .

The relative ease that a patent can be bypassed by making a change or 2 is one of the reasons that I don't think patents are a good idea for OU devices .

gary

PulsedPower · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2008, 08:55:26 AM »

You can do whatever you like if you are not in the country where the patent is issued. You cannot sell or take your product into the country where the patent is issued without running the risk of the patent holder suing you if they find out that you have used a similar idea to the one they patented.

Getting a patent is no guarantee the the device even works.

argona369 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2008, 06:14:02 PM »

Quote from: shruggedatlas on March 05, 2008, 06:31:16 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on March 05, 2008, 06:19:14 AM
Suppose I come across a US. patent of an over unity device:
1) Could I legally build a replica of that device for my own personal use and for test purposes, without the patent holders permission?

1. No

Seriously? You can?t even reproduce it
to see how it works?
what about Canada?

shruggedatlas · « **Reply #5 on:** March 06, 2008, 09:22:24 PM »

Quote from: argona369 on March 05, 2008, 06:14:02 PM

Seriously? You can?t even reproduce it
to see how it works?
what about Canada?

I don't think you can, not in the U.S. Have no idea about Canada. However, let's be realistic. If you do it at home and do not tell anyone, how's anyone going to find out.

argona369 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2008, 02:07:36 PM »

Hi Shruggedatlas

Well that?s not really the problem I was thinking about.
Say I came up with something, posted enough information for someone else to patent it.
Would they then, as the patent holder,
be able to tell me to stop all research and even hand over all materials and prototypes.

In other words , I don?t feel i should share anything that I come up with
anymore.

ken_nyus · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2008, 03:35:16 PM »

I was under the impression in the US you could build a single copy for your own use, this is not true?

capthook · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2008, 07:26:44 PM »

Quote from: argona369 on March 07, 2008, 02:07:36 PM

be able to tell me to stop all research and even hand over all materials and prototypes.

My opinion:

Patents serve a primary purpose of protecting the inventor from unlicensed sales of the device/components so as to offer a means to recoup the inventors investment in development and reward the ingenuity.

A secondary purpose is to advance technology. Many patents make reference to existing patents - basically improving on the design/function of the original device, or incorporate components of it into a new device. A separate inventor couldn't possibly make those improvements without building the original device. This is one of the reasons a patent is so detailed and includes drawings - so that it can be reproduced. (as well as showing in detail what is claimed to be protected)

So - you can certainly build it - test it - redesign it - experiment with it. You just can sell it (the patented device) or it's components (legally).

AbbaRue · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:42:20 AM »

Well there certainly are a lot of opinions on this subject.
I hope someone with legal background lets us know for sure.
The device I tried to duplicate was invented in Canada and I live in Canada as well,
but the inventer only applied for a USA patent as far as I know.
Of coarse the version I built only remotely resembles the original device and probably could be filed as a different patent.

capthook · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:05:40 AM »

http://www.uspto.gov/go/pac/doc/general/#nature

"Nature of Patent and Patent Rights
The patent is issued in the name of the United States under the seal of the United States Patent and Trademark Office, and is either signed by the Director of the USPTO or is electronically written thereon and attested by an Office official. The patent contains a grant to the patentee, and a printed copy of the specification and drawing is annexed to the patent and forms a part of it. The grant confers ?the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States? and its territories and possessions for which the term of the patent shall be generally 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application under 35 U.S.C. 120, 121 or 365(c), from the date of the earliest such application was filed, and subject to the payment of maintenance fees as provided by law. "
"Once a patent is issued, the patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO"

And if a patent is not issued in YOUR country - there is nothing to enforce (within your country) Even a WIPO ( http://www.wipo.int/portal/index.html.en ) requires a filing in EACH country you wish to have patent protection.

And even if so - if you are tinkering in your basement - extremely doubtful someones going to spend $$$ on litigation to stop you.... the "spirit" of the law is to prevent selling it....

AbbaRue · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2008, 08:35:41 AM »

Thanks again:
Here is a link to some interesting new energy collection devices,
referred to as Aetherometric Technologies.

http://www.aetherenergy.com/index.html

The Correas have quite a few patents already, check them out.
Maybe someone may even want to start a new section just focused on these ideas.

shruggedatlas · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2008, 05:30:47 PM »

Quote from: argona369 on March 07, 2008, 02:07:36 PM

Hi Shruggedatlas

Well that?s not really the problem I was thinking about.
Say I came up with something, posted enough information for someone else to patent it.
Would they then, as the patent holder,
be able to tell me to stop all research and even hand over all materials and prototypes.

In other words , I don?t feel i should share anything that I come up with
anymore.

That is a real danger, it's true. Now you would have a defense that you did publish the plans for it first. But with the timing being so close, and things on the web having a habit of dissappearing, the danger is very real that you could be locked out of your own invention.

In the end, you have to have some faith in the open source community. Lots of people extend this level of faith and good things come from it, so you should examine and see if you are perhaps a little too paranoid.

Also, the patent process is not cheap, so people just don't patent things willy-nilly. People don't just scour the web and snap up ideas en masse and patent them, like they snap up domain names.

capthook · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2008, 09:21:21 PM »

Quote from: shruggedatlas on March 11, 2008, 05:30:47 PM

Also, the patent process is not cheap, so people just don't patent things willy-nilly. People don't just scour the web and snap up ideas en masse and patent them, like they snap up domain names.

Actually - a patent is relatively inexpensive. The larger costs are for the patent lawyer you employ and the maintenance fees once granted. Doing the application yourself can eliminate the large lawyer fees but they can be very helpful in drafting your claims and dealing with the Patent Office processes so it isn't recommended unless you have experience in these matters.

Also - a preliminary patent ("patent pending") can be filed for $100. This then gives you 12 months to fully develop the device/examine the market before filing for a full patent. This provides a "date/idea of invention" to contest you made it first - but the patent expiration date (usually 20 years) will use the full application.
$100 well spent - alot of bang for your buck!

If the owner of the invention qualifies as a small entity (e.g., independent inventor, a small business, or a nonprofit organization), the filing, issue and maintenance fees are reduced by half.

Application Fees: (for a small entity)
Filing: $155
Claims:        $105
Search: $255
Examination $105
SubTotal:     $620 (due with filing)

Issuance Fee: $720 (due if patent is granted)

Total Cost:     $1340

Maintenance Fees: (small entity)
4 yr:      $465
8 yr:      $1180
12 yr:      $1955

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2007september30_2007dec17.htm

(And yes - there are "Patent wharehouse" companies that aquire then litigate as many Patents as possible. As shown - the actual Patent costs are low - and the litigation return can be high. Also - many companies patent every little thing they possibly can - think IBM, Intel etc)

CH

hartiberlin · « **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2008, 11:10:03 PM »

Patents in my view are just useless unless you have a big corporation behind you
or can sell it to a big corporation that will defend your patent in court.

All other inventors can just improve on your patent with 2 or 3 new ideas
not covered in your patent and then they will get this "better" patent.
If you then don?t have a big corporation behind you that will
battle in court against this "better" patent you are lost...

So for the small inventor patents do not bring any value at all in my view.

Also for our cause over here we better go with open source as
it will bring the small inventor much more fame and money via
public relations and advertisement offers, etc...

So you don?t need to sell anything, if you have a working prototype
which will put out free energy.

Regards, Stefan.

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Author Topic: Patent Laws (Read 12787 times)

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